On 9/6/2011 6:30 PM, JimT wrote:
On 9/6/2011 5:55 PM, wrote:
Akeena Solar is selling a plug in grid tie solar collector aimed at do
it yourselfers.
Just plug them in any 120f receptacle and aim them at the sun.

Cite?

http://www.popularmechanics.com/scie...r-wind/4317039

"...the firm Andalay Solar debuted its new AC panel, which eliminates
the need for elaborate DC wiring and large, system-wide power
inverters by building micro-inverters into each individual panel. For
buyers willing to dip a toe in solar, the panels can be installed one
at a time. For installers, the built-in racking, wiring and grounding
allows a full 3-kilowatt system of about 20 panels to be installed by
a two-man crew in less than a day..."

Hell Toupee wrote in :

On 9/6/2011 6:30 PM, JimT wrote:
On 9/6/2011 5:55 PM, wrote:
Akeena Solar is selling a plug in grid tie solar collector aimed at do
it yourselfers.
Just plug them in any 120f receptacle and aim them at the sun.

Cite?

http://www.popularmechanics.com/scie...r-wind/4317039

"...the firm Andalay Solar debuted its new AC panel, which eliminates
the need for elaborate DC wiring and large, system-wide power
inverters by building micro-inverters into each individual panel. For
buyers willing to dip a toe in solar, the panels can be installed one
at a time. For installers, the built-in racking, wiring and grounding
allows a full 3-kilowatt system of about 20 panels to be installed by
a two-man crew in less than a day..."


for a 3KW array,you better have some sort of transfer panel.
just as you would for any whole-house generator.
it could save someone's life.someone could throw the breaker and think the
wiring was safe to work on,while the solar array was still supplying power
and keeping the system "live".

also,will all those separate inverters stay synchronized?

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

On Wed, 07 Sep 2011 11:13:35 -0500, Jim Yanik
wrote:

Hell Toupee wrote in :

On 9/6/2011 6:30 PM, JimT wrote:
On 9/6/2011 5:55 PM, wrote:
Akeena Solar is selling a plug in grid tie solar collector aimed at do
it yourselfers.
Just plug them in any 120f receptacle and aim them at the sun.

Cite?

http://www.popularmechanics.com/scie...r-wind/4317039

"...the firm Andalay Solar debuted its new AC panel, which eliminates
the need for elaborate DC wiring and large, system-wide power
inverters by building micro-inverters into each individual panel. For
buyers willing to dip a toe in solar, the panels can be installed one
at a time. For installers, the built-in racking, wiring and grounding
allows a full 3-kilowatt system of about 20 panels to be installed by
a two-man crew in less than a day..."


for a 3KW array,you better have some sort of transfer panel.
just as you would for any whole-house generator.
it could save someone's life.someone could throw the breaker and think the
wiring was safe to work on,while the solar array was still supplying power
and keeping the system "live".

also,will all those separate inverters stay synchronized?
Yes, they will. They monitor the line and sync with it. A small
microprocessor that only adds a few dollars of cost takes care of all
that complex computations required to do so. I also believe they will
automatically shut down if regular AC power is lost.

I would like to know how they do that, though. If you have ten of
them plugged in, how do they tell the difference between commercial AC
power and each other?

wrote in
:

On Wed, 07 Sep 2011 11:13:35 -0500, Jim Yanik
wrote:

Hell Toupee wrote in
:

On 9/6/2011 6:30 PM, JimT wrote:
On 9/6/2011 5:55 PM, wrote:
Akeena Solar is selling a plug in grid tie solar collector aimed
at do it yourselfers.
Just plug them in any 120f receptacle and aim them at the sun.

Cite?

http://www.popularmechanics.com/scie...r-wind/4317039

"...the firm Andalay Solar debuted its new AC panel, which
eliminates the need for elaborate DC wiring and large, system-wide
power inverters by building micro-inverters into each individual
panel. For buyers willing to dip a toe in solar, the panels can be
installed one at a time. For installers, the built-in racking,
wiring and grounding allows a full 3-kilowatt system of about 20
panels to be installed by a two-man crew in less than a day..."


for a 3KW array,you better have some sort of transfer panel.
just as you would for any whole-house generator.
it could save someone's life.someone could throw the breaker and think
the wiring was safe to work on,while the solar array was still
supplying power and keeping the system "live".

also,will all those separate inverters stay synchronized?
Yes, they will. They monitor the line and sync with it. A small
microprocessor that only adds a few dollars of cost takes care of all
that complex computations required to do so. I also believe they will
automatically shut down if regular AC power is lost.

what's the point of having solar panels if they shut down when you lose
mains power and REALLY need them?
3 KW would easily keep your fridge going and your food unspoiled.
(and your beer cold!)
3 KW would probably power the entire home,excluding heating or airco.


I would like to know how they do that, though. If you have ten of
them plugged in, how do they tell the difference between commercial AC
power and each other?


Perhaps they note the loss of the 60 HZ mains freq;with no sync signal,they
shut down. If the panels tried to sync to each other,they would quickly
drift to some out-of-spec limit. (lacking any reference)
Hopefully,a narrow limit,as too far off 60 HZ can damage some appliances.


--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

On Sep 8, 7:36*am, wrote:
On Wed, 07 Sep 2011 19:27:08 -0500, Jim Yanik
wrote:





wrote in
:

On Wed, 07 Sep 2011 11:13:35 -0500, Jim Yanik
wrote:

Hell Toupee wrote in
:

On 9/6/2011 6:30 PM, JimT wrote:
On 9/6/2011 5:55 PM, wrote:
Akeena Solar is selling a plug in grid tie solar collector aimed
at do it yourselfers.
Just plug them in any 120f receptacle and aim them at the sun.

Cite?

http://www.popularmechanics.com/scie...r-wind/4317039

"...the firm Andalay Solar debuted its new AC panel, which
eliminates the need for elaborate DC wiring and large, system-wide
power inverters by building micro-inverters into each individual
panel. For buyers willing to dip a toe in solar, the panels can be
installed one at a time. For installers, the built-in racking,
wiring and grounding allows a full 3-kilowatt system of about 20
panels to be installed by a two-man crew in less than a day..."

for a 3KW array,you better have some sort of transfer panel.
just as you would for any whole-house generator.
it could save someone's life.someone could throw the breaker and think
the wiring was safe to work on,while the solar array was still
supplying power and keeping the system "live".

also,will all those separate inverters stay synchronized?
Yes, they will. *They monitor the line and sync with it. *A small
microprocessor that only adds a few dollars of cost takes care of all
that complex computations required to do so. *I also believe they will
automatically shut down if regular AC power is lost.

what's the point of having solar panels if they shut down when you lose
mains power and REALLY need them?
3 KW would easily keep your fridge going and your food unspoiled.
(and your beer cold!)
3 KW would probably power the entire home,excluding heating or airco.

I would like to know how they do that, though. *If you have ten of
them plugged in, how do they tell the difference between commercial AC
power and each other?

Perhaps they note the loss of the 60 HZ mains freq;with no sync signal,they
shut down. If the panels tried to sync to each other,they would quickly
drift to some out-of-spec limit. (lacking any reference)
Hopefully,a narrow limit,as too far off 60 HZ can damage some appliances..

Plug in collectors have been around for a year or two. They simply
shut down when the grid stops. I agree it is not useful in a power
failure but that is true of any grid tie system.

These things are U/L listed so I am not sure exactly how the AHJ can
stop anyone from using them. U/L says they have been tested and they
are safe. What would you cite?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

They are only of any use if the power company pays you for the
electricity generated.
In practice, most people findt hey they can half their electricity
bill but only if they are there in daylight hours. Also in Winter/
cloudy weather there is much less scope.

On Sep 8, 3:49*am, harry wrote:
On Sep 8, 7:36*am, wrote:





On Wed, 07 Sep 2011 19:27:08 -0500, Jim Yanik
wrote:

wrote in
:

On Wed, 07 Sep 2011 11:13:35 -0500, Jim Yanik
wrote:

Hell Toupee wrote in
:

On 9/6/2011 6:30 PM, JimT wrote:
On 9/6/2011 5:55 PM, wrote:
Akeena Solar is selling a plug in grid tie solar collector aimed
at do it yourselfers.
Just plug them in any 120f receptacle and aim them at the sun.

Cite?

http://www.popularmechanics.com/scie...r-wind/4317039

"...the firm Andalay Solar debuted its new AC panel, which
eliminates the need for elaborate DC wiring and large, system-wide
power inverters by building micro-inverters into each individual
panel. For buyers willing to dip a toe in solar, the panels can be
installed one at a time. For installers, the built-in racking,
wiring and grounding allows a full 3-kilowatt system of about 20
panels to be installed by a two-man crew in less than a day..."

for a 3KW array,you better have some sort of transfer panel.
just as you would for any whole-house generator.
it could save someone's life.someone could throw the breaker and think
the wiring was safe to work on,while the solar array was still
supplying power and keeping the system "live".

also,will all those separate inverters stay synchronized?
Yes, they will. *They monitor the line and sync with it. *A small
microprocessor that only adds a few dollars of cost takes care of all
that complex computations required to do so. *I also believe they will
automatically shut down if regular AC power is lost.

what's the point of having solar panels if they shut down when you lose
mains power and REALLY need them?
3 KW would easily keep your fridge going and your food unspoiled.
(and your beer cold!)
3 KW would probably power the entire home,excluding heating or airco.

I would like to know how they do that, though. *If you have ten of
them plugged in, how do they tell the difference between commercial AC
power and each other?

Perhaps they note the loss of the 60 HZ mains freq;with no sync signal,they
shut down. If the panels tried to sync to each other,they would quickly
drift to some out-of-spec limit. (lacking any reference)
Hopefully,a narrow limit,as too far off 60 HZ can damage some appliances.

Plug in collectors have been around for a year or two. They simply
shut down when the grid stops. I agree it is not useful in a power
failure but that is true of any grid tie system.

These things are U/L listed so I am not sure exactly how the AHJ can
stop anyone from using them. U/L says they have been tested and they
are safe. What would you cite?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

They are only of any use if the power company pays you for the
electricity generated.

Why would that be? If you have any type of solar
generation system on your house, to the extent it's
meeting the needs of your house, the house is
pulling that much less power from the grid and
the meter reflects lower usage.




In practice, most people findt hey they can half their electricity
bill but only if they are there in daylight hours. Also in Winter/
cloudy weather there is much less scope.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Sep 8, 2:36*am, wrote:
On Wed, 07 Sep 2011 19:27:08 -0500, Jim Yanik
wrote:





wrote in
:

On Wed, 07 Sep 2011 11:13:35 -0500, Jim Yanik
wrote:

Hell Toupee wrote in
:

On 9/6/2011 6:30 PM, JimT wrote:
On 9/6/2011 5:55 PM, wrote:
Akeena Solar is selling a plug in grid tie solar collector aimed
at do it yourselfers.
Just plug them in any 120f receptacle and aim them at the sun.

Cite?

http://www.popularmechanics.com/scie...r-wind/4317039

"...the firm Andalay Solar debuted its new AC panel, which
eliminates the need for elaborate DC wiring and large, system-wide
power inverters by building micro-inverters into each individual
panel. For buyers willing to dip a toe in solar, the panels can be
installed one at a time. For installers, the built-in racking,
wiring and grounding allows a full 3-kilowatt system of about 20
panels to be installed by a two-man crew in less than a day..."

for a 3KW array,you better have some sort of transfer panel.
just as you would for any whole-house generator.
it could save someone's life.someone could throw the breaker and think
the wiring was safe to work on,while the solar array was still
supplying power and keeping the system "live".

also,will all those separate inverters stay synchronized?
Yes, they will. *They monitor the line and sync with it. *A small
microprocessor that only adds a few dollars of cost takes care of all
that complex computations required to do so. *I also believe they will
automatically shut down if regular AC power is lost.

what's the point of having solar panels if they shut down when you lose
mains power and REALLY need them?
3 KW would easily keep your fridge going and your food unspoiled.
(and your beer cold!)
3 KW would probably power the entire home,excluding heating or airco.

I would like to know how they do that, though. *If you have ten of
them plugged in, how do they tell the difference between commercial AC
power and each other?

Perhaps they note the loss of the 60 HZ mains freq;with no sync signal,they
shut down. If the panels tried to sync to each other,they would quickly
drift to some out-of-spec limit. (lacking any reference)
Hopefully,a narrow limit,as too far off 60 HZ can damage some appliances..

Plug in collectors have been around for a year or two. They simply
shut down when the grid stops. I agree it is not useful in a power
failure but that is true of any grid tie system.

I can see the obvious need for any solar array to disconnect
from the grid when the grid power goes down. The more
interesting question is why no one has a system that will
allow the home to still be powered by solar while
disconnected from the grid. There are obvious issues
with that too, like the house experiencing brownout when
the sun goes behind a cloud. But you would think with
some smart's in the controller it could allow the house
to be powered, no? Say for example, the controller
detects 50% of max power from the array for 30 mins
continuous, ie it's a reasonably sunny day, so it
turns on power to the home, but not the grid. If it
can't meet the load because it then gets cloudy, it
could turn off, then repeat process. I guess the
issue is how well that would work, for how many
parts of the country, etc vs the added complexity
and the annoyance of having power come and go.




These things are U/L listed so I am not sure exactly how the AHJ can
stop anyone from using them. U/L says they have been tested and they
are safe. What would you cite?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

what's the point of having solar panels if they shut down when you lose
mains power and REALLY need them?
3 KW would easily keep your fridge going and your food unspoiled.
(and your beer cold!)
3 KW would probably power the entire home,excluding heating or airco.

I would like to know how they do that, though. *If you have ten of
them plugged in, how do they tell the difference between commercial AC
power and each other?

Perhaps they note the loss of the 60 HZ mains freq;with no sync signal,they
shut down. If the panels tried to sync to each other,they would quickly
drift to some out-of-spec limit. (lacking any reference)
Hopefully,a narrow limit,as too far off 60 HZ can damage some appliances.

Plug in collectors have been around for a year or two. They simply
shut down when the grid stops. I agree it is not useful in a power
failure but that is true of any grid tie system.

I can see the obvious need for any solar array to disconnect
from the grid when the grid power goes down. *The more
interesting question is why no one has a system that will
allow the home to still be powered by solar while
disconnected from the grid. * There are obvious issues
with that too, like the house experiencing brownout when
the sun goes behind a cloud. *But you would think with
some smart's in the controller it could allow the house
to be powered, no? * Say for example, the controller
detects 50% of max power from the array for 30 mins
continuous, ie it's a reasonably sunny day, so it
turns on power to the home, but not the grid. *If it
can't meet the load because it then gets cloudy, it
could turn off, then repeat process. * I guess the
issue is how well that would work, for how many
parts of the country, etc vs the added complexity
and the annoyance of having power come and go.



Such systems exist but they have expensive batteries. You don't save
any money that way.

On Sep 8, 9:28*am, "
wrote:
On Sep 8, 2:36*am, wrote:









On Wed, 07 Sep 2011 19:27:08 -0500, Jim Yanik
wrote:

wrote in
:

On Wed, 07 Sep 2011 11:13:35 -0500, Jim Yanik
wrote:

Hell Toupee wrote in
:

On 9/6/2011 6:30 PM, JimT wrote:
On 9/6/2011 5:55 PM, wrote:
Akeena Solar is selling a plug in grid tie solar collector aimed
at do it yourselfers.
Just plug them in any 120f receptacle and aim them at the sun.

Cite?

http://www.popularmechanics.com/scie...r-wind/4317039

"...the firm Andalay Solar debuted its new AC panel, which
eliminates the need for elaborate DC wiring and large, system-wide
power inverters by building micro-inverters into each individual
panel. For buyers willing to dip a toe in solar, the panels can be
installed one at a time. For installers, the built-in racking,
wiring and grounding allows a full 3-kilowatt system of about 20
panels to be installed by a two-man crew in less than a day..."

for a 3KW array,you better have some sort of transfer panel.
just as you would for any whole-house generator.
it could save someone's life.someone could throw the breaker and think
the wiring was safe to work on,while the solar array was still
supplying power and keeping the system "live".

also,will all those separate inverters stay synchronized?
Yes, they will. *They monitor the line and sync with it. *A small
microprocessor that only adds a few dollars of cost takes care of all
that complex computations required to do so. *I also believe they will
automatically shut down if regular AC power is lost.

what's the point of having solar panels if they shut down when you lose
mains power and REALLY need them?
3 KW would easily keep your fridge going and your food unspoiled.
(and your beer cold!)
3 KW would probably power the entire home,excluding heating or airco.

I would like to know how they do that, though. *If you have ten of
them plugged in, how do they tell the difference between commercial AC
power and each other?

Perhaps they note the loss of the 60 HZ mains freq;with no sync signal,they
shut down. If the panels tried to sync to each other,they would quickly
drift to some out-of-spec limit. (lacking any reference)
Hopefully,a narrow limit,as too far off 60 HZ can damage some appliances.

Plug in collectors have been around for a year or two. They simply
shut down when the grid stops. I agree it is not useful in a power
failure but that is true of any grid tie system.

I can see the obvious need for any solar array to disconnect
from the grid when the grid power goes down. *The more
interesting question is why no one has a system that will
allow the home to still be powered by solar while
disconnected from the grid. * There are obvious issues
with that too, like the house experiencing brownout when
the sun goes behind a cloud. *But you would think with
some smart's in the controller it could allow the house
to be powered, no? * Say for example, the controller
detects 50% of max power from the array for 30 mins
continuous, ie it's a reasonably sunny day, so it
turns on power to the home, but not the grid. *If it
can't meet the load because it then gets cloudy, it
could turn off, then repeat process. * I guess the
issue is how well that would work, for how many
parts of the country, etc vs the added complexity
and the annoyance of having power come and go.


These things are U/L listed so I am not sure exactly how the AHJ can
stop anyone from using them. U/L says they have been tested and they
are safe. What would you cite?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

In a practical solar emergency back up system there will be a battery
bank. The batteries add markedly to system costs and require periodic
replacement. A battery charging controller can use a grid tie
inverter as a diversion load for the system. When the batteries are
charged the output of the solar array is diverted to the grid tie
inverter. When the batteries need recharging they get the solar array
power they need via the charge controller with any excess power
diverted to the grid tie inverter. An automatic or manual transfer
switch transfers the emergency loads to a separate regular inverter
that runs off of the batteries when utility power is absent. The grid
tie inverter senses the emergency inverter output as non utility and
does not turn on unless the emergency power inverter is of the true
sine wave output type in which case the grid tie inverter will
synchronize with the emergency inverter and share the load. That
would have the effect of increasing the loads the emergency system
could carry up to the limit of the solar and or battery capacity
available.

Some generators can deceive a grid tie inverter. The larger the
generator and the better its power quality the more likely that is.
The good news is that there is no danger caused by that as long as a
proper transfer switch is used on the emergency inverter and generator
system. The grid tie inverter will only reduce the load on the
generator and if you use the battery charging and emergency power
inverter system then the grid tie inverter would only get the extra
current that wasn't needed by the batteries. The switching and
sharing of the solar arrays output is all handled by the charge
controller or an add on diversion controller. If an automatic
starting generator is available the emergency inverter will signal it
to start if the load exceeds the capacity of the emergency inverter or
if the battery voltage drops to it's minimum safe level.
--
Tom Horne

On Sep 7, 7:05*pm, wrote:
On Wed, 07 Sep 2011 11:13:35 -0500, Jim Yanik
wrote:





Hell Toupee wrote :

On 9/6/2011 6:30 PM, JimT wrote:
On 9/6/2011 5:55 PM, wrote:
Akeena Solar is selling a plug in grid tie solar collector aimed at do
it yourselfers.
Just plug them in any 120f receptacle and aim them at the sun.

Cite?

http://www.popularmechanics.com/scie...r-wind/4317039

"...the firm Andalay Solar debuted its new AC panel, which eliminates
the need for elaborate DC wiring and large, system-wide power
inverters by building micro-inverters into each individual panel. For
buyers willing to dip a toe in solar, the panels can be installed one
at a time. For installers, the built-in racking, wiring and grounding
allows a full 3-kilowatt system of about 20 panels to be installed by
a two-man crew in less than a day..."

for a 3KW array,you better have some sort of transfer panel.
just as you would for any whole-house generator.
it could save someone's life.someone could throw the breaker and think the
wiring was safe to work on,while the solar array was still supplying power
and keeping the system "live".

also,will all those separate inverters stay synchronized?

Yes, they will. *They monitor the line and sync with it. *A small
microprocessor that only adds a few dollars of cost takes care of all
that complex computations required to do so. *I also believe they will
automatically shut down if regular AC power is lost.

I would like to know how they do that, though. *If you have ten of
them plugged in, how do they tell the difference between commercial AC
power and each other?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

http://www.fronius.com/cps/rde/xchg/...4_ENG_HTML.htm

On Sep 7, 2:05*pm, wrote:
On Wed, 07 Sep 2011 11:13:35 -0500, Jim Yanik
wrote:





Hell Toupee wrote :

On 9/6/2011 6:30 PM, JimT wrote:
On 9/6/2011 5:55 PM, wrote:
Akeena Solar is selling a plug in grid tie solar collector aimed at do
it yourselfers.
Just plug them in any 120f receptacle and aim them at the sun.

Cite?

http://www.popularmechanics.com/scie...r-wind/4317039

"...the firm Andalay Solar debuted its new AC panel, which eliminates
the need for elaborate DC wiring and large, system-wide power
inverters by building micro-inverters into each individual panel. For
buyers willing to dip a toe in solar, the panels can be installed one
at a time. For installers, the built-in racking, wiring and grounding
allows a full 3-kilowatt system of about 20 panels to be installed by
a two-man crew in less than a day..."

for a 3KW array,you better have some sort of transfer panel.
just as you would for any whole-house generator.
it could save someone's life.someone could throw the breaker and think the
wiring was safe to work on,while the solar array was still supplying power
and keeping the system "live".

also,will all those separate inverters stay synchronized?

Yes, they will. *They monitor the line and sync with it. *A small
microprocessor that only adds a few dollars of cost takes care of all
that complex computations required to do so. *I also believe they will
automatically shut down if regular AC power is lost.

I would like to know how they do that, though. *If you have ten of
them plugged in, how do they tell the difference between commercial AC
power and each other?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

If they dont shut down the inverters are going to be trying to feed
the whole neighborhood at least and will let out all the magic smoke
that allows electronic componets to function. Besides that you wouldnt
want to try to use the direct output of an inverter not paralleled
with the PoCo. Its a very nasty looking square wave that can have 400
volt peaks. When attached to PoCo all of this is cleaned up.


Jimmie

On Sep 8, 6:17*pm, JIMMIE wrote:
On Sep 7, 2:05*pm, wrote:





On Wed, 07 Sep 2011 11:13:35 -0500, Jim Yanik
wrote:

Hell Toupee wrote :

On 9/6/2011 6:30 PM, JimT wrote:
On 9/6/2011 5:55 PM, wrote:
Akeena Solar is selling a plug in grid tie solar collector aimed at do
it yourselfers.
Just plug them in any 120f receptacle and aim them at the sun.

Cite?

http://www.popularmechanics.com/scie...r-wind/4317039

"...the firm Andalay Solar debuted its new AC panel, which eliminates
the need for elaborate DC wiring and large, system-wide power
inverters by building micro-inverters into each individual panel. For
buyers willing to dip a toe in solar, the panels can be installed one
at a time. For installers, the built-in racking, wiring and grounding
allows a full 3-kilowatt system of about 20 panels to be installed by
a two-man crew in less than a day..."

for a 3KW array,you better have some sort of transfer panel.
just as you would for any whole-house generator.
it could save someone's life.someone could throw the breaker and think the
wiring was safe to work on,while the solar array was still supplying power
and keeping the system "live".

also,will all those separate inverters stay synchronized?

Yes, they will. *They monitor the line and sync with it. *A small
microprocessor that only adds a few dollars of cost takes care of all
that complex computations required to do so. *I also believe they will
automatically shut down if regular AC power is lost.

I would like to know how they do that, though. *If you have ten of
them plugged in, how do they tell the difference between commercial AC
power and each other?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

If they dont shut down the inverters are going to be trying to feed
the whole neighborhood at least and will let out all the magic smoke
that allows electronic componets to function. Besides that you wouldnt
want to try to use the direct output of an inverter not paralleled
with the PoCo. Its a very nasty looking square wave that can have 400
volt peaks. When attached to PoCo all of this is cleaned up.

Jimmie- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Tch. You are in cloud cuckoo land. Modern inverters produce a pretty
good sine wave

On Wed, 07 Sep 2011 16:07:13 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 07 Sep 2011 14:05:06 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 07 Sep 2011 11:13:35 -0500, Jim Yanik
wrote:

Hell Toupee wrote in :

On 9/6/2011 6:30 PM, JimT wrote:
On 9/6/2011 5:55 PM, wrote:
Akeena Solar is selling a plug in grid tie solar collector aimed at do
it yourselfers.
Just plug them in any 120f receptacle and aim them at the sun.

Cite?

http://www.popularmechanics.com/scie...r-wind/4317039

"...the firm Andalay Solar debuted its new AC panel, which eliminates
the need for elaborate DC wiring and large, system-wide power
inverters by building micro-inverters into each individual panel. For
buyers willing to dip a toe in solar, the panels can be installed one
at a time. For installers, the built-in racking, wiring and grounding
allows a full 3-kilowatt system of about 20 panels to be installed by
a two-man crew in less than a day..."


for a 3KW array,you better have some sort of transfer panel.
just as you would for any whole-house generator.
it could save someone's life.someone could throw the breaker and think the
wiring was safe to work on,while the solar array was still supplying power
and keeping the system "live".

also,will all those separate inverters stay synchronized?
Yes, they will. They monitor the line and sync with it. A small
microprocessor that only adds a few dollars of cost takes care of all
that complex computations required to do so. I also believe they will
automatically shut down if regular AC power is lost.

I would like to know how they do that, though. If you have ten of
them plugged in, how do they tell the difference between commercial AC
power and each other?

It is pretty simple, A little PV inverter is not going to change the
grid.

These things need to see something on the line side before they put
out. That is where they get their clock.

So, you are basically saying that as long as the load is high enough
to exceed the output of the connected panels, they will shut down
during a commercial power failure. (And, the load will likely be high
enough since they will be trying to power the grid). I guess that
makes sense, but what if you have a bunch of them and their output
exceeds the current load? Perhaps your home is the only one on a
particular transformer and the fault was an opening of the primary
feeding your transformer? For example, a tree falls and knocks down
the primary near your house. Wouldn't the panels keep running and
thereby energize the high voltage side of that transformer? (I have
no experience with these panels. I am just speculating about how they
might work. Please correct me if you know how they really work) Maybe
they form a mini-grid and quickly drift off frequency. That could be
detected and used to force a shut down.

On Sep 7, 4:27*pm, wrote:
On Wed, 07 Sep 2011 16:07:13 -0400, wrote:
On Wed, 07 Sep 2011 14:05:06 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 07 Sep 2011 11:13:35 -0500, Jim Yanik
wrote:

Hell Toupee wrote :

On 9/6/2011 6:30 PM, JimT wrote:
On 9/6/2011 5:55 PM, wrote:
Akeena Solar is selling a plug in grid tie solar collector aimed at do
it yourselfers.
Just plug them in any 120f receptacle and aim them at the sun.

Cite?

http://www.popularmechanics.com/scie...r-wind/4317039

"...the firm Andalay Solar debuted its new AC panel, which eliminates
the need for elaborate DC wiring and large, system-wide power
inverters by building micro-inverters into each individual panel. For
buyers willing to dip a toe in solar, the panels can be installed one
at a time. For installers, the built-in racking, wiring and grounding
allows a full 3-kilowatt system of about 20 panels to be installed by
a two-man crew in less than a day..."

for a 3KW array,you better have some sort of transfer panel.
just as you would for any whole-house generator.
it could save someone's life.someone could throw the breaker and think the
wiring was safe to work on,while the solar array was still supplying power
and keeping the system "live".

also,will all those separate inverters stay synchronized?
Yes, they will. *They monitor the line and sync with it. *A small
microprocessor that only adds a few dollars of cost takes care of all
that complex computations required to do so. *I also believe they will
automatically shut down if regular AC power is lost.

I would like to know how they do that, though. *If you have ten of
them plugged in, how do they tell the difference between commercial AC
power and each other?

It is pretty simple, A little PV inverter is not going to change the
grid.

These things need to see something on the line side before they put
out. That is where they get their clock.

So, you are basically saying that as long as the load is high enough
to exceed the output of the connected panels, they will shut down
during a commercial power failure. *(And, the load will likely be high
enough since they will be trying to power the grid). *I guess that
makes sense, but what if you have a bunch of them and their output
exceeds the current load? *Perhaps your home is the only one on a
particular transformer and the fault was an opening of the primary
feeding your transformer? *For example, a tree falls and knocks down
the primary near your house. * Wouldn't the panels keep running and
thereby energize the high voltage side of that transformer? *(I have
no experience with these panels. *I am just speculating about how they
might work. *Please correct me if you know how they really work) Maybe
they form a mini-grid and quickly drift off frequency. *That could be
detected and used to force a shut down.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I seriously doubt code is going to allow these panels
to be connected without an automatic disconnecting
mechanism. Where are you guys getting information
that says otherwise? All I've seen on these new panels
is that they contain the inverter in them and they are
easy to hook up. To me that sounds like a modular,
easier to install system, but I don't see anything more
on exactly how they are installed, connected, etc.

On 9/7/2011 2:32 PM, wrote:
On Sep 7, 4:27 pm, wrote:
On Wed, 07 Sep 2011 16:07:13 -0400, wrote:
On Wed, 07 Sep 2011 14:05:06 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 07 Sep 2011 11:13:35 -0500, Jim
wrote:

Hell wrote :

On 9/6/2011 6:30 PM, JimT wrote:
On 9/6/2011 5:55 PM, wrote:
Akeena Solar is selling a plug in grid tie solar collector aimed at do
it yourselfers.
Just plug them in any 120f receptacle and aim them at the sun.

Cite?

http://www.popularmechanics.com/scie...r-wind/4317039

"...the firm Andalay Solar debuted its new AC panel, which eliminates
the need for elaborate DC wiring and large, system-wide power
inverters by building micro-inverters into each individual panel. For
buyers willing to dip a toe in solar, the panels can be installed one
at a time. For installers, the built-in racking, wiring and grounding
allows a full 3-kilowatt system of about 20 panels to be installed by
a two-man crew in less than a day..."

for a 3KW array,you better have some sort of transfer panel.
just as you would for any whole-house generator.
it could save someone's life.someone could throw the breaker and think the
wiring was safe to work on,while the solar array was still supplying power
and keeping the system "live".

also,will all those separate inverters stay synchronized?
Yes, they will. They monitor the line and sync with it. A small
microprocessor that only adds a few dollars of cost takes care of all
that complex computations required to do so. I also believe they will
automatically shut down if regular AC power is lost.

I would like to know how they do that, though. If you have ten of
them plugged in, how do they tell the difference between commercial AC
power and each other?

It is pretty simple, A little PV inverter is not going to change the
grid.

These things need to see something on the line side before they put
out. That is where they get their clock.

So, you are basically saying that as long as the load is high enough
to exceed the output of the connected panels, they will shut down
during a commercial power failure. (And, the load will likely be high
enough since they will be trying to power the grid). I guess that
makes sense, but what if you have a bunch of them and their output
exceeds the current load? Perhaps your home is the only one on a
particular transformer and the fault was an opening of the primary
feeding your transformer? For example, a tree falls and knocks down
the primary near your house. Wouldn't the panels keep running and
thereby energize the high voltage side of that transformer? (I have
no experience with these panels. I am just speculating about how they
might work. Please correct me if you know how they really work) Maybe
they form a mini-grid and quickly drift off frequency. That could be
detected and used to force a shut down.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I seriously doubt code is going to allow these panels
to be connected without an automatic disconnecting
mechanism. Where are you guys getting information
that says otherwise? All I've seen on these new panels
is that they contain the inverter in them and they are
easy to hook up. To me that sounds like a modular,
easier to install system, but I don't see anything more
on exactly how they are installed, connected, etc.

if they don't detect the grid, they don't send power out.

On Sep 7, 10:32*pm, "
wrote:
On Sep 7, 4:27*pm, wrote:





On Wed, 07 Sep 2011 16:07:13 -0400, wrote:
On Wed, 07 Sep 2011 14:05:06 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 07 Sep 2011 11:13:35 -0500, Jim Yanik
wrote:

Hell Toupee wrote :

On 9/6/2011 6:30 PM, JimT wrote:
On 9/6/2011 5:55 PM, wrote:
Akeena Solar is selling a plug in grid tie solar collector aimed at do
it yourselfers.
Just plug them in any 120f receptacle and aim them at the sun.

Cite?

http://www.popularmechanics.com/scie...r-wind/4317039

"...the firm Andalay Solar debuted its new AC panel, which eliminates
the need for elaborate DC wiring and large, system-wide power
inverters by building micro-inverters into each individual panel. For
buyers willing to dip a toe in solar, the panels can be installed one
at a time. For installers, the built-in racking, wiring and grounding
allows a full 3-kilowatt system of about 20 panels to be installed by
a two-man crew in less than a day..."

for a 3KW array,you better have some sort of transfer panel.
just as you would for any whole-house generator.
it could save someone's life.someone could throw the breaker and think the
wiring was safe to work on,while the solar array was still supplying power
and keeping the system "live".

also,will all those separate inverters stay synchronized?
Yes, they will. *They monitor the line and sync with it. *A small
microprocessor that only adds a few dollars of cost takes care of all
that complex computations required to do so. *I also believe they will
automatically shut down if regular AC power is lost.

I would like to know how they do that, though. *If you have ten of
them plugged in, how do they tell the difference between commercial AC
power and each other?

It is pretty simple, A little PV inverter is not going to change the
grid.

These things need to see something on the line side before they put
out. That is where they get their clock.

So, you are basically saying that as long as the load is high enough
to exceed the output of the connected panels, they will shut down
during a commercial power failure. *(And, the load will likely be high
enough since they will be trying to power the grid). *I guess that
makes sense, but what if you have a bunch of them and their output
exceeds the current load? *Perhaps your home is the only one on a
particular transformer and the fault was an opening of the primary
feeding your transformer? *For example, a tree falls and knocks down
the primary near your house. * Wouldn't the panels keep running and
thereby energize the high voltage side of that transformer? *(I have
no experience with these panels. *I am just speculating about how they
might work. *Please correct me if you know how they really work) Maybe
they form a mini-grid and quickly drift off frequency. *That could be
detected and used to force a shut down.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I seriously doubt code is going to allow these panels
to be connected without an automatic disconnecting
mechanism. *Where are you guys getting information
that says otherwise? *All I've seen on these new panels
is that they contain the inverter in them and they are
easy to hook up. *To me that sounds like a modular,
easier to install system, but I don't see anything more
on exactly how they are installed, connected, etc.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

They are perfectly simple to connect. Four wires. The technology is
old in Europe. There are AC and DC isolators. If you open the AC
one the inverter shuts down.

On Sep 7, 5:13*pm, Jim Yanik wrote:
Hell Toupee wrote :





On 9/6/2011 6:30 PM, JimT wrote:
On 9/6/2011 5:55 PM, wrote:
Akeena Solar is selling a plug in grid tie solar collector aimed at do
it yourselfers.
Just plug them in any 120f receptacle and aim them at the sun.

Cite?

http://www.popularmechanics.com/scie...r-wind/4317039

"...the firm Andalay Solar debuted its new AC panel, which eliminates
the need for elaborate DC wiring and large, system-wide power
inverters by building micro-inverters into each individual panel. For
buyers willing to dip a toe in solar, the panels can be installed one
at a time. For installers, the built-in racking, wiring and grounding
allows a full 3-kilowatt system of about 20 panels to be installed by
a two-man crew in less than a day..."

for a 3KW array,you better have some sort of transfer panel.
just as you would for any whole-house generator.
it could save someone's life.someone could throw the breaker and think the
wiring was safe to work on,while the solar array was still supplying power
and keeping the system "live".

also,will all those separate inverters stay synchronized?

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Tch All these problems are long solved.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-islanding

On Sep 7, 12:13*pm, Jim Yanik wrote:
Hell Toupee wrote :









On 9/6/2011 6:30 PM, JimT wrote:
On 9/6/2011 5:55 PM, wrote:
Akeena Solar is selling a plug in grid tie solar collector aimed at do
it yourselfers.
Just plug them in any 120f receptacle and aim them at the sun.

Cite?

http://www.popularmechanics.com/scie...r-wind/4317039

"...the firm Andalay Solar debuted its new AC panel, which eliminates
the need for elaborate DC wiring and large, system-wide power
inverters by building micro-inverters into each individual panel. For
buyers willing to dip a toe in solar, the panels can be installed one
at a time. For installers, the built-in racking, wiring and grounding
allows a full 3-kilowatt system of about 20 panels to be installed by
a two-man crew in less than a day..."

for a 3KW array,you better have some sort of transfer panel.
just as you would for any whole-house generator.
it could save someone's life.someone could throw the breaker and think the
wiring was safe to work on,while the solar array was still supplying power
and keeping the system "live".

also,will all those separate inverters stay synchronized?

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

Grid tie inverters shut down when they cannot synchronize to the
grid. No utility power means no inverter output. It simply shuts
itself off without any user intervention.
--
Tom Horne