Supplying Water to Toilet from Gravity Feed Tanks
 

Hi,
I've installed a large tank in the yard, above the height of my toilet water closet. I'm filling the large tank with water from a sump pump.
Problem is this:
The gravity feed is very low pressure, so the regulator in the toilet water closet doesn't function using the gravity feed supply. However the regulator works fine when using the city supply for water.
Is there anyway to adjust the regulator in the toilet water closet to work with very low pressure water supply?

Supplying Water to Toilet from Gravity Feed Tanks
 

wrote:
Hi,
I've installed a large tank in the yard, above the height of my toilet
water closet. I'm filling the large tank with water from a sump pump.
Problem is this:
The gravity feed is very low pressure, so the regulator in the toilet
water closet doesn't function using the gravity feed supply. However the
regulator works fine when using the city supply for water.
Is there anyway to adjust the regulator in the toilet water closet to
work with very low pressure water supply?

Install a pump to increase the pressure?

Supplying Water to Toilet from Gravity Feed Tanks
 

wrote:
Hi,
I've installed a large tank in the yard, above the height of my toilet
water closet. I'm filling the large tank with water from a sump pump.
Problem is this:
The gravity feed is very low pressure, so the regulator in the toilet
water closet doesn't function using the gravity feed supply. However the
regulator works fine when using the city supply for water.
Is there anyway to adjust the regulator in the toilet water closet to
work with very low pressure water supply?

Why are you using regulator

Greg

Supplying Water to Toilet from Gravity Feed Tanks
 

gregz wrote:
wrote:
Hi,
I've installed a large tank in the yard, above the height of my toilet
water closet. I'm filling the large tank with water from a sump pump.
Problem is this:
The gravity feed is very low pressure, so the regulator in the toilet
water closet doesn't function using the gravity feed supply. However the
regulator works fine when using the city supply for water.
Is there anyway to adjust the regulator in the toilet water closet to
work with very low pressure water supply?

Why are you using regulator

Greg

I'm assuming that by "regulator" he means the "fill valve".

It "regulates" the amount of water that goes into the tank.

The problem you're running into is that all modern toilet fill valves in North America (that I know of) use the water pressure itself to shut off water flow into the toilet. Basically, that's done by sitting a rubber diaphragm over the port through which water enters the toilet tank, and exposing both sides of it to your water supply pressure. However, the area on the top of the diaphragm exposed to that pressure is larger than the area on the bottom of the diaphragm, so as long as the tank is full, there's a net force pushing the diaphragm down onto that port and preventing water leakage into the toilet tank through the diaphragm.

When you flush the toilet, the dropping float on the toilet fill valve operates through a mechancial linkage to pull a plug out of the large area side, thereby releasing the water pressure on that side, and allowing the same water pressure on the small area side to push the diaphragm up and allow water to flow into the tank.

When the float rises again, the plug is pushed back into the large area side, and as that side fills with water, the net force once again pushes the diaphragm down over the inlet port, thereby preventing further flow of water into the toilet tank.

What's happening in your case is that the tiny pressure you have operating on the difference in area isn't enough to cause the rubber diaphragm to move sufficiently to cover the inlet port to the toilet tank.

Jielin Plumbing in China manufactures a toilet tank fill valve that works on the hydrostatic pressure of the water in the tank to shut off further flow of water into the tank, so it will work with a much lower water pressure. It operates on as little as 3 psi water pressure, which is a 7 foot difference in height between the water level in your tank outside and the water level in your toilet tank.



This flush valve is Jielin model number T1205 toilet tank fill valve.

Here's Jielin's home page:

http://www.jlplumbing.com/en/

It's in English so if you click on "Products" you should find their T1205. They also have an english e-mail address on that page where you can find out who markets them in Canada or the US.

I know Waxman sells them as their Model 70-30050 toilet fill valve and Brasscraft sells them as their Model 285053 toilet fill valve. They're all the same valve, only each vendor puts their own name on it.

Here's the web site of Xin Yu Plumbing that wholesales those same fill valves for $115 for a box of 45 of them. But, they have lots of pictures of that fill valve.

Supplying Water to Toilet from Gravity Feed Tanks
 

wrote in message
...
Hi,
I've installed a large tank in the yard, above the height of my toilet
water closet. I'm filling the large tank with water from a sump pump.
Problem is this:
The gravity feed is very low pressure, so the regulator in the toilet
water closet doesn't function using the gravity feed supply. However the
regulator works fine when using the city supply for water.
Is there anyway to adjust the regulator in the toilet water closet to work
with very low pressure water supply?


Why don't you use a float valve, available to suit all pressures
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Float_valve

Supplying Water to Toilet from Gravity Feed Tanks
 

On Mon, 1 Jul 2013 05:50:01 +0200, nestork
wrote in
Re Supplying Water to Toilet from
Gravity Feed Tanks:

I think your best bet would be to use a pump to pressurize the water in
a cushion tank (that is, a tank with air trapped in the top of it), and
shut the pump off with a pressure switch.

Indeed. Something like this
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Flotec-1-2-HP-Shallow-Well-Jet-Pump-Combo-FP410515H/202246487#.UdFcrJHE09o
--
Web based forums are like subscribing to 10 different newspapers
and having to visit 10 different news stands to pickup each one.
Email list-server groups and USENET are like having all of those
newspapers delivered to your door every morning.

Supplying Water to Toilet from Gravity Feed Tanks
 

On Sunday, June 30, 2013 7:49:42 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Hi,

I've installed a large tank in the yard, above the height of my toilet water closet. I'm filling the large tank with water from a sump pump.

Problem is this:

The gravity feed is very low pressure, so the regulator in the toilet water closet doesn't function using the gravity feed supply. However the regulator works fine when using the city supply for water.

Is there anyway to adjust the regulator in the toilet water closet to work with very low pressure water supply?

I would expect you could find a toilet float valve that works with any pressure. Where are you posting from? The old school float on an arm ought to work. It's going to fill really slowly though.

http://static.ddmcdn.com/gif/toilet-...k-assembly.jpg

If you are serious about using alternative water for the toilets I suggest you go ahead and get a pump, a pressure tank, pressure switch, and a check valve. You could use fairly small components if all you are going to use it for is toilets.

Supplying Water to Toilet from Gravity Feed Tanks
 

On Monday, July 1, 2013 9:36:23 AM UTC-4, jamesgang wrote:
On Sunday, June 30, 2013 7:49:42 PM UTC-4, wrote:

Hi,



I've installed a large tank in the yard, above the height of my toilet water closet. I'm filling the large tank with water from a sump pump.



Problem is this:



The gravity feed is very low pressure, so the regulator in the toilet water closet doesn't function using the gravity feed supply. However the regulator works fine when using the city supply for water.



Is there anyway to adjust the regulator in the toilet water closet to work with very low pressure water supply?



I would expect you could find a toilet float valve that works with any pressure. Where are you posting from? The old school float on an arm ought to work. It's going to fill really slowly though.



http://static.ddmcdn.com/gif/toilet-...k-assembly.jpg



If you are serious about using alternative water for the toilets I suggest you go ahead and get a pump, a pressure tank, pressure switch, and a check valve. You could use fairly small components if all you are going to use it for is toilets.

Just curious...

Why would an old fashioned ballcock assembly work with less pressure than one of the more modern float style?

Whether the ball is down or the float is down, shouldn't whatever valve is at the top of the tube be open? I thought the valve was opened mechanically by virtue of the ball/float being in the "down" position. How does the water pressure enter into that?

Supplying Water to Toilet from Gravity Feed Tanks
 

On Monday, July 1, 2013 9:15:14 AM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Monday, July 1, 2013 9:36:23 AM UTC-4, jamesgang wrote: On Sunday, June 30, 2013 7:49:42 PM UTC-4, wrote: Hi, I've installed a large tank in the yard, above the height of my toilet water closet. I'm filling the large tank with water from a sump pump. Problem is this: The gravity feed is very low pressure, so the regulator in the toilet water closet doesn't function using the gravity feed supply. However the regulator works fine when using the city supply for water. Is there anyway to adjust the regulator in the toilet water closet to work with very low pressure water supply? I would expect you could find a toilet float valve that works with any pressure. Where are you posting from? The old school float on an arm ought to work. It's going to fill really slowly though. http://static.ddmcdn.com/gif/toilet-...k-assembly.jpg If you are serious about using alternative water for the toilets I suggest you go ahead and get a pump, a pressure tank, pressure switch, and a check valve. You could use fairly small components if all you are going to use it for is toilets. Just curious... Why would an old fashioned ballcock assembly work with less pressure than one of the more modern float style? Whether the ball is down or the float is down, shouldn't whatever valve is at the top of the tube be open? I thought the valve was opened mechanically by virtue of the ball/float being in the "down" position. How does the water pressure enter into that?

That's what I would have thought, but I have never actually tried it with low pressure water.

Derby Dad:

I expect that if the boyancy force of the float was ever used to shut off water flow into the toilet tank, then that kind of plumbing hardware went obsolete back in the 1950's.

So far as I know, with every kind of toilet fill valve that has a float, the movement of the float serves only to push or pull a plug out of a rubber diaphragm that sits over the port where water enters the toilet tank.

City water pressure is applied to both sides of a rubber diaphragm that sits directly above an opening through which water flows to enter the toilet tank. But, because that pressure acts on a larger area on the top side of that diaphragm than on the bottom side, there's a net force holding the diaphragm tightly over that opening, thereby preventing water flow out of it.

When you flush the toilet, as the water level and float drop, a mechanical linkage pulls a plug out of the large area side of the diaphragm, releasing the water pressure above the diaphragm.

The city water pressure on the small area side them pushes the diaphragm off it's seat, and water flows under the diaphragm into the toilet tank.

Once the toilet tank fills to the point where the float rises, that same mechanical linkage pushes the plug back into the diaphragm, and as the pressure builds up above the diaphragm, the net force pushes the diaphragm down over the inlet, thereby stopping the flow of water into the toilet tank.

So, the movement of the float doesn't directly control the flow of water like the movement of the stem in a cartridge does. Instead, the movement of the float is only used to plug or unplug a hole on the large area side of the diaphragm, and it's the city water pressure itself that forces the diaphragm up or down to allow or prevent water flow into the toilet tank.

The advantage of this way of doing things is that there's less chance of your basement being flooded by a runaway toilet. If the float ever leaks and becomes water logged, it loses it's buoyancy force, but it's weight (underwater) isn't sufficient to pull the plug out of the hole. With a float system controlling the water flow, a leaking float could result in a flooded house.

PS: The water supply valves on clothes washing machines and dish washers use precisely this same principle to allow the flow of hot, cold and both hot and cold water into those appliances. The only difference is that it's a brass coated steel plug with a rubber tip on it sitting inside a coil of wire that plugs or unplugs the hole in the large area side of the diaphragm. When electric power is applied to that coil of wire, the magnetic field pulls the plug out, and when the coil is de-energized, a spring pushes that plug back to plug that hole again. Still it's not the rubber tipped plug that's actually controlling the water flow; it's the movement of the rubber diaphragm caused by the net force on the diaphragm. The movement of the rubber tipped plug simply releases the pressure on the large area side of the diaphragm to get the valve to open when you want water flow. This is why, for example, you can pull the electrical plug on a washing machine, and not have the washer fill up with water. It's because it's not electrical power that's stopping water flow into the washer, it's a spring pushing a plug into place, and the citry water pressure itself is preventing flow into the washer.

Derby Dad:

I expect that if the boyancy force of the float was ever used to shut off water flow into the toilet tank, then that kind of plumbing hardware went obsolete back in the 1950's.

So far as I know, with every kind of toilet fill valve that has a float, the movement of the float serves only to push or pull a plug out of a rubber diaphragm that sits over the port where water enters the toilet tank; not to actually allow or shut off water flow.

In all toilet fill valves that I'm aware of, City water pressure is applied to both sides of a rubber diaphragm that sits directly above an opening through which water flows to enter the toilet tank. But, because that pressure acts on a larger area on the top side of that rubber diaphragm than on the bottom side, there's a net force holding the diaphragm down over that opening, thereby preventing water flow out of it.

When you flush the toilet, as the water level and float drop, a mechanical linkage pulls a plug out of the large area side of the diaphragm, releasing the water pressure above the diaphragm.

The city water pressure acting on the small area side them pushes the diaphragm up off it's seat, and water flows under the diaphragm into the toilet tank.

Once the toilet tank fills to the point where the float rises, that same mechanical linkage pushes the plug back into the diaphragm on the large area side, and as the pressure equalizes on both sides of the diaphragm, the net force pushes that diaphragm down again, thereby stopping the flow of water into the toilet tank.

So, the movement of the float doesn't directly control the flow of water like the movement of the stem in a cartridge does. Instead, the movement of the float is only used to plug or unplug a hole on the large area side of the diaphragm, and it's the city water pressure itself that forces the diaphragm up or down to allow or prevent water flow into the toilet tank.

The advantage of this way of doing things is that the water pressure acting on a diaphragm gives a much more reliable closure, and that means years of trouble free service. The float could probably be made to work, but it's just not trouble free as the rubber diaphragm.

PS: The water supply valves on clothes washing machines and dish washers use precisely this same principle to allow the flow of hot and cold water into those appliances. The only difference is that it's a brass coated steel plug with a rubber tip on it sitting inside a coil of wire that plugs or unplugs the hole in the large area side of the diaphragm. When electric power is applied to that coil of wire, the magnetic field pulls the plug out, and when the coil is de-energized, a spring pushes that plug back into place.

Still it's not the rubber tipped plug that's actually controlling the water flow; it's the movement of the rubber diaphragm caused by the net force on the diaphragm. The movement of the rubber tipped plug simply releases the pressure on the large area side of the diaphragm to get the diaphragm to pop open due to the city water pressure on the other side of it when you want water to flow.

It's this ability to stop 60 psi water from flowing without using any electrical power that's an important advantage to appliances. This is what allows a person to, say, unplug their washing machine without having water start flowing into it. Otherwise, you'd have to be burning electricity all the time your washing machine or dish washer were idle to stop water from flowing into them. As long as that spring is pushing that brass coated plug into that hole, the force on the large area side of the diaphragm is going to overcome the force on the small area side of the diaphragm and keep that diphragm sealed tightly over the water inlet to the appliance.

Supplying Water to Toilet from Gravity Feed Tanks
 

On Mon, 1 Jul 2013 05:50:01 +0200, nestork
wrote:


I think your best bet would be to use a pump to pressurize the water in
a cushion tank (that is, a tank with air trapped in the top of it), and
shut the pump off with a pressure switch.

You'll need a sight glass on the tank to ensure it's not water logged,
and a bleed valve and air vent so that you can recharge it with air if
it ever gets water logged.

'Electrical - Eaton Canada | Pressure Switches'
(http://tinyurl.com/mzbxsfz)

Eaton makes and sells a wide variety of industrial automation controls,
like pressure switches.
Virtually every house with indoor plumbing in Zambia ran off of a
gravity tank with 8-10 feet of head. The OP doesn't say how much head
he has, or what sised hose he is feeding it with. 3 feet of head
likely won't work, particularly through a 3/8 inch hose.

Supplying Water to Toilet from Gravity Feed Tanks
 

On Mon, 1 Jul 2013 17:25:33 +0200, nestork
wrote:


DerbyDad03;3086695 Wrote:

Why would an old fashioned ballcock assembly work with less pressure
than one of the more modern float style?

Whether the ball is down or the float is down, shouldn't whatever valve
is at the top of the tube be open? I thought the valve was opened
mechanically by virtue of the ball/float being in the "down" position.
How does the water pressure enter into that?

Derby Dad:

I expect that if the boyancy force of the float was ever used to shut
off water flow into the toilet tank, then that kind of plumbing hardware
went obsolete back in the 1950's.

So far as I know, with every kind of toilet fill valve that has a float,
the movement of the float serves only to push or pull a plug out of a
rubber diaphragm that sits over the port where water enters the toilet
tank.

City water pressure is applied to both sides of a rubber diaphragm that
sits directly above an opening through which water flows to enter the
toilet tank. But, because that pressure acts on a larger area on the
top side of that diaphragm than on the bottom side, there's a net force
holding the diaphragm tightly over that opening, thereby preventing
water flow out of it.

When you flush the toilet, as the water level and float drop, a
mechanical linkage pulls a plug out of the large area side of the
diaphragm, releasing the water pressure above the diaphragm.

The city water pressure on the small area side them pushes the diaphragm
off it's seat, and water flows under the diaphragm into the toilet
tank.

Once the toilet tank fills to the point where the float rises, that same
mechanical linkage pushes the plug back into the diaphragm, and as the
pressure builds up above the diaphragm, the net force pushes the
diaphragm down over the inlet, thereby stopping the flow of water into
the toilet tank.

So, the movement of the float doesn't directly control the flow of water
like the movement of the stem in a cartridge does. Instead, the
movement of the float is only used to plug or unplug a hole on the large
area side of the diaphragm, and it's the city water pressure itself that
forces the diaphragm up or down to allow or prevent water flow into the
toilet tank.

The advantage of this way of doing things is that there's less chance of
your basement being flooded by a runaway toilet. If the float ever
leaks and becomes water logged, it loses it's buoyancy force, but it's
weight (underwater) isn't sufficient to pull the plug out of the hole.
With a float system controlling the water flow, a leaking float could
result in a flooded house.

PS: The water supply valves on clothes washing machines and dish
washers use precisely this same principle to allow the flow of hot, cold
and both hot and cold water into those appliances. The only difference
is that it's a brass coated steel plug with a rubber tip on it sitting
inside a coil of wire that plugs or unplugs the hole in the large area
side of the diaphragm. When electric power is applied to that coil of
wire, the magnetic field pulls the plug out, and when the coil is
de-energized, a spring pushes that plug back to plug that hole again.
Still it's not the rubber tipped plug that's actually controlling the
water flow; it's the movement of the rubber diaphragm caused by the net
force on the diaphragm. The movement of the rubber tipped plug simply
releases the pressure on the large area side of the diaphragm to get the
valve to open when you want water flow. This is why, for example, you
can pull the electrical plug on a washing machine, and not have the
washer fill up with water. It's because it's not electrical power
that's stopping water flow into the washer, it's a spring pushing a plug
into place, and the citry water pressure itself is preventing flow into
the washer.
The ball type valves (no diaphragm) are still avaiulable, but not
easily found. Hoover makes one - I think Rona carries it.

Watts Canada makes the "governor 80" ballcock that halso contains an
anti-siphon and an overpressure release.

Kohler still makes the ball type ballcock as well., as does Mansfield.

JAG makes one sold by home despot.SKU: 1000756670

Supplying Water to Toilet from Gravity Feed Tanks
 

On Monday, July 1, 2013 11:25:33 AM UTC-4, nestork wrote:
DerbyDad03;3086695 Wrote:



Why would an old fashioned ballcock assembly work with less pressure

than one of the more modern float style?



Whether the ball is down or the float is down, shouldn't whatever valve

is at the top of the tube be open? I thought the valve was opened

mechanically by virtue of the ball/float being in the "down" position.

How does the water pressure enter into that?



Derby Dad:



I expect that if the boyancy force of the float was ever used to shut

off water flow into the toilet tank, then that kind of plumbing hardware

went obsolete back in the 1950's.



So far as I know, with every kind of toilet fill valve that has a float,

the movement of the float serves only to push or pull a plug out of a

rubber diaphragm that sits over the port where water enters the toilet

tank.



City water pressure is applied to both sides of a rubber diaphragm that

sits directly above an opening through which water flows to enter the

toilet tank. But, because that pressure acts on a larger area on the

top side of that diaphragm than on the bottom side, there's a net force

holding the diaphragm tightly over that opening, thereby preventing

water flow out of it.



When you flush the toilet, as the water level and float drop, a

mechanical linkage pulls a plug out of the large area side of the

diaphragm, releasing the water pressure above the diaphragm.



The city water pressure on the small area side them pushes the diaphragm

off it's seat, and water flows under the diaphragm into the toilet

tank.



Once the toilet tank fills to the point where the float rises, that same

mechanical linkage pushes the plug back into the diaphragm, and as the

pressure builds up above the diaphragm, the net force pushes the

diaphragm down over the inlet, thereby stopping the flow of water into

the toilet tank.



So, the movement of the float doesn't directly control the flow of water

like the movement of the stem in a cartridge does. Instead, the

movement of the float is only used to plug or unplug a hole on the large

area side of the diaphragm, and it's the city water pressure itself that

forces the diaphragm up or down to allow or prevent water flow into the

toilet tank.



The advantage of this way of doing things is that there's less chance of

your basement being flooded by a runaway toilet. If the float ever

leaks and becomes water logged, it loses it's buoyancy force, but it's

weight (underwater) isn't sufficient to pull the plug out of the hole.

With a float system controlling the water flow, a leaking float could

result in a flooded house.



PS: The water supply valves on clothes washing machines and dish

washers use precisely this same principle to allow the flow of hot, cold

and both hot and cold water into those appliances. The only difference

is that it's a brass coated steel plug with a rubber tip on it sitting

inside a coil of wire that plugs or unplugs the hole in the large area

side of the diaphragm. When electric power is applied to that coil of

wire, the magnetic field pulls the plug out, and when the coil is

de-energized, a spring pushes that plug back to plug that hole again.

Still it's not the rubber tipped plug that's actually controlling the

water flow; it's the movement of the rubber diaphragm caused by the net

force on the diaphragm. The movement of the rubber tipped plug simply

releases the pressure on the large area side of the diaphragm to get the

valve to open when you want water flow. This is why, for example, you

can pull the electrical plug on a washing machine, and not have the

washer fill up with water. It's because it's not electrical power

that's stopping water flow into the washer, it's a spring pushing a plug

into place, and the citry water pressure itself is preventing flow into

the washer.









--

nestork

Maybe he could modify a float valve to make it open easier with lower pressure. Most toilets have a overflow pipe in them as well for protection.

Supplying Water to Toilet from Gravity Feed Tanks
 

On Monday, July 1, 2013 11:25:33 AM UTC-4, nestork wrote:
DerbyDad03;3086695 Wrote:



Why would an old fashioned ballcock assembly work with less pressure

than one of the more modern float style?



Whether the ball is down or the float is down, shouldn't whatever valve

is at the top of the tube be open? I thought the valve was opened

mechanically by virtue of the ball/float being in the "down" position.

How does the water pressure enter into that?



Derby Dad:



I expect that if the boyancy force of the float was ever used to shut

off water flow into the toilet tank, then that kind of plumbing hardware

went obsolete back in the 1950's.



So far as I know, with every kind of toilet fill valve that has a float,

the movement of the float serves only to push or pull a plug out of a

rubber diaphragm that sits over the port where water enters the toilet

tank.



City water pressure is applied to both sides of a rubber diaphragm that

sits directly above an opening through which water flows to enter the

toilet tank. But, because that pressure acts on a larger area on the

top side of that diaphragm than on the bottom side, there's a net force

holding the diaphragm tightly over that opening, thereby preventing

water flow out of it.



When you flush the toilet, as the water level and float drop, a

mechanical linkage pulls a plug out of the large area side of the

diaphragm, releasing the water pressure above the diaphragm.



The city water pressure on the small area side them pushes the diaphragm

off it's seat, and water flows under the diaphragm into the toilet

tank.



Once the toilet tank fills to the point where the float rises, that same

mechanical linkage pushes the plug back into the diaphragm, and as the

pressure builds up above the diaphragm, the net force pushes the

diaphragm down over the inlet, thereby stopping the flow of water into

the toilet tank.



So, the movement of the float doesn't directly control the flow of water

like the movement of the stem in a cartridge does. Instead, the

movement of the float is only used to plug or unplug a hole on the large

area side of the diaphragm, and it's the city water pressure itself that

forces the diaphragm up or down to allow or prevent water flow into the

toilet tank.



The advantage of this way of doing things is that there's less chance of

your basement being flooded by a runaway toilet. If the float ever

leaks and becomes water logged, it loses it's buoyancy force, but it's

weight (underwater) isn't sufficient to pull the plug out of the hole.

With a float system controlling the water flow, a leaking float could

result in a flooded house.




Thanks for the explanation.

Wouldn't the overflow tube shuttle the water into the bowl where it's own weight would override the trap preventing the "flood" that you speak off?

Most of us have experienced toilet valves that have not shut off but very few of us have experienced flooded houses due to that malfunction.

Supplying Water to Toilet from Gravity Feed Tanks
 

DerbyDad03 used improper usenet message composition style by
unnecessarily full-quoting AND double-spacing:

Wouldn't the overflow tube shuttle the water ...

Did you post that during your break or lunch time at 2:39 pm from your
workplace computer at Dean Witter Financial Services in NYC?

[/quote]

Yep, water filling the toilet tank SHOULD go down the overflow tube as you say.

However, my experience is that most people never give the hole in the tank for the trip lever a second thought, and if you were to overflow most toilet tanks, the water will drain out the trip lever hole before it even gets close to the top of the overflow spout. So, in my experience, if you have a toilet tank that doesn't stop filling, make sure your overflow spout is below the elevation of the hole for your trip lever.

Most people just make sure the overflow spout is above the recommended fill line by a good inch or so. That's not enough. It needs to be above the recommended fill line, but still below the hole for the trip lever, and often the fill line and the trip lever hole are within 3/4 inch of each other, so you don't have much wiggle room.

Maybe go check your toilet.

Supplying Water to Toilet from Gravity Feed Tanks
 

nestork wrote:

Wouldn't the overflow tube shuttle the water into the bowl where it's
own weight would override the trap preventing the "flood" that you speak
off?

Most of us have experienced toilet valves that have not shut off but
very few of us have experienced flooded houses due to that malfunction.


Yep, water filling the toilet tank SHOULD go down the overflow tube as you
say.

However, my experience is that most people never give the hole in the tank
for the trip lever a second thought, and if you were to overflow most
toilet tanks, the water will drain out the trip lever hole before it even
gets close to the top of the overflow spout.

I guess your experience is unlike anyone else's experience that I have run
across. I have never seen a continuously running toilet that filled up
enough to have the water come out of the lever hole - residential or
otherwise. I guess I, and everyone else I know, has been lucky that their
overflow tube was unknowingly below the lever hole.

I hope we get some responses from members who had experienced overflow
through the lever hole. I want to feel even luckier, knowing that it is a
fairly regular occurrence.

So, in my experience, if you
have a toilet tank that doesn't stop filling, make sure your overflow
spout is below the elevation of the hole for your trip lever.

Most people just make sure the overflow spout is above the recommended
fill line by a good inch or so. That's not enough. It needs to be above
the recommended fill line, but still below the hole for the trip lever,
and often the fill line and the trip lever hole are within 3/4 inch of
each other, so you don't have much wiggle room.

Maybe go check your toilet.

Supplying Water to Toilet from Gravity Feed Tanks
 

On Mon, 1 Jul 2013 07:15:14 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Monday, July 1, 2013 9:36:23 AM UTC-4, jamesgang wrote:
On Sunday, June 30, 2013 7:49:42 PM UTC-4, wrote:

http://static.ddmcdn.com/gif/toilet-...k-assembly.jpg



If you are serious about using alternative water for the toilets I suggest you go ahead and get a pump, a pressure tank, pressure switch, and a check valve. You could use fairly small components if all you are going to use it for is toilets.

Just curious...

Why would an old fashioned ballcock assembly work with less pressure than one of the more modern float style?

Whether the ball is down or the float is down, shouldn't whatever valve is at the top of the tube be open? I thought the valve was opened mechanically by virtue of the ball/float being in the "down" position. How does the water pressure enter into that?

I agree. Good questions.

Supplying Water to Toilet from Gravity Feed Tanks
 

On Sun, 30 Jun 2013 16:49:42 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

Hi,
I've installed a large tank in the yard, above the height of my toilet water closet. I'm filling the large tank with water from a sump pump.
Problem is this:
The gravity feed is very low pressure, so the regulator in the toilet water closet doesn't function using the gravity feed supply. However the regulator works fine when using the city supply for water.
Is there anyway to adjust the regulator in the toilet water closet to work with very low pressure water supply?

What do you mean by regulator? Do you have a flushometer or
something similar?

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=flush...2&tx=117&ty=88
http://www.google.com/search?gs_rn=1...BJSJ0QG134DwBA

In the US these are used in public toilets, and in apartment buildings
in New York City. They depend on their being adequate water pressure
and there are various rules for buildings of different heights that
assure there is adequate water pressure.

Or do you have a tank in the toilet water closet, a tank that is
filled from the large tank in the yard?

When I had a flushometer, and I moved from the 4th floor to the 5th,
just 12 feet higher, my flushing got substantially worse**, (The
building had the right special equipment that this should not have
happened, an air pump to pressurize the water tank in the basement,
but the landlord was ignorant and didn't know how to make it work, So
he disconnected the electricity from the air pump, which would have
run automatically once or twice a week or maybe less often. Even
after I sent him a page from textbook)

**Worsse yet, when I was taking a shower and someone flushed a toilet
in a nearby bathroom, it drained the cold water from my shower and the
shower got too hot. So I gave up trying to take showers and for 10
years, took baths, where that was not an issue.

Can you replace the flushometer with a tank and a float valve? The
tank in the yard will fill the tank that sits on the toilet, and the
float valve inside the tank will stop the water from filling when it
reaches the right height. Then your toilet will have as much flush
power as almost any toilet I've seen. (Not counting the ones in some
motels that have extra air pressure powering the flushing)

I have the water to my toilet almost turned off. After I flush, I
can't even hear the water coming into the toilet, there is so little
of it and it's going so slow. the water pressure is so low past the
closed valve that It takes an hour for the tank to fill. But once it
does fill, it flushes just as well as ever. You don't need normal
or even less pressure if you flush from a tank, including one that
sits on the rear of the toilet, and not the water pressure in the
line.

Supplying Water to Toilet from Gravity Feed Tanks
 

On Mon, 1 Jul 2013 17:25:33 +0200, nestork
wrote:


DerbyDad03;3086695 Wrote:

Why would an old fashioned ballcock assembly work with less pressure
than one of the more modern float style?

Whether the ball is down or the float is down, shouldn't whatever valve
is at the top of the tube be open? I thought the valve was opened
mechanically by virtue of the ball/float being in the "down" position.
How does the water pressure enter into that?

Derby Dad:

I expect that if the boyancy force of the float was ever used to shut
off water flow into the toilet tank, then that kind of plumbing hardware
went obsolete back in the 1950's.

So far as I know, with every kind of toilet fill valve that has a float,
the movement of the float serves only to push or pull a plug out of a
rubber diaphragm that sits over the port where water enters the toilet
tank.

City water pressure is applied to both sides of a rubber diaphragm that
sits directly above an opening through which water flows to enter the
toilet tank. But, because that pressure acts on a larger area on the
top side of that diaphragm than on the bottom side, there's a net force
holding the diaphragm tightly over that opening, thereby preventing
water flow out of it.

When you flush the toilet, as the water level and float drop, a
mechanical linkage pulls a plug out of the large area side of the
diaphragm, releasing the water pressure above the diaphragm.

The city water pressure on the small area side them pushes the diaphragm
off it's seat, and water flows under the diaphragm into the toilet
tank.

Once the toilet tank fills to the point where the float rises, that same
mechanical linkage pushes the plug back into the diaphragm, and as the
pressure builds up above the diaphragm, the net force pushes the
diaphragm down over the inlet, thereby stopping the flow of water into
the toilet tank.

So, the movement of the float doesn't directly control the flow of water
like the movement of the stem in a cartridge does. Instead, the
movement of the float is only used to plug or unplug a hole on the large
area side of the diaphragm, and it's the city water pressure itself that
forces the diaphragm up or down to allow or prevent water flow into the
toilet tank.

No, I don't believe the city water pressure has anything to do with
closing the valve. It's the water level in the tank, which raises
the float, which is connected to the valve, that closes the valve.

Right now I have the water valve just outside one of my toilets closed
almost completely. The water barely dribbles into the tank, and the
tank water level rises so slowly it takes an hour to fill. But when
it is almost full, the float** is high enough to close the valve.

**Not a metal float on an arm but something I bought just 10 years
ago, with a plastic float just above the valve mechnaism.. The very
common brand whose name I forget.




The advantage of this way of doing things is that there's less chance of
your basement being flooded by a runaway toilet. If the float ever
leaks and becomes water logged, it loses it's buoyancy force, but it's
weight (underwater) isn't sufficient to pull the plug out of the hole.
With a float system controlling the water flow, a leaking float could
result in a flooded house.

PS: The water supply valves on clothes washing machines and dish
washers use precisely this same principle to allow the flow of hot, cold
and both hot and cold water into those appliances. The only difference
is that it's a brass coated steel plug with a rubber tip on it sitting
inside a coil of wire that plugs or unplugs the hole in the large area
side of the diaphragm. When electric power is applied to that coil of
wire, the magnetic field pulls the plug out, and when the coil is
de-energized, a spring pushes that plug back to plug that hole again.
Still it's not the rubber tipped plug that's actually controlling the
water flow; it's the movement of the rubber diaphragm caused by the net
force on the diaphragm. The movement of the rubber tipped plug simply
releases the pressure on the large area side of the diaphragm to get the
valve to open when you want water flow. This is why, for example, you
can pull the electrical plug on a washing machine, and not have the
washer fill up with water. It's because it's not electrical power
that's stopping water flow into the washer, it's a spring pushing a plug
into place, and the citry water pressure itself is preventing flow into
the washer.

Supplying Water to Toilet from Gravity Feed Tanks
 

On Mon, 1 Jul 2013 11:39:31 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:



The advantage of this way of doing things is that there's less chance of

your basement being flooded by a runaway toilet. If the float ever

leaks and becomes water logged, it loses it's buoyancy force, but it's

weight (underwater) isn't sufficient to pull the plug out of the hole.

With a float system controlling the water flow, a leaking float could

result in a flooded house.




Thanks for the explanation.

Wouldn't the overflow tube shuttle the water into the bowl where it's own weight would override the trap preventing the "flood" that you speak off?

Most of us have experienced toilet valves that have not shut off but very few of us have experienced flooded houses due to that malfunction.

Right. The water from a runaway toilet valve just runs into the
toilet bowl and out the rear of it.

Supplying Water to Toilet from Gravity Feed Tanks
 

On Sun, 30 Jun 2013 16:49:42 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

Hi,
I've installed a large tank in the yard, above the height of my toilet water closet. I'm filling the large tank with water from a sump pump.
Problem is this:
The gravity feed is very low pressure, so the regulator in the toilet water closet doesn't function using the gravity feed supply. However the regulator works fine when using the city supply for water.
Is there anyway to adjust the regulator in the toilet water closet to work with very low pressure water supply?

What do you mean by regulator? Do you have a flushometer or
something similar?

This is what a flushometer looks like, no tank, but a handle to flush
the toilet (or an infrared sensor to flush the toilet when a person
stands in front of the sensor and then leaves/ This style is becoming
more common in public and semi-public bathrooms.)
http://www.google.com/imgres?q=flush...2&tx=117&ty=88
http://www.google.com/search?gs_rn=1...BJSJ0QG134DwBA

In the US these are used in public toilets, and in apartment buildings
in New York City. They depend on their being adequate water pressure
and there are various rules for buildings of different heights that
assure there is adequate water pressure.

Or do you have a tank in the toilet water closet, a tank that is
filled from the large tank in the yard?

When I had a flushometer, and I moved from the 4th floor to the 5th,
just 12 feet higher, my flushing got substantially worse**, (The
building had the right special equipment that this should not have
happened, an air pump to pressurize the water tank in the basement,
but the landlord was ignorant and didn't know how to make it work, So
he disconnected the electricity from the air pump, which would have
run automatically once or twice a week or maybe less often. Even
after I sent him a page from textbook)

**Worsse yet, when I was taking a shower and someone flushed a toilet
in a nearby bathroom, it drained the cold water from my shower and the
shower got too hot. So I gave up trying to take showers and for 10
years, took baths, where that was not an issue.

Can you replace the flushometer with a tank and a float valve? The
tank in the yard will fill the tank that sits on the toilet, and the
float valve inside the tank will stop the water from filling when it
reaches the right height. Then your toilet will have as much flush
power as almost any toilet I've seen. (Not counting the ones in some
motels that have extra air pressure powering the flushing)

I have the water to my toilet almost turned off. After I flush, I
can't even hear the water coming into the toilet, there is so little
of it and it's going so slow. the water pressure is so low past the
closed valve that It takes an hour for the tank to fill. But once it
does fill, it flushes just as well as ever. You don't need normal
or even less pressure if you flush from a tank, including one that
sits on the rear of the toilet, and not the water pressure in the
line.

No, it really is the water pressure. Otherwise, why wouldn't your washing machine start filling up with water the instant you unplugged it?

I think you'd get a lot better performance out of that fill valve if you replaced the rubber diaphragm in it. I have seen toilets do that before, but that was before I knew anything about plumbing. Still I would try replacing the diaphragm in that fill valve and see if that helps.

If you believe the closure is caused by the water level in the tank raising the float, then wouldn't it make sense for flush valves to have a large float at the end of a long float arm to generate the maximum closure force. Why, for example, would designers make a fill valve with very short float arms, such as in the fill valve below:



And, wouldn't it make sense that a fill valve like the one above wouldn't work nearly as well as something like this:



In fact, you don't need much force to push a plug into or out of a rubber diaphragm, and so there's no real advantage in having a large float and a long float arm. If it was the buoyancy force of the float that shut off the water flow, then EVERY toilet fill valve would necessarily have to have a big float and a long float arm to produce the force necessary to stop the water flow.

Let's do it:
For a 3/8" ID tube, I calculate an area of 0.11045 square inches.
With a water pressure of 60 PSIG, the force of the water would be 6.268 pounds of force.
Assuming a 4 inch diameter float, the volume of the float is (4/3)pi(r^3) or 33.51 cubic inches.
The weight of a cubic foot of water is 62.4 pounds, so 33.51 cubic inches weighs 1.21 pounds.
But, presuming only half the float is submerged in water, the buoyancy force is only 0.6 pounds, so you'd need that float acting at the end of a 10:1 lever in order to produce enough force to shut off the water flow. So, you probably could generate enough force with a float and float arm to shut off the water flow, and I expect that's how early ball cocks worked. However, so far as I know, even the ballcocks with large floats and long float arms used the buoyancy force of the float simply to plug a hole in a rubber diaphragm so that the water pressure itself forces the diaphragm down to shut off the flow of water into the toilet tank.

Supplying Water to Toilet from Gravity Feed Tanks
 

Fortunately, yes, the excess water goes down the drain.

I had a water valve go bad, on my washing machine. Fortunately for me, the water (hot, sadly so) went down the drain. My natural gas bill went up that month.
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..
..
"DerbyDad03" wrote in message ...


With a float system controlling the water flow, a leaking float could

result in a flooded house.




Thanks for the explanation.

Wouldn't the overflow tube shuttle the water into the bowl where it's own weight would override the trap preventing the "flood" that you speak off?

Most of us have experienced toilet valves that have not shut off but very few of us have experienced flooded houses due to that malfunction.

Supplying Water to Toilet from Gravity Feed Tanks
 

Washing machine valve is closed, unless the
power activates the solenoid which pulls the
valve open. I've never tried a washing machine
valve with low pressure cistern water. Would be
a fun test for someone to do and let us know
what was learned.
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..
..
"nestork" wrote in message ...

No, it really is the water pressure. Otherwise,
why wouldn't your washing machine start filling
up with water the instant you unplugged it?

Supplying Water to Toilet from Gravity Feed Tanks
 

On Tue, 2 Jul 2013 08:09:40 +0200, nestork
wrote:


micky;3087051 Wrote:

No, I don't believe the city water pressure has anything to do with
closing the valve. It's the water level in the tank, which raises
the float, which is connected to the valve, that closes the valve.


No, it really is the water pressure. Otherwise, why wouldn't your
washing machine start filling up with water the instant you unplugged
it?

Or turned it off, for that matter. Because the default position for
washing machine valves is off, and the water pressure is not enough to
make them open***. They only open when their solenoids get 110 volts
from the washing machine timer. ***It's easy enough to make a valve
that even very high water pressure will not push open. Just have the
water pressure at right angles to the valve plunger travel.

And, I hate to be harsh but your analogy gives me no faith in your
understanding of toilets. Washing machines are not toilets. Toilets
have no electricity, so they have to use a different system**. For
them, the default position when the tank is empty or partially full of
water is an open valve. No electricity needed to open it. To close
it, it's the water level, which raises the float which is connected
to the valve. This is true for either a long arm float or a cup
float. No electricity needed to close it.

**Or since toilets came first, "so washing machines can use
electricity to do things toilets can't do."

Right now I have the water valve just outside one of my toilets closed
almost completely. The water barely dribbles into the tank, and the
tank water level rises so slowly it takes an hour to fill. But when
it is almost full, the float** is high enough to close the valve.

**Not a metal float on an arm but something I bought just 10 years
ago, with a plastic float just above the valve mechnaism.. The very
common brand whose name I forget.


I think you'd get a lot better performance out of that fill valve if you

How can I get better performance? It works fine. The water was
turned off for other reasons.

replaced the rubber diaphragm in it.

I don't know that it has a *rubber* diaphragm, but who do you think
sells one? Not Fluidmaster, that's for sure. (That's the brand
name I could't think of.)

If you mean replace the rubber diaphragm in a long arm float ball
cock, if I had one that worked as well as my current one does, there's
be no point in replacing it's diaphragm either.

I have seen toilets do that
before, but that was before I knew anything about plumbing. Still I
would try replacing the diaphragm in that fill valve and see if that
helps.

Helps what? It works fine.

If you believe the closure is caused by the water level in the tank
raising the float, then wouldn't it make sense for flush valves to have
a large float at the end of a long float arm to generate the maximum
closure force.

It would make sense if the ones with short arms didn't work, but they
do. (And they seem to last as long or longer than long arm ball
cocks. The house is 34 years old. One Melarc failed about 3 years
ago and it's fluidmaster replacement makes so much noise while i'm
cooking or eating in the next room that i'm going to replace it with
that other brand (and save the used one for another toilet) Another
one sort of failed a few months ago, after at least 20 years.
Sometimes the float doesnt' fall down. I was about to replace it
when it started working again. I forget the history of the third
one.)

Why, for example, would designers make a fill valve with
very short float arms, such as in the fill valve below:

[image:
http://0.tqn.com/d/homerepair/1/0/R/...-ballcock.jpg]

Because it's more compact, takes less storage space, and can be
shipped in one smaller box, and doesn't need assembly like the long
arm ball cock.

And, wouldn't it make sense that a fill valve like the one above
wouldn't work nearly as well as something like this:

It might make sense but it's not true. Not everything that makes
sense is actually true.

[image:
http://0.tqn.com/d/homerepair/1/0/o/...k-plastic.jpg]

In fact, you don't need much force to push a plug into or out of a
rubber diaphragm, and so there's no real advantage in having a large
float and a long float arm.

So you agree with me?

If it was the buoyancy force of the float
that shut off the water flow, then EVERY toilet fill valve would have a
float the size of a large pumpkin on the end of a two foot long float
arm because that's what would work best.

For a particular meaning of "best". The Brooklyn Bridge turned out
to be overdesigned for the horses and wagons it carried at the start.
But it was still a better design since when cars and big trucks came
along, the Brooklyn Bridge was strong enough to hold them. (not sure
aobut other bridges built shortly after that one.)

But the situation in the toilet stays the same. The water doesn't
get any heavier, nor does the air, year after year.


BTW, my house came with long arm floats, and they did sell
replacements of the same design the first time a valve started leaking
even when the water level was high. I replaced it with a short arm
float style instead because it had a bayonet mount. After I replaced
it once, using a wrench on the big nut below the tank, the next times
it would only take 30 seconds, not counting turning the water off and
on. Unfortuately for me, by the time it broke the next time, Melarc
brand was not for sale and all there was was Fluidmaster, which I
think had the bayonet mount but it wasn't compatible with the Melarc
bayonet. So eventually I decided to buy some Fluidmaster bayonet
mount in advance, but by that time Fluidmaster was height-adjustible
(see the spiral threads in your firsr jpg file) and had no bayonet
mount at all. That does annoy me that they had a good idea and got
rid of it (unless maybe it wasn't a good idea. maybe it leaked) But
the long-arm ball cock doesn't have, never had, the bayonet mount
either.

Supplying Water to Toilet from Gravity Feed Tanks
 

On Tue, 2 Jul 2013 09:05:26 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

Washing machine valve is closed, unless the
power activates the solenoid which pulls the
valve open. I've never tried a washing machine
valve with low pressure cistern water. Would be
a fun test for someone to do and let us know
what was learned.

I havent' done it, but it would fill fine. The part of the spin cycle
where the water sprays (to rinse away the left over suds) would not
work right in the machine I have. The water wouldn't have enough
pressure to spray and would just wet the clothes again, a little.

Christopher A. Young

Supplying Water to Toilet from Gravity Feed Tanks
 

On 07/01/2013 08:25 AM, nestork wrote:
DerbyDad03;3086695 Wrote:

Why would an old fashioned ballcock assembly work with less pressure
than one of the more modern float style?

Whether the ball is down or the float is down, shouldn't whatever valve
is at the top of the tube be open? I thought the valve was opened
mechanically by virtue of the ball/float being in the "down" position.
How does the water pressure enter into that?

Derby Dad:

I expect that if the boyancy force of the float was ever used to shut
off water flow into the toilet tank, then that kind of plumbing hardware
went obsolete back in the 1950's.

So far as I know, with every kind of toilet fill valve that has a float,
the movement of the float serves only to push or pull a plug out of a
rubber diaphragm that sits over the port where water enters the toilet
tank.

City water pressure is applied to both sides of a rubber diaphragm that
sits directly above an opening through which water flows to enter the
toilet tank. But, because that pressure acts on a larger area on the
top side of that diaphragm than on the bottom side, there's a net force
holding the diaphragm tightly over that opening, thereby preventing
water flow out of it.

When you flush the toilet, as the water level and float drop, a
mechanical linkage pulls a plug out of the large area side of the
diaphragm, releasing the water pressure above the diaphragm.

The city water pressure on the small area side them pushes the diaphragm
off it's seat, and water flows under the diaphragm into the toilet
tank.

Once the toilet tank fills to the point where the float rises, that same
mechanical linkage pushes the plug back into the diaphragm, and as the
pressure builds up above the diaphragm, the net force pushes the
diaphragm down over the inlet, thereby stopping the flow of water into
the toilet tank.

So, the movement of the float doesn't directly control the flow of water
like the movement of the stem in a cartridge does. Instead, the
movement of the float is only used to plug or unplug a hole on the large
area side of the diaphragm, and it's the city water pressure itself that
forces the diaphragm up or down to allow or prevent water flow into the
toilet tank.

The advantage of this way of doing things is that there's less chance of
your basement being flooded by a runaway toilet. If the float ever
leaks and becomes water logged, it loses it's buoyancy force, but it's
weight (underwater) isn't sufficient to pull the plug out of the hole.
With a float system controlling the water flow, a leaking float could
result in a flooded house.

PS: The water supply valves on clothes washing machines and dish
washers use precisely this same principle to allow the flow of hot, cold
and both hot and cold water into those appliances. The only difference
is that it's a brass coated steel plug with a rubber tip on it sitting
inside a coil of wire that plugs or unplugs the hole in the large area
side of the diaphragm. When electric power is applied to that coil of
wire, the magnetic field pulls the plug out, and when the coil is
de-energized, a spring pushes that plug back to plug that hole again.
Still it's not the rubber tipped plug that's actually controlling the
water flow; it's the movement of the rubber diaphragm caused by the net
force on the diaphragm. The movement of the rubber tipped plug simply
releases the pressure on the large area side of the diaphragm to get the
valve to open when you want water flow. This is why, for example, you
can pull the electrical plug on a washing machine, and not have the
washer fill up with water. It's because it's not electrical power
that's stopping water flow into the washer, it's a spring pushing a plug
into place, and the citry water pressure itself is preventing flow into
the washer.


Excellent description, thanks Nestork. I ran into this problem once
when trying to tie a drip irrigation system into a rain barrel, as most
of the water timers relied on high pressure to open.

Fortunately I found an old rain-bird unit that used a ball valve, which,
despite needing a lot more energy, worked with the low pressure system
(and that is one of the benefits of the high pressure one; they can work
on a 9V battery just fine instead of the 4-C cells I needed with the
ball valve unit.

Jon

Supplying Water to Toilet from Gravity Feed Tanks
 

Question: Would a washing machine valve
flow water (like a toilet valve) if the supply
pressure were low, from a cistern? Does
a washing machine valve require water
pressure to close, like toilet valves in the
original post?

Please don't leave my name below your
text, unless you're going to have your name
changed to Christopher A. Young.
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..
..
"micky" wrote in message ...
On Tue, 2 Jul 2013 09:05:26 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

Washing machine valve is closed, unless the
power activates the solenoid which pulls the
valve open. I've never tried a washing machine
valve with low pressure cistern water. Would be
a fun test for someone to do and let us know
what was learned.

I havent' done it, but it would fill fine. The part of the spin cycle
where the water sprays (to rinse away the left over suds) would not
work right in the machine I have. The water wouldn't have enough
pressure to spray and would just wet the clothes again, a little.

Christopher A. Young

Supplying Water to Toilet from Gravity Feed Tanks
 

On Tuesday, July 2, 2013 9:26:48 AM UTC-4, micky wrote:
On Tue, 2 Jul 2013 09:05:26 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"

wrote:



Washing machine valve is closed, unless the

power activates the solenoid which pulls the

valve open. I've never tried a washing machine

valve with low pressure cistern water. Would be

a fun test for someone to do and let us know

what was learned.



I havent' done it, but it would fill fine. The part of the spin cycle

where the water sprays (to rinse away the left over suds) would not

work right in the machine I have. The water wouldn't have enough

pressure to spray and would just wet the clothes again, a little.



Christopher A. Young

I'm not sure that is true. Some devices like washers with mechanically timed cycles do not stop the timer until the water is full. Rather they have enough time in the cycle to permit it to fill and the fill is then shut off by a level sensor. In other words the timer keeps on ticking while it's filling. If the fill takes too long the cycle will pass.

Supplying Water to Toilet from Gravity Feed Tanks
 

On Tuesday, July 2, 2013 9:36:09 AM UTC-4, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Question: Would a washing machine valve

flow water (like a toilet valve) if the supply

pressure were low, from a cistern? Does

a washing machine valve require water

pressure to close, like toilet valves in the

original post?



Please don't leave my name below your

text, unless you're going to have your name

changed to Christopher A. Young.

.

Christopher A. Young

Learn more about Jesus

www.lds.org

.

.

"micky" wrote in message ...

On Tue, 2 Jul 2013 09:05:26 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"

wrote:



Washing machine valve is closed, unless the

power activates the solenoid which pulls the

valve open. I've never tried a washing machine

valve with low pressure cistern water. Would be

a fun test for someone to do and let us know

what was learned.



I havent' done it, but it would fill fine. The part of the spin cycle

where the water sprays (to rinse away the left over suds) would not

work right in the machine I have. The water wouldn't have enough

pressure to spray and would just wet the clothes again, a little.



Christopher A. Young

Then learn how to stop top posting.

Supplying Water to Toilet from Gravity Feed Tanks
 

nestork wrote:
DerbyDad03;3086695 Wrote:

Why would an old fashioned ballcock assembly work with less pressure
than one of the more modern float style?

Whether the ball is down or the float is down, shouldn't whatever
valve is at the top of the tube be open? I thought the valve was
opened mechanically by virtue of the ball/float being in the "down"
position. How does the water pressure enter into that?

Derby Dad:

I expect that if the boyancy force of the float was ever used to shut
off water flow into the toilet tank, then that kind of plumbing
hardware went obsolete back in the 1950's.

So far as I know, with every kind of toilet fill valve that has a
float, the movement of the float serves only to push or pull a plug
out of a rubber diaphragm that sits over the port where water enters
the toilet tank.

The newer valves turn off quickly at the end because of how the valve works. The
old fashioned valves turned off gradually as the higher water listing the float
arm pushed harder and harder to push the valve seat closed against the water
pressure. A whistle noise would frequently occur near the end of the fill cycle.

Those old valves don't depend on high water pressure to open the valve like the
old ones.

Supplying Water to Toilet from Gravity Feed Tanks
 

On 7/1/2013 9:25 AM, nestork wrote:

it's the city water pressure itself that
forces the diaphragm up or down to allow or prevent water flow into the
toilet tank.

PS: The water supply valves on clothes washing machines and dish
washers use precisely this same principle to allow the flow of hot, cold
and both hot and cold water into those appliances.

I agree it is real common.

Is there a name for that type of mechanism?

Supplying Water to Toilet from Gravity Feed Tanks
 

On Tue, 2 Jul 2013 06:43:52 -0700 (PDT), jamesgang
wrote:

On Tuesday, July 2, 2013 9:36:09 AM UTC-4, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Question: Would a washing machine valve

flow water (like a toilet valve) if the supply

pressure were low, from a cistern? Does

a washing machine valve require water

pressure to close, like toilet valves in the

original post?



Please don't leave my name below your

text, unless you're going to have your name

changed to Christopher A. Young.

.

Christopher A. Young

Learn more about Jesus

www.lds.org

.

.

"micky" wrote in message ...

On Tue, 2 Jul 2013 09:05:26 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"

wrote:



Washing machine valve is closed, unless the

power activates the solenoid which pulls the

valve open. I've never tried a washing machine

valve with low pressure cistern water. Would be

a fun test for someone to do and let us know

what was learned.



I havent' done it, but it would fill fine. The part of the spin cycle

where the water sprays (to rinse away the left over suds) would not

work right in the machine I have. The water wouldn't have enough

pressure to spray and would just wet the clothes again, a little.



Christopher A. Young

Then learn how to stop top posting.

Just what I would have said.

Supplying Water to Toilet from Gravity Feed Tanks
 

On Tue, 2 Jul 2013 06:43:25 -0700 (PDT), jamesgang
wrote:

On Tuesday, July 2, 2013 9:26:48 AM UTC-4, micky wrote:
On Tue, 2 Jul 2013 09:05:26 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"

wrote:



Washing machine valve is closed, unless the

power activates the solenoid which pulls the

valve open. I've never tried a washing machine

valve with low pressure cistern water. Would be

a fun test for someone to do and let us know

what was learned.



I havent' done it, but it would fill fine. The part of the spin cycle

where the water sprays (to rinse away the left over suds) would not

work right in the machine I have. The water wouldn't have enough

pressure to spray and would just wet the clothes again, a little.



Christopher A. Young

I'm not sure that is true. Some devices like washers with mechanically timed cycles do not stop the timer until the water is full. Rather they have enough time in the cycle to permit it to fill and the fill is then shut off by a level sensor. In other words the timer keeps on ticking while it's filling. If the fill takes too long the cycle will pass.

I could test this by turning the water off mid-fill, but that would
only show how my one model was working, so I'm not going to bother.

I could also look at the diagram to see if the level switch interrupts
the power to the timer motor, but the diagram is on the back of the
washing machine, inside the removeable panel iirc. (My machine is 34
years old so it doesn't have a front that comes off. )

I hope I remember to look next time I have the panel off.

I also don't have much of a feel for how fast the machine would fill
from a cistern, and it depends a lot on how high up the cistern is.
On the roof of a one-story house, two stories, my summer place in
Newport that is 6 stories tall?

Supplying Water to Toilet from Gravity Feed Tanks
 

On Tue, 2 Jul 2013 09:36:09 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

Question: Would a washing machine valve
flow water (like a toilet valve) if the supply
pressure were low, from a cistern?

Yes, but at a low rate.

Does
a washing machine valve require water
pressure to close, like toilet valves in the
original post?

No, washing machine valves close when there is no power applied to
them. They have a spring, and it's probably pretty strong given the
thud that can sound through all the (cold water?) pipes in the house
when the valve closes suddenly.

Please don't leave my name below your
text, unless you're going to have your name
changed to Christopher A. Young.
.
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
When we asked you to stop top-posting, you ignored us.
.
"micky" wrote in message ...
On Tue, 2 Jul 2013 09:05:26 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

Washing machine valve is closed, unless the
power activates the solenoid which pulls the
valve open. I've never tried a washing machine
valve with low pressure cistern water. Would be
a fun test for someone to do and let us know
what was learned.

I havent' done it, but it would fill fine. The part of the spin cycle
where the water sprays (to rinse away the left over suds) would not
work right in the machine I have. The water wouldn't have enough
pressure to spray and would just wet the clothes again, a little.

Christopher A. Young

I think it's just called a "diaphragm valve". There are mechanical diaphragm valves, like on a toilet tank ballcock, and electrical diaphragm valves, like on a washing machine's water mixing valve.

I think all washers now have a pressure switch in the console. The water filling the machine also compresses air in a vertical tube under the pressure switch. When the water level is at the point where the washer is full, the pressure switch trips and diverts power to the timer. The timer than starts the motor turning one way or the other to start the agitate cycle.