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Can you use white for one leg of 240V circuit?
"dpb" wrote in message ... On 5/2/2011 6:22 PM, RBM wrote: wrote in message ... On 5/2/2011 5:24 PM, RBM wrote: ... --** If you look in 250-140 of any newer code book is shows what "was" acceptable for electric dryers Could be; I don't have a copy... Doesn't really matter; the old rules are no longer in effect but did seem worthy to correct the idea that somehow all those earlier installations were not Code-compliant at the time and only were allowed by (essentially) dishonest inspections passing violations. -- ** What we have here, is a total misconception of the code on the part of some of these posters. The rules for non insulated neutral/ground use on cooking and electric dryers are still applicable. New installations must be 4 wire, but existing installations are perfectly acceptable, if they were done properly to begin with. The rules simply required that the non insulated ground/neutral is part of a type "SE" cable not smaller than 10 gauge, originating from the main service panel. I never suggested that a two wire cable with uninsulated ground wasn't acceptable, only that 10/2g Romex was never acceptable, as it is not type SE, the only acceptable type of cable that can be used for this purpose Roger...wasn't clear on the SE rating earlier, thanks for pointing it out....hmmm...looking at earlier posting I see the way I paraphrased wasn't really good in indicating that the run does have to be service cable SE-rated as well as the no branching rule--I was focused on the bare connector part too much from wording earlier. ** Here is a passage I lifted from a Mike Holt discussion, regarding this issue: Article 250-60 in the 1993 code said that the frames of ranges and clothes dryers "shall be permitted to be grounded to the GROUNDED CIRCUIT CONDUCTOR if all of the conditions indicated in (a) through (d) below are met." Condition (c) states that "The grounded conductor is insulated; or the grounded conductor is uninsulated and part of a Type SE service-entrance cable and the branch circuit originates at the service equipment." |
Can you use white for one leg of 240V circuit?
On May 2, 5:35*pm, "RBM" wrote:
"jamesgangnc" wrote in message ... On May 2, 9:03 am, Tom Horne wrote: On May 2, 7:45 am, jamesgangnc wrote: On May 2, 6:37 am, "RBM" wrote: "The Daring Dufas" wrote in ... On 5/1/2011 9:12 PM, RBM wrote: "The Daring wrote in message ... On 5/1/2011 7:40 PM, wrote: OK, here'e the questiond du jour. Was helping a friend and when we took off the circuit breaker panel cover we discovered that for both AC units, whoever did this used white for one of the 240V hots.. There is no tape or tag to identify it as a hot. Is this allowed by code? Even if it is, seems bad practice to me. I would have used either red or black. If you see a 10/2 with ground hooked to a two pole breaker on one end and disconnect for an AC condensing unit, water heater or dryer plug on the other end, you pretty much know that the white wire is another 240 volt leg. I agree with you, although, you should NEVER have a 10/2G feeding an electric dryer, unless you can find a piece of 10/2 SEU copper, which I've never seen. Despite the code, it is extremely rare that I ever see the white wire remarked I've seen it for years but as of late the rule change calls for a four wire circuit. Years ago I installed a lot of dryers with 10/2 w/gr but now I use 10/3 w/gr or 8/3 w/gr. The smallest aluminum SEU you can run in a house around here is #2 which I often use for stoves. Moving an old dryer to a new location has us removing the old 3 wire cord and plug for the 4 wire cord and plug. I often run 10/2 w/gr to the disconnect for a 2 ton condensing unit and never bother to mark the white wire because it's in the same jacket as the black and ground. TDD 10/2g is fine for hot water heaters, or A/C units. It has never been acceptable for an electric dryer, because the ground/neutral was required to be insulated. The only exception was using SUE cable, originating from the main service panel- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Actually 10/2 with a three prong plug was acceptable for dyers for a long time. Dryers have a metal strap inside them that connected neutral and ground together. The code now calls for a 4 prong plug and 10/3 with ground now. But I'll bet there are still millions of 3 prong installations out there. I don't know if replacing the dryer meet the code requirement to upgrade to 10/3 since you are not actually touching the circuit any. Existing circuits do not have to be upgraded to meet newer code releases. He was talking about moving the dryer not just replacing it. -- Tom Horne- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I didn't see anything in the thread about moving a dryer? *The op mentioned it related to the ac compressors. *On pure 240 circuits such as an ac compressor use of 2 conductors with a ground always has been and is still accpetable. *Same is true for hot water heaters. *New wiring for appliances that use both 240 and 120 such as stoves and electric dryers now requires 3 conductors plus ground. *And a 4 prong outlet. *RBM stated that 2 condutor with a ground was never accpetable for dryers and that's just false. *For many years dryers were wired using 10/2 and the strap inside the dryer connected neutral and ground together. ** NO, RBM stated that 10/2g was never acceptable for electric dryers. 10/2 copper SEU cable would be acceptable, but I have never seen it. You would typically see 8/2 aluminum SEU. 10/2g Romex has NEVER been Nec approved for electric dryers On 5/1/2011 9:12 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote: "I've seen it for years but as of late the rule change calls for a four wire circuit. Years ago I installed a lot of dryers with 10/2 w/gr but now I use 10/3 w/gr or 8/3 w/gr. The smallest aluminum SEU you can run in a house around here is #2 which I often use for stoves. Moving an old dryer to a new location has us removing the old 3 wire cord and plug for the 4 wire cord and plug. I often run 10/2 w/gr to the disconnect for a 2 ton condensing unit and never bother to mark the white wire because it's in the same jacket as the black and ground. TDD" RBM Here is the point in the thread were moving dryers was mentioned. -- Tom Horne |
Can you use white for one leg of 240V circuit?
On May 3, 10:50*am, Tom Horne wrote:
On May 2, 5:35*pm, "RBM" wrote: "jamesgangnc" wrote in message .... On May 2, 9:03 am, Tom Horne wrote: On May 2, 7:45 am, jamesgangnc wrote: On May 2, 6:37 am, "RBM" wrote: "The Daring Dufas" wrote in ... On 5/1/2011 9:12 PM, RBM wrote: "The Daring wrote in message ... On 5/1/2011 7:40 PM, wrote: OK, here'e the questiond du jour. Was helping a friend and when we took off the circuit breaker panel cover we discovered that for both AC units, whoever did this used white for one of the 240V hots. There is no tape or tag to identify it as a hot. Is this allowed by code? Even if it is, seems bad practice to me. I would have used either red or black. If you see a 10/2 with ground hooked to a two pole breaker on one end and disconnect for an AC condensing unit, water heater or dryer plug on the other end, you pretty much know that the white wire is another 240 volt leg. I agree with you, although, you should NEVER have a 10/2G feeding an electric dryer, unless you can find a piece of 10/2 SEU copper, which I've never seen. Despite the code, it is extremely rare that I ever see the white wire remarked I've seen it for years but as of late the rule change calls for a four wire circuit. Years ago I installed a lot of dryers with 10/2 w/gr but now I use 10/3 w/gr or 8/3 w/gr. The smallest aluminum SEU you can run in a house around here is #2 which I often use for stoves. Moving an old dryer to a new location has us removing the old 3 wire cord and plug for the 4 wire cord and plug. I often run 10/2 w/gr to the disconnect for a 2 ton condensing unit and never bother to mark the white wire because it's in the same jacket as the black and ground. TDD 10/2g is fine for hot water heaters, or A/C units. It has never been acceptable for an electric dryer, because the ground/neutral was required to be insulated. The only exception was using SUE cable, originating from the main service panel- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Actually 10/2 with a three prong plug was acceptable for dyers for a long time. Dryers have a metal strap inside them that connected neutral and ground together. The code now calls for a 4 prong plug and 10/3 with ground now. But I'll bet there are still millions of 3 prong installations out there. I don't know if replacing the dryer meet the code requirement to upgrade to 10/3 since you are not actually touching the circuit any. Existing circuits do not have to be upgraded to meet newer code releases. He was talking about moving the dryer not just replacing it. -- Tom Horne- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I didn't see anything in the thread about moving a dryer? *The op mentioned it related to the ac compressors. *On pure 240 circuits such as an ac compressor use of 2 conductors with a ground always has been and is still accpetable. *Same is true for hot water heaters. *New wiring for appliances that use both 240 and 120 such as stoves and electric dryers now requires 3 conductors plus ground. *And a 4 prong outlet. *RBM stated that 2 condutor with a ground was never accpetable for dryers and that's just false. *For many years dryers were wired using 10/2 and the strap inside the dryer connected neutral and ground together. ** NO, RBM stated that 10/2g was never acceptable for electric dryers. 10/2 copper SEU cable would be acceptable, but I have never seen it. You would typically see 8/2 aluminum SEU. 10/2g Romex has NEVER been Nec approved for electric dryers On 5/1/2011 9:12 PM, The Daring Dufas *wrote: "I've seen it for years but as of late the rule change calls for a four wire circuit. Years ago I installed a lot of dryers with 10/2 w/gr but now I use 10/3 w/gr or 8/3 w/gr. The smallest aluminum SEU you can run in a house around here is #2 which I often use for stoves. Moving an old dryer to a new location has us removing the old 3 wire cord and plug for the 4 wire cord and plug. I often run 10/2 w/gr to the disconnect for a 2 ton condensing unit and never bother to mark the white wire because it's in the same jacket as the black and ground. TDD" RBM Here is the point in the thread were moving dryers was mentioned. -- Tom Horne- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Missed that one. I'm still having trouble believing that 10/2 w ground ws not code accepted at some point in the past. Just because I have seen so many of them. But I don't have copies of old code laying around to prove or disprove. And we all agree that any chanes require it be brought up to 10/3 w ground. The other point is one I'm not sure about either. Does code require a white condutor be marked black if it is used as one leg of a 240 circuit? |
Can you use white for one leg of 240V circuit?
On May 3, 11:48*am, wrote:
On Tue, 3 May 2011 07:59:51 -0700 (PDT), jamesgangnc wrote: The other point is one I'm not sure about either. *Does code require a white condutor be marked black if it is used as one leg of a 240 circuit? Yes it is required to be reidentified. The only place where you didn't have to do it was in a switch leg using a cable (like Romex) but they plugged that hole in 1999. They still require that the white be used as the hot side of the switch leg, even when reidentified. That way the switched side will be the normal color at the light. (or other equipment) Interesting. You sure don't find them re-marked in the real world much. At least not in residential anyway. |
Can you use white for one leg of 240V circuit?
On May 3, 11:48*am, wrote:
On Tue, 3 May 2011 07:59:51 -0700 (PDT), jamesgangnc wrote: The other point is one I'm not sure about either. *Does code require a white condutor be marked black if it is used as one leg of a 240 circuit? Yes it is required to be reidentified. The only place where you didn't have to do it was in a switch leg using a cable (like Romex) but they plugged that hole in 1999. They still require that the white be used as the hot side of the switch leg, even when reidentified. That way the switched side will be the normal color at the light. (or other equipment) really? typ. practice is to use black for hot and white for switched IME nate |
Can you use white for one leg of 240V circuit?
On May 3, 5:11*pm, wrote:
On Tue, 3 May 2011 12:47:39 -0700 (PDT), N8N wrote: On May 3, 11:48*am, wrote: On Tue, 3 May 2011 07:59:51 -0700 (PDT), jamesgangnc wrote: The other point is one I'm not sure about either. *Does code require a white condutor be marked black if it is used as one leg of a 240 circuit? Yes it is required to be reidentified. The only place where you didn't have to do it was in a switch leg using a cable (like Romex) but they plugged that hole in 1999. They still require that the white be used as the hot side of the switch leg, even when reidentified. That way the switched side will be the normal color at the light. (or other equipment) really? *typ. practice is to use black for hot and white for switched IME nate It is not what the code says. The white gets connected to the hot side and the black is the switched leg so when it gets to the luminaire the installer is presented with a white and a black. 200-7(C)(2)Where a cable assembly contains an insulated conductor for single-pole, 3-way or 4-way switch loops and the conductor with white or gray insulation or a marking of three continuous white stripes is used for the supply to the switch but not as a return conductor from the switch to the switched outlet. In these applications, the conductor with white or gray insulation or with three continuous white stripes shall be permanently reidentified to indicate its use by painting or other effective means at its terminations and at each location where the conductor is visible and accessible. IF IT IS SO IMPORTANT WHY DON'T THEY MAKE CODE COMPLIANT CABLES...IT'S EASY WHEN THE WORK IS PIPED OUT YOU CAN EASILY RUN IT PROPERLY, BUT WHY DONT THEY MAKE IT READY TO GO ON ROLES...ANYHOW, IF I WERE AN ELECTRICIAN I I WOULD PURCHASE THE EMPTY GREENFIELD AND WIRE IT UP TO CODE EVERY-TIME...THAT'S WHAT THEY DO IN PROFESSIONAL WORKMAN SOCIETIES. YOU PEOPLE HAVE GROWN TOO LAZY AND COMPLACENT... DAMMIT WHY DID THEY HAVE TO ASSASSINATE ME.....? FREAKING ENVIOUS EVILDOERS...JUST WAIT UNTIL JESUS RETURNS.. I'LL BE BACK!:) PATECUM TGITM |
Can you use white for one leg of 240V circuit?
On May 3, 5:21*pm, The Ghost in The Machine
wrote: On May 3, 5:11*pm, wrote: On Tue, 3 May 2011 12:47:39 -0700 (PDT), N8N wrote: On May 3, 11:48*am, wrote: On Tue, 3 May 2011 07:59:51 -0700 (PDT), jamesgangnc wrote: The other point is one I'm not sure about either. *Does code require a white condutor be marked black if it is used as one leg of a 240 circuit? Yes it is required to be reidentified. The only place where you didn't have to do it was in a switch leg using a cable (like Romex) but they plugged that hole in 1999. They still require that the white be used as the hot side of the switch leg, even when reidentified. That way the switched side will be the normal color at the light. (or other equipment) really? *typ. practice is to use black for hot and white for switched IME nate It is not what the code says. The white gets connected to the hot side and the black is the switched leg so when it gets to the luminaire the installer is presented with a white and a black. 200-7(C)(2)Where a cable assembly contains an insulated conductor for single-pole, 3-way or 4-way switch loops and the conductor with white or gray insulation or a marking of three continuous white stripes is used for the supply to the switch but not as a return conductor from the switch to the switched outlet. In these applications, the conductor with white or gray insulation or with three continuous white stripes shall be permanently reidentified to indicate its use by painting or other effective means at its terminations and at each location where the conductor is visible and accessible. IF IT IS SO IMPORTANT WHY DON'T THEY MAKE CODE COMPLIANT CABLES...IT'S EASY WHEN THE WORK IS PIPED OUT YOU CAN EASILY RUN IT PROPERLY, BUT WHY DONT THEY MAKE IT READY TO GO ON ROLES...ANYHOW, IF I WERE AN ELECTRICIAN I I WOULD PURCHASE THE EMPTY GREENFIELD AND WIRE IT UP TO CODE EVERY-TIME...THAT'S WHAT THEY DO IN PROFESSIONAL WORKMAN SOCIETIES. YOU PEOPLE HAVE GROWN TOO LAZY AND COMPLACENT... DAMMIT WHY DID THEY HAVE TO ASSASSINATE ME.....? FREAKING ENVIOUS EVILDOERS...JUST WAIT UNTIL JESUS RETURNS.. I'LL BE BACK!:) PATECUM TGITM WELL ANYWAY THE ANSWER TO THE OP IS "YES", YOU CAN USE THE WHITE CONDUCTOR IN A CABLE FOR A 240V CIRCUIT...ONLY THING IS YOU HAVE TO COLOR CODE IT AS MENTIONED, SOME PEOPLE USE TAPE TO COVER IT UP, SOME USE PAINT OR BLACK MAGIC MARKER, OTHERS USE HEAT SHRINKABLE TUBING OR HS TAPE. SOME PEOPLE THAT DONT GIVE A **** ABOUT CODES OR CONVENTION, JUST WIRE IT UP AS IS, IF THE NEXT HOME OWNER OR ELECTRICIAN IS NOT CONSCIENCE OF SUCH CARELESS DUMMIES AND EITHER DE-ENERGIZES OR TESTS THE CIRCUIT WITH AN AC PROBE THEY MAY GET ZAPPED OR BURN THE LOAD BY WHAT THEY BELIEVE TO BE A NEUTRAL CONDUCTOR...POOR SAPS...I DO NOT ENVY THEM...IT'S KARMIC ~ ROY WHERE ARE YOU?..DON'T GO!..FORGET THOSE TROLLS, AMERICA IS ON THE JOB:) PATECUM TGITM |
Can you use white for one leg of 240V circuit?
On May 3, 5:21*pm, The Ghost in The Machine
wrote: On May 3, 5:11*pm, wrote: On Tue, 3 May 2011 12:47:39 -0700 (PDT), N8N wrote: On May 3, 11:48*am, wrote: On Tue, 3 May 2011 07:59:51 -0700 (PDT), jamesgangnc wrote: The other point is one I'm not sure about either. *Does code require a white condutor be marked black if it is used as one leg of a 240 circuit? Yes it is required to be reidentified. The only place where you didn't have to do it was in a switch leg using a cable (like Romex) but they plugged that hole in 1999. They still require that the white be used as the hot side of the switch leg, even when reidentified. That way the switched side will be the normal color at the light. (or other equipment) really? *typ. practice is to use black for hot and white for switched IME nate It is not what the code says. The white gets connected to the hot side and the black is the switched leg so when it gets to the luminaire the installer is presented with a white and a black. 200-7(C)(2)Where a cable assembly contains an insulated conductor for single-pole, 3-way or 4-way switch loops and the conductor with white or gray insulation or a marking of three continuous white stripes is used for the supply to the switch but not as a return conductor from the switch to the switched outlet. In these applications, the conductor with white or gray insulation or with three continuous white stripes shall be permanently reidentified to indicate its use by painting or other effective means at its terminations and at each location where the conductor is visible and accessible. IF IT IS SO IMPORTANT WHY DON'T THEY MAKE CODE COMPLIANT CABLES...IT'S EASY WHEN THE WORK IS PIPED OUT YOU CAN EASILY RUN IT PROPERLY, BUT WHY DONT THEY MAKE IT READY TO GO ON ROLES...ANYHOW, IF I WERE AN ELECTRICIAN I I WOULD PURCHASE THE EMPTY GREENFIELD AND WIRE IT UP TO CODE EVERY-TIME...THAT'S WHAT THEY DO IN PROFESSIONAL WORKMAN SOCIETIES. YOU PEOPLE HAVE GROWN TOO LAZY AND COMPLACENT... DAMMIT WHY DID THEY HAVE TO ASSASSINATE ME.....? FREAKING ENVIOUS EVILDOERS...JUST WAIT UNTIL JESUS RETURNS.. I'LL BE BACK!:) PATECUM TGITM- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - As much as I hate to agree with this guy I can see a case for 14/2 that has both conductors with black insulation for switch runs. Personally I like to run the power to the switch box myself and that avoids the problem of a hot white. |
Can you use white for one leg of 240V circuit?
"jamesgangnc" wrote in message ... On May 3, 5:21 pm, The Ghost in The Machine wrote: On May 3, 5:11 pm, wrote: On Tue, 3 May 2011 12:47:39 -0700 (PDT), N8N wrote: On May 3, 11:48 am, wrote: On Tue, 3 May 2011 07:59:51 -0700 (PDT), jamesgangnc wrote: The other point is one I'm not sure about either. Does code require a white condutor be marked black if it is used as one leg of a 240 circuit? Yes it is required to be reidentified. The only place where you didn't have to do it was in a switch leg using a cable (like Romex) but they plugged that hole in 1999. They still require that the white be used as the hot side of the switch leg, even when reidentified. That way the switched side will be the normal color at the light. (or other equipment) really? typ. practice is to use black for hot and white for switched IME nate It is not what the code says. The white gets connected to the hot side and the black is the switched leg so when it gets to the luminaire the installer is presented with a white and a black. 200-7(C)(2)Where a cable assembly contains an insulated conductor for single-pole, 3-way or 4-way switch loops and the conductor with white or gray insulation or a marking of three continuous white stripes is used for the supply to the switch but not as a return conductor from the switch to the switched outlet. In these applications, the conductor with white or gray insulation or with three continuous white stripes shall be permanently reidentified to indicate its use by painting or other effective means at its terminations and at each location where the conductor is visible and accessible. IF IT IS SO IMPORTANT WHY DON'T THEY MAKE CODE COMPLIANT CABLES...IT'S EASY WHEN THE WORK IS PIPED OUT YOU CAN EASILY RUN IT PROPERLY, BUT WHY DONT THEY MAKE IT READY TO GO ON ROLES...ANYHOW, IF I WERE AN ELECTRICIAN I I WOULD PURCHASE THE EMPTY GREENFIELD AND WIRE IT UP TO CODE EVERY-TIME...THAT'S WHAT THEY DO IN PROFESSIONAL WORKMAN SOCIETIES. YOU PEOPLE HAVE GROWN TOO LAZY AND COMPLACENT... DAMMIT WHY DID THEY HAVE TO ASSASSINATE ME.....? FREAKING ENVIOUS EVILDOERS...JUST WAIT UNTIL JESUS RETURNS.. I'LL BE BACK!:) PATECUM TGITM- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - As much as I hate to agree with this guy I can see a case for 14/2 that has both conductors with black insulation for switch runs. Personally I like to run the power to the switch box myself and that avoids the problem of a hot white. ** It would be impractical to have to carry a special cable just to run switch legs. You can always run a 3 wire cable and use red and black. The new Nec will be requiring a neutral at switch locations, so the problem will be eliminated anyway |
Can you use white for one leg of 240V circuit?
On May 4, 7:36*am, "RBM" wrote:
"jamesgangnc" wrote in message ... On May 3, 5:21 pm, The Ghost in The Machine wrote: On May 3, 5:11 pm, wrote: On Tue, 3 May 2011 12:47:39 -0700 (PDT), N8N wrote: On May 3, 11:48 am, wrote: On Tue, 3 May 2011 07:59:51 -0700 (PDT), jamesgangnc wrote: The other point is one I'm not sure about either. Does code require a white condutor be marked black if it is used as one leg of a 240 circuit? Yes it is required to be reidentified. The only place where you didn't have to do it was in a switch leg using a cable (like Romex) but they plugged that hole in 1999. They still require that the white be used as the hot side of the switch leg, even when reidentified. That way the switched side will be the normal color at the light. (or other equipment) really? typ. practice is to use black for hot and white for switched IME nate It is not what the code says. The white gets connected to the hot side and the black is the switched leg so when it gets to the luminaire the installer is presented with a white and a black. 200-7(C)(2)Where a cable assembly contains an insulated conductor for single-pole, 3-way or 4-way switch loops and the conductor with white or gray insulation or a marking of three continuous white stripes is used for the supply to the switch but not as a return conductor from the switch to the switched outlet. In these applications, the conductor with white or gray insulation or with three continuous white stripes shall be permanently reidentified to indicate its use by painting or other effective means at its terminations and at each location where the conductor is visible and accessible. IF IT IS SO IMPORTANT WHY DON'T THEY MAKE CODE COMPLIANT CABLES...IT'S EASY WHEN THE WORK IS PIPED OUT YOU CAN EASILY RUN IT PROPERLY, BUT WHY DONT THEY MAKE IT READY TO GO ON ROLES...ANYHOW, IF I WERE AN ELECTRICIAN I I WOULD PURCHASE THE EMPTY GREENFIELD AND WIRE IT UP TO CODE EVERY-TIME...THAT'S WHAT THEY DO IN PROFESSIONAL WORKMAN SOCIETIES. YOU PEOPLE HAVE GROWN TOO LAZY AND COMPLACENT... DAMMIT WHY DID THEY HAVE TO ASSASSINATE ME.....? FREAKING ENVIOUS EVILDOERS...JUST WAIT UNTIL JESUS RETURNS.. I'LL BE BACK!:) PATECUM TGITM- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - As much as I hate to agree with this guy I can see a case for 14/2 that has both conductors with black insulation for switch runs. Personally I like to run the power to the switch box myself and that avoids the problem of a hot white. ** It would be impractical to have to carry a special cable just to run switch legs. You can always run a 3 wire cable and use red and black. The new Nec will be requiring a neutral at switch locations, so the problem will be eliminated anyway- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I can see your point on "special" wire. Sharpie is a lot smaller. Glad to hear about the code change. Reinforces my currrent practice :-) |
Can you use white for one leg of 240V circuit?
On 5/4/2011 6:36 AM, RBM wrote:
wrote in message ... On May 3, 5:21 pm, The Ghost in The wrote: On May 3, 5:11 pm, wrote: On Tue, 3 May 2011 12:47:39 -0700 (PDT), wrote: On May 3, 11:48 am, wrote: On Tue, 3 May 2011 07:59:51 -0700 (PDT), jamesgangnc wrote: The other point is one I'm not sure about either. Does code require a white condutor be marked black if it is used as one leg of a 240 circuit? Yes it is required to be reidentified. The only place where you didn't have to do it was in a switch leg using a cable (like Romex) but they plugged that hole in 1999. They still require that the white be used as the hot side of the switch leg, even when reidentified. That way the switched side will be the normal color at the light. (or other equipment) really? typ. practice is to use black for hot and white for switched IME nate It is not what the code says. The white gets connected to the hot side and the black is the switched leg so when it gets to the luminaire the installer is presented with a white and a black. 200-7(C)(2)Where a cable assembly contains an insulated conductor for single-pole, 3-way or 4-way switch loops and the conductor with white or gray insulation or a marking of three continuous white stripes is used for the supply to the switch but not as a return conductor from the switch to the switched outlet. In these applications, the conductor with white or gray insulation or with three continuous white stripes shall be permanently reidentified to indicate its use by painting or other effective means at its terminations and at each location where the conductor is visible and accessible. IF IT IS SO IMPORTANT WHY DON'T THEY MAKE CODE COMPLIANT CABLES...IT'S EASY WHEN THE WORK IS PIPED OUT YOU CAN EASILY RUN IT PROPERLY, BUT WHY DONT THEY MAKE IT READY TO GO ON ROLES...ANYHOW, IF I WERE AN ELECTRICIAN I I WOULD PURCHASE THE EMPTY GREENFIELD AND WIRE IT UP TO CODE EVERY-TIME...THAT'S WHAT THEY DO IN PROFESSIONAL WORKMAN SOCIETIES. YOU PEOPLE HAVE GROWN TOO LAZY AND COMPLACENT... DAMMIT WHY DID THEY HAVE TO ASSASSINATE ME.....? FREAKING ENVIOUS EVILDOERS...JUST WAIT UNTIL JESUS RETURNS.. I'LL BE BACK!:) PATECUM TGITM- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - As much as I hate to agree with this guy I can see a case for 14/2 that has both conductors with black insulation for switch runs. Personally I like to run the power to the switch box myself and that avoids the problem of a hot white. ** It would be impractical to have to carry a special cable just to run switch legs. You can always run a 3 wire cable and use red and black. The new Nec will be requiring a neutral at switch locations, so the problem will be eliminated anyway Having a white neutral conductor in a 14-3 for switch legs makes it easy to install timers, lighted indicators and all sorts of controls for energy management in the switch boxes. I'm sure there are going to be a lot of energy management mandates showing up in building codes and specs for them in The NEC in the coming months and years if there are not already rules and laws in places like Californiastan. ^_^ TDD |
Can you use white for one leg of 240V circuit?
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Can you use white for one leg of 240V circuit?
On 5/3/2011 9:59 AM, jamesgangnc wrote:
I'm still having trouble believing that 10/2 w ground ws not code accepted at some point in the past. Just because I have seen so many of them. But I don't have copies of old code laying around to prove or disprove. It was never acceptable under the NEC. Whoever sets the electrical rules where you are may have modified NEC, or inspectors may have used their discretion to allow it. And we all agree that any chanes require it be brought up to 10/3 w ground. Depends on what "changes" you are talking about. Existing wiring with SE cable (or an insulated ground wire) is explicitly grandfathered in the NEC. -- bud-- |
Can you use white for one leg of 240V circuit?
On Wed, 4 May 2011 04:30:52 -0700 (PDT), jamesgangnc
wrote: As much as I hate to agree with this guy I can see a case for 14/2 that has both conductors with black insulation for switch runs. Personally I like to run the power to the switch box myself and that avoids the problem of a hot white. Running the power to the switch makes a less flexible condition. Places like bedrooms (although they are coming less and less with an overhead light) and living areas where you might want to add a ceiling fan would not have constant power at the light box. |
Can you use white for one leg of 240V circuit?
On Wed, 4 May 2011 07:36:41 -0400, "RBM" wrote:
** It would be impractical to have to carry a special cable just to run switch legs. You can always run a 3 wire cable and use red and black. The new Nec will be requiring a neutral at switch locations, so the problem will be eliminated anyway That makes the most flexible condition. |
Can you use white for one leg of 240V circuit?
On May 4, 7:36*am, "RBM" wrote:
"jamesgangnc" wrote in message ... On May 3, 5:21 pm, The Ghost in The Machine wrote: On May 3, 5:11 pm, wrote: On Tue, 3 May 2011 12:47:39 -0700 (PDT), N8N wrote: On May 3, 11:48 am, wrote: On Tue, 3 May 2011 07:59:51 -0700 (PDT), jamesgangnc wrote: The other point is one I'm not sure about either. Does code require a white condutor be marked black if it is used as one leg of a 240 circuit? Yes it is required to be reidentified. The only place where you didn't have to do it was in a switch leg using a cable (like Romex) but they plugged that hole in 1999. They still require that the white be used as the hot side of the switch leg, even when reidentified. That way the switched side will be the normal color at the light. (or other equipment) really? typ. practice is to use black for hot and white for switched IME nate It is not what the code says. The white gets connected to the hot side and the black is the switched leg so when it gets to the luminaire the installer is presented with a white and a black. 200-7(C)(2)Where a cable assembly contains an insulated conductor for single-pole, 3-way or 4-way switch loops and the conductor with white or gray insulation or a marking of three continuous white stripes is used for the supply to the switch but not as a return conductor from the switch to the switched outlet. In these applications, the conductor with white or gray insulation or with three continuous white stripes shall be permanently reidentified to indicate its use by painting or other effective means at its terminations and at each location where the conductor is visible and accessible. IF IT IS SO IMPORTANT WHY DON'T THEY MAKE CODE COMPLIANT CABLES...IT'S EASY WHEN THE WORK IS PIPED OUT YOU CAN EASILY RUN IT PROPERLY, BUT WHY DONT THEY MAKE IT READY TO GO ON ROLES...ANYHOW, IF I WERE AN ELECTRICIAN I I WOULD PURCHASE THE EMPTY GREENFIELD AND WIRE IT UP TO CODE EVERY-TIME...THAT'S WHAT THEY DO IN PROFESSIONAL WORKMAN SOCIETIES. YOU PEOPLE HAVE GROWN TOO LAZY AND COMPLACENT... DAMMIT WHY DID THEY HAVE TO ASSASSINATE ME.....? FREAKING ENVIOUS EVILDOERS...JUST WAIT UNTIL JESUS RETURNS.. I'LL BE BACK!:) PATECUM TGITM- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - As much as I hate to agree with this guy I can see a case for 14/2 that has both conductors with black insulation for switch runs. Personally I like to run the power to the switch box myself and that avoids the problem of a hot white. ** It would be impractical to have to carry a special cable just to run switch legs. You can always run a 3 wire cable and use red and black. The new Nec will be requiring a neutral at switch locations, so the problem will be eliminated anyway USING EMPTY GREENFIELD [ARMORED FLEXIBLE CONDUIT] AND FILLING IT ACCORDINGLY IS NOT ONLY PRACTICAL BUT OPEN TO COMPLIANCE OF ANY CODE VARIATIONS. DON'T **** ME OFF RIBCAGE ;/ TGITM |
Can you use white for one leg of 240V circuit?
On May 4, 7:46*am, The Daring Dufas
wrote: On 5/4/2011 6:36 AM, RBM wrote: *wrote in message ... On May 3, 5:21 pm, The Ghost in The wrote: On May 3, 5:11 pm, wrote: On Tue, 3 May 2011 12:47:39 -0700 (PDT), wrote: On May 3, 11:48 am, wrote: On Tue, 3 May 2011 07:59:51 -0700 (PDT), jamesgangnc *wrote: The other point is one I'm not sure about either. Does code require a white condutor be marked black if it is used as one leg of a 240 circuit? Yes it is required to be reidentified. The only place where you didn't have to do it was in a switch leg using a cable (like Romex) but they plugged that hole in 1999. They still require that the white be used as the hot side of the switch leg, even when reidentified. That way the switched side will be the normal color at the light. (or other equipment) really? typ. practice is to use black for hot and white for switched IME nate It is not what the code says. The white gets connected to the hot side and the black is the switched leg so when it gets to the luminaire the installer is presented with a white and a black. 200-7(C)(2)Where a cable assembly contains an insulated conductor for single-pole, 3-way or 4-way switch loops and the conductor with white or gray insulation or a marking of three continuous white stripes is used for the supply to the switch but not as a return conductor from the switch to the switched outlet. In these applications, the conductor with white or gray insulation or with three continuous white stripes shall be permanently reidentified to indicate its use by painting or other effective means at its terminations and at each location where the conductor is visible and accessible. IF IT IS SO IMPORTANT WHY DON'T THEY MAKE CODE COMPLIANT CABLES...IT'S EASY WHEN THE WORK IS PIPED OUT YOU CAN EASILY RUN IT PROPERLY, BUT WHY DONT THEY MAKE IT READY TO GO ON ROLES...ANYHOW, IF I WERE AN ELECTRICIAN I I WOULD PURCHASE THE EMPTY GREENFIELD AND WIRE IT UP TO CODE EVERY-TIME...THAT'S WHAT THEY DO IN PROFESSIONAL WORKMAN SOCIETIES. YOU PEOPLE HAVE GROWN TOO LAZY AND COMPLACENT... DAMMIT WHY DID THEY HAVE TO ASSASSINATE ME.....? FREAKING ENVIOUS EVILDOERS...JUST WAIT UNTIL JESUS RETURNS.. I'LL BE BACK!:) PATECUM TGITM- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - As much as I hate to agree with this guy I can see a case for 14/2 that has both conductors with black insulation for switch runs. Personally I like to run the power to the switch box myself and that avoids the problem of a hot white. ** It would be impractical to have to carry a special cable just to run switch legs. You can always run a 3 wire cable and use red and black. The new Nec will be requiring a neutral at switch locations, so the problem will be eliminated anyway Having a white neutral conductor in a 14-3 for switch legs makes it easy to install timers, lighted indicators and all sorts of controls for energy management in the switch boxes. I'm sure there are going to be a lot of energy management mandates showing up in building codes and specs for them in The NEC in the coming months and years if there are not already rules and laws in places like Californiastan. ^_^ TDD THAT'S TRUE THOUGH, IT LEAVES ROOM FOR OTHER APPLICATIONS AT THE SW LOCATION. BUT I HATE TO HAVE UNNECESSARY DEAD END WIRES IN A BOX WITHOUT PRIOR PLANIFICATION, CHANCES ARE THEY WILL NEVER BE USED AT ALL... USING GREENFIELD IS THE WAY TO GO, YOU CAN FILL IT ANYWAY YOU NEED TO. TGITM |
Can you use white for one leg of 240V circuit?
On May 4, 11:14*am, Metspitzer wrote:
On Wed, 4 May 2011 07:36:41 -0400, "RBM" wrote: ** It would be impractical to have to carry a special cable just to run switch legs. You can always run a 3 wire cable and use red and black. The new Nec will be requiring a neutral at switch locations, so the problem will be eliminated anyway That makes the most flexible condition. WRONG......RECAP.....A FIXED FILLED CABLE IS NOT FLEXIBLE AT ALL. TGITM |
Can you use white for one leg of 240V circuit?
On 05/04/2011 06:57 PM, The Ghost in The Machine wrote:
On May 4, 7:46 am, The Daring wrote: On 5/4/2011 6:36 AM, RBM wrote: wrote in message ... On May 3, 5:21 pm, The Ghost in The wrote: On May 3, 5:11 pm, wrote: On Tue, 3 May 2011 12:47:39 -0700 (PDT), wrote: On May 3, 11:48 am, wrote: On Tue, 3 May 2011 07:59:51 -0700 (PDT), jamesgangnc wrote: The other point is one I'm not sure about either. Does code require a white condutor be marked black if it is used as one leg of a 240 circuit? Yes it is required to be reidentified. The only place where you didn't have to do it was in a switch leg using a cable (like Romex) but they plugged that hole in 1999. They still require that the white be used as the hot side of the switch leg, even when reidentified. That way the switched side will be the normal color at the light. (or other equipment) really? typ. practice is to use black for hot and white for switched IME nate It is not what the code says. The white gets connected to the hot side and the black is the switched leg so when it gets to the luminaire the installer is presented with a white and a black. 200-7(C)(2)Where a cable assembly contains an insulated conductor for single-pole, 3-way or 4-way switch loops and the conductor with white or gray insulation or a marking of three continuous white stripes is used for the supply to the switch but not as a return conductor from the switch to the switched outlet. In these applications, the conductor with white or gray insulation or with three continuous white stripes shall be permanently reidentified to indicate its use by painting or other effective means at its terminations and at each location where the conductor is visible and accessible. IF IT IS SO IMPORTANT WHY DON'T THEY MAKE CODE COMPLIANT CABLES...IT'S EASY WHEN THE WORK IS PIPED OUT YOU CAN EASILY RUN IT PROPERLY, BUT WHY DONT THEY MAKE IT READY TO GO ON ROLES...ANYHOW, IF I WERE AN ELECTRICIAN I I WOULD PURCHASE THE EMPTY GREENFIELD AND WIRE IT UP TO CODE EVERY-TIME...THAT'S WHAT THEY DO IN PROFESSIONAL WORKMAN SOCIETIES. YOU PEOPLE HAVE GROWN TOO LAZY AND COMPLACENT... DAMMIT WHY DID THEY HAVE TO ASSASSINATE ME.....? FREAKING ENVIOUS EVILDOERS...JUST WAIT UNTIL JESUS RETURNS.. I'LL BE BACK!:) PATECUM TGITM- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - As much as I hate to agree with this guy I can see a case for 14/2 that has both conductors with black insulation for switch runs. Personally I like to run the power to the switch box myself and that avoids the problem of a hot white. ** It would be impractical to have to carry a special cable just to run switch legs. You can always run a 3 wire cable and use red and black. The new Nec will be requiring a neutral at switch locations, so the problem will be eliminated anyway Having a white neutral conductor in a 14-3 for switch legs makes it easy to install timers, lighted indicators and all sorts of controls for energy management in the switch boxes. I'm sure there are going to be a lot of energy management mandates showing up in building codes and specs for them in The NEC in the coming months and years if there are not already rules and laws in places like Californiastan. ^_^ TDD THAT'S TRUE THOUGH, IT LEAVES ROOM FOR OTHER APPLICATIONS AT THE SW LOCATION. BUT I HATE TO HAVE UNNECESSARY DEAD END WIRES IN A BOX WITHOUT PRIOR PLANIFICATION, CHANCES ARE THEY WILL NEVER BE USED AT ALL... USING GREENFIELD IS THE WAY TO GO, YOU CAN FILL IT ANYWAY YOU NEED TO. TGITM My understanding is that the white must be connected to neutral so it won't be "dead" although it may be unused (now it will be "grounded" but not "grounding," although if I understand correctly it won't be allowed to be repurposed for anything else.) I actually agree Greenfield but it's impractical sometimes in old work, and a LOT more expensive than Romex. One place I could see it being used and not being much more expensive than the alternatives however is bathrooms what with all sorts of combination light/fan/heater things in the ceiling. nate -- replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel |
Can you use white for one leg of 240V circuit?
On May 4, 7:31*pm, Nate Nagel wrote:
On 05/04/2011 06:57 PM, The Ghost in The Machine wrote: On May 4, 7:46 am, The Daring wrote: On 5/4/2011 6:36 AM, RBM wrote: * *wrote in message .... On May 3, 5:21 pm, The Ghost in The wrote: On May 3, 5:11 pm, wrote: On Tue, 3 May 2011 12:47:39 -0700 (PDT), wrote: On May 3, 11:48 am, wrote: On Tue, 3 May 2011 07:59:51 -0700 (PDT), jamesgangnc * *wrote: The other point is one I'm not sure about either. Does code require a white condutor be marked black if it is used as one leg of a 240 circuit? Yes it is required to be reidentified. The only place where you didn't have to do it was in a switch leg using a cable (like Romex) but they plugged that hole in 1999. They still require that the white be used as the hot side of the switch leg, even when reidentified. That way the switched side will be the normal color at the light. (or other equipment) really? typ. practice is to use black for hot and white for switched IME nate It is not what the code says. The white gets connected to the hot side and the black is the switched leg so when it gets to the luminaire the installer is presented with a white and a black. 200-7(C)(2)Where a cable assembly contains an insulated conductor for single-pole, 3-way or 4-way switch loops and the conductor with white or gray insulation or a marking of three continuous white stripes is used for the supply to the switch but not as a return conductor from the switch to the switched outlet. In these applications, the conductor with white or gray insulation or with three continuous white stripes shall be permanently reidentified to indicate its use by painting or other effective means at its terminations and at each location where the conductor is visible and accessible. IF IT IS SO IMPORTANT WHY DON'T THEY MAKE CODE COMPLIANT CABLES...IT'S EASY WHEN THE WORK IS PIPED OUT YOU CAN EASILY RUN IT PROPERLY, BUT WHY DONT THEY MAKE IT READY TO GO ON ROLES...ANYHOW, IF I WERE AN ELECTRICIAN I I WOULD PURCHASE THE EMPTY GREENFIELD AND WIRE IT UP TO CODE EVERY-TIME...THAT'S WHAT THEY DO IN PROFESSIONAL WORKMAN SOCIETIES. YOU PEOPLE HAVE GROWN TOO LAZY AND COMPLACENT... DAMMIT WHY DID THEY HAVE TO ASSASSINATE ME.....? FREAKING ENVIOUS EVILDOERS...JUST WAIT UNTIL JESUS RETURNS.. I'LL BE BACK!:) PATECUM TGITM- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - As much as I hate to agree with this guy I can see a case for 14/2 that has both conductors with black insulation for switch runs. Personally I like to run the power to the switch box myself and that avoids the problem of a hot white. ** It would be impractical to have to carry a special cable just to run switch legs. You can always run a 3 wire cable and use red and black. The new Nec will be requiring a neutral at switch locations, so the problem will be eliminated anyway Having a white neutral conductor in a 14-3 for switch legs makes it easy to install timers, lighted indicators and all sorts of controls for energy management in the switch boxes. I'm sure there are going to be a lot of energy management mandates showing up in building codes and specs for them in The NEC in the coming months and years if there are not already rules and laws in places like Californiastan. ^_^ TDD THAT'S TRUE THOUGH, IT LEAVES ROOM FOR OTHER APPLICATIONS AT THE SW LOCATION. BUT I HATE TO HAVE UNNECESSARY DEAD END WIRES IN A BOX WITHOUT PRIOR PLANIFICATION, CHANCES ARE THEY WILL NEVER BE USED AT ALL... USING GREENFIELD IS THE WAY TO GO, YOU CAN FILL IT ANYWAY YOU NEED TO. TGITM My understanding is that the white must be connected to neutral so it won't be "dead" although it may be unused (now it will be "grounded" but not "grounding," although if I understand correctly it won't be allowed to be repurposed for anything else.) *I actually agree Greenfield but it's impractical sometimes in old work, and a LOT more expensive than Romex. *One place I could see it being used and not being much more expensive than the alternatives however is bathrooms what with all sorts of combination light/fan/heater things in the ceiling. nate -- replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.http://members.cox.net/njnagel JUST FOR ARGUEMENTS SAKE - A NEUTRAL WILL CARRY A CURRENT WITH RESPECT TO GROUND WHEN COMPLETING AN ADJACENT CIRCUIT....I WOULDNT LEAVE A COVERED NEUTRAL LOOSE IN A BOX JUST BECAUSE IT MAY BE USEFUL IN SOME FANTASY FUTURE. IF PUSH COMES TO SHOVE IT SHOULD BE JUST LEFT UNATTACHED, UNSPLICED & CURLED UP ON THE SIDE....ANY GOOD COULD BECOME OF IT IF NEEDED...BUT NEVER LEAVE A CURRENT CARRYING CONDUCTOR LAYING IN THERE JUST BECAUSE IT MAY COME IN HANDY IN THE FUTURE...YOU ATTACH IT WHEN & IF IT IS NEEDED.......NATE. TGITM |
Can you use white for one leg of 240V circuit?
On 5/4/2011 5:57 PM, The Ghost in The Machine wrote:
On May 4, 7:46 am, The Daring wrote: On 5/4/2011 6:36 AM, RBM wrote: wrote in message ... On May 3, 5:21 pm, The Ghost in The wrote: On May 3, 5:11 pm, wrote: On Tue, 3 May 2011 12:47:39 -0700 (PDT), wrote: On May 3, 11:48 am, wrote: On Tue, 3 May 2011 07:59:51 -0700 (PDT), jamesgangnc wrote: The other point is one I'm not sure about either. Does code require a white condutor be marked black if it is used as one leg of a 240 circuit? Yes it is required to be reidentified. The only place where you didn't have to do it was in a switch leg using a cable (like Romex) but they plugged that hole in 1999. They still require that the white be used as the hot side of the switch leg, even when reidentified. That way the switched side will be the normal color at the light. (or other equipment) really? typ. practice is to use black for hot and white for switched IME nate It is not what the code says. The white gets connected to the hot side and the black is the switched leg so when it gets to the luminaire the installer is presented with a white and a black. 200-7(C)(2)Where a cable assembly contains an insulated conductor for single-pole, 3-way or 4-way switch loops and the conductor with white or gray insulation or a marking of three continuous white stripes is used for the supply to the switch but not as a return conductor from the switch to the switched outlet. In these applications, the conductor with white or gray insulation or with three continuous white stripes shall be permanently reidentified to indicate its use by painting or other effective means at its terminations and at each location where the conductor is visible and accessible. IF IT IS SO IMPORTANT WHY DON'T THEY MAKE CODE COMPLIANT CABLES...IT'S EASY WHEN THE WORK IS PIPED OUT YOU CAN EASILY RUN IT PROPERLY, BUT WHY DONT THEY MAKE IT READY TO GO ON ROLES...ANYHOW, IF I WERE AN ELECTRICIAN I I WOULD PURCHASE THE EMPTY GREENFIELD AND WIRE IT UP TO CODE EVERY-TIME...THAT'S WHAT THEY DO IN PROFESSIONAL WORKMAN SOCIETIES. YOU PEOPLE HAVE GROWN TOO LAZY AND COMPLACENT... DAMMIT WHY DID THEY HAVE TO ASSASSINATE ME.....? FREAKING ENVIOUS EVILDOERS...JUST WAIT UNTIL JESUS RETURNS.. I'LL BE BACK!:) PATECUM TGITM- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - As much as I hate to agree with this guy I can see a case for 14/2 that has both conductors with black insulation for switch runs. Personally I like to run the power to the switch box myself and that avoids the problem of a hot white. ** It would be impractical to have to carry a special cable just to run switch legs. You can always run a 3 wire cable and use red and black. The new Nec will be requiring a neutral at switch locations, so the problem will be eliminated anyway Having a white neutral conductor in a 14-3 for switch legs makes it easy to install timers, lighted indicators and all sorts of controls for energy management in the switch boxes. I'm sure there are going to be a lot of energy management mandates showing up in building codes and specs for them in The NEC in the coming months and years if there are not already rules and laws in places like Californiastan. ^_^ TDD THAT'S TRUE THOUGH, IT LEAVES ROOM FOR OTHER APPLICATIONS AT THE SW LOCATION. BUT I HATE TO HAVE UNNECESSARY DEAD END WIRES IN A BOX WITHOUT PRIOR PLANIFICATION, CHANCES ARE THEY WILL NEVER BE USED AT ALL... USING GREENFIELD IS THE WAY TO GO, YOU CAN FILL IT ANYWAY YOU NEED TO. TGITM Having worked for years as a commercial/industrial electrician, I always left a pull string in every conduit. If I ever built a house, it would be wired like a commercial building with EMT conduit. :-) TDD TDD |
Can you use white for one leg of 240V circuit?
On May 4, 8:11*pm, The Daring Dufas
wrote: On 5/4/2011 5:57 PM, The Ghost in The Machine wrote: On May 4, 7:46 am, The Daring wrote: On 5/4/2011 6:36 AM, RBM wrote: * *wrote in message .... On May 3, 5:21 pm, The Ghost in The wrote: On May 3, 5:11 pm, wrote: On Tue, 3 May 2011 12:47:39 -0700 (PDT), wrote: On May 3, 11:48 am, wrote: On Tue, 3 May 2011 07:59:51 -0700 (PDT), jamesgangnc * *wrote: The other point is one I'm not sure about either. Does code require a white condutor be marked black if it is used as one leg of a 240 circuit? Yes it is required to be reidentified. The only place where you didn't have to do it was in a switch leg using a cable (like Romex) but they plugged that hole in 1999. They still require that the white be used as the hot side of the switch leg, even when reidentified. That way the switched side will be the normal color at the light. (or other equipment) really? typ. practice is to use black for hot and white for switched IME nate It is not what the code says. The white gets connected to the hot side and the black is the switched leg so when it gets to the luminaire the installer is presented with a white and a black. 200-7(C)(2)Where a cable assembly contains an insulated conductor for single-pole, 3-way or 4-way switch loops and the conductor with white or gray insulation or a marking of three continuous white stripes is used for the supply to the switch but not as a return conductor from the switch to the switched outlet. In these applications, the conductor with white or gray insulation or with three continuous white stripes shall be permanently reidentified to indicate its use by painting or other effective means at its terminations and at each location where the conductor is visible and accessible. IF IT IS SO IMPORTANT WHY DON'T THEY MAKE CODE COMPLIANT CABLES...IT'S EASY WHEN THE WORK IS PIPED OUT YOU CAN EASILY RUN IT PROPERLY, BUT WHY DONT THEY MAKE IT READY TO GO ON ROLES...ANYHOW, IF I WERE AN ELECTRICIAN I I WOULD PURCHASE THE EMPTY GREENFIELD AND WIRE IT UP TO CODE EVERY-TIME...THAT'S WHAT THEY DO IN PROFESSIONAL WORKMAN SOCIETIES. YOU PEOPLE HAVE GROWN TOO LAZY AND COMPLACENT... DAMMIT WHY DID THEY HAVE TO ASSASSINATE ME.....? FREAKING ENVIOUS EVILDOERS...JUST WAIT UNTIL JESUS RETURNS.. I'LL BE BACK!:) PATECUM TGITM- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - As much as I hate to agree with this guy I can see a case for 14/2 that has both conductors with black insulation for switch runs. Personally I like to run the power to the switch box myself and that avoids the problem of a hot white. ** It would be impractical to have to carry a special cable just to run switch legs. You can always run a 3 wire cable and use red and black. The new Nec will be requiring a neutral at switch locations, so the problem will be eliminated anyway Having a white neutral conductor in a 14-3 for switch legs makes it easy to install timers, lighted indicators and all sorts of controls for energy management in the switch boxes. I'm sure there are going to be a lot of energy management mandates showing up in building codes and specs for them in The NEC in the coming months and years if there are not already rules and laws in places like Californiastan. ^_^ TDD THAT'S TRUE THOUGH, IT LEAVES ROOM FOR OTHER APPLICATIONS AT THE SW LOCATION. BUT I HATE TO HAVE UNNECESSARY DEAD END WIRES IN A BOX WITHOUT PRIOR PLANIFICATION, CHANCES ARE THEY WILL NEVER BE USED AT ALL... USING GREENFIELD IS THE WAY TO GO, YOU CAN FILL IT ANYWAY YOU NEED TO. TGITM Having worked for years as a commercial/industrial electrician, I always left a pull string in every conduit. If I ever built a house, it would be wired like a commercial building with EMT conduit. :-) TDD WAY TO GO. TGITM |
Can you use white for one leg of 240V circuit?
"Nate Nagel" wrote in message My understanding is that the white must be connected to neutral so it won't be "dead" although it may be unused (now it will be "grounded" but not "grounding," although if I understand correctly it won't be allowed to be repurposed for anything else.) I actually agree Greenfield but it's impractical sometimes in old work, and a LOT more expensive than Romex. One place I could see it being used and not being much more expensive than the alternatives however is bathrooms what with all sorts of combination light/fan/heater things in the ceiling. nate replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel **The new code will require a neutral at switch locations, to be used (or not) as a neutral, for timers or electronic switching devices. In residential wood stud applications Greenfield would be too expensive, not only in cost of materials, but labor costs would be increased. You'd have to drill 1" holes in the framing, and use large boxes, metal only, with 1/2" knockouts. In addition to the circuit conductors, you have to pull a grounding conductor. Just use cable |
Can you use white for one leg of 240V circuit?
On May 4, 9:53*pm, "RBM" wrote:
"Nate Nagel" wrote in message My understanding is that the white must be connected to neutral so it won't be "dead" although it may be unused (now it will be "grounded" but not "grounding," although if I understand correctly it won't be allowed to be repurposed for anything else.) *I actually agree Greenfield but it's impractical sometimes in old work, and a LOT more expensive than Romex. *One place I could see it being used and not being much more expensive than the alternatives however is bathrooms what with all sorts of combination light/fan/heater things in the ceiling. nate replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel **The new code will require a neutral at switch locations, to be used (or not) as a neutral, for timers or electronic switching devices. In residential wood stud applications Greenfield would be too expensive, not only in cost of materials, but labor costs would be increased. You'd have to drill 1" holes in the framing, and use large boxes, metal only, with 1/2" knockouts. In addition to the circuit conductors, you have to pull a grounding conductor. Just use cable THAT NEW IMAGINARY CODE OF THE FUTURE WONT COME TO PASS AT ALL.....YOU CAN ALSO PULL THE WIRES OUT OF REGULAR BX AND REFILL THEM TO CODE......THAT OR JUST USE THE 10/2 12/2 or 14/2 TOU HAVE AND COLOR CODE IT.......GREENFIELD IS THE BEST WAY....IF YOUR NOT A CHEAPY HOMEOWNER. BUT IF YOURE A STICKLER FOR PERFECTION...GO WITH THE GREENFIELD..IT WIRES UP FUTURE CIRCUITS JUST FINE...LEAVE A PULL STRING IT IT LIKE SUGGESTED AND TRASH THE STINGY EL CHEAPO BUDGET IDEA...THE INSPECTOR WILL RECOMMEND YOUR WORK TO EVERYONE...EITHER WAY YOU'LL HAVE THE ULTIMATE NEC COMPLIANT RESIDENCE. TGITM |
Can you use white for one leg of 240V circuit?
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Can you use white for one leg of 240V circuit?
On May 5, 4:12*pm, The Daring Dufas
wrote: On 5/5/2011 12:22 PM, wrote: On Wed, 04 May 2011 19:11:12 -0500, The Daring Dufas *wrote: Having worked for years as a commercial/industrial electrician, I always left a pull string in every conduit. If I ever built a house, it would be wired like a commercial building with EMT conduit. :-) In residential, smurf tube (ENT) is a good alternative to EMT. It gives you the flexibility without the hassle. I've used it with much success in the applications where I wanted it but I'll want the EMT in my place because of the inherent EM shielding of the metal conduit. I play with a lot of signal and DATA cabling so I want to prevent as much interference as I can. I can't imagine the thousands of feet of conduit and wire I've run. It gets away from you because of the sheer volume. In the late 1980's I was installing a Halon fire suppression and alarm system in the mission control center for a part of The SDI Program and me and the crew I was working with, pulled 20,000 feet of 14 THHN stranded into different 3/4 EMT runs in one day. That was just a small part of the system and the stuff adds up. When you run a lot of EMT you can pretty much look at an area and know how you're going install your conduit runs because you'll do the job in your head first. Of course when I win the giant lottery and I get a gazillion dollars to build my dream home, I'll go with wide metal studs and steel frame which makes conduit easier to install anyway. ^_^ TDD yuck. I hate steel studs, unless they're installed at 12" OC or less. Of course, I like plaster walls, too. Nothing annoys me more than slamming a door and having every bloody wall in the house shake. just makes the place feel cheap, and is widespread among new construction McMansions... (even if they use wood 2x4s they often install them 24" OC instead of 16" like a good carpenter would. Hate hate hate hate hate hate it.) nate |
Can you use white for one leg of 240V circuit?
On 5/5/2011 3:39 PM, N8N wrote:
On May 5, 4:12 pm, The Daring wrote: On 5/5/2011 12:22 PM, wrote: On Wed, 04 May 2011 19:11:12 -0500, The Daring Dufas wrote: Having worked for years as a commercial/industrial electrician, I always left a pull string in every conduit. If I ever built a house, it would be wired like a commercial building with EMT conduit. :-) In residential, smurf tube (ENT) is a good alternative to EMT. It gives you the flexibility without the hassle. I've used it with much success in the applications where I wanted it but I'll want the EMT in my place because of the inherent EM shielding of the metal conduit. I play with a lot of signal and DATA cabling so I want to prevent as much interference as I can. I can't imagine the thousands of feet of conduit and wire I've run. It gets away from you because of the sheer volume. In the late 1980's I was installing a Halon fire suppression and alarm system in the mission control center for a part of The SDI Program and me and the crew I was working with, pulled 20,000 feet of 14 THHN stranded into different 3/4 EMT runs in one day. That was just a small part of the system and the stuff adds up. When you run a lot of EMT you can pretty much look at an area and know how you're going install your conduit runs because you'll do the job in your head first. Of course when I win the giant lottery and I get a gazillion dollars to build my dream home, I'll go with wide metal studs and steel frame which makes conduit easier to install anyway. ^_^ TDD yuck. I hate steel studs, unless they're installed at 12" OC or less. Of course, I like plaster walls, too. Nothing annoys me more than slamming a door and having every bloody wall in the house shake. just makes the place feel cheap, and is widespread among new construction McMansions... (even if they use wood 2x4s they often install them 24" OC instead of 16" like a good carpenter would. Hate hate hate hate hate hate it.) nate Yea but, my walls would be sound damped which would add to their mass which would prevent rattling. No half way measures for a gazillionaire geek. ^_^ TDD |
Can you use white for one leg of 240V circuit?
"The Daring Dufas" wrote in message
... On 5/5/2011 3:39 PM, N8N wrote: On May 5, 4:12 pm, The Daring wrote: On 5/5/2011 12:22 PM, wrote: On Wed, 04 May 2011 19:11:12 -0500, The Daring Dufas wrote: Having worked for years as a commercial/industrial electrician, I always left a pull string in every conduit. If I ever built a house, it would be wired like a commercial building with EMT conduit. :-) In residential, smurf tube (ENT) is a good alternative to EMT. It gives you the flexibility without the hassle. I've used it with much success in the applications where I wanted it but I'll want the EMT in my place because of the inherent EM shielding of the metal conduit. I play with a lot of signal and DATA cabling so I want to prevent as much interference as I can. I can't imagine the thousands of feet of conduit and wire I've run. It gets away from you because of the sheer volume. In the late 1980's I was installing a Halon fire suppression and alarm system in the mission control center for a part of The SDI Program and me and the crew I was working with, pulled 20,000 feet of 14 THHN stranded into different 3/4 EMT runs in one day. That was just a small part of the system and the stuff adds up. When you run a lot of EMT you can pretty much look at an area and know how you're going install your conduit runs because you'll do the job in your head first. Of course when I win the giant lottery and I get a gazillion dollars to build my dream home, I'll go with wide metal studs and steel frame which makes conduit easier to install anyway. ^_^ TDD yuck. I hate steel studs, unless they're installed at 12" OC or less. Of course, I like plaster walls, too. Nothing annoys me more than slamming a door and having every bloody wall in the house shake. just makes the place feel cheap, and is widespread among new construction McMansions... (even if they use wood 2x4s they often install them 24" OC instead of 16" like a good carpenter would. Hate hate hate hate hate hate it.) nate Yea but, my walls would be sound damped which would add to their mass which would prevent rattling. No half way measures for a gazillionaire geek. ^_^ My walls would be hollow and wide enough to walk through. I would install the obligatory portraits with the eye holes cut out and I'd dig an escape tunnel into the woods behind the house that had rails and a jet propelled exit sled. And I'd have a moat and drawbridge with a secret trap door to send Saturday morning door-knocking, save your soul religious types straight to a moat baptism while fighting off the alligators and piranhas in the water. That way, I could get to look down at them and say: "You disagreed with something that ate you." -- Bobby G. |
Can you use white for one leg of 240V circuit?
On 5/6/2011 12:46 AM, Robert Green wrote:
"The Daring wrote in message ... On 5/5/2011 3:39 PM, N8N wrote: On May 5, 4:12 pm, The Daring wrote: On 5/5/2011 12:22 PM, wrote: On Wed, 04 May 2011 19:11:12 -0500, The Daring Dufas wrote: Having worked for years as a commercial/industrial electrician, I always left a pull string in every conduit. If I ever built a house, it would be wired like a commercial building with EMT conduit. :-) In residential, smurf tube (ENT) is a good alternative to EMT. It gives you the flexibility without the hassle. I've used it with much success in the applications where I wanted it but I'll want the EMT in my place because of the inherent EM shielding of the metal conduit. I play with a lot of signal and DATA cabling so I want to prevent as much interference as I can. I can't imagine the thousands of feet of conduit and wire I've run. It gets away from you because of the sheer volume. In the late 1980's I was installing a Halon fire suppression and alarm system in the mission control center for a part of The SDI Program and me and the crew I was working with, pulled 20,000 feet of 14 THHN stranded into different 3/4 EMT runs in one day. That was just a small part of the system and the stuff adds up. When you run a lot of EMT you can pretty much look at an area and know how you're going install your conduit runs because you'll do the job in your head first. Of course when I win the giant lottery and I get a gazillion dollars to build my dream home, I'll go with wide metal studs and steel frame which makes conduit easier to install anyway. ^_^ TDD yuck. I hate steel studs, unless they're installed at 12" OC or less. Of course, I like plaster walls, too. Nothing annoys me more than slamming a door and having every bloody wall in the house shake. just makes the place feel cheap, and is widespread among new construction McMansions... (even if they use wood 2x4s they often install them 24" OC instead of 16" like a good carpenter would. Hate hate hate hate hate hate it.) nate Yea but, my walls would be sound damped which would add to their mass which would prevent rattling. No half way measures for a gazillionaire geek. ^_^ My walls would be hollow and wide enough to walk through. I would install the obligatory portraits with the eye holes cut out and I'd dig an escape tunnel into the woods behind the house that had rails and a jet propelled exit sled. And I'd have a moat and drawbridge with a secret trap door to send Saturday morning door-knocking, save your soul religious types straight to a moat baptism while fighting off the alligators and piranhas in the water. That way, I could get to look down at them and say: "You disagreed with something that ate you." -- Bobby G. I used to have fun frightening those Jesus freaks when they came to the door by claiming to be in the middle of Satanic ritual sacrifice of a nubile virgin. If I saw them in the area going from house to house and had the time, I would call some friends to get in on it and setup a whole faux Satanic ritual to confront the proselytizers with. I had a couple of gal pals who did the greatest evil diva act which would send many of the door knockers running in terror. It was such fun back then. ^_^ TDD |
Can you use white for one leg of 240V circuit?
On May 4, 9:53*pm, "RBM" wrote:
"Nate Nagel" wrote in message My understanding is that the white must be connected to neutral so it won't be "dead" although it may be unused (now it will be "grounded" but not "grounding," although if I understand correctly it won't be allowed to be repurposed for anything else.) *I actually agree Greenfield but it's impractical sometimes in old work, and a LOT more expensive than Romex. *One place I could see it being used and not being much more expensive than the alternatives however is bathrooms what with all sorts of combination light/fan/heater things in the ceiling. nate replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel **The new code will require a neutral at switch locations, to be used (or not) as a neutral, for timers or electronic switching devices. In residential wood stud applications Greenfield would be too expensive, not only in cost of materials, but labor costs would be increased. You'd have to drill 1" holes in the framing, and use large boxes, metal only, with 1/2" knockouts. In addition to the circuit conductors, you have to pull a grounding conductor. Just use cable I agree, labor costs would be through the roof. If you were building your own maybe. The materials would still be more but not as ridiculously higher as the labor would be. The benefit is not enough to make me consider it. It's not that hard to pull more wire in old residential work. You just have to go the long way occasionally. |
Can you use white for one leg of 240V circuit?
On May 6, 7:55*am, The Daring Dufas
wrote: On 5/6/2011 12:46 AM, Robert Green wrote: "The Daring *wrote in message ... On 5/5/2011 3:39 PM, N8N wrote: On May 5, 4:12 pm, The Daring wrote: On 5/5/2011 12:22 PM, wrote: On Wed, 04 May 2011 19:11:12 -0500, The Daring Dufas * * wrote: Having worked for years as a commercial/industrial electrician, I always left a pull string in every conduit. If I ever built a house, it would be wired like a commercial building with EMT conduit. :-) In residential, smurf tube (ENT) is a good alternative to EMT. It gives you the flexibility without the hassle. I've used it with much success in the applications where I wanted it but I'll want the EMT in my place because of the inherent EM shielding of the metal conduit. I play with a lot of signal and DATA cabling so I want to prevent as much interference as I can. I can't imagine the thousands of feet of conduit and wire I've run. It gets away from you because of the sheer volume. In the late 1980's I was installing a Halon fire suppression and alarm system in the mission control center for a part of The SDI Program and me and the crew I was working with, pulled 20,000 feet of 14 THHN stranded into different 3/4 EMT runs in one day. That was just a small part of the system and the stuff adds up. When you run a lot of EMT you can pretty much look at an area and know how you're going install your conduit runs because you'll do the job in your head first. Of course when I win the giant lottery and I get a gazillion dollars to build my dream home, I'll go with wide metal studs and steel frame which makes conduit easier to install anyway. ^_^ TDD yuck. *I hate steel studs, unless they're installed at 12" OC or less. Of course, I like plaster walls, too. Nothing annoys me more than slamming a door and having every bloody wall in the house shake. *just makes the place feel cheap, and is widespread among new construction McMansions... *(even if they use wood 2x4s they often install them 24" OC instead of 16" like a good carpenter would. *Hate hate hate hate hate hate it.) nate Yea but, my walls would be sound damped which would add to their mass which would prevent rattling. No half way measures for a gazillionaire geek. ^_^ My walls would be hollow and wide enough to walk through. *I would install the obligatory portraits with the eye holes cut out and I'd dig an escape tunnel into the woods behind the house that had rails and a jet propelled exit sled. *And I'd have a moat and drawbridge with a secret trap door to send Saturday morning door-knocking, save your soul religious types straight to a moat baptism while fighting off the alligators and piranhas in the water. *That way, I could get to look down at them and say: *"You disagreed with something that ate you." -- Bobby G. I used to have fun frightening those Jesus freaks when they came to the door by claiming to be in the middle of Satanic ritual sacrifice of a nubile virgin. If I saw them in the area going from house to house and had the time, I would call some friends to get in on it and setup a whole faux Satanic ritual to confront the proselytizers with. I had a couple of gal pals who did the greatest evil diva act which would send many of the door knockers running in terror. It was such fun back then. ^_^ TDD SHAME ON YOU DD....YOU MUST CONFESS YOUR SINS ELSEWHERE.. AND REPENTANCE NOT BOASTING ABOUT IT IS THE KEY TO ABSOLUTION. WHAT SO EVER YOU DO TO THE LEAST OF YOUR BRETHREN, THAT YOU DO UNTO "HIM". SATAN IS VERY INTERESTED IN YOU ^@^ TGITM |
Can you use white for one leg of 240V circuit?
On May 6, 7:55*am, The Daring Dufas
wrote: On 5/6/2011 12:46 AM, Robert Green wrote: "The Daring *wrote in message ... On 5/5/2011 3:39 PM, N8N wrote: On May 5, 4:12 pm, The Daring wrote: On 5/5/2011 12:22 PM, wrote: On Wed, 04 May 2011 19:11:12 -0500, The Daring Dufas * * wrote: Having worked for years as a commercial/industrial electrician, I always left a pull string in every conduit. If I ever built a house, it would be wired like a commercial building with EMT conduit. :-) In residential, smurf tube (ENT) is a good alternative to EMT. It gives you the flexibility without the hassle. I've used it with much success in the applications where I wanted it but I'll want the EMT in my place because of the inherent EM shielding of the metal conduit. I play with a lot of signal and DATA cabling so I want to prevent as much interference as I can. I can't imagine the thousands of feet of conduit and wire I've run. It gets away from you because of the sheer volume. In the late 1980's I was installing a Halon fire suppression and alarm system in the mission control center for a part of The SDI Program and me and the crew I was working with, pulled 20,000 feet of 14 THHN stranded into different 3/4 EMT runs in one day. That was just a small part of the system and the stuff adds up. When you run a lot of EMT you can pretty much look at an area and know how you're going install your conduit runs because you'll do the job in your head first. Of course when I win the giant lottery and I get a gazillion dollars to build my dream home, I'll go with wide metal studs and steel frame which makes conduit easier to install anyway. ^_^ TDD yuck. *I hate steel studs, unless they're installed at 12" OC or less. Of course, I like plaster walls, too. Nothing annoys me more than slamming a door and having every bloody wall in the house shake. *just makes the place feel cheap, and is widespread among new construction McMansions... *(even if they use wood 2x4s they often install them 24" OC instead of 16" like a good carpenter would. *Hate hate hate hate hate hate it.) nate Yea but, my walls would be sound damped which would add to their mass which would prevent rattling. No half way measures for a gazillionaire geek. ^_^ My walls would be hollow and wide enough to walk through. *I would install the obligatory portraits with the eye holes cut out and I'd dig an escape tunnel into the woods behind the house that had rails and a jet propelled exit sled. *And I'd have a moat and drawbridge with a secret trap door to send Saturday morning door-knocking, save your soul religious types straight to a moat baptism while fighting off the alligators and piranhas in the water. *That way, I could get to look down at them and say: *"You disagreed with something that ate you." -- Bobby G. I used to have fun frightening those Jesus freaks when they came to the door by claiming to be in the middle of Satanic ritual sacrifice of a nubile virgin. If I saw them in the area going from house to house and had the time, I would call some friends to get in on it and setup a whole faux Satanic ritual to confront the proselytizers with. I had a couple of gal pals who did the greatest evil diva act which would send many of the door knockers running in terror. It was such fun back then. ^_^ TDD AND YOUR HOT FRIENDS & GAL PALS :€ TGITM |
Can you use white for one leg of 240V circuit?
On May 6, 11:44*am, wrote:
On Fri, 6 May 2011 05:33:32 -0700 (PDT), jamesgangnc wrote: On May 4, 9:53*pm, "RBM" wrote: "Nate Nagel" wrote in message My understanding is that the white must be connected to neutral so it won't be "dead" although it may be unused (now it will be "grounded" but not "grounding," although if I understand correctly it won't be allowed to be repurposed for anything else.) *I actually agree Greenfield but it's impractical sometimes in old work, and a LOT more expensive than Romex. *One place I could see it being used and not being much more expensive than the alternatives however is bathrooms what with all sorts of combination light/fan/heater things in the ceiling. nate replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel **The new code will require a neutral at switch locations, to be used (or not) as a neutral, for timers or electronic switching devices. In residential wood stud applications Greenfield would be too expensive, not only in cost of materials, but labor costs would be increased. You'd have to drill 1" holes in the framing, and use large boxes, metal only, with 1/2" knockouts. In addition to the circuit conductors, you have to pull a grounding conductor. Just use cable I agree, labor costs would be through the roof. *If you were building your own maybe. *The materials would still be more but not as ridiculously higher as the labor would be. *The benefit is not enough to make me consider it. *It's not that hard to pull more wire in old residential work. *You just have to go the long way occasionally. Chicago still requires EMT in residential the last time I heard but I think you can use Romex out in the burbs. ENT (smurf) is a good compromise. You get the flexibility of being able to run different wire and not a huge labor factor. In the addition I did in my house everything going down the block and concrete walls is in smurf. This is poured tie beam construction so what is in the wall is all you will ever get.http://gfretwell.com/electrical/addi...murf%20job.jpg A home run of 3/4" smurf makes it easy to change your mind. There are also low voltage outlets for TV/phone/data. It all originates in a J box where the home runs start. Changing what does what may be as easy as moving a wire between wire nuts.http://gfretwell.com/electrical/addition/j_box.jpg YOU'VE LABELED THEM WRONG...RED IS ALWAYS HOT AND BLACK IS THE SWITCHED SIDE. I PITY THE FOOL THAT HAS TO WORK ON THAT WHEN YOU'RE GONE IF HE DOESNT GET TO SEE YOUR LEGEND.....OTHER THAN THAT....NICE WORK. TGITM |
Can you use white for one leg of 240V circuit?
On May 3, 10:59*am, jamesgangnc wrote:
On May 3, 10:50*am, Tom Horne wrote: On May 2, 5:35*pm, "RBM" wrote: "jamesgangnc" wrote in message .... On May 2, 9:03 am, Tom Horne wrote: On May 2, 7:45 am, jamesgangnc wrote: On May 2, 6:37 am, "RBM" wrote: "The Daring Dufas" wrote in ... On 5/1/2011 9:12 PM, RBM wrote: "The Daring wrote in message ... On 5/1/2011 7:40 PM, wrote: OK, here'e the questiond du jour. Was helping a friend and when we took off the circuit breaker panel cover we discovered that for both AC units, whoever did this used white for one of the 240V hots. There is no tape or tag to identify it as a hot. Is this allowed by code? Even if it is, seems bad practice to me. I would have used either red or black. If you see a 10/2 with ground hooked to a two pole breaker on one end and disconnect for an AC condensing unit, water heater or dryer plug on the other end, you pretty much know that the white wire is another 240 volt leg. I agree with you, although, you should NEVER have a 10/2G feeding an electric dryer, unless you can find a piece of 10/2 SEU copper, which I've never seen. Despite the code, it is extremely rare that I ever see the white wire remarked I've seen it for years but as of late the rule change calls for a four wire circuit. Years ago I installed a lot of dryers with 10/2 w/gr but now I use 10/3 w/gr or 8/3 w/gr. The smallest aluminum SEU you can run in a house around here is #2 which I often use for stoves. Moving an old dryer to a new location has us removing the old 3 wire cord and plug for the 4 wire cord and plug. I often run 10/2 w/gr to the disconnect for a 2 ton condensing unit and never bother to mark the white wire because it's in the same jacket as the black and ground. TDD 10/2g is fine for hot water heaters, or A/C units. It has never been acceptable for an electric dryer, because the ground/neutral was required to be insulated. The only exception was using SUE cable, originating from the main service panel- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Actually 10/2 with a three prong plug was acceptable for dyers for a long time. Dryers have a metal strap inside them that connected neutral and ground together. The code now calls for a 4 prong plug and 10/3 with ground now. But I'll bet there are still millions of 3 prong installations out there. I don't know if replacing the dryer meet the code requirement to upgrade to 10/3 since you are not actually touching the circuit any. Existing circuits do not have to be upgraded to meet newer code releases. He was talking about moving the dryer not just replacing it. -- Tom Horne- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I didn't see anything in the thread about moving a dryer? *The op mentioned it related to the ac compressors. *On pure 240 circuits such as an ac compressor use of 2 conductors with a ground always has been and is still accpetable. *Same is true for hot water heaters. *New wiring for appliances that use both 240 and 120 such as stoves and electric dryers now requires 3 conductors plus ground. *And a 4 prong outlet. *RBM stated that 2 condutor with a ground was never accpetable for dryers and that's just false. *For many years dryers were wired using 10/2 and the strap inside the dryer connected neutral and ground together. ** NO, RBM stated that 10/2g was never acceptable for electric dryers.. 10/2 copper SEU cable would be acceptable, but I have never seen it. You would typically see 8/2 aluminum SEU. 10/2g Romex has NEVER been Nec approved for electric dryers On 5/1/2011 9:12 PM, The Daring Dufas *wrote: "I've seen it for years but as of late the rule change calls for a four wire circuit. Years ago I installed a lot of dryers with 10/2 w/gr but now I use 10/3 w/gr or 8/3 w/gr. The smallest aluminum SEU you can run in a house around here is #2 which I often use for stoves. Moving an old dryer to a new location has us removing the old 3 wire cord and plug for the 4 wire cord and plug. I often run 10/2 w/gr to the disconnect for a 2 ton condensing unit and never bother to mark the white wire because it's in the same jacket as the black and ground. TDD" RBM Here is the point in the thread were moving dryers was mentioned. -- Tom Horne- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Missed that one. I'm still having trouble believing that 10/2 w ground ws not code accepted at some point in the past. *Just because I have seen so many of them. *But I don't have copies of old code laying around to prove or disprove. *And we all agree that any chanes require it be brought up to 10/3 w ground. The other point is one I'm not sure about either. *Does code require a white condutor be marked black if it is used as one leg of a 240 circuit?- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - My home was built in 1990 and water heater is wired with 10-2 with ground. All the elements are 240 and there would be no place to connect a neutral. My electric range was wired for 10-3 with ground....... part of the reason is that at least part of the stove is 120VAC. Diagram of the stove shows an electronics board that gets its power from 110VAC. Jimmie |
Can you use white for one leg of 240V circuit?
On May 6, 6:12*pm, JIMMIE wrote:
On May 3, 10:59*am, jamesgangnc wrote: On May 3, 10:50*am, Tom Horne wrote: On May 2, 5:35*pm, "RBM" wrote: "jamesgangnc" wrote in message ... On May 2, 9:03 am, Tom Horne wrote: On May 2, 7:45 am, jamesgangnc wrote: On May 2, 6:37 am, "RBM" wrote: "The Daring Dufas" wrote in ... On 5/1/2011 9:12 PM, RBM wrote: "The Daring wrote in message ... On 5/1/2011 7:40 PM, wrote: OK, here'e the questiond du jour. Was helping a friend and when we took off the circuit breaker panel cover we discovered that for both AC units, whoever did this used white for one of the 240V hots. There is no tape or tag to identify it as a hot. Is this allowed by code? Even if it is, seems bad practice to me. I would have used either red or black. If you see a 10/2 with ground hooked to a two pole breaker on one end and disconnect for an AC condensing unit, water heater or dryer plug on the other end, you pretty much know that the white wire is another 240 volt leg. I agree with you, although, you should NEVER have a 10/2G feeding an electric dryer, unless you can find a piece of 10/2 SEU copper, which I've never seen. Despite the code, it is extremely rare that I ever see the white wire remarked I've seen it for years but as of late the rule change calls for a four wire circuit. Years ago I installed a lot of dryers with 10/2 w/gr but now I use 10/3 w/gr or 8/3 w/gr. The smallest aluminum SEU you can run in a house around here is #2 which I often use for stoves. Moving an old dryer to a new location has us removing the old 3 wire cord and plug for the 4 wire cord and plug. I often run 10/2 w/gr to the disconnect for a 2 ton condensing unit and never bother to mark the white wire because it's in the same jacket as the black and ground. TDD 10/2g is fine for hot water heaters, or A/C units. It has never been acceptable for an electric dryer, because the ground/neutral was required to be insulated. The only exception was using SUE cable, originating from the main service panel- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Actually 10/2 with a three prong plug was acceptable for dyers for a long time. Dryers have a metal strap inside them that connected neutral and ground together. The code now calls for a 4 prong plug and 10/3 with ground now. But I'll bet there are still millions of 3 prong installations out there. I don't know if replacing the dryer meet the code requirement to upgrade to 10/3 since you are not actually touching the circuit any. Existing circuits do not have to be upgraded to meet newer code releases. He was talking about moving the dryer not just replacing it. -- Tom Horne- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I didn't see anything in the thread about moving a dryer? *The op mentioned it related to the ac compressors. *On pure 240 circuits such as an ac compressor use of 2 conductors with a ground always has been and is still accpetable. *Same is true for hot water heaters. *New wiring for appliances that use both 240 and 120 such as stoves and electric dryers now requires 3 conductors plus ground. *And a 4 prong outlet. *RBM stated that 2 condutor with a ground was never accpetable for dryers and that's just false. *For many years dryers were wired using 10/2 and the strap inside the dryer connected neutral and ground together. ** NO, RBM stated that 10/2g was never acceptable for electric dryers. 10/2 copper SEU cable would be acceptable, but I have never seen it. You would typically see 8/2 aluminum SEU. 10/2g Romex has NEVER been Nec approved for electric dryers On 5/1/2011 9:12 PM, The Daring Dufas *wrote: "I've seen it for years but as of late the rule change calls for a four wire circuit. Years ago I installed a lot of dryers with 10/2 w/gr but now I use 10/3 w/gr or 8/3 w/gr. The smallest aluminum SEU you can run in a house around here is #2 which I often use for stoves. Moving an old dryer to a new location has us removing the old 3 wire cord and plug for the 4 wire cord and plug. I often run 10/2 w/gr to the disconnect for a 2 ton condensing unit and never bother to mark the white wire because it's in the same jacket as the black and ground. TDD" RBM Here is the point in the thread were moving dryers was mentioned. -- Tom Horne- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Missed that one. I'm still having trouble believing that 10/2 w ground ws not code accepted at some point in the past. *Just because I have seen so many of them. *But I don't have copies of old code laying around to prove or disprove. *And we all agree that any chanes require it be brought up to 10/3 w ground. The other point is one I'm not sure about either. *Does code require a white condutor be marked black if it is used as one leg of a 240 circuit?- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - My home was built in 1990 and water heater is wired with 10-2 with ground. All the elements are 240 and there would be no place to connect a neutral. *My electric range was wired for 10-3 with ground....... part of the reason is that at least part of the stove is 120VAC. Diagram of the stove shows an electronics board that gets its power from 110VAC. Jimmie WHAT'S YOUR POINT? TGITM |
Can you use white for one leg of 240V circuit?
Yes, as long as it's labelled or colored at each end what its color should
be. I think It's in the NEC but I can't cite it. IIRC, and you might want to check this out for su In such a ckt, the norm is: RED = Always hot Blk = switched hot WH = Neutral |
Can you use white for one leg of 240V circuit?
On Sat, 7 May 2011 14:46:49 -0400, "Twayne"
wrote: Yes, as long as it's labelled or colored at each end what its color should be. I think It's in the NEC but I can't cite it. IIRC, and you might want to check this out for su In such a ckt, the norm is: RED = Always hot Blk = switched hot WH = Neutral I always made the red the switched. So much for normal. I had a foreman once that ordered purple to use for travelers and switch legs. I always thought that was a good idea. |
Can you use white for one leg of 240V circuit?
"Metspitzer" wrote in message ... On Sat, 7 May 2011 14:46:49 -0400, "Twayne" wrote: Yes, as long as it's labelled or colored at each end what its color should be. I think It's in the NEC but I can't cite it. IIRC, and you might want to check this out for su In such a ckt, the norm is: RED = Always hot Blk = switched hot WH = Neutral I always made the red the switched. So much for normal. I had a foreman once that ordered purple to use for travelers and switch legs. I always thought that was a good idea. ** That's fine if you're pulling your own conductors. The Nec has no specific colors for switched legs, other than not using the white wire of a cable, as the return from a switch. All colors are considered "hot" except green, white, and natural gray. and no, I have no idea what the difference is between gray, and natural gray. |
Can you use white for one leg of 240V circuit?
On 5/7/2011 2:29 PM, RBM wrote:
wrote in message ... On Sat, 7 May 2011 14:46:49 -0400, "Twayne" wrote: Yes, as long as it's labelled or colored at each end what its color should be. I think It's in the NEC but I can't cite it. IIRC, and you might want to check this out for su In such a ckt, the norm is: RED = Always hot Blk = switched hot WH = Neutral I always made the red the switched. So much for normal. I had a foreman once that ordered purple to use for travelers and switch legs. I always thought that was a good idea. ** That's fine if you're pulling your own conductors. The Nec has no specific colors for switched legs, other than not using the white wire of a cable, as the return from a switch. All colors are considered "hot" except green, white, and natural gray. and no, I have no idea what the difference is between gray, and natural gray. Natural gray is really old and cranky wire. ^_^ TDD |
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