I've been redoing my house and I'm thinking this is a good time to
consider some home automation. I notice that there is a slew of options,
upb, Insteon, Z Wave, among others.

The price per switch, from what I can tell, seems high. What is
reasonable and doable? Or is this not quite there yet?

Jeff

Jeff Thies wrote:
I've been redoing my house and I'm thinking this is a good time to
consider some home automation. I notice that there is a slew of
options, upb, Insteon, Z Wave, among others.

The price per switch, from what I can tell, seems high. What is
reasonable and doable? Or is this not quite there yet?

comp.home.automation is an excellent place to consult. This question has been
asked many times there, so searching in google groups should find many answers.

On Oct 25, 10:26*am, "Bob F" wrote:
Jeff Thies wrote:
* * I've been redoing my house and I'm thinking this is a good time to
consider some home automation. I notice that there is a slew of
options, upb, Insteon, Z Wave, among others.

* The price per switch, from what I can tell, seems high. What is
reasonable and doable? Or is this not quite there yet?

comp.home.automation is an excellent place to consult. This question has been
asked many times there, so searching in google groups should find many answers.

I had X10, and moved to Insteon, so I can comment here on those two.
X10 is neat and cheap, and you can get controllers to do almost
anything. Unfortunately, it suffers from reliability issues -- the
more you put in, the less reliable it gets. I've since moved to
Insteon. As far as that goes, it seems to work quite a bit better,
though there's still some glitches in the key-pad-lincs that I wish
they would fix (for example, if I turn on a light downstairs, the
keypadlinc upstairs doesn't detect that I did it. So to turn off the
light from upstairs, I have to press the button once to turn the light
on again, and a second time to turn it off; not a huge deal, but
annoying. Also, certain buttons are always dedicated so you can't set
it up exactly how you'd like).

I will say that my products (bought from Smarthome), while expensive
do have a quality feel to them. With the cheap X10 products, you turn
on a lamp and get this loud clunking sound, and the light turns on
abruptly. Whereas with the smarthome device, I press the button, and
the light gently fades on, and has a very rich appearance. It does
give you some nice features as well, like being able to dim the lights
to any level, so when we're putting the kids to bed for example, we
can keep the light slightly dim, and then turn them off completely
using a remote later. You can also control lamps easily via a light
switch, or turn off all the lights in the house with a push of a
button, so it does have some nice value.

Now, Smarthome/Insteon is VERY expensive, and they nickle and dime you
when they can. You have to pay for all the features you want,
especially the more advanced ones (like control from a computer)

Out of all the products I bought from them, only the keypadlinc's gave
me any trouble (one arrived defective, one died after a year, and one
had a button I couldn't reprogram... and that's out of seven I
bought...). Outside of that they're all still running. Overall, I
like the having the controls in the house, and it definitely has a
value plus for the home, but after considering the amount I've spent,
I'd be on the fence as to whether I would do it again. I would
suggest looking at the other technologies before diving into any of
them, and make sure they have what YOU want (how much money do you
have, how big of a system are you building, what kind of final
appearance/quality are you after?)


John

On 10/25/2010 11:26 AM, John wrote:
On Oct 25, 10:26 am, "Bob wrote:
Jeff Thies wrote:
I've been redoing my house and I'm thinking this is a good time to
consider some home automation. I notice that there is a slew of
options, upb, Insteon, Z Wave, among others.

The price per switch, from what I can tell, seems high. What is
reasonable and doable? Or is this not quite there yet?

comp.home.automation is an excellent place to consult.

I looked at that group and saw 3 threads for October and was thinking it
didn't get much traffic. I'll give it another look.


This question has been
asked many times there, so searching in google groups should find many answers.

I had X10, and moved to Insteon, so I can comment here on those two.
X10 is neat and cheap, and you can get controllers to do almost
anything.

That is a big plus.

Unfortunately, it suffers from reliability issues -- the
more you put in, the less reliable it gets. I've since moved to
Insteon. As far as that goes, it seems to work quite a bit better,
though there's still some glitches in the key-pad-lincs that I wish
they would fix (for example, if I turn on a light downstairs, the
keypadlinc upstairs doesn't detect that I did it. So to turn off the
light from upstairs, I have to press the button once to turn the light
on again, and a second time to turn it off; not a huge deal, but
annoying. Also, certain buttons are always dedicated so you can't set
it up exactly how you'd like).

I will say that my products (bought from Smarthome), while expensive
do have a quality feel to them. With the cheap X10 products, you turn
on a lamp and get this loud clunking sound, and the light turns on
abruptly. Whereas with the smarthome device, I press the button, and
the light gently fades on, and has a very rich appearance. It does
give you some nice features as well, like being able to dim the lights
to any level, so when we're putting the kids to bed for example, we
can keep the light slightly dim, and then turn them off completely
using a remote later. You can also control lamps easily via a light
switch, or turn off all the lights in the house with a push of a
button, so it does have some nice value.

Now, Smarthome/Insteon is VERY expensive, and they nickle and dime you
when they can. You have to pay for all the features you want,
especially the more advanced ones (like control from a computer)

Out of all the products I bought from them, only the keypadlinc's gave
me any trouble (one arrived defective, one died after a year, and one
had a button I couldn't reprogram... and that's out of seven I
bought...). Outside of that they're all still running. Overall, I
like the having the controls in the house, and it definitely has a
value plus for the home, but after considering the amount I've spent,
I'd be on the fence as to whether I would do it again. I would
suggest looking at the other technologies before diving into any of
them, and make sure they have what YOU want (how much money do you
have, how big of a system are you building, what kind of final
appearance/quality are you after?)


I see what you mean. It would seem like this would be the time for
automation and I can find a lot of oddball uses from controlling audio
to monitoring my solar stuff. But, I think I'll do the little bit of
stuff I want (kitchen overhead light controls) and leave the rest for later.

I'm thinking all this could be interfaced with a smart phone or laptop
or iPAD. Apparently not quite yet.


John

Jeff Thies wrote:
On 10/25/2010 11:26 AM, John wrote:
On Oct 25, 10:26 am, "Bob wrote:
Jeff Thies wrote:
I've been redoing my house and I'm thinking this is a good
time to consider some home automation. I notice that there is a
slew of options, upb, Insteon, Z Wave, among others.

The price per switch, from what I can tell, seems high. What is
reasonable and doable? Or is this not quite there yet?

comp.home.automation is an excellent place to consult.

I looked at that group and saw 3 threads for October and was thinking
it didn't get much traffic. I'll give it another look.

Going back into the past, there should be lots more.



This question has been
asked many times there, so searching in google groups should find
many answers.

I had X10, and moved to Insteon, so I can comment here on those two.
X10 is neat and cheap, and you can get controllers to do almost
anything.

That is a big plus.

Unfortunately, it suffers from reliability issues -- the
more you put in, the less reliable it gets. I've since moved to
Insteon. As far as that goes, it seems to work quite a bit better,
though there's still some glitches in the key-pad-lincs that I wish
they would fix (for example, if I turn on a light downstairs, the
keypadlinc upstairs doesn't detect that I did it. So to turn off the
light from upstairs, I have to press the button once to turn the
light on again, and a second time to turn it off; not a huge deal,
but annoying. Also, certain buttons are always dedicated so you
can't set it up exactly how you'd like).

I will say that my products (bought from Smarthome), while expensive
do have a quality feel to them. With the cheap X10 products, you
turn on a lamp and get this loud clunking sound, and the light turns
on abruptly.

X10 Lamp modules don't clunk, and can be dimmed. But they start from max
brightness when turned on.


I see what you mean. It would seem like this would be the time for
automation and I can find a lot of oddball uses from controlling audio
to monitoring my solar stuff. But, I think I'll do the little bit of
stuff I want (kitchen overhead light controls) and leave the rest for
later.
I'm thinking all this could be interfaced with a smart phone or
laptop or iPAD. Apparently not quite yet.

There have been X10 telephone responders in the past at least. They may still be
made.
X10 can certainly be controlled from computers.

Jeff Thies wrote:
I've been redoing my house and I'm thinking this is a good time to
consider some home automation. I notice that there is a slew of options,
upb, Insteon, Z Wave, among others.

The price per switch, from what I can tell, seems high. What is
reasonable and doable? Or is this not quite there yet?

Jeff

That's for gadget freaks. Totally unnecessary and waste of money.

--
LSMFT

Simple job, assist the assistant of the physicist.

"Jeff Thies" wrote in message
...
I've been redoing my house and I'm thinking this is a good time to
consider some home automation. I notice that there is a slew of options,
upb, Insteon, Z Wave, among others.

The price per switch, from what I can tell, seems high. What is
reasonable and doable? Or is this not quite there yet?

Jeff

I and many others use X-10 successfully but with important caveats. Out of
the box, the signals aren't strong enough to cope with today's noisy
environments. But there are fixes that when all is totalled are still less
$ than Insteon. X-10's patent has expired, so many people are making X-10
gear. Who would support the proprietary Insteon line if Smarthome went
bankrupt? I've found that the much cheaper, license free, non-single source
X-10 protocol gear is more than up to the task of automating most homes but
only *with* addition of Jeff Volp's XTB line of X-10 signal boosters.

http://jvde.us/xtb/xtb_reports.htm

After I purchased the XTB-IIR I went from having X-10 issues every day to
maybe one every two months or even longer. I have X-10 gear from 10
different manufacturers and the standard's an open one so there's no
proprietary BS to deal with. With the XTB-IIR, I press the buttons and the
lights do what they should. The only really bothersome problem left is the
CFL issue: lights turning back on by themselves or flashing even when
turned off. Other protocols don't suffer from that problem because they
don't even offer the option to turn equipment on and off via local control,
a feature I find quite useful. That means that you can control a device
remotely, but you don't have to. Anyone who's had a lamp on a 24 hour "peg"
type timer and had to reach behind a table to turn it on manually knows what
a pain a lack of local control can be.

I found it interesting that instead of fixing what was broken with X-10,
vendors all developed new (and mostly proprietary) protocols that cost two
to ten times as much as X-10 without offering anywhere near the flexibility
or functionality of the X-10/XTB combo. Even better still, as more and more
people encounter X-10 issues related to power switching supplies, they
simply give up. That means I can find great deals on Ebay for X-10 gear,
new and in the box, for pennies on the dollar. Recently I bought a bunch of
switches and modules that would have cost $200 retail for $30. No one else
even bid. My kinda auction. (-:

It took me nearly ten years and near total breakdown of my X-10 setup to
build the courage (and learn the basics) of installing a 220VAC single
handle breaker to connect it to the XTB-IIR. Phase coupling is definitely
required with X-10. The XTB-IIR takes a signal from one phase, amplifies it
to 25V (X-10's repeater/coupler devices only amp the signal to 5V) and
passes it to all the outlets on the other phase.

The upside to getting into the breaker box had much higher SAF than I
thought. I thought my box had no more space for new breakers until Jeff
clued me into the existence of tandem breakers. I was able to add the XTB's
220VAC breaker and a new circuit to the kitchen (after my wife got over the
fear of my getting killed). Now we can use all the major kitchen appliances
at once and the X-10 signals punch through most interference. When they
don't, a $5 filter will usually solve the problem. Plus, X-10 has at least
5 different types of troubleshooting tools, from the cheap to the highly
expensive pro gear.

This is a 1940 house, designed with what I am sure people thought was an
absolute excess of outlets at the time. Taking into account all the power
strips I have, a modern home needs about 25 outlets per room! If you are
going to do the whole house, and want to do it for half to one third the
price of any other protocol with 10 times the amount of equipment to choose
from, X-10 is still a very good choice. If you're going to use the RF part
of the X-10 protocol, you'll need a "souped up" transceiver from WGL. It's
under 100 bucks and it puts the X-10 offerings to shame. I can turn on my
porch light from 300' away using it. Without it, I can't get more than 25'
in the open air. Quite a difference.

If you're going to do it big time, X-10 makes sense and costs less.
Automating a single porch light is something I wouldn't recommend X-10 for
because without the XTB the signal can get stepped on by UPS's, CFL's and
any number of line noise generators. Plus, Jeff's technical support is
"Best in class"

--
Bobby G.

On 10/25/2010 2:31 PM, Robert Green wrote:
"Jeff wrote in message
...
I've been redoing my house and I'm thinking this is a good time to
consider some home automation. I notice that there is a slew of options,
upb, Insteon, Z Wave, among others.

The price per switch, from what I can tell, seems high. What is
reasonable and doable? Or is this not quite there yet?

Jeff

I and many others use X-10 successfully but with important caveats. Out of
the box, the signals aren't strong enough to cope with today's noisy
environments. But there are fixes that when all is totalled are still less
$ than Insteon. X-10's patent has expired, so many people are making X-10
gear.

I like that.

Who would support the proprietary Insteon line if Smarthome went
bankrupt? I've found that the much cheaper, license free, non-single source
X-10 protocol gear is more than up to the task of automating most homes but
only *with* addition of Jeff Volp's XTB line of X-10 signal boosters.

http://jvde.us/xtb/xtb_reports.htm

I'll look into that.


After I purchased the XTB-IIR I went from having X-10 issues every day to
maybe one every two months or even longer. I have X-10 gear from 10
different manufacturers and the standard's an open one so there's no
proprietary BS to deal with. With the XTB-IIR, I press the buttons and the
lights do what they should. The only really bothersome problem left is the
CFL issue: lights turning back on by themselves or flashing even when
turned off. Other protocols don't suffer from that problem because they
don't even offer the option to turn equipment on and off via local control,
a feature I find quite useful. That means that you can control a device
remotely, but you don't have to. Anyone who's had a lamp on a 24 hour "peg"
type timer and had to reach behind a table to turn it on manually knows what
a pain a lack of local control can be.

snip

If you're going to do it big time, X-10 makes sense and costs less.


I had written off X10 but I think it is worth another look, if for no
other reason that I can't afford the other gear!

I'm putting in some overhead lights in the kitchen and wanted to
control some of them individually. The option being running multiple
power down to a bank of switches, which didn't make sense. At
$50+/switch for the others, that didn't make sense either.

Do you know where I can find just the module without the plug and
outlet? I haven't seen it yet, but it would seem like it has to exist. I
can think of more uses...

Jeff

Automating a single porch light is something I wouldn't recommend X-10 for
because without the XTB the signal can get stepped on by UPS's, CFL's and
any number of line noise generators. Plus, Jeff's technical support is
"Best in class"

--
Bobby G.

"Jeff Thies" wrote in message
...
On 10/25/2010 2:31 PM, Robert Green wrote:
"Jeff wrote in message
...
I've been redoing my house and I'm thinking this is a good time
to
consider some home automation. I notice that there is a slew of
options,
upb, Insteon, Z Wave, among others.

The price per switch, from what I can tell, seems high. What is
reasonable and doable? Or is this not quite there yet?

Jeff

I and many others use X-10 successfully but with important caveats. Out
of
the box, the signals aren't strong enough to cope with today's noisy
environments. But there are fixes that when all is totalled are still
less
$ than Insteon. X-10's patent has expired, so many people are making
X-10
gear.

I like that.

Me too. I've been screwed a number of times by companies going south and
taking their patents with them.

Who would support the proprietary Insteon line if Smarthome went
bankrupt? I've found that the much cheaper, license free, non-single
source
X-10 protocol gear is more than up to the task of automating most homes
but
only *with* addition of Jeff Volp's XTB line of X-10 signal boosters.

http://jvde.us/xtb/xtb_reports.htm

I'll look into that.

I firmly believe that X-10 is not "doable" without it, although some lucky
folks seem to be able to make it work with stock equipment. The XTB is the
nitromethane fuel of the X-10 world.


After I purchased the XTB-IIR I went from having X-10 issues every day
to
maybe one every two months or even longer. I have X-10 gear from 10
different manufacturers and the standard's an open one so there's no
proprietary BS to deal with. With the XTB-IIR, I press the buttons and
the
lights do what they should. The only really bothersome problem left is
the
CFL issue: lights turning back on by themselves or flashing even when
turned off. Other protocols don't suffer from that problem because they
don't even offer the option to turn equipment on and off via local
control,
a feature I find quite useful. That means that you can control a device
remotely, but you don't have to. Anyone who's had a lamp on a 24 hour
"peg"
type timer and had to reach behind a table to turn it on manually knows
what
a pain a lack of local control can be.

snip

If you're going to do it big time, X-10 makes sense and costs less.


I had written off X10 but I think it is worth another look, if for no
other reason that I can't afford the other gear!

It's almost sinful how much you can buy from Ebay for pennies on the dollar.
There isn't an HA protocol that has anywhere near the choice of gear and
manufacturers that X-10 has. And now it's off patent so anyone can dive in
and make compatible equipment.

I'm putting in some overhead lights in the kitchen and wanted to
control some of them individually. The option being running multiple
power down to a bank of switches, which didn't make sense. At
$50+/switch for the others, that didn't make sense either.

Do you know where I can find just the module without the plug and
outlet? I haven't seen it yet, but it would seem like it has to exist. I
can think of more uses...

Search for X-10 in-line modules - they come in lamp and appliance mode
(dimmable thyristor control and relay only). If you're not a stickler for
NEC rules, you can always make an inline module by cutting an extension cord
in half and attaching the ends to the plug and outlet of the module you're
converting.

--
Bobby G.

On 10/26/2010 3:35 AM, Robert Green wrote:
"Jeff wrote in message
...
On 10/25/2010 2:31 PM, Robert Green wrote:
"Jeff wrote in message
...
I've been redoing my house and I'm thinking this is a good time
to
consider some home automation. I notice that there is a slew of
options,
upb, Insteon, Z Wave, among others.

The price per switch, from what I can tell, seems high. What is
reasonable and doable? Or is this not quite there yet?

Jeff

I and many others use X-10 successfully but with important caveats. Out
of
the box, the signals aren't strong enough to cope with today's noisy
environments. But there are fixes that when all is totalled are still
less
$ than Insteon. X-10's patent has expired, so many people are making
X-10
gear.

I like that.

Me too. I've been screwed a number of times by companies going south and
taking their patents with them.

Who would support the proprietary Insteon line if Smarthome went
bankrupt? I've found that the much cheaper, license free, non-single
source
X-10 protocol gear is more than up to the task of automating most homes
but
only *with* addition of Jeff Volp's XTB line of X-10 signal boosters.

http://jvde.us/xtb/xtb_reports.htm

I'll look into that.

I firmly believe that X-10 is not "doable" without it, although some lucky
folks seem to be able to make it work with stock equipment. The XTB is the
nitromethane fuel of the X-10 world.


After I purchased the XTB-IIR I went from having X-10 issues every day
to
maybe one every two months or even longer.


OK, this sounds like the trick. I take it this hooks up to the breaker
box and feeds both phases.

The kit is cool...

snip

I had written off X10 but I think it is worth another look, if for no
other reason that I can't afford the other gear!

It's almost sinful how much you can buy from Ebay for pennies on the dollar.
There isn't an HA protocol that has anywhere near the choice of gear and
manufacturers that X-10 has. And now it's off patent so anyone can dive in
and make compatible equipment.

I've been looking and it is all cheap. I found the RF remotes that
handle 12 devices for $7, at that price I can afford to lose them!


I'm putting in some overhead lights in the kitchen and wanted to
control some of them individually. The option being running multiple
power down to a bank of switches, which didn't make sense. At
$50+/switch for the others, that didn't make sense either.

Do you know where I can find just the module without the plug and
outlet? I haven't seen it yet, but it would seem like it has to exist. I
can think of more uses...

Search for X-10 in-line modules - they come in lamp and appliance mode
(dimmable thyristor control and relay only). If you're not a stickler for
NEC rules, you can always make an inline module by cutting an extension cord
in half and attaching the ends to the plug and outlet of the module you're
converting.

Got it. $11 looks like the magic price for almost anything x10. Now
if I can just find an x10 volume control I can get my multizone home
audio going.

Jeff

--
Bobby G.

Jeff Thies wrote:
Search for X-10 in-line modules - they come in lamp and appliance
mode (dimmable thyristor control and relay only). If you're not a
stickler for NEC rules, you can always make an inline module by
cutting an extension cord in half and attaching the ends to the plug
and outlet of the module you're converting.

Got it. $11 looks like the magic price for almost anything x10. Now
if I can just find an x10 volume control I can get my multizone home
audio going.

IR extenders for normal remotes handle that job just fine.

"Jeff Thies" wrote in message
...

stuff snipped

X-10 protocol gear is more than up to the task of automating most homes
but only *with* addition of Jeff Volp's XTB line of X-10 signal
boosters.

http://jvde.us/xtb/xtb_reports.htm

I'll look into that.

I firmly believe that X-10 is not "doable" without it, although some
lucky
folks seem to be able to make it work with stock equipment. The XTB is
the
nitromethane fuel of the X-10 world.


After I purchased the XTB-IIR I went from having X-10 issues every day
to maybe one every two months or even longer.


OK, this sounds like the trick. I take it this hooks up to the breaker
box and feeds both phases.

The kit is cool...

Yes, you can either buy it fully assembled or in kit form. It sits next to
the circuit panel and both amplifies the original signal and "copies" it to
the other phase. The technical terms are "repeated" and "coupled" but
"amplifies" and "copies" are somewhat more descriptive for the average Joe.
stuff snipped

It's almost sinful how much you can buy from Ebay for pennies on the
dollar.
There isn't an HA protocol that has anywhere near the choice of gear and
manufacturers that X-10 has. And now it's off patent so anyone can dive
in
and make compatible equipment.

I've been looking and it is all cheap. I found the RF remotes that
handle 12 devices for $7, at that price I can afford to lose them!

The low prices are sometimes a mixed blessing (some of the gear is less
well-made than others) but all things considered, I'm happy with the low
cost of items like remotes because of the occasional mishap like the dog
deciding it's a new chew toy of some kind. I also can't see paying $50 just
to switch a device on and off, and some of the newer protocols charge that
(and more) per controlled load. I'm happy with X-10 and the fact that there
are many sources of X-10 gear, not just one vendor that may or may not
survive the Great Recession that we are allegedly now out of. Uh huh.

stuff snipped

Do you know where I can find just the module without the plug and
outlet? I haven't seen it yet, but it would seem like it has to exist.
I
can think of more uses...

Search for X-10 in-line modules - they come in lamp and appliance mode
(dimmable thyristor control and relay only). If you're not a stickler
for
NEC rules, you can always make an inline module by cutting an extension
cord
in half and attaching the ends to the plug and outlet of the module
you're
converting.

Got it. $11 looks like the magic price for almost anything x10. Now
if I can just find an x10 volume control I can get my multizone home
audio going.

That's handled with a device called a Powermid - it's an IR extender that
allows you to control devices that use IR remotes from any room in the
house. I recall someone using the DIM/BRIGHT controls for such an
application, but the best way to accomplish AV control is with the Powermids
(which change IR to RF so that the signal can pass through walls).

Good luck!

--
Bobby G.