I have two smoke detectors in my house which are over 8 years old,
plus one CO detector. Since the smoke detectors are near end of life,
I'd like to improve the coverage. I also need new detectors in a
mobile home that I rent out.

My ideal would be

-- tri-mode (photoelectric + ionization + carbon monoxide)
-- interconnected (all sound when one trips)
-- operate whether power is on or off
-- loud

I realize that I probably can't have it all, so I'm looking for the
best compromise. I haven't found any place with really comprehensive
listings, especially any which make it easy to determine what models
meet which of my criteria. Consumer Reports has good descriptions of
the issues but analyzes very few models.

So I'm looking for advice both on what compromises are most
reasonable, and on specific models (possibly multiple models in
combination) which might implement that compromise. I appreciate
resources as well as direct information.

Notes on each of my items:

I probably don't need to explain why I want tri-mode -- anyone not
familiar with the types can easily google them. I'm willing to spring
for multiple detectors if there are no satisfactory tri-mode detectors
available. (I haven't found any tri-mode detectors in a single unit.)

The advantage of interconnection should be obvious. Same for loud.

I'm unsure whether I want AC powered or battery powered. AC powered
work without needing to change batteries and have plenty of power for
a loud alarm. Battery powered operate when the power is out; I don't
know if any of these can be interconnected. I know there are some AC
powered with battery backup, but then that's still a battery to
monitor and replace.

The big question with respect to AC vs battery is which is more
effective overall. Power isn't out very much, but it does go out. In
the house it probably averages a few hours a year -- once it was out
for 18 hours after a severe thunderstorm, but usually it's not more
than an hour or two, and it goes for months with no interruption at
all. The mobile home is in a rural area and outages can be longer; it
was without power for 3-1/2 days after Hurricane Kate, about 25 years
ago. But are there any common factors to fire and power outage?
Anything about a power outage that makes fire more likely? (Using
candles and kerosene lamps would seem a significant risk. I have
battery operated lights instead.) Perhaps an electrical malfunction
could start a fire but then trip the breaker powering the detectors
before they sound the alarm? On the other side, weak batteries are an
obvious risk, albeit one which regular testing ameliorates. So neither
is perfect, but what are the probabilities of a multiple failure? That
is, power outage plus fire, or battery failure plus fire, or alarm not
loud enough plus fire, etc? Are there other common mode failures?

In the house, I can easily run AC wiring and/or interconnection wiring
in the attic. In the mobile home, I might be able to run it above the
ceiling, or I could gouge a trough in the ceiling tile or just run it
along the upper corners -- the place doesn't look good enough for me
to worry about the damage.

Edward

On Feb 4, 2:03*am, Edward Reid
wrote:
I have two smoke detectors in my house which are over 8 years old,
plus one CO detector. Since the smoke detectors are near end of life,
I'd like to improve the coverage. I also need new detectors in a
mobile home that I rent out.

My ideal would be

-- tri-mode (photoelectric + ionization + carbon monoxide)
-- interconnected (all sound when one trips)
-- operate whether power is on or off
-- loud

I realize that I probably can't have it all, so I'm looking for the
best compromise. I haven't found any place with really comprehensive
listings, especially any which make it easy to determine what models
meet which of my criteria. Consumer Reports has good descriptions of
the issues but analyzes very few models.

So I'm looking for advice both on what compromises are most
reasonable, and on specific models (possibly multiple models in
combination) which might implement that compromise. I appreciate
resources as well as direct information.

Notes on each of my items:

I probably don't need to explain why I want tri-mode -- anyone not
familiar with the types can easily google them. I'm willing to spring
for multiple detectors if there are no satisfactory tri-mode detectors
available. (I haven't found any tri-mode detectors in a single unit.)

The advantage of interconnection should be obvious. Same for loud.

I'm unsure whether I want AC powered or battery powered. AC powered
work without needing to change batteries and have plenty of power for
a loud alarm. Battery powered operate when the power is out; I don't
know if any of these can be interconnected. I know there are some AC
powered with battery backup, but then that's still a battery to
monitor and replace.

The big question with respect to AC vs battery is which is more
effective overall. Power isn't out very much, but it does go out. In
the house it probably averages a few hours a year -- once it was out
for 18 hours after a severe thunderstorm, but usually it's not more
than an hour or two, and it goes for months with no interruption at
all. The mobile home is in a rural area and outages can be longer; it
was without power for 3-1/2 days after Hurricane Kate, about 25 years
ago. But are there any common factors to fire and power outage?
Anything about a power outage that makes fire more likely? (Using
candles and kerosene lamps would seem a significant risk. I have
battery operated lights instead.) Perhaps an electrical malfunction
could start a fire but then trip the breaker powering the detectors
before they sound the alarm? On the other side, weak batteries are an
obvious risk, albeit one which regular testing ameliorates. So neither
is perfect, but what are the probabilities of a multiple failure? That
is, power outage plus fire, or battery failure plus fire, or alarm not
loud enough plus fire, etc? Are there other common mode failures?

In the house, I can easily run AC wiring and/or interconnection wiring
in the attic. In the mobile home, I might be able to run it above the
ceiling, or I could gouge a trough in the ceiling tile or just run it
along the upper corners -- the place doesn't look good enough for me
to worry about the damage.

Edward

Get at least the AC/DC in your rental. If you only get the battery
operated ones, the renters will take the batteries out to use in some
gadget.

Hank

"Edward Reid" wrote in message
...
I have two smoke detectors in my house which are over 8 years old,
plus one CO detector. Since the smoke detectors are near end of life,
I'd like to improve the coverage. I also need new detectors in a
mobile home that I rent out.

My ideal would be

-- tri-mode (photoelectric + ionization + carbon monoxide)
-- interconnected (all sound when one trips)
-- operate whether power is on or off
-- loud

I realize that I probably can't have it all, so I'm looking for the
best compromise. I haven't found any place with really comprehensive
listings, especially any which make it easy to determine what models
meet which of my criteria. Consumer Reports has good descriptions of
the issues but analyzes very few models.

So I'm looking for advice both on what compromises are most
reasonable, and on specific models (possibly multiple models in
combination) which might implement that compromise. I appreciate
resources as well as direct information.

Notes on each of my items:

I probably don't need to explain why I want tri-mode -- anyone not
familiar with the types can easily google them. I'm willing to spring
for multiple detectors if there are no satisfactory tri-mode detectors
available. (I haven't found any tri-mode detectors in a single unit.)

The advantage of interconnection should be obvious. Same for loud.

I'm unsure whether I want AC powered or battery powered. AC powered
work without needing to change batteries and have plenty of power for
a loud alarm. Battery powered operate when the power is out; I don't
know if any of these can be interconnected. I know there are some AC
powered with battery backup, but then that's still a battery to
monitor and replace.

The big question with respect to AC vs battery is which is more
effective overall. Power isn't out very much, but it does go out. In
the house it probably averages a few hours a year -- once it was out
for 18 hours after a severe thunderstorm, but usually it's not more
than an hour or two, and it goes for months with no interruption at
all. The mobile home is in a rural area and outages can be longer; it
was without power for 3-1/2 days after Hurricane Kate, about 25 years
ago. But are there any common factors to fire and power outage?
Anything about a power outage that makes fire more likely? (Using
candles and kerosene lamps would seem a significant risk. I have
battery operated lights instead.) Perhaps an electrical malfunction
could start a fire but then trip the breaker powering the detectors
before they sound the alarm? On the other side, weak batteries are an
obvious risk, albeit one which regular testing ameliorates. So neither
is perfect, but what are the probabilities of a multiple failure? That
is, power outage plus fire, or battery failure plus fire, or alarm not
loud enough plus fire, etc? Are there other common mode failures?

In the house, I can easily run AC wiring and/or interconnection wiring
in the attic. In the mobile home, I might be able to run it above the
ceiling, or I could gouge a trough in the ceiling tile or just run it
along the upper corners -- the place doesn't look good enough for me
to worry about the damage.

Edward

The current NFPA requirements are that smokes be installed in every bedroom
and one on every level, all interconnected, and have a back up power supply.

The NFPA has been struggling for years to figure out why people disable
their smoke detectors. I think the answer is that when there is a failure at
3 AM, and every smoke in your house blows off, scaring the snot out of
everyone in the house, the instinct is to rip them out of the ceiling.
Personally, I don't like the idea of the interconnections, because you don't
know where the potential fire is. If only the smoke that detects the fire
went off, you'd have a better idea where to run to, or from. Just my 2
cents.

You don't have to monitor the smoke batteries, they all have a beep warning
when they're low. I would use a Kidde combination smoke CO2, 120 volt with 9
volt battery. I've had the fewest failures with Kidde

On 2011-02-04, Edward Reid wrote:

-- loud

The big question with respect to AC vs battery is which is more
effective overall.

The most effective (loud) smoke alarm I ever saw (heard?) was a Sears
model AC alarm. The damn thing was so loud, it actually physically
took me aback. No doubt it would literally blow one out of their bed,
a good thing.

OTOH, I can see the advantage of a battery alarm. I can't recommend
any.

I will say this about CO2 detectors. The Kidde digital readout model
I bought ($20) seems to be junk. Doesn't reset to zero, never reads
anthing but "28", and never "alarms". I have a rock that works as
effectively.

nb

On Feb 4, 2:03*am, Edward Reid
wrote:
I have two smoke detectors in my house which are over 8 years old,
plus one CO detector. Since the smoke detectors are near end of life,
I'd like to improve the coverage. I also need new detectors in a
mobile home that I rent out.

My ideal would be

-- tri-mode (photoelectric + ionization + carbon monoxide)
-- interconnected (all sound when one trips)
-- operate whether power is on or off
-- loud

Current code for new construction requires

- ac/dc power (hardwired with battery backup)
- interconnected (all det's must sound when one goes into alarm)
- smoke detectors located as follows: at least one on each level of
house; one in each sleeping room, and one outside each sleeping room.

A nice enhancement would be if you could find a product that also has
the option of having one detector with a form C relay contact so that
if you have an alarm panel, then your alarm panel can report a fire as
well as intrusion to your monitoring company with just a little more
wiring.

I wouldn't necessarily use combo photo/ions everywhere because some
areas might be prone to false alarms (you may find that by code you
need one near your kitchen for example, where an ion wouldn't be
appropriate.) The detector should be chosen with the area in which
it's going to be installed considered.

When you're wiring up the smokes, you need to use 14/3 or 12/3 cable
(as appropriate for the circuit) as the black and white wires are used
as normal for 120VAC power and the red wire is used for the
interconnect. So you may have to check your box fill if you are using
shallow octagon boxes.

good luck

nate

On 2/4/2011 1:03 AM, Edward Reid wrote:
I have two smoke detectors in my house which are over 8 years old,
plus one CO detector. Since the smoke detectors are near end of life,
I'd like to improve the coverage. I also need new detectors in a
mobile home that I rent out.

My ideal would be

-- tri-mode (photoelectric + ionization + carbon monoxide)
-- interconnected (all sound when one trips)
-- operate whether power is on or off
-- loud

I realize that I probably can't have it all, so I'm looking for the
best compromise. I haven't found any place with really comprehensive
listings, especially any which make it easy to determine what models
meet which of my criteria. Consumer Reports has good descriptions of
the issues but analyzes very few models.

So I'm looking for advice both on what compromises are most
reasonable, and on specific models (possibly multiple models in
combination) which might implement that compromise. I appreciate
resources as well as direct information.

Notes on each of my items:

I probably don't need to explain why I want tri-mode -- anyone not
familiar with the types can easily google them. I'm willing to spring
for multiple detectors if there are no satisfactory tri-mode detectors
available. (I haven't found any tri-mode detectors in a single unit.)

The advantage of interconnection should be obvious. Same for loud.

I'm unsure whether I want AC powered or battery powered. AC powered
work without needing to change batteries and have plenty of power for
a loud alarm. Battery powered operate when the power is out; I don't
know if any of these can be interconnected. I know there are some AC
powered with battery backup, but then that's still a battery to
monitor and replace.

The big question with respect to AC vs battery is which is more
effective overall. Power isn't out very much, but it does go out. In
the house it probably averages a few hours a year -- once it was out
for 18 hours after a severe thunderstorm, but usually it's not more
than an hour or two, and it goes for months with no interruption at
all. The mobile home is in a rural area and outages can be longer; it
was without power for 3-1/2 days after Hurricane Kate, about 25 years
ago. But are there any common factors to fire and power outage?
Anything about a power outage that makes fire more likely? (Using
candles and kerosene lamps would seem a significant risk. I have
battery operated lights instead.) Perhaps an electrical malfunction
could start a fire but then trip the breaker powering the detectors
before they sound the alarm? On the other side, weak batteries are an
obvious risk, albeit one which regular testing ameliorates. So neither
is perfect, but what are the probabilities of a multiple failure? That
is, power outage plus fire, or battery failure plus fire, or alarm not
loud enough plus fire, etc? Are there other common mode failures?

In the house, I can easily run AC wiring and/or interconnection wiring
in the attic. In the mobile home, I might be able to run it above the
ceiling, or I could gouge a trough in the ceiling tile or just run it
along the upper corners -- the place doesn't look good enough for me
to worry about the damage.

Edward
I don't have specific recommendations by brand, but I suggest that you
not buy a multimode unit. I did some research and the average life
span of a CO monitor is 5 years, after that the sensor deteriorates.
But the life span of a smoke detector is longer than that. So you
need to replace the CO detector every 5 years, and if you have
multimode you will have to replace the whole thing.

Bill

On Feb 4, 7:22*am, notbob wrote:
On 2011-02-04, Edward Reid wrote:

-- loud
The big question with respect to AC vs battery is which is more
effective overall.

The most effective (loud) smoke alarm I ever saw (heard?) was a Sears
model AC alarm. *The damn thing was so loud, it actually physically
took me aback. *No doubt it would literally blow one out of their bed,
a good thing. *

OTOH, I can see the advantage of a battery alarm. *I can't recommend
any. *

I will say this about CO2 detectors. *The Kidde digital readout model
I bought ($20) seems to be junk. *Doesn't reset to zero, never reads
anthing but "28", and never "alarms". *I have a rock that works as
effectively.

nb *

My loudest alarm is a small battery smoke detector that drive me and
the cats crazy every time I burn
the food. I also bought a small battery CO alarm for $20 and its not
too good. Maybe its just slow to react.
I was looking at a CO detector I bought on sale 3 years ago cheap. I'm
reading the box and its got
a battery backup, and the whole thing will not work if the battery is
dead, even though its
AC connected. I'm sure the unit is probably over the life of the
lithium battery, maybe.

CO detectors are also a good backup smoke detector. They inherently
detect a fire or smoke.

greg

RBM wrote:


"Edward Reid" wrote in message
...
I have two smoke detectors in my house which are over 8 years old,
plus one CO detector. Since the smoke detectors are near end of
life,
I'd like to improve the coverage. I also need new detectors in a
mobile home that I rent out.

My ideal would be

-- tri-mode (photoelectric + ionization + carbon monoxide)
-- interconnected (all sound when one trips)
-- operate whether power is on or off
-- loud

I realize that I probably can't have it all, so I'm looking for the
best compromise. I haven't found any place with really
comprehensive
listings, especially any which make it easy to determine what
models
meet which of my criteria. Consumer Reports has good descriptions
of
the issues but analyzes very few models.

So I'm looking for advice both on what compromises are most
reasonable, and on specific models (possibly multiple models in
combination) which might implement that compromise. I appreciate
resources as well as direct information.

Notes on each of my items:

I probably don't need to explain why I want tri-mode -- anyone not
familiar with the types can easily google them. I'm willing to
spring
for multiple detectors if there are no satisfactory tri-mode
detectors
available. (I haven't found any tri-mode detectors in a single
unit.)

The advantage of interconnection should be obvious. Same for loud.

I'm unsure whether I want AC powered or battery powered. AC powered
work without needing to change batteries and have plenty of power
for
a loud alarm. Battery powered operate when the power is out; I
don't
know if any of these can be interconnected. I know there are some
AC
powered with battery backup, but then that's still a battery to
monitor and replace.

The big question with respect to AC vs battery is which is more
effective overall. Power isn't out very much, but it does go out.
In
the house it probably averages a few hours a year -- once it was
out
for 18 hours after a severe thunderstorm, but usually it's not more
than an hour or two, and it goes for months with no interruption at
all. The mobile home is in a rural area and outages can be longer;
it
was without power for 3-1/2 days after Hurricane Kate, about 25
years
ago. But are there any common factors to fire and power outage?
Anything about a power outage that makes fire more likely? (Using
candles and kerosene lamps would seem a significant risk. I have
battery operated lights instead.) Perhaps an electrical malfunction
could start a fire but then trip the breaker powering the detectors
before they sound the alarm? On the other side, weak batteries are
an
obvious risk, albeit one which regular testing ameliorates. So
neither
is perfect, but what are the probabilities of a multiple failure?
That
is, power outage plus fire, or battery failure plus fire, or alarm
not
loud enough plus fire, etc? Are there other common mode failures?

In the house, I can easily run AC wiring and/or interconnection
wiring
in the attic. In the mobile home, I might be able to run it above
the
ceiling, or I could gouge a trough in the ceiling tile or just run
it
along the upper corners -- the place doesn't look good enough for
me
to worry about the damage.

Edward

The current NFPA requirements are that smokes be installed in every
bedroom and one on every level, all interconnected, and have a back
up
power supply.

The NFPA has been struggling for years to figure out why people
disable
their smoke detectors. I think the answer is that when there is a
failure
at 3 AM, and every smoke in your house blows off, scaring the snot
out of
everyone in the house, the instinct is to rip them out of the
ceiling.
Personally, I don't like the idea of the interconnections, because
you
don't know where the potential fire is. If only the smoke that
detects the
fire went off, you'd have a better idea where to run to, or from.
Just my
2 cents.

You don't have to monitor the smoke batteries, they all have a beep
warning when they're low. I would use a Kidde combination smoke CO2,
120
volt with 9 volt battery. I've had the fewest failures with Kidde

People disable them because some are too damn sensitive. You want to
be warned of a fire, not fried eggs and bacon.
--
LSMFT

On Feb 4, 10:51*am, LSMFT wrote:
RBM wrote:

"Edward Reid" wrote in message
.. .
I have two smoke detectors in my house which are over 8 years old,
plus one CO detector. Since the smoke detectors are near end of
life,
I'd like to improve the coverage. I also need new detectors in a
mobile home that I rent out.

My ideal would be

-- tri-mode (photoelectric + ionization + carbon monoxide)
-- interconnected (all sound when one trips)
-- operate whether power is on or off
-- loud

I realize that I probably can't have it all, so I'm looking for the
best compromise. I haven't found any place with really
comprehensive
listings, especially any which make it easy to determine what
models
meet which of my criteria. Consumer Reports has good descriptions
of
the issues but analyzes very few models.

So I'm looking for advice both on what compromises are most
reasonable, and on specific models (possibly multiple models in
combination) which might implement that compromise. I appreciate
resources as well as direct information.

Notes on each of my items:

I probably don't need to explain why I want tri-mode -- anyone not
familiar with the types can easily google them. I'm willing to
spring
for multiple detectors if there are no satisfactory tri-mode
detectors
available. (I haven't found any tri-mode detectors in a single
unit.)

The advantage of interconnection should be obvious. Same for loud.

I'm unsure whether I want AC powered or battery powered. AC powered
work without needing to change batteries and have plenty of power
for
a loud alarm. Battery powered operate when the power is out; I
don't
know if any of these can be interconnected. I know there are some
AC
powered with battery backup, but then that's still a battery to
monitor and replace.

The big question with respect to AC vs battery is which is more
effective overall. Power isn't out very much, but it does go out.
In
the house it probably averages a few hours a year -- once it was
out
for 18 hours after a severe thunderstorm, but usually it's not more
than an hour or two, and it goes for months with no interruption at
all. The mobile home is in a rural area and outages can be longer;
it
was without power for 3-1/2 days after Hurricane Kate, about 25
years
ago. But are there any common factors to fire and power outage?
Anything about a power outage that makes fire more likely? (Using
candles and kerosene lamps would seem a significant risk. I have
battery operated lights instead.) Perhaps an electrical malfunction
could start a fire but then trip the breaker powering the detectors
before they sound the alarm? On the other side, weak batteries are
an
obvious risk, albeit one which regular testing ameliorates. So
neither
is perfect, but what are the probabilities of a multiple failure?
That
is, power outage plus fire, or battery failure plus fire, or alarm
not
loud enough plus fire, etc? Are there other common mode failures?

In the house, I can easily run AC wiring and/or interconnection
wiring
in the attic. In the mobile home, I might be able to run it above
the
ceiling, or I could gouge a trough in the ceiling tile or just run
it
along the upper corners -- the place doesn't look good enough for
me
to worry about the damage.

Edward

The current NFPA requirements are that smokes be installed in every
bedroom and one on every level, all interconnected, and have a back
up
power supply.

The NFPA has been struggling for years to figure out why people
disable
their smoke detectors. I think the answer is that when there is a
failure
at 3 AM, and every smoke in your house blows off, scaring the snot
out of
everyone in the house, the instinct is to rip them out of the
ceiling.
Personally, I don't like the idea of the interconnections, because
you
don't know where the potential fire is. If only the smoke that
detects the
fire went off, you'd have a better idea where to run to, or from.
Just my
2 cents.

You don't have to monitor the smoke batteries, they all have a beep
warning when they're low. I would use a Kidde combination smoke CO2,
120
volt with 9 volt battery. I've had the fewest failures with Kidde

People disable them because some are too damn sensitive. You want to
be warned of a fire, not fried eggs and bacon.
--
LSMFT

Speak for yourself. If there's fried eggs and bacon in the house, I
damn sure want to be notified of it

nate

"RBM" wrote in message
...

stuff snipped

The NFPA has been struggling for years to figure out why people disable
their smoke detectors. I think the answer is that when there is a failure
at
3 AM, and every smoke in your house blows off, scaring the snot out of
everyone in the house, the instinct is to rip them out of the ceiling.

A safety feature isn't really a safety feature if it's so prone to falsing.
Nasal Radiators I've known complained that during the Vietnam war, cockpit
warning systems were often disabled for that very reason.

Personally, I don't like the idea of the interconnections, because you
don't
know where the potential fire is. If only the smoke that detects the fire
went off, you'd have a better idea where to run to, or from. Just my 2
cents.

That's precisely why I dislike them. I want to know where the trouble is so
a small greasefire doesn't turn into a holocaust. I know the common wisdom
is to run, run, run but I've lived through fires and what the fire didn't
burn, the firemen drowned. If there's a chance I can put it out with one of
the many fire extinguisher located around the house, I'm going to go for it.
We have two smokes and one fire extinguisher in each room - a result of
having lived through two fires. Of course, when you wake up and you can't
see because the smoke is as thick as cotton, that's when it's time to trot,
bwana. Same is true when your feet stick to the floor because the varnish
has melted from the heat. No extinguisher is going to put that fire out.

--
Bobby G.

Thanks for all the comments. As expected, no clear answers, but more
ideas to think about.

Edward

In article , "RBM"
wrote:

The NFPA has been struggling for years to figure out why people disable
their smoke detectors. I think the answer is that when there is a failure at
3 AM, and every smoke in your house blows off, scaring the snot out of
everyone in the house, the instinct is to rip them out of the ceiling.

Only when it happens once a month for four months in a row, for
absolutely no discernible reason. Smoke alarms are like car alarms:
99.999% are false alarms.