On Thu, 04 Oct 2012 12:58:23 -0400, Don Wiss
wrote:

On Thu, 4 Oct 2012, Ralph Mowery wrote:

Same day service may mean they just come out. They may have to order a part
and hard telling when they will come back with that. A major outage may
overwhelm the ammount of service men they have and you are not going to get
that same day service.

And more negativity in this group!

While it is true that they may have to order a part. But the same day
service is guaranteed if calling before 5 PM. If necessary the fellow will
work into the evening.

IF the parts are available.
My under-warranty new furnace needed an eductor fan -it still worked
but was very noisy. None of the dealers had it in stock - and nor did
the distributor. It was going to be a 3 week minimum wait - so I just
took it out and brazed the hub where the blower wheel was (supposed to
be) fastened to the shaft.

20 minute job, about a buck's worth of brazing rod and gas - and it's
been perfect for something like 8? years.

NO maintenance contract would have managed to solve the problem in
less than 3 weeks.

Don. www.donwiss.com (e-mail link at home page bottom).

On Thu, 04 Oct 2012 12:11:30 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Thu, 04 Oct 2012 08:28:27 -0400, Frank Stein
wrote:

Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Last year, at work, we replaced a 1970's boiler with a new one.
With the old boiler, the heat would come on and make my office
nice and comfy. Then the heat would go off and I'd feel the cold
air down my back until it cycled on again.

With the new boiler, it circulates lower temperature water for a
longer time and I never feel the draft.

There is (or was) nothing stopping you from adjusting the gas-valve
(or thermostat) on the old boiler so that it too would have
circulated lower-temperature water, giving you the same result.

Not exactly. If it was adjusted to a lower flame, it would be at
that constant. This boiler adjusts according to need as determined
by the outside temperature. What works at 40 degrees may not be
adequate at -10 degrees.

It's my experience that many residential forced-air gas furnaces built /
installed 25+ years ago are ridiculously over-sized, especially when you
take into account upgrades to the home like better windows and draft
sealing and more insulation.

Over the past few years, I've found that the throttling-down of my gas
valve on my 36-year-old furnace has served me well over a wide range of
outdoor temeratures (including the few nights we might see -5 f) - and
it hasn't resulted in the phenomena that you suggest.

And even if it did, it's no problem to go down to the furnace and tweak
the dial to give a stronger flame and leave it at that setting for the
next month or so until it gets warmer outside.

Beyond being over-sized, actual efficiency wasn't much in the
calculations. Too much heat for the exchanger, that heat being lost
up the stack.
I throttled the gas on my old hot water system and it cut my gas bill
considerably. Adjusted the air to keep good flame.
It cycled more, but that's what I wanted.

Actually I think you mean it RAN more - it should have cycled less -
which IS what you want. Ideal furnace size will maintain temp on the
coldest day you can expect to experience by running over 80% of the
time. (100% would not be able to recover temperature)

On Thu, 04 Oct 2012 16:52:36 -0400, wrote:

GENERALLY if someone is using
natural gas for heat, they use natural gas for ALL fuelled appliances.
Same with propane. The chances of having a combination of any 2 of
propane, natural gas, oil, or coal in North America is extremely slim.

I mostly agree. But people with oil heat often use natural gas for their
stove. At least they do in my neighborhood where every house has gas, but a
few still use oil to heat. Why baffles me*. Around here it costs three
times as much to heat with oil than gas. And that was a year ago. The
difference may be greater now.

* I have one wealthy neighbor that I have been hassling to change. He
won't. His oil delivery is often at 5:30 in the morning. The truck is huge.
Sometimes my windows vibrate while it sits there. Then it goes through five
gears to get up the hill to my house and then another three gears to get to
the stoplight.

Don. www.donwiss.com (e-mail link at home page bottom).

On Thu, 04 Oct 2012 17:08:35 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 04 Oct 2012 12:11:30 -0500, Vic Smith

I throttled the gas on my old hot water system and it cut my gas bill
considerably. Adjusted the air to keep good flame.
It cycled more, but that's what I wanted.

Actually I think you mean it RAN more - it should have cycled less -
which IS what you want. Ideal furnace size will maintain temp on the
coldest day you can expect to experience by running over 80% of the
time. (100% would not be able to recover temperature)

Yes, that's what I meant. Ran more, for longer cycles.

On Thu, 04 Oct 2012 18:11:07 -0400, Don Wiss
wrote:

On Thu, 04 Oct 2012 16:52:36 -0400, wrote:

GENERALLY if someone is using
natural gas for heat, they use natural gas for ALL fuelled appliances.
Same with propane. The chances of having a combination of any 2 of
propane, natural gas, oil, or coal in North America is extremely slim.

I mostly agree. But people with oil heat often use natural gas for their
stove. At least they do in my neighborhood where every house has gas, but a
few still use oil to heat. Why baffles me*. Around here it costs three
times as much to heat with oil than gas. And that was a year ago. The
difference may be greater now.

* I have one wealthy neighbor that I have been hassling to change. He
won't. His oil delivery is often at 5:30 in the morning. The truck is huge.
Sometimes my windows vibrate while it sits there. Then it goes through five
gears to get up the hill to my house and then another three gears to get to
the stoplight.

Don. www.donwiss.com (e-mail link at home page bottom).

Around here MUCH more likely to cook with electricity if using an oil
furnace. Pretty hard to get the gas company to put in a meter for just
a stove and/or water heater - and if you get the meter in, only a
total fool would continue to heat with oil.

Now oil heat and a PROPANE water heater and/or stove might be a bit
more common - but still electric is a more common combination with oil
- and if you heat with propane, water heat and stove are most commonly
also propane.

Now I DO have a friend who just got Natural Gas installed on the farm
- he has 2 furnaces - one wood and one gas (replaced the oil furnace)
- heats with wood most of the time, but has the gas there for when
they are not home or when they don't want to bother stoking and
babysitting the wood furnace - which burns free firewood from downed
trees etc on the farm.

On Thu, 04 Oct 2012 21:41:18 -0400, wrote:

Around here MUCH more likely to cook with electricity if using an oil
furnace. Pretty hard to get the gas company to put in a meter for just
a stove and/or water heater - and if you get the meter in, only a
total fool would continue to heat with oil.

I'm in Brooklyn and electricity around here is very expensive. My house,
and that neighbor's house, is pre-electric and has had gas since they were
built in 1891.

Yes, the neighbor is a fool. His response is it would be expensive to
convert. My response to him is it costs nothing to get a proposal to find
out. And then he could at least do the math.

Don. www.donwiss.com (e-mail link at home page bottom).

On Thu, 04 Oct 2012 08:28:27 -0400, Frank Stein
wrote:




Over the past few years, I've found that the throttling-down of my gas
valve on my 36-year-old furnace has served me well over a wide range of
outdoor temeratures (including the few nights we might see -5 f) - and
it hasn't resulted in the phenomena that you suggest.

And even if it did, it's no problem to go down to the furnace and tweak
the dial to give a stronger flame and leave it at that setting for the
next month or so until it gets warmer outside.

If it works for you, fine. I'm running a business and don't want to
tweak the gas flame every couple of weeks. I'd rather utilize
technology and save a lot of money on gas. We have other heaters and
boilers too and a January gas bill of $30,000 is about average.

On Thu, 04 Oct 2012 18:11:07 -0400, Don Wiss
wrote:



I mostly agree. But people with oil heat often use natural gas for their
stove. At least they do in my neighborhood where every house has gas, but a
few still use oil to heat. Why baffles me*. Around here it costs three
times as much to heat with oil than gas. And that was a year ago. The
difference may be greater now.

Typical answer "we always had it that way" going back to 1948 or so
when the coal burner was converted to oil.

Other reason is people don't have the money to pay for the conversion
so they pay far more than that over time. They can afford the oil
budget, not the initial $500 to change over.

Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Thu, 04 Oct 2012 18:11:07 -0400, Don Wiss
wrote:



I mostly agree. But people with oil heat often use natural gas for their
stove. At least they do in my neighborhood where every house has gas, but a
few still use oil to heat. Why baffles me*. Around here it costs three
times as much to heat with oil than gas. And that was a year ago. The
difference may be greater now.

Typical answer "we always had it that way" going back to 1948 or so
when the coal burner was converted to oil.

Other reason is people don't have the money to pay for the conversion
so they pay far more than that over time. They can afford the oil
budget, not the initial $500 to change over.

When I moved in, I had oil furnace, electric stove, water heater, dryer. My
electric bill was rather small. I inherited 250 gallons of oil. I got by
first winter by buying additional 150 gallons. Took almost 6 minutes for
furnace exchanger to heat up, then it would output up to 140 degrees out of
registers. That was after I speeded up the fan, and took rug off hidden
return vents. The furnace was literally overheating on each cycle before I
moved in. That furnace would shake the house when it fired up. I prayed it
would last the winter, scary looking thing. Had natural gas line run.
Switched to gas furnace, gas stove, gas water heater, as dryer. Now my
electric bills are higher, gas moderate. Cost around $1000 for gas line. It
was a one day install, gas line, furnace/air. Must have been at least 6
guys working on that. Luckily the gas company man was able to come that
day.

Greg

On Thu, 04 Oct 2012 22:04:40 -0400, Don Wiss
wrote:

On Thu, 04 Oct 2012 21:41:18 -0400, wrote:

Around here MUCH more likely to cook with electricity if using an oil
furnace. Pretty hard to get the gas company to put in a meter for just
a stove and/or water heater - and if you get the meter in, only a
total fool would continue to heat with oil.

I'm in Brooklyn and electricity around here is very expensive. My house,
and that neighbor's house, is pre-electric and has had gas since they were
built in 1891.

Yes, the neighbor is a fool. His response is it would be expensive to
convert. My response to him is it costs nothing to get a proposal to find
out. And then he could at least do the math.

Don. www.donwiss.com (e-mail link at home page bottom).

In my case, just changing to a more efficient oil fired boiler is
paying for itself with savings. Wish I could get gas though.

On Oct 4, 1:11*pm, Vic Smith wrote:
On Thu, 04 Oct 2012 08:28:27 -0400, Frank Stein
wrote:





Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Last year, at work, *we replaced a 1970's boiler with a new one.
*With the old boiler, the heat would come on and make my office
nice and comfy. Then the heat would go off and I'd feel the cold
air down my back until it cycled on again.

With the new boiler, it circulates lower temperature water for a
longer time and I never feel the draft.

There is (or was) nothing stopping you from adjusting the gas-valve
(or thermostat) on the old boiler so that it too would have
circulated lower-temperature water, giving you the same result.

Not exactly. *If it was adjusted to a lower flame, it would be at
that constant. *This boiler adjusts according to need as determined
by the outside temperature. *What works at 40 degrees may not be
adequate at -10 degrees.

It's my experience that many residential forced-air gas furnaces built /
installed 25+ years ago are ridiculously over-sized, especially when you
take into account upgrades to the home like better windows and draft
sealing and more insulation.

Over the past few years, I've found that the throttling-down of my gas
valve *on my 36-year-old furnace has served me well over a wide range of
outdoor temeratures (including the few nights we might see -5 f) - and
it hasn't resulted in the phenomena that you suggest.

And even if it did, it's no problem to go down to the furnace and tweak
the dial to give a stronger flame and leave it at that setting for the
next month or so until it gets warmer outside.

Beyond being over-sized, actual efficiency wasn't much in the
calculations. *Too much heat for the exchanger, that heat being lost
up the stack.


If a 120K BTU is rated at 93% efficient, then it's 93%
efficient. If a 70K BTU furnace is 93% efficient, then it's
93% efficient. Any differences in heat exchanger are
reflected in those numbers.

Now, having a furnace that is too large may lead to
the house having temp swings and some inefficiency
related to the furnace having short cycles. But it has
nothing to do with too much heat for the heat exchanger.

" wrote:

If a 120K BTU is rated at 93% efficient, then it's 93%
efficient. If a 70K BTU furnace is 93% efficient, then it's
93% efficient. Any differences in heat exchanger are
reflected in those numbers.

Efficiency is related to BTU output.

In other words, if the design goal of a furnace is to be able to put out
120k BTU and do it at 93% efficiency, then it's heat exchanger is
designed to accomplish that (by adjusting it's surface area, thickness,
length, air-flow speed, etc).

If that same furnace can alter it's BTU output (multi-stage or variable
burners) then it's efficiency will not necessarily be 93% at other BTU
settings. Most likely it will be MORE efficient at lower BTU outputs.

Same way that a car is spec'd to have a certain MPG under certain
well-controlled conditions - primarily vehicle speed.

In the case of a heat exchanger, all else being equal, you can increase
the efficiency of the heat-exchange process simply by dialing down the
BTU output. The extent that you can do that depends on whether the
amount of heat coming out of the furnace is high enough to match the
heat-loss (of the house) to it's surroundings.

On Fri, 5 Oct 2012 06:10:21 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Oct 4, 1:11Â*pm, Vic Smith wrote:
On Thu, 04 Oct 2012 08:28:27 -0400, Frank Stein


It's my experience that many residential forced-air gas furnaces built /
installed 25+ years ago are ridiculously over-sized, especially when you
take into account upgrades to the home like better windows and draft
sealing and more insulation.

Over the past few years, I've found that the throttling-down of my gas
valve Â*on my 36-year-old furnace has served me well over a wide range of
outdoor temeratures (including the few nights we might see -5 f) - and
it hasn't resulted in the phenomena that you suggest.

And even if it did, it's no problem to go down to the furnace and tweak
the dial to give a stronger flame and leave it at that setting for the
next month or so until it gets warmer outside.

Beyond being over-sized, actual efficiency wasn't much in the
calculations. Â*Too much heat for the exchanger, that heat being lost
up the stack.


If a 120K BTU is rated at 93% efficient, then it's 93%
efficient. If a 70K BTU furnace is 93% efficient, then it's
93% efficient. Any differences in heat exchanger are
reflected in those numbers.

Now, having a furnace that is too large may lead to
the house having temp swings and some inefficiency
related to the furnace having short cycles. But it has
nothing to do with too much heat for the heat exchanger.

That piece of the discussion was about +25 year old systems.
The one I throttled down was probably circa 1950's and back then they
didn't have efficiency ratings.
The burners put out way more heat than the exchanger could use.
My gas bill reduction wasn't a mirage.
Wasn't talking about modern stuff. Nor would I tinker with their
factory settings.

On Oct 5, 9:47*am, Home Guy wrote:
" wrote:
If a 120K BTU is rated at 93% efficient, then it's 93%
efficient. * If a 70K BTU furnace is 93% efficient, then it's
93% efficient. *Any differences in heat exchanger are
reflected in those numbers.

Efficiency is related to BTU output.

In other words, if the design goal of a furnace is to be able to put out
120k BTU and do it at 93% efficiency, then it's heat exchanger is
designed to accomplish that (by adjusting it's surface area, thickness,
length, air-flow speed, etc).

If that same furnace can alter it's BTU output (multi-stage or variable
burners) then it's efficiency will not necessarily be 93% at other BTU
settings. *Most likely it will be MORE efficient at lower BTU outputs.

Yes, I agree with that. If it's capable of firing at a lower
rate, it should be slightly more efficient at the lower
firing rate. So, if it's 93% efficient at 100%, firing at
70%, maybe it's 94% efficient. But it's the basic
overall design that makes the big difference. You
can't turn an 80% furnace into a 93% furnace by
just lowering the firing rate. With a furnace that is
rated at 93% when firing at 100%, it's already
extracted almost all the heat available. The steam
is condensed and the air coming out is barely warm.
Lowering the firing rate isn't going to extract much
more heat because there just isn't much left to
be extracted.



Same way that a car is spec'd to have a certain MPG under certain
well-controlled conditions - primarily vehicle speed.

Except that the difference is there can be a huge variation
in vehicle speed, grading, load, etc. which gives a big
difference in fuel consumption.







In the case of a heat exchanger, all else being equal, you can increase
the efficiency of the heat-exchange process simply by dialing down the
BTU output. *The extent that you can do that depends on whether the
amount of heat coming out of the furnace is high enough to match the
heat-loss (of the house) to it's surroundings.

And with a condensing high efficiency furnace almost all
that available heat has been extracted, even when it's
firing at 100% output.

Ed Pawlowski wrote:

If it works for you, fine. I'm running a business and don't want to
tweak the gas flame every couple of weeks. I'd rather utilize
technology and save a lot of money on gas. We have other heaters and
boilers too and a January gas bill of $30,000 is about average.

I've bought 2 HE furnaces in the past few years -- a 95% Bryant and a
98% York.

The biggest differences a

The Bryant has a variable-speed DC blower motor which is supposedly
more efficient than an AC motor. The motor runs continuously 24/7, at
least at the lowest speed, to help keep the air at a more even temp.

The York has a continuously-variable (100 steps) combustion unit
instead of the 3-step unit in the Bryant.

Both are VERY quiet, and are largely unnoticeable except in the rare
times they go to 100% output. I don't know if there is any real
measurable difference in gas usage between them.

On Fri, 5 Oct 2012, John Weiss wrote:

Both are VERY quiet, and are largely unnoticeable except in the rare
times they go to 100% output.

This can happen if you setback the temperature at night, and then it goes
all out in the morning to get back to the daytime set point.

My Carrier has a setting where I can reduce the maximum fan speed. As the
thermostat is prospective, it will have to start earlier in order to be at
the set point when it is supposed to be.

Don. www.donwiss.com (e-mail link at home page bottom).

Our profession is to care about your need of heating in winter and cooling in summer, we deliver our best, so can get most from the High Efficiency Furnace and Central Air Conditioner. Our numerous happy homeowners is key to our success in the field of heating & cooling services. Clean Air offers its service in Toronto, Mississauga and all over GTA Areas. Our HVAC (Heating Ventilation and Air Conditioning) brands are Lennox and Amana.

We carry complete range of Heating and Cooling Toronto products that includes,

High Efficiency Furnaces
High Efficiency Boilers
Tankless Water Heater
Central Air Conditioners
Heat Pumps
Duct Less Air Conditioners
Wi-Fi Programmable Thermostat
Gas Furnace Filters
IAQ (Indoor Air Quality) extensive products range

source: http://www.cleanairheat.ca/

On Friday, October 5, 2012 11:11:51 PM UTC-4, Don Wiss wrote:
On Fri, 5 Oct 2012, John Weiss wrote:



Both are VERY quiet, and are largely unnoticeable except in the rare

times they go to 100% output.



This can happen if you setback the temperature at night, and then it goes

all out in the morning to get back to the daytime set point.



My Carrier has a setting where I can reduce the maximum fan speed. As the

thermostat is prospective, it will have to start earlier in order to be at

the set point when it is supposed to be.



Don. www.donwiss.com (e-mail link at home page bottom).

I have a 3 year old Rheem, two stage, and it's very quiet at both
stages. I can't tell the difference between the two, whether upstairs
or next to the furnace, unless I'm standing next to the furnace when
it goes from low to high. Then there is a slight increase in the
combustion noise.

On 1/2/2014 12:13 AM, wrote:
Our profession is to care about your need of heating in winter and cooling in summer, we deliver our best, so can get most from the High Efficiency Furnace and Central Air Conditioner. Our numerous happy homeowners is key to our success in the field of heating & cooling services. Clean Air offers its service in Toronto, Mississauga and all over GTA Areas. Our HVAC (Heating Ventilation and Air Conditioning) brands are Lennox and Amana.

We carry complete range of Heating and Cooling Toronto products that includes,

High Efficiency Furnaces
High Efficiency Boilers
Tankless Water Heater
Central Air Conditioners
Heat Pumps
Duct Less Air Conditioners
Wi-Fi Programmable Thermostat
Gas Furnace Filters
IAQ (Indoor Air Quality) extensive products range

source: http://www.cleanairheat.ca/


What do you guys charge for a service call to Birmingham, Al. ? ^_^

TDD

The Daring Dufas posted for all of us...

And I know how to SNIP


On 1/2/2014 12:13 AM, wrote:
Our profession is to care about your need of heating in winter and cooling in summer, we deliver our best, so can get most from the High Efficiency Furnace and Central Air Conditioner. Our numerous happy homeowners is key to our success in the field of heating & cooling services. Clean Air offers its service in Toronto, Mississauga and all over GTA Areas. Our HVAC (Heating Ventilation and Air Conditioning) brands are Lennox and Amana.

We carry complete range of Heating and Cooling Toronto products that includes,

High Efficiency Furnaces
High Efficiency Boilers
Tankless Water Heater
Central Air Conditioners
Heat Pumps
Duct Less Air Conditioners
Wi-Fi Programmable Thermostat
Gas Furnace Filters
IAQ (Indoor Air Quality) extensive products range

source: http://www.cleanairheat.ca/


What do you guys charge for a service call to Birmingham, Al. ? ^_^

TDD

How much ya got?

--
Tekkie