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#1
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San Bruno go boom!
Been watching the teevee nooz coverage of the San Bruno [San Francisco
peninsula] gas main explosion and conflagration. Wow. I used to live about a mile away from that spot, across Skyline Blvd.; used to shop at the Lunardi's just across the road. The news reported lots of people saying they'd been smelling gas in the neighborhood for the last week or so. One can only hope that PG&E (Pure Greed & Extortion) gets raked over the coals, literally, for this one. -- The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring, with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags. - Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com) |
#2
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San Bruno go boom!
On 2010-09-10, David Nebenzahl wrote:
Been watching the teevee nooz coverage of the San Bruno [San Francisco peninsula] gas main explosion and conflagration. Wow. Only one dead. That's fortunate, considering the locale. These incidents are not rare in SFBA. Lotta gas, lotta poeple. There was another one a few years back, just off hwy 680 North near San Ramon/Danville area. Only took out the backhoe operator who ruptured the gas line. I moved from SFBA 3 yrs ago. Don't miss it one bit. nb |
#3
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San Bruno go boom!
David Nebenzahl wrote: Been watching the teevee nooz coverage of the San Bruno [San Francisco peninsula] gas main explosion and conflagration. Wow. I used to live about a mile away from that spot, across Skyline Blvd.; used to shop at the Lunardi's just across the road. The news reported lots of people saying they'd been smelling gas in the neighborhood for the last week or so. One can only hope that PG&E (Pure Greed & Extortion) gets raked over the coals, literally, for this one. A few comments on this: - People said they had smelled gas for a week, did any of those people bother to report it? - People laugh at me when I say Nat. Gas is *not* safe and should not be allowed in residential areas, yet nearly every day there is a house explosion due to a nat. gas leak, and every year or two a big incident like this one. I recall an apartment building in the northeast (NJ?) being leveled by one of these nat. gas transmission lines exploding under it. - Gas detectors are pretty inexpensive, they're included in every RV. Various technologies exist to allow the gas monopolies to install gas monitors in the areas where they pipe their dangerous product. It would not be especially expensive to install remote gas detectors in the area that would not rely on some person actually calling the monopoly to report a possible gas leak. The gas detectors also are more sensitive than human noses so they could detect a small leak blowing past. |
#4
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San Bruno go boom!
On Sep 10, 6:58*am, "Pete C." wrote:
David Nebenzahl wrote: Been watching the teevee nooz coverage of the San Bruno [San Francisco peninsula] gas main explosion and conflagration. Wow. I used to live about a mile away from that spot, across Skyline Blvd.; used to shop at the Lunardi's just across the road. The news reported lots of people saying they'd been smelling gas in the neighborhood for the last week or so. One can only hope that PG&E (Pure Greed & Extortion) gets raked over the coals, literally, for this one. A few comments on this: - People said they had smelled gas for a week, did any of those people bother to report it? - People laugh at me when I say Nat. Gas is *not* safe and should not be allowed in residential areas, yet nearly every day there is a house explosion due to a nat. gas leak, and every year or two a big incident like this one. I recall an apartment building in the northeast (NJ?) being leveled by one of these nat. gas transmission lines exploding under it. - Gas detectors are pretty inexpensive, they're included in every RV. Various technologies exist to allow the gas monopolies to install gas monitors in the areas where they pipe their dangerous product. It would not be especially expensive to install remote gas detectors in the area that would not rely on some person actually calling the monopoly to report a possible gas leak. The gas detectors also are more sensitive than human noses so they could detect a small leak blowing past. yet nearly every day there is a house explosion due to a nat. gas leak, and every year or two a big incident like this one. I recall an apartment building in the northeast (NJ?) being leveled by one of these nat. gas transmission lines exploding under it. Natural gas safety came up another time in AHR. Per some of our knowledgeable contributors, Nat Gas doesn't cause a huge number of injuries or property damage. I googled Nat Gas explosions and fires then and again today. Natural gas has a pretty decent safety record. A fair number of the large explosion / fires are caused human error (damaging pipeline with backhoe). The NJ incident happened in 1994, one fatality (heart attack) The was another deadly explosion in NM in 2000, 6 killed instantly, 6 died of burns & smoke check this out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pipeline_accidents Yes, of course, these are pipeline accidents but most large scale explosions appear to correlate with pipeline problems rather than mere low pressure leaks. I did a quick scan....... looks like LPG (propane) causes a lot more problems than Nat Gas and confirms my gut feeling, propane is way more dangerous than Nat Gas High pressure nat gas pipelines are the only affordable way to transport large amounts. cheers Bob |
#5
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San Bruno go boom!
On 9/10/2010 6:58 AM Pete C. spake thus:
David Nebenzahl wrote: Been watching the teevee nooz coverage of the San Bruno [San Francisco peninsula] gas main explosion and conflagration. Wow. I used to live about a mile away from that spot, across Skyline Blvd.; used to shop at the Lunardi's just across the road. The news reported lots of people saying they'd been smelling gas in the neighborhood for the last week or so. One can only hope that PG&E (Pure Greed & Extortion) gets raked over the coals, literally, for this one. A few comments on this: - People said they had smelled gas for a week, did any of those people bother to report it? Yes. They also reported that PG&E trucks had been seen in the area, some that very day. So apparently the company took the reports seriously; how seriously remains to be seen. (I'm just now hearing reports that the gas smell was reported WEEKS before, not just one week.) - People laugh at me when I say Nat. Gas is *not* safe and should not be allowed in residential areas, yet nearly every day there is a house explosion due to a nat. gas leak, and every year or two a big incident like this one. I recall an apartment building in the northeast (NJ?) being leveled by one of these nat. gas transmission lines exploding under it. It should be allowed, but only if much more stringent safety measure are put in place. And the really infuriating aspect of this incident was just how long it took the utility company to shut off the gas pipeline after the explosion. I was watching the live coverage, on four local TV news channels, with spectacular views of this gigantic fireball spouting out of the ground in this neighborhood. That fireball burned for about TWO ****ING HOURS. How the hell could it have taken them that long to locate the nearest accessible valve and close it? (I understand that it's more than just a matter of shutting a valve; it has to be done carefully, so that the fireball doesn't extinguish itself with gas still coming out, which could lead to another catastrophic explosion.) Even last night, before camera crews could get in for good shots of the area, they showed this incredible scene that looked like something out of Dante or Hieronymous Bosch; what used to be a residential street was a huge hole in the ground, now filled with water from firehoses, surrounded by rubble and debris. The street itself had, in some places, completely burned--BURNED!--down to dirt. ****ing incredible. - Gas detectors are pretty inexpensive, they're included in every RV. Various technologies exist to allow the gas monopolies to install gas monitors in the areas where they pipe their dangerous product. It would not be especially expensive to install remote gas detectors in the area that would not rely on some person actually calling the monopoly to report a possible gas leak. The gas detectors also are more sensitive than human noses so they could detect a small leak blowing past. Tell that to PG&E, who never fail to cut a corner if they can get away with it. -- The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring, with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags. - Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com) |
#6
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San Bruno go boom!
"Pete C." wrote in message
ster.com... - People laugh at me when I say Nat. Gas is *not* safe and should not be allowed in residential areas, With good reason. I've lived in areas with natural gas heat for over half a century and seen damn few accidents, and many of those were caused by morons who didn't heed the Call Before You Dig warnings or who couldn't be trusted to light a water heater according to the simple instructions stuck to the side. yet nearly every day there is a house explosion due to a nat. gas leak, Documentation please. |
#7
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San Bruno go boom!
DGDevin wrote: "Pete C." wrote in message ster.com... - People laugh at me when I say Nat. Gas is *not* safe and should not be allowed in residential areas, With good reason. I've lived in areas with natural gas heat for over half a century and seen damn few accidents, and many of those were caused by morons who didn't heed the Call Before You Dig warnings or who couldn't be trusted to light a water heater according to the simple instructions stuck to the side. yet nearly every day there is a house explosion due to a nat. gas leak, Documentation please. Just do some searching on your favorite news site (CNN.com, local TV station sites, newspapers, etc.) for "explosion" and then filter out the few explosions that were not due to nat. gas. Don't search on "gas explosion" since often the story title is "house explosion" "business explosion" or the like and you have to read the story to find that it was a gas leak that caused it. You will find thousands of reports from across the country. Many are without fatalities due to folks at work, got out in time, etc., but plenty of fatalities as well, and of course the less frequent big ones like the CA explosion or one I recall in the northeast that leveled and apartment building. |
#8
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San Bruno go boom!
On Fri, 10 Sep 2010 19:48:35 -0500, Pete C. wrote:
DGDevin wrote: "Pete C." wrote in message ster.com... - People laugh at me when I say Nat. Gas is *not* safe and should not be allowed in residential areas, With good reason. I've lived in areas with natural gas heat for over half a century and seen damn few accidents, and many of those were caused by morons who didn't heed the Call Before You Dig warnings or who couldn't be trusted to light a water heater according to the simple instructions stuck to the side. yet nearly every day there is a house explosion due to a nat. gas leak, Documentation please. Just do some searching on your favorite news site (CNN.com, local TV station sites, newspapers, etc.) for "explosion" and then filter out the few explosions that were not due to nat. gas. Don't search on "gas explosion" since often the story title is "house explosion" "business explosion" or the like and you have to read the story to find that it was a gas leak that caused it. You will find thousands of reports from across the country. Many are without fatalities due to folks at work, got out in time, etc., but plenty of fatalities as well, and of course the less frequent big ones like the CA explosion or one I recall in the northeast that leveled and apartment building. I live close to New London, Texas where the school had a big gas explosion in 1937. The school had free gas from the oilfield. Someone told me they installed the wrong regulator (made for lower inlet pressure) and it failed open. There were a lot of fatalities from that. Supposedly, that explosion is why they started adding something smelly to gas. -- 105 days until The winter celebration (Saturday December 25, 2010 12:00:00 AM). Mark Lloyd http://notstupid.us In cocktail lounge: "Ladies are requested not to have children in the bar." |
#9
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San Bruno go boom!
Mark Lloyd wrote: On Fri, 10 Sep 2010 19:48:35 -0500, Pete C. wrote: DGDevin wrote: "Pete C." wrote in message ster.com... - People laugh at me when I say Nat. Gas is *not* safe and should not be allowed in residential areas, With good reason. I've lived in areas with natural gas heat for over half a century and seen damn few accidents, and many of those were caused by morons who didn't heed the Call Before You Dig warnings or who couldn't be trusted to light a water heater according to the simple instructions stuck to the side. yet nearly every day there is a house explosion due to a nat. gas leak, Documentation please. Just do some searching on your favorite news site (CNN.com, local TV station sites, newspapers, etc.) for "explosion" and then filter out the few explosions that were not due to nat. gas. Don't search on "gas explosion" since often the story title is "house explosion" "business explosion" or the like and you have to read the story to find that it was a gas leak that caused it. You will find thousands of reports from across the country. Many are without fatalities due to folks at work, got out in time, etc., but plenty of fatalities as well, and of course the less frequent big ones like the CA explosion or one I recall in the northeast that leveled and apartment building. I live close to New London, Texas where the school had a big gas explosion in 1937. The school had free gas from the oilfield. Someone told me they installed the wrong regulator (made for lower inlet pressure) and it failed open. There were a lot of fatalities from that. Supposedly, that explosion is why they started adding something smelly to gas. Yep, many many fatalities due to dangerous nat. gas use over the years. Swept under the rug by the nat. gas monopolies of course. Per the NFPA documents I posted the link to, 2000-2004 averaged 2,410 home structure fires due to nat. gas per year. That works out to an average of 6.6 such nat. gas caused fires each and every *day*. If you include the 1,390 LP gas residential fires per year, that makes 10.41 residential fires caused by unsafe gaseous fuel use every day. Yes, 3,800 incidents and the resulting 66 fatalities and 404 injuries per year are much lower than auto fatalities and injuries, however these fatalities and injuries could be prevented by eliminating the unsafe gaseous fuel use, or at least substantially reduced by mandating the inexpensive gas detectors in every home using gaseous fuels, just like CO detectors are mandated. |
#10
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San Bruno go boom!
"Pete C." wrote in message ster.com... yet nearly every day there is a house explosion due to a nat. gas leak, Documentation please. Just do some searching on your favorite news site Here's how it works--you made the claim, you back it up. |
#11
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San Bruno go boom!
DGDevin wrote: "Pete C." wrote in message ster.com... yet nearly every day there is a house explosion due to a nat. gas leak, Documentation please. Just do some searching on your favorite news site Here's how it works--you made the claim, you back it up. Here are some statistics for you: http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/PDF...sFactSheet.pdf http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/PDF/GasFactSheet.pdf http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/PDF...eFactSheet.pdf I expect you'll consider the NFPA a reputable source. |
#12
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San Bruno go boom!
On Fri, 10 Sep 2010 08:58:23 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote: - People laugh at me when I say Nat. Gas is *not* safe and should not be allowed in residential areas, yet nearly every day there is a house explosion due to a nat. gas leak, and every year or two a big incident like this one. I recall an apartment building in the northeast (NJ?) being leveled by one of these nat. gas transmission lines exploding under it. That laughter you speak of may be due to your humor. There are annually over 33,000 traffic fatalities in the U.S., and that the lowest in about 60 years. Do you also believe we should eliminate automobiles? |
#13
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San Bruno go boom!
Gordon Shumway wrote: On Fri, 10 Sep 2010 08:58:23 -0500, "Pete C." wrote: - People laugh at me when I say Nat. Gas is *not* safe and should not be allowed in residential areas, yet nearly every day there is a house explosion due to a nat. gas leak, and every year or two a big incident like this one. I recall an apartment building in the northeast (NJ?) being leveled by one of these nat. gas transmission lines exploding under it. That laughter you speak of may be due to your humor. There are annually over 33,000 traffic fatalities in the U.S., and that the lowest in about 60 years. Do you also believe we should eliminate automobiles? I frequently get that nonsensical argument. The fact is that we do not have a reasonable alternative to automobiles, while we have a number of reasonable and much safer alternatives to nat. gas. |
#14
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San Bruno go boom!
In article .com,
"Pete C." wrote: I frequently get that nonsensical argument. The fact is that we do not have a reasonable alternative to automobiles, while we have a number of reasonable and much safer alternatives to nat. gas. You still haven't given any verified data indicating the danger you are so sure is happening. Until then I would remind you that anecdote is not the singular of data. And Google and CNN random news accounts certainly don't fit that bill. What are the more safer alternatives? -- I want to find a voracious, small-minded predator and name it after the IRS. Robert Bakker, paleontologist |
#15
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San Bruno go boom!
Kurt Ullman wrote: In article .com, "Pete C." wrote: I frequently get that nonsensical argument. The fact is that we do not have a reasonable alternative to automobiles, while we have a number of reasonable and much safer alternatives to nat. gas. You still haven't given any verified data indicating the danger you are so sure is happening. Until then I would remind you that anecdote is not the singular of data. And Google and CNN random news accounts certainly don't fit that bill. I'm not aware of any central nat. gas explosion clearing house, so you'll just have to rely on the thousands of news reports of such explosions for your proof, unless of course you think CNN and all the various other TV stations and newspapers are faking those reports. What are the more safer alternatives? In no particular order: Oil, wood, solar, coal, electric (resistive or heat pump) none of which have ever caused a house explosion and killed people. Yes, some of those heating sources have been known to cause house fires, but those are slow and escapable unlike nat. gas explosions. Requiring gas detectors ($50 or so) in homes with nat. gas would go a long way towards improving safety, and indeed the generally required CO detectors are available in dual CO / gas detectors for about $60. |
#16
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San Bruno go boom!
"Pete C." wrote in
ster.com: David Nebenzahl wrote: Been watching the teevee nooz coverage of the San Bruno [San Francisco peninsula] gas main explosion and conflagration. Wow. I used to live about a mile away from that spot, across Skyline Blvd.; used to shop at the Lunardi's just across the road. The news reported lots of people saying they'd been smelling gas in the neighborhood for the last week or so. One can only hope that PG&E (Pure Greed & Extortion) gets raked over the coals, literally, for this one. A few comments on this: - People said they had smelled gas for a week, did any of those people bother to report it? - People laugh at me when I say Nat. Gas is *not* safe and should not be allowed in residential areas, yet nearly every day there is a house explosion due to a nat. gas leak, and every year or two a big incident like this one. I recall an apartment building in the northeast (NJ?) being leveled by one of these nat. gas transmission lines exploding under it. - Gas detectors are pretty inexpensive, they're included in every RV. Various technologies exist to allow the gas monopolies to install gas monitors in the areas where they pipe their dangerous product. It would not be especially expensive to install remote gas detectors in the area that would not rely on some person actually calling the monopoly to report a possible gas leak. The gas detectors also are more sensitive than human noses so they could detect a small leak blowing past. With properly maintained facilities, natural gas is safe. Considering the number of households and commercial establishments of all kinds that use NG, the number of accidents and fatalities is small. Gasoline etc probably have at least as many (BP well blowing up). Now as far as proper maintenance, I don't understand the use of a 54" inch main gas line only 3 feet under a residential area. In an earthquake prone region. I bet that it will turn out that the residents have warned many times (probably crying wolf too many times, as far as PG&E was concerned), and that the line was NOT inspected often enough and recently enough. Wouldn't want to have shares in that company ... But, mismanagement by 1 company shouldn't condemn the whole concept. Of course, it is OT, and YMMV!! -- Best regards Han email address is invalid |
#17
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San Bruno go boom!
Han wrote: "Pete C." wrote in ster.com: David Nebenzahl wrote: Been watching the teevee nooz coverage of the San Bruno [San Francisco peninsula] gas main explosion and conflagration. Wow. I used to live about a mile away from that spot, across Skyline Blvd.; used to shop at the Lunardi's just across the road. The news reported lots of people saying they'd been smelling gas in the neighborhood for the last week or so. One can only hope that PG&E (Pure Greed & Extortion) gets raked over the coals, literally, for this one. A few comments on this: - People said they had smelled gas for a week, did any of those people bother to report it? - People laugh at me when I say Nat. Gas is *not* safe and should not be allowed in residential areas, yet nearly every day there is a house explosion due to a nat. gas leak, and every year or two a big incident like this one. I recall an apartment building in the northeast (NJ?) being leveled by one of these nat. gas transmission lines exploding under it. - Gas detectors are pretty inexpensive, they're included in every RV. Various technologies exist to allow the gas monopolies to install gas monitors in the areas where they pipe their dangerous product. It would not be especially expensive to install remote gas detectors in the area that would not rely on some person actually calling the monopoly to report a possible gas leak. The gas detectors also are more sensitive than human noses so they could detect a small leak blowing past. With properly maintained facilities, natural gas is safe. Considering the number of households and commercial establishments of all kinds that use NG, the number of accidents and fatalities is small. Gasoline etc probably have at least as many (BP well blowing up). Some 6.6 residential nat. gas fires and/or explosions (they tend to go together) per *DAY* (NFPA statistics) may be small relative to the total number of residential nat. gas installations, but it is unacceptably high given the many safer alternatives, and at the very least the availability of inexpensive gas detectors (every RV has one). Now as far as proper maintenance, I don't understand the use of a 54" inch main gas line only 3 feet under a residential area. In an earthquake prone region. I bet that it will turn out that the residents have warned many times (probably crying wolf too many times, as far as PG&E was concerned), and that the line was NOT inspected often enough and recently enough. Wouldn't want to have shares in that company ... A nat. gas transmission line that blew in the northeast (NJ I believe) was *under* and apartment building. What ****-for-brains allowed that, and how much were they bribed? |
#18
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San Bruno go boom!
"Pete C." wrote in news:4c8c61cf$0$14815
: A nat. gas transmission line that blew in the northeast (NJ I believe) was *under* and apartment building. What ****-for-brains allowed that, and how much were they bribed? See my other answer - it was NEXT to an apartment building and inadequate inspection and maintenance was responsible. Also, I said above that one should examine what might be in the area that you contemplate moving to. -- Best regards Han email address is invalid |
#19
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San Bruno go boom!
"A. Baum" wrote in
news Was the 54" main there when the allotment was created or installed after? The community dates from the 60s. I don't know who was first. I don't think it matters at this moment. -- Best regards Han email address is invalid |
#20
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San Bruno go boom!
"A. Baum" wrote in newsan.2010.09.11.22.07.07@
50kilotons.net.not: On Sat, 11 Sep 2010 21:40:08 +0000, Han wrote: "A. Baum" wrote in news Was the 54" main there when the allotment was created or installed after? The community dates from the 60s. I don't know who was first. I don't think it matters at this moment. Sure it matters. Maybe not to the explosion victims so much but rather that you seemed to place PG&E at fault for placing the 54" 3 feet under the community. Can't quote you exactly since you snipped that part out. The only thing I heard/read was a 54" main gas line that was 3' underground in a residential community. -- Best regards Han email address is invalid |
#21
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San Bruno go boom!
On 9/11/2010 4:25 PM Han spake thus:
"A. Baum" wrote in newsan.2010.09.11.22.07.07@ 50kilotons.net.not: On Sat, 11 Sep 2010 21:40:08 +0000, Han wrote: "A. Baum" wrote in news Was the 54" main there when the allotment was created or installed after? The community dates from the 60s. I don't know who was first. I don't think it matters at this moment. Sure it matters. Maybe not to the explosion victims so much but rather that you seemed to place PG&E at fault for placing the 54" 3 feet under the community. Can't quote you exactly since you snipped that part out. The only thing I heard/read was a 54" main gas line that was 3' underground in a residential community. Pretty sure that it is a 24" line. That's what I've been hearing from the teevee nooz the last couple days here. -- The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring, with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags. - Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com) |
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