I have to replace about 20 feet of 1-inch black poly pipe between the
house and the five-zone manifold. About six feet of the pipe passes
under a paver brick walkway, which I don't want to disturb. The pipe is
about 6-8" below the soil, in Central New Jersey.

The first sprinkler company I called said the walkway must be disturbed,
and it would be up to me to make arrangements to remove and restore the
pavers. If I tackled that job myself, then I could easily replace the
pipe as well.

The second company said he would simply pass a 3/4" section of pipe
through the existing 1" pipe under the walkway, then use adapters to
transition back to 1 inch. (I don't know if meant to make the entire run
3/4" or just the part passing under the walkway. He's looking over the
job tomorrow.)

I asked about the reduced flow available through the 3/4" pipe. He said
that as long as I don't have more than five sprinkler heads on a zone, I
would be okay. My heads are all pop-ups, mostly rotaries by Hunter, but
a few non-rotaries, and there are only five per zone, so it sounds okay.
One site says that typical head delivers 1/2 gal/minute, so with five
per zone, that's 2.5 gpm, well below what a 3/4" pipe can deliver (about
23 gpm).

Any comments on using 3/4" pipe, or other suggestions for not disturbing
the walkway? One website suggested blasting a hole using full-force
water through a garden hose. Other suggestions are he
http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/...341731539.html

Thanks,

Ray

On Sep 9, 8:09*am, Rebel1 wrote:
I have to replace about 20 feet of 1-inch black poly pipe between the
house and the five-zone manifold. About six feet of the pipe passes
under a paver brick walkway, which I don't want to disturb. The pipe is
about 6-8" below the soil, in Central New Jersey.

The first sprinkler company I called said the walkway must be disturbed,
and it would be up to me to make arrangements to remove and restore the
pavers. If I tackled that job myself, then I could easily replace the
pipe as well.

The second company said he would simply pass a 3/4" section of pipe
through the existing 1" pipe under the walkway, then use adapters to
transition back to 1 inch. (I don't know if meant to make the entire run
3/4" or just the part passing under the walkway. He's looking over the
job tomorrow.)

I asked about the reduced flow available through the 3/4" pipe. He said
that as long as I don't have more than five sprinkler heads on a zone, I
would be okay. My heads are all pop-ups, mostly rotaries by Hunter, but
a few non-rotaries, and there are only five per zone, so it sounds okay.
One site says that typical head delivers 1/2 gal/minute, so with five
per zone, that's 2.5 gpm, well below what a 3/4" pipe can deliver (about
23 gpm).

Any comments on using 3/4" pipe, or other suggestions for not disturbing
the walkway? One website suggested blasting a hole using full-force
water through a garden hose. Other suggestions are hehttp://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/...341731539.html

Thanks,

Ray

First question is, what's wrong with the 1" section that runs under
the sidewalk now? Usually this pipe lasts virtually forever, unless
it gets damaged. Unless there is evidence that it is all failing for
some reason, then I'd just leave the section under the sidewalk and
use it.

Second, any irrigation company that tells the homeowner they have to
remove the paver sidewalk is being run by idiots. Any decent
company has the eqpt to easily get a 1" pipe under a sidewalk. They
use a driving tool that is powered off an air compressor and do it
every day to cross 20ft driveways or more.

In your case, that span could also be crossed by hand, using a steel
driving pipe and sledgehammer without very much difficulty.

The 3/4" pipe solution for the sidewalk could be OK. Besides the
number of heads, it also depends on how many GPM the heads. But I
have to wonder. Will 3/4" pipe fit thorugh 1" pipe? Would seem to me
it could be a close fit.

As I think more about it, maybe another approach will work.

There is 5 feet of pipe between the house and the walkway, 5 feet under
the walkway, and 12-15 feet more to the manifold.

1. I dig on both sides of the walkway until all the pipe is exposed.
2. I cut and remove the section between the walkway and the house, and
cover the exposed end to prevent soil from entering during step 5.
3. I cut the pipe on other side of the walkway, leaving a 1-foot "stub,"
and remove the pipe all the way to the manifold.
4. I connect the replacement pipe to this stub with an ordinary
lawn-pipe connector that slips inside both ends. (I pour hot water on
the ends of the pipe to make inserting the connector easier.)
5. I simply push the new pipe under the walkway toward the house and cut
off the old section after it emerges.

Of course there will be the friction of the soil to overcome. But the
break is under the walkway, so before starting the above, I'll simply
turn on the water for a couple of seconds so the water coming out of the
break will act as a lubricant.

Have I overlooked something?

Ray

On Sep 9, 9:05*am, Rebel1 wrote:
As I think more about it, maybe another approach will work.

There is 5 feet of pipe between the house and the walkway, 5 feet under
the walkway, and 12-15 feet more to the manifold.

1. I dig on both sides of the walkway until all the pipe is exposed.
2. I cut and remove the section between the walkway and the house, and
cover the exposed end to prevent soil from entering during step 5.
3. I cut the pipe on other side of the walkway, leaving a 1-foot "stub,"
and remove the pipe all the way to the *manifold.
4. I connect the replacement pipe to this stub with an ordinary
lawn-pipe connector that slips inside both ends. (I pour hot water on
the ends of the pipe to make inserting the connector easier.)
5. I simply push the new pipe under the walkway toward the house and cut
off the old section after it emerges.

Of course there will be the friction of the soil to overcome. But the
break is under the walkway, so before starting the above, I'll simply
turn on the water for a couple of seconds so the water coming out of the
break will act as a lubricant.

Have I overlooked something?

Ray

Sure if you are going to do the work yourself that's not a bad
solution. I'd do that. In your original post it sounded like you
were going to hire it out. That's different, in that case you want
the fastest solution that is acceptable. Because time = money when
you are hiring someone to do something. If you do it yourself time is
free.

Ray

Sure if you are going to do the work yourself that's not a bad
solution. I'd do that. In your original post it sounded like you
were going to hire it out. That's different, in that case you want
the fastest solution that is acceptable. Because time = money when
you are hiring someone to do something. If you do it yourself time is
free.

The original plan was to hire out. But after thinking about one's guys
suggestion for threading the 3/4" pipe though the 1" one, I came up with
this approach just about two hours ago.

On Sep 9, 10:17*am, Rebel1 wrote:
Ray

Sure if you are going to do the work yourself that's not a bad
solution. *I'd do that. *In your original post it sounded like you
were going to hire it out. *That's different, in that case you want
the fastest solution that is acceptable. *Because time = money when
you are hiring someone to do something. *If you do it yourself time is
free.

The original plan was to hire out. But after thinking about one's guys
suggestion for threading the 3/4" pipe though the 1" one, I came up with
this approach just about two hours ago.

I've got a mix of 1" and 3/4" white pvc. Our irrigation slowly
expanded over the years because I did it all myself. In the begining
I was cautious to only use 1" for anything that had large rotating
sprayer heads on it. But as time went on I realized that the 3/4
really was not as much an issue as I thought it was. Our service from
the street is 3/4". You can always use smaller nozzles and run for
longer too.

On Sep 9, 9:05*am, Rebel1 wrote:
As I think more about it, maybe another approach will work.

There is 5 feet of pipe between the house and the walkway, 5 feet under
the walkway, and 12-15 feet more to the manifold.

1. I dig on both sides of the walkway until all the pipe is exposed.
2. I cut and remove the section between the walkway and the house, and
cover the exposed end to prevent soil from entering during step 5.
3. I cut the pipe on other side of the walkway, leaving a 1-foot "stub,"
and remove the pipe all the way to the *manifold.
4. I connect the replacement pipe to this stub with an ordinary
lawn-pipe connector that slips inside both ends. (I pour hot water on
the ends of the pipe to make inserting the connector easier.)
5. I simply push the new pipe under the walkway toward the house and cut
off the old section after it emerges.

Of course there will be the friction of the soil to overcome. But the
break is under the walkway, so before starting the above, I'll simply
turn on the water for a couple of seconds so the water coming out of the
break will act as a lubricant.

Have I overlooked something?

Ray

No, you haven't overlooked anything, but I think you have seriously
underestimated the friction of the soil against the existing pipe.
IMO, ain't no way you're gonna just pull on one end and have a new
piece of pipe follow the old one.

Use a steel pipe, with one end beat closed to form a chisel type end,
a cap on the other and a sledge hammer. It;'s only a sidewalk, not
the island of Manhattan you have to cross.

wrote:
On Sep 9, 8:09 am, Rebel1 wrote:


First question is, what's wrong with the 1" section that runs under
the sidewalk now? Usually this pipe lasts virtually forever, unless
it gets damaged. Unless there is evidence that it is all failing for
some reason, then I'd just leave the section under the sidewalk and
use it.

It's leaking right below the paver walkway.

Second, any irrigation company that tells the homeowner they have to
remove the paver sidewalk is being run by idiots. Any decent
company has the eqpt to easily get a 1" pipe under a sidewalk. They
use a driving tool that is powered off an air compressor and do it
every day to cross 20ft driveways or more.

In your case, that span could also be crossed by hand, using a steel
driving pipe and sledgehammer without very much difficulty.

The 3/4" pipe solution for the sidewalk could be OK. Besides the
number of heads, it also depends on how many GPM the heads. But I
have to wonder. Will 3/4" pipe fit thorugh 1" pipe? Would seem to me
it could be a close fit.

I'll find that out first-hand tomorrow, when the guy comes for an estimate.

The present 1" pipe has an inside diameter of 1.0" and a wall thickness
of 1/16". Assuming the 3/4" pipe has the same wall thickness, its
outside diameter would be 3/4 + 1/16 + 1/16 = 7/8". That only leaves
1/8" of clearance, but how much does one need? (Assuming everything is
round, rather that slightly oval.)

Rebel1 wrote:
I have to replace about 20 feet of 1-inch black poly pipe between the
house and the five-zone manifold. About six feet of the pipe passes
under a paver brick walkway, which I don't want to disturb. The pipe is
about 6-8" below the soil, in Central New Jersey.

The first sprinkler company I called said the walkway must be disturbed,
and it would be up to me to make arrangements to remove and restore the
pavers. If I tackled that job myself, then I could easily replace the
pipe as well.

The second company said he would simply pass a 3/4" section of pipe
through the existing 1" pipe under the walkway, then use adapters to
transition back to 1 inch. (I don't know if meant to make the entire run
3/4" or just the part passing under the walkway. He's looking over the
job tomorrow.)

I asked about the reduced flow available through the 3/4" pipe. He said
that as long as I don't have more than five sprinkler heads on a zone, I
would be okay. My heads are all pop-ups, mostly rotaries by Hunter, but
a few non-rotaries, and there are only five per zone, so it sounds okay.
One site says that typical head delivers 1/2 gal/minute, so with five
per zone, that's 2.5 gpm, well below what a 3/4" pipe can deliver (about
23 gpm).

Any comments on using 3/4" pipe, or other suggestions for not disturbing
the walkway? One website suggested blasting a hole using full-force
water through a garden hose. Other suggestions are he
http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/...341731539.html

Thanks,

Ray
If the walkway is properly built, there is probably a layer of gravel
under it (possibly some gravel caused the leak) so you will have to deal
with that, probably by going under it.

I had a similar situation. I bought some PVC and cut some teeth in one
end. Using a strap wrench, a sledge, a garden hose (I ran this into the
pipe every few minutes and used the water to erode the dirt), and some
creative languaqe, I got the PVC to the other side of the sidewalk. I
left the PVC in place to help support the sidewalk, and easily slid my
poly through this tunnel. I used 2 inch PVC as it seemed stronger and
would take the twisting and hammering, and would easily hold the one
inch poly.

In article ,
Rebel1 wrote:



The present 1" pipe has an inside diameter of 1.0" and a wall thickness
of 1/16". Assuming the 3/4" pipe has the same wall thickness, its
outside diameter would be 3/4 + 1/16 + 1/16 = 7/8". That only leaves
1/8" of clearance, but how much does one need? (Assuming everything is
round, rather that slightly oval.)

The stuff under the walk leaks. Therefore, it has at least one hole in
it. That hole didn't just get drilled in there neatly, so I imagine
there's some crushing and tearing going on, and some nice big burrs. The
3/4 might have fit inside when the 1" was new, but I'm skeptical about
it now.

On Sep 9, 12:22*pm, Notat Home wrote:
Rebel1 wrote:
I have to replace about 20 feet of 1-inch black poly pipe between the
house and the five-zone manifold. About six feet of the pipe passes
under a paver brick walkway, which I don't want to disturb. The pipe is
about 6-8" below the soil, in Central New Jersey.

The first sprinkler company I called said the walkway must be disturbed,
and it would be up to me to make arrangements to remove and restore the
pavers. If I tackled that job myself, then I could easily replace the
pipe as well.

The second company said he would simply pass a 3/4" section of pipe
through the existing 1" pipe under the walkway, then use adapters to
transition back to 1 inch. (I don't know if meant to make the entire run
3/4" or just the part passing under the walkway. He's looking over the
job tomorrow.)

I asked about the reduced flow available through the 3/4" pipe. He said
that as long as I don't have more than five sprinkler heads on a zone, I
would be okay. My heads are all pop-ups, mostly rotaries by Hunter, but
a few non-rotaries, and there are only five per zone, so it sounds okay..
One site says that typical head delivers 1/2 gal/minute, so with five
per zone, that's 2.5 gpm, well below what a 3/4" pipe can deliver (about
23 gpm).

Any comments on using 3/4" pipe, or other suggestions for not disturbing
the walkway? One website suggested blasting a hole using full-force
water through a garden hose. Other suggestions are he
http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/...341731539.html

Thanks,

Ray

If the walkway is properly built, there is probably a layer of gravel
under it (possibly some gravel caused the leak) so you will have to deal
with that, probably by going under it.

I had a similar situation. *I bought some PVC and cut some teeth in one
end. *Using a strap wrench, a sledge, a garden hose (I ran this into the
pipe every few minutes and used the water to erode the dirt), and some
creative languaqe, I got the PVC to the other side of the sidewalk. *I
left the PVC in place to help support the sidewalk, and easily slid my
poly through this tunnel. *I used 2 inch PVC as it seemed stronger and
would take the twisting and hammering, and would easily hold the one
inch poly.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

That's not a bad idea. I'd be tempted to 1 1/4" just cause it's
smaller and would be easier to get through.

Rebel1 wrote:
As I think more about it, maybe another approach will work.

There is 5 feet of pipe between the house and the walkway, 5 feet
under the walkway, and 12-15 feet more to the manifold.

1. I dig on both sides of the walkway until all the pipe is exposed.
2. I cut and remove the section between the walkway and the house, and
cover the exposed end to prevent soil from entering during step 5.
3. I cut the pipe on other side of the walkway, leaving a 1-foot
"stub," and remove the pipe all the way to the manifold.
4. I connect the replacement pipe to this stub with an ordinary
lawn-pipe connector that slips inside both ends. (I pour hot water on
the ends of the pipe to make inserting the connector easier.)
5. I simply push the new pipe under the walkway toward the house and
cut off the old section after it emerges.

Of course there will be the friction of the soil to overcome. But the
break is under the walkway, so before starting the above, I'll simply
turn on the water for a couple of seconds so the water coming out of
the break will act as a lubricant.

Have I overlooked something?

Ray

get a piece of 1" pvc thick walled pipe. glue a hose thread female adapter
to one end. put a hose thread mail end on the other end.

dig a trench long enough on one side of the walk deep enough to get below
the walk and any stone base. hook a hose to the female end. use a brass hose
nozzle on the male end. turn water to hose on full blast. adjust nozzle to
get a powerful thin get. insert pipe in trench and aim jet under the walk.
you'll probably jet a hole under the walk in less than 30 minutes. remove
both ends of the pipe and use it either directly, or thread your new pipe
through it.

Sounds like a fun little project please lets us no how it works out.


--
Airport Shuttle

'' (http://www.yourcityride.com)
Message origin: TRAVEL.com

Smitty Two wrote:
In article ,
Rebel1 wrote:


The present 1" pipe has an inside diameter of 1.0" and a wall thickness
of 1/16". Assuming the 3/4" pipe has the same wall thickness, its
outside diameter would be 3/4 + 1/16 + 1/16 = 7/8". That only leaves
1/8" of clearance, but how much does one need? (Assuming everything is
round, rather that slightly oval.)

The stuff under the walk leaks. Therefore, it has at least one hole in
it. That hole didn't just get drilled in there neatly, so I imagine
there's some crushing and tearing going on, and some nice big burrs. The
3/4 might have fit inside when the 1" was new, but I'm skeptical about
it now.

I had been doing other repair work on the pipes - the section nearest
the house had sprung a leak - and when I put the water on to test it,
one zone had a lot of pounding (maybe from the air that was temporarily
in the system). This may have been the pressure surges that ultimately
led to the major failure in the section below the walkway.

chaniarts wrote:
Rebel1 wrote:
As I think more about it, maybe another approach will work.

There is 5 feet of pipe between the house and the walkway, 5 feet
under the walkway, and 12-15 feet more to the manifold.

1. I dig on both sides of the walkway until all the pipe is exposed.
2. I cut and remove the section between the walkway and the house,
and cover the exposed end to prevent soil from entering during step
5. 3. I cut the pipe on other side of the walkway, leaving a 1-foot
"stub," and remove the pipe all the way to the manifold.
4. I connect the replacement pipe to this stub with an ordinary
lawn-pipe connector that slips inside both ends. (I pour hot water on
the ends of the pipe to make inserting the connector easier.)
5. I simply push the new pipe under the walkway toward the house and
cut off the old section after it emerges.

Of course there will be the friction of the soil to overcome. But the
break is under the walkway, so before starting the above, I'll simply
turn on the water for a couple of seconds so the water coming out of
the break will act as a lubricant.

Have I overlooked something?

Ray

get a piece of 1" pvc thick walled pipe. glue a hose thread female
adapter to one end. put a hose thread male end on the other end.

dig a trench long enough on one side of the walk deep enough to get
below the walk and any stone base. hook a hose to the female end. use
a brass hose nozzle on the male end. turn water to hose on full
blast. adjust nozzle to get a powerful thin jet. insert pipe in
trench and aim nozzle under the walk. you'll probably jet a hole under
the walk in less than 30 minutes. remove both ends of the pipe and
use it either directly, or thread your new pipe through it.

Notat Home wrote:

If the walkway is properly built, there is probably a layer of gravel
under it (possibly some gravel caused the leak) so you will have to deal
with that, probably by going under it.

I had a similar situation. I bought some PVC and cut some teeth in one
end. Using a strap wrench, a sledge, a garden hose (I ran this into the
pipe every few minutes and used the water to erode the dirt), and some
creative languaqe,

I excel at that.

I got the PVC to the other side of the sidewalk. I
left the PVC in place to help support the sidewalk, and easily slid my
poly through this tunnel. I used 2 inch PVC as it seemed stronger and
would take the twisting and hammering, and would easily hold the one
inch poly.

Thanks for the excellent idea. So much for me to consider over what
should be an easy task.

Ray

Rebel1 wrote:
wrote:

On Sep 9, 8:09 am, Rebel1 wrote:



First question is, what's wrong with the 1" section that runs under
the sidewalk now? Usually this pipe lasts virtually forever, unless
it gets damaged. Unless there is evidence that it is all failing for
some reason, then I'd just leave the section under the sidewalk and
use it.


It's leaking right below the paver walkway.


Second, any irrigation company that tells the homeowner they have to
remove the paver sidewalk is being run by idiots. Any decent
company has the eqpt to easily get a 1" pipe under a sidewalk. They
use a driving tool that is powered off an air compressor and do it
every day to cross 20ft driveways or more.

In your case, that span could also be crossed by hand, using a steel
driving pipe and sledgehammer without very much difficulty.

The 3/4" pipe solution for the sidewalk could be OK. Besides the
number of heads, it also depends on how many GPM the heads. But I
have to wonder. Will 3/4" pipe fit thorugh 1" pipe? Would seem to me
it could be a close fit.


I'll find that out first-hand tomorrow, when the guy comes for an estimate.

The present 1" pipe has an inside diameter of 1.0" and a wall thickness
of 1/16". Assuming the 3/4" pipe has the same wall thickness, its
outside diameter would be 3/4 + 1/16 + 1/16 = 7/8". That only leaves
1/8" of clearance, but how much does one need? (Assuming everything is
round, rather that slightly oval.)

And it runs fairly straight too. G

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
The speed of light is 1.8*10e12 furlongs per fortnight.

chaniarts wrote:

chaniarts wrote:

Rebel1 wrote:

As I think more about it, maybe another approach will work.

There is 5 feet of pipe between the house and the walkway, 5 feet
under the walkway, and 12-15 feet more to the manifold.

1. I dig on both sides of the walkway until all the pipe is exposed.
2. I cut and remove the section between the walkway and the house,
and cover the exposed end to prevent soil from entering during step
5. 3. I cut the pipe on other side of the walkway, leaving a 1-foot
"stub," and remove the pipe all the way to the manifold.
4. I connect the replacement pipe to this stub with an ordinary
lawn-pipe connector that slips inside both ends. (I pour hot water on
the ends of the pipe to make inserting the connector easier.)
5. I simply push the new pipe under the walkway toward the house and
cut off the old section after it emerges.

Of course there will be the friction of the soil to overcome. But the
break is under the walkway, so before starting the above, I'll simply
turn on the water for a couple of seconds so the water coming out of
the break will act as a lubricant.

Have I overlooked something?

Ray

get a piece of 1" pvc thick walled pipe. glue a hose thread female
adapter to one end. put a hose thread male end on the other end.

dig a trench long enough on one side of the walk deep enough to get
below the walk and any stone base. hook a hose to the female end. use
a brass hose nozzle on the male end. turn water to hose on full
blast. adjust nozzle to get a powerful thin jet. insert pipe in
trench and aim nozzle under the walk. you'll probably jet a hole under
the walk in less than 30 minutes. remove both ends of the pipe and
use it either directly, or thread your new pipe through it.




Assuming no large rocks intervene. G

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
The speed of light is 1.8*10e12 furlongs per fortnight.

Notat Home wrote:
Rebel1 wrote:
I have to replace about 20 feet of 1-inch black poly pipe between the
house and the five-zone manifold. About six feet of the pipe passes
under a paver brick walkway, which I don't want to disturb. The pipe
is about 6-8" below the soil, in Central New Jersey.

The first sprinkler company I called said the walkway must be
disturbed, and it would be up to me to make arrangements to remove
and restore the pavers. If I tackled that job myself, then I could
easily replace the pipe as well.

The second company said he would simply pass a 3/4" section of pipe
through the existing 1" pipe under the walkway, then use adapters to
transition back to 1 inch. (I don't know if meant to make the entire
run 3/4" or just the part passing under the walkway. He's looking
over the job tomorrow.)

I asked about the reduced flow available through the 3/4" pipe. He
said that as long as I don't have more than five sprinkler heads on
a zone, I would be okay. My heads are all pop-ups, mostly rotaries
by Hunter, but a few non-rotaries, and there are only five per zone,
so it sounds okay. One site says that typical head delivers 1/2
gal/minute, so with five per zone, that's 2.5 gpm, well below what a
3/4" pipe can deliver (about 23 gpm).

Any comments on using 3/4" pipe, or other suggestions for not
disturbing the walkway? One website suggested blasting a hole using
full-force water through a garden hose. Other suggestions are he
http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/...341731539.html

Thanks,

Ray
If the walkway is properly built, there is probably a layer of gravel
under it (possibly some gravel caused the leak) so you will have to
deal with that, probably by going under it.

I had a similar situation. I bought some PVC and cut some teeth in
one end. Using a strap wrench, a sledge, a garden hose (I ran this
into the pipe every few minutes and used the water to erode the
dirt), and some creative languaqe, I got the PVC to the other side of
the sidewalk. I left the PVC in place to help support the sidewalk,
and easily slid my poly through this tunnel. I used 2 inch PVC as it
seemed stronger and would take the twisting and hammering, and would
easily hold the one inch poly.

To install PVC well points, I used 2" PVC with "teeth" as you described, with an
adapter on one end to attach 2 garden hoses to (for extra volume). Turn on the
water and push/twist the pipe through the ground. The mud runs out alongside it.
It took me maybe 15-20 minutes to run the 2" PVC down 15 feet in my sandy soil.
YMMV. For the OP, you'd need enough ditch to get the PVC down to the level under
the walk and gravel, and to hold the mud/water that comes back out.

Hardware stores carry a blaster kit with a nozzle and female hose fitting for 1"
PVC pipe.

As of 4:30 pm today, I've completely exposed the pipe that's not under
the walkway. There are 52" between the walkway and the house, 52" under
the walkway, and 17 feet further on to the manifold.

My concern with water blasting to make a tunnel is that it will make a
hole larger than the OD of the pipe. Over time, the soil above the
tunnel will settle, leading to a depression in the walkway across the
width of the walkway.

Thanks to all for your excellent ideas and comments.

Will post again tomorrow afternoon, after the guru tells me his plan and
comments on my idea.

Ray

I recommend going back to the original plan, pull the pavers.

One of the best features of pavers over any other type (concrete,
blacktop, etc.) is that it is dead easy to pull them up, repair
underneath, and put them back undetectably.

When I lived in Germany my crew did this nearly every day. Unlike the
US, where we always had an ugly blacktop patch when we fixed a broken
water or sewer line under a sidewalk or street, in Germany it was
routine to fix it back to original condition.

Pull the pavers. Dig to the pipe and fix it right. Put the pavers
back. Done. If you take care it will look as good as new. You don't
even need a high degree of skill if you take your time and get it
level.

Rebel1 wrote:
As of 4:30 pm today, I've completely exposed the pipe that's not under
the walkway. There are 52" between the walkway and the house, 52" under
the walkway, and 17 feet further on to the manifold.

My concern with water blasting to make a tunnel is that it will make a
hole larger than the OD of the pipe. Over time, the soil above the
tunnel will settle, leading to a depression in the walkway across the
width of the walkway.

Thanks to all for your excellent ideas and comments.

Will post again tomorrow afternoon, after the guru tells me his plan and
comments on my idea.

Ray

The pro who over the phone said he would snake a 3/4" pipe under the
walkway through the existing 1" pipe just left. After seeing there was
only 52" under the walkway, he changed his approach to what I had been
considering. (For a much longer distance under the walkway, he would
have stuck with his original approach.) Just use a coupler, without
clamps that would drag along the soil, to connect the new 1" pipe to the
old and pull the new under the walkway by grabbing onto the old; the
coil of new pipe would be on the house side. I don't know why the
pulling wouldn't cause the coupling to separate, unless someone was also
pushing from the other side of the walkway.

He's coming Monday PM to do the job. Original price, $150, to replace
27' of pipe. I tentatively got him down to $125, but he said it was
really dependent on the difficulty of going under the walkway.

Ray

On Sep 10, 3:10*pm, Rebel1 wrote:
Rebel1 wrote:
As of 4:30 pm today, I've completely exposed the pipe that's not under
the walkway. There are 52" between the walkway and the house, 52" under
the walkway, and 17 feet further on to the manifold.

My concern with water blasting to make a tunnel is that it will make a
hole larger than the OD of the pipe. Over time, the soil above the
tunnel will settle, leading to a depression in the walkway across the
width of the walkway.

Thanks to all for your excellent ideas and comments.

Will post again tomorrow afternoon, after the guru tells me his plan and
comments on my idea.

Ray

The pro who over the phone said he would snake a 3/4" pipe under the
walkway through the existing 1" pipe just left. After seeing there was
only 52" under the walkway, he changed his approach to what I had been
considering. (For a much longer distance under the walkway, he would
have stuck with his original approach.) Just use a coupler, without
clamps that would drag along the soil, to connect the new 1" pipe to the
old and pull the new under the walkway by grabbing onto the old; the
coil of new pipe would be on the house side. I don't know why the
pulling wouldn't cause the coupling to separate, unless someone was also
pushing from the other side of the walkway.

With earth settled and packed in around the old pipe, I doubt it will
even move. But then, he's the pro. Let us know how it turns out.







He's coming Monday PM to do the job. Original price, $150, to replace
27' of pipe. I tentatively got him down to $125, but he said it was
really dependent on the difficulty of going under the walkway.

Ray- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Sep 10, 2:10*pm, Rebel1 wrote:
Rebel1 wrote:
As of 4:30 pm today, I've completely exposed the pipe that's not under
the walkway. There are 52" between the walkway and the house, 52" under
the walkway, and 17 feet further on to the manifold.

My concern with water blasting to make a tunnel is that it will make a
hole larger than the OD of the pipe. Over time, the soil above the
tunnel will settle, leading to a depression in the walkway across the
width of the walkway.

Thanks to all for your excellent ideas and comments.

Will post again tomorrow afternoon, after the guru tells me his plan and
comments on my idea.

Ray

The pro who over the phone said he would snake a 3/4" pipe under the
walkway through the existing 1" pipe just left. After seeing there was
only 52" under the walkway, he changed his approach to what I had been
considering. (For a much longer distance under the walkway, he would
have stuck with his original approach.) Just use a coupler, without
clamps that would drag along the soil, to connect the new 1" pipe to the
old and pull the new under the walkway by grabbing onto the old; the
coil of new pipe would be on the house side. I don't know why the
pulling wouldn't cause the coupling to separate, unless someone was also
pushing from the other side of the walkway.

He's coming Monday PM to do the job. Original price, $150, to replace
27' of pipe. I tentatively got him down to $125, but he said it was
really dependent on the difficulty of going under the walkway.

Ray- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Let us know, but start a new thread saying "Followup on pipe under
sidewalk" or something similar.

You know, I hate to be critical of anybody's approach. There's more
than one way to do ANY job, and I don't want to claim I have any
special expertise.

But I really think this is the dumb way to go. We're only talking six
feet of path, and an incredible amount of work and kluge jobs just to
avoid digging it and putting it back.

It's just not that hard to pull the brick pavers. And it's not that
hard to put them back. Six feet? It wouldn't take me more than an
hour extra.

And for that, you get the chance to be absolutely sure it is fixed
right under the sidewalk. How else are you going to do that? The
peace of mind alone is worth the sore back you may have from squatting
over the bricks.

Pull them with a pry bar and trowel. Dig. Level. Tamp. A little
stone dust. Sweep a little sand between them.

I've seen a lot of jacking under sidewalks, and i bet they cracked
them sooner or later about a third of the time. Yours won't crack,
but it will bulge, and you'll have a tripping hazard.

In article
,
"hr(bob) " wrote:

Let us know, but start a new thread saying "Followup on pipe under
sidewalk" or something similar.

You misspelled "don't start a new thread."

TimR wrote:
You know, I hate to be critical of anybody's approach. There's more
than one way to do ANY job, and I don't want to claim I have any
special expertise.

But I really think this is the dumb way to go. We're only talking six
feet of path, and an incredible amount of work and kluge jobs just to
avoid digging it and putting it back.

It's just not that hard to pull the brick pavers. And it's not that
hard to put them back. Six feet? It wouldn't take me more than an
hour extra.

And for that, you get the chance to be absolutely sure it is fixed
right under the sidewalk. How else are you going to do that? The
peace of mind alone is worth the sore back you may have from squatting
over the bricks.

Pull them with a pry bar and trowel. Dig. Level. Tamp. A little
stone dust. Sweep a little sand between them.

I've seen a lot of jacking under sidewalks, and i bet they cracked
them sooner or later about a third of the time. Yours won't crack,
but it will bulge, and you'll have a tripping hazard.

Tim,

I don't understand the comment about ending up with a bulge. He would be
reusing the same hole that the present pipe is in. Just couple the new
pipe to the old, and push (or pull) the old one out as the new one
enters the same space to replace it. No bulges, no long-term collapses
due to settling.

It's only 52", not six feet (72"). Now that I know the path of the pipe,
only 12-17 pavers would be involved. But my main concern is that the two
edge pavers are anchored by/in concrete, which I'm afraid to touch.
True, the width of each is only about six inches, so tunneling under
them and the anchoring concrete would be trivial. The remaining task
would be to tamp the removed pavers firmly into the bedding sand. I have
until Monday PM to change my mind.

Ray

wrote:
On Sep 10, 3:10 pm, Rebel1 wrote:
Rebel1 wrote:
As of 4:30 pm today, I've completely exposed the pipe that's not under
the walkway. There are 52" between the walkway and the house, 52" under
the walkway, and 17 feet further on to the manifold.
My concern with water blasting to make a tunnel is that it will make a
hole larger than the OD of the pipe. Over time, the soil above the
tunnel will settle, leading to a depression in the walkway across the
width of the walkway.
Thanks to all for your excellent ideas and comments.
Will post again tomorrow afternoon, after the guru tells me his plan and
comments on my idea.
Ray
The pro who over the phone said he would snake a 3/4" pipe under the
walkway through the existing 1" pipe just left. After seeing there was
only 52" under the walkway, he changed his approach to what I had been
considering. (For a much longer distance under the walkway, he would
have stuck with his original approach.) Just use a coupler, without
clamps that would drag along the soil, to connect the new 1" pipe to the
old and pull the new under the walkway by grabbing onto the old; the
coil of new pipe would be on the house side. I don't know why the
pulling wouldn't cause the coupling to separate, unless someone was also
pushing from the other side of the walkway.

With earth settled and packed in around the old pipe, I doubt it will
even move. But then, he's the pro. Let us know how it turns out.

You are right. I just cut one end of the pipe and tried to move it.
Wouldn't budge. Then I soaked the area above the pipe with water, hoping
it would act as a lubricant. Still wouldn't budge. (The area of the pipe
in contact with the soil is only 208 sq inches, or 1.5 sq feet. Pipe
OD=1.25" times 3.14 = circumference x 53" long = 208 sq inches.)

It looks like he'll go with his original idea of snaking 3/4" pipe
though the old pipe, unless he's a lot stronger than me or has some
gadget that grips the pipe with leverage.

But as I look a little more carefully at the pavers, I could probably
get by with removing just 12 of them (6 out from each side of the
center)to expose the pipe under most of the walkway. My fear is
disturbing the concrete that anchors the edging pavers.



He's coming Monday PM to do the job. Original price, $150, to replace
27' of pipe. I tentatively got him down to $125, but he said it was
really dependent on the difficulty of going under the walkway.

Ray- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Sep 11, 12:57*pm, Rebel1 wrote:
TimR wrote:
You know, I hate to be critical of anybody's approach. *There's more
than one way to do ANY job, and I don't want to claim I have any
special expertise.

But I really think this is the dumb way to go. *We're only talking six
feet of path, and an incredible amount of work and kluge jobs just to
avoid digging it and putting it back.

It's just not that hard to pull the brick pavers. *And it's not that
hard to put them back. *Six feet? *It wouldn't take me more than an
hour extra.

And for that, you get the chance to be absolutely sure it is fixed
right under the sidewalk. *How else are you going to do that? *The
peace of mind alone is worth the sore back you may have from squatting
over the bricks.

Pull them with a pry bar and trowel. *Dig. *Level. *Tamp. *A little
stone dust. *Sweep a little sand between them.

I've seen a lot of jacking under sidewalks, and i bet they cracked
them sooner or later about a third of the time. *Yours won't crack,
but it will bulge, and you'll have a tripping hazard.

Tim,

I don't understand the comment about ending up with a bulge. He would be
* reusing the same hole that the present pipe is in.

Yeah, you might be okay. I've had some recent bad luck with jacking
water pipe under a sidewalk and cracking it, I'm a little cautious
here.


It's only 52", not six feet (72"). Now that I know the path of the pipe,
only 12-17 pavers would be involved. But my main concern is that the two
edge pavers are anchored by/in concrete, which I'm afraid to touch.
True, the width of each is only about six inches, so tunneling under
them and the anchoring concrete would be trivial. The remaining task
would be to tamp the removed pavers firmly into the bedding sand. I have
until Monday PM to change my mind.

Ray

I didn't realize there was concrete to worry about. My theory was do
it right, do it once, and if it was just pavers there's no question in
my mind it would be easier to pull and replace. With concrete,
there's a chance it was poured on top of, and surrounding, the pipe at
the edge. You may want to dig and get a look at it to be sure. If
that's the case, there's no way to pull the pipe from the side.

Rebel1 wrote:
I have to replace about 20 feet of 1-inch black poly pipe between the
house and the five-zone manifold. About six feet of the pipe passes
under a paver brick walkway, which I don't want to disturb. The pipe is
about 6-8" below the soil, in Central New Jersey.

The first sprinkler company I called said the walkway must be disturbed,
and it would be up to me to make arrangements to remove and restore the
pavers. If I tackled that job myself, then I could easily replace the
pipe as well.

The second company said he would simply pass a 3/4" section of pipe
through the existing 1" pipe under the walkway, then use adapters to
transition back to 1 inch. (I don't know if meant to make the entire run
3/4" or just the part passing under the walkway. He's looking over the
job tomorrow.)

I asked about the reduced flow available through the 3/4" pipe. He said
that as long as I don't have more than five sprinkler heads on a zone, I
would be okay. My heads are all pop-ups, mostly rotaries by Hunter, but
a few non-rotaries, and there are only five per zone, so it sounds okay.
One site says that typical head delivers 1/2 gal/minute, so with five
per zone, that's 2.5 gpm, well below what a 3/4" pipe can deliver (about
23 gpm).

Any comments on using 3/4" pipe, or other suggestions for not disturbing
the walkway? One website suggested blasting a hole using full-force
water through a garden hose. Other suggestions are he
http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/...341731539.html

Thanks,

Ray

Rebel1 wrote:
As I think more about it, maybe another approach will work.

There is 5 feet of pipe between the house and the walkway, 5 feet
under the walkway, and 12-15 feet more to the manifold.

1. I dig on both sides of the walkway until all the pipe is exposed.
2. I cut and remove the section between the walkway and the house,
and cover the exposed end to prevent soil from entering during step 5.
3. I cut the pipe on other side of the walkway, leaving a 1-foot
"stub," and remove the pipe all the way to the manifold.
4. I connect the replacement pipe to this stub with an ordinary
lawn-pipe connector that slips inside both ends. (I pour hot water on
the ends of the pipe to make inserting the connector easier.)
5. I simply push the new pipe under the walkway toward the house and
cut off the old section after it emerges.

Of course there will be the friction of the soil to overcome. But the
break is under the walkway, so before starting the above, I'll simply
turn on the water for a couple of seconds so the water coming out of the
break will act as a lubricant.

Have I overlooked something?

Ray

Never underestimate the power of two muscular guys. They were able to
snake a new 1" pipe in the same hole as the old one, joining the new
with the old with a coupling, with one pushing, the other pulling. They
arrived at 2:10 and drove away 2:32. Very impressive.

Thanks, again, to everyone for your comments.

Ray

On 9/9/2010 7:17 AM, Rebel1 wrote:

Ray

Sure if you are going to do the work yourself that's not a bad
solution. I'd do that. In your original post it sounded like you
were going to hire it out. That's different, in that case you want
the fastest solution that is acceptable. Because time = money when
you are hiring someone to do something. If you do it yourself time is
free.

The original plan was to hire out. But after thinking about one's guys
suggestion for threading the 3/4" pipe though the 1" one, I came up with
this approach just about two hours ago.

My neighbor had a similar issue, but under a wide driveway. He used the
small pipe inside large pipe solution and it worked fine with the number
of sprinklers he had. maybe you'd have to adjust the existing sprinklers
for the lower pressure, that's all.

Depending on the width of the walkway, there are those water drills for
doing this exact thing. the make a bit of a mess but they do work.

That would draw a response, for sure.

I wonder if the same people who use computers to call others idiots.
If they would say that in person?

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"RicodJour"
wrote in message
...

Glad to hear it worked out. Maybe you could post a new thread with
the just the outcome - you know, so people won't be able to find
everything in one place.

R

In article ,
"Stormin Mormon" wrote:

That would draw a response, for sure.

I wonder if the same people who use computers to call others idiots.
If they would say that in person?

**** yes.

On Wed, 15 Sep 2010 06:05:25 -0700, Smitty Two
wrote:

In article ,
"Stormin Mormon" wrote:

That would draw a response, for sure.

I wonder if the same people who use computers to call others idiots.
If they would say that in person?

**** yes.

I'm usually pretty polite. But if I was to meet a guy on the street
who said he was the storming moron on a.h.r, I'd most certainly call
him an idiot.

Jim

In article ,
Jim Elbrecht wrote:

On Wed, 15 Sep 2010 06:05:25 -0700, Smitty Two
wrote:

In article ,
"Stormin Mormon" wrote:

That would draw a response, for sure.

I wonder if the same people who use computers to call others idiots.
If they would say that in person?

**** yes.

I'm usually pretty polite. But if I was to meet a guy on the street
who said he was the storming moron on a.h.r, I'd most certainly call
him an idiot.

Jim

yomank