Our home has a Lennox HVAC system installed by the previous owner a
little less than 10 years ago. The A/C unit has an SEER rating of
approx. 11, which is low by current standards. How practical and
cost-effective is it likely to be just to replace the condenser and
compressor units and keep the existing plumbing? And what about adding a
heat pump for winter heating (or pre-heating of the air before it gets
to the furnace)? This is in W. Michigan, if that makes a difference.

Perce

On Mon, 18 Jun 2012 18:18:30 -0400, "Percival P. Cassidy"
wrote Re A/C upgrade?:

Our home has a Lennox HVAC system installed by the previous owner a
little less than 10 years ago. The A/C unit has an SEER rating of
approx. 11, which is low by current standards. How practical and
cost-effective is it likely to be just to replace the condenser and
compressor units and keep the existing plumbing?

If there is nothing wrong with the A/C unit functioning and you just
want to replace it to get a higher SEER rating; I would say that it is
NOT at all cost effective.

And what about adding a
heat pump for winter heating (or pre-heating of the air before it gets
to the furnace)? This is in W. Michigan, if that makes a difference.

Location makes a big difference. An air-source heat pump efficiency
drops to that of electric resistance heating at around 37F. Actually,
at around that outside temp, the heat pump switches to electric
resistance heating.

If you are interested in saving $$$, concentrate on insulation and
weather proofing.

On 6/18/2012 5:18 PM, Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
Our home has a Lennox HVAC system installed by the previous owner a
little less than 10 years ago. The A/C unit has an SEER rating of
approx. 11, which is low by current standards. How practical and
cost-effective is it likely to be just to replace the condenser and
compressor units and keep the existing plumbing? And what about adding a
heat pump for winter heating (or pre-heating of the air before it gets
to the furnace)? This is in W. Michigan, if that makes a difference.

Perce

any modern heatpump/ac unit with a higher seer is gonna need a new
lineset and A (or N) coil. Do it up right. Replace all the pieces.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

On 6/18/2012 5:39 PM, CRNG wrote:
On Mon, 18 Jun 2012 18:18:30 -0400, "Percival P. Cassidy"
wrote Re A/C upgrade?:

Our home has a Lennox HVAC system installed by the previous owner a
little less than 10 years ago. The A/C unit has an SEER rating of
approx. 11, which is low by current standards. How practical and
cost-effective is it likely to be just to replace the condenser and
compressor units and keep the existing plumbing?

If there is nothing wrong with the A/C unit functioning and you just
want to replace it to get a higher SEER rating; I would say that it is
NOT at all cost effective.

And what about adding a
heat pump for winter heating (or pre-heating of the air before it gets
to the furnace)? This is in W. Michigan, if that makes a difference.

Location makes a big difference. An air-source heat pump efficiency
drops to that of electric resistance heating at around 37F. Actually,
at around that outside temp, the heat pump switches to electric
resistance heating.


that is assuming that the systems uses electric heat as a backup. Mine
is a natural gas furnace that it switches over to when it decides it
can't do it on heat pump anymore. It also depends on the size of the
unit. We have one rental we purposely had the guy oversize the system
(we were hoping to add on and finish the attic) and it will
successfully heatpump all the way into the lower 20's.




If you are interested in saving $$$, concentrate on insulation and
weather proofing.


--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

On Mon, 18 Jun 2012 18:18:30 -0400, "Percival P. Cassidy"
wrote:

Our home has a Lennox HVAC system installed by the previous owner a
little less than 10 years ago. The A/C unit has an SEER rating of
approx. 11, which is low by current standards. How practical and
cost-effective is it likely to be just to replace the condenser and
compressor units and keep the existing plumbing? And what about adding a
heat pump for winter heating (or pre-heating of the air before it gets
to the furnace)? This is in W. Michigan, if that makes a difference.

Perce

I cannot speak to the heat pump. In order to match the SEER rating for
the compressor and the furnace, they should both be replaced at the
same time... a matching set. It's what I had done after 12 years of an
older 10 SEER rated unit.

YMMV.

Probably won't do much good, for your electric bill.

Most of what's for sale by contractors now days is "puron" which is not
compatible with R-22.

You can save a pile of electric, by having the outdoor unit professionally
cleaned. The tech should spray it with the hose, pour purple liquid stuff
on, wait 3 to 5 minutes, rinse. Should be washed twice, or three. That will
remove the dirt, and restore the efficiency.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Percival P. Cassidy" wrote in message
...
Our home has a Lennox HVAC system installed by the previous owner a
little less than 10 years ago. The A/C unit has an SEER rating of
approx. 11, which is low by current standards. How practical and
cost-effective is it likely to be just to replace the condenser and
compressor units and keep the existing plumbing? And what about adding a
heat pump for winter heating (or pre-heating of the air before it gets
to the furnace)? This is in W. Michigan, if that makes a difference.

Perce

On 6/18/2012 8:17 PM, Oren wrote:
On Mon, 18 Jun 2012 18:18:30 -0400, "Percival P. Cassidy"
wrote:

Our home has a Lennox HVAC system installed by the previous owner a
little less than 10 years ago. The A/C unit has an SEER rating of
approx. 11, which is low by current standards. How practical and
cost-effective is it likely to be just to replace the condenser and
compressor units and keep the existing plumbing? And what about adding a
heat pump for winter heating (or pre-heating of the air before it gets
to the furnace)? This is in W. Michigan, if that makes a difference.

Perce

I cannot speak to the heat pump. In order to match the SEER rating for
the compressor and the furnace, they should both be replaced at the
same time... a matching set. It's what I had done after 12 years of an
older 10 SEER rated unit.

YMMV.


I have a 14 year old 10 seer that improved with a new variable speed
blower and recharged refridgerant and hosing out the colling fins of all
the dust and bugs.

I'm curious if you have any numbers or data or something to share with
me/us about upgrading from a 12 year old 10 seer to what you have now.

I considered upgrading to a 14 or 14.5 seer but quite frankly didn't see
a payoff. The prices of the units rose when the governments had rebates
and now that those rebates are gone, magically the price of those units
fell and that soured me on replaced my a/c unit....

On Mon, 18 Jun 2012 21:38:26 -0400, Duesenberg wrote:

On 6/18/2012 8:17 PM, Oren wrote:
On Mon, 18 Jun 2012 18:18:30 -0400, "Percival P. Cassidy"
wrote:

Our home has a Lennox HVAC system installed by the previous owner a
little less than 10 years ago. The A/C unit has an SEER rating of
approx. 11, which is low by current standards. How practical and
cost-effective is it likely to be just to replace the condenser and
compressor units and keep the existing plumbing? And what about adding a
heat pump for winter heating (or pre-heating of the air before it gets
to the furnace)? This is in W. Michigan, if that makes a difference.

Perce

I cannot speak to the heat pump. In order to match the SEER rating for
the compressor and the furnace, they should both be replaced at the
same time... a matching set. It's what I had done after 12 years of an
older 10 SEER rated unit.

YMMV.


I have a 14 year old 10 seer that improved with a new variable speed
blower and recharged refridgerant and hosing out the colling fins of all
the dust and bugs.

I'm curious if you have any numbers or data or something to share with
me/us about upgrading from a 12 year old 10 seer to what you have now.

I considered upgrading to a 14 or 14.5 seer but quite frankly didn't see
a payoff. The prices of the units rose when the governments had rebates
and now that those rebates are gone, magically the price of those units
fell and that soured me on replaced my a/c unit....
The operating cost difference between a 10 seer and a 13 seer is
about 3 percent.

A 2.5 ton 10 seer unit will give you about 3000 BTU of cooling for
3000 watts A 13 seer unit will give you the same 3000 BTU for roughly
2307 watts. The savings between the 2 if the AC runs 18 hours a day is
12.4 Kw Hours (3000-2307x18/1000).

If electricity costs $0.11 per kWh that is $1.36 per day
Going to a 14 seer from a 13 saves another $0.31, more or less.

What's the cost of a new 13 or 14 seer unit, installed, with a service
contract (you do NOT want a leading edge technology system without
it)?

Let's just grab $3000 out of the hat, and say your A/C unit runs the
equivalent of 180 days a year, 18 hours a day. Don't know where you
live in Western Michigan, or what your daily average mean temps are
etc - so again ot's just a number pulled out of the hat. If you went
from 10 seer to 14 seer and saved $1.67 per day in power used, the
savings would take 1796 operating days, or with out assumption og 180
standard days a year, 10 full years to pay for itself.

Southwestern Ontario and Western Michigan may be quite similar
climate-wize - and if so, mine seldom runs more than 9 hours a day,
and an average year perhaps 30 days - for an average much closer to 21
9 hour days. My savings going to a 14 seer would therefore be a whole
lot closer to $0.85 a day, for 21 days a year -or Less than $21 per
year. Say I'm off by almost 50%- I run the system for a whole month,
every day, 9 hours a day, for a $30 per year savings and that is still
100 years to pay for the high seer unit!!!

And my bet is you won't replace your system for $3000 either.

On Mon, 18 Jun 2012 22:43:50 -0400, wrote Re
A/C upgrade?:

And my bet is you won't replace your system for $3000 either.

Excellent cost analysis.

On Jun 18, 6:39*pm, CRNG wrote:
On Mon, 18 Jun 2012 18:18:30 -0400, "Percival P. Cassidy"
wrote Re A/C upgrade?:

Our home has a Lennox HVAC system installed by the previous owner a
little less than 10 years ago. The A/C unit has an SEER rating of
approx. 11, which is low by current standards. How practical and
cost-effective is it likely to be just to replace the condenser and
compressor units and keep the existing plumbing?

If there is nothing wrong with the A/C unit functioning and you just
want to replace it to get a higher SEER rating; I would say that it is
NOT at all cost effective.

And what about adding a
heat pump for winter heating (or pre-heating of the air before it gets
to the furnace)? This is in W. Michigan, if that makes a difference.

Location makes a big difference. *An air-source heat pump efficiency
drops to that of electric resistance heating at around 37F.

That's incorrect. While the heat pump efficiency drops as the
temperature decreases, with a modern heat pump
it's still well above that of
resistance heating until the temp is in the low teens or
single digits. The bigger problem is that with a reasonable size
system you just can't get enough heat out of it at lower temps
to make it practical for the amount of heat you need in colder
climate. That's why it has to start using resistance heat
as a supplement.


Actually,
at around that outside temp, the heat pump switches to electric
resistance heating.

Not true with a new modern one.


If you are interested in saving $$$, concentrate on insulation and
weather proofing.

Always a good place to start.

On Jun 18, 6:50*pm, Steve Barker wrote:
On 6/18/2012 5:18 PM, Percival P. Cassidy wrote:

Our home has a Lennox HVAC system installed by the previous owner a
little less than 10 years ago. The A/C unit has an SEER rating of
approx. 11, which is low by current standards. How practical and
cost-effective is it likely to be just to replace the condenser and
compressor units and keep the existing plumbing? And what about adding a
heat pump for winter heating (or pre-heating of the air before it gets
to the furnace)? This is in W. Michigan, if that makes a difference.

Perce

any modern heatpump/ac unit with a higher seer is gonna need a new
lineset and A (or N) coil. *Do it up right. *Replace all the pieces.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

It definitely needs a new coil to be matched with the
compressor. However as long as the existing lineset is in good
shape, they can be re-used as long as they are properly flushed. If
it's 25 years old and easy to replace, I would. If it's 10 years old
and installed inside
walls, etc that would make it difficult, then I'd consider
re-using it. The cost of the copper tubing is only about
$250.

I agree with the advice that suggests the payback time
of a new, higher efficiency system is going to be long.
How fast it pays back depends on the cost of electricity
and how much the system is used. Also factor in rebates
that may be available from utilities, states, etc. The time
to have considered this was 2 years ago when there was
a 30% fed tax credit. Given the area, I doubt the math
will make it a viable option.

Heat pump is going to also depend on the cost of
electricity and alternate fuel costs. Again, given the
northern climate I doubt a heat pump system is going
to work out economically. It would likely have to be
dual fuel or ground water based and both of those
drive the price up.

CRNG wrote:
On Mon, 18 Jun 2012 22:43:50 -0400, wrote Re
A/C upgrade?:

And my bet is you won't replace your system for $3000 either.

Excellent cost analysis.

But what about the children?

If we use up all the electricity today, there won't be any left for our
children and grandchildren.

On Tue, 19 Jun 2012 07:33:06 -0500, "HeyBub"
wrote:

CRNG wrote:
On Mon, 18 Jun 2012 22:43:50 -0400, wrote Re
A/C upgrade?:

And my bet is you won't replace your system for $3000 either.

Excellent cost analysis.

But what about the children?

If we use up all the electricity today, there won't be any left for our
children and grandchildren.

Turn the AC thermostat up 2 degrees and you save more electricity than
going from 10seer to 14 seer.

On 06/19/12 12:56 pm, wrote:

A/C upgrade?:

And my bet is you won't replace your system for $3000 either.

Excellent cost analysis.

But what about the children?

If we use up all the electricity today, there won't be any left for our
children and grandchildren.

Turn the AC thermostat up 2 degrees and you save more electricity than
going from 10seer to 14 seer.

We already run our A/C with a temp. setting of 74 or 75 F, and I
wouldn't bother with a new unit with an SEER of only 14 (compared to the
present 11) when there are now units with a claimed SEER of 20+ -- but I
have no idea how much those cost.

Perce

On Jun 19, 2:24*pm, "Percival P. Cassidy" wrote:
On 06/19/12 12:56 pm, wrote:

A/C upgrade?:

And my bet is you won't replace your system for $3000 either.

Excellent cost analysis.

But what about the children?

If we use up all the electricity today, there won't be any left for our
children and grandchildren.

Turn the AC thermostat up 2 degrees and you save more electricity than
going from 10seer to 14 seer.

We already run our A/C with a temp. setting of 74 or 75 F, and I
wouldn't bother with a new unit with an SEER of only 14 (compared to the
present 11) when there are now units with a claimed SEER of 20+ -- but I
have no idea how much those cost.

Perce

I looked at AC units a couple years ago. I concluded that
the extra $$ for anything above 14 or 15 just wasn't worth it. But I
was looking at 5 tons, where it's harder to get higher efficiency than
in smalle units. It obviously depends on the cost of electricity and
the climate. You
also have to factor in paying out upfront and what
happens if the unit craps out before you recover the
extra $$, or you move, etc.

More than the electric, I'd guess.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Percival P. Cassidy" wrote in message
...

We already run our A/C with a temp. setting of 74 or 75 F, and I
wouldn't bother with a new unit with an SEER of only 14 (compared to the
present 11) when there are now units with a claimed SEER of 20+ -- but I
have no idea how much those cost.

Perce

On 6/18/2012 10:43 PM, wrote:

And my bet is you won't replace your system for $3000 either.

Two years ago, I replaced a 23 year old, 2 ton, 8.4 SEER AC with a 2 ton
13 SEER for $2500.
A 14 SEER would been $1000 more.

On Tue, 19 Jun 2012 14:24:10 -0400, "Percival P. Cassidy"
wrote:

On 06/19/12 12:56 pm, wrote:

A/C upgrade?:

And my bet is you won't replace your system for $3000 either.

Excellent cost analysis.

But what about the children?

If we use up all the electricity today, there won't be any left for our
children and grandchildren.

Turn the AC thermostat up 2 degrees and you save more electricity than
going from 10seer to 14 seer.

We already run our A/C with a temp. setting of 74 or 75 F, and I
wouldn't bother with a new unit with an SEER of only 14 (compared to the
present 11) when there are now units with a claimed SEER of 20+ -- but I
have no idea how much those cost.

Perce
Emphasis heavilly on "claimed"

On Tue, 19 Jun 2012 18:33:54 -0400, Congoleum Breckenridge
wrote:

On 6/18/2012 10:43 PM, wrote:

And my bet is you won't replace your system for $3000 either.

Two years ago, I replaced a 23 year old, 2 ton, 8.4 SEER AC with a 2 ton
13 SEER for $2500.
A 14 SEER would been $1000 more.
This spring I replaced a working 38 year old 2 ton unit - likely 6.X
seer or thereabouts, with a 5 year old unit - likely 11 or 12 seer,
for a total cost of less than $200.
That replacement was money in the bank - and peace of mind with a hot
summer forcast.

Today was a scorcher - about 33 degrees C - record high for june 19 -
and my AC has run about 4.5 hours as of 10 pm. My payback period even
for the low cost of replacing my old unit will take me well past
retirement.

On Jun 19, 9:57*pm, wrote:
On Tue, 19 Jun 2012 18:33:54 -0400, Congoleum Breckenridge

wrote:
On 6/18/2012 10:43 PM, wrote:

And my bet is you won't replace your system for $3000 either.

Two years ago, I replaced a 23 year old, 2 ton, 8.4 SEER AC with a 2 ton
13 SEER for $2500.
A 14 SEER would been $1000 more.

*This spring I replaced a working 38 year old 2 ton unit - likely 6.X
seer or thereabouts, with a *5 year old unit - likely 11 or 12 seer,
for a total cost of less than $200.
That replacement was money in the bank - and peace of mind with a hot
summer forcast.

Which neighbor is missing their system?




*Today was a scorcher - about 33 degrees C - record high for june 19 -
and my AC has run about 4.5 hours as of 10 pm. *My payback period even
for the low cost of replacing my old unit will take me well past
retirement.

On 6/19/2012 9:57 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 19 Jun 2012 18:33:54 -0400, Congoleum Breckenridge
wrote:

On 6/18/2012 10:43 PM, wrote:

And my bet is you won't replace your system for $3000 either.

Two years ago, I replaced a 23 year old, 2 ton, 8.4 SEER AC with a 2 ton
13 SEER for $2500.
A 14 SEER would been $1000 more.
This spring I replaced a working 38 year old 2 ton unit - likely 6.X
seer or thereabouts, with a 5 year old unit - likely 11 or 12 seer,
for a total cost of less than $200.
That replacement was money in the bank - and peace of mind with a hot
summer forcast.

Today was a scorcher - about 33 degrees C - record high for june 19 -
and my AC has run about 4.5 hours as of 10 pm. My payback period even
for the low cost of replacing my old unit will take me well past
retirement.


I'm in Halton region, and not near the lake either. It was still 30 C
at 11 pm.

I've got a 1.5 ton 10 seer that seems fine and we keep ours at 77 during
day and 73 from 10 pm to 3 am and 75 from 3am. House is 1700 sq feet.

I priced out a budget brand 14 seer that was $3700 locally from a
reputable firm before government rebates of about $350 to $500. I can't
quite remember what I qualified for. Higher end brands were about $4200
I think. When some of the rebates ended that higher end brand fell to
about $3800 during the off-season.

wrote:
This spring I replaced a working 38 year old 2 ton unit - likely 6.X
seer or thereabouts, with a 5 year old unit - likely 11 or 12 seer,
for a total cost of less than $200.
That replacement was money in the bank - and peace of mind with a hot
summer forcast.


Outstanding !

wrote:
On Tue, 19 Jun 2012 18:33:54 -0400, Congoleum Breckenridge
wrote:

On 6/18/2012 10:43 PM, wrote:

And my bet is you won't replace your system for $3000 either.

Two years ago, I replaced a 23 year old, 2 ton, 8.4 SEER AC with a 2 ton
13 SEER for $2500.
A 14 SEER would been $1000 more.
This spring I replaced a working 38 year old 2 ton unit - likely 6.X
seer or thereabouts, with a 5 year old unit - likely 11 or 12 seer,
for a total cost of less than $200.
That replacement was money in the bank - and peace of mind with a hot
summer forcast.

Today was a scorcher - about 33 degrees C - record high for june 19 -
and my AC has run about 4.5 hours as of 10 pm. My payback period even
for the low cost of replacing my old unit will take me well past
retirement.


Hmmm,
2 years ago I had Carrier 3 ton 13 SEER performance series with N coil,
X-fer valve for 2500.00 all inclusive. A buddy of mine in the business
installed it.

On Wed, 20 Jun 2012 08:20:02 -0400, Duesenberg wrote:

On 6/19/2012 9:57 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 19 Jun 2012 18:33:54 -0400, Congoleum Breckenridge
wrote:

On 6/18/2012 10:43 PM, wrote:

And my bet is you won't replace your system for $3000 either.

Two years ago, I replaced a 23 year old, 2 ton, 8.4 SEER AC with a 2 ton
13 SEER for $2500.
A 14 SEER would been $1000 more.
This spring I replaced a working 38 year old 2 ton unit - likely 6.X
seer or thereabouts, with a 5 year old unit - likely 11 or 12 seer,
for a total cost of less than $200.
That replacement was money in the bank - and peace of mind with a hot
summer forcast.

Today was a scorcher - about 33 degrees C - record high for june 19 -
and my AC has run about 4.5 hours as of 10 pm. My payback period even
for the low cost of replacing my old unit will take me well past
retirement.


I'm in Halton region, and not near the lake either. It was still 30 C
at 11 pm.

I've got a 1.5 ton 10 seer that seems fine and we keep ours at 77 during
day and 73 from 10 pm to 3 am and 75 from 3am. House is 1700 sq feet.

I priced out a budget brand 14 seer that was $3700 locally from a
reputable firm before government rebates of about $350 to $500. I can't
quite remember what I qualified for. Higher end brands were about $4200
I think. When some of the rebates ended that higher end brand fell to
about $3800 during the off-season.
Here in Waterloo the AC has run 7 hours and 19 minutes as of 11:02
PM today. Thermostat is at 26C That's 78.8F for our Yankee friends.
It was 32 today with humidity in the 45-60 range. 5 year old 2 ton
unit salvaged from the neighbours when they upgraded to a higher SEER
unit - replaced my 38 year old unit this spring

My house is about 2350 sq ft 2 story, plus finished basement and about
a foot and a half of insulation in the attic .Big tree on the SW
corner, another on the west side, and another at the NE corner which
provide some wall shading but virtually no roof shading.
The extra attic insulation was the best energy investment I ever
made. (have never spent $700 a year on natural gas, and I have a
non-condensing furnace)