SMS wrote:

On 1/26/2011 2:57 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Ice cream has survived as a half gallon for decades, at least 6 that I'm
aware of. It is more costly to pack the smaller cartons. A hundred
gallon batch of ice cream used to take 200 containers. Now it takes 266
containers for that batch. Given that the physical size and material is
changed little, the smaller containers won't be that much cheaper. As a
consumer, I'm being made to pay for that waste of resources.

When I was in Florida, I was in Publix supermarket, and they make a big
deal of the fact that their store brand ice cream cartons are still 1/2
gallon. It was also pretty good ice cream, especially now that Breyer's
has decontented their product and is adding the same additives that the
cheaper brands have been using for a long time.

http://www.allbusiness.com/retail-trade/clothing-clothing-accessories-stores-stores/279631-1.html

Unfortunately, we have no supermarkets that are the caliber of Publix in
California, and they probably aren't going to expand out here,
especially since the cashiers in the big supermarket chains here are
unionized and make a living wage (last time I heard it was around $17 an
hour).

You can live on $17/hr in CA???

"SMS" wrote in message
...
On 1/26/2011 11:26 AM, Josh wrote:

Around us, many of the U-Haul truck rental places sell propane (not an
exchange; they fill your tank). It's metered (sold per pound or
gallon; I can't remember), so you don't lose out if the tank isn't
empty. The total price for a full tank is generally less than any
exchange price I've seen.

In my very urban part of Silicon Valley, everyone uses natural gas for
heating (and hot water) and I've never seen a house that uses propane for
anything. Yet within 1/2 mile there is a gasoline station with propane,
and several more places within a few miles. We're not a big RV area
either.

Lots of people use it for barbecues (s'cuuuuuuuuz me, grills), for camping,
emergency use, metal cutting, propane torches, lots of things.

Steve

On 1/26/2011 12:29 PM, Hell Toupee wrote:
On 1/26/2011 7:50 AM, SMS wrote:

The tank exchanges are for people that are either lazy or clueless.
You can take your tank to a gas station that sells propane and get a
full tank for the same, or a lower, price than the tank exchanges. You
also get to give your $ to a local business rather than to Home Depot
or Wal-Mart, or Walgreen's.

There are areas - particularly urban ones - where one's options for
getting propane are very limited. The tank exchange may be all that's
available.
I live in a city where no one heats with propane, so there are no
large-scale distributors of it. No gas stations that sell it - except
for a few who offer the tank exchanges. I'm lucky enough to have in my
vicinity a small hardware store that fills tanks, and also an RV repair
shop that fills tanks - but in most of the city, the only option is a
tank exchange. If all you're doing with the tank is using it for a gas
grill or patio heater, I can see where it's not going to be a big enough
deal to bother driving a distance to get a tank filled. Just grab one
from the exchange and be done with it.

Almost all rental joints refill bottles. And any rv joint can do it also.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

On 1/26/2011 12:40 PM, Hell Toupee wrote:
On 1/26/2011 12:29 PM, Hell Toupee wrote:

I'm lucky enough to have in my
vicinity a small hardware store that fills tanks, and also an RV
repair shop that fills tanks

I forgot to mention that the hardware store charges a flat fee per fill,
per tank. If you bring in a partially-filled tank you pay the same as if
the tank were empty. The RV shop, on the other hand, charges for only
the amount of propane that is pumped into the tank.

why would you bring in one that wasn't empty?

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

On Wed, 26 Jan 2011 19:15:20 -0600, Steve Barker
wrote:


why would you bring in one that wasn't empty?

I can think of maybe two reasons.

1) DIYer doesn't know the tank is partially filled.

2) Vegas show girls demand better.

Oh, leaving town...need a fill up.

George wrote:

Still sleazy. People are accustomed to buying certain things. If they
need to raise the price on the 2 lb container or 16 oz bag or whatever
then do it. Don't be sleazy about it and package it in a smaller size

It's not that cut and dried. And I'm speaking as someone who once wrote Frito
Lay about the practice, so I'm not defending the companies to do it.

Consider an individual who has $2 to spend on a bag of chips. Frito Lay can
raise the price of the bag to $2.25 and lose that customer or lower the amount
in the bag and keep the customer. What should they do?

On Wed, 26 Jan 2011 09:26:55 -0800, "Steve B"
wrote:


"SMS" wrote

The tank exchanges are for people that are either lazy or clueless. You
can take your tank to a gas station that sells propane and get a full tank
for the same, or a lower, price than the tank exchanges. You also get to
give your $ to a local business rather than to Home Depot or Wal-Mart, or
Walgreen's.

Agreed. Although I do have exchange facilities near me, I take mine to my
local propane supplier, and get a MUCH better price. Why anyone would pay
the rates at the exchange places is beyond me, especially when there are
propane dealers very close by.

Because they're after 5:00PM and on weekends.

On Wed, 26 Jan 2011 12:59:09 -0800, SMS wrote:

On 1/26/2011 11:26 AM, Josh wrote:

Around us, many of the U-Haul truck rental places sell propane (not an
exchange; they fill your tank). It's metered (sold per pound or
gallon; I can't remember), so you don't lose out if the tank isn't
empty. The total price for a full tank is generally less than any
exchange price I've seen.

In my very urban part of Silicon Valley, everyone uses natural gas for
heating (and hot water) and I've never seen a house that uses propane
for anything. Yet within 1/2 mile there is a gasoline station with
propane, and several more places within a few miles. We're not a big RV
area either.

Our fireplace is propane and we're seriously looking at a "dual-fuel" oven
(it'll cost something like $1K to run the propane line around the house).
Natural gas isn't available in the area.

Percival P. Cassidy wrote:

While waiting for my wife outside a store yesterday, I passed the time
by reading the information on the "Blue Rhino" propane tank exchange
setup. No surprises until I got to the bottom and discovered that the
"Full" tanks contain only 15lb of propane. I thought that the "regular"
small propane tanks held 20lb.

How many people are thinking that they are getting 20lb (as they would
if they took their own tanks to a refilling station) for a good price
but getting only 15lb?

Perce

Appartently, 20lb is how much a tank will hold if FULL of liquid propane. It
can't be filled full, since some space is required for it to vaporize. Blue
Rhino puts 15lb in a tank, but it can hold more.

I get propane at a store that uses a company called "Heritage Propane" that
puts in 17lb (for about the same price).

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us

"The beginning of wisdom is found in doubting; by doubting we come to
the question, and by seeking we may come upon the truth." -- Pierre
Abelard

" wrote in
:

On Wed, 26 Jan 2011 09:26:55 -0800, "Steve B"
wrote:


"SMS" wrote

The tank exchanges are for people that are either lazy or clueless.
You can take your tank to a gas station that sells propane and get a
full tank for the same, or a lower, price than the tank exchanges.
You also get to give your $ to a local business rather than to Home
Depot or Wal-Mart, or Walgreen's.

Agreed. Although I do have exchange facilities near me, I take mine
to my local propane supplier, and get a MUCH better price. Why anyone
would pay the rates at the exchange places is beyond me, especially
when there are propane dealers very close by.

Because they're after 5:00PM and on weekends.


so's any Ace Hardware.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

In article ,
Robert Neville wrote:



Consider an individual who has $2 to spend on a bag of chips. Frito Lay can
raise the price of the bag to $2.25 and lose that customer or lower the amount
in the bag and keep the customer. What should they do?

Simple. Let's say they used to sell a 6 oz. bag, and they want to sell a
5 oz. bag for the same price. So they should just reprint the 6 oz. bags
with a big proclamation that says "20% MORE, FREE" and in tiny letters:
"than our regular 5 oz. bag."

After a few months, discontinue the promotion, and go back to what has
now become the "regular" 5 oz. size.

?
wrote

Our fireplace is propane and we're seriously looking at a "dual-fuel" oven
(it'll cost something like $1K to run the propane line around the house).
Natural gas isn't available in the area.

IMO, cooking with gas is worth it. Maybe it would be cheaper to put in a
second tank for the range.

?
wrote in message
On Jan 26, 5:57 am, "Ed Pawlowski" wrote:
Ice cream has survived as a half gallon for decades, at least 6 that I'm
aware of. It is more costly to pack the smaller cartons. A hundred
gallon
batch of ice cream used to take 200 containers. Now it takes 266
containers
for that batch. Given that the physical size and material is changed
little, the smaller containers won't be that much cheaper. As a
consumer,
I'm being made to pay for that waste of resources.

Yes, but the total number of containers shipped remains the same.

That either means they have reduced batch size to 75 gallons, or they
only make three 100-gallon batches where they used to make four.

Either way, the ingredient cost is reduced by 25%, while revenue stays
the same.

But the cost of packaging still went up and we're paying for the waste.
Used to be, many products were sold in the "large economy size" for just
that reason.

?
wrote

A so-called "20lb" propane tank can only "safely" hold 17 or 18lbs of
liquid propane. Calling it a "20lb" tank was sleazy marketing from the
get-go. Properly filled tanks have NEVER had 20lbs of propane in them.


The weight of that empty so-call 20 pound tank is . . . . . . . . . . .
Wow, who'da thunk it.

"Ed Pawlowski" wrote:

Used to be, many products were sold in the "large economy size" for just
that reason.

That's very true... The cost of packaging and distribution can far exceed the
cost of the actual contents. Makes you wonder why they resize packaging except
that when you are shipping a million or more of each package, saving a few cents
per item adds up quickly.

On Wed, 26 Jan 2011 20:41:05 -0600, Jim Yanik wrote:

" wrote in
:

On Wed, 26 Jan 2011 09:26:55 -0800, "Steve B"
wrote:


"SMS" wrote

The tank exchanges are for people that are either lazy or clueless.
You can take your tank to a gas station that sells propane and get a
full tank for the same, or a lower, price than the tank exchanges.
You also get to give your $ to a local business rather than to Home
Depot or Wal-Mart, or Walgreen's.

Agreed. Although I do have exchange facilities near me, I take mine
to my local propane supplier, and get a MUCH better price. Why anyone
would pay the rates at the exchange places is beyond me, especially
when there are propane dealers very close by.

Because they're after 5:00PM and on weekends.


so's any Ace Hardware.

Not just any Ace Hardware sells propane. Most don't. The grocery stores do
exchanges 24x7, though. I've always thought a second tank was a cheaper
option, though.

On Wed, 26 Jan 2011 22:50:31 -0500, "Ed Pawlowski" wrote:

?
wrote

Our fireplace is propane and we're seriously looking at a "dual-fuel" oven
(it'll cost something like $1K to run the propane line around the house).
Natural gas isn't available in the area.

IMO, cooking with gas is worth it. Maybe it would be cheaper to put in a
second tank for the range.

I thought about that, too. The guy from the gas company didn't think it was a
good idea, even though they'd be getting the additional rental. I thought
about relocating the existing tank to the other side (run the trench the other
way where it would be easier to fill. He didn't think that was necessary
either. We'll likely get him back out to give us a better estimate and talk
it over again.

"Steve Barker" wrote
why would you bring in one that wasn't empty?

--
Steve Barker

Uh, you have one that is almost empty, and you want to cook something that
will take three hours ...............

You're going camping, and want to just take a full tank ..................

You don't want to make an extra trip, so you round the low ones up and have
them all filled ..........................

Then only charge you for what you put in them, so what's the difference
...................

Steve

"Jim Yanik" wrote in message
4...
" wrote in
:

On Wed, 26 Jan 2011 09:26:55 -0800, "Steve B"
wrote:


"SMS" wrote

The tank exchanges are for people that are either lazy or clueless.
You can take your tank to a gas station that sells propane and get a
full tank for the same, or a lower, price than the tank exchanges.
You also get to give your $ to a local business rather than to Home
Depot or Wal-Mart, or Walgreen's.

Agreed. Although I do have exchange facilities near me, I take mine
to my local propane supplier, and get a MUCH better price. Why anyone
would pay the rates at the exchange places is beyond me, especially
when there are propane dealers very close by.

Because they're after 5:00PM and on weekends.


so's any Ace Hardware.


I have several Ace Hardwares in my area, and none sell propane.

Steve

"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
...
?
wrote

Our fireplace is propane and we're seriously looking at a "dual-fuel"
oven
(it'll cost something like $1K to run the propane line around the house).
Natural gas isn't available in the area.

IMO, cooking with gas is worth it. Maybe it would be cheaper to put in a
second tank for the range.

You must have a big property. Mine was $1.29 a foot.

Steve

On Wed, 26 Jan 2011 21:00:35 -0800, "Steve B"
wrote:


"Jim Yanik" wrote in message
. 44...
" wrote in
:

On Wed, 26 Jan 2011 09:26:55 -0800, "Steve B"
wrote:


"SMS" wrote

The tank exchanges are for people that are either lazy or clueless.
You can take your tank to a gas station that sells propane and get a
full tank for the same, or a lower, price than the tank exchanges.
You also get to give your $ to a local business rather than to Home
Depot or Wal-Mart, or Walgreen's.

Agreed. Although I do have exchange facilities near me, I take mine
to my local propane supplier, and get a MUCH better price. Why anyone
would pay the rates at the exchange places is beyond me, especially
when there are propane dealers very close by.

Because they're after 5:00PM and on weekends.


so's any Ace Hardware.


I have several Ace Hardwares in my area, and none sell propane.

There are no Ace Hardware stores around here and they don't sell propane
either. ;-)

On Wed, 26 Jan 2011 21:01:32 -0800, "Steve B"
wrote:


"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
m...
?
wrote

Our fireplace is propane and we're seriously looking at a "dual-fuel"
oven
(it'll cost something like $1K to run the propane line around the house).
Natural gas isn't available in the area.

IMO, cooking with gas is worth it. Maybe it would be cheaper to put in a
second tank for the range.

You must have a big property. Mine was $1.29 a foot.

Something around 100' to 125' (can't remember). They have to dig around three
sides of my house and somewhat into the yard (around the back porch). It was
that much just for the pipe. Mexicans were extra.

On 1/26/2011 9:02 PM, Robert Neville wrote:
wrote:

Still sleazy. People are accustomed to buying certain things. If they
need to raise the price on the 2 lb container or 16 oz bag or whatever
then do it. Don't be sleazy about it and package it in a smaller size

It's not that cut and dried. And I'm speaking as someone who once wrote Frito
Lay about the practice, so I'm not defending the companies to do it.

Do you work for the marketing department of one of the sleezy mega food
producers? That is the exact spin one of them gave the other day "we
help people afford things" not we shrink standard packages..


Consider an individual who has $2 to spend on a bag of chips. Frito Lay can
raise the price of the bag to $2.25 and lose that customer or lower the amount
in the bag and keep the customer. What should they do?

I can't imagine that idea is any more than statistical noise.

On 1/26/2011 5:08 PM, Pete C. wrote:

SMS wrote:

On 1/26/2011 2:57 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Ice cream has survived as a half gallon for decades, at least 6 that I'm
aware of. It is more costly to pack the smaller cartons. A hundred
gallon batch of ice cream used to take 200 containers. Now it takes 266
containers for that batch. Given that the physical size and material is
changed little, the smaller containers won't be that much cheaper. As a
consumer, I'm being made to pay for that waste of resources.

When I was in Florida, I was in Publix supermarket, and they make a big
deal of the fact that their store brand ice cream cartons are still 1/2
gallon. It was also pretty good ice cream, especially now that Breyer's
has decontented their product and is adding the same additives that the
cheaper brands have been using for a long time.

http://www.allbusiness.com/retail-trade/clothing-clothing-accessories-stores-stores/279631-1.html

Unfortunately, we have no supermarkets that are the caliber of Publix in
California, and they probably aren't going to expand out here,
especially since the cashiers in the big supermarket chains here are
unionized and make a living wage (last time I heard it was around $17 an
hour).

You can live on $17/hr in CA???

Don't get out much do you? One of the issues we have in this country is
the fact that we have become a largely service economy. Fewer and fewer
belong to what used to be known as the middle class. The millions of
manufacturing jobs that allowed folks to raise a family, buy a house
whatever are gone. $17/hour is actually something to aspire to for a lot
of folks. There is a good reason who outfits like walmart can claim with
a big smirk "see, we aren't so bad, we opened the Smithville store and
8,000 applied for work." Where else are they going to go?

Good value, but not legal. 80% fill, max.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Mark Lloyd" wrote in message
om...

Appartently, 20lb is how much a tank will hold if FULL of
liquid propane. It
can't be filled full, since some space is required for it to
vaporize. Blue
Rhino puts 15lb in a tank, but it can hold more.

I get propane at a store that uses a company called
"Heritage Propane" that
puts in 17lb (for about the same price).

--
Mark Lloyd

George wrote:

On 1/26/2011 5:08 PM, Pete C. wrote:

SMS wrote:

On 1/26/2011 2:57 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Ice cream has survived as a half gallon for decades, at least 6 that I'm
aware of. It is more costly to pack the smaller cartons. A hundred
gallon batch of ice cream used to take 200 containers. Now it takes 266
containers for that batch. Given that the physical size and material is
changed little, the smaller containers won't be that much cheaper. As a
consumer, I'm being made to pay for that waste of resources.

When I was in Florida, I was in Publix supermarket, and they make a big
deal of the fact that their store brand ice cream cartons are still 1/2
gallon. It was also pretty good ice cream, especially now that Breyer's
has decontented their product and is adding the same additives that the
cheaper brands have been using for a long time.

http://www.allbusiness.com/retail-trade/clothing-clothing-accessories-stores-stores/279631-1.html

Unfortunately, we have no supermarkets that are the caliber of Publix in
California, and they probably aren't going to expand out here,
especially since the cashiers in the big supermarket chains here are
unionized and make a living wage (last time I heard it was around $17 an
hour).

You can live on $17/hr in CA???

Don't get out much do you? One of the issues we have in this country is
the fact that we have become a largely service economy. Fewer and fewer
belong to what used to be known as the middle class. The millions of
manufacturing jobs that allowed folks to raise a family, buy a house
whatever are gone. $17/hour is actually something to aspire to for a lot
of folks. There is a good reason who outfits like walmart can claim with
a big smirk "see, we aren't so bad, we opened the Smithville store and
8,000 applied for work." Where else are they going to go?

That doesn't answer my question. Can you live on $17/hr in CA?

As for the stratified economy, that varies greatly by state, with CA
being one of the very stratified states with low end jobs, high end
jobs, and little in between.

This stratification is indeed a huge issue, and one that the left wing
simply doesn't understand. Obummer's SOTU address showed that he didn't
understand this fundamental problem either. The left wing thinks that
somehow pressuring everyone into college will somehow magically allow
them to get one of those high end jobs, and if they can't make it then
all they are good for is some low end janitorial job. This is of course
a recipe for disaster and is very much part of the growing gap between
rich and poor, a gap that ultimately leads to societal collapse if it
isn't rectified.

No country can put all it's eggs in the "knowledge economy" basket,
think that it can just export all it's "foundational" jobs to third
world countries and think that those third world countries won't catch
up and compete in the "knowledge economy". Every country needs to
maintain a diverse economy with solid midrange jobs and manufacturing
capability. Imported goods need to be strictly novelty or luxury items
as they were in the past, not critical staple items.

In article .com,
"Pete C." wrote:

That doesn't answer my question. Can you live on $17/hr in CA?

Santa Barbara is one of the more expensive cities in California, and
yes, many, many people here live on that, or less.