I am about to install an electric range/oven and I need help with the wiring
requirements. This is for a late 1950's or early 1960's house. The house
has a 100 amp service panel that was installed in 2002.

Up until today, the house had an electric wall oven and a separate built-in
4-burner electric countertop cooking range. Both were broken and I removed
both of them today along with the cabinets that went with them.

My plan is to replace these two appliances with a single electric
freestanding range/oven, and I want to install that in the morning. The
electric range/oven that I am putting in was given to me, and it is a GE
Model JBP23GV1AD that is in excellent condition. It came with a 3-prong,
3-wire (not a 4-wire), power cord already attached to it.

Unfortunately, after taking out the original two appliances today, I
realized that the existing wiring is probably not going to be re-usable for
the new combined electric range/oven. The original electric wall oven and
electric countertop range were on two separate circuits. Each circuit
is/was on its own separate 30-amp breaker, and the wiring for each appears
to be cloth-covered 10/3 wire.

The only link that I could find regarding the manual for the GE Model
JBP23GV1AD that I am installing is:

http://www.geappliances.com/search/o...fs/49-8588.PDF .

Some of the wiring information is on Page 31 and 31 of that document.

I couldn't find the amperage/current requirements in the manual, so I called
GE customer service. They said this range/oven requires a dedicated 40 amp
circuit.


So, here are the questions/issues that I would like to figure out:

1) I assume that the two existing 30-amp 10/3-wire dedicated circuits can't
be re-used with the new (used) stove that I am now installing. Is that
correct?

2) I can fairly easily run a new dedicated circuit for the new range/oven.
It's fairly easy because the electric service panel is in the full
unfinished basement, and I can run the new circuit where either of the old
ones are already located -- across the ceiling and up through the floor
directly to the new range/oven. The total run is less than 60 feet
(probably closer to 50 feet). What size wire should I run and what size
breaker should I use?

3) I assume that I can use a 40-amp breaker and use #8 wire for that, since
the range/oven I have now is a 40-amp appliance (according to GE). But, if
I later replace this electric range/oven with a new one, I am guessing that
it may be a 50-amp range/oven since that's what most of them seem to be
after a quick check on the Internet. So, would it be smarter to just run a
50-amp circuit now (which I assume means a 50-amp breaker and #6 wire) -- is
that correct?

4) And, finally, do I need to (or should I) do a 4-wire hook-up with a
4-prong plug, or is the current 3-wire/3-prong plug sufficient? In either
case (whether I use the existing 3-prong or a new 4-prong plug), is the new
dedicated circuit wire type the same? -- meaning either 8/3 (40-amp) or 6/3
(50-amp) with ground?

Thanks.

On 6/6/2013 9:58 PM, TomR wrote:
I am about to install an electric range/oven and I need help with the
wiring requirements. This is for a late 1950's or early 1960's
house. The house has a 100 amp service panel that was installed in 2002.

Up until today, the house had an electric wall oven and a separate
built-in 4-burner electric countertop cooking range. Both were broken
and I removed both of them today along with the cabinets that went
with them.

My plan is to replace these two appliances with a single electric
freestanding range/oven, and I want to install that in the morning.
The electric range/oven that I am putting in was given to me, and it
is a GE Model JBP23GV1AD that is in excellent condition. It came with
a 3-prong, 3-wire (not a 4-wire), power cord already attached to it.

Unfortunately, after taking out the original two appliances today, I
realized that the existing wiring is probably not going to be
re-usable for the new combined electric range/oven. The original
electric wall oven and electric countertop range were on two separate
circuits. Each circuit is/was on its own separate 30-amp breaker, and
the wiring for each appears to be cloth-covered 10/3 wire.

The only link that I could find regarding the manual for the GE Model
JBP23GV1AD that I am installing is:

http://www.geappliances.com/search/o...fs/49-8588.PDF .

Some of the wiring information is on Page 31 and 31 of that document.

I couldn't find the amperage/current requirements in the manual, so I
called GE customer service. They said this range/oven requires a
dedicated 40 amp circuit.


So, here are the questions/issues that I would like to figure out:

1) I assume that the two existing 30-amp 10/3-wire dedicated circuits
can't be re-used with the new (used) stove that I am now installing.
Is that correct?
Correct

2) I can fairly easily run a new dedicated circuit for the new
range/oven. It's fairly easy because the electric service panel is in
the full unfinished basement, and I can run the new circuit where
either of the old ones are already located -- across the ceiling and
up through the floor directly to the new range/oven. The total run is
less than 60 feet (probably closer to 50 feet). What size wire should
I run and what size breaker should I use?
8/3 copper with ground (3 insulated plus bare ground) on a 40 amp double
pole breaker

3) I assume that I can use a 40-amp breaker and use #8 wire for that,
since the range/oven I have now is a 40-amp appliance (according to
GE). But, if I later replace this electric range/oven with a new one,
I am guessing that it may be a 50-amp range/oven since that's what
most of them seem to be after a quick check on the Internet. So,
would it be smarter to just run a 50-amp circuit now (which I assume
means a 50-amp breaker and #6 wire) -- is that correct?
correct, and a good idea

4) And, finally, do I need to (or should I) do a 4-wire hook-up with a
4-prong plug, or is the current 3-wire/3-prong plug sufficient? In
either case (whether I use the existing 3-prong or a new 4-prong
plug), is the new dedicated circuit wire type the same? -- meaning
either 8/3 (40-amp) or 6/3 (50-amp) with ground?
The new cable will probably be type nm (Romex). You do want to install a
50 amp range outlet, and new 4 wire cord set on the range. When you
install the cord set, you need to remove the jumper that currently
bridges the neutral (white wire) and the frame of the range.

Thanks.

On Jun 6, 8:58*pm, "TomR" wrote:
I am about to install an electric range/oven and I need help with the wiring
requirements. *This is for a late 1950's or early 1960's house. *The house
has a 100 amp service panel that was installed in 2002.

Up until today, the house had an electric wall oven and a separate built-in
4-burner electric countertop cooking range. *Both were broken and I removed
both of them today along with the cabinets that went with them.

My plan is to replace these two appliances with a single electric
freestanding range/oven, and I want to install that in the morning. *The
electric range/oven that I am putting in was given to me, and it is a GE
Model JBP23GV1AD that is in excellent condition. *It came with a 3-prong,
3-wire (not a 4-wire), power cord already attached to it.

Unfortunately, after taking out the original two appliances today, I
realized that the existing wiring is probably not going to be re-usable for
the new combined electric range/oven. *The original electric wall oven and
electric countertop range were on two separate circuits. *Each circuit
is/was on its own separate 30-amp breaker, and the wiring for each appears
to be cloth-covered 10/3 wire.

The only link that I could find regarding the manual for the GE Model
JBP23GV1AD that I am installing is:

http://www.geappliances.com/search/o...fs/49-8588.PDF.

Some of the wiring information is on Page 31 and 31 of that document.

I couldn't find the amperage/current requirements in the manual, so I called
GE customer service. *They said this range/oven requires a dedicated 40 amp
circuit.

So, here are the questions/issues that I would like to figure out:

1) I assume that the two existing 30-amp 10/3-wire dedicated circuits can't
be re-used with the new (used) stove that I am now installing. *Is that
correct?

2) I can fairly easily run a new dedicated circuit for the new range/oven..
It's fairly easy because the electric service panel is in the full
unfinished basement, and I can run the new circuit where either of the old
ones are already located -- across the ceiling and up through the floor
directly to the new range/oven. * The total run is less than 60 feet
(probably closer to 50 feet). *What size wire should I run and what size
breaker should I use?

3) I assume that I can use a 40-amp breaker and use #8 wire for that, since
the range/oven I have now is a 40-amp appliance (according to GE). *But, if
I later replace this electric range/oven with a new one, I am guessing that
it may be a 50-amp range/oven since that's what most of them seem to be
after a quick check on the Internet. *So, would it be smarter to just run a
50-amp circuit now (which I assume means a 50-amp breaker and #6 wire) -- is
that correct?

4) And, finally, do I need to (or should I) do a 4-wire hook-up with a
4-prong plug, or is the current 3-wire/3-prong plug sufficient? *In either
case (whether I use the existing 3-prong or a new 4-prong plug), is the new
dedicated circuit wire type the same? -- meaning either 8/3 (40-amp) or 6/3
(50-amp) with ground?

Thanks.

Do you have a 50Amp breaker for the panel? Everything else you say
seems reasonable, I would go with the 50A circuit and breaker and 4-
prong plug/socket for future upgrading.

"RBM" wrote in message
...
On 6/6/2013 9:58 PM, TomR wrote:
I am about to install an electric range/oven and I need help with the
wiring requirements. This is for a late 1950's or early 1960's house.
The house has a 100 amp service panel that was installed in 2002.

Up until today, the house had an electric wall oven and a separate
built-in 4-burner electric countertop cooking range. Both were broken
and I removed both of them today along with the cabinets that went with
them.

My plan is to replace these two appliances with a single electric
freestanding range/oven, and I want to install that in the morning. The
electric range/oven that I am putting in was given to me, and it is a GE
Model JBP23GV1AD that is in excellent condition. It came with a 3-prong,
3-wire (not a 4-wire), power cord already attached to it.

Unfortunately, after taking out the original two appliances today, I
realized that the existing wiring is probably not going to be re-usable
for the new combined electric range/oven. The original electric wall
oven and electric countertop range were on two separate circuits. Each
circuit is/was on its own separate 30-amp breaker, and the wiring for
each appears to be cloth-covered 10/3 wire.

The only link that I could find regarding the manual for the GE Model
JBP23GV1AD that I am installing is:

http://www.geappliances.com/search/o...fs/49-8588.PDF .

Some of the wiring information is on Page 31 and 31 of that document.

I couldn't find the amperage/current requirements in the manual, so I
called GE customer service. They said this range/oven requires a
dedicated 40 amp circuit.


So, here are the questions/issues that I would like to figure out:

1) I assume that the two existing 30-amp 10/3-wire dedicated circuits
can't be re-used with the new (used) stove that I am now installing. Is
that correct?

Correct

2) I can fairly easily run a new dedicated circuit for the new
range/oven. It's fairly easy because the electric service panel is in the
full unfinished basement, and I can run the new circuit where either of
the old ones are already located -- across the ceiling and up through the
floor directly to the new range/oven. The total run is less than 60 feet
(probably closer to 50 feet). What size wire should I run and what size
breaker should I use?

8/3 copper with ground (3 insulated plus bare ground) on a 40 amp double
pole breaker

3) I assume that I can use a 40-amp breaker and use #8 wire for that,
since the range/oven I have now is a 40-amp appliance (according to GE).
But, if I later replace this electric range/oven with a new one, I am
guessing that it may be a 50-amp range/oven since that's what most of
them seem to be after a quick check on the Internet. So, would it be
smarter to just run a 50-amp circuit now (which I assume means a 50-amp
breaker and #6 wire) -- is that correct?

correct, and a good idea

4) And, finally, do I need to (or should I) do a 4-wire hook-up with a
4-prong plug, or is the current 3-wire/3-prong plug sufficient? In
either case (whether I use the existing 3-prong or a new 4-prong plug),
is the new dedicated circuit wire type the same? -- meaning either 8/3
(40-amp) or 6/3 (50-amp) with ground?

The new cable will probably be type nm (Romex). You do want to install a
50 amp range outlet, and new 4 wire cord set on the range. When you
install the cord set, you need to remove the jumper that currently bridges
the neutral (white wire) and the frame of the range.

Thanks for your help. Sounds like a plan. I'm not looking forward to
having to work with #6 wire, but it looks like that's what I need to do to
do the job the right way.

wrote in message
...
On Jun 6, 8:58 pm, "TomR" wrote:
I am about to install an electric range/oven and I need help with the
wiring
requirements. This is for a late 1950's or early 1960's house. The house
has a 100 amp service panel that was installed in 2002.

Up until today, the house had an electric wall oven and a separate
built-in
4-burner electric countertop cooking range. Both were broken and I removed
both of them today along with the cabinets that went with them.

My plan is to replace these two appliances with a single electric
freestanding range/oven, and I want to install that in the morning. The
electric range/oven that I am putting in was given to me, and it is a GE
Model JBP23GV1AD that is in excellent condition. It came with a 3-prong,
3-wire (not a 4-wire), power cord already attached to it.

Unfortunately, after taking out the original two appliances today, I
realized that the existing wiring is probably not going to be re-usable
for
the new combined electric range/oven. The original electric wall oven and
electric countertop range were on two separate circuits. Each circuit
is/was on its own separate 30-amp breaker, and the wiring for each appears
to be cloth-covered 10/3 wire.

The only link that I could find regarding the manual for the GE Model
JBP23GV1AD that I am installing is:

http://www.geappliances.com/search/o...fs/49-8588.PDF.

Some of the wiring information is on Page 31 and 31 of that document.

I couldn't find the amperage/current requirements in the manual, so I
called
GE customer service. They said this range/oven requires a dedicated 40 amp
circuit.

So, here are the questions/issues that I would like to figure out:

1) I assume that the two existing 30-amp 10/3-wire dedicated circuits
can't
be re-used with the new (used) stove that I am now installing. Is that
correct?

2) I can fairly easily run a new dedicated circuit for the new range/oven.
It's fairly easy because the electric service panel is in the full
unfinished basement, and I can run the new circuit where either of the old
ones are already located -- across the ceiling and up through the floor
directly to the new range/oven. The total run is less than 60 feet
(probably closer to 50 feet). What size wire should I run and what size
breaker should I use?

3) I assume that I can use a 40-amp breaker and use #8 wire for that,
since
the range/oven I have now is a 40-amp appliance (according to GE). But, if
I later replace this electric range/oven with a new one, I am guessing
that
it may be a 50-amp range/oven since that's what most of them seem to be
after a quick check on the Internet. So, would it be smarter to just run a
50-amp circuit now (which I assume means a 50-amp breaker and #6 wire) --
is
that correct?

4) And, finally, do I need to (or should I) do a 4-wire hook-up with a
4-prong plug, or is the current 3-wire/3-prong plug sufficient? In either
case (whether I use the existing 3-prong or a new 4-prong plug), is the
new
dedicated circuit wire type the same? -- meaning either 8/3 (40-amp) or
6/3
(50-amp) with ground?

Thanks.

Do you have a 50Amp breaker for the panel? Everything else you say
seems reasonable, I would go with the 50A circuit and breaker and 4-
prong plug/socket for future upgrading.


+++++

I don't have the 50-amp breaker yet, but that's what I'll get -- plus the
4-prong plug, cord, and outlet.

TomR:

You may not be aware of it, but there is no plug and receptacle configuration for a 240 volt 40 amp circuit. There's one for 240 volt 30 amps and one for 240 volt, 50 amps, but there just isn't one for 240 volt 40 amps.

So, the range cord and receptacle you'll be needing to buy will be configured for a 240 volt 50 amp circuit, and at that point it only makes sense to pay a bit more and get the 6 gauge wire to provide 50 amp service to the range even though it's only rated for 40 amps.

The other thing to keep in mind is that lots of stoves (even new ones) only come with one convenience outlet even though there will be a hole stamped for a second one, but that hole will just be covered with a plastic cover plate. In a kitchen, you can never have enough electrical outlets. A second outlet is very easy to add, and I added one to my mother's stove. When you do that, you're going to be wanting the cable to your stove to be rated at 50 amps because that second convenience outlet might draw up to 15 or 20 amps. Typically, they'll use the same parts for their "builder's brand" no-frills stoves as they do for the stoves with all the bells and whistles meant for retail sale. So, all the holes for a second convenience outlet and to install a second fuse holder will all be there; it's just a matter of buying the parts, installing them and wiring them together. You can buy the fuse holder and receptacle at any appliance parts store.

And, of course, wait the 1 year for your warranty to expire before putting in that second convenience outlet because every applaince manufacturer will void your warranty if you modify the appliance.

"nestork" wrote in message
...

TomR:

You may not be aware of it, but there is no plug and receptacle
configuration for a 240 volt 40 amp circuit. There's one for 240 volt
30 amps and one for 240 volt, 50 amps, but there just isn't one for 240
volt 40 amps.

Thanks. That's good to know. I was actually wondering about that regarding
the existing 3-prong power cord that came with the range/oven. That means
it is probably a 50-ampt 3-prong power cord. But, since I will be switching
to a 4-prong cord, it doesn't really matter what the 3-prong one that I
already have is.

So, the range cord and receptacle you'll be needing to buy will be
configured for a 240 volt 50 amp circuit, and at that point it only
makes sense to pay a bit more and get the 6 gauge wire to provide 50 amp
service to the range even though it's only rated for 40 amps.

Yes, I agree. And, so far, that's the consensus of everyone else here.

The other thing to keep in mind is that lots of new stoves only come
with one convenience outlet even though there will be a hole stamped for
a second one. In a kitchen, you can never have enough electrical
outlets. A second outlet is very easy to add, and when you do, you're
going to be wanting the cable to your stove to be rated at 50 amps
because that second convenience outlet might draw up to 15 amps. They
very easy to add and you can buy the outlets at any appliance parts
store. You'll also have to add a second fuse holder in an accessible
location if you add a second convenience outlet.

I'm not sure what a convenience outlet is, but I assume that it is a
built-in 110/120V outlet in the range/oven. I'll have to look at it
tomorrow and see what I have.

On 6/7/2013 12:40 AM, TomR wrote:
"nestork" wrote in message
...

TomR:

You may not be aware of it, but there is no plug and receptacle
configuration for a 240 volt 40 amp circuit. There's one for 240 volt
30 amps and one for 240 volt, 50 amps, but there just isn't one for 240
volt 40 amps.

Thanks. That's good to know. I was actually wondering about that
regarding the existing 3-prong power cord that came with the
range/oven. That means it is probably a 50-ampt 3-prong power cord.
But, since I will be switching to a 4-prong cord, it doesn't really
matter what the 3-prong one that I already have is.

So, the range cord and receptacle you'll be needing to buy will be
configured for a 240 volt 50 amp circuit, and at that point it only
makes sense to pay a bit more and get the 6 gauge wire to provide 50 amp
service to the range even though it's only rated for 40 amps.

Yes, I agree. And, so far, that's the consensus of everyone else here.

The other thing to keep in mind is that lots of new stoves only come
with one convenience outlet even though there will be a hole stamped for
a second one. In a kitchen, you can never have enough electrical
outlets. A second outlet is very easy to add, and when you do, you're
going to be wanting the cable to your stove to be rated at 50 amps
because that second convenience outlet might draw up to 15 amps. They
very easy to add and you can buy the outlets at any appliance parts
store. You'll also have to add a second fuse holder in an accessible
location if you add a second convenience outlet.

I'm not sure what a convenience outlet is, but I assume that it is a
built-in 110/120V outlet in the range/oven. I'll have to look at it
tomorrow and see what I have.
Personally, I don't remember the last time I saw an outlet built on a
range, let alone two. Modern electric codes require plenty of of outlets
above counters in kitchens

On Jun 7, 6:50*am, RBM wrote:
On 6/7/2013 12:40 AM, TomR wrote:



"nestork" wrote in message
...

TomR:

You may not be aware of it, but there is no plug and receptacle
configuration for a 240 volt 40 amp circuit. *There's one for 240 volt
30 amps and one for 240 volt, 50 amps, but there just isn't one for 240
volt 40 amps.

Thanks. *That's good to know. *I was actually wondering about that
regarding the existing 3-prong power cord that came with the
range/oven. *That means it is probably a 50-ampt 3-prong power cord.
But, since I will be switching to a 4-prong cord, it doesn't really
matter what the 3-prong one that I already have is.

So, the range cord and receptacle you'll be needing to buy will be
configured for a 240 volt 50 amp circuit, and at that point it only
makes sense to pay a bit more and get the 6 gauge wire to provide 50 amp
service to the range even though it's only rated for 40 amps.

Yes, I agree. *And, so far, that's the consensus of everyone else here.

The other thing to keep in mind is that lots of new stoves only come
with one convenience outlet even though there will be a hole stamped for
a second one. *In a kitchen, you can never have enough electrical
outlets. *A second outlet is very easy to add, and when you do, you're
going to be wanting the cable to your stove to be rated at 50 amps
because that second convenience outlet might draw up to 15 amps. *They
very easy to add and you can buy the outlets at any appliance parts
store. *You'll also have to add a second fuse holder in an accessible
location if you add a second convenience outlet.

I'm not sure what a convenience outlet is, but I assume that it is a
built-in 110/120V outlet in the range/oven. *I'll have to look at it
tomorrow and see what I have.

Personally, I don't remember the last time I saw an outlet built on a
range, let alone two. Modern electric codes require plenty of of outlets
above counters in kitchens- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

From a non-electrical perspective, I would only add that I think
switching from seperate wall ovens and cooktop to a combined
stove lessens resale value. Depending on what's being done
with the house overall, it may not matter. But for a typical house
I think it's a mistake to switch to a stove. What is very attractive
today is a double wall oven, seperate cooktop. But then they
are also a lot more expensive and what he's getting is free.

On Fri, 07 Jun 2013 06:50:57 -0400, RBM wrote:

Modern electric codes require plenty of of outlets
above counters in kitchens

And if you have the space, outlets on the fronts of the base cabinets are
very convenient for stick blenders and hand mixers.

Don. www.donwiss.com (e-mail link at home page bottom).

Exactly. It'll be a 120 VAC receptacle typically mounted on the vertical panel between the stove's cooktop and console.

Appliance manufacturers will offer ranges in a variety of models; from your basic range with coil surface elements to ones with all the bells and whistles; a convection oven, ceramic cooktop, etc. The more expensive stoves will have two convenience outlets, but most will only have one. However, since it's more expensive to make and warehouse TWO different panels instead of one, appliance manufacturers will stamp every panel with two holes for two convenience outlets. And, in their less expensive models they'll only install one convenience outlet and cover the other hole with a plastic cover. So, if you see such a plastic cover on a stove, you can remove it so that you can install another convenience outlet yourself.

But, since a range will have 40 or 50 amp breakers going to it, any convenience outlet you install between the two power sources and neutral in a stove will be 120 volt 50 AMP circuits, and that kind of circuit is dangerous because it'll keep pumping out power even if there's a short circuit. So, every convenience outlet on a range will have it's own fuse to limit the current to the convenience outlet to 15 amps instead of 50 amps. Since the manufacturer also makes those same ranges in a different model with two convenience outlets, the threaded holes for installing a second fuse holder will also be in an accessible spot on the stove, so you don't actually have to cut or drill anything. All the holes to install another outlet will be there, it's just that they'll be empty or fitted with a plastic cover.

On Jun 7, 12:42*pm, nestork wrote:
'TomR[_5_ Wrote:

;3074741']
I'm not sure what a convenience outlet is, but I assume that it is a
built-in 110/120V outlet in the range/oven. *I'll have to look at it
tomorrow and see what I have.

Exactly. *It'll be a 120 VAC receptacle typically mounted on the
vertical panel between the stove's cooktop and console.

Appliance manufacturers will offer ranges in a variety of models; from
your basic range with coil surface elements to ones with all the bells
and whistles; a convection oven, ceramic cooktop, etc. *The more
expensive stoves will have two convenience outlets, but most will only
have one. *However, since it's more expensive to make and warehouse TWO
different panels instead of one, appliance manufacturers will stamp
every panel with two holes for two convenience outlets. *And, in their
less expensive models they'll only install one convenience outlet and
cover the other hole with a plastic cover. *So, if you see such a
plastic cover on a stove, you can remove it so that you can install
another convenience outlet yourself.

But, since a range will have 40 or 50 amp breakers going to it, any
convenience outlet you install between the two power sources and neutral
in a stove will be 120 volt 50 AMP circuits, and that kind of circuit is
dangerous because it'll keep pumping out power even if there's a short
circuit. *So, every convenience outlet on a range will have it's own
fuse to limit the current to the convenience outlet to 15 amps instead
of 50 amps. *Since the manufacturer also makes those same ranges in a
different model with two convenience outlets, the threaded holes for
installing a second fuse holder will also be in an accessible spot on
the stove, so you don't actually have to cut or drill anything. *All the
holes to install another outlet will be there, it's just that they'll be
empty or fitted with a plastic cover.

--
nestork

"However, since it's more expensive to make and warehouse TWO
different panels instead of one, appliance manufacturers will stamp
every panel with two holes for two convenience outlets."

Be careful when making broad statements.

My current (gas) range has zero convenience receptacles and zero
stamped holes where receptacles might go. Therefore, either they never
include convenience receptacles or they make multiple panels.

Now, before you jump on the fact that this is a gas range, my previous
gas range had one convenience receptacle and no extra stamped area for
another.

My only point is that not every manufacturer follows your description
of how the panels are made.

Yeah, but you're taking what I said out of context.

I was talking about companies that make multiple models of ranges that all use the same cabinet style. If some of those models feature two convenience outlets; some only one convenience outlet and some no convenience outlets, then it's dumb to warehouse and keep inventory of three different kinds of panels. It would be less expensive to stamp all the panels the same way and provide plastic covers to fit in the holes that aren't needed.

You're talking about different ranges probably made by different manufacturers at different times. It's most likely that at the time your stoves were made, the manufacturer only provided one or no convenience outlet on all of the gas ranges they made.

I'm sure that if either manufacturer made a gas range with two convenience outlets that used the same cabinet style as yours, then you would have seen one or two plastic covers on your ranges, too. Three different panels; one for each kind of range would be dumb engineering and/or dumb company management.

On 6/7/2013 1:35 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Jun 7, 12:42 pm, nestork wrote:
'TomR[_5_ Wrote:

;3074741']
I'm not sure what a convenience outlet is, but I assume that it is a
built-in 110/120V outlet in the range/oven. I'll have to look at it
tomorrow and see what I have.
Exactly. It'll be a 120 VAC receptacle typically mounted on the
vertical panel between the stove's cooktop and console.

Appliance manufacturers will offer ranges in a variety of models; from
your basic range with coil surface elements to ones with all the bells
and whistles; a convection oven, ceramic cooktop, etc. The more
expensive stoves will have two convenience outlets, but most will only
have one. However, since it's more expensive to make and warehouse TWO
different panels instead of one, appliance manufacturers will stamp
every panel with two holes for two convenience outlets. And, in their
less expensive models they'll only install one convenience outlet and
cover the other hole with a plastic cover. So, if you see such a
plastic cover on a stove, you can remove it so that you can install
another convenience outlet yourself.

But, since a range will have 40 or 50 amp breakers going to it, any
convenience outlet you install between the two power sources and neutral
in a stove will be 120 volt 50 AMP circuits, and that kind of circuit is
dangerous because it'll keep pumping out power even if there's a short
circuit. So, every convenience outlet on a range will have it's own
fuse to limit the current to the convenience outlet to 15 amps instead
of 50 amps. Since the manufacturer also makes those same ranges in a
different model with two convenience outlets, the threaded holes for
installing a second fuse holder will also be in an accessible spot on
the stove, so you don't actually have to cut or drill anything. All the
holes to install another outlet will be there, it's just that they'll be
empty or fitted with a plastic cover.

--
nestork
"However, since it's more expensive to make and warehouse TWO
different panels instead of one, appliance manufacturers will stamp
every panel with two holes for two convenience outlets."

Be careful when making broad statements.

My current (gas) range has zero convenience receptacles and zero
stamped holes where receptacles might go. Therefore, either they never
include convenience receptacles or they make multiple panels.

Now, before you jump on the fact that this is a gas range, my previous
gas range had one convenience receptacle and no extra stamped area for
another.

My only point is that not every manufacturer follows your description
of how the panels are made.
I just tossed one electric range and installed a new one in my house,
and neither had convenience outlets or any location where one could go.
And as an electrician who installs ranges fairly often, I don't remember
the last time I even saw an outlet mounted on a range.

On Jun 7, 3:38*pm, RBM wrote:
On 6/7/2013 1:35 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:



On Jun 7, 12:42 pm, nestork wrote:
'TomR[_5_ Wrote:

;3074741']
I'm not sure what a convenience outlet is, but I assume that it is a
built-in 110/120V outlet in the range/oven. *I'll have to look at it
tomorrow and see what I have.
Exactly. *It'll be a 120 VAC receptacle typically mounted on the
vertical panel between the stove's cooktop and console.

Appliance manufacturers will offer ranges in a variety of models; from
your basic range with coil surface elements to ones with all the bells
and whistles; a convection oven, ceramic cooktop, etc. *The more
expensive stoves will have two convenience outlets, but most will only
have one. *However, since it's more expensive to make and warehouse TWO
different panels instead of one, appliance manufacturers will stamp
every panel with two holes for two convenience outlets. *And, in their
less expensive models they'll only install one convenience outlet and
cover the other hole with a plastic cover. *So, if you see such a
plastic cover on a stove, you can remove it so that you can install
another convenience outlet yourself.

But, since a range will have 40 or 50 amp breakers going to it, any
convenience outlet you install between the two power sources and neutral
in a stove will be 120 volt 50 AMP circuits, and that kind of circuit is
dangerous because it'll keep pumping out power even if there's a short
circuit. *So, every convenience outlet on a range will have it's own
fuse to limit the current to the convenience outlet to 15 amps instead
of 50 amps. *Since the manufacturer also makes those same ranges in a
different model with two convenience outlets, the threaded holes for
installing a second fuse holder will also be in an accessible spot on
the stove, so you don't actually have to cut or drill anything. *All the
holes to install another outlet will be there, it's just that they'll be
empty or fitted with a plastic cover.

--
nestork
"However, since it's more expensive to make and warehouse TWO
different panels instead of one, appliance manufacturers will stamp
every panel with two holes for two convenience outlets."

Be careful when making broad statements.

My current (gas) range has zero convenience receptacles and zero
stamped holes where receptacles might go. Therefore, either they never
include convenience receptacles or they make multiple panels.

Now, before you jump on the fact that this is a gas range, my previous
gas range had one convenience receptacle and no extra stamped area for
another.

My only point is that not every manufacturer follows your description
of how the panels are made.

I just tossed one electric range and installed a new one in my house,
and neither had convenience outlets or any location where one could go.
And as an electrician who installs ranges fairly often, I don't remember
the last time I even saw an outlet mounted on a range.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I do miss the receptacle that was on my old gas range. It sure was
"convenient". ;-)

I actually looked for a place to cut a hole and put one on the new
range but never got around to it.

On 6/7/2013 3:59 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Jun 7, 3:38 pm, RBM wrote:
On 6/7/2013 1:35 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:



On Jun 7, 12:42 pm, nestork wrote:
'TomR[_5_ Wrote:
;3074741']
I'm not sure what a convenience outlet is, but I assume that it is a
built-in 110/120V outlet in the range/oven. I'll have to look at it
tomorrow and see what I have.
Exactly. It'll be a 120 VAC receptacle typically mounted on the
vertical panel between the stove's cooktop and console.
Appliance manufacturers will offer ranges in a variety of models; from
your basic range with coil surface elements to ones with all the bells
and whistles; a convection oven, ceramic cooktop, etc. The more
expensive stoves will have two convenience outlets, but most will only
have one. However, since it's more expensive to make and warehouse TWO
different panels instead of one, appliance manufacturers will stamp
every panel with two holes for two convenience outlets. And, in their
less expensive models they'll only install one convenience outlet and
cover the other hole with a plastic cover. So, if you see such a
plastic cover on a stove, you can remove it so that you can install
another convenience outlet yourself.
But, since a range will have 40 or 50 amp breakers going to it, any
convenience outlet you install between the two power sources and neutral
in a stove will be 120 volt 50 AMP circuits, and that kind of circuit is
dangerous because it'll keep pumping out power even if there's a short
circuit. So, every convenience outlet on a range will have it's own
fuse to limit the current to the convenience outlet to 15 amps instead
of 50 amps. Since the manufacturer also makes those same ranges in a
different model with two convenience outlets, the threaded holes for
installing a second fuse holder will also be in an accessible spot on
the stove, so you don't actually have to cut or drill anything. All the
holes to install another outlet will be there, it's just that they'll be
empty or fitted with a plastic cover.
--
nestork
"However, since it's more expensive to make and warehouse TWO
different panels instead of one, appliance manufacturers will stamp
every panel with two holes for two convenience outlets."
Be careful when making broad statements.
My current (gas) range has zero convenience receptacles and zero
stamped holes where receptacles might go. Therefore, either they never
include convenience receptacles or they make multiple panels.
Now, before you jump on the fact that this is a gas range, my previous
gas range had one convenience receptacle and no extra stamped area for
another.
My only point is that not every manufacturer follows your description
of how the panels are made.
I just tossed one electric range and installed a new one in my house,
and neither had convenience outlets or any location where one could go.
And as an electrician who installs ranges fairly often, I don't remember
the last time I even saw an outlet mounted on a range.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
I do miss the receptacle that was on my old gas range. It sure was
"convenient". ;-)

I actually looked for a place to cut a hole and put one on the new
range but never got around to it.
I just haven't seen one in years. I looked online and can't find any
range that shows one, or lists one in the specs.

Here ya go, RBM:

This GE range has a convenience outlet:

http://www.geappliances.ca/jsp/ge_Ra...&photo=Y&line=

If you look in the "Features" section on the specification table, it clearly says "Outlets = 1".

This GE electric range with convection oven also has a convenience outlet...

http://www.geappliances.ca/jsp/ge_Ra...&photo=Y&line=

You can't see it in the photo, but if the specification says it's there, then it's there.

On 6/7/2013 7:06 PM, nestork wrote:
'RBM[_2_ Wrote:
;3075115']
I just haven't seen one in years. I looked online and can't find any
range that shows one, or lists one in the specs.
Here ya go, RBM:

This GE range has a convenience outlet:

http://tinyurl.com/k9qjjel

GE airbrushes the convenience outlet out of the picture to make you
think it doesn't have one, but if you look in the "Features" section on
the specification table, it clearly says "Outlets = 1".

That means that range has one convenience outlet, even though it's
invisible to the naked eye in the picture.




Yeah, I was looking at the "features" and couldn't find any with outlets
in a dozen different models. I don't think outlets on ranges are typical
anymore. Possibly on the low end stuff like the one in your picture, maybe .

nestork wrote:
'RBM[_2_ Wrote:
;3075115']
I just haven't seen one in years. I looked online and can't find any
range that shows one, or lists one in the specs.

Here ya go, RBM:

This GE range has a convenience outlet:

http://tinyurl.com/k9qjjel

GE airbrushes the convenience outlet out of the picture to make you
think it doesn't have one, but if you look in the "Features" section on
the specification table, it clearly says "Outlets = 1".

That means that range has one convenience outlet, even though it's
invisible to the naked eye in the picture.




According to page 16 of this manual, the convenience outlet is located on
the top of backguard so it might just be hard to see in the pictures.

http://media.datatail.com/docs/manual/108351_en.pdf

However, it's interesting that GE doesn't list that model number on its
website. I wonder if it's discontinued but still available in stores.

I would not say that, Mr. RBM.

On 6/7/2013 11:49 PM, nestork wrote:
'RBM[_2_ Wrote:
;3075171']
I don't think outlets on ranges are typical anymore.
Possibly on the low end stuff like the one in your picture, maybe.

I would not say that, Mr. RBM.




Clearly, you wouldn't, but then again you seem to think outlets on
ranges are pretty standard, and the better models have two outlets.
I on the other hand, haven't seen outlets on ranges in quite a long
time. I'm sure you can still find a few, but by and large, I think they
are a thing of the past, in fact I was just at Home Depot this afternoon
and took a look at their free standing ranges. They had 17 models on
display, none of which had outlets on them.

On Jun 8, 6:40*pm, RBM wrote:
On 6/7/2013 11:49 PM, nestork wrote: 'RBM[_2_ Wrote:
;3075171']
I don't think outlets on ranges are typical anymore.
Possibly on the low end stuff like the one in your picture, maybe.

I would not say that, Mr. RBM.

* Clearly, you wouldn't, but then again you seem to think outlets on
ranges are pretty standard, and the better models have two outlets.
I on the other hand, haven't seen outlets on ranges in quite a long
time. I'm sure you can still find a few, but by and large, I think they
are a thing of the past, in fact I was just at Home Depot this afternoon
and took a look at their free standing ranges. They had 17 models on
display, none of which had outlets on them.

I can think of a couple of reasons why:

A - An outlet on a range sounds like a safety issue. The cord
could very easily come in contact with the heating element/burner
melting the insulation.

B - With the exception of using perhaps an immersion blender,
what would you want to plug in and use at the range anyway?

On 6/9/2013 8:48 AM, wrote:
On Jun 8, 6:40 pm, RBM wrote:
On 6/7/2013 11:49 PM, nestork wrote: 'RBM[_2_ Wrote:
;3075171']
I don't think outlets on ranges are typical anymore.
Possibly on the low end stuff like the one in your picture, maybe.
I would not say that, Mr. RBM.
Clearly, you wouldn't, but then again you seem to think outlets on
ranges are pretty standard, and the better models have two outlets.
I on the other hand, haven't seen outlets on ranges in quite a long
time. I'm sure you can still find a few, but by and large, I think they
are a thing of the past, in fact I was just at Home Depot this afternoon
and took a look at their free standing ranges. They had 17 models on
display, none of which had outlets on them.
I can think of a couple of reasons why:

A - An outlet on a range sounds like a safety issue. The cord
could very easily come in contact with the heating element/burner
melting the insulation.

B - With the exception of using perhaps an immersion blender,
what would you want to plug in and use at the range anyway?
Hey, the efficient woman could blow dry her hair while frying eggs and
bacon.
I think those were from a time when there weren't modern counter top
outlet requirements. I would be surprised if their disappearance wasn't
a matter of safety/liability as well.

On Jun 9, 10:01*am, RBM wrote:
On 6/9/2013 8:48 AM, wrote:



On Jun 8, 6:40 pm, RBM wrote:
On 6/7/2013 11:49 PM, nestork wrote: 'RBM[_2_ Wrote:
;3075171']
I don't think outlets on ranges are typical anymore.
Possibly on the low end stuff like the one in your picture, maybe.
I would not say that, Mr. RBM.
* *Clearly, you wouldn't, but then again you seem to think outlets on
ranges are pretty standard, and the better models have two outlets.
I on the other hand, haven't seen outlets on ranges in quite a long
time. I'm sure you can still find a few, but by and large, I think they
are a thing of the past, in fact I was just at Home Depot this afternoon
and took a look at their free standing ranges. They had 17 models on
display, none of which had outlets on them.
I can think of a couple of reasons why:

A - An outlet on a range sounds like a safety issue. * The cord
could very easily come in contact with the heating element/burner
melting the insulation.

B - With the exception of using perhaps an immersion blender,
what would you want to plug in and use at the range anyway?

Hey, the efficient woman could blow dry her hair while frying eggs and
bacon.
I think those were from a time when there weren't modern counter top
outlet requirements. I would be surprised if their disappearance wasn't
a matter of safety/liability as well.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The debate does have me curious though. Next time I'm in a store
that sells appliances I'm going to take a look.

wrote in message
...
and took a look at their free standing ranges. They had 17 models on
display, none of which had outlets on them.

I can think of a couple of reasons why:

A - An outlet on a range sounds like a safety issue. The cord
could very easily come in contact with the heating element/burner
melting the insulation.

B - With the exception of using perhaps an immersion blender,
what would you want to plug in and use at the range anyway?

You missed the main reason. They can save a dollar or two by not putting
one on the stove.

Yes, they can save $2 by not having to install a convenience outlet or another fuse holder.

But, they can sell more stoves if their stoves have a convenience outlets. And, my guess is that it's NOT a wash. Stove manufacturers make a lot more than $2 profit on each stove they sell, and so the more stoves they sell, even ones equipped with convenience outlets, the more profit they make.

In my mother's case, she has her microwave oven plugged into one of her stove's convenience outlets and a toaster plugged into the other.

New homes have more electrical outlets in the kitchens, AND they're rated at 20 amps each. But, look at the huge number of older homes built in the 40's, 50's, 60's, 70's and 80's that will typically only have one electrical outlet in the kitchen rated at 15 amps. That's cuz back in the 50's and 60's, microwave ovens (aka: "radar ranges") were the size of a small fridge and cost $1500. Nowadays, they're small enough to fit on any counter top, cost $49 at Walmart, and everyone has one. People with those homes WANT additional electrical outlets in their kitchens for the convenience of being able to use more than one small appliance at the same time, and a convenience outlet on their stove is an important feature in their eyes.

This thread is stupid.
If convenience outlets on stoves were a desireable feature in the past, why wouldn't they be a desireable feature now? What could get into an appliance manufacturer's head to make him decide people don't need or want them any more? If a house has 6 duplex receptacles over it's kitchen counter top, sure, another one on the stove isn't needed. But, what about all the houses out there with only one duplex receptacle over the kitchen counter top and another one behind the fridge? For the $2 each they cost to provide, why NOT provide them on a stove for those that want them? The stove is gonna sell for $600 to $1600, so it's not like it's going to affect the profitability of making and selling stoves.

I once went into a hardware store wanting to buy a 7/16ths inch drill bit. They didn't have one. The guy working there told me "There's no demand for them any more. Nowadays, everyone drills 3/8 or 1/2 inch holes. No one drills 7/16ths inch holes anymore." I didn't argue with the guy. How can you lock horns with insanity and remain sane yourself.

On Jun 9, 12:47*pm, nestork wrote:
Ralph Mowery;3075773 Wrote:



You missed the main reason. *They can save a dollar or two by not
putting
one on the stove.

Yes, they can save $2 by not having to install a convenience outlet or
another fuse holder.

But, they can sell more stoves if their stoves have a convenience
outlets. *And, my guess is that it's NOT a wash. *Stove manufacturers
make a lot more than $2 profit on each stove they sell, and so the more
stoves they sell, even ones equipped with convenience outlets, the more
profit they make.

I agree that I don't think cost savings is the main reason.
That hardly seems the reason to not have one on a $1000 or $2000
range full of all kinds of optional stuff. If anything, the only
place one
seems to have been found in this thread is on a lower end GE stove.




In my mother's case, she has her microwave oven plugged into one of her
stove's convenience outlets and a toaster plugged into the other.


I hope it's rated for all that.



New homes have more electrical outlets in the kitchens, AND they're
rated at 20 amps each. *But, look at the huge number of older homes
built in the 40's, 50's, 60's, 70's and 80's that will typically only
have one electrical outlet in the kitchen rated at 15 amps.


They sure weren't building houses here in the USA with only
one outlet in a kitchen in the 70s and 80s. Even in the
houses I grew up in that were built in the early 50s, there
were a couple of outlets over the countertops. There would
be a counter to the left of the sink, one to the right and one outlet
on each of those sections. One house also had a small island
that divided the kitchen from an eat in kitchen. There was an
outlet on the wall over the island. That's where we kept the
toaster.


*That's cuz
back in the 50's and 60's, microwave ovens (aka: "radar ranges") were
the size of a small fridge and cost $1500. *Nowadays, they're small
enough to fit on any counter top, cost $49 at Walmart, and everyone has
one. *People with those homes WANT additional electrical outlets in
their kitchens for the convenience of being able to use more than one
small appliance at the same time, and a convenience outlet on their
stove is an important feature in their eyes.

This thread is stupid.
If convenience outlets on stoves were a desireable feature in the past,
why wouldn't they be a desireable feature now?

They may still be desirable for some people. I just think how much
they matter has diminished because as RBM pointed out, there
are a lot more outlets in a typical kitchen today. Even houses from
the 50s and 60s, a hell of a lot of them have been renovated and
made more modern. And as I previously pointed out, I think an
outlet on the back control panel of a stove is a bad idea from a
safety standpoint. It's also puts one more hard to clean thing
in a spot where it's going to get stuff on it.


*What could get into an
appliance manufacturer's head to make him decide people don't need or
want them any more?

See the safety issue. Also, I would expect they do focus
groups and such to get feedback as to what features people
want. They see what sells, what doesn't sell. It could also
be that people want sleek looking ranges and an outlet makes
it look like a throwback to the 60s and perhaps less desirable
than one without it?




*If a house has 6 duplex receptacles over it's
kitchen counter top, sure, another one on the stove isn't needed. *But,
what about all the houses out there with only one duplex receptacle over
the kitchen counter top and another one behind the fridge?


Personally, I've never seen that in the USA.

*For the $2
each they cost to provide, why NOT provide them on a stove for those
that want them? *The stove is gonna sell for $600 to $1600, so it's not
like it's going to affect the profitability of making and selling
stoves.

Well, I guess that money does add up at some point. If the cost is
$2, then that's maybe $7 at retail. For cheap stoves, that could be
a factor. And for a $1500 stove, maybe adding an outlet makes it
look like a throwback to the 60s and consumers less likely to buy it?
Who knows.




I once went into a hardware store wanting to buy a 7/16ths inch drill
bit. *They didn't have one. *The guy working there told me "There's no
demand for them any more. *Nowadays, everyone drills 3/8 or 1/2 inch
holes. *No one drills 7/16ths inch holes anymore." *I didn't argue with
the guy. *How can you lock horns with insanity and remain sane yourself..

--
nestork

That sounds like the village idiots that work in the local ACE
Hardware
here. Soon as you walk in the door, they descend on you. And instead
of being helpful, they just waste your time with stupid questions. My
all time favorite was the time I went looking for water pressure
gauge.
The guy didn't have one, but gave me a lesson on how home water
system pressure is about 2 PSI......

On 6/9/2013 8:48 AM, wrote:
On Jun 8, 6:40 pm, RBM wrote:
On 6/7/2013 11:49 PM, nestork wrote: 'RBM[_2_ Wrote:
;3075171']
I don't think outlets on ranges are typical anymore.
Possibly on the low end stuff like the one in your picture, maybe.

I would not say that, Mr. RBM.

Clearly, you wouldn't, but then again you seem to think outlets on
ranges are pretty standard, and the better models have two outlets.
I on the other hand, haven't seen outlets on ranges in quite a long
time. I'm sure you can still find a few, but by and large, I think they
are a thing of the past, in fact I was just at Home Depot this afternoon
and took a look at their free standing ranges. They had 17 models on
display, none of which had outlets on them.

I can think of a couple of reasons why:

A - An outlet on a range sounds like a safety issue. The cord
could very easily come in contact with the heating element/burner
melting the insulation.

B - With the exception of using perhaps an immersion blender,
what would you want to plug in and use at the range anyway?


A couple of weekends ago we had overnight guests. On Saturday morning
SWMBO was using most of the main counter making batter for pancakes and
waffles. A stand mixer, a hand mixer, bowls, ingredients, etc.

I pulled out the waffle iron and stood there looking for a place to set
it up and start cooking. Ah, look there next to the range. Look at the
empty counter space. Too bad the only outlet on that wall is the one
behind the refrigerator. It sure would have been convenient to have a
convenience outlet on the range so I didn't annoy the missus by crowding
into her prep space.

That same next-to-the-range counter space would be a convenient place to
put the bread maker and my cooks-to-slow slow cooker during the
occasional times that I pull them out of storage.

As I said earlier in this thread, the duct work for the second floor
runs up the wall behind the range, specifically where the open counter
space is between the range and the fridge. I'd love to add an outlet,
but it would have to be a surface mount and I find them extremely
unattractive.

If my range had a convenience outlet, it would certainly see its share
of use.

I just got back from my local Home Depot not more than 15 minutes ago.

I did check out their stoves, and MOST of them had one convenience outlet. However, all the stoves with convenience outlets had them located on the TOP of the console, either on the left side or the right side; not at the front on the panel between the console and the cooktop where they were most commonly found years ago.

There were lots of stoves that didn't have any convenience outlets, but most had one. I didn't see any that had two.

But, when I asked the salesman at Home Depot "Do you have any electric ranges WITHOUT a convenience outlet?" His response to me was "Why would it be important to you NOT to have an extra plug-in on your stove?", and I thought "Exactly!". For the $2 the darn thing costs the manufacturer to provide, why NOT put two of them on every stove? How many people looking to buy a stove for $600 to $1000 are going to decide not to buy a stove because it has two convenience outlets and costs $5 more?

Anyhow, Mr. RBM:
You said:

Could you pease give us the phone number of that Home Depot store?
I have a long distance calling card that allows me to phone anywhere in Canada or the USA for 4.3 cents per minute, and it's worth 4.3 cents to me to confirm that what you're saying is true.


The Home Depot store here in Winnipeg is the one near Polo Park shopping center and their phone number is (204) 779-0703.

On 6/9/2013 9:32 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:

wrote in message
...
and took a look at their free standing ranges. They had 17 models on
display, none of which had outlets on them.

I can think of a couple of reasons why:

A - An outlet on a range sounds like a safety issue. The cord
could very easily come in contact with the heating element/burner
melting the insulation.

B - With the exception of using perhaps an immersion blender,
what would you want to plug in and use at the range anyway?

You missed the main reason. They can save a dollar or two by not putting
one on the stove.


Most electrical and building codes call for GFI outlets in a kitchen,
especially near a sink. My stove is quite near our sink and if it was
an old electric stove with 120 volt convenience outlets there would be
no protection from electric shocks. I suppose the new electric stove
manufacturers no longer include convenience outlets because they have
no control over how their stoves are installed and even if GFI outlets
were part of the stove, there is no guarantee that their stoves would
always be properly grounded. The corporate risk lawyers may have more to
do with the decision to leave off the convenience outlets than the
corporate bean counters. o_O

TDD

On 6/9/2013 3:06 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On 6/9/2013 8:48 AM, wrote:
On Jun 8, 6:40 pm, RBM wrote:
On 6/7/2013 11:49 PM, nestork wrote: 'RBM[_2_ Wrote:
;3075171']
I don't think outlets on ranges are typical anymore.
Possibly on the low end stuff like the one in your picture, maybe.

I would not say that, Mr. RBM.

Clearly, you wouldn't, but then again you seem to think outlets on
ranges are pretty standard, and the better models have two outlets.
I on the other hand, haven't seen outlets on ranges in quite a long
time. I'm sure you can still find a few, but by and large, I think they
are a thing of the past, in fact I was just at Home Depot this
afternoon
and took a look at their free standing ranges. They had 17 models on
display, none of which had outlets on them.

I can think of a couple of reasons why:

A - An outlet on a range sounds like a safety issue. The cord
could very easily come in contact with the heating element/burner
melting the insulation.

B - With the exception of using perhaps an immersion blender,
what would you want to plug in and use at the range anyway?


A couple of weekends ago we had overnight guests. On Saturday morning
SWMBO was using most of the main counter making batter for pancakes
and waffles. A stand mixer, a hand mixer, bowls, ingredients, etc.

I pulled out the waffle iron and stood there looking for a place to
set it up and start cooking. Ah, look there next to the range. Look at
the empty counter space. Too bad the only outlet on that wall is the
one behind the refrigerator. It sure would have been convenient to
have a convenience outlet on the range so I didn't annoy the missus by
crowding into her prep space.

That same next-to-the-range counter space would be a convenient place
to put the bread maker and my cooks-to-slow slow cooker during the
occasional times that I pull them out of storage.

As I said earlier in this thread, the duct work for the second floor
runs up the wall behind the range, specifically where the open counter
space is between the range and the fridge. I'd love to add an outlet,
but it would have to be a surface mount and I find them extremely
unattractive.

If my range had a convenience outlet, it would certainly see its share
of use.


Yeah, but it would be even more convenient if you had the currently
required counter outlets. My guess is that most people today have
adequate counter outlets to the degree that the range manufacturers
don't find the desire to have them anymore.

On 6/9/2013 4:10 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 6/9/2013 9:32 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:

wrote in message
...

and took a look at their free standing ranges. They had 17 models on
display, none of which had outlets on them.

I can think of a couple of reasons why:

A - An outlet on a range sounds like a safety issue. The cord
could very easily come in contact with the heating element/burner
melting the insulation.

B - With the exception of using perhaps an immersion blender,
what would you want to plug in and use at the range anyway?

You missed the main reason. They can save a dollar or two by not
putting
one on the stove.


Most electrical and building codes call for GFI outlets in a kitchen,
especially near a sink. My stove is quite near our sink and if it was
an old electric stove with 120 volt convenience outlets there would be
no protection from electric shocks. I suppose the new electric stove
manufacturers no longer include convenience outlets because they have
no control over how their stoves are installed and even if GFI outlets
were part of the stove, there is no guarantee that their stoves would
always be properly grounded. The corporate risk lawyers may have more
to do with the decision to leave off the convenience outlets than the
corporate bean counters. o_O

TDD


I kind of wonder about the GFCI aspect of this as well. For one thing,
you wouldn't be able to have a gf outlet on a range fed from a 3 wire feeder

On 6/9/2013 3:39 PM, nestork wrote:
I just got back from my local Home Depot not more than 15 minutes ago.

I did check out their stoves, and MOST of them had one convenience
outlet. However, all the stoves with convenience outlets had them
located on the TOP of the console, either on the left side or the right
side; not at the front on the panel between the console and the cooktop
where they were most commonly found years ago.

There were lots of stoves that didn't have any convenience outlets, but
most had one. I didn't see any that had two.

But, when I asked the salesman at Home Depot "Do you have any electric
ranges WITHOUT a convenience outlet?" His response to me was "Why would
it be important to you NOT to have an extra plug-in on your stove?", and
I thought "Exactly!". For the $2 the darn thing costs the manufacturer
to provide, why NOT put two of them on every stove? How many things can
you think of in a kitchen that need to be plugged in? Microwave oven,
toaster, coffee maker, electric kettle, electric frying pan, electric
can opener, coffee maker, food processor, slow cooker, coffee maker,
etc. You simply can't have too many electric outlets in a kitchen.

Anyhow, Mr. RBM:
You said:
in fact I was just at Home Depot this afternoon
and took a look at their free standing ranges. They had 17 models on
display, none of which had outlets on them.

Could you pease give us the phone number of that Home Depot store?
I have a long distance calling card that allows me to phone anywhere in
Canada or the USA for 4.3 cents per minute, and it's worth 4.3 cents to
me to confirm that what you're saying is true.


The Home Depot store here in Winnipeg is the one near Polo Park shopping
center and their phone number is (204) 779-0703.




Maybe this is a Canadian thing. Now I'm even more curious for others in
the U.S. to look. I looked at 17 free standing ranges in the Southeast,
NY Home depot, and not one had a receptacle.

On 6/9/2013 3:27 PM, RBM wrote:
On 6/9/2013 4:10 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 6/9/2013 9:32 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:

wrote in message
...

and took a look at their free standing ranges. They had 17 models on
display, none of which had outlets on them.

I can think of a couple of reasons why:

A - An outlet on a range sounds like a safety issue. The cord
could very easily come in contact with the heating element/burner
melting the insulation.

B - With the exception of using perhaps an immersion blender,
what would you want to plug in and use at the range anyway?

You missed the main reason. They can save a dollar or two by not
putting
one on the stove.


Most electrical and building codes call for GFI outlets in a kitchen,
especially near a sink. My stove is quite near our sink and if it was
an old electric stove with 120 volt convenience outlets there would be
no protection from electric shocks. I suppose the new electric stove
manufacturers no longer include convenience outlets because they have
no control over how their stoves are installed and even if GFI outlets
were part of the stove, there is no guarantee that their stoves would
always be properly grounded. The corporate risk lawyers may have more
to do with the decision to leave off the convenience outlets than the
corporate bean counters. o_O

TDD


I kind of wonder about the GFCI aspect of this as well. For one thing,
you wouldn't be able to have a gf outlet on a range fed from a 3 wire
feeder

That's exactly what I thought. The legal system would probably nail the
stove manufacturer even though their installation instructions called
for a four wire feed. I posted in the "locked meter" thread about idiots
making illegal electrical hookups and the danger involved because there
will always be someone, sometime, somewhere doing something extremely
stupid involving electrical power. It's called "The Dumassification Of
America". Something that has caused more mayhem and death that any other
tragedy that has befallen our country. o_O

TDD

On 6/9/2013 4:23 PM, RBM wrote:
On 6/9/2013 3:06 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On 6/9/2013 8:48 AM, wrote:
On Jun 8, 6:40 pm, RBM wrote:
On 6/7/2013 11:49 PM, nestork wrote: 'RBM[_2_ Wrote:
;3075171']
I don't think outlets on ranges are typical anymore.
Possibly on the low end stuff like the one in your picture, maybe.

I would not say that, Mr. RBM.

Clearly, you wouldn't, but then again you seem to think outlets on
ranges are pretty standard, and the better models have two outlets.
I on the other hand, haven't seen outlets on ranges in quite a long
time. I'm sure you can still find a few, but by and large, I think they
are a thing of the past, in fact I was just at Home Depot this
afternoon
and took a look at their free standing ranges. They had 17 models on
display, none of which had outlets on them.

I can think of a couple of reasons why:

A - An outlet on a range sounds like a safety issue. The cord
could very easily come in contact with the heating element/burner
melting the insulation.

B - With the exception of using perhaps an immersion blender,
what would you want to plug in and use at the range anyway?


A couple of weekends ago we had overnight guests. On Saturday morning
SWMBO was using most of the main counter making batter for pancakes
and waffles. A stand mixer, a hand mixer, bowls, ingredients, etc.

I pulled out the waffle iron and stood there looking for a place to
set it up and start cooking. Ah, look there next to the range. Look at
the empty counter space. Too bad the only outlet on that wall is the
one behind the refrigerator. It sure would have been convenient to
have a convenience outlet on the range so I didn't annoy the missus by
crowding into her prep space.

That same next-to-the-range counter space would be a convenient place
to put the bread maker and my cooks-to-slow slow cooker during the
occasional times that I pull them out of storage.

As I said earlier in this thread, the duct work for the second floor
runs up the wall behind the range, specifically where the open counter
space is between the range and the fridge. I'd love to add an outlet,
but it would have to be a surface mount and I find them extremely
unattractive.

If my range had a convenience outlet, it would certainly see its share
of use.


Yeah, but it would be even more convenient if you had the currently
required counter outlets. My guess is that most people today have
adequate counter outlets to the degree that the range manufacturers
don't find the desire to have them anymore.

Through the upgrades that I've done to the main counter area, I believe
that I have all of the required counter outlets in that area.

On the wall where the range and fridge are, there was no counter top
when I moved in, just empty space between the two appliances where the
former owners kept their garbage can. I built an 18" base cabinet to
hold the garbage can and to provide a little counter space next to the
range. The range that was there at the time had a convenience outlet, so
I didn't need to add an outlet above the counter. My new range doesn't
have one, so now I'm without power for that counter. If you add a 18"
base cabinet as I did, are you required to add an outlet above it?

Why the former owners chose to live for 30 years without counter space
next to their range is beyond me. I built the cabinet within weeks of
moving in. Of course, that same family chose to look down over the
backyard from 2 side by side double hung windows, requiring them to walk
to front of the house and then around the back to access the yard. The
first summer I was in the house I replaced the windows with a sliding
glass door, built a deck and stairs down to the yard. 30 years later, I
still thank myself for building the deck.

On 6/9/2013 5:29 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On 6/9/2013 4:23 PM, RBM wrote:
On 6/9/2013 3:06 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On 6/9/2013 8:48 AM, wrote:
On Jun 8, 6:40 pm, RBM wrote:
On 6/7/2013 11:49 PM, nestork wrote: 'RBM[_2_ Wrote:
;3075171']
I don't think outlets on ranges are typical anymore.
Possibly on the low end stuff like the one in your picture, maybe.

I would not say that, Mr. RBM.

Clearly, you wouldn't, but then again you seem to think outlets on
ranges are pretty standard, and the better models have two outlets.
I on the other hand, haven't seen outlets on ranges in quite a long
time. I'm sure you can still find a few, but by and large, I think
they
are a thing of the past, in fact I was just at Home Depot this
afternoon
and took a look at their free standing ranges. They had 17 models on
display, none of which had outlets on them.

I can think of a couple of reasons why:

A - An outlet on a range sounds like a safety issue. The cord
could very easily come in contact with the heating element/burner
melting the insulation.

B - With the exception of using perhaps an immersion blender,
what would you want to plug in and use at the range anyway?


A couple of weekends ago we had overnight guests. On Saturday morning
SWMBO was using most of the main counter making batter for pancakes
and waffles. A stand mixer, a hand mixer, bowls, ingredients, etc.

I pulled out the waffle iron and stood there looking for a place to
set it up and start cooking. Ah, look there next to the range. Look at
the empty counter space. Too bad the only outlet on that wall is the
one behind the refrigerator. It sure would have been convenient to
have a convenience outlet on the range so I didn't annoy the missus by
crowding into her prep space.

That same next-to-the-range counter space would be a convenient place
to put the bread maker and my cooks-to-slow slow cooker during the
occasional times that I pull them out of storage.

As I said earlier in this thread, the duct work for the second floor
runs up the wall behind the range, specifically where the open counter
space is between the range and the fridge. I'd love to add an outlet,
but it would have to be a surface mount and I find them extremely
unattractive.

If my range had a convenience outlet, it would certainly see its share
of use.


Yeah, but it would be even more convenient if you had the currently
required counter outlets. My guess is that most people today have
adequate counter outlets to the degree that the range manufacturers
don't find the desire to have them anymore.

Through the upgrades that I've done to the main counter area, I
believe that I have all of the required counter outlets in that area.

On the wall where the range and fridge are, there was no counter top
when I moved in, just empty space between the two appliances where the
former owners kept their garbage can. I built an 18" base cabinet to
hold the garbage can and to provide a little counter space next to the
range. The range that was there at the time had a convenience outlet,
so I didn't need to add an outlet above the counter. My new range
doesn't have one, so now I'm without power for that counter. If you
add a 18" base cabinet as I did, are you required to add an outlet
above it?

Why the former owners chose to live for 30 years without counter space
next to their range is beyond me. I built the cabinet within weeks of
moving in. Of course, that same family chose to look down over the
backyard from 2 side by side double hung windows, requiring them to
walk to front of the house and then around the back to access the
yard. The first summer I was in the house I replaced the windows with
a sliding glass door, built a deck and stairs down to the yard. 30
years later, I still thank myself for building the deck.
In my opinion, you do what you need, it's your house.
The Nec however requires an outlet at any kitchen counter space 12" or
larger, and no point along a counter space can you be more than 24" from
an outlet.

"RBM" wrote in message
...
I kind of wonder about the GFCI aspect of this as well. For one thing,
you wouldn't be able to have a gf outlet on a range fed from a 3 wire
feeder

Are you sure ? It may not protect exectally correctly, but you should be
able to wire it up.

On 6/9/2013 6:16 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
"RBM" wrote in message
...
I kind of wonder about the GFCI aspect of this as well. For one thing,
you wouldn't be able to have a gf outlet on a range fed from a 3 wire
feeder
Are you sure ? It may not protect exectally correctly, but you should be
able to wire it up.


The neutral and ground on a gfci have to be separated. With both
connected to the frame of the range I think you'd have issues

What's the store's phone number?

On 6/9/2013 5:23 PM, RBM wrote:
On 6/9/2013 6:16 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
"RBM" wrote in message
...
I kind of wonder about the GFCI aspect of this as well. For one thing,
you wouldn't be able to have a gf outlet on a range fed from a 3 wire
feeder
Are you sure ? It may not protect exectally correctly, but you should be
able to wire it up.


The neutral and ground on a gfci have to be separated. With both
connected to the frame of the range I think you'd have issues

If he doesn't believe it, all he has to do is go to a GFCI outlet and
take a paperclip or piece of wire then short the neutral to ground. If
the GFCI outlet is working, it will trip when the wide slot is shorted
to the ground. ^_^

TDD