This is a rather big one, and I'm hoping I'll get a bit of discussion
going on this, as there's lots of angles to this, and I frankly am
curious to know what other people have come up with.

I have several rooms/zones in the house, which can be somewhat
independent from other areas in the house as far as heating goes, and
I'm wondering what my options are. I was thinking, for example, if I
knew I was going to be in the basement all day, I could turn down the
main furnace to say 68, and then use a supplementary heater to bring
just the basement up to 72.

I should add, that my basement tends to be colder than the rest of the
house, so to get my basement to 72, I would have to crank the regular
thermostat to 75 or so (which I would never do), so I would need a
supplementary heater in the basement one way or another.

What I'm looking for is a comfortable solution, that is somewhat
energy efficient. I have a high-efficiency gas furnace right now, but
I'm thinking adding electrical space heaters might actually reduce my
heating costs if I used them correctly.

Also, I don't want this to be a pain to manage. That is, I don't want
to have to walk around the whole house and adjust the vents/
temperature guages each time I switch rooms. So, what I need for that
would be some integrated smart controllers... (Am I going to far
here?). OK, while I'm dreaming, heating/cooling the zones based on
time of day, and days of the week would be nice...

I'm curious to hear what other people think / know about this

John

"John" wrote in message
...
This is a rather big one, and I'm hoping I'll get a bit of discussion
going on this, as there's lots of angles to this, and I frankly am
curious to know what other people have come up with.

I have several rooms/zones in the house, which can be somewhat
independent from other areas in the house as far as heating goes, and
I'm wondering what my options are. I was thinking, for example, if I
knew I was going to be in the basement all day, I could turn down the
main furnace to say 68, and then use a supplementary heater to bring
just the basement up to 72.

I should add, that my basement tends to be colder than the rest of the
house, so to get my basement to 72, I would have to crank the regular
thermostat to 75 or so (which I would never do), so I would need a
supplementary heater in the basement one way or another.

What I'm looking for is a comfortable solution, that is somewhat
energy efficient. I have a high-efficiency gas furnace right now, but
I'm thinking adding electrical space heaters might actually reduce my
heating costs if I used them correctly.

Also, I don't want this to be a pain to manage. That is, I don't want
to have to walk around the whole house and adjust the vents/
temperature guages each time I switch rooms. So, what I need for that
would be some integrated smart controllers... (Am I going to far
here?). OK, while I'm dreaming, heating/cooling the zones based on
time of day, and days of the week would be nice...

I'm curious to hear what other people think / know about this

John

The first thing you might want to try, is having the forced air system
balanced, so all the living spaces are heated evenly. If there were separate
zones on the existing system, you could find a way to control them however
you like, but that not being the case, you'll need to add supplemental heat
to areas that you want warmer than others. Electric heat is 100% efficient,
so dragging a portable unit to the basement or wherever, is not a bad
solution. If you're always in the basement or wherever, every Tuesday from X
to Y, you can use an appliance timer to control the heater

In article , "RBM"
wrote:

"John" wrote in message
...
This is a rather big one, snip

The first thing you might want to try, snip

I think the first thing he should try is ditching google groups, if he
wants to trigger a lively discussion with many participants.

On Jan 7, 11:25*am, John wrote:
This is a rather big one, and I'm hoping I'll get a bit of discussion
going on this, as there's lots of angles to this, and I frankly am
curious to know what other people have come up with.

I have several rooms/zones in the house, which can be somewhat
independent from other areas in the house as far as heating goes, and
I'm wondering what my options are. *I was thinking, for example, if I
knew I was going to be in the basement all day, I could turn down the
main furnace to say 68, and then use a supplementary heater to bring
just the basement up to 72.

I should add, that my basement tends to be colder than the rest of the
house, so to get my basement to 72, I would have to crank the regular
thermostat to 75 or so (which I would never do), so I would need a
supplementary heater in the basement one way or another.

What I'm looking for is a comfortable solution, that is somewhat
energy efficient. *I have a high-efficiency gas furnace right now, but
I'm thinking adding electrical space heaters might actually reduce my
heating costs if I used them correctly.

Also, I don't want this to be a pain to manage. *That is, I don't want
to have to walk around the whole house and adjust the vents/
temperature guages each time I switch rooms. *So, what I need for that
would be some integrated smart controllers... *(Am I going to far
here?). *OK, while I'm dreaming, heating/cooling the zones based on
time of day, and days of the week would be nice...

I'm curious to hear what other people think / know about this

John

I have forced air and do similar, so I cut in a 3 big vents on my
600sq ft basement that I open only when i want heat. I also open an
additional return. Its all sealable so it works. Heat rises, , cutting
off the basement only saved me 15% with a R20 basement wall and im
Zone 5, to - 20f. So the comfort lost may not be worth the cost if the
basement is insulated and sealed. Or else use a wood stove or electric
heater in the basement. a wood stove would do it well

"Ralph Mowery" wrote in message
news

"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...
"Electric heat is 100% efficient, so dragging a portable unit to
the basement or wherever, is not a bad solution. "

I've heard that hundreds of times but there is still a part that
confuses me.

Like many other houses, my basement is cooler than the rest of the
house and I occasionally will use an oil-filled radiator to warm the
space up if I need to spend time down there. I also use a small space
heater with a fan to warm up my basement shop.

I know that the heaters are "100% efficient" but all that tells me is
that all of the electricity is being used to create heat. What is
doesn't tell me is how much it's actually costing me to heat the space
with an electric heater as compared to adding more forced air ducts.

Yes, the electric heat is 100% efficiant, but it usually cost more than
many other kinds of heat. You may have to say that a heat pump is 200%
efficiant and gas and oil is 150 % efficiant compaired to the electric
heat. What you really need to know is how much each BTU is going to cost
with each type.


Exactly, the fact is, there is no waste on the user end. But it's rarely the
cheapest way to go. I kind of liken it to my utility company asking me if
I'm willing to pay more per KWH if they buy into windmills

?
"DerbyDad03" wrote
"Electric heat is 100% efficient, so dragging a portable unit to
the basement or wherever, is not a bad solution. "

I've heard that hundreds of times but there is still a part that
confuses me.

Like many other houses, my basement is cooler than the rest of the
house and I occasionally will use an oil-filled radiator to warm the
space up if I need to spend time down there. I also use a small space
heater with a fan to warm up my basement shop.

I know that the heaters are "100% efficient" but all that tells me is
that all of the electricity is being used to create heat. What is
doesn't tell me is how much it's actually costing me to heat the space
with an electric heater as compared to adding more forced air ducts.

Sometimes when I read that line, it almost appears to be saying
"Electric heat is 100% efficient so go ahead and use as many electric
heaters as you want, wherever you want, for as long as you want."

That can't be the case, right? If it was, we'd all just turn off our
forced air furnaces and go all electric. Since in most areas
electricity is more expensive than NG, why *isn't* it a bad idea to
use an electric heater as supplemental heat?

I've always had trouble getting my head around that one. Must be I'm
missing the "understanding electric heat" gene.

You have to compare on Btu for accuracy. A gallon of fuel oil is 138,700
Btu. At 85% efficiency 117,895 will reach the heated space. That means you
need 34kW of electricity for the same heat. Today, oil is about $3 a gallon
and in my area, electric would cost $6.20 for the same amount of heat. 1kW
= 3412 Btu.

You can do some rough comparisons with different fuel here
http://hearth.com/econtent/index.php...on_calculator/

When you see those expensive electric heaters on sale, you are getting
screwed on initial cost as well as the potential savings. I can heat a big
portion of my house for the same as a single room with a space heater. I'm
also glad I replace my old boiler two years ago as the savings are even
greater with the high oil costs.

On Jan 7, 11:23*pm, "Ed Pawlowski" wrote:
?
"DerbyDad03" wrote





"Electric heat is 100% efficient, so dragging a portable unit to
the basement or wherever, is not a bad solution. "

I've heard that hundreds of times but there is still a part that
confuses me.

Like many other houses, my basement is cooler than the rest of the
house and I occasionally will use an oil-filled radiator to warm the
space up if I need to spend time down there. I also use a small space
heater with a fan to warm up my basement shop.

I know that the heaters are "100% efficient" but all that tells me is
that all of the electricity is being used to create heat. What is
doesn't tell me is how much it's actually costing me to heat the space
with an electric heater as compared to adding more forced air ducts.

Sometimes when I read that line, it almost appears to be saying
"Electric heat is 100% efficient so go ahead and use as many electric
heaters as you want, wherever you want, for as long as you want."

That can't be the case, right? If it was, we'd all just turn off our
forced air furnaces and go all electric. Since in most areas
electricity is more expensive than NG, why *isn't* it a bad idea to
use an electric heater as supplemental heat?

The key here is "supplemental". Even though electric heat is the
most expensive,
if you just use one electric heater to warm one room that you are
going to be in
for a long time, while turning down the heat in the rest of the house,
you can save
money.

Also, there are different types of electric heaters. If you're going
to be sitting at a
desk for 8 hours, you could use a radiant electric heater. Instead of
heating the whole
room, it heats mostly you and the immediate area arround you, via
radiant energy.
That saves by not heating the whole room, further reducing the energy
used. If you use
a radiant heater like that, turn down the heat in the rest of the
house to 60, I'd bet you
would come out ahead, especially in a large house that is poorly
insulated.

It's the above factors that lead to the misleading marketing from
shysters selling
way over priced "miracle" heaters, that drastically reduce your energy
consumption.
What they are claiming is true to a point, but the real savings come
from the above,
not some new technology miracle from China....

On Jan 8, 9:09*am, wrote:
On Jan 7, 11:23*pm, "Ed Pawlowski" wrote:



?
"DerbyDad03" wrote

"Electric heat is 100% efficient, so dragging a portable unit to
the basement or wherever, is not a bad solution. "

I've heard that hundreds of times but there is still a part that
confuses me.

Like many other houses, my basement is cooler than the rest of the
house and I occasionally will use an oil-filled radiator to warm the
space up if I need to spend time down there. I also use a small space
heater with a fan to warm up my basement shop.

I know that the heaters are "100% efficient" but all that tells me is
that all of the electricity is being used to create heat. What is
doesn't tell me is how much it's actually costing me to heat the space
with an electric heater as compared to adding more forced air ducts.

Sometimes when I read that line, it almost appears to be saying
"Electric heat is 100% efficient so go ahead and use as many electric
heaters as you want, wherever you want, for as long as you want."

That can't be the case, right? If it was, we'd all just turn off our
forced air furnaces and go all electric. Since in most areas
electricity is more expensive than NG, why *isn't* it a bad idea to
use an electric heater as supplemental heat?

The key here is "supplemental". * Even though electric heat is the
most expensive,
if you just use one electric heater to warm one room that you are
going to be in
for a long time, while turning down the heat in the rest of the house,
you can save
money.

Also, there are different types of electric heaters. *If you're going
to be sitting at a
desk for 8 hours, you could use a radiant electric heater. *Instead of
heating the whole
room, it heats mostly you and the immediate area arround you, via
radiant energy.
That saves by not heating the whole room, further reducing the energy
used. *If you use
a radiant heater like that, turn down the heat in the rest of the
house to 60, I'd bet you
would come out ahead, especially in a large house that is poorly
insulated.

It's the above factors that lead to the misleading marketing from
shysters selling
way over priced "miracle" heaters, that drastically reduce your energy
consumption.
What they are claiming is true to a point, but the real savings come
from the above,
not some new technology miracle from China....

OK, so let's toss this in:

Let's say I run an electric oil filled heater to keep my basement a
bit more comfortable, but don't turn the main thermostat down. At
first blush, we'd assume it's costing me more, right?

How do we factor in the heat that rises and both warms the sub-floor
(there'd be *some* radiant heat into the first floor, wouldn't there?)
and also enters the first floor through the kitchen door?

How do we factor in the fact that the basement air is now warmer and
when it gets sucked into the furnace around the filter slot, it won't
reduce the temperature of the air in the return as much?

While I'm sure it wouldn't completely offset the cost of running the
heater, it has to bring it down some, right?

Finally, my furnace uses the basement air for the combustion air. Does
the warmer air help or hinder the combustion process?

?
"DerbyDad03" wrote

OK, so let's toss this in:

Let's say I run an electric oil filled heater to keep my basement a
bit more comfortable, but don't turn the main thermostat down. At
first blush, we'd assume it's costing me more, right?

How do we factor in the heat that rises and both warms the sub-floor
(there'd be *some* radiant heat into the first floor, wouldn't there?)
and also enters the first floor through the kitchen door?

How do we factor in the fact that the basement air is now warmer and
when it gets sucked into the furnace around the filter slot, it won't
reduce the temperature of the air in the return as much?

While I'm sure it wouldn't completely offset the cost of running the
heater, it has to bring it down some, right?

Finally, my furnace uses the basement air for the combustion air. Does
the warmer air help or hinder the combustion process?


Still going to cost more. As the heat rises, the thermostat is going to be
satisfied and not call for heat so you continue to use the more expensive
electric heat. Sure, the basement is more comfortable, but at a cost.

Hot air going into combustion is slightly more efficient than cold air
going it. I forget the number, but you can gain a few percent with enough
of a temperature rise of combustion air but all that warmed air you are
burning is being replaced by infiltration of cold air in the house anyway.
To increase the efficiency, duct in fresh air for combustion and do not use
the circulated heated air at all. That is the way all high efficiency
burners work today. Required by code in some places.

The only way electric heat saves money is to greatly reduce the amount of
heated needed in unused rooms. If you use the examples I used yesterday,
for every Btu of electric I'd use, I'd have to reduce the oil heat use by
twice that just to break even. I tried it one month and it was a costly
experiment.

There are things you can do to improve efficiency, but there is no changing
the laws of physics. You want heat, you pay for it one way or another.

On Jan 9, 1:40*am, "Ed Pawlowski" wrote:
?
"DerbyDad03" wrote







OK, so let's toss this in:

Let's say I run an electric oil filled heater to keep my basement a
bit more comfortable, but don't turn the main thermostat down. *At
first blush, we'd assume it's costing me more, right?

I can't see any way that it would not cost more.
First, you're heating an additional space with electric. Second, even
if
all the heat made it's way to the rest of the house, you're generating
that
heat with electric, not your main fuel, which was oil or gas, right?
Given
the relative costs of those fuels, and even allowing for 100% eff of
electric
and say 80% for gas/oil, it's still almost always expensive to
generate the
same amount of heat with electric.



How do we factor in the heat that rises and both warms the sub-floor
(there'd be *some* radiant heat into the first floor, wouldn't there?)
and also enters the first floor through the kitchen door?

Sure, you get some benefit from some of the heat from the basement
electric heater making it's way to the rest of the house. But I would
bet
that it's not a very large percentage of the heat.



How do we factor in the fact that the basement air is now warmer and
when it gets sucked into the furnace around the filter slot, it won't
reduce the temperature of the air in the return as much?

If that's happening, I'd seal up those duct leaks. But yes, under
current
assumptions, that heat too is getting transfered to the rest of the
house.



While I'm sure it wouldn't completely offset the cost of running the
heater, it has to bring it down some, right?

Yes, but I wouldn't bet on it being much.


Finally, my furnace uses the basement air for the combustion air. Does
the warmer air help or hinder the combustion process?

I don't think it has any effect at all on the combustion process. But
using air
at say 70F instead of 60F means you do get a wee little bit more heat
out
of the furnace, so yes it helps too.


Still going to cost more. As the heat rises, the thermostat is going to be
satisfied and not call for heat so you continue to use the more expensive
electric heat. *Sure, the basement is more comfortable, but at a cost.

Hot air *going into combustion is slightly more efficient than cold air
going it. * I forget the number, but you can gain a few percent with enough
of a temperature rise of combustion air but all that warmed air you are
burning is being replaced by infiltration of cold air in the house anyway..
To increase the efficiency, duct in fresh air for combustion and do not use
the circulated heated air at all. That is the way all high efficiency
burners work today. *Required by code in some places.

The only way electric heat saves money is to greatly reduce the amount of
heated needed in unused rooms. *If you use the examples I used yesterday,
for every Btu of electric I'd use, I'd have to reduce the oil heat use by
twice that just to break even. *I tried it one month and it was a costly
experiment.

There are things you can do to improve efficiency, but there is no changing
the laws of physics. *You want heat, you pay for it one way or another.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Jan 7, 5:31*pm, ransley wrote:
On Jan 7, 3:45*pm, wrote:





On Jan 7, 4:02*pm, ransley wrote:

On Jan 7, 11:25*am, John wrote:

This is a rather big one, and I'm hoping I'll get a bit of discussion
going on this, as there's lots of angles to this, and I frankly am
curious to know what other people have come up with.

I have several rooms/zones in the house, which can be somewhat
independent from other areas in the house as far as heating goes, and
I'm wondering what my options are. *I was thinking, for example, if I
knew I was going to be in the basement all day, I could turn down the
main furnace to say 68, and then use a supplementary heater to bring
just the basement up to 72.

I should add, that my basement tends to be colder than the rest of the
house, so to get my basement to 72, I would have to crank the regular
thermostat to 75 or so (which I would never do), so I would need a
supplementary heater in the basement one way or another.

What I'm looking for is a comfortable solution, that is somewhat
energy efficient. *I have a high-efficiency gas furnace right now, but
I'm thinking adding electrical space heaters might actually reduce my
heating costs if I used them correctly.

Also, I don't want this to be a pain to manage. *That is, I don't want
to have to walk around the whole house and adjust the vents/
temperature guages each time I switch rooms. *So, what I need for that
would be some integrated smart controllers... *(Am I going to far
here?). *OK, while I'm dreaming, heating/cooling the zones based on
time of day, and days of the week would be nice...

I'm curious to hear what other people think / know about this

John

I have forced air and do similar, so I cut in a 3 big vents on my
600sq ft basement that I open only when i want heat. I also open an
additional return. Its all sealable so it works. Heat rises, , cutting
off the basement only saved me 15% with a R20 basement wall and im
Zone 5, to - 20f. So the comfort lost may not be worth the cost if the
basement is insulated and sealed. Or else use a wood stove or electric
heater in the basement. a wood stove would do it well- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

If you want it automated and have good access to the ducts involved,
you could
consider installing a system with automatic zone dampers. *It won't be
cheap though.
And even with that, unless you go to motion detectors, it isn't going
to follow you
around and automatically adjust.

Other alternative is to use electric heater or heaters in the areas
you will be using.
How much it saves and whether it's worth it, obviously depends on a
host of factors
and is something you need to figure out.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Electric costs me near double per BTU of gas, Zone Dampers for
humidity? you usualy have great ideas, but I have found humidity
migrates very well , dont forget zone dampers will pull electricity
24x7 on the controll unit and at the cost have a long payback.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


I think you misread something along the way. I suggested zone
dampers
to adjust temperatures in various area, not humidity. I agree, that
for
humidity zoning isn't going to work.