Hi,

I have a tub/shower leak on the second floor, damaging first floor ceiling. I am wondering if there is a Troubleshooting FlowChart somewhere that I can follow. Here is the long version.

First floor bathroom ceiling shows signs of mildew. Cut the sheetrock and noticed trace of slow leak (joist and sub-floor decolored). Checked the p-trap servicing the upstairs tub and changed it (it was 1/3 clogged, old iron cast, tub drains good, no signs of leak around the p-trap now).

I then re-caulked the upstairs tub as I saw signs of water at the base of tub (close to drain side).

Here is what I mean by troubleshooting flow chart....

1- If p-trap is leaking, then replace/repair, done.
2- If tub is not sealed, then re-caulk, done.
3- If leak happens when tub/shower is not used, then check supply lines
4- If leak happens when shower head is running, then check diverter and/or shower head connections
5- If leak happens when down spout is running, then check diverter and/or down spout connections
6- If leak is on the cold side, then check cold valve stems
7- If leak is on the hot side, then check hot valve stems
8- If all fails, scream help, kick the tub, declare life is not fair, etc

Something like that...

One specific question, if the valve stems are bad, would they leak behind the wall? Or only if the packing nut is lose?

From what I understand, if stem seat, o-ring, washers are bad, water leaks into the tub. But what would make the water leak behind the wall? Would that be the packing assembly?

Is there a book called "plumbing for dumb software engineers" :-)

Thanks

On Wed, 24 Jul 2013 13:13:38 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

Hi,

I have a tub/shower leak on the second floor, damaging first floor ceiling. I am wondering if there is a Troubleshooting FlowChart somewhere that I can follow. Here is the long version.

First floor bathroom ceiling shows signs of mildew. Cut the sheetrock and noticed trace of slow leak (joist and sub-floor decolored). Checked the p-trap servicing the upstairs tub and changed it (it was 1/3 clogged, old iron cast, tub drains good, no signs of leak around the p-trap now).

I then re-caulked the upstairs tub as I saw signs of water at the base of tub (close to drain side).

Here is what I mean by troubleshooting flow chart....

1- If p-trap is leaking, then replace/repair, done.
2- If tub is not sealed, then re-caulk, done.
3- If leak happens when tub/shower is not used, then check supply lines
4- If leak happens when shower head is running, then check diverter and/or shower head connections
5- If leak happens when down spout is running, then check diverter and/or down spout connections
6- If leak is on the cold side, then check cold valve stems
7- If leak is on the hot side, then check hot valve stems
8- If all fails, scream help, kick the tub, declare life is not fair, etc

Something like that...

One specific question, if the valve stems are bad, would they leak behind the wall? Or only if the packing nut is lose?

From what I understand, if stem seat, o-ring, washers are bad, water leaks into the tub. But what would make the water leak behind the wall? Would that be the packing assembly?

Is there a book called "plumbing for dumb software engineers" :-)

Thanks

It the tub overflow drain aligned, not offset so that water get behind
it? Then run down the pipe instead of into the pipe?

On Wed, 24 Jul 2013 13:13:38 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

Hi,

I have a tub/shower leak on the second floor, damaging first floor ceiling. I am wondering if there is a Troubleshooting FlowChart somewhere that I can follow. Here is the long version.

First floor bathroom ceiling shows signs of mildew. Cut the sheetrock and noticed trace of slow leak (joist and sub-floor decolored). Checked the p-trap servicing the upstairs tub and changed it (it was 1/3 clogged, old iron cast, tub drains good, no signs of leak around the p-trap now).

I then re-caulked the upstairs tub as I saw signs of water at the base of tub (close to drain side).

Here is what I mean by troubleshooting flow chart....

1- If p-trap is leaking, then replace/repair, done.
2- If tub is not sealed, then re-caulk, done.
3- If leak happens when tub/shower is not used, then check supply lines
4- If leak happens when shower head is running, then check diverter and/or shower head connections
5- If leak happens when down spout is running, then check diverter and/or down spout connections
6- If leak is on the cold side, then check cold valve stems
7- If leak is on the hot side, then check hot valve stems
8- If all fails, scream help, kick the tub, declare life is not fair, etc

Something like that...

One thing you are missing. Is the seal at the drain leaking? You
must make two checks. The first just by running water, the second my
having the biggest person in the house get in and shower while you
watch from below. The weight of the person could be deflecting the
pan just enough for a leak.

On Wednesday, July 24, 2013 1:30:46 PM UTC-7, Oren wrote:

It the tub overflow drain aligned, not offset so that water get behind
it? Then run down the pipe instead of into the pipe?

One thing you are missing. Is the seal at the drain leaking? You
must make two checks. The first just by running water, the second my
having the biggest person in the house get in and shower while you
watch from below. The weight of the person could be deflecting the
pan just enough for a leak.

Sorry I couldn't quite understand the first paragraph...overflow drain aligned.
Re "drain seal", I do see the leak without any person in the tub, when either down spout or shower head is used. Also, I checked around the p-trap right under the tub drain and there is no leak around the p-trap.

That is why I was focusing on the valves. I am still looking for how the packing assembly would influence leakage to behind the wall.

On Wed, 24 Jul 2013 15:54:00 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

Sorry I couldn't quite understand the first paragraph...overflow drain aligned.
Re "drain seal", I do see the leak without any person in the tub, when either down spout or shower head is used. Also, I checked around the p-trap right under the tub drain and there is no leak around the p-trap.

That is why I was focusing on the valves. I am still looking for how the packing assembly would influence leakage to behind the wall.

Sorry. I have bad engrish some times or do not proof read what I
cackle about.

The question applies to this photo

The gasket seal at the top:

http://www.askmehelpdesk.com/attachments/plumbing/11723d1220224499-prevention-bath-tub-overflow-bath-drain.jpg

My apologies.

Oren wrote:
On Wed, 24 Jul 2013 15:54:00 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

Sorry I couldn't quite understand the first paragraph...overflow drain aligned.
Re "drain seal", I do see the leak without any person in the tub, when either down spout or shower head is used. Also, I checked around the p-trap right under the tub drain and there is no leak around the p-trap.

That is why I was focusing on the valves. I am still looking for how the packing assembly would influence leakage to behind the wall.

Sorry. I have bad engrish some times or do not proof read what I
cackle about.

The question applies to this photo

The gasket seal at the top:

http://www.askmehelpdesk.com/attachments/plumbing/11723d1220224499-prevention-bath-tub-overflow-bath-drain.jpg

My apologies.

The gasket seal at the top is only necessary if the tub water reaches
that overflow outlet. If the water never reaches that point, there would
be no leakage.
There should be a P trap somewhere in that drain line. In this case,
below the tub drain line to take care of both the drain and overflow.

--
Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
To email, remove the double zeros after @

its best to make certain the main house drain is working well or the water can back up into all sorts of wierd troubles

if there are any shelves etc in the tub area they can leak too..... check caulking its easy to overlook.

if the main drain line is 1/3rd clogged it may be better to replace the entire run to the basement.

I had REPEATED problems and my kitchen cieling came down repeatedly. over many years.
I finally replaced the 3 valve tub control with a brand new delta one handle temperature pressure control and had a plumber replace the entire tub sink drain line from the vent level to the basement.....

the old copper drain line was turning green from tiny leaks and was clogged 1/3rd to 1/2 half.....

sometimes its better to bite the bullet and just fix everything possible.

everything wears out eventually

On Wednesday, July 24, 2013 4:09:03 PM UTC-7, Oren wrote:
On Wed, 24 Jul 2013 15:54:00 -0700 (PDT), 2137main wrote:



The question applies to this photo

The gasket seal at the top:



http://www.askmehelpdesk.com/attachments/plumbing/11723d1220224499-prevention-bath-tub-overflow-bath-drain.jpg



My apologies.

Thanks Oren...since the leak happens with minimal water in the tub (about 1/2 inch), then I am ruling out the possibility of "drain overflow" including seals and alignment.

To rule out the tub shoe seals, I think I should connect a hose to the down spout and put it in the toilet bowl or vanity sink and see if leak happens.

On Wednesday, July 24, 2013 4:57:36 PM UTC-7, bob haller wrote:
its best to make certain the main house drain is working well or the water can back up into all sorts of wierd troubles



if there are any shelves etc in the tub area they can leak too..... check caulking its easy to overlook.



if the main drain line is 1/3rd clogged it may be better to replace the entire run to the basement.



I had REPEATED problems and my kitchen cieling came down repeatedly. over many years.

I finally replaced the 3 valve tub control with a brand new delta one handle temperature pressure control and had a plumber replace the entire tub sink drain line from the vent level to the basement.....



the old copper drain line was turning green from tiny leaks and was clogged 1/3rd to 1/2 half.....



sometimes its better to bite the bullet and just fix everything possible.



everything wears out eventually

If main draining system was the problem, other bathrooms, sinks would exhibit similar signs. This problem is localized to one bathroom and just from the tub, not the toilet, not the vanity sink (all connected to one 3" pipe, aka sewer line).

Can you guys focus the discussion on how a 3 handle shower valve system works. Specifically if the stem seat was bad, the water would keep running into the tub. (so I think), what if the packing nut (or any rings thereof) were bad. Would that leak the water behind the wall.

2137main:

My computer isn't allowing me to post properly for some reason. If I send my post in an e-mail to your apparant gmail address, will you get it? If not, can you just e-mail me at:

mlr;rnsu @ ilos . net

where each character in the character string mlr;rnsu is replaced with the key to the left on a standard QWERTY keyboard, or n k e l e b a y

and, take out all the blanks.

1. You need to caulk the openings made in the front wall of your tub enclosure for faucet handles, diverter and tub spout to prevent water running down the front wall during a shower and getting INTO the wall at those openings.

2. No, if those openings made for your faucet handles, diverter and tub spout are caulked, I don't care how badly worn out the parts in your faucet are, there won't be water leakage into your wall.

You say you recaulked around your tub. You should be aware that nothing sticks to old cured silicone, and you have to remove the old silicone caulk COMPLETELY from your old tiling before any new caulk will stick, and that includes new silicone caulk as well. Nothing sticks to old silicone caulk, not even new silicone caulk. So, water leakage past the silicone caulk MAY be a concern.

On Wed, 24 Jul 2013 19:22:10 -0400, willshak
wrote:

http://www.askmehelpdesk.com/attachments/plumbing/11723d1220224499-prevention-bath-tub-overflow-bath-drain.jpg

The gasket seal at the top is only necessary if the tub water reaches
that overflow outlet. If the water never reaches that point, there would
be no leakage.

I agree on the purpose of the overflow. I have seen a leak at the top
when a shower is used and water got behind the cover and leaked.

(insert long story of a crack head living there)

There should be a P trap somewhere in that drain line. In this case,
below the tub drain line to take care of both the drain and overflow.

On Wed, 24 Jul 2013 18:52:28 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

Can you guys focus the discussion on how a 3 handle shower valve system works. Specifically if the stem seat was bad, the water would keep running into the tub. (so I think), what if the packing nut (or any rings thereof) were bad. Would that leak the water behind the wall.

Hard to say or guess without a photo. If you have access and a
moisture meter - that would be a way to check.

If the seat is good, packing rope can be wrapped around the stem under
the bonnet "packing nut".

http://s19.photobucket.com/user/deansofidaho/media/Machine/Steam/Graphitestring.jpg.html