In , Kurt Ullman wrote:
In article ,
"Percival P. Cassidy" wrote:

See the words "common sense"? That is not a phrase I am in the habit of
using in the same sentence as the term "HOA" -- unless the sentence also
includes a negative.

But this wasn't an HOA. It was the local government bureaucracy. You
take the idiocy of an HOA and concentrate it one hundred fold and you
are still not nearing the idiocy of a bureaucrat.

What I hear from family members and friends is that HOAS tend to be
worse because their busybodies are not lazy. While municipal governments
have more of a tendency to be lazy.

I have yet to hear of municipal governments forbidding people from
parking trucks on their driveways, regulating house paint colors and color
schemes to such extent as sometimes effectively specifying a particular
brand, forbidding people from working on their own cars on their own
driveways, forbidding above-ground pools where in-ground pools are
allowed, forbidding outdoor solar/wind drying of laundry, or forbidding
someone from romantically kissing a date in front of the home before going
in for the night.

That gets me thinking that in comparison, NYC is more reasonable despite
banning specific breeds of dogs and a cat hybrid, and CA is more
reasonable by banning sale of paraboloidal microphones and .50-BMG rifles.
That gets harder to enforce, since cops don't tour homes the way I hear
HOA busybodies often get to do one way or another. A cop needs a
warrant to look for my .50-BMG rifle or my paraboloidal microphone. Heck,
my experience is that landlords are not busybodies the way HOA board
members are said to be.

One laziness of some municipal governments: Make HOAs responsible for
maintenance of the sewer utility (if any) and
neighborhood-level/street-level water distribution, local roads, things like
that... Make the developer build those and write deeds ordaining
existence of an HOA whose duties include in part maintaining these...
The municipal government then gets to brag about its taxes being lower...
The HOA busybodies get to hire their buddies to do the maintenance on
the roads and the under-street water lines and any sewer lines there...

Do enough homeowners that have HOAs go to their HOA meetings to hold
to the fire the feet of "that level of government"? So that, for example,
road maintenance is performed at a reasonable frequency and to a
reasonable extent by the winner of a reasonable competitive bidding
process? (Of course, I wish people also held municipal gubmint feet to
their respective fires.)

Do enough homeowners who are not "busybodies" run for election to their
HOA boards? It's hard enough to get good-honest people to run for
municipal, county and state government offices for that matter!

And as much as Americans like to bash lawyers, why do Americans vote for
so many of them for state government legislative offices and for both
houses of US Congress?

--
- Don Klipstein )

In article ,
(Don Klipstein) wrote:

In , Kurt Ullman wrote:


What I hear from family members and friends is that HOAS tend to be
worse because their busybodies are not lazy. While municipal governments
have more of a tendency to be lazy.
Sorta depends. I have known bureaucrats to get a bug up their ass
about things and, with the police powers available to the government,
have made life miserable.


I have yet to hear of municipal governments forbidding people from
parking trucks on their driveways, regulating house paint colors and color
schemes to such extent as sometimes effectively specifying a particular
brand, forbidding people from working on their own cars on their own
driveways, forbidding above-ground pools where in-ground pools are
allowed, forbidding outdoor solar/wind drying of laundry, or forbidding
someone from romantically kissing a date in front of the home before going
in for the night.
There are a couple that come close. Things like driveways,
regulation of colors and in-ground pools have been included in the
zoning variances for subdivisions around here. Height is another biggy.
And then there are the restrictions on historic houses, but that is more
self-inflicted since you have to apply for them or know the status when
you buy them.


That gets harder to enforce, since cops don't tour homes the way I hear
HOA busybodies often get to do one way or another.

That is largely self-inflicted, again. You should know the
neighborhood busy-bodies and just don't invite them into your house.


And as much as Americans like to bash lawyers, why do Americans vote for
so many of them for state government legislative offices and for both
houses of US Congress?
Lawyers are the only ones who can take the time off from actually
doing work to run.

--
I want to find a voracious, small-minded predator
and name it after the IRS.
Robert Bakker, paleontologist

Kurt Ullman wrote:
In article ,
(Don Klipstein) wrote:

In , Kurt Ullman wrote:


What I hear from family members and friends is that HOAS tend to be
worse because their busybodies are not lazy. While municipal governments
have more of a tendency to be lazy.
Sorta depends. I have known bureaucrats to get a bug up their ass
about things and, with the police powers available to the government,
have made life miserable.

I have yet to hear of municipal governments forbidding people from
parking trucks on their driveways, regulating house paint colors and color
schemes to such extent as sometimes effectively specifying a particular
brand, forbidding people from working on their own cars on their own
driveways, forbidding above-ground pools where in-ground pools are
allowed, forbidding outdoor solar/wind drying of laundry, or forbidding
someone from romantically kissing a date in front of the home before going
in for the night.
There are a couple that come close. Things like driveways,
regulation of colors and in-ground pools have been included in the
zoning variances for subdivisions around here. Height is another biggy.
And then there are the restrictions on historic houses, but that is more
self-inflicted since you have to apply for them or know the status when
you buy them.

That gets harder to enforce, since cops don't tour homes the way I hear
HOA busybodies often get to do one way or another.

That is largely self-inflicted, again. You should know the
neighborhood busy-bodies and just don't invite them into your house.

And as much as Americans like to bash lawyers, why do Americans vote for
so many of them for state government legislative offices and for both
houses of US Congress?
Lawyers are the only ones who can take the time off from actually
doing work to run.


Florida passed a new condo law in, I believe, 2009, that bans board
members from serving on boards if they are in arrears with their
maintenance assessment. That would have saved a lot of grief for my
condo a few years back. Imagine condo owners wanting and needing
repairs, like new roof, and a deadbeat on the board voting it down. It
gets really, really nasty. There aren't any professional standards or
ethics in my area....

On 08/01/10 10:58 am, wrote:

Florida passed a new condo law in, I believe, 2009, that bans board
members from serving on boards if they are in arrears with their
maintenance assessment. That would have saved a lot of grief for my
condo a few years back. Imagine condo owners wanting and needing
repairs, like new roof, and a deadbeat on the board voting it down. It
gets really, really nasty. There aren't any professional standards or
ethics in my area....

Somebody told me that a condo/HOA board member will sometimes vote
against necessary maintenance because then s/he will have to pay an
assessment -- "I'm planning to move anyway, so let the people who come
later pay the assessment."

Perce

Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
On 08/01/10 10:58 am, wrote:

Florida passed a new condo law in, I believe, 2009, that bans board
members from serving on boards if they are in arrears with their
maintenance assessment. That would have saved a lot of grief for my
condo a few years back. Imagine condo owners wanting and needing
repairs, like new roof, and a deadbeat on the board voting it down. It
gets really, really nasty. There aren't any professional standards or
ethics in my area....

Somebody told me that a condo/HOA board member will sometimes vote
against necessary maintenance because then s/he will have to pay an
assessment -- "I'm planning to move anyway, so let the people who come
later pay the assessment."

Perce

I still have footprints on my face from former neighbors. After about
three years of really, really hostile turmoil between those who wanted
maintenance and those who didn't, a couple of owners sold and moved. We
were desparate to get things back to at least civil relationships and a
fairly responsible level of maintenance. Then comes a new owner who
bought two units to remodel without building permits and flip them.
They were pretty crass and didn't much know when to keep their mouths
shut....told us from git-go that they only planned on staying about two
years. OF COURSE they weren't going to ok large projects (like fixing
sagging roof) and they doubled their money. It's "Lets make a deal"
every day...go along and you are free to do anything you please."

On Sun, 1 Aug 2010 04:57:11 +0000 (UTC), (Don Klipstein)
wrote:

In , Kurt Ullman wrote:
In article ,
"Percival P. Cassidy" wrote:

See the words "common sense"? That is not a phrase I am in the habit of
using in the same sentence as the term "HOA" -- unless the sentence also
includes a negative.

But this wasn't an HOA. It was the local government bureaucracy. You
take the idiocy of an HOA and concentrate it one hundred fold and you
are still not nearing the idiocy of a bureaucrat.

What I hear from family members and friends is that HOAS tend to be
worse because their busybodies are not lazy. While municipal governments
have more of a tendency to be lazy.

I have yet to hear of municipal governments forbidding people from
parking trucks on their driveways, regulating house paint colors and color
schemes to such extent as sometimes effectively specifying a particular
brand, forbidding people from working on their own cars on their own
driveways, forbidding above-ground pools where in-ground pools are
allowed, forbidding outdoor solar/wind drying of laundry, or forbidding
someone from romantically kissing a date in front of the home before going
in for the night.

That gets me thinking that in comparison, NYC is more reasonable despite
banning specific breeds of dogs and a cat hybrid, and CA is more
reasonable by banning sale of paraboloidal microphones and .50-BMG rifles.
That gets harder to enforce, since cops don't tour homes the way I hear
HOA busybodies often get to do one way or another. A cop needs a
warrant to look for my .50-BMG rifle or my paraboloidal microphone. Heck,
my experience is that landlords are not busybodies the way HOA board
members are said to be.

One laziness of some municipal governments: Make HOAs responsible for
maintenance of the sewer utility (if any) and
neighborhood-level/street-level water distribution, local roads, things like
that... Make the developer build those and write deeds ordaining
existence of an HOA whose duties include in part maintaining these...
The municipal government then gets to brag about its taxes being lower...
The HOA busybodies get to hire their buddies to do the maintenance on
the roads and the under-street water lines and any sewer lines there...

Do enough homeowners that have HOAs go to their HOA meetings to hold
to the fire the feet of "that level of government"? So that, for example,
road maintenance is performed at a reasonable frequency and to a
reasonable extent by the winner of a reasonable competitive bidding
process? (Of course, I wish people also held municipal gubmint feet to
their respective fires.)

Do enough homeowners who are not "busybodies" run for election to their
HOA boards? It's hard enough to get good-honest people to run for
municipal, county and state government offices for that matter!

And as much as Americans like to bash lawyers, why do Americans vote for
so many of them for state government legislative offices and for both
houses of US Congress?

Note that fewer than half of the congresscritters are lawyers.

wrote

And as much as Americans like to bash lawyers, why do Americans vote for
so many of them for state government legislative offices and for both
houses of US Congress?

Note that fewer than half of the congresscritters are lawyers.

If there are two garter snakes and a cobra in a cage, are you saying it is
safe because less than half are poisonous? Less that half of congress
still leave about 200.

On Sun, 1 Aug 2010 14:30:32 -0400, "Ed Pawlowski" wrote:


wrote

And as much as Americans like to bash lawyers, why do Americans vote for
so many of them for state government legislative offices and for both
houses of US Congress?

Note that fewer than half of the congresscritters are lawyers.

If there are two garter snakes and a cobra in a cage, are you saying it is
safe because less than half are poisonous?

I said nothing of the kind. Over half are Demonicrats.

Less that half of congress still leave about 200.

54/100 Senators
162/441 Congressmen (including non-voting)
-------
216/541 = 40%