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Estimating KWh electicity billing using clamp-on amp meter
On 07/30/2018 02:29 PM, Single Phase wrote:
[snip] But I do have one question, I understand the advantage of 120° 3-phase and 90° 2-phase for starting motors but what is the advantage of your 180° 2-phase over standard single phase 120/240 service? No point in the system is more than 120V away from ground. |
Estimating KWh electicity billing using clamp-on amp meter
On 07/30/2018 06:31 PM, wrote:
[snip] In "N-phase" it will be required to have "N" different sine waves but that is just a red herring in this discussion because we just have 1, 2 and 3. In each of those there is a sine wave displaced by 90 or 120 degrees. The meaning of "phase" puts no limits on how many you can have. I have actually seen 4-phase (not for power distribution, but that has nothing to do with the meaning of "phase"). I found an article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyphase_system) that mentions a 6-phase system. -- Mark Lloyd http://notstupid.us/ "The unspiritual man does not receive the gifts of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned." Paul, 1 Corinthians 2:14 |
Estimating KWh electicity billing using clamp-on amp meter
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Estimating KWh electicity billing using clamp-on amp meter
On 07/31/2018 11:49 AM, Sam E wrote:
On 07/30/2018 02:29 PM, Single Phase wrote: [snip] But I do have one question, I understand the advantage of 120° 3-phase and 90° 2-phase for starting motors but what is the advantage of your 180° 2-phase over standard single phase 120/240 service? No point in the system is more than 120V away from ground. What? Have you been drinking? |
Estimating KWh electicity billing using clamp-on amp meter
On Monday, July 30, 2018 at 8:54:47 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Mon, 30 Jul 2018 16:54:02 -0700 (PDT), trader_4 wrote: On Monday, July 30, 2018 at 7:06:07 PM UTC-4, wrote: On Mon, 30 Jul 2018 15:04:45 -0700 (PDT), trader_4 wrote: On Monday, July 30, 2018 at 5:13:07 PM UTC-4, wrote: On Mon, 30 Jul 2018 13:30:23 -0700 (PDT), trader_4 wrote: On Monday, July 30, 2018 at 2:37:58 PM UTC-4, wrote: One more time S L O W L Y I have a transformer with two 120v secondaries. Assume the taps are A & B on each. If they are wound around the core in the same direction from A to B, do you agree each would be in phase if they are measured A to B. Now if I connect them in series A to B do you agree the current is going in the same direction in both windings so they are still in phase? You will see 240v from the A to B on each end. If they were connected A to A in series they would be 180 degrees out of phase the voltage would be zero. In fact they have to be in phase to add. Otherwise they buck. Now look at your pole pig outside your house and tell me which one it most closely resembles. You are confusing the halves of one sine wave with two sine waves. I don't know what the professor has to rationalize to teach this simple thing to the snowflakes in his class. Go ahead, keep disparaging the professor of electrical engineering with 40 years of experience, who presented the paper I cited at a power industry conference to his peers. I'm sure they are all dumb snowflakes. Did you look at the math, where he did the analysis? This coming from the guy who still can't give a definition of what N phase power even means. I gave you two or three days, then I gave you the simple definition that cover it all. One that doesn't rely on transformers, generators, it's a complete, general definition. I am just disparaging his rationalization of a simple thing. If you look at his paper, he's not rationalizing anything. He's doing a very detailed and complex analysis of how loads on the 240/120 service affect the voltage that customers receive. He starts off by explaining that what you really have are two phases there, that's how you have to model it and that's how it has to be analyzed. Then he analyzes it. It sounds like a software bug in his model that he is rationalizing. The transformer in front of your house is essentially 2 windings IN PHASE that are connected together in series. The fact that they center tap it and ground the center tap might give the impression that one suddenly changed directions but it is simply not true. The center tap creates two voltage sources, with potentially two differing currents flowing in them, of opposite polarity. What is another way of saying two voltage sources are opposite polarity when they are related periodic waveforms of the same frequency? You say that one is 180 deg out of PHASE with respect to the other. Horse ****, It is still just one voltage source No it;s not. If it was just one voltage source you could not get both 120V and 240V from it. It looks, it acts like and it is two 120V voltage sources, just like if you used two 9v batteries and connected them with a center tap in between. Would there not be two voltage sources there? How would you draw the elec engineering circuit diagram for it, except with two ideal 9V voltage sources? You can't draw the diagram with a single voltage source unless you get rid of the center tap. Then it would be a single 18V voltage source. The same with the transformer as soon as it's center tapped it behaves as two voltage sources at 120V. One of the is 180 deg out of phase with the other, with respect to the neutral. and the current is flowing the same way in each of them at any given instant. It's not flowing in the same direction in the two hots coming into your house. When the current is flowing into the house on one hot, it's flowing out of the house on the other hot. And the current doesn't have to flow out the other hot, if it's unbalanced, some of it flows out the neutral too. You are just looking at it from the middle so you get the illusion it is 2 sources. If the tap was 2/3ds the way along the secondary, would you say they were now 239 degrees out of phase? Two 9V batteries are voltage sources, yes? If I hook them in series, with a center tap between the two, do I now have only one voltage source? If so, give us the basic elec engineering circuit diagram that shows how that works. IT's obviously TWO voltage sources, just like the two halves of that transformer are two voltage source. The power engineering prof who gave that paper at the IEEE power conference is saying exactly that. IDK where the 239 deg obfuscation is coming from. If the tap was 2/3's instead of half, you'd have one side with voltage 160V, the other with 60V. Lets even make this simpler for you. I have the exact same transformer and I move the ground to one end, like you see in Europe. IDK why you keep going back to transformers, when it's IRRELEVANT how power is actually generated. I've said a dozen times now you could generate 240/120 going into a house from a generator with two coils, a transformer, or by synthesizing it totally electronically, or from an imaginary black box, It does not change what is there, how the currents flow, how the electrons behave. The electrons are still moving in the same direction at the same amperage on either side of that center tap. Kirchoff says that. Well that's absolutely wrong too. If the load is unbalanced, which is going to be the case almost all the time in a house, the current flowing in one half of the winding is going to be greater than the flow in the other half. Again, that's why it's TWO voltage sources with TWO different currents. The currents are only the same if it's a balanced load, which is an exceptional case. The only thing that differs is how much of the unbalanced load goes down the neutral but it still adds up to what goes in each end. That is why the utility only needs to measure the ungrounded leads. Wrong. If it's unbalanced then there is more current in one half of the secondary than in the other. If 120 amps is flowing out of hot 1 and 100 amps is flowing in the opposite direction in hot 2, with 20 amps in the neutral, then you have 120 amps in one half of the secondary, 100 amps in the other half. And that is EXACTLY why the elec engineering prof who wrote that paper says it needs to be analyzed as two voltage source differing in phase by 180 deg to correctly analyze the power flows. It is a single winding with one end 2xx volts above ground. You will agree this is clearly single phase? Now how does moving the grounds back to the center change the number of phases present or change the current flow in the second half of the transformer at all? Because now the two ends of the transformer are 180 deg out of phase with respect to your new center tap, that's how. Call it opposite polarity if you like. In electrical engineering, if you have two periodic voltage sources, one is the opposite polarity of the other, what do you call it? You say that one source is 180 deg out of phase from the other. If you divide a sine wave in half, it is always going to be opposite polarity on each side of the divide but it is still just one sine wave. You are not just dividing it. You created a center tap and the two ends of transformer are now at opposite polarities, 180 deg out of phase with each other with respect to the neutral/center tap. Making this 2 generators does not change a thing. If the 2 generators are in phase, hooking them in series doubles the voltage end to end but each one is still working exactly the same way. Grounding the junctions between them may look like something changed measured from the middle but nothing changed. It is my ramp again. If you are at the top, it is a ramp down. If you are at the bottom it is a ramp up but if you are in the middle it looks like 2 ramps, one up and one down. It is still just one ramp. Why won't you just go through the simple questions, one at a time for the two problems I presented: Problem #1: You say the old 90 deg two phase was over 4 wires. If I instead put it over three wires, with a shared neutral, would there still be two phases? (my answer YES) In fact they do and it comes over 5 wires. The windings look like this + with ground at the center. Why aren't you calling THAT 4 phase? The windings on both sides of the center tap will act just like what we are talking about. Make up your mind. You said many times here it was over 4 wires. And IDK what center tap you're now referring too. The example give was just generate two phases, 90 phase difference on 4 wires at a generator at 120V and run it straight to a house. I was just using the simplest example you gave, with YOUR four wires. You said that was the old 90 deg, two phase. Put two 120V windings on the same shaft at the generator and feed it to the house over three wires, shared neutral, with a 90 deg phase difference between the two coils. Would there then be two phases entering the homeowner;s house? Yes or no? (my answer YES) Yes that would be 2 phase because of the phase difference between the coils but to duplicate a house service, they would need to be IN phase with each other so you would get 240v when you summed them together. Who cares about 240V? It's just a simple hypothetical example, evolving one step at a time from what you said was two phase. I don't care what you do with the 90 deg phase diff hot when it gets where it's going. IT's irrelevant. The question is, if there are two phases there, apparently your answer is yes. Go back to your batteries. When you connect them + to - in series, you are attaching them IN phase. The current is always flowing in the same direction and the voltage adds. If you measured them from the center it might appear they are hooked up opposite but you have to look at the system as a whole, not just one segment. They are hooked up opposite from the perspective of the center tap! Your analysis is that there are not two batteries, just one. We could treat two stacked batteries that way IF there was no center tap. With the center tap they have to be treated as TWO voltage sources. Otherwise connect a lamp from the positive end of the battery on top and connect it to the center tap/neutral between the batteries. How do you analyze, how do you draw that circuit diagram without there being two diffferent voltage sources? You can't. If it's 180 phase difference, then what? Isn't that still two phases? (YES) I note you didn't answer that question. If there is truly 180 difference in current flow, the output by connecting them in series is zero. No, if you connect something between two different AC sources that are 180 out of phase, you get 2x the voltage. Exactly what happens when you connect a load between two receptacles inside your house that are on different hots, because they are 180 out of phase with each other with respect to the neutral. You have to look at things as a system when you connect them together, not just one small part. So again, I can't analyze the output stage of an audio amplifier without going all the way back to where? The power generator? |
Estimating KWh electicity billing using clamp-on amp meter
On Tuesday, July 31, 2018 at 6:26:26 AM UTC-4, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 7/28/18 3:25 PM, trader_4 wrote: Separate system? Where did that requirement come from? Three phase AFAIK is generated from 3 windings on the same shaft, separated by 120 deg. Do diesel 3 phase generators have 3 motors? What's does a "separate system" even mean? They can't be really separate and be locked at a fixed phase separation. I guess this is as good a place as any to ask since you mentioned diesel generators. Most irrigation systems are powered by three phase 480. A lot of those are generator powered. The power unit powers the well via a power take off and also a belt driven generator on the front end. The system motors driving the towers are three phase 480. The control circuits are 120. So there's a transformer for the 120. It takes two lines of the 480 and kicks it down to 120. There is also a tap on that transformer secondary supplying 24 volts. What would you call that? One phase 120 and then 24 volts. There is only one source conductor, one return conductor in each of those circuits, correct? In the case of 240/120 to a house we have two source conductors, one neutral return conductor, which acts as two 120V voltage sources, with one being 180 out of phase with the other, with respect to the neutral. |
Estimating KWh electicity billing using clamp-on amp meter
On Tuesday, July 31, 2018 at 9:11:10 AM UTC-4, Morph wrote:
On 07/30/2018 08:14 PM, trader_4 wrote: Good grief. It's not an issue of software modeling. It's an issue of what the circuit really is, how it really behaves. From a circuit standpoint, you don't need to know if it came from a transformer or if it came from a synthesized electronically generated source from a battery. The 240/120 service looks like TWO ideal voltage sources, that are 180 deg out of phase or equivalently, of opposite polarity sharing a common neutral. There is no other way to model it. That's all he's doing. That's what everybody does, because that's what it is, what it behaves like. If you feel otherwise, show us your alternate model. It's a transformer. Single phase in yields single phase out. All you got is a cheap parlor trick using a dual-trace scope.Â* Good grief! Tell that to the electrical engineering professor, 40 years experience in power engineering, IEEE Life Fellow who presented his paper at a power engineering conference attended by his peers. He says exactly what I said: https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/4520128/ .. Introduction The analysis of three-phase unbalanced distribution feeders normally models the load of distribution transformers at the primary terminals of the transformer. For single-phase center tapped transformers serving a three-wire secondary the load will serve two 120 volt loads and a 240 volt load. The actual load on the transformer will be the sum of these loads. Unfortunately, the actual customer loading is generally not known so that some form of load allocation will be necessary to model the load of the transformer for analysis purposes. [ I suppose you could do the electrical engineering analysis that follows over the next several pages? I'm sure the prof could definie N phase power without taking about two phase 90, transformers, or anything else. I did. Where is your definition? How can you argue about what something is, when you can't define it? I defined it: N Phase Power - A power delivery system that uses N related voltage sources, that are periodic waveforms of the same frequency, differing only in phase. |
Estimating KWh electicity billing using clamp-on amp meter
On Tuesday, July 31, 2018 at 9:42:37 AM UTC-4, wrote:
this entire discussion is about semantics for sine waves, a polarity inversion is equivalent to 180 deg phase shift. The two operations are different, but the resulting signals are identical. tastes great, less filling choose one mark I agree! |
Estimating KWh electicity billing using clamp-on amp meter
On Tuesday, July 31, 2018 at 12:17:03 PM UTC-4, Mark Lloyd wrote:
On 07/30/2018 06:31 PM, wrote: [snip] In "N-phase" it will be required to have "N" different sine waves but that is just a red herring in this discussion because we just have 1, 2 and 3. In each of those there is a sine wave displaced by 90 or 120 degrees. The meaning of "phase" puts no limits on how many you can have. I have actually seen 4-phase (not for power distribution, but that has nothing to do with the meaning of "phase"). I found an article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyphase_system) that mentions a 6-phase system. -- +1 I gave my definition of N phase power, no one else has: N Phase Power - A power delivery system that uses N related voltage sources, that are periodic waveforms of the same frequency, differing only in phase. It fits: One phase two phase 90 two phase 179 two phase 180 three phase six phase ..... |
Estimating KWh electicity billing using clamp-on amp meter
and the current is flowing the same way in each of them at any given instant. It's not flowing in the same direction in the two hots coming into your house. When the current is flowing into the house on one hot, it's flowing out of the house on the other hot. And the current doesn't have to flow out the other hot, if it's unbalanced, some of it flows out the neutral too. It is still flowing at the same direction when you understand the concept of a circuit. If I take your concept that every segment of a winding constitutes a phase, why not just tap that secondary twice, create 3 segments, then I have 3 phases and I can run a 3p motor. |
Estimating KWh electicity billing using clamp-on amp meter
On 7/31/2018 3:09 PM, trader_4 wrote:
Well that's absolutely wrong too. If the load is unbalanced, which is going to be the case almost all the time in a house, the current flowing in one half of the winding is going to be greater than the flow in the other half. Again, that's why it's TWO voltage sources with TWO different currents. The currents are only the same if it's a balanced load, which is an exceptional case. Regarding voltage, at any instant in time, the rate of rise or fall along the entire length of the secondary coil is the same...because there is only one phase. |
Estimating KWh electicity billing using clamp-on amp meter
If I take your concept that every segment of a winding constitutes a phase, why not just tap that secondary twice, create 3 segments, then I have 3 phases and I can run a 3p motor. A 3 phase motor requires 3 SPECIFIC phases.... 120 degrees apart. 3 arbitrary phases will not do. mark |
Estimating KWh electicity billing using clamp-on amp meter
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Estimating KWh electicity billing using clamp-on amp meter
On Tuesday, July 31, 2018 at 4:24:18 PM UTC-4, wrote:
and the current is flowing the same way in each of them at any given instant. It's not flowing in the same direction in the two hots coming into your house. When the current is flowing into the house on one hot, it's flowing out of the house on the other hot. And the current doesn't have to flow out the other hot, if it's unbalanced, some of it flows out the neutral too. It is still flowing at the same direction when you understand the concept of a circuit. If I take your concept that every segment of a winding constitutes a phase, why not just tap that secondary twice, create 3 segments, then I have 3 phases and I can run a 3p motor. I never said that every segment of a winding constitutes a phase, only that by center tapping it you create two phases with respect to the center point. If you make more taps, those points would be in phase with or 180 out of phase from the other taps. Again 180 out of phase is the same thing as opposite polarity in an AC circuit. |
Estimating KWh electicity billing using clamp-on amp meter
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Estimating KWh electicity billing using clamp-on amp meter
On Wednesday, August 1, 2018 at 12:15:47 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wed, 1 Aug 2018 06:22:14 -0700 (PDT), wrote: If I take your concept that every segment of a winding constitutes a phase, why not just tap that secondary twice, create 3 segments, then I have 3 phases and I can run a 3p motor. A 3 phase motor requires 3 SPECIFIC phases.... 120 degrees apart. 3 arbitrary phases will not do. mark Explain that to Trader. He seems to think that every time you tap a secondary you create another phase. You're completely and deliberately misrepresenting what I've posted here. You said: "If the tap was 2/3ds the way along the secondary, would you say they were now 239 degrees out of phase?" IDK where that came from, but I replied that if you made that tap, you'd have one coil with 240 * .66 VOLTS, the other with 240 * .33 VOLTS. The phases of the two would be exactly the same as with the center tap. You'd see two phases from the ends of the transformer with respect to the midpoint. If a center tap transformer does not look like two voltage sources that are of opposite polarity, (out of phase by 180), then explain to us the simple electrical engineering circuit model you'd use? My model uses two 120V ideal voltage sources that are connected together, the neutral being the connection point between them. They are out of phase by 180 degrees or of opposite polarity, which is the same thing with an AC waveform. Poster Mako stated the same thing. That is how you model the 3 wire service going into the house. Explain how you draw the circuit model without two voltage sources that are 180 from each other with respect to the neutral. |
Estimating KWh electicity billing using clamp-on amp meter
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Estimating KWh electicity billing using clamp-on amp meter
On Wednesday, August 1, 2018 at 1:55:34 PM UTC-4, notX wrote:
On 08/01/2018 08:22 AM, wrote: If I take your concept that every segment of a winding constitutes a phase, why not just tap that secondary twice, create 3 segments, then I have 3 phases and I can run a 3p motor. A 3 phase motor requires 3 SPECIFIC phases.... 120 degrees apart. 3 arbitrary phases will not do. mark It would be possible to build a 3-phase motor that requires the phases to be at 0, 90, and 100 degrees. I don't know of ANY benefit to doing so, but it IS possible. Also, I would like to know the angles of the 3 phases you could get from a single double-tapped winding. The best I got (thought experiment) was 2 phases and a short circuit. You get two phases that are 180 apart with respect to the center tap. Which is why you can't randomly parallel any two receptacles in your house. The ones that are on the same phase, you can. The ones that are on opposite phases, you'd get your dead short. |
Estimating KWh electicity billing using clamp-on amp meter
On Wed, 1 Aug 2018 12:41:43 -0500, Sam E
wrote: On 07/31/2018 03:24 PM, wrote: [snip] If I take your concept that every segment of a winding constitutes a phase, why not just tap that secondary twice, create 3 segments, then I have 3 phases and I can run a 3p motor. Somehow, a wiring diagram for that might help. And 2 phases, 90 degrees apart DOES exist. It's just inside a capacitor-start motor. I can draw it quite easily and if it is from a 3 phase source it is a delta but if it is from a single phase source it is a toaster. The thing you can't grasp is 180 degrees out is just a different view of a single phase secondary. I really don't care anymore. |
Estimating KWh electicity billing using clamp-on amp meter
posted for all of us...
On Wed, 1 Aug 2018 06:22:14 -0700 (PDT), wrote: If I take your concept that every segment of a winding constitutes a phase, why not just tap that secondary twice, create 3 segments, then I have 3 phases and I can run a 3p motor. A 3 phase motor requires 3 SPECIFIC phases.... 120 degrees apart. 3 arbitrary phases will not do. mark Explain that to Trader. He seems to think that every time you tap a secondary you create another phase. I would like this discussion to phase......out -- Tekkie |
Estimating KWh electicity billing using clamp-on amp meter
On Wed, 1 Aug 2018 10:49:18 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote: Explain that to Trader. He seems to think that every time you tap a secondary you create another phase. You're completely and deliberately misrepresenting what I've posted here. You said: "If the tap was 2/3ds the way along the secondary, would you say they were now 239 degrees out of phase?" IDK where that came from, but I replied that if you made that tap, you'd have one coil with 240 * .66 VOLTS, the other with 240 * .33 VOLTS. The phases of the two would be exactly the same as with the center tap. You'd see two phases from the ends of the transformer with respect to the midpoint. Exactly except you are simply looking at one phase, looking in 2 directions from an arbitrary point along the winding. Do you think the hands on your clock change direction at 12 and 6? After all, first they are going down, then they are going up. |
Estimating KWh electicity billing using clamp-on amp meter
On Wed, 1 Aug 2018 12:55:29 -0500, notX
wrote: It would be possible to build a 3-phase motor that requires the phases to be at 0, 90, and 100 degrees. I don't know of ANY benefit to doing so, but it IS possible. A 3 phase motor would still run on that, just not very efficiently. |
Estimating KWh electicity billing using clamp-on amp meter
On Wed, 1 Aug 2018 11:20:30 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote: On Wednesday, August 1, 2018 at 1:55:34 PM UTC-4, notX wrote: On 08/01/2018 08:22 AM, wrote: If I take your concept that every segment of a winding constitutes a phase, why not just tap that secondary twice, create 3 segments, then I have 3 phases and I can run a 3p motor. A 3 phase motor requires 3 SPECIFIC phases.... 120 degrees apart. 3 arbitrary phases will not do. mark It would be possible to build a 3-phase motor that requires the phases to be at 0, 90, and 100 degrees. I don't know of ANY benefit to doing so, but it IS possible. Also, I would like to know the angles of the 3 phases you could get from a single double-tapped winding. The best I got (thought experiment) was 2 phases and a short circuit. You get two phases that are 180 apart with respect to the center tap. Which is why you can't randomly parallel any two receptacles in your house. The ones that are on the same phase, you can. The ones that are on opposite phases, you'd get your dead short. They are still on the same phase, you are just connecting L1 and L2 from the service together. The grounded conductor has nothing to do with it at that point and no current will flow in it. (same as what happens in your electric water heater except there is an ~18 ohm resistor making the connection) |
Estimating KWh electicity billing using clamp-on amp meter
On Wednesday, August 1, 2018 at 2:38:32 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wed, 1 Aug 2018 12:41:43 -0500, Sam E wrote: On 07/31/2018 03:24 PM, wrote: [snip] If I take your concept that every segment of a winding constitutes a phase, why not just tap that secondary twice, create 3 segments, then I have 3 phases and I can run a 3p motor. Somehow, a wiring diagram for that might help. And 2 phases, 90 degrees apart DOES exist. It's just inside a capacitor-start motor. I can draw it quite easily and if it is from a 3 phase source it is a delta but if it is from a single phase source it is a toaster. The thing you can't grasp is 180 degrees out is just a different view of a single phase secondary. I really don't care anymore. What you can't grasp is that how two different phases are derived, doesn't matter. The only issue is how many phases you see when you analyze it. And 240/120 is nothing more than two 120V voltage sources sharing a common neutral, one 180 out of phase from the other. I've asked a dozen times, if instead of from a transformer the you had two 120V coils coming from a generator, two wires, sharing a common return and those coils were 120 out of phase on the shaft, would there be two phases going into the house? At 179 deg separation would there be two? How about moving one coil one more degree, what happens then? If the additional phase disappears, then I'd say that's a parlor trick. And if it doesn't then what you have going into the house from that experiment is exactly the same electrically as what is derived from the center tapped transformer. You can't tell the difference, they perform exactly the same, they are the same. |
Estimating KWh electicity billing using clamp-on amp meter
On Wednesday, August 1, 2018 at 2:41:24 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wed, 1 Aug 2018 10:49:18 -0700 (PDT), trader_4 wrote: Explain that to Trader. He seems to think that every time you tap a secondary you create another phase. You're completely and deliberately misrepresenting what I've posted here. You said: "If the tap was 2/3ds the way along the secondary, would you say they were now 239 degrees out of phase?" IDK where that came from, but I replied that if you made that tap, you'd have one coil with 240 * .66 VOLTS, the other with 240 * .33 VOLTS. The phases of the two would be exactly the same as with the center tap. You'd see two phases from the ends of the transformer with respect to the midpoint. Exactly except you are simply looking at one phase, looking in 2 directions from an arbitrary point along the winding. Which creates TWO 120V voltage sources that are 180 deg out of phase with each other with respect to the neutral. Do you think the hands on your clock change direction at 12 and 6? After all, first they are going down, then they are going up. Do you not understand that 180 deg phase shift is the same as opposite polarity? If there aren't two phases coming into the house, why can't I parallel any two receptacles at random? It's just like with 3 phases. If I want to parallel two, I better be sure they are the same phase conductor. Someone comes to you and asks, why can't I just parallel any two receptacles in the house? What's your answer? And the answer shouldn't involve transformers, because the answer should apply regardless of how the service is provided. My answer, there are two different phases, 180 deg apart, works regardless of how the two phases got there. Could come directly from a generator as I've cited for example many times now. Could come purely electronically synthesized off a battery, could come from an unknown black box, could come from a center tapped transformer. It doesn't matter, it;s all covered, all explained, it all looks, acts and behaves exactly the same. And it doesn't have to be 180, could be 179 deg, 90 deg, etc. It's all covered. It's the voltages, currents and phase relationships that define it, not how it was created. |
Estimating KWh electicity billing using clamp-on amp meter
On Wednesday, August 1, 2018 at 2:47:22 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wed, 1 Aug 2018 11:20:30 -0700 (PDT), trader_4 wrote: On Wednesday, August 1, 2018 at 1:55:34 PM UTC-4, notX wrote: On 08/01/2018 08:22 AM, wrote: If I take your concept that every segment of a winding constitutes a phase, why not just tap that secondary twice, create 3 segments, then I have 3 phases and I can run a 3p motor. A 3 phase motor requires 3 SPECIFIC phases.... 120 degrees apart. 3 arbitrary phases will not do. mark It would be possible to build a 3-phase motor that requires the phases to be at 0, 90, and 100 degrees. I don't know of ANY benefit to doing so, but it IS possible. Also, I would like to know the angles of the 3 phases you could get from a single double-tapped winding. The best I got (thought experiment) was 2 phases and a short circuit. You get two phases that are 180 apart with respect to the center tap. Which is why you can't randomly parallel any two receptacles in your house. The ones that are on the same phase, you can. The ones that are on opposite phases, you'd get your dead short. They are still on the same phase, you are just connecting L1 and L2 from the service together. The grounded conductor has nothing to do with it at that point and no current will flow in it. (same as what happens in your electric water heater except there is an ~18 ohm resistor making the connection) If they are the same phase, same voltage, then there is no voltage between them. If I take one phase of a three phase service and connect it to the same phase, what happens? Nothing, they are at the same potential. Why can't you define N phase power for us? I don't see how you can argue about what something is or isn't yet be unable to give a definition. That 3 wire service behaves as two 120V voltage sources that are 180 deg out of phase from each other. The IEEE Fellow, professor, 40 years experience, presented his paper at the power engineering conference of his peers and stated exactly the same thing. |
Estimating KWh electicity billing using clamp-on amp meter
On Wed, 1 Aug 2018 12:33:27 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote: On Wednesday, August 1, 2018 at 2:38:32 PM UTC-4, wrote: On Wed, 1 Aug 2018 12:41:43 -0500, Sam E wrote: On 07/31/2018 03:24 PM, wrote: [snip] If I take your concept that every segment of a winding constitutes a phase, why not just tap that secondary twice, create 3 segments, then I have 3 phases and I can run a 3p motor. Somehow, a wiring diagram for that might help. And 2 phases, 90 degrees apart DOES exist. It's just inside a capacitor-start motor. I can draw it quite easily and if it is from a 3 phase source it is a delta but if it is from a single phase source it is a toaster. The thing you can't grasp is 180 degrees out is just a different view of a single phase secondary. I really don't care anymore. What you can't grasp is that how two different phases are derived, doesn't matter. The only issue is how many phases you see when you analyze it. And 240/120 is nothing more than two 120V voltage sources sharing a common neutral, one 180 out of phase from the other. I've asked a dozen times, if instead of from a transformer the you had two 120V coils coming from a generator, two wires, sharing a common return and those coils were 120 out of phase on the shaft, would there be two phases going into the house? At 179 deg separation would there be two? How about moving one coil one more degree, what happens then? If the additional phase disappears, then I'd say that's a parlor trick. And if it doesn't then what you have going into the house from that experiment is exactly the same electrically as what is derived from the center tapped transformer. You can't tell the difference, they perform exactly the same, they are the same. Your problem is you can't step back and look at this as a system. You are locked up inside the panelboard enclosure with tunnel vision focused on the main bonding jumper like that is the center of the universe. If you look at the stars from earth, it is easy to think they revolve around the earth. |
Estimating KWh electicity billing using clamp-on amp meter
On Wed, 1 Aug 2018 12:52:58 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote: On Wednesday, August 1, 2018 at 2:41:24 PM UTC-4, wrote: On Wed, 1 Aug 2018 10:49:18 -0700 (PDT), trader_4 wrote: Explain that to Trader. He seems to think that every time you tap a secondary you create another phase. You're completely and deliberately misrepresenting what I've posted here. You said: "If the tap was 2/3ds the way along the secondary, would you say they were now 239 degrees out of phase?" IDK where that came from, but I replied that if you made that tap, you'd have one coil with 240 * .66 VOLTS, the other with 240 * .33 VOLTS. The phases of the two would be exactly the same as with the center tap. You'd see two phases from the ends of the transformer with respect to the midpoint. Exactly except you are simply looking at one phase, looking in 2 directions from an arbitrary point along the winding. Which creates TWO 120V voltage sources that are 180 deg out of phase with each other with respect to the neutral. Do you think the hands on your clock change direction at 12 and 6? After all, first they are going down, then they are going up. Do you not understand that 180 deg phase shift is the same as opposite polarity? If there aren't two phases coming into the house, why can't I parallel any two receptacles at random? It's just like with 3 phases. If I want to parallel two, I better be sure they are the same phase conductor. Someone comes to you and asks, why can't I just parallel any two receptacles in the house? What's your answer? And the answer shouldn't involve transformers, because the answer should apply regardless of how the service is provided. My answer, there are two different phases, 180 deg apart, works regardless of how the two phases got there. Could come directly from a generator as I've cited for example many times now. Could come purely electronically synthesized off a battery, could come from an unknown black box, could come from a center tapped transformer. It doesn't matter, it;s all covered, all explained, it all looks, acts and behaves exactly the same. And it doesn't have to be 180, could be 179 deg, 90 deg, etc. It's all covered. It's the voltages, currents and phase relationships that define it, not how it was created. Quite simply you can't connect the ungrounded conductors together because they are at opposite ends of a 240v single phase secondary. The grounded conductor does nor even enter into it at all and there are not 2 phases at all. |
Estimating KWh electicity billing using clamp-on amp meter
On Wed, 1 Aug 2018 12:59:37 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote: If they are the same phase, same voltage, then there is no voltage Now you are confusing "phase" with difference in potential. There is always a difference of potential in any circuit or current will not flow. Mr Ohm teaches us that. That is even true with DC with no phase at all. Ungrounded conductors do not necessarily mean phase. Do you agree a single untapped secondary grounded at one end like Europe would be single phase? (2xx volts and ground no center tap) |
Estimating KWh electicity billing using clamp-on amp meter
On Wednesday, August 1, 2018 at 8:43:21 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wed, 1 Aug 2018 12:33:27 -0700 (PDT), trader_4 wrote: On Wednesday, August 1, 2018 at 2:38:32 PM UTC-4, wrote: On Wed, 1 Aug 2018 12:41:43 -0500, Sam E wrote: On 07/31/2018 03:24 PM, wrote: [snip] If I take your concept that every segment of a winding constitutes a phase, why not just tap that secondary twice, create 3 segments, then I have 3 phases and I can run a 3p motor. Somehow, a wiring diagram for that might help. And 2 phases, 90 degrees apart DOES exist. It's just inside a capacitor-start motor. I can draw it quite easily and if it is from a 3 phase source it is a delta but if it is from a single phase source it is a toaster. The thing you can't grasp is 180 degrees out is just a different view of a single phase secondary. I really don't care anymore. What you can't grasp is that how two different phases are derived, doesn't matter. The only issue is how many phases you see when you analyze it. And 240/120 is nothing more than two 120V voltage sources sharing a common neutral, one 180 out of phase from the other. I've asked a dozen times, if instead of from a transformer the you had two 120V coils coming from a generator, two wires, sharing a common return and those coils were 120 out of phase on the shaft, would there be two phases going into the house? At 179 deg separation would there be two? How about moving one coil one more degree, what happens then? If the additional phase disappears, then I'd say that's a parlor trick. And if it doesn't then what you have going into the house from that experiment is exactly the same electrically as what is derived from the center tapped transformer. You can't tell the difference, they perform exactly the same, they are the same. Your problem is you can't step back and look at this as a system. I can analyze it any way you like. It does not change the way the electrons are flowing in the 3 wires coming into the house and that they represent TWO voltage sources, one 180 deg out of phase with the other, or of opposite polarity if you like. Out of phase 180 and opposite polarity are the same thing in an AC system. You are locked up inside the panelboard enclosure with tunnel vision focused on the main bonding jumper like that is the center of the universe. If you look at the stars from earth, it is easy to think they revolve around the earth. The neutral is the center of the universe, not by chance, but by design. Yet somehow you and that other guy here claim it's a parlor trick to hook up a scope and use the common point of the system as the ground, reference point, etc. And when you do that, what do you see? Two conductors, differing in phase by 180 degrees. Which of course is exactly what the electrical engineering professor with 40 years experience, consulting for utilities, presenting his paper at the power industry conference said too. |
Estimating KWh electicity billing using clamp-on amp meter
On Wednesday, August 1, 2018 at 8:46:09 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wed, 1 Aug 2018 12:52:58 -0700 (PDT), trader_4 wrote: On Wednesday, August 1, 2018 at 2:41:24 PM UTC-4, wrote: On Wed, 1 Aug 2018 10:49:18 -0700 (PDT), trader_4 wrote: Explain that to Trader. He seems to think that every time you tap a secondary you create another phase. You're completely and deliberately misrepresenting what I've posted here. You said: "If the tap was 2/3ds the way along the secondary, would you say they were now 239 degrees out of phase?" IDK where that came from, but I replied that if you made that tap, you'd have one coil with 240 * .66 VOLTS, the other with 240 * .33 VOLTS. The phases of the two would be exactly the same as with the center tap. You'd see two phases from the ends of the transformer with respect to the midpoint. Exactly except you are simply looking at one phase, looking in 2 directions from an arbitrary point along the winding. Which creates TWO 120V voltage sources that are 180 deg out of phase with each other with respect to the neutral. Do you think the hands on your clock change direction at 12 and 6? After all, first they are going down, then they are going up. Do you not understand that 180 deg phase shift is the same as opposite polarity? If there aren't two phases coming into the house, why can't I parallel any two receptacles at random? It's just like with 3 phases. If I want to parallel two, I better be sure they are the same phase conductor. Someone comes to you and asks, why can't I just parallel any two receptacles in the house? What's your answer? And the answer shouldn't involve transformers, because the answer should apply regardless of how the service is provided. My answer, there are two different phases, 180 deg apart, works regardless of how the two phases got there. Could come directly from a generator as I've cited for example many times now. Could come purely electronically synthesized off a battery, could come from an unknown black box, could come from a center tapped transformer. It doesn't matter, it;s all covered, all explained, it all looks, acts and behaves exactly the same. And it doesn't have to be 180, could be 179 deg, 90 deg, etc. It's all covered. It's the voltages, currents and phase relationships that define it, not how it was created. Quite simply you can't connect the ungrounded conductors together because they are at opposite ends of a 240v single phase secondary. Could you connect them together if they came out of a black box, where you didn't know how they were generated? Could you connect them together if the originated from a generator, with two coils separated by 180 deg? That's the beauty of consistent definitions. We define and analyze without having to know exactly how it's generated, because it doesn't matter. Person asks, can I parallel these wires of a three phase system? My answer: Yes, if they are of the same phase, otherwise no. Person asks, can I parallel these two receptacles in my house? My answer: Yes, if they are of the same phase, otherwise no. The grounded conductor does nor even enter into it at all and there are not 2 phases at all. What? The neutral is suddenly gone now? You can't get 120V without the neutral, except for the special, unusual case where there are loads on both sides and they are exactly balanced. Again, that's why it's TWO voltage sources coming from the TWO halves of the transformer and why it looks like, acts like and is two voltage sources that are 180 out of phase or of alternate polarity, which is the same thing. |
Estimating KWh electicity billing using clamp-on amp meter
On Wednesday, August 1, 2018 at 8:51:03 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wed, 1 Aug 2018 12:59:37 -0700 (PDT), trader_4 wrote: If they are the same phase, same voltage, then there is no voltage Now you are confusing "phase" with difference in potential. Not confusing anything at all. If two conductors are of the same phase and same voltage, then there is no potential difference between them. There is always a difference of potential in any circuit or current will not flow. Mr Ohm teaches us that. That is even true with DC with no phase at all. There isn't a difference in potential and no current flows if I connect two conductors that are the same phase and voltage. That's why I can parallel receptacles in a house that are on the same phase and nothing happens. If I try to parallel ones that are on the two different 120V phases, then Kapow! Ungrounded conductors do not necessarily mean phase. I never said otherwise. Do you agree a single untapped secondary grounded at one end like Europe would be single phase? (2xx volts and ground no center tap) Yes, because then it's ONE voltage source. When you center tap it you create TWO separate voltage sources tied together, with one end of the transformer 180 deg out of phase from the other end with respect to the NEUTRAL. And the neutral isn't some random, insignificant point. It's the ground, common reference point for the electrical service. So, if I hook up the ground side of a scope to it and see a 120V sine wave on one hot and trace the 120V sine wave from the other hot under it, I see and have two 120V waveforms that are 180 deg out of phase. Or alternate polarity if you like. |
Estimating KWh electicity billing using clamp-on amp meter
Again, that's why it's TWO voltage sources coming from the TWO halves of the transformer and why it looks like, acts like and is two voltage sources that are 180 out of phase or of alternate polarity, which is the same thing. so the problem here is the power engineer guy looks at the two signals that come off the pole into your house that are 180 deg apart and/or opposite polarity and in his mind these are ONE phase because he knows they were both derived from ONE phase of the 3 phase grid system and one is just inverted polarity of the other. OK that is a valid view. the signal engineer looks at the same two signals coming off the pole that are 180 deg apart and says, these are two sine waves that are 180 deg phase so it is TWO phases. This is also a valid view. Lets have a beer. mark |
Estimating KWh electicity billing using clamp-on amp meter
On Thursday, August 2, 2018 at 11:46:38 AM UTC-4, wrote:
Again, that's why it's TWO voltage sources coming from the TWO halves of the transformer and why it looks like, acts like and is two voltage sources that are 180 out of phase or of alternate polarity, which is the same thing. so the problem here is the power engineer guy looks at the two signals that come off the pole into your house that are 180 deg apart and/or opposite polarity and in his mind these are ONE phase because he knows they were both derived from ONE phase of the 3 phase grid system and one is just inverted polarity of the other. OK that is a valid view. the signal engineer looks at the same two signals coming off the pole that are 180 deg apart and says, these are two sine waves that are 180 deg phase so it is TWO phases. This is also a valid view. Lets have a beer. mark I'm good with that. It's consistent with what I said in my first post. |
Estimating KWh electicity billing using clamp-on amp meter
On Thu, 2 Aug 2018 08:27:27 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote: On Wednesday, August 1, 2018 at 8:43:21 PM UTC-4, wrote: On Wed, 1 Aug 2018 12:33:27 -0700 (PDT), trader_4 wrote: On Wednesday, August 1, 2018 at 2:38:32 PM UTC-4, wrote: On Wed, 1 Aug 2018 12:41:43 -0500, Sam E wrote: On 07/31/2018 03:24 PM, wrote: [snip] If I take your concept that every segment of a winding constitutes a phase, why not just tap that secondary twice, create 3 segments, then I have 3 phases and I can run a 3p motor. Somehow, a wiring diagram for that might help. And 2 phases, 90 degrees apart DOES exist. It's just inside a capacitor-start motor. I can draw it quite easily and if it is from a 3 phase source it is a delta but if it is from a single phase source it is a toaster. The thing you can't grasp is 180 degrees out is just a different view of a single phase secondary. I really don't care anymore. What you can't grasp is that how two different phases are derived, doesn't matter. The only issue is how many phases you see when you analyze it. And 240/120 is nothing more than two 120V voltage sources sharing a common neutral, one 180 out of phase from the other. I've asked a dozen times, if instead of from a transformer the you had two 120V coils coming from a generator, two wires, sharing a common return and those coils were 120 out of phase on the shaft, would there be two phases going into the house? At 179 deg separation would there be two? How about moving one coil one more degree, what happens then? If the additional phase disappears, then I'd say that's a parlor trick. And if it doesn't then what you have going into the house from that experiment is exactly the same electrically as what is derived from the center tapped transformer. You can't tell the difference, they perform exactly the same, they are the same. Your problem is you can't step back and look at this as a system. I can analyze it any way you like. It does not change the way the electrons are flowing in the 3 wires coming into the house and that they represent TWO voltage sources, one 180 deg out of phase with the other, or of opposite polarity if you like. Out of phase 180 and opposite polarity are the same thing in an AC system. No you are simply wrong. At any particular instant the current is flowing in exactly the same direction in the system. You have to look at the source. ALL of the power is coming in from the grid in the same direction at any given instant and Mr Kirchoff says the current in will always equal the current out. You are locked up inside the panelboard enclosure with tunnel vision focused on the main bonding jumper like that is the center of the universe. If you look at the stars from earth, it is easy to think they revolve around the earth. The neutral is the center of the universe, not by chance, but by design. Yet somehow you and that other guy here claim it's a parlor trick to hook up a scope and use the common point of the system as the ground, reference point, etc. And when you do that, what do you see? Two conductors, differing in phase by 180 degrees. Which of course is exactly what the electrical engineering professor with 40 years experience, consulting for utilities, presenting his paper at the power industry conference said too. You are all still trying to rationalize what you see standing in one particular spot and not looking at the whole system. Simply the fact that you think current suddenly switches direction in the same part of the cycle demonstrates that. If we assume current flows negative to positive (no I am not going to start up that fight) If L1 is negative at some particular time, current will flow from L1 towards the grounded conductor but at that same time L2 is positive and current will keep going in that same direction moving away from the grounded conductor ending up in L2. In fact the grounded conductor really has nothing to do with it when you get back to the transformer. the current is always flowing in the same direction. That is why the utility DOES NOT METER the neutral. |
Estimating KWh electicity billing using clamp-on amp meter
On Thu, 2 Aug 2018 08:33:38 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote: On Wednesday, August 1, 2018 at 8:46:09 PM UTC-4, wrote: On Wed, 1 Aug 2018 12:52:58 -0700 (PDT), trader_4 wrote: On Wednesday, August 1, 2018 at 2:41:24 PM UTC-4, wrote: On Wed, 1 Aug 2018 10:49:18 -0700 (PDT), trader_4 wrote: Explain that to Trader. He seems to think that every time you tap a secondary you create another phase. You're completely and deliberately misrepresenting what I've posted here. You said: "If the tap was 2/3ds the way along the secondary, would you say they were now 239 degrees out of phase?" IDK where that came from, but I replied that if you made that tap, you'd have one coil with 240 * .66 VOLTS, the other with 240 * .33 VOLTS. The phases of the two would be exactly the same as with the center tap. You'd see two phases from the ends of the transformer with respect to the midpoint. Exactly except you are simply looking at one phase, looking in 2 directions from an arbitrary point along the winding. Which creates TWO 120V voltage sources that are 180 deg out of phase with each other with respect to the neutral. Do you think the hands on your clock change direction at 12 and 6? After all, first they are going down, then they are going up. Do you not understand that 180 deg phase shift is the same as opposite polarity? If there aren't two phases coming into the house, why can't I parallel any two receptacles at random? It's just like with 3 phases. If I want to parallel two, I better be sure they are the same phase conductor. Someone comes to you and asks, why can't I just parallel any two receptacles in the house? What's your answer? And the answer shouldn't involve transformers, because the answer should apply regardless of how the service is provided. My answer, there are two different phases, 180 deg apart, works regardless of how the two phases got there. Could come directly from a generator as I've cited for example many times now. Could come purely electronically synthesized off a battery, could come from an unknown black box, could come from a center tapped transformer. It doesn't matter, it;s all covered, all explained, it all looks, acts and behaves exactly the same. And it doesn't have to be 180, could be 179 deg, 90 deg, etc. It's all covered. It's the voltages, currents and phase relationships that define it, not how it was created. Quite simply you can't connect the ungrounded conductors together because they are at opposite ends of a 240v single phase secondary. Could you connect them together if they came out of a black box, where you didn't know how they were generated? Could you connect them together if the originated from a generator, with two coils separated by 180 deg? That's the beauty of consistent definitions. We define and analyze without having to know exactly how it's generated, because it doesn't matter. It certainly matters where they are generated because if they came from totally separate sources you could connect them together, no matter how they were polarized and the voltages would either buck or boost. but there would be no fire. It is the fact that you are using two halves of a single winding that makes current flow from L1 to L2. Person asks, can I parallel these wires of a three phase system? My answer: Yes, if they are of the same phase, otherwise no. Person asks, can I parallel these two receptacles in my house? My answer: Yes, if they are of the same phase, otherwise no. In a 3 phase system they are different independent phases so you can connect them all together (delta) The grounded conductor does nor even enter into it at all and there are not 2 phases at all. What? The neutral is suddenly gone now? You can't get 120V without the neutral, except for the special, unusual case where there are loads on both sides and they are exactly balanced. Getting 120 has nothing to do with how many phases you have. It is still the same phase, just cut in half. If I cut a cookie in half do I have 2 halves of the same cookie or do I suddenly have two cookies? Again, that's why it's TWO voltage sources coming from the TWO halves of the transformer and why it looks like, acts like and is two voltage sources that are 180 out of phase or of alternate polarity, which is the same thing. That is where you are just wrong. It is not 2 sources, it is two ends of one voltage source. Do you understand what a "circuit" means? It is starting to make sense now, why these professors have to come up with such convoluted "models" to explain such a simple concept. If this was a DC supply, like our two batteries in series, are you still going to say the current suddenly changed directions at the point where they connect? |
Estimating KWh electicity billing using clamp-on amp meter
On Thu, 2 Aug 2018 08:42:04 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote: On Wednesday, August 1, 2018 at 8:51:03 PM UTC-4, wrote: On Wed, 1 Aug 2018 12:59:37 -0700 (PDT), trader_4 wrote: If they are the same phase, same voltage, then there is no voltage Now you are confusing "phase" with difference in potential. Not confusing anything at all. If two conductors are of the same phase and same voltage, then there is no potential difference between them. There is always a difference of potential in any circuit or current will not flow. Mr Ohm teaches us that. That is even true with DC with no phase at all. There isn't a difference in potential and no current flows if I connect two conductors that are the same phase and voltage. That's why I can parallel receptacles in a house that are on the same phase and nothing happens. If I try to parallel ones that are on the two different 120V phases, then Kapow! You are over complicating a simple fact. You are connecting line 1 to line 2, the two ends of the secondary. Where the ground happens to be or even the fact that there is a center tap does not enter into it at all at that point. Ungrounded conductors do not necessarily mean phase. I never said otherwise. OK then, there are 2 ungrounded conductors coming into your house, not 2 phases. Do you agree a single untapped secondary grounded at one end like Europe would be single phase? (2xx volts and ground no center tap) Yes, because then it's ONE voltage source. When you center tap it you create TWO separate voltage sources tied together No there is still ONE source, that happens to be divided., It is still just one secondary to one transformer. |
Estimating KWh electicity billing using clamp-on amp meter
On Thu, 2 Aug 2018 09:33:11 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote: On Thursday, August 2, 2018 at 11:46:38 AM UTC-4, wrote: Again, that's why it's TWO voltage sources coming from the TWO halves of the transformer and why it looks like, acts like and is two voltage sources that are 180 out of phase or of alternate polarity, which is the same thing. so the problem here is the power engineer guy looks at the two signals that come off the pole into your house that are 180 deg apart and/or opposite polarity and in his mind these are ONE phase because he knows they were both derived from ONE phase of the 3 phase grid system and one is just inverted polarity of the other. OK that is a valid view. the signal engineer looks at the same two signals coming off the pole that are 180 deg apart and says, these are two sine waves that are 180 deg phase so it is TWO phases. This is also a valid view. Lets have a beer. mark I'm good with that. It's consistent with what I said in my first post. The problem is you are bring audio thinking into a power scenario. I would even contend that the audio guy would just call this a push pull amp on one phase. The other stereo channel would be the other phase. (hence "phasing" speakers) |
Estimating KWh electicity billing using clamp-on amp meter
On 08/01/2018 01:41 PM, wrote:
[snip] Exactly except you are simply looking at one phase, looking in 2 directions from an arbitrary point along the winding. Do you think the hands on your clock change direction at 12 and 6? After all, first they are going down, then they are going up. It's rotational movement. Direction is changing constantly. There's nothing special about 12 and 6. As to phases, I'd like to hear about the phase angles for that "3 phase" from a double-tapped transformer secondary. -- Mark Lloyd http://notstupid.us/ "The unspiritual man does not receive the gifts of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned." Paul, 1 Corinthians 2:14 |
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