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Default OT, Libya, Japan

A) Libya. I assume that when cruise missiles are sent against radar
sites, they use the largest payload that works, in order to do the
most damage. But if they could find out where kaddafi is, could they
not use a small payload, big enough to kill him and maybe 25 people
closest to him? Way back in 1966, I worked as a lowest-level
undergraduate, confined mostly to delivering the mail and making
copies, plus a couple other less time-consumng things meant to teach
me more than they were meant for me to help anyone there, at the US
Naval Avionics Facility, where they were working on the Walleye
missile, to be controlled by the pilot of a plane who would identify a
target as small as a person or a doorway, lock on to it, and the
missile, with a little ongoing help from the pilot, was meant to hit
it. I think they had production problems that delayed it for years,
but by now, with faster processors, GPS, and with the great success
from cruise missiles, I think it would be possible to go through a
window or a wall and straight to where he is standing.

B) Japan. Don't they have lead-lined suits that the firemen could
wear to get their water cannon closer to the reactors? I saw that
they only shoot 100 or 150 feet, but once they had the range, I think
they would work a lot faster than dumping from the sky, where most
goes somewhere else.

Is there any kind of robot that will fit in the drivers seat and
press the pedals and steer, so they wouldn't need a special robot for
every purpose?

If not, can't they drive the truck up there and leave for a few
hours in another truck or by walking?
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Default OT, Libya, Japan

mm wrote:

A) Libya.


It's too bad that western countries are going to topple Kaddafi.

When will we learn that it takes a dictator to lead arab / muslim
countries, and that in the abscence of said dictator what we end up with
is caos, confusion, stagnation, and degredation of the state of affairs
of (insert arab/muslim country here).

Seems that before all this started to happen, that the people in Libya
were getting along, doing their business, living their lives, etc.

The west had their oil companies there, doing business, and the country
seemed stable enough, and people weren't being slaughtered in the
streets.

Nothing good will come of Kaddafi being assasinated (like Saddam Hussein
was, and nothing good has really come of that either).

Libya will now degenerate into a Somolia or Ethiopia or Congo, and we
(the west) will have another basket case of a country to take care of.
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Default OT, Libya, Japan



"Home Guy" wrote in message ...

Seems that before all this started to happen, that the people in Libya
were getting along, doing their business, living their lives, etc.


Yeah, just like they should have left South Africa alone back in the days of
apartheid, everybody was getting along, doing their business, living their
lives--they didn't need all those boycotts and trade embargoes and
diplomatic pressure to change their system of government to one where
everybody gets to vote.

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Default OT, Libya, Japan

DGDevin wrote:
"Home Guy" wrote in message ...

Seems that before all this started to happen, that the people in
Libya were getting along, doing their business, living their lives,
etc.


Yeah, just like they should have left South Africa alone back in the
days of apartheid, everybody was getting along, doing their business,
living their lives--they didn't need all those boycotts and trade
embargoes and diplomatic pressure to change their system of
government to one where everybody gets to vote.


If asked to name the most stable democracy in the Western world, a country
with zero unemployment, 100% literacy, and one that hasn't been in a war in
500 years, one would have to name Switzerland.

Women couldn't vote in Switzerland until 1976. After that, the country
started going downhill...


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Default OT, Libya, Japan

On 3/20/2011 8:59 PM, HeyBub wrote:
DGDevin wrote:
"Home Guy" wrote in message ...

Seems that before all this started to happen, that the people in
Libya were getting along, doing their business, living their lives,
etc.


Yeah, just like they should have left South Africa alone back in the
days of apartheid, everybody was getting along, doing their business,
living their lives--they didn't need all those boycotts and trade
embargoes and diplomatic pressure to change their system of
government to one where everybody gets to vote.


If asked to name the most stable democracy in the Western world, a country
with zero unemployment, 100% literacy, and one that hasn't been in a war in
500 years, one would have to name Switzerland.

Women couldn't vote in Switzerland until 1976. After that, the country
started going downhill...



Women don't exactly use any rational means of choosing who to vote for.
One of my grownup girlfriends whom I adore, voted for Bill Clinton
because he was better looking than the other candidate. I know the same
thing happened with Obama. There were all kinds of females swooning
over the guy, it's ridiculous and the result is devastating to the
country. A friend of mine said his elderly mother votes for candidates
based on the way they look or how pretty they are. GEEZ!

TDD


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"The Daring Dufas" wrote in message
...


Women couldn't vote in Switzerland until 1976. After that, the country
started going downhill...


Women don't exactly use any rational means of choosing who to vote for.
One of my grownup girlfriends whom I adore, voted for Bill Clinton because
he was better looking than the other candidate. I know the same
thing happened with Obama. There were all kinds of females swooning
over the guy, it's ridiculous and the result is devastating to the
country. A friend of mine said his elderly mother votes for candidates
based on the way they look or how pretty they are. GEEZ!


And then there are the men-folk who vote based on which letter appears after
the candidate's name. "What, this guy is a Dumacrat?! No way in hell am I
votin' fer one of them critters, they want to make me marry one o' them thar
gays!"

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"HeyBub" wrote in message
...

If asked to name the most stable democracy in the Western world, a country
with zero unemployment,


Switzerland has an unemployment rate of about four and a half percent.

100% literacy,


According to their govt. it is 99%.

and one that hasn't been in a war in 500 years, one would have to name
Switzerland.


Switzerland was the scene of a *civil war* in the mid 19th century, that's
how it became a federal state. In case you're wondering that puts their
last war 164 years ago although their last international war goes back 196
years. Since then they've managed to stay out of wars only by being
prepared to give any potential invader a really nasty time, although of
course the army kept in practice by shooting down strikers and protestors
over the years.

Women couldn't vote in Switzerland until 1976. After that, the country
started going downhill...


Women got the vote in some cantons of Switzerland beginning in 1959, at the
federal level in 1971.

Is there *anything* you believe that didn't come from a bumper-sticker?

Oh, if you move there you are required by law to buy health insurance unless
you're a foreign diplomat. Insurance companies are required to offer
non-profit insurance for basic coverage but can make a profit on optional
coverage. They can't turn you down because of age or medical history so the
old and crazy thing shouldn't be a problem for you.

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Default OT, Libya, Japan

DGDevin wrote:
"HeyBub" wrote in message
...

If asked to name the most stable democracy in the Western world, a
country with zero unemployment,


Switzerland has an unemployment rate of about four and a half percent.

100% literacy,


According to their govt. it is 99%.

and one that hasn't been in a war in 500 years, one would have to
name Switzerland.


Switzerland was the scene of a *civil war* in the mid 19th century,
that's how it became a federal state. In case you're wondering that
puts their last war 164 years ago although their last international
war goes back 196 years. Since then they've managed to stay out of
wars only by being prepared to give any potential invader a really
nasty time, although of course the army kept in practice by shooting
down strikers and protestors over the years.

Women couldn't vote in Switzerland until 1976. After that, the
country started going downhill...


Women got the vote in some cantons of Switzerland beginning in 1959,
at the federal level in 1971.

Is there *anything* you believe that didn't come from a
bumper-sticker?


Einstein said there is nothing that cannot be explained simply and bumper
stickers are the distilled wisdom of the ages. In one instance, a judge
ruled that an Ohio State student's bumper sticker "**** Michigan" was not
obscene because:
* It did not appeal to prurient interests,
* The work, taken as a whole, was not without socially redeeming value, and
* The work accurately reflected contemporary community standards.

I would have added that it's brevity contributed to its effectiveness in
making a point.


Oh, if you move there you are required by law to buy health insurance
unless you're a foreign diplomat. Insurance companies are required
to offer non-profit insurance for basic coverage but can make a
profit on optional coverage. They can't turn you down because of age
or medical history so the old and crazy thing shouldn't be a problem
for you.


Thank you for the corrections. I may have had the facts wrong, but the
narrative was correct.


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On Mar 20, 10:55*pm, "DGDevin" wrote:
"Home Guy" *wrote in ...
Seems that before all this started to happen, that the people in Libya
were getting along, doing their business, living their lives, etc.


Yeah, just like they should have left South Africa alone back in the days of
apartheid, everybody was getting along, doing their business, living their
lives--they didn't need all those boycotts and trade embargoes and
diplomatic pressure to change their system of government to one where
everybody gets to vote.


Are they any better off now? (Post apartheit.)
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Default OT, Libya, Japan

On Mar 19, 11:55*pm, Home Guy wrote:
mm wrote:
A) Libya.


It's too bad that western countries are going to topple Kaddafi.

When will we learn that it takes a dictator to lead arab / muslim
countries, and that in the abscence of said dictator what we end up with
is caos, confusion, stagnation, and degredation of the state of affairs
of (insert arab/muslim country here).

Seems that before all this started to happen, that the people in Libya
were getting along, doing their business, living their lives, etc.

The west had their oil companies there, doing business, and the country
seemed stable enough, and people weren't being slaughtered in the
streets.

Nothing good will come of Kaddafi being assasinated (like Saddam Hussein
was, and nothing good has really come of that either).

Libya will now degenerate into a Somolia or Ethiopia or Congo, and we
(the west) will have another basket case of a country to take care of.


Good god! Have we here a sensible American? Are you American?
I have a very bad feeling sbout all this myself, I think you are
entirely correct.

I think we might end up with two countries. Gadafi still in one of
them, hatching up all sorts of evil plots.

BTW, Where are the Arab forces? So far it's been French,US and UK.
The f****g clothheads have ducked out


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On 3/21/2011 4:12 AM, harry wrote:
On Mar 19, 11:55 pm, Home wrote:
mm wrote:
A) Libya.


It's too bad that western countries are going to topple Kaddafi.

When will we learn that it takes a dictator to lead arab / muslim
countries, and that in the abscence of said dictator what we end up with
is caos, confusion, stagnation, and degredation of the state of affairs
of (insert arab/muslim country here).

Seems that before all this started to happen, that the people in Libya
were getting along, doing their business, living their lives, etc.

The west had their oil companies there, doing business, and the country
seemed stable enough, and people weren't being slaughtered in the
streets.

Nothing good will come of Kaddafi being assasinated (like Saddam Hussein
was, and nothing good has really come of that either).

Libya will now degenerate into a Somolia or Ethiopia or Congo, and we
(the west) will have another basket case of a country to take care of.


Good god! Have we here a sensible American? Are you American?
I have a very bad feeling sbout all this myself, I think you are
entirely correct.

I think we might end up with two countries. Gadafi still in one of
them, hatching up all sorts of evil plots.

BTW, Where are the Arab forces? So far it's been French,US and UK.
The f****g clothheads have ducked out


Harry! How insensitive of you! You can't call them schtupping cloth
heads! The correct term is "frigging towel-heads". :-)

TDD
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Default OT, Libya, Japan

Oren wrote:

Nothing good will come of Kaddafi being assasinated (like Saddam
Hussein was, and nothing good has really come of that either).


Um. For the record, Saddam Hussein was not assassinated.


The entire "war" the us prosecuted in Iraq was one big Hussein
assassination attempt. Hussein, and his 2 sons.

It was a political assassination disguised as a war - which wasn't even
a real war because the US did not declare war on Iraq and the US did not
hold a vote in the UN security council to authorize action against Iraq
like Bush said he was going to do.

U.S. Federal law prohibits the assassination of foreign dignitaries


Hence the false war in Iraq.

The very first night - over 1000 cruise missles fired at every place
they thought Hussein could be. A so-called "decapitation" of Iraq's
command and control structures. A thinly veiled assassination attempt,
and very expensive when you consider the missles cost $10 million each.

But let's not detract from the main thesis: Aram / muslim countries
can't evolve or maintain any sort of democracy or democratic form of
gov't or a society that obeys any sort of legal framework or impartial
court system. They are far to tribal and clannish to achieve such
structures and enjoy the lifestyles and liberty that follows.
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Default OT, Libya, Japan

On Sat, 19 Mar 2011 20:35:31 -0400, Home Guy wrote Re
OT, Libya, Japan:

But let's not detract from the main thesis: Aram / muslim countries
can't evolve or maintain any sort of democracy or democratic form of
gov't or a society that obeys any sort of legal framework or impartial
court system. They are far to tribal and clannish to achieve such
structures and enjoy the lifestyles and liberty that follows.


+1 on that.
--
Work is the curse of the drinking class.
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Default OT, Libya, Japan



"Home Guy" wrote in message ...


But let's not detract from the main thesis: Aram / muslim countries
can't evolve or maintain any sort of democracy or democratic form of
gov't or a society that obeys any sort of legal framework or impartial
court system. They are far to tribal and clannish to achieve such
structures and enjoy the lifestyles and liberty that follows.


Turkey and Indonesia are democracies with a combined population of over 300
million, but don't let that fact get in the way of your dogma.

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DGDevin wrote:
"Home Guy" wrote in message ...


But let's not detract from the main thesis: Aram / muslim countries
can't evolve or maintain any sort of democracy or democratic form of
gov't or a society that obeys any sort of legal framework or
impartial court system. They are far to tribal and clannish to
achieve such structures and enjoy the lifestyles and liberty that
follows.


Turkey and Indonesia are democracies with a combined population of
over 300 million, but don't let that fact get in the way of your
dogma.


Not dogma, fact.

There are 50 other predominately Muslim countries that are Theocracies
(Iran, most of Afghanistan), Monarchies (Saudi Arabia, Jordan), Oligarchies
(Egypt), Thugocracies (Tunisia, Lybia), or out-and-out Anarchies (Sudan,
Somalia). Combined, they encompass about 1 billion souls.




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"HeyBub" wrote in message
m...

Turkey and Indonesia are democracies with a combined population of
over 300 million, but don't let that fact get in the way of your
dogma.


Not dogma, fact.


He wrote:

"Aram / muslim countries
can't evolve or maintain any sort of democracy or democratic form of
gov't or a society that obeys any sort of legal framework or impartial
court system."

I just named two Muslim countries that are in fact democracies, so he's
wrong about Muslim nations being unable to operate as democracies, it's that
simple. It's also unavoidable that however much we dislike the legal code
under which some Muslim nations operate, it is a legal code and thus it
makes no sense to say they don't have one. Maybe you don't like the
designated hitter rule, but that wouldn't justify you in saying MLB has no
rules.

There are 50 other predominately Muslim countries that are Theocracies
(Iran, most of Afghanistan), Monarchies (Saudi Arabia, Jordan),
Oligarchies (Egypt), Thugocracies (Tunisia, Lybia), or out-and-out
Anarchies (Sudan, Somalia). Combined, they encompass about 1 billion
souls.


There are (and have been) plenty of countries with tyrannical governments,
and if you read your history you'll discover that many of them have got
along just fine with Uncle Sam so long as they kept the natural resources
flowing and cooperated with U.S. foreign policy. Greece is a democracy
*today* but it's had its share of military coups. South Africa is a
democracy *today* but as I'm sure you remember there was a day when only a
small fraction of its citizens had the vote. Latin America and South
America are full of nations that are democracies *today* but which not long
ago were run by military juntas that Washington thought were doing a fine
job. And of course some of those oppressive Arab states are allies of the
U.S., it seems America isn't too picky about that. Some of the former
satellites and republics of the Soviet Union are democracies, some are in
name only--so apparently there are other factors than the percentage of
Muslims in the population determining how that works out. Hell, the nation
with the biggest population on earth is mostly non-Muslim and it sure isn't
a democracy, so it seems religion isn't the key factor in determining what
kind of govt. a nation ends up with.

America seems to have a problem with oppressive governments only when they
don't cooperate with America. Iran once had an elected democratic govt.,
but once it started to mess with western oil profits it was bye-bye elected
government, hello U.S.-British backed coup and our new pal the Shah. And
look where that lead.

So don't be too quick to blame Islam for all those jacked-up Islamic
nations. Some of those nations are a mess in large part because western
colonial powers drew arbitrary lines on maps and created new nations full of
ethnic tensions, or because the west supported oppressive regimes which made
themselves useful. Islamophobia is a cop-out, and people who use it are
usually pig-ignorant of the facts.

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Default OT, Libya, Japan


"Oren" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 19 Mar 2011 19:55:43 -0400, Home Guy wrote:

He had a
trail in a court of jurisdiction and was hung.

Mrs. Hussein would have to agree.

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Default OT, Libya, Japan

On 3/19/2011 7:12 PM, mm wrote:

Ran across this:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0..._n_837894.html

on a per capita basis, no country sent more young fighters into Iraq to
kill Americans than Libya -- and almost all of them came from eastern
Libya, the center of the anti-Gaddafi rebellion that the United States
and others now have vowed to protect, according to internal al Qaeda
documents uncovered by U.S. intelligence.

Unintended consequences. Seems to me like a good site for a GE Mark 1
reactor. I know where they can get 5 or 6 used ones.

Jeff

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Default OT, Libya, Japan

Jeff Thies wrote:

on a per capita basis, no country sent more young fighters into
Iraq to kill Americans than Libya -- and almost all of them came
from eastern Libya, the center of the anti-Gaddafi rebellion that
the United States and others now have vowed to protect


Just another example of the schizophrenic nature of US foreign policy
and strategic thinking.

Just like handing over weapons and training the taliban to fight the
soviets in afghanistan (who were on their way to at least tame and
civilize that stone-age excuse for a country) and we know the blowback
that happened from that.

Just like handing over chemical weapons to Sadam Hussein to use against
Iran (remember the photo of Rumsfeld shaking hands with Hussein?) as
Iraq fights a proxy war for the US against Iran, and later the US screws
Iraq over the invasion of Kuwait (he got the green light to do it from
the US to invade Kuwait, and the US faked satellite pictures showing
Iraq was massing tanks along border with Saudia Arabia as excuse to
station a permenant US military presence there, which arguably fed into
muslim anti-US hatred and helped foment 9/11 attacks purpetrated mostly
by Saudi men).
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"Home Guy" wrote in message ...

Just like handing over weapons and training the taliban to fight the
soviets in afghanistan (who were on their way to at least tame and
civilize that stone-age excuse for a country) and we know the blowback
that happened from that.


"Civilize"? The Soviet Union wasn't exactly a beacon of civilization
itself, at least by the standards you set in another post, i.e. democracy
and independent courts, but they were going to civilize Afghanistan, the
land where empires go to die?

Just like handing over chemical weapons to Sadam Hussein to use against
Iran (remember the photo of Rumsfeld shaking hands with Hussein?)


Kindly document that the U.S. handed over chemical weapons to Iraq.
Technology and materials useful for making such weapons came to Iraq mostly
from Europe which allowed Iraq to make its own chemical weapons.

as
Iraq fights a proxy war for the US against Iran, and later the US screws
Iraq over the invasion of Kuwait (he got the green light to do it from
the US to invade Kuwait,


That is the comic-book version of history. In the real world Iraq was $80
billion in debt as a result of its long war with Iran ($14 billion owed to
Kuwait) and Kuwait was helping to keep oil prices down with high oil
production which Iraq regarded as economic warfare. Kuwait was also
supposedly using slant-drilling technology to tap Iraqi oilfields. So the
U.S. ambassador saying America had no opinion on the economic disagreements
between Iraq and Kuwait could hardly have been taken as a green light for
invasion without which Saddam would not have acted.

and the US faked satellite pictures showing
Iraq was massing tanks along border with Saudia Arabia as excuse to
station a permenant US military presence there


Your argument is somewhat damaged by the fact that the U.S. withdrew its
forces from Saudi Arabia years ago.

, which arguably fed into
muslim anti-US hatred and helped foment 9/11 attacks purpetrated mostly
by Saudi men).


Hey, you finally got one right. U.S. and other infidel troops in Saudi
Arabia was in fact what pushed Osama bin Laden over the edge into jihad with
the west.



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On 3/19/2011 7:12 PM, mm wrote:
A) Libya.


What I don't understand is that Libya isn't one of the top oil exporters
and our (US) gas prices are increasing daily.
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On Mar 23, 2:56*am, Cheryl wrote:
On 3/19/2011 7:12 PM, mm wrote:

A) Libya.


What I don't understand is that Libya isn't one of the top oil exporters
and our (US) gas prices are increasing daily.


It's has little to do with production. Oil prices are rising due to
speculators. Other oil producers have promised to increase
production.
These are the same *******s that buggered up the worlds' economy.
Republicans to a man.

It only takes a small shortfall (even if imaginary) to hugely increase
prices on life's neccesities.
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harry wrote:
On Mar 23, 2:56 am, Cheryl wrote:
On 3/19/2011 7:12 PM, mm wrote:

A) Libya.


What I don't understand is that Libya isn't one of the top oil
exporters and our (US) gas prices are increasing daily.


It's has little to do with production. Oil prices are rising due to
speculators. Other oil producers have promised to increase
production.
These are the same *******s that buggered up the worlds' economy.
Republicans to a man.

It only takes a small shortfall (even if imaginary) to hugely increase
prices on life's neccesities.


Only in capitalist countries. If the price of crude goes up, the gas station
owner has to have enough cash to cover his next delivery of 15,000 gallons.
So he raises his prices immediately to be able to buy his next load of
product. Hence the "Rocket up" notion of increased prices.

If the price of crude goes down, the gas station owner lowers his prices to
meet the competition. This technique is known as the "Feather down" process
on gas prices.

As I said, this happens only in capitalistic economies. Where the government
controls the supply of fuel, prices do not show such volatility. Think Iran
or Venezuela.

Or Pennsylvania liquor stores.


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On Mar 23, 11:43*am, "HeyBub" wrote:
harry wrote:
On Mar 23, 2:56 am, Cheryl wrote:
On 3/19/2011 7:12 PM, mm wrote:


A) Libya.


What I don't understand is that Libya isn't one of the top oil
exporters and our (US) gas prices are increasing daily.


It's has little to do with production. *Oil prices are rising due to
speculators. *Other oil producers have promised to increase
production.
These are the same *******s that buggered up the worlds' economy.
Republicans to a man.


It only takes a small shortfall (even if imaginary) to hugely increase
prices on life's neccesities.


Only in capitalist countries. If the price of crude goes up, the gas station
owner has to have enough cash to cover his next delivery of 15,000 gallons.
So he raises his prices immediately to be able to buy his next load of
product. Hence the "Rocket up" notion of increased prices.

If the price of crude goes down, the gas station owner lowers his prices to
meet the competition. This technique is known as the "Feather down" process
on gas prices.

As I said, this happens only in capitalistic economies. Where the government
controls the supply of fuel, prices do not show such volatility. Think Iran
or Venezuela.

Or Pennsylvania liquor stores.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Yes, think of Venezuela where petrol is less than twenty cents a
gallon.
In capitalist countries fuel prices are contolled by taxation.
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harry wrote:

Yes, think of Venezuela where petrol is less than twenty cents a
gallon.
In capitalist countries fuel prices are contolled by taxation.


Latest numbers for Venezuela are around twelve cents per gallon.

The U.S.? $3.45. (#101)

And the UK? $8.38 (#3)




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