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Estimating KWh electicity billing using clamp-on amp meter
On Mon, 30 May 2011 13:04:28 -0400, "Ed Pawlowski" wrote:
"Home Guy" wrote Our water meter is read by the same person at the same time. Since never a single month goes by without a reading, your theory of estimated billing caused by a missed reading should not apply. I've never heard of a power company that would give a crap about the water meter. Is this the same utility? Very unusual in my experience, but anything is possible. Our water and electricity (and garbage, and soon to be cable/Internet) are all from the same "company". The city. ;-) ...though the water is billed separately (electricity and garbage are billed together). |
Estimating KWh electicity billing using clamp-on amp meter
On Mon, 30 May 2011 10:03:25 -0400, Home Guy wrote:
dpb wrote: Again, does the bill actual say every month is a "real" reading or estimated or averaged/computer-generated one? That should be discernible as well. I will post more info on what a typical bill looks like, and whether or not I see the word "estimated" anywhere on it. I do know that the bill is broken down into about 4 or 5 different energy rates. IE - the first X kwh is billed at Y cents per kwh, and the next J kwh is billed at K cents per kwh, etc. Our residential bills are similarly structured, but they have fewer tiers (maybe just 2, or 3 at most). Let me throw this out as a new question: How are poly-phase (in this case, 3 phase) kwh measurements made? With a three-phase energy meter, of course, else you would have three meters. Is it just the sum of the individual phases, or is it the sum times some factor (ie square-root of 3) or some such? The simple sum of the power in the three phases. |
Estimating KWh electicity billing using clamp-on amp meter
On Mon, 30 May 2011 08:34:47 -0400, Home Guy wrote:
" wrote: Did you read the link? Yes, did you? Why should any utility put a demand meter on anyone pulling only 2000 kwh per month? They certainly didn't. Why do you insist they did? This electricity provider (National Grid) serves close to 4 million customers across 29,000 square miles of Massachesetts, New Hampshire, New York and Rhode Island. This is the link: http://www.nationalgridus.com/niagar...lec-demand.pdf And this is what it says: =========== National Grid installs a demand meter whenever a customer's energy consumption has exceeded 2000 kilo-watt hours (kWh) per month for four consecutive months. Once demand billing begins, it does not end until after the monthly energy consumption has been less than 2,000 kwh for 12 consecutive months. This requirement may not be avoided by temporarily terminating service. New or existing customers whose connected load indicates that the energy consumption will exceed 2,000 kwh per month will have a demand meter installed. The demand charge will be the hightest average kW measured in a 15 minute interval during the billing period, but not less than one kw and not less than the demand contracted for. ============= Now take your foot out of your mouth and explain why such an agressive policy is needed for a demand meter for such a paltry energy usage. You have all this time to fine one counterexample and none to INVESTIGATE YOUR OWN DAMNED BILL? What a complete moron! |
Estimating KWh electicity billing using clamp-on amp meter
On Mon, 30 May 2011 08:43:42 -0500, dpb wrote:
On 5/30/2011 7:34 AM, Home Guy wrote: ... Now take your foot out of your mouth and explain why such an agressive policy is needed for a demand meter for such a paltry energy usage. I did (or at least made a surmise) earlier... I would presume that it is owing to the intense regulation being imposed on utilities that almost completely hamstrings them from being able to expand generation (and of also transmission) capacities or even to keep existing generation online. In such a circumstance, anything they can do to provide incentives to users to level peak demand is a plus. Or, the other possibility is that it is a condition placed on them by the State regulators. Certainly it will have been approved by same. Whey don't they do peak and off-peak billing? That seems to make more sense and would be easier for the customers to adjust their consumption around, |
Estimating KWh electicity billing using clamp-on amp meter
On Mon, 30 May 2011 02:34:45 -0700 (PDT), The Ghost in The Machine
wrote: On May 28, 5:38*pm, " wrote: On Sat, 28 May 2011 15:21:47 -0500, Jim Yanik wrote: "RBM" wrote : "Mark" wrote in message ... On May 27, 8:47 pm, Home Guy wrote: RBM used improper usenet message composition style by full-quoting: 3) There are (on average) 30.4 days in a month, and therefore 730 hours in a month. If I take the above wattage calculation (120 x total_current) and multiply it by 730, then divide by 1000, I should get a quantity energy measurement (KWh) that should match (or approximate) my bill from the local utility - assuming that the load in use at the time of the readings are representative of daily or continuous use. If this method of obtaining a representative monthly KWh measurement is not correct (or needs more refinement) then please state what, why or how. **You're not going to be the least bit accurate trying to calculate that way. I want to establish several use-case situations, primarily a "worst-case" KWh monthly usage by assuming that all the devices that are normally on during a week-day 9-am to 5-pm work day and turned off at all other times are instead left on continuously 24/7. I can also get current readings for other use-case situations (evenings and week-ends) that should give me a more closer-to-reality current reading and factor in their time-of use over the course of a month. This is a small office - not a home. There are fewer variable involved. There is no reason that you shouldn't be able to look at the electric meter. The meter is in a locked cabinet. The only time I get to see it is when the meter-reader guy comes around once a month to read it. I suspect the meter is in a locked cabinet to prevent tampering / bypass (the meter is inside the utility / furnace room of the building and is not accessible from the outside). And besides, having the ability to lay my eyes on the meter won't tell me anything about the accuracy of the meter, or the real-time current consumption. All I want to know is - should the current readings from a clamp-on meter (when extrapolated across the 730 hours of a typical month) jive with the accumulated KWh reading as measured by a typical billing meter? Do I have to do any "special" math to the wattage I calculate with the meter to arrive at what the billing meter is measuring? yes you are correct you can get a rough reading this way.. you need to measure and sum only the 3 black cables, do not include the white striped cable in the sum. Add up the 3 currents and multiply by 120 and this is your VAs and the actual Watts will be equal to or less then the VAs. Multiply by hours and you have Watt Hours. Divide by 1000 and you have kWh which is how you are billed. Mark This is a commercial service and metering equipment. How is he going to guestimate demand? since the white return wire returns the current from all 3 phases,wouldn't that give you the sum of all the currents? Only the *difference* of the three phases is returned in the neutral. *With a balanced load there will be zero current in the neutral. YOU ARE ALL SO FULL OF HOOEY.....THE ABOVE STATEMENT IS INCORRECT. ON SAID NEUTRAL THERE WILL BE A POTENTIAL TO GROUND EQUAL TO THE LOAD.... KRW YOU ARE ONE DUMBASS ENDANGERING MOTHER****ER. You're stupid even for a sparky wannabe (a.k.a. wire-puller), Queerjano. I am exactly right. Only the imbalance in the load is returned in the neutral. I HAVE COME TO TNE CONCLUSION THAT THOUGH SOME OF YOU ARE VERSED AND EDUCATED YOUR OBSERVATIONS AND KNOWLEDGE IS WANDERING...RENDERING THESE GROUPS USELESS, MISGUIDING AND NOT WORTH THE EFFORT PUT INTO THEM... You *are* useless, Queerjano. Actually, you have a negative value as a human. Stop it now! PATECUM Still eating cum, Pattycakes? TGITM Penicillin will take care of that. |
Estimating KWh electicity billing using clamp-on amp meter
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Estimating KWh electicity billing using clamp-on amp meter
wrote in message ... On Mon, 30 May 2011 13:04:28 -0400, "Ed Pawlowski" wrote: "Home Guy" wrote Our water meter is read by the same person at the same time. Since never a single month goes by without a reading, your theory of estimated billing caused by a missed reading should not apply. I've never heard of a power company that would give a crap about the water meter. Is this the same utility? Very unusual in my experience, but anything is possible. Our water and electricity (and garbage, and soon to be cable/Internet) are all from the same "company". The city. ;-) ...though the water is billed separately (electricity and garbage are billed together). Aren't you in the MA area? That seems to be a monopoly of the monopolies. Is the city getting a cut? |
Estimating KWh electicity billing using clamp-on amp meter
On Mon, 30 May 2011 14:15:58 -0500, dpb wrote:
On 5/30/2011 1:34 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote: ... Whey don't they do peak and off-peak billing? That seems to make more sense and would be easier for the customers to adjust their consumption around, For residential, sure...this is commercial meter, though, not residential even though it is light commercial where it wouldn't make any significant difference in the (apparent) current use as given by OP. I was referring to the OP's comment about the 2000kWh limit before the utility uses demand billing, even on residential customers. OTOH, for "real" industrial large loads which is really the target, they generally use control algorithms to try to maintain as near level consumption as possible as well as maximize power factor. They do this by phased starting/stopping schedules for the really large gear, etc., etc., etc., as much as is feasible within other operational constraints... Understood. I was referring only to small, residential, customers. One paper mill for which I did consulting had a very sophisticated startup sequence that relied on precise timing of motor-starting along the 1 mile length of the line. It took something otoo 45 minutes from the initial button press before the last set of rollers began to turn. Another that used similar logic but that I never actually worked on was the rolling mill making Al can stock at the Alcoa facility in Alcoa, TN. It was a tower facility that had large feed rolls at one end and can stock collected on rollers at the other with about a half-mile of material going up and down in between in successive stages of the rolling process. I always thought it kinda kewl to watch the linear velocity increase from start to end--about 7-10X that at the entrance. Electric arc furnaces at the Alcoa facility and other metal fab locations are another set of very large loads where anything to level load is a benefit financially and operationally as well. You locate those *next* to power generation. ;-) It's the largest cost. |
Estimating KWh electicity billing using clamp-on amp meter
On Mon, 30 May 2011 15:26:54 -0400, "Ed Pawlowski" wrote:
wrote in message .. . On Mon, 30 May 2011 13:04:28 -0400, "Ed Pawlowski" wrote: "Home Guy" wrote Our water meter is read by the same person at the same time. Since never a single month goes by without a reading, your theory of estimated billing caused by a missed reading should not apply. I've never heard of a power company that would give a crap about the water meter. Is this the same utility? Very unusual in my experience, but anything is possible. Our water and electricity (and garbage, and soon to be cable/Internet) are all from the same "company". The city. ;-) ...though the water is billed separately (electricity and garbage are billed together). Aren't you in the MA area? Me? Good God, man. I'm not nuts! I moved out of New England (Vermont), for good, four years ago. We live in Alabama, 100mi down the road from Dufas. ;-) That seems to be a monopoly of the monopolies. Is the city getting a cut? I don't think so. Everything (but water) is pretty cheap. Electricity is $.08/kWh and garbage is $15/month, both half what they're paying in Vermont. Property taxes are a quarter. The downside is that there are a significant number of power outages. None long, just enough to be annoying. ...and no cable TV, yet (Charter did just come by, but I'm holding out for the city's "fiber to the house"). |
Estimating KWh electicity billing using clamp-on amp meter
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Estimating KWh electicity billing using clamp-on amp meter
On Mon, 30 May 2011 14:51:36 -0500, dpb wrote:
On 5/30/2011 2:27 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote: ... Understood. I was referring only to small, residential, customers. ... Oh, sorry, missed that limited context intent. No, I don't see it being particularly significant for residential customers for the most part other than, perhaps, the mcmansion-type w/ spa, pool and pool heaters, maybe the heated driveway thingie, etc., etc., etc., ... For the casual homeowner w/ a fridge and range and water heater, it's unlikely would make much difference. But, it would be simple enough to deal w/ things like the water heater and other loads not sharing "on" time. I would think it more important to get those things off "peak" times, where commercial users are the big users. I guess it depends on where the choke points are in the system. Electric arc furnaces at the Alcoa facility and other metal fab locations are another set of very large loads where anything to level load is a benefit financially and operationally as well. You locate those *next* to power generation. ;-) It's the largest cost. Alcoa is where it is in large part owing to TVA in the WW II era as is Oak Ridge (gas diffusion plants and earlier magnetic separation) for the Manhattan Project. Rural at the time w/ plenty of water for power. Kingston Fossil was built subsequently for the expansion of the facilities during the '50s arms race. While relatively close, the Al plant isn't right next door to generation facilities but the smelter is closer. It's kinda spooky driving along I40 when one of the loaded flatbeds passes at about 80-85 mph w/ that vat of hot Al on the way to the casting mill. There have been a couple of accidents where they've spilled one; it tends to leave crispy things all around... :( I imagine it would. |
Estimating KWh electicity billing using clamp-on amp meter
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Estimating KWh electicity billing using clamp-on amp meter
On May 30, 5:51*am, "Robert Green" wrote:
That's true, but it will cost a bunch of money. *The Kil-O-Watt is dirt cheap, it's an essential tool that EVERYONE who cares about the co$t of electricity should have, AND it doubles-checks the company meter using a wholly different way of computing usage than the company uses and even the sub-meter at emon uses. The Kill-O-Watt meter can only measure one load at a time... It might take him weeks or months to measure all the devices using power in his office considering he has to also keep doing his actual job at the same time... An emon demon will measure all of the power flowing through an entire 3-phase panel... If their meter is bad or wired to a parasitic load, remotely monitoring a sub-meter won't help a bit. *It seems everyone here is making a lot of assumptions based on facts not entered into evidence. *If he does an inventory with the KOW and the aggregate demand of each electrical device doesn't come within a ballpark figure of the company billing, THEN he's got some work to do. *The KOW won't catch problems like running the A/C and the heat at the same time (I had that experience at one job site where the server room was independently cooled at the same time it was centrally heated and the power bills skyrocketed). That is assuming facts not in evidence... The OP has clearly stated that there is only one electrical meter locked up inside a cabinet that no one in the building has access to, only the meter reader can open it... The OP also has stated that whatever office he works in is the only occupant in the building... OP also described that the "main wires" split off into several different panels... The remote monitor might not catch an idiot neighbor who has vampire tapped the OP's circuits. *How do you catch a 20A circuit "accidentally" going to the space next door with a sub-meter any better than you can with the main meter? *How can a sub-meter or remote monitor solution catch an electric resistance heater in someone else's space that he's paying for? *That's a hell of a lot more common than people might think in multiple occupant dwellings. *The original occupants know they have some cross-linked wiring but deal with it in their lease or informally. *When they move out, the institutional memory of how that cross-linking worked goes with them. You install an emon demon... You then operate each circuit individually to ascertain exactly what it is that the circuit is powering... Many places that see weird energy bills often have poorly labeled circuit breaker panels and tons of "mystery switches" on the wall which no one working there knows what they control... For there to be any vampire loads would require other tenants in the building -- the OP has not said anything about the existence of such tenants (other than to say the building he works in belongs to his employer)... The point is that someone could be doing something nasty like that to the OP. * The cabinet might be locked by a tampered looking to keep his tampering away from prying eyes. *(-: Bull... A tamperer would not have access to a utility company lock which was obviously supplied by the power company to secure the main metering enclosure cabinet... In any event, I honestly believe that for the OP's peace of mind, as well as getting some real data points about consumption independent of the meter, spending $25 is a no-brainer. *Doing an electrical inventory seems to be a better idea than hiring an electrician to install something he might not ever need if he determines the bill is accurate. *I'm in favor of everyone doing a Kil-O-Watt type inventory of their home because they would be surprised to find what some of the high-tech toys take in electricity just to keep the IR remote control or some other circuitry alive. Yup, the Kill-O-Watt can not measure hardwired loads... Only plugged in appliances... I once saw an office tenant that tried to save money by removing half the lamps from 4 lamp fluorescent fixtures and not re- lamping burnt out fixtures in a timely manner... Not re-lamping fluorescent fixtures on a predetermined schedule based on the designed life of the lamps being used is an error -- you will end up only getting 50% of the light output for the same consumption of power... FWIW, what do you think the cost of an emon d-mon would be for a business? I couldn't find any prices on their site which makes me nervous. *It's a technique that typically mean "high priced." *I've got a similar system built around a home automation controller that cost about $250 total. Assuming this system needs the same kind of electronics and add another $250 for the install and you're talking $500! *I suspect our solutions differ in cost by at least a factor of 20. *That's a lot in a cost-centric world. An emon demon gets wired up to a circuit breaker in the panel it is monitoring in order to sense the precise voltage on each phase... There are three sensor loops which clamp on the feeder conductors for each phase of the panel... No electronics on the basic emon demon model, its all in the little gray box... The cost depends on what type of meter you want, the basic one just displays its reading on its face panel but there are other more advanced meters that can interface with a telephone for remote readings or integrate into a BAS system to track and graph power usage... I remember the cost being $400 for a basic meter and upwards of $1,200 for an advanced one with all the options but it also depends on the amperage of the panel/circuit/equipment you want to monitor... If HomeGuy was an SOB, he could even send the meter back because saying "It loses its kWh readings if the unit is unplugged or the power blinks." That's the cheap model's Achilles' heel. *The more expensive units have a battery and many other features. **IF* he was a skunk and sent it back after using it, that would put the cost at less than $10. *But HomeGuy doesn't sound like a skunk, just a perplexed business owner trying to control his costs. *He's not an electro-techie yet he's somehow ****ed off a whole lot of electro-techies who seem to believe he should be "getting it" by now. This thread in particular was really a lot less collegiate than it should have been. *People "get it" when they "get it" and insulting them doesn't ever help them "get it" faster, it usually just degenerates the thread. *It has to make you wonder if that's not the goal: *Not to be helpful, but to deliberately *try* to start an on-line brawl. *I guess it's spring and the testosterone's running higher than the mighty Mississippi. Home Guy, I'll probably take a beating myself for saying this (fish got to swim, scolds have to scold) but I'm sorry you took such a pounding. *It's uncalled for, especially over an apolitical issue like this. *If you really want to take a beating, try starting this thread. *"I want to design a system to limit my kid's PC and phone use." *The scolds will be clawing each other bloody trying to explain that you wouldn't need such a system if you were a better parent. *They will probably even insult your kids whom they've never met nor know anything about. *That's Usenet! It always takes two to tango but abusing someone because they don't understand something in a group that's allegedly here to share information seems a bit harsh. *It never makes anyone understand any better, it just raises their hackles. *Can anyone here ever remember a *competent* teacher dealing with a student that way? *Of course not. *So why is it OK here to question someone's intelligence repeatedly on what is a complex techno-geographical question whose true parameters are probably still not known to a majority of posters and are peculiar to the OP's location? Everyone went to DefCon 4 in a microsecond. *It usually takes this sort of nth level response to get as personal. *Can't everyone pull in their horns a little? Who hasn't gotten a utility bill and thought "Gee, that seems a bit high?" The Kil-o-Watt is the cheapest, safest way to get a roadmap of your power consumption and to find out what watthogs need to be tamed. *It's a must unless you like paying money to the electric company that could have stayed in your pocket. -- Bobby G. |
Estimating KWh electicity billing using clamp-on amp meter
In article ,
Ed Pawlowski wrote: "Home Guy" wrote Our water meter is read by the same person at the same time. [ ... ] I've never heard of a power company that would give a crap about the water meter. Is this the same utility? Very unusual in my experience, but anything is possible. Sometimes the "power company" does other things. In my case, they're also the water and gas companies, and handle billing for trash pickup and sewage (which is the same units as water, just a higher rate). Gary |
Estimating KWh electicity billing using clamp-on amp meter
On 5/30/2011 8:57 AM, Home Guy wrote:
.... Our water meter is read by the same person at the same time. .... Maybe he's mixing readings between meters... :) -- |
Estimating KWh electicity billing using clamp-on amp meter
On 5/30/2011 9:03 AM, Home Guy wrote:
.... How are poly-phase (in this case, 3 phase) kwh measurements made? Is it just the sum of the individual phases, ... Basically, yes. In theory it could be like three single-phase meters each connected across a phase and neutral. But, it ain't quite so easy as generally there isn't access to the N and it turns out one can show that the equivalent of connecting three to a common point ends up that one of the three can be eliminated leaving that one only needs two even for unbalanced loads. I have vague recollections of this in power circuits 101, but that's been nearly 50 years now... :) -- |
Estimating KWh electicity billing using clamp-on amp meter
On May 30, 4:21*pm, "
wrote: On Mon, 30 May 2011 14:51:36 -0500, dpb wrote: On 5/30/2011 2:27 PM, wrote: ... Understood. *I was referring only to small, residential, customers. ... Oh, sorry, missed that limited context intent. No, I don't see it being particularly significant for residential customers for the most part other than, perhaps, the mcmansion-type w/ spa, pool and pool heaters, maybe the heated driveway thingie, etc., etc., etc., ... *For the casual homeowner w/ a fridge and range and water heater, it's unlikely would make much difference. *But, it would be simple enough to deal w/ things like the water heater and other loads not sharing "on" time. I would think it more important to get those things off "peak" times, where commercial users are the big users. *I guess it depends on where the choke points are in the system. Electric arc furnaces at the Alcoa facility and other metal fab locations are another set of very large loads where anything to level load is a benefit financially and operationally as well. You locate those *next* to power generation. ;-) *It's the largest cost. Alcoa is where it is in large part owing to TVA in the WW II era as is Oak Ridge (gas diffusion plants and earlier magnetic separation) for the Manhattan Project. *Rural at the time w/ plenty of water for power. Kingston Fossil was built subsequently for the expansion of the facilities during the '50s arms race. While relatively close, the Al plant isn't right next door to generation facilities but the smelter is closer. *It's kinda spooky driving along I40 when one of the loaded flatbeds passes at about 80-85 mph w/ that vat of hot Al on the way to the casting mill. *There have been a couple of accidents where they've spilled one; it tends to leave crispy things all around... :( I imagine it would. * SHUT UP FOOL...THERE ARE PIECES OF YOUR OTHER TROLLS ASS ALL OVER THE PLACE. YOU BLOODY IDIOT! PAT ECUM TGITM |
Estimating KWh electicity billing using clamp-on amp meter
On May 30, 2:38*pm, "
wrote: On Mon, 30 May 2011 02:34:45 -0700 (PDT), The Ghost in The Machine wrote: On May 28, 5:38*pm, " wrote: On Sat, 28 May 2011 15:21:47 -0500, Jim Yanik wrote: "RBM" wrote : "Mark" wrote in message ... On May 27, 8:47 pm, Home Guy wrote: RBM used improper usenet message composition style by full-quoting: 3) There are (on average) 30.4 days in a month, and therefore 730 hours in a month. If I take the above wattage calculation (120 x total_current) and multiply it by 730, then divide by 1000, I should get a quantity energy measurement (KWh) that should match (or approximate) my bill from the local utility - assuming that the load in use at the time of the readings are representative of daily or continuous use. If this method of obtaining a representative monthly KWh measurement is not correct (or needs more refinement) then please state what, why or how. **You're not going to be the least bit accurate trying to calculate that way. I want to establish several use-case situations, primarily a "worst-case" KWh monthly usage by assuming that all the devices that are normally on during a week-day 9-am to 5-pm work day and turned off at all other times are instead left on continuously 24/7. I can also get current readings for other use-case situations (evenings and week-ends) that should give me a more closer-to-reality current reading and factor in their time-of use over the course of a month.. This is a small office - not a home. There are fewer variable involved. There is no reason that you shouldn't be able to look at the electric meter. The meter is in a locked cabinet. The only time I get to see it is when the meter-reader guy comes around once a month to read it. I suspect the meter is in a locked cabinet to prevent tampering / bypass (the meter is inside the utility / furnace room of the building and is not accessible from the outside). And besides, having the ability to lay my eyes on the meter won't tell me anything about the accuracy of the meter, or the real-time current consumption. All I want to know is - should the current readings from a clamp-on meter (when extrapolated across the 730 hours of a typical month) jive with the accumulated KWh reading as measured by a typical billing meter? Do I have to do any "special" math to the wattage I calculate with the meter to arrive at what the billing meter is measuring? yes you are correct you can get a rough reading this way.. you need to measure and sum only the 3 black cables, do not include the white striped cable in the sum. Add up the 3 currents and multiply by 120 and this is your VAs and the actual Watts will be equal to or less then the VAs. Multiply by hours and you have Watt Hours. Divide by 1000 and you have kWh which is how you are billed. Mark This is a commercial service and metering equipment. How is he going to guestimate demand? since the white return wire returns the current from all 3 phases,wouldn't that give you the sum of all the currents? Only the *difference* of the three phases is returned in the neutral. *With a balanced load there will be zero current in the neutral. YOU ARE ALL SO FULL OF HOOEY.....THE ABOVE STATEMENT IS INCORRECT. ON SAID NEUTRAL THERE WILL BE A POTENTIAL TO GROUND EQUAL TO THE LOAD.... KRW YOU ARE ONE DUMBASS ENDANGERING MOTHER****ER. You're stupid even for a sparky wannabe (a.k.a. wire-puller), Queerjano. *I am exactly right. *Only the imbalance in the load is returned in the neutral. * I HAVE COME TO TNE CONCLUSION THAT THOUGH SOME OF YOU ARE VERSED AND EDUCATED YOUR OBSERVATIONS AND KNOWLEDGE IS WANDERING...RENDERING THESE GROUPS USELESS, *MISGUIDING AND NOT WORTH THE EFFORT PUT INTO THEM... You *are* useless, Queerjano. *Actually, you have a negative value as a human. Stop it now! PATECUM Still eating cum, Pattycakes? TGITM Penicillin will take care of that. YOU REALLY THINK I AM SOMEONE ELSE, YOU FOOL. HE WAS THE SMART ON AND LEFT..BUT YOUR WRETCHED RICKETTY SOUL IS MINE FOOL. NEXT STOP..HELL! PATECUM |
Estimating KWh electicity billing using clamp-on amp meter
On May 30, 2:38*pm, "
wrote: On Mon, 30 May 2011 02:34:45 -0700 (PDT), The Ghost in The Machine wrote: On May 28, 5:38*pm, " wrote: On Sat, 28 May 2011 15:21:47 -0500, Jim Yanik wrote: "RBM" wrote : "Mark" wrote in message ... On May 27, 8:47 pm, Home Guy wrote: RBM used improper usenet message composition style by full-quoting: 3) There are (on average) 30.4 days in a month, and therefore 730 hours in a month. If I take the above wattage calculation (120 x total_current) and multiply it by 730, then divide by 1000, I should get a quantity energy measurement (KWh) that should match (or approximate) my bill from the local utility - assuming that the load in use at the time of the readings are representative of daily or continuous use. If this method of obtaining a representative monthly KWh measurement is not correct (or needs more refinement) then please state what, why or how. **You're not going to be the least bit accurate trying to calculate that way. I want to establish several use-case situations, primarily a "worst-case" KWh monthly usage by assuming that all the devices that are normally on during a week-day 9-am to 5-pm work day and turned off at all other times are instead left on continuously 24/7. I can also get current readings for other use-case situations (evenings and week-ends) that should give me a more closer-to-reality current reading and factor in their time-of use over the course of a month.. This is a small office - not a home. There are fewer variable involved. There is no reason that you shouldn't be able to look at the electric meter. The meter is in a locked cabinet. The only time I get to see it is when the meter-reader guy comes around once a month to read it. I suspect the meter is in a locked cabinet to prevent tampering / bypass (the meter is inside the utility / furnace room of the building and is not accessible from the outside). And besides, having the ability to lay my eyes on the meter won't tell me anything about the accuracy of the meter, or the real-time current consumption. All I want to know is - should the current readings from a clamp-on meter (when extrapolated across the 730 hours of a typical month) jive with the accumulated KWh reading as measured by a typical billing meter? Do I have to do any "special" math to the wattage I calculate with the meter to arrive at what the billing meter is measuring? yes you are correct you can get a rough reading this way.. you need to measure and sum only the 3 black cables, do not include the white striped cable in the sum. Add up the 3 currents and multiply by 120 and this is your VAs and the actual Watts will be equal to or less then the VAs. Multiply by hours and you have Watt Hours. Divide by 1000 and you have kWh which is how you are billed. Mark This is a commercial service and metering equipment. How is he going to guestimate demand? since the white return wire returns the current from all 3 phases,wouldn't that give you the sum of all the currents? Only the *difference* of the three phases is returned in the neutral. *With a balanced load there will be zero current in the neutral. YOU ARE ALL SO FULL OF HOOEY.....THE ABOVE STATEMENT IS INCORRECT. ON SAID NEUTRAL THERE WILL BE A POTENTIAL TO GROUND EQUAL TO THE LOAD.... KRW YOU ARE ONE DUMBASS ENDANGERING MOTHER****ER. You're stupid even for a sparky wannabe (a.k.a. wire-puller), Queerjano. *I am exactly right. *Only the imbalance in the load is returned in the neutral. * I HAVE COME TO TNE CONCLUSION THAT THOUGH SOME OF YOU ARE VERSED AND EDUCATED YOUR OBSERVATIONS AND KNOWLEDGE IS WANDERING...RENDERING THESE GROUPS USELESS, *MISGUIDING AND NOT WORTH THE EFFORT PUT INTO THEM... You *are* useless, Queerjano. *Actually, you have a negative value as a human. Stop it now! PATECUM Still eating cum, Pattycakes? TGITM Penicillin will take care of that. DONT LISTEN TO THIS FOOLISH TROLLS ADVICE.....HE IS DEAD WRONG. HI THINKS NAMING MY BENEFACTOR WHENEVER HE GETS CALLED ON AN ERROR, MAKES HIM RIGHT. HE IS A PATHETIC TERRORIST WANNABE...BUT HE IS DO STUPID AND SO WRONG THAT NOT EVEN THE JIHADIST TERRORIST WILL HIRE HIM... TAKE A HIKE KRACKRW ! PATECUM TGITM |
Estimating KWh electicity billing using clamp-on amp meter
On Mon, 30 May 2011 18:58:12 -0500, dpb wrote:
On 5/30/2011 9:03 AM, Home Guy wrote: ... How are poly-phase (in this case, 3 phase) kwh measurements made? Is it just the sum of the individual phases, ... Basically, yes. In theory it could be like three single-phase meters each connected across a phase and neutral. But, it ain't quite so easy as generally there isn't access to the N and it turns out one can show that the equivalent of connecting three to a common point ends up that one of the three can be eliminated leaving that one only needs two even for unbalanced loads. I have vague recollections of this in power circuits 101, but that's been nearly 50 years now... :) It's gotta be that way, or power (energy) out power (energy) in. The universe gets ****ed-off when that happens. |
Estimating KWh electicity billing using clamp-on amp meter
On Mon, 30 May 2011 17:52:55 -0700 (PDT), The Ghost in The Machine
wrote: On May 30, 2:38*pm, " wrote: On Mon, 30 May 2011 02:34:45 -0700 (PDT), The Ghost in The Machine wrote: On May 28, 5:38*pm, " wrote: On Sat, 28 May 2011 15:21:47 -0500, Jim Yanik wrote: "RBM" wrote : "Mark" wrote in message ... On May 27, 8:47 pm, Home Guy wrote: RBM used improper usenet message composition style by full-quoting: 3) There are (on average) 30.4 days in a month, and therefore 730 hours in a month. If I take the above wattage calculation (120 x total_current) and multiply it by 730, then divide by 1000, I should get a quantity energy measurement (KWh) that should match (or approximate) my bill from the local utility - assuming that the load in use at the time of the readings are representative of daily or continuous use. If this method of obtaining a representative monthly KWh measurement is not correct (or needs more refinement) then please state what, why or how. **You're not going to be the least bit accurate trying to calculate that way. I want to establish several use-case situations, primarily a "worst-case" KWh monthly usage by assuming that all the devices that are normally on during a week-day 9-am to 5-pm work day and turned off at all other times are instead left on continuously 24/7. I can also get current readings for other use-case situations (evenings and week-ends) that should give me a more closer-to-reality current reading and factor in their time-of use over the course of a month. This is a small office - not a home. There are fewer variable involved. There is no reason that you shouldn't be able to look at the electric meter. The meter is in a locked cabinet. The only time I get to see it is when the meter-reader guy comes around once a month to read it. I suspect the meter is in a locked cabinet to prevent tampering / bypass (the meter is inside the utility / furnace room of the building and is not accessible from the outside). And besides, having the ability to lay my eyes on the meter won't tell me anything about the accuracy of the meter, or the real-time current consumption. All I want to know is - should the current readings from a clamp-on meter (when extrapolated across the 730 hours of a typical month) jive with the accumulated KWh reading as measured by a typical billing meter? Do I have to do any "special" math to the wattage I calculate with the meter to arrive at what the billing meter is measuring? yes you are correct you can get a rough reading this way.. you need to measure and sum only the 3 black cables, do not include the white striped cable in the sum. Add up the 3 currents and multiply by 120 and this is your VAs and the actual Watts will be equal to or less then the VAs. Multiply by hours and you have Watt Hours. Divide by 1000 and you have kWh which is how you are billed. Mark This is a commercial service and metering equipment. How is he going to guestimate demand? since the white return wire returns the current from all 3 phases,wouldn't that give you the sum of all the currents? Only the *difference* of the three phases is returned in the neutral. *With a balanced load there will be zero current in the neutral. YOU ARE ALL SO FULL OF HOOEY.....THE ABOVE STATEMENT IS INCORRECT. ON SAID NEUTRAL THERE WILL BE A POTENTIAL TO GROUND EQUAL TO THE LOAD.... KRW YOU ARE ONE DUMBASS ENDANGERING MOTHER****ER. You're stupid even for a sparky wannabe (a.k.a. wire-puller), Queerjano. *I am exactly right. *Only the imbalance in the load is returned in the neutral. * I HAVE COME TO TNE CONCLUSION THAT THOUGH SOME OF YOU ARE VERSED AND EDUCATED YOUR OBSERVATIONS AND KNOWLEDGE IS WANDERING...RENDERING THESE GROUPS USELESS, *MISGUIDING AND NOT WORTH THE EFFORT PUT INTO THEM... You *are* useless, Queerjano. *Actually, you have a negative value as a human. Stop it now! PATECUM Still eating cum, Pattycakes? TGITM Penicillin will take care of that. YOU REALLY THINK I AM SOMEONE ELSE No, I *know* you're Roy Queerjano. YOU FOOL. Smart enough to know you don't know your ass from your mouth. Understood that they are in constant close proximity. HE WAS THE SMART ON AND LEFT..BUT YOUR WRETCHED RICKETTY SOUL IS MINE FOOL. The smart on? No, Queerjano, you could never be accused of that. NEXT STOP..HELL! Have a nice trip. PATECUM Still eating that stuff? Yuck! |
Estimating KWh electicity billing using clamp-on amp meter
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Estimating KWh electicity billing using clamp-on amp meter
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Estimating KWh electicity billing using clamp-on amp meter
On 5/30/2011 6:58 PM, dpb wrote:
On 5/30/2011 9:03 AM, Home Guy wrote: ... How are poly-phase (in this case, 3 phase) kwh measurements made? Is it just the sum of the individual phases, ... Basically, yes. In theory it could be like three single-phase meters each connected across a phase and neutral. But, it ain't quite so easy as generally there isn't access to the N and it turns out one can show that the equivalent of connecting three to a common point ends up that one of the three can be eliminated leaving that one only needs two even for unbalanced loads. I have vague recollections of this in power circuits 101, but that's been nearly 50 years now... :) As a ghost of 101 - I think you want Blondel's theorem. Probably the only time it will appear in this newsgroup. -- bud-- |
Estimating KWh electicity billing using clamp-on amp meter
On Mon, 30 May 2011 20:34:10 -0500, bud-- wrote:
On 5/30/2011 1:34 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote: On Mon, 30 May 2011 08:43:42 -0500, wrote: On 5/30/2011 7:34 AM, Home Guy wrote: ... Now take your foot out of your mouth and explain why such an agressive policy is needed for a demand meter for such a paltry energy usage. I did (or at least made a surmise) earlier... I would presume that it is owing to the intense regulation being imposed on utilities that almost completely hamstrings them from being able to expand generation (and of also transmission) capacities or even to keep existing generation online. In such a circumstance, anything they can do to provide incentives to users to level peak demand is a plus. Or, the other possibility is that it is a condition placed on them by the State regulators. Certainly it will have been approved by same. Whey don't they do peak and off-peak billing? That seems to make more sense and would be easier for the customers to adjust their consumption around, Peak and off-peak isn't all that easy with the old meters, but I thought that was one of the capabilities of the new "smart" meters. Also 'talking' to the occupant. Demand metering requires a demand meter, too. Peak/off-peak metering has been done for decades without "smart meters", though usually with two meters. FWIG, almost all old-style mechanical meters will be gone in a short time. Demand is a common method for utilities to level the peaks for reasons that have been well covered. Around here the demand shows up as a penalty charge, not a kWh rate multiplier. That doesn't make any sense. For industrial metering "reactive power" (kVARh) metering is also pretty common - again a penalty charge. That makes even less sense. The penalties are high enough to provide a real incentive. Some installations with backup power run the backup to shave peaks. Are you mixing VARS and demand? If I had the questions Home Guy did I would talk to the utility. Leave the door unlocked? Why repeated numbers? Why wide variation? Estimates? He says no, but... With a 400A service the current metering will use current transformers. There is likely a CT cabinet with a utility seal. Unless the disconnect is ahead of the CT cabinet I don't see a reason why the door can't be left unlocked. I don't see why it can't be unlocked anyway - the occupant has to have access to the disconnect. |
Estimating KWh electicity billing using clamp-on amp meter
"Evan" wrote in message
... On May 30, 5:51 am, "Robert Green" wrote: That's true, but it will cost a bunch of money. The Kil-O-Watt is dirt cheap, it's an essential tool that EVERYONE who cares about the co$t of electricity should have, AND it doubles-checks the company meter using a wholly different way of computing usage than the company uses and even the sub-meter at emon uses. The Kill-O-Watt meter can only measure one load at a time... It might take him weeks or months to measure all the devices using power in his office considering he has to also keep doing his actual job at the same time... An emon demon will measure all of the power flowing through an entire 3-phase panel... Including any parasitic loads miswired into the OP's panel. Measuring the power consumed at the same point that the company's meter means that any load that's not supposed to be on the OP's meter will still be passing through that point. I've used the Kil-o-Watt extensively (I actually have four of them that I got for $12 each) to monitor large loads (the refrigerator, window A/Cs and spave heaters) and to lend out to friends. Inventorying all the devices in a shop isn't that hard and better still, with a baseline reading on record it can be useful for maintenance reasons. I noticed my 30 year old Westinghouse fridge was not only consuming tremendous amounts of juice, it was drawing more juice every month. That lead me to conclude there was a freon leak or a compressor issue, and I bought a new one that uses about 1/3 the power of the old box. I have a database of all my electrical units (primarily because of the X-10 control system I use) and it's just not that hard of a task to measure the KWh's used of every device. I do a yearly inventory, anyway, so it's part of the process and every year *something* slips through. With X-10, every new electrical device must be vetted to insure it doesn't interfere with the control signal. Measuring the actual wattage of the unit is just one more test. Most importantly, the KOW metering method will NOT include anything like a 20A wire from the premises next door coming into his fuse panel and him being charged for the two 1000W space heaters he's running. I also use the KOW to test items during inventory to catch those that have unreasonable standby currents. That way I can, if their design permits, plug them into a powerstrip where I can shut them off unless they are in use. The billions (hyperbole alert) of chargers I have are all wired into power strips that are controlled by 24 hour timers. None of them will allow serious overcharging and the unused chargers can stay plugged in without burning electricity just being plugged in. If their meter is bad or wired to a parasitic load, remotely monitoring a sub-meter won't help a bit. It seems everyone here is making a lot of assumptions based on facts not entered into evidence. If he does an inventory with the KOW and the aggregate demand of each electrical device doesn't come within a ballpark figure of the company billing, THEN he's got some work to do. The KOW won't catch problems like running the A/C and the heat at the same time (I had that experience at one job site where the server room was independently cooled at the same time it was centrally heated and the power bills skyrocketed). That is assuming facts not in evidence... We're still in the fact-finding phase which means we are looking at everything that could possibly cause the OP's problem. In other words, we're not at the trial phase, but at the discovery phase, deciding what facts can and should be "introduced into evidence." I've found that on Usenet it's very important for the OP to state and restate the situation because a) he's the only observer, b) people have already forgotten what the OP wrote yesterday and c) people often respond not just to facts not in evidence, but facts not possible in the known universe. (-: The OP has clearly stated that there is only one electrical meter locked up inside a cabinet that no one in the building has access to, only the meter reader can open it... How does/did that prevent anyone who was a previous tenant or even the original builder from running a wire from the OP's circuit panel to an area outside his control? Does being locked up now presume it has always been locked up that way? Everyone here has determined the OP is not an electrical expert - that makes it unlikely that he would be able to discover a well-executed vampire tap. As you might imagine, thieves often take steps to conceal their larcenous acts. But I don't think we've got a miswire, a tap, or even an external outlet he's unaware of being used by others. This is mostly likely an issue with the power company's billing, and it may only be a problem in the sense that the OP doesn't understand what they are billing him for. My bill is incomprehensible, littered with tranmission fees, generation fees, offsets, refunds, taxes, etc. and lines that read (satire alert): 832KWh * .043443 some f\/cking fee 123KWh excess consumption fee $10 + 123 * .002134 955KWh * .012046 some other f\/cking fee, etc. 955KWh * .034563 some other f\/cking fee seasonal adjustment, etc. 955KWh * .024345 some other f\/cking fee Federal energy surtax No wonder no one trusts them. The OP also has stated that whatever office he works in is the only occupant in the building... OP also described that the "main wires" split off into several different panels... Again, either he IS an expert and knows how to account for every wire in the panel that he apparently can't even get to or he IS NOT an expert. It seems by his own admission he's not, which is why he's asking us to clear some things up for him. Taking into account the experiences of others (the mall example and the experiences I related) it's not at all unusual for a property to be divided up or partitioned off without proper regard to sub-metering. But I agree it's not very likely. We're just touching all the bases. The remote monitor might not catch an idiot neighbor who has vampire tapped the OP's circuits. How do you catch a 20A circuit "accidentally" going to the space next door with a sub-meter any better than you can with the main meter? How can a sub-meter or remote monitor solution catch an electric resistance heater in someone else's space that he's paying for? That's a hell of a lot more common than people might think in multiple occupant dwellings. The original occupants know they have some cross-linked wiring but deal with it in their lease or informally. When they move out, the institutional memory of how that cross-linking worked goes with them. You install an emon demon... You then operate each circuit individually to ascertain exactly what it is that the circuit is powering... Many places that see weird energy bills often have poorly labeled circuit breaker panels and tons of "mystery switches" on the wall which no one working there knows what they control... That's a great idea and he can use his existing meter to do it - if he can see it. I agree fully that the OP's likely to have bad, out-of-date or non-existent circuit labels. On boxes I've seen that's the norm. My panel is not only well labeled, but I've created a Word template for listing what outlets are controlled by which breakers, a level of detail often required to troubleshoot X-10 issues. But I have to ask: why does he have to buy an Emon? Wouldn't that same technique work with the existing meter? Why would he have to spend perhaps $500 to run test he could run using the existing meter? I can't imagine the power company wouldn't replace the existing meter setup with one where he can view his power usage contemporaneously if asked. The setup doesn't sound right from the get-go. For there to be any vampire loads would require other tenants in the building -- the OP has not said anything about the existence of such tenants (other than to say the building he works in belongs to his employer)... Doesn't the whole situation seem a bit odd? Maybe his boss is coming in when he's not there. (-: Personally, I don't believe there's a tap. I believe this is a rate issue coupled with a cold, cold winter where heaters and fans ran longer than normal hours. But believing that doesn't mean it's impossible that there's always been some other circuit attached to the panel that's only now become activated. I don't know enough about the OP's particular setup to know who could have access to what equipment and the layout of the premises. But as you suggested, it's a great idea to begin labeling and understanding the circuit breaker panel. That's a good place to start, no matter what. And the OP can do that using the existing meter, shutting down all circuits and then re-energizing them one by one to see what effect it has on the meter. If he kills all the single circuit breakers and the meter is still turning, we know he's got some other draw on the meter other than what's accounted for in that panel. But from what the OP says, I don't believe he can even SEE the meter to run those simple tests. If that's the case, that's the first thing that needs to be fixed. I can't understand and don't believe it's legal to have that sort of billing situation but that's the norm where I live. Might not be in the OP's district. The point is that someone could be doing something nasty like that to the OP. The cabinet might be locked by a tampered looking to keep his tampering away from prying eyes. (-: Bull... A tamperer would not have access to a utility company lock which was obviously supplied by the power company to secure the main metering enclosure cabinet... Are you saying that tamperers have never bypassed or obtained keys to utility locks? Can you state unequivocally, without seeing it, that it was "obviously" supplied by the power company? It sounds just a tad like you're introducing facts not in evidence (-:. Several posters have noted how queer his meter setup is already, leading at least this poster to wonder what else is wrong. I suspect that you're quite right about there being no vampire tap or serious miswiring, but I've learned not to assume much about situations I can't examine directly or by photograph. I don't think he has a tap or a mis-wire. They are just things to consider on the way to finding a solution. I've said previously, we're in fact-finding mode. It is probably not a good idea to constrain the possible solution sets by assuming everything's kosher at the meter box this early in the game. No one with "professional" eyes has looked at the seal or the setup, nor AFAIK, even seen a picture of it. That, IMHO, makes it way too early to rule out anything related to the meter. Based on some of the other clues the OP has mentioned, I suspect either a computerized bill error (they DO happen and we've had some doozies in the DC area with people receiving enormous erroneous bills (I'll bet most people don't complain if the bill seems too low!). In any event, I honestly believe that for the OP's peace of mind, as well as getting some real data points about consumption independent of the meter, spending $25 is a no-brainer. Doing an electrical inventory seems to be a better idea than hiring an electrician to install something he might not ever need if he determines the bill is accurate. I'm in favor of everyone doing a Kil-O-Watt type inventory of their home because they would be surprised to find what some of the high-tech toys take in electricity just to keep the IR remote control or some other circuitry alive. Yup, the Kill-O-Watt can not measure hardwired loads... That's where the OP can use his tong meter. Those loads usually have one hot in the circuit box that you can easily clamp around. Hardwired loads are not likely to be an issue unless he's wired into something like a streetlight, roof sign or some other external device. They weren't likely in any way to suddenly change and trigged a big jump in the bill. Only plugged in appliances... I once saw an office tenant that tried to save money by removing half the lamps from 4 lamp fluorescent fixtures and not re-lamping burnt out fixtures in a timely manner... Not re-lamping fluorescent fixtures on a predetermined schedule based on the designed life of the lamps being used is an error -- you will end up only getting 50% of the light output for the same consumption of power... I can't blame them. They hear a newsblip about saving money by reducing lighting and are not aware of the bad side effects, cost-wise and morale-wise. Lots of people do things they think will save them money, but ends up costing them more in the long run. FWIW, what do you think the cost of an emon d-mon would be for a business? I couldn't find any prices on their site which makes me nervous. It's a technique that typically mean "high priced." I've got a similar system built around a home automation controller that cost about $250 total. Assuming this system needs the same kind of electronics and add another $250 for the install and you're talking $500! I suspect our solutions differ in cost by at least a factor of 20. That's a lot in a cost-centric world. An emon demon gets wired up to a circuit breaker in the panel it is monitoring in order to sense the precise voltage on each phase... There are three sensor loops which clamp on the feeder conductors for each phase of the panel... No electronics on the basic emon demon model, its all in the little gray box... Yes, I am familiar with the technology. The Ocelot, a home automation controller, has the ability to detect voltage levels and convert them into readings which can be stored, analyzed and displayed throughout the house on various output devices. A sensor on each feeder returns a small voltage induced by the power passing through the feeder. The Ocelot's electronics converts that small voltage (proportional to the current flowing through the feeder) into a wattage number. The Ocelot's reading do not exactly match the power company's readings, though, for reasons that already have been discussed. So I think that means for the OP that induction sensors won't be as precise as the company meter and can tell him nothing about the individual loads he may need to balance IF he has demand metering. The Emon stuff may or may not show peak demand, although I think with the right programming the Ocelot or some other similar controller could be programmed to track peak usage points. The cost depends on what type of meter you want, the basic one just displays its reading on its face panel but there are other more advanced meters that can interface with a telephone for remote readings or integrate into a BAS system to track and graph power usage... Yes. I agree that there are lots of metering options he could investigate. But I don't think there's been nearly enough of an "environment scan" done yet to truly ascertain all the factors that could enter into this. So I think there's probably a lot of legwork yet to be done before any metering option is implemented. There are boatloads of power tracking systems out there. Eventually, there will be a standard for meter manufacturers that will allow for Bluetooth, wireless LAN, USB or some other sort of interface to provide moment-to-moment power stats to end users. I am too tired to look it up, but I distinctly recall a study that showed that letting people easily read how much juice they are consuming was the best way to get them to conserve. I remember the cost being $400 for a basic meter and upwards of $1,200 for an advanced one with all the options but it also depends on the amperage of the panel/circuit/equipment you want to monitor... Bongo Jerry! That's a bit steep. I'm still all for the KOW because it could provide the OP with valuable information *independent* of the company meter that could be very valuable if he's on a demand system and will need to balance his load more carefully to avoid high peaks. If HomeGuy was an SOB, he could even send the meter back because saying "It loses its kWh readings if the unit is unplugged or the power blinks." That's the cheap model's Achilles' heel. The more expensive units have a battery and many other features. *IF* he was a skunk and sent it back after using it, that would put the cost at less than $10. But HomeGuy doesn't sound like a skunk, just a perplexed business owner trying to control his costs. He's not an electro-techie yet he's somehow ****ed off a whole lot of electro-techies who seem to believe he should be "getting it" by now. This thread in particular was really a lot less collegiate than it should have been. People "get it" when they "get it" and insulting them doesn't ever help them "get it" faster, it usually just degenerates the thread. It has to make you wonder if that's not the goal: Not to be helpful, but to deliberately *try* to start an on-line brawl. I guess it's spring and the testosterone's running higher than the mighty Mississippi. Home Guy, I'll probably take a beating myself for saying this (fish got to swim, scolds have to scold) but I'm sorry you took such a pounding. It's uncalled for, especially over an apolitical issue like this. If you really want to take a beating, try starting this thread. "I want to design a system to limit my kid's PC and phone use." The scolds will be clawing each other bloody trying to explain that you wouldn't need such a system if you were a better parent. They will probably even insult your kids whom they've never met nor know anything about. That's Usenet! It always takes two to tango but abusing someone because they don't understand something in a group that's allegedly here to share information seems a bit harsh. It never makes anyone understand any better, it just raises their hackles. Can anyone here ever remember a *competent* teacher dealing with a student that way? Of course not. So why is it OK here to question someone's intelligence repeatedly on what is a complex techno-geographical question whose true parameters are probably still not known to a majority of posters and are peculiar to the OP's location? Everyone went to DefCon 4 in a microsecond. It usually takes this sort of nth level response to get as personal. Can't everyone pull in their horns a little? That's interesting. Why do the characters cause the newreader(newswriter?) quoting mechanism to foul up the line breaks? Who hasn't gotten a utility bill and thought "Gee, that seems a bit high?" The Kil-o-Watt is the cheapest, safest way to get a roadmap of your power consumption and to find out what watthogs need to be tamed. It's a must unless you like paying money to the electric company that could have stayed in your pocket. -- Bobby G. -- Bobby G. |
Estimating KWh electicity billing using clamp-on amp meter
" wrote:
Did you read the link? Yes, Obviously you didn't. Why should any utility put a demand meter on anyone pulling only 2000 kwh per month? They certainly didn't. Why do you insist they did? ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ =========== National Grid installs a demand meter whenever a customer's energy consumption has exceeded 2000 kilo-watt hours (kWh) per month for four consecutive months. ============= Now take your foot out of your mouth and explain why such an agressive policy is needed for a demand meter for such a paltry energy usage. You have all this time to find one counterexample (...) Yes, I have the time to entertain tangents to the thread I started, which includes showing what a moron you are when you don't read what others have posted. Why do you refuse to admit you were wrong? Diversion isin't an answer. |
Estimating KWh electicity billing using clamp-on amp meter
Ed Pawlowski wrote:
Aren't you in the MA area? That seems to be a monopoly of the monopolies. Is the city getting a cut? I'm in Ontario, Canada. |
Estimating KWh electicity billing using clamp-on amp meter
Gary Heston wrote:
Our water meter is read by the same person at the same time. I've never heard of a power company that would give a crap about the water meter. Is this the same utility? The city where I live owns and operates the electicity distribution utility and the water supply. Which is going to make it tricky for the water department because most homes have been retrofitted with time-of-use electronic electricity meters which have some sort of RF wireless communications link which is supposed to act like some sort of long daisy-chain communications channel and pass all their readings through each other to collection points or nodes. Which means that the water department is going to have to hire their own meter readers when the electronic power meter network becomes operational. I think they'll partner with the natural gas people, since they still also have to have a person come by and read the gas meters. |
Estimating KWh electicity billing using clamp-on amp meter
In ,
Home Guy typed: " wrote: .... This is the link: http://www.nationalgridus.com/niagar...lec-demand.pdf And this is what it says: =========== National Grid installs a demand meter whenever a customer's energy consumption has exceeded 2000 kilo-watt hours (kWh) per month for four consecutive months. Once demand billing begins, it does not end until after the monthly energy consumption has been less than 2,000 kwh for 12 consecutive months. This requirement may not be avoided by temporarily terminating service. New or existing customers whose connected load indicates that the energy consumption will exceed 2,000 kwh per month will have a demand meter installed. The demand charge will be the hightest average kW measured in a 15 minute interval during the billing period, but not less than one kw and not less than the demand contracted for. ============= Your quote is not a cut/paste of the actual words, which is too bad; looks like you paraphrased it to suit yourself or t was somehow not the rght one as it doesn't mention residential/company connections and several other things. That one very gross spelling error hurts you too; it stands out like a sore thumb. |
Estimating KWh electicity billing using clamp-on amp meter
In article ,
"Twayne" wrote: In , Home Guy typed: " wrote: ... This is the link: http://www.nationalgridus.com/niagar...lec-demand.pdf And this is what it says: =========== National Grid installs a demand meter whenever a customer's energy consumption has exceeded 2000 kilo-watt hours (kWh) per month for four consecutive months. Once demand billing begins, it does not end until after the monthly energy consumption has been less than 2,000 kwh for 12 consecutive months. This requirement may not be avoided by temporarily terminating service. New or existing customers whose connected load indicates that the energy consumption will exceed 2,000 kwh per month will have a demand meter installed. The demand charge will be the hightest average kW measured in a 15 minute interval during the billing period, but not less than one kw and not less than the demand contracted for. ============= Your quote is not a cut/paste of the actual words, which is too bad; looks like you paraphrased it to suit yourself or t was somehow not the rght one as it doesn't mention residential/company connections and several other things. That one very gross spelling error hurts you too; it stands out like a sore thumb. I didn't compare HG's wording to that of the link, but FWIW, you can't "cut and paste" a pdf. |
Estimating KWh electicity billing using clamp-on amp meter
On May 30, 9:15*pm, "
wrote: On Mon, 30 May 2011 17:52:55 -0700 (PDT), The Ghost in The Machine wrote: On May 30, 2:38*pm, " wrote: On Mon, 30 May 2011 02:34:45 -0700 (PDT), The Ghost in The Machine wrote: On May 28, 5:38*pm, " wrote: On Sat, 28 May 2011 15:21:47 -0500, Jim Yanik wrote: "RBM" wrote : "Mark" wrote in message ... On May 27, 8:47 pm, Home Guy wrote: RBM used improper usenet message composition style by full-quoting: 3) There are (on average) 30.4 days in a month, and therefore 730 hours in a month. If I take the above wattage calculation (120 x total_current) and multiply it by 730, then divide by 1000, I should get a quantity energy measurement (KWh) that should match (or approximate) my bill from the local utility - assuming that the load in use at the time of the readings are representative of daily or continuous use. If this method of obtaining a representative monthly KWh measurement is not correct (or needs more refinement) then please state what, why or how. **You're not going to be the least bit accurate trying to calculate that way. I want to establish several use-case situations, primarily a "worst-case" KWh monthly usage by assuming that all the devices that are normally on during a week-day 9-am to 5-pm work day and turned off at all other times are instead left on continuously 24/7. I can also get current readings for other use-case situations (evenings and week-ends) that should give me a more closer-to-reality current reading and factor in their time-of use over the course of a month. This is a small office - not a home. There are fewer variable involved. There is no reason that you shouldn't be able to look at the electric meter. The meter is in a locked cabinet. The only time I get to see it is when the meter-reader guy comes around once a month to read it. I suspect the meter is in a locked cabinet to prevent tampering / bypass (the meter is inside the utility / furnace room of the building and is not accessible from the outside). And besides, having the ability to lay my eyes on the meter won't tell me anything about the accuracy of the meter, or the real-time current consumption. All I want to know is - should the current readings from a clamp-on meter (when extrapolated across the 730 hours of a typical month) jive with the accumulated KWh reading as measured by a typical billing meter? Do I have to do any "special" math to the wattage I calculate with the meter to arrive at what the billing meter is measuring? yes you are correct you can get a rough reading this way.. you need to measure and sum only the 3 black cables, do not include the white striped cable in the sum. Add up the 3 currents and multiply by 120 and this is your VAs and the actual Watts will be equal to or less then the VAs. Multiply by hours and you have Watt Hours. Divide by 1000 and you have kWh which is how you are billed. Mark This is a commercial service and metering equipment. How is he going to guestimate demand? since the white return wire returns the current from all 3 phases,wouldn't that give you the sum of all the currents? Only the *difference* of the three phases is returned in the neutral. *With a balanced load there will be zero current in the neutral. YOU ARE ALL SO FULL OF HOOEY.....THE ABOVE STATEMENT IS INCORRECT. ON SAID NEUTRAL THERE WILL BE A POTENTIAL TO GROUND EQUAL TO THE LOAD.... KRW YOU ARE ONE DUMBASS ENDANGERING MOTHER****ER. You're stupid even for a sparky wannabe (a.k.a. wire-puller), Queerjano. *I am exactly right. *Only the imbalance in the load is returned in the neutral. * I HAVE COME TO TNE CONCLUSION THAT THOUGH SOME OF YOU ARE VERSED AND EDUCATED YOUR OBSERVATIONS AND KNOWLEDGE IS WANDERING...RENDERING THESE GROUPS USELESS, *MISGUIDING AND NOT WORTH THE EFFORT PUT INTO THEM... You *are* useless, Queerjano. *Actually, you have a negative value as a human. Stop it now! PATECUM Still eating cum, Pattycakes? TGITM Penicillin will take care of that. YOU REALLY THINK I AM SOMEONE ELSE No, I *know* you're Roy Queerjano. YOU FOOL. Smart enough to know you don't know your ass from your mouth. *Understood that they are in constant close proximity. HE WAS THE SMART ON AND LEFT..BUT YOUR WRETCHED RICKETTY SOUL IS MINE FOOL. The smart on? *No, Queerjano, you could never be accused of that. NEXT STOP..HELL! Have a nice trip. PATECUM Still eating that stuff? *Yuck! YOUR MAMMA, SHES CALLING YOU MAN......GROW UP.....DONT BE A FOOL ANYMORE....WITH LUCK SOME DAY YOU MAY STILL DIE LIKE A MAN.....INSTEAD OF THE IDIOTIC FLAMING FAGGOTY TROLL THAT YOU ARE. TGITM PAT ECUM |
Estimating KWh electicity billing using clamp-on amp meter
On May 30, 9:15*pm, "
wrote: On Mon, 30 May 2011 17:52:55 -0700 (PDT), The Ghost in The Machine wrote: On May 30, 2:38*pm, " wrote: On Mon, 30 May 2011 02:34:45 -0700 (PDT), The Ghost in The Machine wrote: On May 28, 5:38*pm, " wrote: On Sat, 28 May 2011 15:21:47 -0500, Jim Yanik wrote: "RBM" wrote : "Mark" wrote in message ... On May 27, 8:47 pm, Home Guy wrote: RBM used improper usenet message composition style by full-quoting: 3) There are (on average) 30.4 days in a month, and therefore 730 hours in a month. If I take the above wattage calculation (120 x total_current) and multiply it by 730, then divide by 1000, I should get a quantity energy measurement (KWh) that should match (or approximate) my bill from the local utility - assuming that the load in use at the time of the readings are representative of daily or continuous use. If this method of obtaining a representative monthly KWh measurement is not correct (or needs more refinement) then please state what, why or how. **You're not going to be the least bit accurate trying to calculate that way. I want to establish several use-case situations, primarily a "worst-case" KWh monthly usage by assuming that all the devices that are normally on during a week-day 9-am to 5-pm work day and turned off at all other times are instead left on continuously 24/7. I can also get current readings for other use-case situations (evenings and week-ends) that should give me a more closer-to-reality current reading and factor in their time-of use over the course of a month. This is a small office - not a home. There are fewer variable involved. There is no reason that you shouldn't be able to look at the electric meter. The meter is in a locked cabinet. The only time I get to see it is when the meter-reader guy comes around once a month to read it. I suspect the meter is in a locked cabinet to prevent tampering / bypass (the meter is inside the utility / furnace room of the building and is not accessible from the outside). And besides, having the ability to lay my eyes on the meter won't tell me anything about the accuracy of the meter, or the real-time current consumption. All I want to know is - should the current readings from a clamp-on meter (when extrapolated across the 730 hours of a typical month) jive with the accumulated KWh reading as measured by a typical billing meter? Do I have to do any "special" math to the wattage I calculate with the meter to arrive at what the billing meter is measuring? yes you are correct you can get a rough reading this way.. you need to measure and sum only the 3 black cables, do not include the white striped cable in the sum. Add up the 3 currents and multiply by 120 and this is your VAs and the actual Watts will be equal to or less then the VAs. Multiply by hours and you have Watt Hours. Divide by 1000 and you have kWh which is how you are billed. Mark This is a commercial service and metering equipment. How is he going to guestimate demand? since the white return wire returns the current from all 3 phases,wouldn't that give you the sum of all the currents? Only the *difference* of the three phases is returned in the neutral. *With a balanced load there will be zero current in the neutral. YOU ARE ALL SO FULL OF HOOEY.....THE ABOVE STATEMENT IS INCORRECT. ON SAID NEUTRAL THERE WILL BE A POTENTIAL TO GROUND EQUAL TO THE LOAD.... KRW YOU ARE ONE DUMBASS ENDANGERING MOTHER****ER. You're stupid even for a sparky wannabe (a.k.a. wire-puller), Queerjano. *I am exactly right. *Only the imbalance in the load is returned in the neutral. * I HAVE COME TO TNE CONCLUSION THAT THOUGH SOME OF YOU ARE VERSED AND EDUCATED YOUR OBSERVATIONS AND KNOWLEDGE IS WANDERING...RENDERING THESE GROUPS USELESS, *MISGUIDING AND NOT WORTH THE EFFORT PUT INTO THEM... You *are* useless, Queerjano. *Actually, you have a negative value as a human. Stop it now! PATECUM Still eating cum, Pattycakes? TGITM Penicillin will take care of that. YOU REALLY THINK I AM SOMEONE ELSE No, I *know* you're Roy Queerjano. YOU FOOL. Smart enough to know you don't know your ass from your mouth. *Understood that they are in constant close proximity. HE WAS THE SMART ON AND LEFT..BUT YOUR WRETCHED RICKETTY SOUL IS MINE FOOL. The smart on? *No, Queerjano, you could never be accused of that. NEXT STOP..HELL! Have a nice trip. PATECUM Still eating that stuff? *Yuck! KIETH WHAT ARE YOU SOME SORT OF SISSY MAN.?? KERP IT RIGHT OR SHUT THE **** UP ALREADY. STOP BRINGING UP ROY AND QUIT ****ING WITH HIS NAME. THIS WILL NEVER END.......CHOOSE TO DO THE RIGHT THING, OR LOSE DOING IT WRONG AS YOU'VE BEEN DOING SO FAR.........YOU & YOUR CRONIES ARE NOT ABOVE THE LAW....YOU WILL NOT GO UNPUNISHED....END IT...DO NOT RESPOND....OR I WILL CONTINUE TO MEET YOUR LAME BRAIN ATTACKS.....WITH WORD FORCE...YOU KEEP IT UP & IF SOMEDAY SOMEONE REALLY GETS HURT IT'LL BE ON YOUR CONSCIENCE. JUST KEEP IN MIND, SOMEDAY, YOU WILL PAY FOR WHAT YOU DID TO OTHERS HERE..... FLAMING IS DISALLOWED....STOP VIOLATING OR YOU'LL BE SORRY...FOR EVERY COUNT. TGITM |
Estimating KWh electicity billing using clamp-on amp meter
On May 31, 9:08*am, Home Guy wrote:
" wrote: Did you read the link? Yes, Obviously you didn't. Why should any utility put a demand meter on anyone pulling only 2000 kwh per month? They certainly didn't. *Why do you insist they did? * * *^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ =========== National Grid installs a demand meter whenever a customer's energy consumption has exceeded 2000 kilo-watt hours (kWh) *per month for four consecutive months. ============= Now take your foot out of your mouth and explain why such an agressive policy is needed for a demand meter for such a paltry energy usage. You have all this time to find one counterexample (...) Yes, I have the time to entertain tangents to the thread I started, which includes showing what a moron you are when you don't read what others have posted. Why do you refuse to admit you were wrong? *Diversion isin't an answer. I AM STARTING TO BELIEVE HE IS A SQUALY. HE IS SO USE TO BEING WRONG, HE JUST CANNOT BE RIGHT. NOT THAT HE EVEN TRIES TO DO WHATS RIGHT...HE LOVES ****ING ON OTHERS POSTS, EVEN THOUGH HE GETS ****ED OUT OVER & OVER AGAIN. ITS A REAL SHAME...HE SEEMS SO BRILLIANT AT TIMES. FOOLISHNESS BECOMES HIM. TGITM |
Estimating KWh electicity billing using clamp-on amp meter
On Tue, 31 May 2011 09:20:17 -0400, Home Guy wrote:
Gary Heston wrote: Our water meter is read by the same person at the same time. I've never heard of a power company that would give a crap about the water meter. Is this the same utility? The city where I live owns and operates the electicity distribution utility and the water supply. Which is going to make it tricky for the water department because most homes have been retrofitted with time-of-use electronic electricity meters which have some sort of RF wireless communications link which is supposed to act like some sort of long daisy-chain communications channel and pass all their readings through each other to collection points or nodes. Which means that the water department is going to have to hire their own meter readers when the electronic power meter network becomes operational. I think they'll partner with the natural gas people, since they still also have to have a person come by and read the gas meters. Why don't they just piggyback the water meters on top of the power meters? There are no meter readers here. It's all "smart grid". |
Estimating KWh electicity billing using clamp-on amp meter
On Tue, 31 May 2011 09:08:48 -0400, Home Guy wrote:
" wrote: Did you read the link? Yes, Obviously you didn't. Why should any utility put a demand meter on anyone pulling only 2000 kwh per month? They certainly didn't. Why do you insist they did? ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ =========== National Grid installs a demand meter whenever a customer's energy consumption has exceeded 2000 kilo-watt hours (kWh) per month for four consecutive months. ============= Now take your foot out of your mouth and explain why such an agressive policy is needed for a demand meter for such a paltry energy usage. You have all this time to find one counterexample (...) Yes, I have the time to entertain tangents to the thread I started, But no time to research your own damned problem. which includes showing what a moron you are when you don't read what others have posted. Of course you're too stupid to figure out that I have read the whole silly thread. You really are an ass. Why do you refuse to admit you were wrong? Diversion isin't an answer. I said you fond ONE counterexample, dummy. Why do you snip context? The fact is that you aren't looking for an answer, troll. |
Estimating KWh electicity billing using clamp-on amp meter
On Tue, 31 May 2011 08:46:16 -0700, Smitty Two
wrote: In article , "Twayne" wrote: In , Home Guy typed: " wrote: ... This is the link: http://www.nationalgridus.com/niagar...lec-demand.pdf And this is what it says: =========== National Grid installs a demand meter whenever a customer's energy consumption has exceeded 2000 kilo-watt hours (kWh) per month for four consecutive months. Once demand billing begins, it does not end until after the monthly energy consumption has been less than 2,000 kwh for 12 consecutive months. This requirement may not be avoided by temporarily terminating service. New or existing customers whose connected load indicates that the energy consumption will exceed 2,000 kwh per month will have a demand meter installed. The demand charge will be the hightest average kW measured in a 15 minute interval during the billing period, but not less than one kw and not less than the demand contracted for. ============= Your quote is not a cut/paste of the actual words, which is too bad; looks like you paraphrased it to suit yourself or t was somehow not the rght one as it doesn't mention residential/company connections and several other things. That one very gross spelling error hurts you too; it stands out like a sore thumb. I didn't compare HG's wording to that of the link, but FWIW, you can't "cut and paste" a pdf. Sure you can. I do it all the time. Some can't be edited (depending on how it was created) or cut but just because it's a PDF doesn't mean you can't cut-n-paste from it. You can highlight, underscore, add notes, and do a *lot* of things to a PDF. |
Estimating KWh electicity billing using clamp-on amp meter
"dpb" wrote in message ...
On 5/29/2011 10:03 PM, Robert Green wrote: ... No, I beg to differ. I always feel much more comfortable encountering service personnel and such knowing as much as I can learn elsewhere. I believe the OP has learned a great deal from this thread and could get to the point where an encounter isn't even necessary. His bill probably holds the sad tale of a one time excursion into a higher rate zone that's cost him big time. I'll bet he now becomes very aggressive managing his peak load. ... I get no feeling OP has really learned a thing...it seems to all just pass over as it doesn't fit into the preconceived notion. I'd be reluctant to say that. Once a thread gets to a certain level of "tension" it becomes more a question of ¿Quien es mas Macho? His complaint is he has a few months w/ very high usage; not that the $ amount is high at relatively low total usage (as would be the symptom of a demand-induced premium). I think the likelihood he actually has a demand meter is very low. Checking what I have for the beginning of the thread (and my newserver gets swamped when those Teranewsians' server fails g) he started, at least, asking three specific questions: 1) when coming up with a total current measurement, do I include the current flowing on the neutral line? 2) He was looking how to calculate the "worst case" (all loads operating simultaneously I assume) 3) He wanted to know if there was an error in how he intended to calculate a maximum load. That's at least why I recommended the Kil-O-Watt. He described a large number of easily tested, non-hardwired loads on his premises. I do see in reviewing the thread from top down that his 1st line reply to RBM was: "RBM used improper usenet message composition style by full-quoting:" Maybe that's his newsreader automatically set to net-nanny "FULL ON" (-: So maybe you're right, the OP has a bit to learn about not biting the hand that's feeding him and was contributory in this interesting thread turning slightly sour. My mistake. From the numbers on usage he posted before, it appears to be a fairly consistent usage w/ a couple of months extreme outliers. Both of those are early in different years; my hypothesis is that the other months are, for the most part, estimated rather than actually read and the one annual blip is the catchup because they've not updated the average usage to reflect actual since it was set up (probably before OP bought the building). Because I've had my own tangles with bad meters and something the phone company called a "left on" connection (that actually turned into a national security matter), I pay attention to news reports of billing errors. This could just as easily be a screw-up with his electric company's billing systems. They are forever futzing with their programs to account for new "revenue streams" and fees and could have made any number of mistakes. Based on the level of errors I've seen reported in DoD studies, shift happens. A decimal point here and there, the wrong variable name, etc. While you may be perfectly correct in why the readings show the way they do, there are a lot of other explanations. But it terms of learning, I think we (and perhaps he) have learned some critical things. You can't meter the neutral of a three-phase feeder and expect to get information about total usage, only the level of imbalance of the downstream circuits. We've learned that it's unusual not to be able to see your meter whenever you choose to, but apparently not universal. That's something for the OP to work out between himself, the power company and his landlord. As nearly everyone has said, to solve the puzzle more information is needed. But I don't think it could ever hurt him to spend $25 on a Kil-O-Watt meter. He indicated from the start he wanted to measure total wattage, and the KOW will do that far better for the gear he has than any tong meter I know of. It calculates true wattage and can measure average usage over long periods of time. Going to the power company to investigate further knowing *exactly* what he's got in his office will let them know that he's done his homework, at least. That's important in dealing with them. -- Bobby G. "When the universe comes to destroy man, man will still be nobler than that which tries to destroy him, because in his death man knows he is dying and of its victory, the universe knows absolutely nothing." - Pascal |
Estimating KWh electicity billing using clamp-on amp meter
On 6/1/2011 5:47 AM, Robert Green wrote:
wrote in message ... .... ... he started, at least, asking three specific questions: 1) when coming up with a total current measurement, do I include the current flowing on the neutral line? 2) He was looking how to calculate the "worst case" (all loads operating simultaneously I assume) 3) He wanted to know if there was an error in how he intended to calculate a maximum load. That's at least why I recommended the Kil-O-Watt. He described a large number of easily tested, non-hardwired loads on his premises. .... From the numbers on usage he posted before, it appears to be a fairly consistent usage w/ a couple of months extreme outliers. Both of those are early in different years; my hypothesis is that the other months are, for the most part, estimated rather than actually read and the one annual blip is the catchup because they've not updated the average usage to reflect actual since it was set up (probably before OP bought the building). Because I've had my own tangles with bad meters and something the phone company called a "left on" connection (that actually turned into a national security matter), I pay attention to news reports of billing errors. This could just as easily be a screw-up with his electric company's billing systems. ... Indeed it could... While you may be perfectly correct in why the readings show the way they do, there are a lot of other explanations. But it terms of learning, I think we (and perhaps he) have learned some critical things. You can't meter the neutral of a three-phase feeder and expect to get information about total usage, only the level of imbalance of the downstream circuits. We've learned that it's unusual not to be able to see your meter whenever you choose to, but apparently not universal. That's something for the OP to work out between himself, the power company and his landlord. As nearly everyone has said, to solve the puzzle more information is needed. But I don't think it could ever hurt him to spend $25 on a Kil-O-Watt meter. He indicated from the start he wanted to measure total wattage, and the KOW will do that far better for the gear he has than any tong meter I know of. .... I never said (and hopefully didn't imply by poor wording) my idea was the only possible explanation; simply a theory (apparently refuted, eventually). OP is the (new, but not terribly so iirc 6yr) owner of the building so I'd presume he has some pull w/ the landlord... :) It would seem anything about the lock on the cabinet/meter that he would be allowed to do by whatever limitations placed by the utility/city could have been resolved in that time. If the limitation is only inertia on his part, that's another kettle...there's insufficient information to know _why_ it is currently as it is. It's a commercial building w/ 3-phase service and the loads he mentioned were a few computers, basically. The Kil-O-Watt meter can monitor them but it'll do nothing for what is most likely by far the majority of the load which will be the 3-phase lighting, possibly water heater and other service loads. It'll be measuring the noise around the edges. The characteristics of the peculiarities aren't likely to be explained by a loading issue anyway imo. The doubling of the readings in months that are roughly a year apart is just not credible as an ordinary event of somebody left the lights on over a weekend. It's either an accounting issue, an error in the reading or the like that is artificially being induced somewhat like your above suggestion (or mine of a different yet similar mechanism) or there's a _major_ intermittent load or fault somewhere on the system. Either of those isn't going to be found by a minimal one-time guesstimate of the maximum possible monthly usage even if he measures an instantaneous 3-phase usage correctly and it certainly won't be found by poking around on one computer supply at a time. $0.02, imo, ymmv, etc., etc., etc., ... -- |
Estimating KWh electicity billing using clamp-on amp meter
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