I have a commercial building with about five thermostats for
heating. They are of the non-smart variety, maintaining the same
temperature regardless of time of day, with only a pair of 24v
contacts leading to them.

Given that it is a 10,000 square foot building, this is costing me a
lot of money spent on unnecessary heating during nighttime.

During the day, I want the temp to be 47 degrees, and at night, I
would be happy with 38 degrees or so.

Do programmable thermostats need a separate power supply, or can they
run themselves from just a pair of 24v wires that they open and close?

In other words, if I buy and install programmable thermostats, will I
have to run any additional wiring?

Thanks
i

On 12/31/2011 10:10 PM, Ignoramus21023 wrote:
I have a commercial building with about five thermostats for
heating. They are of the non-smart variety, maintaining the same
temperature regardless of time of day, with only a pair of 24v
contacts leading to them.

Given that it is a 10,000 square foot building, this is costing me a
lot of money spent on unnecessary heating during nighttime.

During the day, I want the temp to be 47 degrees, and at night, I
would be happy with 38 degrees or so.

Do programmable thermostats need a separate power supply, or can they
run themselves from just a pair of 24v wires that they open and close?

In other words, if I buy and install programmable thermostats, will I
have to run any additional wiring?

Thanks
i

I think if your thermostat uses power it'll require at least three
conductors. Unless you can find a battery-powered thermostat?

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On 12/31/2011 9:10 PM, Ignoramus21023 wrote:
I have a commercial building with about five thermostats for
heating. They are of the non-smart variety, maintaining the same
temperature regardless of time of day, with only a pair of 24v
contacts leading to them.

Given that it is a 10,000 square foot building, this is costing me a
lot of money spent on unnecessary heating during nighttime.

During the day, I want the temp to be 47 degrees, and at night, I
would be happy with 38 degrees or so.

Do programmable thermostats need a separate power supply, or can they
run themselves from just a pair of 24v wires that they open and close?

In other words, if I buy and install programmable thermostats, will I
have to run any additional wiring?

Thanks
i

Most electronic thermostats have a battery compartment for two AA or AAA
batteries with an option for powering the T-stat from the 24 volt supply
but you usually find more than 2 conductors in a thermostat cable. Most
thermostat cable has 5 wires colored white, red, green, blue and yellow.
Normally red is the hot wire with blue being ground or common. A
mechanical heat/cool thermostat will use all but the blue wire. A heat
only thermostat will use red and white but green will used if the fan
can be turned on without the heat. Unit heaters, the type you may see
hanging from the ceiling in a lot of warehouses are usually controlled
using only two conductor cable. A programmable thermostat can work with
a two wire system if you remember to change the batteries once a year.

TDD

Nate Nagel wrote:
On 12/31/2011 10:10 PM, Ignoramus21023 wrote:
I have a commercial building with about five thermostats for
heating. They are of the non-smart variety, maintaining the same
temperature regardless of time of day, with only a pair of 24v
contacts leading to them.

Given that it is a 10,000 square foot building, this is costing me a
lot of money spent on unnecessary heating during nighttime.

During the day, I want the temp to be 47 degrees, and at night, I
would be happy with 38 degrees or so.

Do programmable thermostats need a separate power supply, or can they
run themselves from just a pair of 24v wires that they open and close?

In other words, if I buy and install programmable thermostats, will I
have to run any additional wiring?

Thanks
i

I think if your thermostat uses power it'll require at least three
conductors. Unless you can find a battery-powered thermostat?

nate

Hi,
Yes, if three leads coming into present 'stat for blower, heat, 24V AC
control power lead, you can have programmable 'stat easily. Just make
sure the 'stat you will get has enough wide range of temp. settings.

On Sat, 31 Dec 2011 21:10:23 -0600, Ignoramus21023
wrote:




During the day, I want the temp to be 47 degrees, and at night, I
would be happy with 38 degrees or so.

Do programmable thermostats need a separate power supply, or can they
run themselves from just a pair of 24v wires that they open and close?


No wiring needed. Programmable stat use batteries to power the clock
but the same wires are all that is needed to make them work.

You will find that they have a minimum setting of 40 degrees. Yeah,
33 would save fuel, but 40 give a safety factor in case the heater
break down.

I've had good experience with Honeywell and White-Rodgers. We have a
couple dozen or so in our building.

On 2012-01-01, Nate Nagel wrote:
On 12/31/2011 10:10 PM, Ignoramus21023 wrote:
I have a commercial building with about five thermostats for
heating. They are of the non-smart variety, maintaining the same
temperature regardless of time of day, with only a pair of 24v
contacts leading to them.

Given that it is a 10,000 square foot building, this is costing me a
lot of money spent on unnecessary heating during nighttime.

During the day, I want the temp to be 47 degrees, and at night, I
would be happy with 38 degrees or so.

Do programmable thermostats need a separate power supply, or can they
run themselves from just a pair of 24v wires that they open and close?

In other words, if I buy and install programmable thermostats, will I
have to run any additional wiring?

Thanks
i

I think if your thermostat uses power it'll require at least three
conductors. Unless you can find a battery-powered thermostat?

This is the crux of my question. Supposedly, some thermostats can
charge their batteries from two 24v leads when not closing the
contact, and use the battery when closing contacts.

i

On 2012-01-01, Tony Hwang wrote:


Nate Nagel wrote:
On 12/31/2011 10:10 PM, Ignoramus21023 wrote:
I have a commercial building with about five thermostats for
heating. They are of the non-smart variety, maintaining the same
temperature regardless of time of day, with only a pair of 24v
contacts leading to them.

Given that it is a 10,000 square foot building, this is costing me a
lot of money spent on unnecessary heating during nighttime.

During the day, I want the temp to be 47 degrees, and at night, I
would be happy with 38 degrees or so.

Do programmable thermostats need a separate power supply, or can they
run themselves from just a pair of 24v wires that they open and close?

In other words, if I buy and install programmable thermostats, will I
have to run any additional wiring?

Thanks
i

I think if your thermostat uses power it'll require at least three
conductors. Unless you can find a battery-powered thermostat?

nate

Hi,
Yes, if three leads coming into present 'stat for blower, heat, 24V AC
control power lead, you can have programmable 'stat easily. Just make
sure the 'stat you will get has enough wide range of temp. settings.

I have only two leads.

i

On 2012-01-01, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 12/31/2011 9:10 PM, Ignoramus21023 wrote:
I have a commercial building with about five thermostats for
heating. They are of the non-smart variety, maintaining the same
temperature regardless of time of day, with only a pair of 24v
contacts leading to them.

Given that it is a 10,000 square foot building, this is costing me a
lot of money spent on unnecessary heating during nighttime.

During the day, I want the temp to be 47 degrees, and at night, I
would be happy with 38 degrees or so.

Do programmable thermostats need a separate power supply, or can they
run themselves from just a pair of 24v wires that they open and close?

In other words, if I buy and install programmable thermostats, will I
have to run any additional wiring?

Thanks
i

Most electronic thermostats have a battery compartment for two AA or AAA
batteries with an option for powering the T-stat from the 24 volt supply
but you usually find more than 2 conductors in a thermostat cable. Most
thermostat cable has 5 wires colored white, red, green, blue and yellow.
Normally red is the hot wire with blue being ground or common. A
mechanical heat/cool thermostat will use all but the blue wire. A heat
only thermostat will use red and white but green will used if the fan
can be turned on without the heat. Unit heaters, the type you may see
hanging from the ceiling in a lot of warehouses are usually controlled
using only two conductor cable. A programmable thermostat can work with
a two wire system if you remember to change the batteries once a year.

TDD

If it is once a year or even once per quarter, I can live with it.

On 2012-01-01, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Sat, 31 Dec 2011 21:10:23 -0600, Ignoramus21023
wrote:




During the day, I want the temp to be 47 degrees, and at night, I
would be happy with 38 degrees or so.

Do programmable thermostats need a separate power supply, or can they
run themselves from just a pair of 24v wires that they open and close?


No wiring needed. Programmable stat use batteries to power the clock
but the same wires are all that is needed to make them work.

You will find that they have a minimum setting of 40 degrees. Yeah,
33 would save fuel, but 40 give a safety factor in case the heater
break down.

I've had good experience with Honeywell and White-Rodgers. We have a
couple dozen or so in our building.

And those, are two wire programmable thermostats with a battery? Right?

On Dec 31 2011, 10:10*pm, Ignoramus21023 ignoramus21...@NOSPAM.
21023.invalid wrote:
I have a commercial building with about five thermostats for
heating. They are of the non-smart variety, maintaining the same
temperature regardless of time of day, with only a pair of 24v
contacts leading to them.

Given that it is a 10,000 square foot building, this is costing me a
lot of money spent on unnecessary heating during nighttime.

During the day, I want the temp to be 47 degrees, and at night, I
would be happy with 38 degrees or so.

Do programmable thermostats need a separate power supply, or can they
run themselves from just a pair of 24v wires that they open and close?

In other words, if I buy and install programmable thermostats, will I
have to run any additional wiring?

Thanks
i

If you think it is costing you a lot of money on unnecessary heating
just wait until you have a pipe burst when you try to save money by
turning the heat down lower...

A setback to 38 degrees is too close to freezing considering that
it might be colder further away from the thermostat location...

On 12/31/2011 11:24 PM, Ignoramus21023 wrote:
On 2012-01-01, The Daring wrote:
On 12/31/2011 9:10 PM, Ignoramus21023 wrote:
I have a commercial building with about five thermostats for
heating. They are of the non-smart variety, maintaining the same
temperature regardless of time of day, with only a pair of 24v
contacts leading to them.

Given that it is a 10,000 square foot building, this is costing me a
lot of money spent on unnecessary heating during nighttime.

During the day, I want the temp to be 47 degrees, and at night, I
would be happy with 38 degrees or so.

Do programmable thermostats need a separate power supply, or can they
run themselves from just a pair of 24v wires that they open and close?

In other words, if I buy and install programmable thermostats, will I
have to run any additional wiring?

Thanks
i

Most electronic thermostats have a battery compartment for two AA or AAA
batteries with an option for powering the T-stat from the 24 volt supply
but you usually find more than 2 conductors in a thermostat cable. Most
thermostat cable has 5 wires colored white, red, green, blue and yellow.
Normally red is the hot wire with blue being ground or common. A
mechanical heat/cool thermostat will use all but the blue wire. A heat
only thermostat will use red and white but green will used if the fan
can be turned on without the heat. Unit heaters, the type you may see
hanging from the ceiling in a lot of warehouses are usually controlled
using only two conductor cable. A programmable thermostat can work with
a two wire system if you remember to change the batteries once a year.

TDD

If it is once a year or even once per quarter, I can live with it.

The batteries will more than likely last more than a year but like
battery powered smoke alarms, change the batteries with the change of
season or daylight savings time change.

TDD

The Daring Dufas wrote:

On 12/31/2011 9:10 PM, Ignoramus21023 wrote:
-snip-

During the day, I want the temp to be 47 degrees, and at night, I
would be happy with 38 degrees or so.


-snip-
using only two conductor cable. A programmable thermostat can work with
a two wire system if you remember to change the batteries once a year.

How's that going to work at 38-47F? I'm not sure if that will
extend the battery life, or render it ineffective.

Jim

On Jan 1, 12:24*am, Ignoramus21023 ignoramus21...@NOSPAM.
21023.invalid wrote:
On 2012-01-01, Ed Pawlowski wrote:





On Sat, 31 Dec 2011 21:10:23 -0600, Ignoramus21023
wrote:

During the day, I want the temp to be 47 degrees, and at night, I
would be happy with 38 degrees or so.

Do programmable thermostats need a separate power supply, or can they
run themselves from just a pair of 24v wires that they open and close?

No wiring needed. *Programmable stat use batteries to power the clock
but the same wires are all that is needed to make them work.

You will find that they have a minimum setting of 40 degrees. *Yeah,
33 would save fuel, but 40 give a safety factor in case the heater
break down.

I've had good experience with Honeywell and White-Rodgers. *We have a
couple dozen or so in our building.

And those, are two wire programmable thermostats with a battery? Right?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Take a look at any of the programmable thermostats at HD or
online. Everyone that I've seen runs off batteries and will work
with a simple two wire connection. Some will
also use 24V, if available. Some also have an internal failsafe
switch that will close at around 40 or so in case the batteries
are dead. I'd check the min temp before you buy one. The
ones I've had for sure will not go down into the 30's. Think
45 might be the lower limit.

And before going below 45, I'd consider where pipes that
could freeze are located. For example if
they are in outside walls, it's going to be substantially colder
there than where the thermostat is located. When I've set
back real low, like below 50, I make sure to leave open
the cabinet doors under sinks that are on outside walls
too so that it can get some more warm air in there.

On 1/1/2012 7:15 AM, Jim Elbrecht wrote:
The Daring wrote:

On 12/31/2011 9:10 PM, Ignoramus21023 wrote:
-snip-

During the day, I want the temp to be 47 degrees, and at night, I
would be happy with 38 degrees or so.


-snip-
using only two conductor cable. A programmable thermostat can work with
a two wire system if you remember to change the batteries once a year.

How's that going to work at 38-47F? I'm not sure if that will
extend the battery life, or render it ineffective.

Jim

I doubt the batteries would work at -47°F but modern alkaline batteries
don't seem to have a problem at 38°F at all. ^_^

TDD

On 1/1/2012 12:24 AM, Ignoramus21023 wrote:
On 2012-01-01, The Daring wrote:
On 12/31/2011 9:10 PM, Ignoramus21023 wrote:
I have a commercial building with about five thermostats for
heating. They are of the non-smart variety, maintaining the same
temperature regardless of time of day, with only a pair of 24v
contacts leading to them.

Given that it is a 10,000 square foot building, this is costing me a
lot of money spent on unnecessary heating during nighttime.

During the day, I want the temp to be 47 degrees, and at night, I
would be happy with 38 degrees or so.

Do programmable thermostats need a separate power supply, or can they
run themselves from just a pair of 24v wires that they open and close?

In other words, if I buy and install programmable thermostats, will I
have to run any additional wiring?

Thanks
i

Most electronic thermostats have a battery compartment for two AA or AAA
batteries with an option for powering the T-stat from the 24 volt supply
but you usually find more than 2 conductors in a thermostat cable. Most
thermostat cable has 5 wires colored white, red, green, blue and yellow.
Normally red is the hot wire with blue being ground or common. A
mechanical heat/cool thermostat will use all but the blue wire. A heat
only thermostat will use red and white but green will used if the fan
can be turned on without the heat. Unit heaters, the type you may see
hanging from the ceiling in a lot of warehouses are usually controlled
using only two conductor cable. A programmable thermostat can work with
a two wire system if you remember to change the batteries once a year.

TDD

If it is once a year or even once per quarter, I can live with it.
I put a residential type Honeywell thermostat in my motor home. As
there really isn't any 24 volts, AC, it runs off the internal batteries
switching 12 volts DC. The batteries will last the entire summer season
but may die sometime before doing the spring cleanup. Actually,
sometimes they are still good in the spring. It sounds like your
application is in a storage warehouse, or something similar. Is it
possible to just use one thermostat at night, set to the low temp, to
switch on and off the 24 volts to all the individual thermostats which
are set to the higher temp? As we don't know the application and how
critical the evenness of temperature is, this was just a light bulb idea.

On 12/31/2011 9:10 PM, Ignoramus21023 wrote:
I have a commercial building with about five thermostats for
heating. They are of the non-smart variety, maintaining the same
temperature regardless of time of day, with only a pair of 24v
contacts leading to them.

Given that it is a 10,000 square foot building, this is costing me a
lot of money spent on unnecessary heating during nighttime.

....

You can't find the time to reset them before leaving in the evening? gd&r

--

On 1/1/2012 8:09 AM, wrote:
On Jan 1, 12:24 am, Ignoramus21023ignoramus21...@NOSPAM.
21023.invalid wrote:
On 2012-01-01, Ed wrote:





On Sat, 31 Dec 2011 21:10:23 -0600, Ignoramus21023
wrote:

During the day, I want the temp to be 47 degrees, and at night, I
would be happy with 38 degrees or so.

Do programmable thermostats need a separate power supply, or can they
run themselves from just a pair of 24v wires that they open and close?

No wiring needed. Programmable stat use batteries to power the clock
but the same wires are all that is needed to make them work.

You will find that they have a minimum setting of 40 degrees. Yeah,
33 would save fuel, but 40 give a safety factor in case the heater
break down.

I've had good experience with Honeywell and White-Rodgers. We have a
couple dozen or so in our building.

And those, are two wire programmable thermostats with a battery? Right?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Take a look at any of the programmable thermostats at HD or
online. Everyone that I've seen runs off batteries and will work
with a simple two wire connection. Some will
also use 24V, if available. Some also have an internal failsafe
switch that will close at around 40 or so in case the batteries
are dead. I'd check the min temp before you buy one. The
ones I've had for sure will not go down into the 30's. Think
45 might be the lower limit.
(snipped)

I do believe you are correct about the 45 degree F lower limit. I looked
all over a couple of years back to find one that would go down into the
high 30's with no success....45 was the lowest I could find.

Don

On 1/1/2012 6:50 PM, IGot2P wrote:
On 1/1/2012 8:09 AM, wrote:
On Jan 1, 12:24 am, Ignoramus21023ignoramus21...@NOSPAM.
21023.invalid wrote:
On 2012-01-01, Ed wrote:





On Sat, 31 Dec 2011 21:10:23 -0600, Ignoramus21023
wrote:

During the day, I want the temp to be 47 degrees, and at night, I
would be happy with 38 degrees or so.

Do programmable thermostats need a separate power supply, or can they
run themselves from just a pair of 24v wires that they open and close?

No wiring needed. Programmable stat use batteries to power the clock
but the same wires are all that is needed to make them work.

You will find that they have a minimum setting of 40 degrees. Yeah,
33 would save fuel, but 40 give a safety factor in case the heater
break down.

I've had good experience with Honeywell and White-Rodgers. We have a
couple dozen or so in our building.

And those, are two wire programmable thermostats with a battery?
Right?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Take a look at any of the programmable thermostats at HD or
online. Everyone that I've seen runs off batteries and will work
with a simple two wire connection. Some will
also use 24V, if available. Some also have an internal failsafe
switch that will close at around 40 or so in case the batteries
are dead. I'd check the min temp before you buy one. The
ones I've had for sure will not go down into the 30's. Think
45 might be the lower limit.
(snipped)

I do believe you are correct about the 45 degree F lower limit. I looked
all over a couple of years back to find one that would go down into the
high 30's with no success....45 was the lowest I could find.

Don


I have a Honeywell TB8220U1003 Commercial VisionPRO 8000 Touchscreen
Programmable Thermostat sitting here on the desk. It goes down to 40°F
in heat mode. I found it laying around in an electrical room where all
the separate thermostats had been removed to implement a remote
controlled energy management system. I put 3 AAA batteries in it so I
can use it as a thermometer and clock and the 3 1/2" X 2 5/8" LCD screen
back lights when I touch it. Just for giggles I looked it up and found
that it lists $439.29. Darn, this thing will do all sorts of stuff. o_O

http://customer.honeywell.com/honeyw...px/TB8220U1003

http://preview.tinyurl.com/7hhf2bj

TDD

On Sun, 01 Jan 2012 18:50:23 -0600, IGot2P wrote:



You will find that they have a minimum setting of 40 degrees. Yeah,
33 would save fuel, but 40 give a safety factor in case the heater
break down.


Some also have an internal failsafe
switch that will close at around 40 or so in case the batteries
are dead. I'd check the min temp before you buy one. The
ones I've had for sure will not go down into the 30's. Think
45 might be the lower limit.
(snipped)

I do believe you are correct about the 45 degree F lower limit. I looked
all over a couple of years back to find one that would go down into the
high 30's with no success....45 was the lowest I could find.

Don

Look at Honeywell. I checked a half dozen models and the specs are 40
degrees.

On 12/31/2011 9:10 PM, Ignoramus21023 wrote:
I have a commercial building with about five thermostats for
heating. They are of the non-smart variety, maintaining the same
temperature regardless of time of day, with only a pair of 24v
contacts leading to them.

Given that it is a 10,000 square foot building, this is costing me a
lot of money spent on unnecessary heating during nighttime.

During the day, I want the temp to be 47 degrees, and at night, I
would be happy with 38 degrees or so.

Do programmable thermostats need a separate power supply, or can they
run themselves from just a pair of 24v wires that they open and close?

In other words, if I buy and install programmable thermostats, will I
have to run any additional wiring?

Thanks
i


All the ones with which I am familiar work with a battery. The
batteries last "forever". I have a White Rogers at my shop that can be
programmed for weekends/weekdays AM I (I use it to knock the chill off
in the morning about 6AM), AM II (I use it to back off the temperature
about 7;30), PM I ( I tell it to shut down to an above freezing number,
I use 52), PM II (I've never really used it, but set it for the same
number as PM I). It can be programmed separately for heating and
cooling, but requires choosing one or the other. This is the unit I have:
http://www.google.com/products/catal...t&gs_upl=&bav=
on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&biw=827&bih=448&um=1&ie= UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=6935806401668448255&sa=X&ei=ofsBT-2EGY2isQKdtOG3Cg&sqi=2&ved=0CG8Q8gIwAQ

I know you are trying to save fuel dollars, but I think you may be
letting the building get too cool at night depending on where you have
water and how long it takes to bring the building up to set point. With
multiple units, you may be able to leave some set VERY low and one near
water usage at a better number.

--


___________________________________

Keep the whole world singing . . .
Dan G

On Dec 31 2011, 9:10*pm, Ignoramus21023 ignoramus21...@NOSPAM.
21023.invalid wrote:
I have a commercial building with about five thermostats for
heating. They are of the non-smart variety, maintaining the same
temperature regardless of time of day, with only a pair of 24v
contacts leading to them.

Given that it is a 10,000 square foot building, this is costing me a
lot of money spent on unnecessary heating during nighttime.

During the day, I want the temp to be 47 degrees, and at night, I
would be happy with 38 degrees or so.

Do programmable thermostats need a separate power supply, or can they
run themselves from just a pair of 24v wires that they open and close?

In other words, if I buy and install programmable thermostats, will I
have to run any additional wiring?

Thanks
i

You can use normal electronic setback thermostats for your
application., and they do operate off of the systems 24 v. power .
Or...you can keep your regular thermostats, and use a 7 day Time Clock
with 5 relays and a night stat set low . The relays would interrupt
the 24 v. power supply to each thermostat , and the added Night Stat
would serve as your low limit thermostat during off hours . The 7
day Time Clock would allow you to keep the space at a low limit during
sat. and sun when youre not open and would allow a variety of
programming during week days.