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OT - Decision Process: Replace Timing Belt Now or Wait?
On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 08:10:03 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote: On Jun 16, 10:17Â*am, Jules Richardson wrote: On Tue, 15 Jun 2010 17:27:32 -0700, wrote: My 1990 Dodge caraven with 3.0 engine served me well for about 450,000 miles. It was sad when I finally replaced it. My wife was just telling me yesterday how her mother used to have a Dodge Caravan until the transmission failed. She got it fixed, then it failed again. Then she replaced the whole vehicle... with another Dodge Caravan. The transmission failed up on that one, too - at which point she gave up and bought something else. cheers Jules I've had Caravans and Voyagers, 4 total, early to mid-80's vintage. They all had tranny issue's at one point or another. GENERALLY the tranny problems (in the last 15 years) can be almost eliminated if the fluid is changed often enough with the right fluid. Once every 15000 miles, or maximum 2 years, is about right. |
OT - Decision Process: Replace Timing Belt Now or Wait?
On Jun 16, 8:01*pm, wrote:
On Tue, 15 Jun 2010 20:47:35 -0700 (PDT), Ron wrote: On Jun 15, 11:29*pm, Ron wrote: On Jun 15, 11:05*pm, aemeijers wrote: Ron wrote: On Jun 15, 4:16 pm, "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote: "Ron" wrote in message ... On Jun 15, 10:59 am, "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote: Tell your friend to stop being a moron for a day and get the belt & water pump replaced. Yeah, and why he's at it, he should also get the AC compressor and the alternator replaced. (rolling eyes). ============ On what planet would the AC compressor make your **necessarily** car stop running? *The word "necessarily" eliminates mentioning the one exceptional condition under which it might happen, because that situation is avoidable by operating a switch. You obviously missed the point. No comment on the alternator? What about the power steering pump...should he get that replaced also? The whole concept of external vs. internal components hard for you to grasp? You replace water pump with the rubber band timing belt because the thing is apart anyway, and all you are paying for is the part. The stuff hung off the engine is much less labor to change, other than the evac/refill and pressure test on the A/C. Please point out to me where the OP said the car in question has a internal water pump driven by the timing belt, smartass. Not ALL cars (including the 3 that I own) have an internal water pump, Mr Know It All. BTW, a LOT of "garages" use ****ty aftermarket parts that won't last as long as the factory part anyway. Case in point.......I had the right front wheel bearing replaced on my Honda at 85,000 miles, now 10,000 miles later, it is already failing. And that was at a chain tire store. *I can almost guarantee the problem was not the quality of the replacement part but the intelligence of the trained gorilla that installed it. Chain tire stores are NOT the place to have mechanical repairs performed. It was at a Goodyear and they replace front end parts all the time. Much rather go there than to some independent mechanic...and no, I'm not gonna go to a dealership. |
OT - Decision Process: Replace Timing Belt Now or Wait?
On Jun 16, 8:07*pm, Ron wrote:
On Jun 16, 8:01*pm, wrote: On Tue, 15 Jun 2010 20:47:35 -0700 (PDT), Ron wrote: On Jun 15, 11:29*pm, Ron wrote: On Jun 15, 11:05*pm, aemeijers wrote: Ron wrote: On Jun 15, 4:16 pm, "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote: "Ron" wrote in message ... On Jun 15, 10:59 am, "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote: Tell your friend to stop being a moron for a day and get the belt & water pump replaced. Yeah, and why he's at it, he should also get the AC compressor and the alternator replaced. (rolling eyes). ============ On what planet would the AC compressor make your **necessarily** car stop running? *The word "necessarily" eliminates mentioning the one exceptional condition under which it might happen, because that situation is avoidable by operating a switch. You obviously missed the point. No comment on the alternator? What about the power steering pump...should he get that replaced also? The whole concept of external vs. internal components hard for you to grasp? You replace water pump with the rubber band timing belt because the thing is apart anyway, and all you are paying for is the part. The stuff hung off the engine is much less labor to change, other than the evac/refill and pressure test on the A/C. Please point out to me where the OP said the car in question has a internal water pump driven by the timing belt, smartass. Not ALL cars (including the 3 that I own) have an internal water pump, Mr Know It All. BTW, a LOT of "garages" use ****ty aftermarket parts that won't last as long as the factory part anyway. Case in point.......I had the right front wheel bearing replaced on my Honda at 85,000 miles, now 10,000 miles later, it is already failing. And that was at a chain tire store. *I can almost guarantee the problem was not the quality of the replacement part but the intelligence of the trained gorilla that installed it. Chain tire stores are NOT the place to have mechanical repairs performed. It was at a Goodyear and they replace front end parts all the time. Much rather go there than to some independent mechanic...and no, I'm not gonna go to a dealership. If it's anything like the Goodyear store near me, they replace front end parts all the time, whether they're needed or not. My wife and son both bought tires at the local Goodyear within a few months of each other. They were both told that the ball joints were too worn to do a front-end alignment. They were both told that they needed the right *and* left ball joints replaced before the alignment could be done. After being quoted prices in the $500 range, they both went for a second opinion - to different places. My wife ended up needing one replaced, my son didn't need either one. When they compared notes once they realized that the same thing had happened to both of them, they found that they both told the same thing, just about word for word. "On a scale of 1 to 5" was the technique that Goodyear used, and the numbers they were told matched, side for side. Coincidence? I think not. |
OT - Decision Process: Replace Timing Belt Now or Wait?
On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 17:07:42 -0700 (PDT), Ron
wrote: On Jun 16, 8:01Â*pm, wrote: On Tue, 15 Jun 2010 20:47:35 -0700 (PDT), Ron wrote: On Jun 15, 11:29Â*pm, Ron wrote: On Jun 15, 11:05Â*pm, aemeijers wrote: Ron wrote: On Jun 15, 4:16 pm, "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote: "Ron" wrote in message ... On Jun 15, 10:59 am, "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote: Tell your friend to stop being a moron for a day and get the belt & water pump replaced. Yeah, and why he's at it, he should also get the AC compressor and the alternator replaced. (rolling eyes). ============ On what planet would the AC compressor make your **necessarily** car stop running? Â*The word "necessarily" eliminates mentioning the one exceptional condition under which it might happen, because that situation is avoidable by operating a switch. You obviously missed the point. No comment on the alternator? What about the power steering pump...should he get that replaced also? The whole concept of external vs. internal components hard for you to grasp? You replace water pump with the rubber band timing belt because the thing is apart anyway, and all you are paying for is the part. The stuff hung off the engine is much less labor to change, other than the evac/refill and pressure test on the A/C. Please point out to me where the OP said the car in question has a internal water pump driven by the timing belt, smartass. Not ALL cars (including the 3 that I own) have an internal water pump, Mr Know It All. BTW, a LOT of "garages" use ****ty aftermarket parts that won't last as long as the factory part anyway. Case in point.......I had the right front wheel bearing replaced on my Honda at 85,000 miles, now 10,000 miles later, it is already failing. And that was at a chain tire store. Â*I can almost guarantee the problem was not the quality of the replacement part but the intelligence of the trained gorilla that installed it. Chain tire stores are NOT the place to have mechanical repairs performed. It was at a Goodyear and they replace front end parts all the time. Much rather go there than to some independent mechanic...and no, I'm not gonna go to a dealership. I've seen more "disasters" come out of tire shops like Goodyear/Firestone etc over the years than I care to count. And a lot more un-needed front end repairs, improper replacement of bearings etc than you would ever believe. MOST independents do better work - in many cases the tire shop "mechanics" are not qualified - just like a lube shop. |
OT - Decision Process: Replace Timing Belt Now or Wait?
DerbyDad03 wrote in
: On Jun 15, 7:38*pm, Tegger wrote: DerbyDad03 wrote in news:6739e713-05c4-463b-a348- : Thoughts? Just one. And it's a question. Well, two questions. 1) WHAT KIND OF CAR IS THIS? 2) WHAT ENGINE HAS IT GOT Not all cars are the same. Not all engines are the same. Not all years of the same car and/or engine are the same. Leave out that info and all you'll get are possibly bogus guesses; shots in the dark. 2004 Honda Odyssey 3.5L SOHC, 24-Valve, VTEC V6 engine The engine info is an educated guess since AFAIK that's the only engine the vehicle came with. Are you sure about that 90K limit? I thought that by 2004 the OEM belt was good for 105K/84mo. Having said that, Honda builds a pretty big safety margin into their OEM belts. I've seen the 90K ones go as much as 150K before breaking. If you really want to push this, you're /probably/ OK until about 120/130K. After that, it's a crapshoot, as is valve damage ($$$) when the belt does finally slip/break. So look at it this way: Say you spend $600 to get the job done /right/, which means water pump, tensioner and coolant as well as the belt, all with proper OEM parts. And you do this at 90K. Now you hang on to the car until 150K. This means your $600 is amortized over 60K miles. That's one cent per mile. Now, say you wait until 120K to get the job done, but still get rid of the car at 150K. $600 over 30K is: two cents per mile. And you're running the risk of belt slippage/breakage, and the resultant risk of valve damage. Plus the risk of being stranded at possibly a really inconvenient time. I can tell you that you will almost certainly NOT make it to 150K on the original timing belt, so you /are/ going to need to spend at /least/ $600 at some point unless you dump the vehicle at something well under 120K. So, ultimately, your question involves pennies and dimes. The Beach Boys saved their pennies and they saved their dimes for that 409, but nickels and dimes aren't worth much these days. -- Tegger |
OT - Decision Process: Replace Timing Belt Now or Wait?
"Ron" wrote It was at a Goodyear and they replace front end parts all the time. Much rather go there than to some independent mechanic...and no, I'm not gonna go to a dealership. I'd use them for an oil change, but nothing more technical than that. Many try to sell you stuff you don't need. Some are good, many are not. As for independents, you have to find a really good one. Some are great, others are thieves using wrenches instead of a gun to stick you up. If you find a good one, stick with him. Agree on the dealer. Rare I'd take a car to one aside from warranty work. Prices are usually the highest, but they usually have good mechanics if you need something that is particular to the brand you are driving. My dealer, though, does oil changes cheaper than anyone and they wash the car too. I'd never let them to the so called xxx miles service though. |
OT - Decision Process: Replace Timing Belt Now or Wait?
wrote GENERALLY the tranny problems (in the last 15 years) can be almost eliminated if the fluid is changed often enough with the right fluid. Once every 15000 miles, or maximum 2 years, is about right. Of all the cars I've owned, only one ever needed tranny work. It was the only one I ever changed the fluid in too. Never again. No way a trans should need a fluid change in 15000 miles. |
OT - Decision Process: Replace Timing Belt Now or Wait?
In article , Tegger wrote:
Say you spend $600 to get the job done /right/, which means water pump, tensioner and coolant as well as the belt, all with proper OEM parts. And you do this at 90K. Now you hang on to the car until 150K. This means your $600 is amortized over 60K miles. That's one cent per mile. Now, say you wait until 120K to get the job done, but still get rid of the car at 150K. $600 over 30K is: two cents per mile. Nonsense. You're still driving the same 60K miles between 90K and 150K, and you're still spending the same amount on the timing belt repair. The only difference is when you buy the belt. Either way, you're amortizing the same cost over the same mileage, and get the same cost per mile. |
OT - Decision Process: Replace Timing Belt Now or Wait?
On Jun 16, 10:22*pm, "Ed Pawlowski" wrote:
"Ron" wrote It was at a Goodyear and they replace front end parts all the time. Much rather go there than to some independent mechanic...and no, I'm not gonna go to a dealership. I'd use them for an oil change, but nothing more technical than that. Many try to sell you stuff you don't need. * Some are good, many are not. Those guys work on front ends/suspensions everyday. I've never had a problem with the place that I use. That is why I'm saying it was a faulty aftermarket wheel bearing and not the installer. It's a sealed bearing that has to be pressed into placed. It's not that big of a deal for someone that does it everyday. I would have replaced it myself if I had the tools. And, they ALL try to sell you stuff. They always come out with a list of things that need to be replaced. Now, since I have been working on my own cars for over 30 yrs now, I KNOW what NEEDS to be replaced and what doesn't for the most part.. It's unfortunate for those that don't know what needs to be replaced and what does and just takes their word for it. Or, for those that can't do simple replacements themselves...like fan belts, hoses, brake pads, etc. I was at a tire store just a few months ago and the guy comes out the the customer and tells her she needs new wiper blades. Don't remember what the cost was, but it was outrageous. I told the women to go to Autozone, buy the blades and they would install them free of charge. |
OT - Decision Process: Replace Timing Belt Now or Wait?
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OT - Decision Process: Replace Timing Belt Now or Wait?
On Jun 16, 10:54*pm, Smitty Two wrote:
In article , (Doug Miller) wrote: In article , Tegger wrote: Say you spend $600 to get the job done /right/, which means water pump, tensioner and coolant as well as the belt, all with proper OEM parts. And you do this at 90K. Now you hang on to the car until 150K. This means your $600 *is amortized over 60K miles. That's one cent per mile. Now, say you wait until 120K to get the job done, but still get rid of the car at 150K. $600 over 30K is: two cents per mile. Nonsense. You're still driving the same 60K miles between 90K and 150K, and you're still spending the same amount on the timing belt repair. The only difference is when you buy the belt. Either way, you're amortizing the same cost over the same mileage, and get the same cost per mile. Uh, I think that was Tegger's point, Doug. And Tegger knows his stuff, at least when it comes to Hondas. BTW, Tegger, what happened to your website that used to be in your sig? Not working on cars anymore? |
OT - Decision Process: Replace Timing Belt Now or Wait?
First, sorry I lost track of who was who and thought your post stating that you left out that info on purpose was speculation by someone else. On Jun 16, 3:41 pm, DerbyDad03 wrote: Do you not think that the mechanics (plural) who said "wait" know whether or not the "failed belt causes damage or just leaves him stranded"? I would hope they would know that. Assuming they took that into consideration and still said "wait", doesn't that bring it back to the "decision process" independent of the vehicle? I don't follow your logic at all. The vehicle IS part of the decision process. Maybe you should ask THEM why they came to the conclusion they did. If they don't say anything about what will happen to the engine if the belt fails (or say nothing will happen), continue looking until you find someone who does. Maybe they just believe that there is very little chance of it failing, which is the only way I can imagine the type of engine not figuring in. Alternatively, we still might be "failing to communicate" and by "independent of vehicle" you really do mean that you are asking for a decision process that includes a step like: "if the vehicle has an interference engine do A, otherwise do B". |
OT - Decision Process: Replace Timing Belt Now or Wait?
"DerbyDad03" wrote in message ... On Jun 16, 9:45 pm, Tegger wrote: DerbyDad03 wrote : On Jun 15, 7:38 pm, Tegger wrote: DerbyDad03 wrote in news:6739e713-05c4-463b-a348- : Thoughts? Just one. And it's a question. Well, two questions. 1) WHAT KIND OF CAR IS THIS? 2) WHAT ENGINE HAS IT GOT Not all cars are the same. Not all engines are the same. Not all years of the same car and/or engine are the same. Leave out that info and all you'll get are possibly bogus guesses; shots in the dark. 2004 Honda Odyssey 3.5L SOHC, 24-Valve, VTEC V6 engine The engine info is an educated guess since AFAIK that's the only engine the vehicle came with. Are you sure about that 90K limit? I thought that by 2004 the OEM belt was good for 105K/84mo. Having said that, Honda builds a pretty big safety margin into their OEM belts. I've seen the 90K ones go as much as 150K before breaking. If you really want to push this, you're /probably/ OK until about 120/130K. After that, it's a crapshoot, as is valve damage ($$$) when the belt does finally slip/break. So look at it this way: Say you spend $600 to get the job done /right/, which means water pump, tensioner and coolant as well as the belt, all with proper OEM parts. And you do this at 90K. Now you hang on to the car until 150K. This means your $600 is amortized over 60K miles. That's one cent per mile. Now, say you wait until 120K to get the job done, but still get rid of the car at 150K. $600 over 30K is: two cents per mile. And you're running the risk of belt slippage/breakage, and the resultant risk of valve damage. Plus the risk of being stranded at possibly a really inconvenient time. I can tell you that you will almost certainly NOT make it to 150K on the original timing belt, so you /are/ going to need to spend at /least/ $600 at some point unless you dump the vehicle at something well under 120K. So, ultimately, your question involves pennies and dimes. The Beach Boys saved their pennies and they saved their dimes for that 409, but nickels and dimes aren't worth much these days. -- Tegger Are you sure about that 90K limit? That's what the dealer told him. I don't know if he still has the manual, but I can ask. And for what's it's worth, your thoughts are the same as what I've tried to say a few times in this thread - why wait? It is an interference engine http://www.gates.com/part_locator/in...cation_id=3598 http://www.gates.com/downloads/downl...older=brochure The Gates manual says 105,000 miles. |
OT - Decision Process: Replace Timing Belt Now or Wait?
"Ed Pawlowski" wrote Are you sure about that 90K limit? That's what the dealer told him. I don't know if he still has the manual, but I can ask. And for what's it's worth, your thoughts are the same as what I've tried to say a few times in this thread - why wait? It is an interference engine http://www.gates.com/part_locator/in...cation_id=3598 http://www.gates.com/downloads/download_common.cfm?file=428-1466_web.pdf&folder=brochure The Gates manual says 105,000 miles.I noticed after posting this, the kit also comes with a water pump. Thatanswers a dispute of a couple of earlier posters about it. |
OT - Decision Process: Replace Timing Belt Now or Wait?
"Ron" wrote in message
... On Jun 16, 10:22 pm, "Ed Pawlowski" wrote: And, they ALL try to sell you stuff. ============ At least a dozen times in 20 years, my independent mechanic told me "You don't need to do (whatever). Save your money." Or "Do that yourself - it's crazy to pay me for it. Wait for spring when you can do it in your driveway." You've never gone to a good independent mechanic. |
OT - Decision Process: Replace Timing Belt Now or Wait?
Ron wrote in
: BTW, Tegger, what happened to your website that used to be in your sig? Not working on cars anymore? It's in such need of update that I didn't think it apporpriate to advertise it anymore. One day... -- Tegger |
OT - Decision Process: Replace Timing Belt Now or Wait?
DerbyDad03 wrote in
: Are you sure about that 90K limit? That's what the dealer told him. I don't know if he still has the manual, but I can ask. If he doesn't, he can join Honda's Ownerlink site: https://www.ahm-ownerlink.com/login.asp From there he can get the /official/ maintenance schedules. These would be /Honda's/ schedule, not the dealer's moneymaking attempts. And for what's it's worth, your thoughts are the same as what I've tried to say a few times in this thread - why wait? Right. If you keep the car even to 150K, you're spending money for the belt change /anyway/. So better to get it done before the probability of breakage increases. That engine is an "interference" design. This means that, should the belt slip or break, there is a chance valve(s) and pistons could collide. If that happens, you're about doubling the cost of the belt change. -- Tegger |
OT - Decision Process: Replace Timing Belt Now or Wait?
Smitty Two wrote in
: In article , (Doug Miller) wrote: In article , Tegger wrote: Say you spend $600 to get the job done /right/, which means water pump, tensioner and coolant as well as the belt, all with proper OEM parts. And you do this at 90K. Now you hang on to the car until 150K. This means your $600 is amortized over 60K miles. That's one cent per mile. Now, say you wait until 120K to get the job done, but still get rid of the car at 150K. $600 over 30K is: two cents per mile. Nonsense. You're still driving the same 60K miles between 90K and 150K, and you're still spending the same amount on the timing belt repair. The only difference is when you buy the belt. Either way, you're amortizing the same cost over the same mileage, and get the same cost per mile. Uh, I think that was Tegger's point, Doug. That was indeed my point, but I expressed it badly. To say it more clearly: If you keep the vehicle much over 110K, you've got a belt-change in there anyway, so that money /will/ get spend whether you spend it now or you spend it later. And if you spend it "later", you start to stray into belt-breakage territory, which is not wise with a Honda. -- Tegger |
OT - Decision Process: Replace Timing Belt Now or Wait?
"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in
: "Ed Pawlowski" wrote Are you sure about that 90K limit? That's what the dealer told him. I don't know if he still has the manual, but I can ask. And for what's it's worth, your thoughts are the same as what I've tried to say a few times in this thread - why wait? It is an interference engine http://www.gates.com/part_locator/in...cation_id=3598 http://www.gates.com/downloads/downl...428-1466_web.p df&folder=brochure The Gates manual says 105,000 miles.I noticed after posting this, the kit also comes with a water pump. Thatanswers a dispute of a couple of earlier posters about it. I strongly advise against using aftermarket timing belts or water pumps on any Honda or Toyota. Neither has the durability of genuine OEM. But then if all you're expecting is to get another 40-50K or so before you get rid of the car, go ahead and use aftermarket. Let the new owner deal with any early failures. -- Tegger |
OT - Decision Process: Replace Timing Belt Now or Wait?
In article , Smitty Two wrote:
In article , (Doug Miller) wrote: In article , Tegger wrote: Say you spend $600 to get the job done /right/, which means water pump, tensioner and coolant as well as the belt, all with proper OEM parts. And you do this at 90K. Now you hang on to the car until 150K. This means your $600 is amortized over 60K miles. That's one cent per mile. Now, say you wait until 120K to get the job done, but still get rid of the car at 150K. $600 over 30K is: two cents per mile. Nonsense. You're still driving the same 60K miles between 90K and 150K, and you're still spending the same amount on the timing belt repair. The only difference is when you buy the belt. Either way, you're amortizing the same cost over the same mileage, and get the same cost per mile. Uh, I think that was Tegger's point, Doug. Uh, I think not, considering that he explicitly claimed that the cost per mile to replace it later was double the the cost per mile to replace it now. What part of "one cent per mile ... two cents per mile" did you find confusing? |
OT - Decision Process: Replace Timing Belt Now or Wait?
In article , "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote:
"Ron" wrote in message ... On Jun 16, 10:22 pm, "Ed Pawlowski" wrote: And, they ALL try to sell you stuff. ============ At least a dozen times in 20 years, my independent mechanic told me "You don't need to do (whatever). Save your money." Or "Do that yourself - it's crazy to pay me for it. Wait for spring when you can do it in your driveway." You've never gone to a good independent mechanic. And not all the tire-store mechs are dishonest or incompetent, either. At my first job, my office was right across the street from a B.F.Goodrich store. Took my wife's car in there, after she'd gotten some outrageous repair estimates at the Firestone across the street from where *she* worked -- they wanted to replace almost the entire front end on her car, when the only real problem was worn-out lower ball joints. Changed out the LBJs myself, then took the car to Goodrich for an alignment. Told the guy at Goodrich what Firestone had told my wife; he said, quote, Aw, hell, there ain't nothin' wrong with none of that s**t! |
OT - Decision Process: Replace Timing Belt Now or Wait?
"Doug Miller" wrote in message
... In article , "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote: "Ron" wrote in message ... On Jun 16, 10:22 pm, "Ed Pawlowski" wrote: And, they ALL try to sell you stuff. ============ At least a dozen times in 20 years, my independent mechanic told me "You don't need to do (whatever). Save your money." Or "Do that yourself - it's crazy to pay me for it. Wait for spring when you can do it in your driveway." You've never gone to a good independent mechanic. And not all the tire-store mechs are dishonest or incompetent, either. At my first job, my office was right across the street from a B.F.Goodrich store. Took my wife's car in there, after she'd gotten some outrageous repair estimates at the Firestone across the street from where *she* worked -- they wanted to replace almost the entire front end on her car, when the only real problem was worn-out lower ball joints. Changed out the LBJs myself, then took the car to Goodrich for an alignment. Told the guy at Goodrich what Firestone had told my wife; he said, quote, Aw, hell, there ain't nothin' wrong with none of that s**t! And then there's this scheme.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIfidE7zpxU |
OT - Decision Process: Replace Timing Belt Now or Wait?
On Jun 15, 9:48*am, DerbyDad03 wrote:
This question is about the decision process involved with replacing the timing belt in a vehicle "now" or "later". Let's not confuse the issue with cost or voiding warranties, etc. Let's assume there is no warranty to deal with and that the cash is readily available, both now and later. Here's the situation a friend and I were discussing the other day: The manual - and therefore the dealer - says the timing belt on his vehicle should be replaced at 90K, which is right where he's at. He called around to various repair shops for a price and multiple places told him "I've never seen a timing belt go on that vehicle before 110K. The dealers just want their money early. There's no need to replace it at 90K." He was even able to "verify" that opinion on the web. OK, so let's say that you are planning to keep the vehicle for the foreseeable future, probably well beyond 110K. That means that you will need to replace the timing belt, probably in about a year, to be safe. So here's what I was thinking: There's a pretty slim chance that you'll keep the vehicle for the full life of the second timing belt. That would put you in the 220K range. Even if you replaced it at 90K and it really will last 110K, that's still pushing 200K. Why would you wait until next year and not replace it at 90K? Even at the dealer's "accelerated" schedule, you're good until 180K, by which time you'll probably have gotten rid of the car, so why not be *extra* cautious and replace it now? Thoughts? I've made this decision with just about every possible conclusion, drive most of my cars ~150K miles, and I think it all depends on your tolerance for risk, whether you can get by without your car, and whether the car gets driven anywhere or by anyone that would make being stranded a major issue. High tolerance for risk, can get by without car, stranding not a problem = Never replace it. If it goes (many never do), deal with inconvenience, expense and/or stranding at that time (factor in whether you would keep the car if it sucked a valve and whether your model would). High tolerance for risk, can get by for a little while, stranding not too significant a problem = Push the schedule. Low tolerance, need car reliably, and/or stranding a major issue = Do it according to schedule. My results: 33 cars so far (took me awhile to count!), several "true American" makes, two German, two Japanese (American made), several so- called American made multinationally. Mostly bought used, four purchased new. 1 German, bought used, had valve/piston collision when the belt went at less than 100,000 miles. Sold the car as-is. 1 American, bought new, dumped me WAY out in the country, but no collateral damage. Less than 100K miles. Fixed. 1 Japanese replaced according to schedule, no further issues. Balance = Belt/chain never broke while I owned the car. Of the balance, all but three were driven more than 100,000, most approached 150,000, three were driven more than 200,000 miles but not by much, one was driven almost 300,000 miles. At least six of these were from an era when a timing chain would most likely have been used, so possibly they should be removed from the equation (such as it is). |
OT - Decision Process: Replace Timing Belt Now or Wait?
On Jun 17, 3:23*am, Larry Fishel wrote:
First, sorry I lost track of who was who and thought your post stating that you left out that info on purpose was speculation by someone else. On Jun 16, 3:41 pm, DerbyDad03 wrote: Do you not think that the mechanics (plural) who said "wait" know whether or not the "failed belt causes damage or just leaves him stranded"? I would hope they would know that. Assuming they took that into consideration and still said "wait", doesn't that bring it back to the "decision process" independent of the vehicle? I don't follow your logic at all. The vehicle IS part of the decision process. Maybe you should ask THEM why they came to the conclusion they did. If they don't say anything about what will happen to the engine if the belt fails (or say nothing will happen), continue looking until you find someone who does. Maybe they just believe that there is very little chance of it failing, which is the only way I can imagine the type of engine not figuring in. Alternatively, we still might be "failing to communicate" and by "independent of vehicle" you really do mean that you are asking for a decision process that includes a step like: "if the vehicle has an interference engine do A, otherwise do B". "I don't follow your logic at all." Completely understandable! I'll try to explain what I meant. I was trying to say that the mechanics did take the vehicle type into consideration and came to the conclusion that it's OK to wait, based strictly on how long they've seen the belts last. But from the consumer's standpoint, I don't think waiting to replace a belt at 110K if you aren't planning on keeping the vehicle to 220K makes sense. If the odds are that you'll get rid of vehicle somewhere between 110K and 180K, you'll need a belt anyway, so why put yourself at risk? And I mean any level of risk, stranded or destroyed engine. There's no need for it. In that respect, I don't think "interference" enters into the decision, since, even if you believe the mechanic's time frame, you'd never enter the "danger zone" any way because you'd change the belt before 100K anyway. I'm not sure if that makes any more sense, but I tried! |
OT - Decision Process: Replace Timing Belt Now or Wait?
On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 22:22:59 -0400, "Ed Pawlowski"
wrote: "Ron" wrote It was at a Goodyear and they replace front end parts all the time. Much rather go there than to some independent mechanic...and no, I'm not gonna go to a dealership. I'd use them for an oil change, but nothing more technical than that. Many try to sell you stuff you don't need. Some are good, many are not. After they have cross-threaded the filter, stripped the drain plug, blown the crap out of the ball-joint seals with the pressure grease gun, rounded off the corners of the differential drainplug, drained the transaxle instead of the engine oil-pan and overfilled the engine by 4 quarts because of it (and left the transaxle empty), put power steering fluid in the coolant overflow, or antifreeze in the power steering (or both), you won't use the trained monkeys even for your next oil change. I've seen all of the above, and a whole lot more!!!! As for independents, you have to find a really good one. Some are great, others are thieves using wrenches instead of a gun to stick you up. If you find a good one, stick with him. Agree on the dealer. Rare I'd take a car to one aside from warranty work. Prices are usually the highest, but they usually have good mechanics if you need something that is particular to the brand you are driving. My dealer, though, does oil changes cheaper than anyone and they wash the car too. I'd never let them to the so called xxx miles service though. When I was service manager at the Toyota dealership in a former life, there were not many independents - and precious few chain shops that could service your Toyota for much less than our shop would do it - and we had all the right parts in stock, all the latest specifications and service bulletins, and the factory manuals and training to boot. There was a reason we had a retention rate of over 100% - meaning we serviced MORE cars than we sold, based on 3 year numbers. |
OT - Decision Process: Replace Timing Belt Now or Wait?
In article ,
(Doug Miller) wrote: In article , Smitty Two wrote: In article , (Doug Miller) wrote: In article , Tegger wrote: Say you spend $600 to get the job done /right/, which means water pump, tensioner and coolant as well as the belt, all with proper OEM parts. And you do this at 90K. Now you hang on to the car until 150K. This means your $600 is amortized over 60K miles. That's one cent per mile. Now, say you wait until 120K to get the job done, but still get rid of the car at 150K. $600 over 30K is: two cents per mile. Nonsense. You're still driving the same 60K miles between 90K and 150K, and you're still spending the same amount on the timing belt repair. The only difference is when you buy the belt. Either way, you're amortizing the same cost over the same mileage, and get the same cost per mile. Uh, I think that was Tegger's point, Doug. Uh, I think not, considering that he explicitly claimed that the cost per mile to replace it later was double the the cost per mile to replace it now. What part of "one cent per mile ... two cents per mile" did you find confusing? I found no part of it confusing. But then, I read it in context: Premise: You'll save money by waiting. Tegger's argument AIUI: No, you won't. You'll spend $600 to either: 1. Do the job now, and pay an amortized cost of .01 per mile for 60,000 miles. OR 2. Wait, and pay an amortized cost of .02 per mile for 30,000 miles. THERFORE, waiting doesn't save you a damn thing, and increases the chance that the belt will fail while in service. |
OT - Decision Process: Replace Timing Belt Now or Wait?
On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 22:26:05 -0400, "Ed Pawlowski"
wrote: wrote GENERALLY the tranny problems (in the last 15 years) can be almost eliminated if the fluid is changed often enough with the right fluid. Once every 15000 miles, or maximum 2 years, is about right. Of all the cars I've owned, only one ever needed tranny work. It was the only one I ever changed the fluid in too. Never again. No way a trans should need a fluid change in 15000 miles. If you are driving a Chrysler and you doi NOT change the fluid, it's your funeral. Leaving the old fluid until you have a problem GUARANTEES it will fail just after you change the fluid - as does using the wrong fluid. 250,000 miles on a Chrysler automatic is NOT out of reach, or even out of the ordinary, if it is "properly" serviced. |
OT - Decision Process: Replace Timing Belt Now or Wait?
On Thu, 17 Jun 2010 12:32:33 +0000 (UTC), Tegger
wrote: DerbyDad03 wrote in : Are you sure about that 90K limit? That's what the dealer told him. I don't know if he still has the manual, but I can ask. If he doesn't, he can join Honda's Ownerlink site: https://www.ahm-ownerlink.com/login.asp From there he can get the /official/ maintenance schedules. These would be /Honda's/ schedule, not the dealer's moneymaking attempts. And for what's it's worth, your thoughts are the same as what I've tried to say a few times in this thread - why wait? Right. If you keep the car even to 150K, you're spending money for the belt change /anyway/. So better to get it done before the probability of breakage increases. That engine is an "interference" design. This means that, should the belt slip or break, there is a chance valve(s) and pistons could collide. If that happens, you're about doubling the cost of the belt change. Double won't even come CLOSE. Much more like 5 times. |
OT - Decision Process: Replace Timing Belt Now or Wait?
On Thu, 17 Jun 2010 12:37:18 +0000 (UTC), Tegger
wrote: "Ed Pawlowski" wrote in : "Ed Pawlowski" wrote Are you sure about that 90K limit? That's what the dealer told him. I don't know if he still has the manual, but I can ask. And for what's it's worth, your thoughts are the same as what I've tried to say a few times in this thread - why wait? It is an interference engine http://www.gates.com/part_locator/in...cation_id=3598 http://www.gates.com/downloads/downl...428-1466_web.p df&folder=brochure The Gates manual says 105,000 miles.I noticed after posting this, the kit also comes with a water pump. Thatanswers a dispute of a couple of earlier posters about it. I strongly advise against using aftermarket timing belts or water pumps on any Honda or Toyota. Neither has the durability of genuine OEM. But then if all you're expecting is to get another 40-50K or so before you get rid of the car, go ahead and use aftermarket. Let the new owner deal with any early failures. I'd dissagree. High end aftermarket is as good as, or better than OEM in MANY cases. Just don't buy the aftermarket stuff based on price. "If you want first quality oats, you need to be willing to pay first quality price. If you are willing to settle for oats that have already been through the horse, they DO come a bit cheaper" |
OT - Decision Process: Replace Timing Belt Now or Wait?
In article , Smitty Two wrote:
In article , (Doug Miller) wrote: In article , Smitty Two wrote: In article , (Doug Miller) wrote: In article , Tegger wrote: Say you spend $600 to get the job done /right/, which means water pump, tensioner and coolant as well as the belt, all with proper OEM parts. And you do this at 90K. Now you hang on to the car until 150K. This means your $600 is amortized over 60K miles. That's one cent per mile. Now, say you wait until 120K to get the job done, but still get rid of the car at 150K. $600 over 30K is: two cents per mile. Nonsense. You're still driving the same 60K miles between 90K and 150K, and you're still spending the same amount on the timing belt repair. The only difference is when you buy the belt. Either way, you're amortizing the same cost over the same mileage, and get the same cost per mile. Uh, I think that was Tegger's point, Doug. Uh, I think not, considering that he explicitly claimed that the cost per mile to replace it later was double the the cost per mile to replace it now. What part of "one cent per mile ... two cents per mile" did you find confusing? I found no part of it confusing. But then, I read it in context: Premise: You'll save money by waiting. Tegger's argument AIUI: No, you won't. I understand that. And that's true: you won't save money by waiting. You'll spend $600 to either: 1. Do the job now, and pay an amortized cost of .01 per mile for 60,000 miles. OR 2. Wait, and pay an amortized cost of .02 per mile for 30,000 miles. You and he both fail to understand that *that* is false: the amortized cost is the same, because the car is driven 60K miles and thus the cost is amortized over 60K miles, regardless of when the belt is purchased. THERFORE, waiting doesn't save you a damn thing, and increases the chance that the belt will fail while in service. And that's true. |
OT - Decision Process: Replace Timing Belt Now or Wait?
On Jun 17, 7:28*am, "JoeSpareBedroom"
wrote: "Ron" wrote in message ... On Jun 16, 10:22 pm, "Ed Pawlowski" wrote: And, they ALL try to sell you stuff. ============ At least a dozen times in 20 years, my independent mechanic told me "You don't need to do (whatever). Save your money." Or "Do that yourself - it's crazy to pay me for it. Wait for spring when you can do it in your driveway." You've never gone to a good independent mechanic. Really Kreskin? We were talking about tire stores not independent mechanics. |
OT - Decision Process: Replace Timing Belt Now or Wait?
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OT - Decision Process: Replace Timing Belt Now or Wait?
On Jun 17, 2:24*pm, Smitty Two wrote:
In article , (Doug Miller) wrote: You and he both fail to understand that *that* is false: the amortized cost is the same, because the car is driven 60K miles and thus the cost is amortized over 60K miles, regardless of when the belt is purchased. Argghhh. We all agree on what matters, it's just a semantics disagreement. I'm sorry, but I won't concede my position on that. You're only USING the new belt for 30,000 miles, so you can only amortize its cost over 30,000 miles. If you change the belt at 120k and sell the car at 150k, you paid .02 per mile for the use of the belt. IOW, I perfectly well understand your logic, but I absolutely disagree with it. When should I admit that a small part of my reason for posting this question was to see what kind of discussion it would produce? 120+ posts, and most of them pretty much on topic. Not bad! |
OT - Decision Process: Replace Timing Belt Now or Wait?
On Thu, 17 Jun 2010 13:49:40 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote: In article , "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote: "Ron" wrote in message ... On Jun 16, 10:22 pm, "Ed Pawlowski" wrote: And, they ALL try to sell you stuff. ============ At least a dozen times in 20 years, my independent mechanic told me "You don't need to do (whatever). Save your money." Or "Do that yourself - it's crazy to pay me for it. Wait for spring when you can do it in your driveway." You've never gone to a good independent mechanic. And not all the tire-store mechs are dishonest or incompetent, either. At my first job, my office was right across the street from a B.F.Goodrich store. Took my wife's car in there, after she'd gotten some outrageous repair estimates at the Firestone across the street from where *she* worked -- they wanted to replace almost the entire front end on her car, when the only real problem was worn-out lower ball joints. Changed out the LBJs myself, then took the car to Goodrich for an alignment. Told the guy at Goodrich what Firestone had told my wife; he said, quote, Aw, hell, there ain't nothin' wrong with none of that s**t! I left my car at the local Goodyear dealer and told him that 4 of the tires might need to be replaced. He called me on my cell phone and said only one of them needed it. -- Mark Lloyd http://notstupid.us "If a man would follow, today, the teachings of the Old Testament, he would be a criminal. If he would follow strictly the teachings of the New, he would be insane." -- Robert G. Ingersoll |
OT - Decision Process: Replace Timing Belt Now or Wait?
On Jun 17, 1:34*pm, wrote:
On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 22:26:05 -0400, "Ed Pawlowski" wrote: wrote GENERALLY the tranny problems (in the last 15 years) can be almost eliminated if the fluid is changed often enough with the right fluid. Once every 15000 miles, or maximum 2 years, is about right. Of all the cars I've owned, only one ever needed tranny work. *It was the only one I ever changed the fluid in too. *Never again. *No way a trans should need a fluid change in 15000 miles. If you are driving a Chrysler and you doi NOT change the fluid, it's your funeral. Leaving the old fluid until you have a problem GUARANTEES it will fail just after you change the fluid - as does using the wrong fluid. 250,000 miles on a Chrysler automatic is NOT out of reach, or even out of the ordinary, if it is "properly" serviced. On most Chrysler trannies, from what I hear, "properly serviced" means servicing far more often than even the "severe service" schedule published in the official documentation, however. (talking about FWD here, not the old, better-built 727/904 etc.) nate |
OT - Decision Process: Replace Timing Belt Now or Wait?
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OT - Decision Process: Replace Timing Belt Now or Wait?
On Jun 17, 2:35*pm, Mark Lloyd wrote:
On Thu, 17 Jun 2010 13:49:40 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote: In article , "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote: "Ron" wrote in message .... On Jun 16, 10:22 pm, "Ed Pawlowski" wrote: And, they ALL try to sell you stuff. ============ At least a dozen times in 20 years, my independent mechanic told me "You don't need to do (whatever). Save your money." Or "Do that yourself - it's crazy to pay me for it. Wait for spring when you can do it in your driveway." You've never gone to a good independent mechanic. And not all the tire-store mechs are dishonest or incompetent, either. At my first job, my office was right across the street from a B.F.Goodrich store. Took my wife's car in there, after she'd gotten some outrageous repair estimates at the Firestone across the street from where *she* worked -- they wanted to replace almost the entire front end on her car, when the only real problem was worn-out lower ball joints. Changed out the LBJs myself, then took the car to Goodrich for an alignment. Told the guy at Goodrich what Firestone had told my wife; he said, quote, Aw, hell, there ain't nothin' wrong with none of that s**t! I left my car at the local Goodyear dealer and told him that 4 of the tires might need to be replaced. He called me on my cell phone and said only one of them needed it. -- Mark Lloydhttp://notstupid.us "If a man would follow, today, the teachings of the Old Testament, he would be a criminal. If he would follow strictly the teachings of the New, he would be insane." -- Robert G. Ingersoll- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - "...told him that 4 of the tires might need to be replaced." How many tires did that car have? |
OT - Decision Process: Replace Timing Belt Now or Wait?
On 06/17/10 08:37 am, Tegger wrote:
I strongly advise against using aftermarket timing belts or water pumps on any Honda or Toyota. Neither has the durability of genuine OEM. And I have read reports that the Gates timing belt sold for the Chrysler 300M doesn't always even fit correctly. Perce |
OT - Decision Process: Replace Timing Belt Now or Wait?
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