In article ,
"Ed Pawlowski" wrote:

For the three times a year in needs
changing, I'm willing to pay these days.

I'm willing to pay. What I'm not willing to do is take it to one of
those thieving quick change places (I'm sure you've seen the Jiffy Lube
expose.) And I'm not willing to make a damn appt. at a real mechanic,
(most of whom are either incompetent or dishonest or both anyway) and
then either get a ride to and fro or wait around for an hour or more.
There's only one mechanic that I trust in this town, and he's a damn
flake. Nice guy, and a great mechanic. But a flake.

On 10/14/2010 8:37 AM, Steve Barker wrote:
On 10/13/2010 11:43 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 10/13/2010 1:04 PM, harry wrote:
On Oct 13, 5:08 pm, Steve wrote:
On 10/13/2010 10:24 AM, Higgs Boson wrote:





On Oct 13, 7:51 am, wrote:
On Oct 13, 7:49 am, Smitty wrote:

I know there are auto groups, but I don't hang out in any of them.
It's
time to change the oil in the car again. I've always run the engine
until it's hot before I do it, and then I burn the **** out of my
hands
trying to get the damn filter out of its nest in the exhaust header.
(thanks, toyota, for that engineering stroke of genius)

I'm thinking of saying to hell with it, and changing it cold
(It's 64
outside now.) How sacrilegious would that be, do you guys think?

Just run it a few minutes , or let it cool so its not so hot. I think
it will all drain unless its sludge and the oil has been run for
15000.

Fascinated by this thread! I don't change oil any more either.
Partly because the current thinking seems to be that newer cars really
don't need the orthodox 3000-mile change. I am driving a '99 Nissan
Maxima GLE.

I never heard of the "change while hot" idea! What is the "physics"
behind that?

Also: Do the commercial "jiffy-lube" (avoid them!!!) type places
change hot or cold?

TIA

Well if you drive your car into a "jiffy lube" JOINT I'd suspect the
engine to be hot.

Oil should always be drained hot. AND it should be changed every 3000
miles. Regardless of technology and quailty of oil, engines are still
made of cast iron and aluminum, and oil STILL gets dirty in 3000 miles.
Period.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

It's nothing to do with "dirty". The dirt is carbon particles which
is a lubricator and harmless.
Oil deteriorates as the long molecules are chopped up and it looses
it's lubricating properties.
If you have a new car, there will be metal particles initially until
it runs in. I have never owned a new car so I don't let that aspect
worry me.
In days of yore, when a car was standing all the oil drained down to
the sump. Wear took place in the first few hundred revolutions until
the oil was circulated round. Modern oils leave a film of oil round
the engine when it stops which reduces this effect enormously. This
effect reduces as the oil gets old and is one reason for changing it.

As American I don't suppose you run gas powered cars. (I mean
propane).
The oil in these cars retains and almost new appearance but still has
to be changed. (Much to the chagrin of the ignorant who can't see
what's wrong with it)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3,000_mile_myth

Fleet operators take oil samples and send the samples to a lab for
analysis of the oil condition. Not only does it prevent waste of
perfectly good oil but can also be a good indicator of engine
condition. Here's a link to one lab in the U.S. that tests oil for
businesses, industries and consumers:

http://www.blackstone-labs.com/

The company provides a free sample kit and charges $25 for a regular
analysis. The company also tests transmission fluid, gear oil and
other lubricants.

TDD


OK, lets see...... $25 for analysis, or $25 for a Lube oil and filter
job... I guess i'll just keep doing it every 3000 miles and know it
needed it anyway. Oil analysis is a good practice DURING oil changes for
fleets with trucks that hold TEN GALLONS of oil, but not as a way to
determine if it needs it in a 5quart car.


You don't necessarily need it every oil change for a noncommercial
vehicle. How about once a year? It could be a good thing to do if
you plan to keep your vehicle for a long time, be sensible.

TDD

On Oct 13, 11:14*pm, "Ed Pawlowski" wrote:
"Steve Barker" wrote



Oil should always be drained hot. *AND it should be changed every 3000
miles. *Regardless of technology and quailty of oil, *engines are still
made of cast iron and aluminum, and oil STILL gets dirty in 3000 miles.
Period.

Your opinion. *I change at 7500 miles (factory recommendation) and get
200,000 miles from engines and never an oil problem. *Nothing anyone says
can convince me to spend twice as much money to care for a car that does not
break down under present circumstances. *Severe driving conditions may
modify that interval for some people

The dealer says I should get fuel injector service ($129.00) once a year
also. *I'd have spent thousands of dollars over the years and again, never
had a fuel injector related problem either.

In general, I'm with you Ed. It also makes a big difference if
you're using conventional oil or synthetic. Porsche, for example,
which specs synthetic only, recommends 15,000 mile using Mobil 1.
IMO, you'd just be wasting oil and money to change it at 3,000. And I
kind of doubt Porsche wants to **** off customers by having their cars
fail early due to the cost of a mere oil change. Most of those oil
changes are probably at the dealer anyway, so they even have an
incentive to keep their dealers happy by telling people to change the
oil more frequently.

It also has some relation to how long you intend to keep a car and
what the usual failures are that finally send it to the scrap heap.
In my personal cars and those of friends I'm familiar with, etc, I've
never seen an engine failure attributable to lubrication being the
final straw. A recent example, a friend just gave away his Honda CRV
SUV. It had 200K+ miles on it and still ran fine. But it had a shot
AC compressor and a check engine light indicating a problem with the
fuel evaporation system. He decided it wasn't worth fixing and
bought a new one. He just followed the normal oil change interval.

That is more the typical scenario that I see. Several things that add
up to send it to the scrapper. Or maybe a transmission failure, but
in my experience, it's never been a failure in the lubricated parts of
the engine.

So, tell us. And there will be that many fewer people who are
mistaken.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Steve Barker" wrote in message
...

Basically, what
"15W40" is saying is that the oil has the viscosity of a straight 15
weight oil at low temp and that of a 40 weight at high temp. but a
"straight weight" oil thins noticeably at high temp, as if anyone's
still using them.

nate


that's NOT what it means at all.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

But, are you sure you're doing it right? Be a shame to waste all these
years.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"hr(bob) "
wrote in message
...

My problem is that I don't trust any of the oil change places to do a
correct job. I have found several times when they did something
wrong, either underfilling, overfilling, not tightening the filter or
drain plug, etc. Now I do both our Mazda Protoge' and Nissan
Pathfinder and know it is being done correctly. When I get somewhat
older, currently 74, I'll pay my son to do the job for me. But as
long as I can crawl under the jacked-up vehicles, with jackstands, and
then get back out and stand up again, I will do it myself.

The Daring Dufas wrote:
Fleet operators take oil samples and send the samples to a lab for
analysis of the oil condition. Not only does it prevent waste of
perfectly good oil but can also be a good indicator of engine
condition. Here's a link to one lab in the U.S. that tests oil for
businesses, industries and consumers:

http://www.blackstone-labs.com/

The company provides a free sample kit and charges $25 for a regular
analysis. The company also tests transmission fluid, gear oil and
other lubricants.

TDD


OK, lets see...... $25 for analysis, or $25 for a Lube oil and filter
job... I guess i'll just keep doing it every 3000 miles and know it
needed it anyway. Oil analysis is a good practice DURING oil changes
for fleets with trucks that hold TEN GALLONS of oil, but not as a
way to determine if it needs it in a 5quart car.


You don't necessarily need it every oil change for a noncommercial
vehicle. How about once a year? It could be a good thing to do if
you plan to keep your vehicle for a long time, be sensible.

Testing a few times, until you get a "Bad" result could be a way to determine
how long you should let it go. OR, perhaps, go the recommended miles, then test
before you decide to change.

On Thu, 14 Oct 2010 12:34:37 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Oct 13, 11:14Â*pm, "Ed Pawlowski" wrote:
"Steve Barker" wrote



Oil should always be drained hot. Â*AND it should be changed every 3000
miles. Â*Regardless of technology and quailty of oil, Â*engines are still
made of cast iron and aluminum, and oil STILL gets dirty in 3000 miles.
Period.

Your opinion. Â*I change at 7500 miles (factory recommendation) and get
200,000 miles from engines and never an oil problem. Â*Nothing anyone says
can convince me to spend twice as much money to care for a car that does not
break down under present circumstances. Â*Severe driving conditions may
modify that interval for some people

The dealer says I should get fuel injector service ($129.00) once a year
also. Â*I'd have spent thousands of dollars over the years and again, never
had a fuel injector related problem either.

In general, I'm with you Ed. It also makes a big difference if
you're using conventional oil or synthetic. Porsche, for example,
which specs synthetic only, recommends 15,000 mile using Mobil 1.
IMO, you'd just be wasting oil and money to change it at 3,000. And I
kind of doubt Porsche wants to **** off customers by having their cars
fail early due to the cost of a mere oil change. Most of those oil
changes are probably at the dealer anyway, so they even have an
incentive to keep their dealers happy by telling people to change the
oil more frequently.

It also has some relation to how long you intend to keep a car and
what the usual failures are that finally send it to the scrap heap.
In my personal cars and those of friends I'm familiar with, etc, I've
never seen an engine failure attributable to lubrication being the
final straw. A recent example, a friend just gave away his Honda CRV
SUV. It had 200K+ miles on it and still ran fine. But it had a shot
AC compressor and a check engine light indicating a problem with the
fuel evaporation system. He decided it wasn't worth fixing and
bought a new one. He just followed the normal oil change interval.

That is more the typical scenario that I see. Several things that add
up to send it to the scrapper. Or maybe a transmission failure, but
in my experience, it's never been a failure in the lubricated parts of
the engine.
I've seen my share of them since becoming a mechanic back in 1971.

Not as many these last 10 years or so - the oil quality as well as the
engine design have both improved significantly. I have seen many
camshaft problems that were definitely lubrication related, as well as
timing chain problems and balance shaft problems (think
Chrysler/Mitsbishi 2600) that were DEFINITELY lubrication related -
agravated by a dicey design. Same with hundreds and hundreds of 2700cc
Chrysler V6 engines. The "coking" problem with them is lubrication
related, and NONE have failed with 3000 mile oil change intervals. (or
synthetic oil with less than 6000 mile change intervals)
The only slant six Mopar bottom end failures I've ever seen have been
on engines that didn't get adequate oil changes - and they were tough
to kill even then.
3.0 Mitsu/Chrysler V6 engines, with the exception of early valve guide
dropping, were bulletproof if the oil was changed often enough.
400,000km and more bulletproof. I've seen them totally trashed at
under 200,000 km with 10,000 mile(15,000km) oil change intervals.
Toyota M engines (supra/cressida etc) only failed timing chains and
camshafts on engines that ran extended oil changes or too light an oil
(5W20 or 5W30 didn't quite do it at 6000km change intervals - 10W40
was.t much better.

On 10/13/2010 10:38 PM, Steve Barker wrote:
On 10/13/2010 5:40 PM, Nate Nagel wrote:
On 10/13/2010 05:59 PM, dpb wrote:
dpb wrote:
Actually, old habits die hard, don't they? From purely viscosity
standpoint, it would be lower at colder w/ the multi-grade oils.

I still like the idea of having run the vehicle to get whatever in
suspension before changing, though...

--

nope. 15W cold is still thicker than regular 40 weight hot. Makes no
damned sense, but that's the system we're stuck with. Basically, what
"15W40" is saying is that the oil has the viscosity of a straight 15
weight oil at low temp and that of a 40 weight at high temp. but a
"straight weight" oil thins noticeably at high temp, as if anyone's
still using them.

nate


that's NOT what it means at all.


http://www.zddplus.com/TechBrief13%2...0Viscosity.pdf

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

wrote
That is more the typical scenario that I see. Several things that add
up to send it to the scrapper. Or maybe a transmission failure, but
in my experience, it's never been a failure in the lubricated parts of
the engine.

That's the way my 2001 LeSabre is headed. Engine is great. Everything else
is going to crap though. Ac no longer works, Climate control is hot on one
side, cold on the other, heated seat died at 39,000 miles (out of warranty
in miles, but only 2 years) Transmission at 100,000 miles, brakes lines,
both rear windows are held up with wood sticks in the door, and a few more
things I don't recall at the moment. I keep it as a spare now, but I've not
driven it myself in over 3 years. I'm contemplating giving it away.

On Oct 14, 3:37*pm, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
But, are you sure you're doing it right? Be a shame to waste all these
years.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
*www.lds.org
.

"hr(bob) "
wrote in ...

My problem is that I don't trust any of the oil change places to do a
correct job. *I have found several times when they did something
wrong, either underfilling, overfilling, not tightening the filter or
drain plug, etc. *Now I do both our Mazda Protoge' and Nissan
Pathfinder and know it is being done correctly. *When I get somewhat
older, currently 74, I'll pay my son to do the job for me. *But as
long as I can crawl under the jacked-up vehicles, with jackstands, and
then get back out and stand up again, I will do it myself.

I know enough to change the oil after the vehicle has been running a
while, so that the heated oil is thinner and drains more completely, I
know enough to tilt the car to one side so that the crankcase drains
more completely, I use a quality oil filter and know the brand of oil
I am putting in, and our local recycle center will take the old oil.
Also, it is just as fast as driving to the nearest oil change place.
What am I missing???

?

"Steve B" wrote in message
...

It's
time to change the oil in the car again. I've always run the engine
until it's hot before I do it, and then I burn the **** out of my hands
trying to get the damn filter out of its nest in the exhaust header.
(thanks, toyota, for that engineering stroke of genius)

Dodge Cummins diesel engines have one that you have to have a filter
wrench that's on the end of a long rod, and then you have to put it in
there just right, going around major steering components.

Why is it that the engineering and design people cannot put these things
where they would be simple to reach? Like the old Chevies? I really
think Anton Duntov actually thought ahead when he designed the '55 Chevy
motor thinking of the guys who would work on them.

Engineers and designers should have to do a scheduled maintenance on EVERY
car they design before it is released for production. Hell, you have to
go buy special wrenches in some cases.

Steve

Heart surgery pending?
Read up and prepare.
Learn how to care for a friend.
http://cabgbypasssurgery.com

Except for the drivers-side-rear spark plug if the car had power brakes!




__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5535 (20101015) __________

The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.

http://www.eset.com

"John Simpson" wrote in message

Why is it that the engineering and design people cannot put these things
where they would be simple to reach? Like the old Chevies? I really
think Anton Duntov actually thought ahead when he designed the '55 Chevy
motor thinking of the guys who would work on them.

Engineers and designers should have to do a scheduled maintenance on
EVERY car they design before it is released for production. Hell, you
have to go buy special wrenches in some cases.

Steve


Except for the drivers-side-rear spark plug if the car had power brakes!

The best thing that happened to cars is unleaded gas and good long lasting
plugs. Used to be we cleaned them at 5000 miles and replaced them at
10,000. That is a nearly impossible task on so many engines today,
especially the rear plugs. Instead of four times a year, it is four years
between changes.

Years ago, I looked under the hood of a friend's Toyota. The spark
plugs were exactly at the top of the motor. Amazingly easy to change.
Now, that is good design.

I got a five spark plug change on my last truck. One time I took it to
the dealership. They told me the plug was "in there kind of tight and
they didn't want to break it". The next tune up, I did myself. Jack up
the front, take the drivers front wheel off. Reach in with two long
extension sticks. Sure enough, the spark plug was loose, and also
badly worn.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
...

The best thing that happened to cars is unleaded gas and good long
lasting
plugs. Used to be we cleaned them at 5000 miles and replaced them at
10,000. That is a nearly impossible task on so many engines today,
especially the rear plugs. Instead of four times a year, it is four
years
between changes.

In article ,
"badgolferman" wrote:

Another good idea is to get the type of oil wrench that is a cap that
fits over the top of the oil filter and you can then use a socket
extension to undo the filter. Your hands needn't ever get near the
headers. If you want to change your oil hot or cold it won't matter
anymore, you have plenty of access.

As I mentioned, I ended up ordering one of these from Amazon, a good,
solid, made in the U.S. model. It's a terrific concept and well
executed. It doesn't do the entire job, it just loosens the filter. IOW,
I still had to reach into the fire to spin it off and spin the new one
on, because it doesn't grab and hold the filter, it just cams against it
as you turn. So I was still bumping the hot stuff a bit with my hands,
but that initial loosening was taken care of, and that's really 99% of
the scorched flesh issue. A great tool.

Smitty Two wrote:

In article ,
"badgolferman" wrote:

Another good idea is to get the type of oil wrench that is a cap
that fits over the top of the oil filter and you can then use a
socket extension to undo the filter. Your hands needn't ever get
near the headers. If you want to change your oil hot or cold it
won't matter anymore, you have plenty of access.

As I mentioned, I ended up ordering one of these from Amazon, a good,
solid, made in the U.S. model. It's a terrific concept and well
executed. It doesn't do the entire job, it just loosens the filter.
IOW, I still had to reach into the fire to spin it off and spin the
new one on, because it doesn't grab and hold the filter, it just cams
against it as you turn. So I was still bumping the hot stuff a bit
with my hands, but that initial loosening was taken care of, and
that's really 99% of the scorched flesh issue. A great tool.


This is what I have. First one on page.
https://www.matcotools.com/Catalog/t...&page=4&#30291

I have never needed another oil filter wrench despite how many cars
I've owned.