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How to biuld a home CO2 carbonation system (the nozzle part)
I've built a home CO2 carbonation system but I have a question about carbon
dioxide flow (see pictures below). http://yfrog.com/13homec02system5jx Using a tire valve and a tire chuck, I can easily fill the soda bottle empty space with 50 psi of carbon dioxide, but that only gets the water slightly bubbly. The build-it-yourself tutorials on the web say the carbon dioxide must be FLOWING and they say they remove the inside part of the automotive tire valve. I have tried both ways and have two subsequent questions: If I keep the tire valve stem (i.e., the white soda top in the photo): Q: Why doesn't the cold water get more bubbly (like soda) at 50psi? If I remove the tire valve stem (i.e., the red soda top in the photo): Q: How do I get the tire chuck to work since it won't flow w/o the stem? Q: Even if I attach the hollow tire valve directly to the CO2 hose, how can more than the headspace of the bottle FLOW into the bottle? I don't get how I can get the CO2 to "flow"; seems to me it would just be static and fill the headspace. What am I doing wrong? See pictures he http://yfrog.com/13homec02system5jx |
How to build a home CO2 carbonation system (the nozzle part) (was: How to biuld a home CO2 carbonation system (the nozzle part))
I've built a home CO2 carbonation system but I have a question about carbon
dioxide flow (see pictures below). Q: How do I get the tire chuck to work since it won't flow w/o the stem? Q: Even if I attach the hollow tire valve directly to the CO2 hose, how can more than the headspace of the bottle FLOW into the bottle? I forgot to list the URL which said the C02 has to flow: "Carbonating at Home with Improvised Equipment and Soda Fountains" (http://www.truetex.com/carbonation.htm) If I leave the inside of the tire valve in (see white cap in the pictures at http://yfrog.com/13homec02system5jx), the CO2 carbonization does not get to the 50psi you'd like that is in the bottle headspace; but at least the tire valve attached to the hose is operated by the center stem in the tire valve attached to the soda bottle cap. Yet, if I remove the center stem from the tire valve (see the red cap in the pictures at http://yfrog.com/13homec02system5jx), I can't get the air chuck to operate (since it depends on the center valve to open up). I'm thinking of just attaching the red cap open tire valve stem directly to the carbonization hose but even then, I can't, for the life of me, understand the article's wording that says the CO2 needs to "flow". (Specifically it says leaving the valve stem on the valve "does not work because the process requires a continuous flow of CO2 into the bottle via an open connection".) What I don't understand is where is the continuous flow into an "open connection"? If I clamp the red bottle cap onto the yellow hose (thereby eliminating the air chuck), it's still a closed system, isn't it? Where does the "flow" of C02 occur (except momentarily until the headspace of the bottle is filled to 50psi or so)? I'm sure I'm missing something simple ... I just do not understand what I'm missing and I'm hoping someone can point me in the right direction. |
How to build a home CO2 carbonation system (the nozzle part)
On Sun, 4 Apr 2010 01:02:24 +0000 (UTC), Elmo wrote:
I'm sure I'm missing something simple ... Indeed! Like posting in an electronics newsgroup instead of a pneumatics newsgroup. |
How to build a home CO2 carbonation system (the nozzle part)
Allodoxaphobia wrote:
On Sun, 4 Apr 2010 01:02:24 +0000 (UTC), Elmo wrote: I'm sure I'm missing something simple ... Indeed! Like posting in an electronics newsgroup instead of a pneumatics newsgroup. Are you suggesting there will be a shortage of hot air? |
How to build a home CO2 carbonation system (the nozzle part) (was: How to biuld a home CO2 carbonation system (the nozzle part))
On Sun, 4 Apr 2010 01:02:24 +0000 (UTC), Elmo
wrote: I forgot to list the URL which said the C02 has to flow: "Carbonating at Home with Improvised Equipment and Soda Fountains" (http://www.truetex.com/carbonation.htm) I built a carbonator once and made several huge mistakes, some of which I see in the article. One mistake resulted in 2 liters of sticky sugar water sprayed all over the kitchen. The carbonation bottle, as shown, is upside down. You need to bubble the CO2 gas THROUGH the liquid, not on top of it. A seltzer bottle does with with a "siphon tube". That will work allowing right side up carbonation. http://www.seltzersisters.com/graphics/bottles/plastic.jpg You need a way to bleed off the pressure after carbonating the liquid or you will have the equivalent of a bottle rocket. The shutoff valve shown is only part of the puzzle. There needs to be a bleeder valve between the valve and the seltzer bottle. With a siphon tube, you'll need to make sure that you don't suck liquid back into the regulator. Think about a ball-spring type of one-way valve in the filler hose, near the bottle end. The tire valve stem and air chuck are a lousy idea but do solve an important problem. You need to maintain pressure in the bottle after removing the filler hose. Lots of ways to do that, but the bicycle valve is probably the least effective. Like a selzer bottle, you need seperate paths to fill the bottle and to empty the bottle. If vent the bottle (especially when warm) the gas will simply come out of solution into the air, leaving you with a flat tasting drink. Chill or cool the liquid BEFORE filling. It will hold more CO2 and taste better. 50 PSI is the recommended maximum pressure for the average bottle rocket. Some maniacs have gone to 100 PSI and up by reinforcing the bottle with duct tape, but methinks 50 PSI is a good safe limit. If you want more pressure, get a heavy wall glass bottle (i.e. seltzer bottle) or aluminum container: http://www.amazon.com/b?ie=UTF8&node=49572011 Note that the tiny CO2 cartridges used in commercial siphon bottle chargers are filled to about 850 PSI. Commercial bottled seltzer water is delivered at 135 PSI. Gourmet Syrup http://www.1883.com -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
How to build a home CO2 carbonation system (the nozzle part)
On Sat, 03 Apr 2010 21:22:39 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
I built a carbonator once and made several huge mistakes, some of which I see in the article. The carbonation bottle, as shown, is upside down. Hi Jeff, I solved the problem after reading your response! I thank you for taking your time to help others. I like the upside-down idea and I understand your points about the internal pressure and the need to bleed it off separately - but I wanted to make the right-side-up idea work first. The original article said, I had to bubble 4 volumes of carbon dioxide into the bottle so I had to figure out how to bubble 4 liters of co2 into a 1 liter bottle. It worked when I removed the stem of the tire valve (pictures here): http://yfrog.com/13updatehomeco2carbonatiojx My problem was there is no measurable laminar gas "flow" in either system (1) tire valve with stem, or (2) tire valve w/o stem. But, without the stem, the c02 molecules continue to "infuse" into the liquid until there are 4 liters of c02 in the 1 liter of liquid. So, I think the word "infuse" would have been better than "flow". Now I have really good tasting seltzer water, grape juice soda, orange juice soda, etc. Thanks all! |
How to build a home CO2 carbonation system (the nozzle part)
On Sat, 03 Apr 2010 22:02:19 -0500, Dean Hoffman wrote:
Like posting in an electronics newsgroup instead of a pneumatics newsgroup. Are you suggesting there will be a shortage of hot air? Since google sucks at newsgroup searches, I searched both Newsparrot and Giganews to find a pneumatics newsgroup. I didn't find any. |
How to build a home CO2 carbonation system (the nozzle part)
On Sat, 03 Apr 2010 21:22:39 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
Some maniacs have gone to 100 PSI and up by reinforcing the bottle with duct tape, but methinks 50 PSI is a good safe limit. The article suggested 150psi (and says 100psi is generated internally if you drop any common soda bottle); so, as an experiment, I donned welders garb (helmet, bib, and heavy gloves) and pressurized the 1 liter seltzer bottle filled with orange juice to 150psi ... and ... nothing happened. Well, the orange juice was really fizzy when I removed the pressure and removed the cap; but what I mean is the bottle held 150 psi with aplomb! I was too scared to go higher than 150 psi though (I had ammo of 800 psi of c02 available). I remember reading somewhere they test automotive tires by filling them to 200 psi of water to see if they'll blow (the water apparently lessens the danger). Anyway, it's amazing how well engineered a 10 cent throw-away soda bottle is! |
How to build a home CO2 carbonation system (the nozzle part)
On Apr 4, 9:41*am, Elmo dcdraftwo...@Use-Author-Supplied-
Address.invalid wrote: On Sat, 03 Apr 2010 21:22:39 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote: Some maniacs have gone to 100 PSI and up by reinforcing the bottle with duct tape, but methinks 50 PSI is a good safe limit. (snip) I remember reading somewhere they test automotive tires by filling them to 200 psi of water to see if they'll blow (the water apparently lessens the danger). (snip) Yes, there's no danger because, being incompressible, it does not store energy like a pressurized gas. The only stored energy with water pressurization is strain energy in the vessel, usually quite small. If the vessel ruptures the pressure instantly goes to zero and the water just runs out. Cheers, Roger |
How to build a home CO2 carbonation system (the nozzle part)
On Sun, 4 Apr 2010 13:33:46 +0000 (UTC), Elmo
wrote: It worked when I removed the stem of the tire valve (pictures here): http://yfrog.com/13updatehomeco2carbonatiojx Ok, that's fine. Now, clean up the rest of the mess. The natural rubber hose is not suitable for dealing with freezing liquids. Put a piece in the fridge and watch it get stiff and brittle. I suggest you use clear vinyl or PVC "food grade" hoses, and nylon fittings. My problem was there is no measurable laminar gas "flow" in either system (1) tire valve with stem, or (2) tire valve w/o stem. But, without the stem, the c02 molecules continue to "infuse" into the liquid until there are 4 liters of c02 in the 1 liter of liquid. You can measure the amount of dissolved CO2 with a pH meter or pH testing paper: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbonic_acid See chart on acidity. So, I think the word "infuse" would have been better than "flow". Why so complexicated? Infusion is more like a slow leak into the liquid. What you're really complaining about it is that it takes some time for the gas to dissolve in the liquid. It doesn't happen instantly. Patience. You can speed things up by increasing the surface area of the gas bubbles, using smaller bubbles or a manifold like contraption with more holes. Even so, it does take a while for the gas to dissolve. Now I have really good tasting seltzer water, grape juice soda, orange juice soda, etc. Light reading: http://www.ehow.com/carbonated-water/ Have fun... (burp, belch, hiccup). -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
How to build a home CO2 carbonation system (the nozzle part)
On Sun, 04 Apr 2010 10:24:07 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
Path: aioe.org!news.glorb.com!news2.glorb.com!news.glorb .com!Xl.tags.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganew s.com!nntp.giganews.com!local2.nntp.dca.giganews.c om!nntp.supernews.com!news.supernews.com.POSTED!no t-for-mail NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 04 Apr 2010 12:24:08 -0500 From: Jeff Liebermann Newsgroups: alt.home.repair,sci.electronics.repair,sci.chemist ry Subject: How to build a home CO2 carbonation system (the nozzle part) Date: Sun, 04 Apr 2010 10:24:07 -0700 Message-ID: References: X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 5.00/32.1171 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 45 X-Trace: sv3-4Q780i5D1fd5PaW64j0ms/znH8u0w1sg/gANZcazQeiM1N7ypY6jw4BSXzG5T4stZ4IQUqf8RSaH1ZT!5qg FyMzZdPi/V/qy2mzUM8SQJlItPJbzv8Pj6d9pWNtJwJ97YzJStPw2+MUqkYiY 8ZMCpyIrPyUM!8HZKjQ== X-Complaints-To: www.supernews.com/docs/abuse.html X-DMCA-Complaints-To: www.supernews.com/docs/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.40 Xref: aioe.org alt.home.repair:90002 sci.electronics.repair:20738 sci.chemistry:4 On Sun, 4 Apr 2010 13:33:46 +0000 (UTC), Elmo wrote: It worked when I removed the stem of the tire valve (pictures here): http://yfrog.com/13updatehomeco2carbonatiojx http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbonic_acid http://www.ehow.com/carbonated-water/ Have fun... (burp, belch, hiccup). Hi Jeff, Thanks for your help! I love the idea of testing the amount of dissolved C02! I'm burping away as I read the referenced articles! |
How to build a home CO2 carbonation system (the nozzle part)
On Sun, 4 Apr 2010 13:41:07 +0000 (UTC), Elmo wrote:
The article suggested 150psi (and says 100psi is generated internally if you drop any common soda bottle); so, as an experiment, I donned welders garb (helmet, bib, and heavy gloves) and pressurized the 1 liter seltzer bottle filled with orange juice to 150psi ... and ... nothing happened. Correction! The article suggested 50psi! (not 150psi). http://www.truetex.com/carbonation.htm |
How to build a home CO2 carbonation system (the nozzle part)
On Sun, 4 Apr 2010 08:34:32 -0700 (PDT), Engineer wrote:
Path: aioe.org!news.glorb.com!news2.glorb.com!postnews.g oogle.com!z3g2000yqz.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail From: Engineer Newsgroups: alt.home.repair,sci.electronics.repair Subject: How to build a home CO2 carbonation system (the nozzle part) Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2010 08:34:32 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 174.112.36.42 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: posting.google.com 1270395272 4072 127.0.0.1 (4 Apr 2010 15:34:32 GMT) X-Complaints-To: NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2010 15:34:32 +0000 (UTC) Complaints-To: Injection-Info: z3g2000yqz.googlegroups.com; posting-host=174.112.36.42; posting-account=7eatwQoAAAA7jEgZiH-tBO0RJMP2eeGB User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9.2.3) Gecko/20100401 Firefox/3.6.3 (.NET CLR 3.5.30729),gzip(gfe) Xref: aioe.org alt.home.repair:89991 sci.electronics.repair:20732 On Apr 4, 9:41=A0am, Elmo dcdraftwo...@Use-Author-Supplied- Address.invalid wrote: On Sat, 03 Apr 2010 21:22:39 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote: Some maniacs have gone to 100 PSI and up by reinforcing the bottle with duct tape, but methinks 50 PSI is a good safe limit. (snip) I remember reading somewhere they test automotive tires by filling them t= o 200 psi of water to see if they'll blow (the water apparently lessens the danger). (snip) Yes, there's no danger because, being incompressible, it does not store energy like a pressurized gas. The only stored energy with water pressurization is strain energy in the vessel, usually quite small. If the vessel ruptures the pressure instantly goes to zero and the water just runs out. Cheers, Roger Does that mean that, if I fill the juice bottle with juice, and then pressurize the head space to, say 200 psi (or whatever it takes to burst the bottle or cap), that the danger is less (than if I filled it purely with gas)? The hose is beverage hose so it seems to take 150psi without problems. The bottle seems to take 150psi without problems and the tire valve doesn't seem to leak from the top so I wonder what happens if I fill it to bursting. What can we predict will happen if I have, say, an inch or two of headspace and I pressurize the bottle to bursting (either glass or plastic)? I suspect the glass would be too dangerous to even try (although glass would hold up to higher pressure ... maybe even the 800 psi of the carbon dioxide tank???). I suspect the bottle top will blow off the threads before the bottle explodes or before the hose expands. The top has a brass tire valve in it so obviously you'd want it to be aimed the other way from your face. Unanswered questions: Do you think the bottle will blow first or the cap off the threads? Do you think glass will withstand the entire 800 psi of the C02 tank? |
How to build a home CO2 carbonation system (the nozzle part)
On Sun, 04 Apr 2010 10:24:07 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote: Infusion is more like a slow leak into the liquid. What you're really complaining about it is that it takes some time for the gas to dissolve in the liquid. It doesn't happen instantly. Patience. You can speed things up by increasing the surface area of the gas bubbles, using smaller bubbles or a manifold like contraption with more holes. Even so, it does take a while for the gas to dissolve. I just re-read the original article and noticed that the author recommends agitation under pressure to help with dissolution. That strikes me as a bit dangerous as aggitation is a great way to trigger a rupture, but will help disolved the gas. Hmmm.... maybe a paint shaker? -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
How to biuld a home CO2 carbonation system (the nozzle part)
Elmo wrote:
I've built a home CO2 carbonation system but I have a question about carbon dioxide flow (see pictures below). http://yfrog.com/13homec02system5jx Using a tire valve and a tire chuck, I can easily fill the soda bottle empty space with 50 psi of carbon dioxide, but that only gets the water slightly bubbly. The build-it-yourself tutorials on the web say the carbon dioxide must be FLOWING and they say they remove the inside part of the automotive tire valve. I have tried both ways and have two subsequent questions: If I keep the tire valve stem (i.e., the white soda top in the photo): Q: Why doesn't the cold water get more bubbly (like soda) at 50psi? If I remove the tire valve stem (i.e., the red soda top in the photo): Q: How do I get the tire chuck to work since it won't flow w/o the stem? Q: Even if I attach the hollow tire valve directly to the CO2 hose, how can more than the headspace of the bottle FLOW into the bottle? I don't get how I can get the CO2 to "flow"; seems to me it would just be static and fill the headspace. What am I doing wrong? See pictures he http://yfrog.com/13homec02system5jx Just keep adding CO2 every several hours until you reach the desired carbonation level. After you pressurize the airspace, the CO2 will be gradually absorbed into the water, and the pressure in the airspace will drop until it reaches equilibrium. Or, you can attach the CO2, and shake the bottle to speed the absorbtion. Beginning with the water very cold will speed the process. As you shake the bottle, the CO2 quickly disolves into the water, and you will likely hear the CO2 flow out of the regulator as you do. Do this for a bit, then turn off the CO2 (leaving it attached) and continue shaking until the pressure at the guage quits going down. The guage will then show approximately the equilibrium pressure at the current temperature of the water in the bottle. You can repeat this until you reach the desired carbonation. |
How to build a home CO2 carbonation system (the nozzle part)
Jeff Liebermann wrote:
I just re-read the original article and noticed that the author recommends agitation under pressure to help with dissolution. That strikes me as a bit dangerous as aggitation is a great way to trigger a rupture, but will help disolved the gas. Hmmm.... maybe a paint shaker? It's beginning to sound as dangerous as the new "Shake and Bake" method for making Meth in 2 liter bottled. Jeff -- “Egotism is the anesthetic that dulls the pain of stupidity.” Frank Leahy, Head coach, Notre Dame 1941-1954 http://www.stay-connect.com |
How to biuld a home CO2 carbonation system (the nozzle part)
Elmo wrote:
I've built a home CO2 carbonation system but I have a question about carbon dioxide flow (see pictures below). http://yfrog.com/13homec02system5jx Using a tire valve and a tire chuck, I can easily fill the soda bottle empty space with 50 psi of carbon dioxide, but that only gets the water slightly bubbly. The build-it-yourself tutorials on the web say the carbon dioxide must be FLOWING and they say they remove the inside part of the automotive tire valve. I have tried both ways and have two subsequent questions: If I keep the tire valve stem (i.e., the white soda top in the photo): Q: Why doesn't the cold water get more bubbly (like soda) at 50psi? If I remove the tire valve stem (i.e., the red soda top in the photo): Q: How do I get the tire chuck to work since it won't flow w/o the stem? Q: Even if I attach the hollow tire valve directly to the CO2 hose, how can more than the headspace of the bottle FLOW into the bottle? I don't get how I can get the CO2 to "flow"; seems to me it would just be static and fill the headspace. What am I doing wrong? See pictures he http://yfrog.com/13homec02system5jx Use cold water. Squeeze the bottle to force the air out before putting on the cap. Shake the bottle while the tire chuck is attached and the CO2 will flow as the pressure drops (will drop because the CO2 is being dissolved.) Then let it rest a minute before you open it. I think I usually set the gauge at about 60 pounds. You can even overcarbonate it this way. It works really well with filtered apple juice, or with cheap wine to make it bubbly. Bob |
How to build a home CO2 carbonation system (the nozzle part)
On Sun, 04 Apr 2010 13:21:31 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
aggitation is a great way to trigger a rupture, but will help disolved the gas. The agitation works. My orange juice is now fully carbonated. As for the explosion ... in all the home carbonation articles I could find on the net (see below), not one discusses a rupture actually occuring. http://www.truetex.com/carbonation.htm http://jmillerid.com/wordpress/2010/...e-carbonation/ http://foo.net/~jmgray/carbonation/ http://www.kk.org/cooltools/archives/001818.php http://www.instructables.com/id/DIY-...ays-For-Itsel/ http://mendax.org/2008/05/02/carbonating-water-at-home/ http://www.inventionsthatwork.com/carbonator.htm http://groups.google.com/group/alt.h...e7cf7f24d463e5 I'm not brave enough to go over 150psi for a soda bottle, so, I'll have to leave it to others to say exactly what overpressure causes an explosion ... but I'd say, based on my one experience and my search, that explosion rarely (if ever) occurs at the pressures needed for home carbonation. I agree that your upside-down suggestion is better from the standpoint of C02 contact with the liquid (no need to shake) ... but it's just so much harder to accomplish that the right-side up with agitation method seems safe for most of us. |
How to build a home CO2 carbonation system (the nozzle part)
On Sun, 04 Apr 2010 16:07:13 -0500, Jeffrey D Angus wrote:
It's beginning to sound as dangerous as the new "Shake and Bake" method for making Meth in 2 liter bottled. Let's be serious. Out of the entire google record, there's not one recorded case of a bottle exploding (that I can find) ... so is it that dangerous? Maybe the danger you speak of is regarding the C02 tank itself (admittedly a bomb if the neck ever failed); however, lots of people have oxygen tanks in their homes which is far more dangerous than C02 (I would think), and they're not scared. If anyone can find, on record, a case of a home carbonation system exploding the bottle (there's one case where the hose melted because it was too close to heat), then that would be interesting. |
How to biuld a home CO2 carbonation system (the nozzle part)
On Sun, 4 Apr 2010 13:54:45 -0700, Bob F wrote:
The guage will then show approximately the equilibrium pressure at the current temperature of the water in the bottle. You can repeat this until you reach the desired carbonation. I was able to carbonate (explained in a thread where I corrected the spelling of "build" in the title). Basically, there are two fundamental methods: 1. Tire valve with the stem intact ... or ... 2. Tire valve with the stem removed. It takes only about a minute to fully carbonate a liter of liquid with the stem removed. The "flow" I had trouble understanding was a static "infusion" of carbon dioxide molecules into the fluid based on the partial pressure of C02 in the air space above the liquid and the partial pressure of C02 in the liquid; not a literal air-stream flow that was discernible. Method 1, as you noted, will work; it just takes a LOT longer with static C02 pressure because it takes about 4 volumes of C02 (i.e., 4 liters) to fully carbonate 1 volume of liquid (i.e., 1 liter). |
How to build a home CO2 carbonation system (the nozzle part)
Elmo wrote:
On Sun, 04 Apr 2010 13:21:31 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote: aggitation is a great way to trigger a rupture, but will help disolved the gas. The agitation works. My orange juice is now fully carbonated. As for the explosion ... in all the home carbonation articles I could find on the net (see below), not one discusses a rupture actually occuring. http://www.truetex.com/carbonation.htm http://jmillerid.com/wordpress/2010/...e-carbonation/ http://foo.net/~jmgray/carbonation/ http://www.kk.org/cooltools/archives/001818.php http://www.instructables.com/id/DIY-...ays-For-Itsel/ http://mendax.org/2008/05/02/carbonating-water-at-home/ http://www.inventionsthatwork.com/carbonator.htm http://groups.google.com/group/alt.h...e7cf7f24d463e5 I'm not brave enough to go over 150psi for a soda bottle, so, I'll have to leave it to others to say exactly what overpressure causes an explosion ... but I'd say, based on my one experience and my search, that explosion rarely (if ever) occurs at the pressures needed for home carbonation. I agree that your upside-down suggestion is better from the standpoint of C02 contact with the liquid (no need to shake) ... but it's just so much harder to accomplish that the right-side up with agitation method seems safe for most of us. Perhaps a stupid question, but have you tried simply mixing frozen concentrate with fizzy water? Or for that matter, just mixing the jug juice half-and-half with fizzy water? I'd bet in a blind taste test, your mouth could not tell the difference after the first sip, between that and your injected fizzy. I know, it's an engineer thing- I wouldn't understand. Anybody remember how they did 'needle beer' during prohibition? -- aem sends... |
How to build a home CO2 carbonation system (the nozzle part)
On Sun, 04 Apr 2010 19:59:21 -0400, aemeijers wrote:
Elmo wrote: On Sun, 04 Apr 2010 13:21:31 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote: aggitation is a great way to trigger a rupture, but will help disolved the gas. The agitation works. My orange juice is now fully carbonated. As for the explosion ... in all the home carbonation articles I could find on the net (see below), not one discusses a rupture actually occuring. http://www.truetex.com/carbonation.htm http://jmillerid.com/wordpress/2010/...e-carbonation/ http://foo.net/~jmgray/carbonation/ http://www.kk.org/cooltools/archives/001818.php http://www.instructables.com/id/DIY-...ays-For-Itsel/ http://mendax.org/2008/05/02/carbonating-water-at-home/ http://www.inventionsthatwork.com/carbonator.htm http://groups.google.com/group/alt.h...e7cf7f24d463e5 I'm not brave enough to go over 150psi for a soda bottle, so, I'll have to leave it to others to say exactly what overpressure causes an explosion ... but I'd say, based on my one experience and my search, that explosion rarely (if ever) occurs at the pressures needed for home carbonation. I agree that your upside-down suggestion is better from the standpoint of C02 contact with the liquid (no need to shake) ... but it's just so much harder to accomplish that the right-side up with agitation method seems safe for most of us. Perhaps a stupid question, but have you tried simply mixing frozen concentrate with fizzy water? Or for that matter, just mixing the jug juice half-and-half with fizzy water? I'd bet in a blind taste test, your mouth could not tell the difference after the first sip, between that and your injected fizzy. I know, it's an engineer thing- I wouldn't understand. Anybody remember how they did 'needle beer' during prohibition? Dunno, but according to my parents "bathtub gin" was all the rage. ;-) |
How to build a home CO2 carbonation system (the nozzle part)
Elmo wrote:
On Sun, 04 Apr 2010 13:21:31 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote: aggitation is a great way to trigger a rupture, but will help disolved the gas. The agitation works. My orange juice is now fully carbonated. As for the explosion ... in all the home carbonation articles I could find on the net (see below), not one discusses a rupture actually occuring. http://www.truetex.com/carbonation.htm http://jmillerid.com/wordpress/2010/...e-carbonation/ http://foo.net/~jmgray/carbonation/ http://www.kk.org/cooltools/archives/001818.php http://www.instructables.com/id/DIY-...ays-For-Itsel/ http://mendax.org/2008/05/02/carbonating-water-at-home/ http://www.inventionsthatwork.com/carbonator.htm http://groups.google.com/group/alt.h...e7cf7f24d463e5 I'm not brave enough to go over 150psi for a soda bottle, so, I'll have to leave it to others to say exactly what overpressure causes an explosion ... but I'd say, based on my one experience and my search, that explosion rarely (if ever) occurs at the pressures needed for home carbonation. There's really no reason to go anywhere near 150 psi. 50 psi is more than you'll ever need unless your just in a panic of a hurry. And there's no danger in agitating it as long as you are not hitting the bottle with a sharp object. Just shake the bottle. Even just shake the top back and forth to make crashing waves, which increases surface area and CO2 absorbtion. Shaking the bottle decreases the pressure, as the CO2 disolves into the water. It does not increase the pressure because the pressure at the top is higher than the stabile pressure in the CO2 in solution. I agree that your upside-down suggestion is better from the standpoint of C02 contact with the liquid (no need to shake) ... but it's just so much harder to accomplish that the right-side up with agitation method seems safe for most of us. You could make a filler cap with a 5 micron air stone that reaches to the bottom of the bottle. Or, you can shake the bottle, or just be more patient. |
How to build a home CO2 carbonation system (the nozzle part)
On Sun, 04 Apr 2010 19:59:21 -0400, aemeijers wrote:
Perhaps a stupid question, but have you tried simply mixing frozen concentrate with fizzy water? Or for that matter, just mixing the jug juice half-and-half with fizzy water? Hmmm... That might be interesting. I did understand your point. What you're saying is that a blind taste test might not know the difference if we either (a) Mix 1/2 seltzer + 1/2 water, or, (b) Mix 1/2 seltzer + 1/2 juice. The pro is that this is as simple as it gets ... Of course, the obvious con might be that test (a) isn't bubbly enough and test (b) is too diluted (in addition to potentially not being bubbly enough). But it's worth a try from someone out there. BTW, I saw articles suggesting dropping a chunk of dry ice into the liquid (outside, in case it pops the top when the very cold dry ice fizzes into the not as cold liquid). That would accomplish the same thing as you are suggesting. |
How to build a home CO2 carbonation system (the nozzle part)
Elmo wrote:
On Sun, 04 Apr 2010 19:59:21 -0400, aemeijers wrote: Perhaps a stupid question, but have you tried simply mixing frozen concentrate with fizzy water? Or for that matter, just mixing the jug juice half-and-half with fizzy water? Hmmm... That might be interesting. I did understand your point. What you're saying is that a blind taste test might not know the difference if we either (a) Mix 1/2 seltzer + 1/2 water, or, (b) Mix 1/2 seltzer + 1/2 juice. The pro is that this is as simple as it gets ... Of course, the obvious con might be that test (a) isn't bubbly enough and test (b) is too diluted (in addition to potentially not being bubbly enough). But it's worth a try from someone out there. BTW, I saw articles suggesting dropping a chunk of dry ice into the liquid (outside, in case it pops the top when the very cold dry ice fizzes into the not as cold liquid). That would accomplish the same thing as you are suggesting. I keep a "corney keg" of water (5 gal soda keg) full of water and carbonated, with a tap. I often just put a spoonful of flavoring, like "coffee syrup flavors" into a glass and top it off with the soda water. |
How to build a home CO2 carbonation system (the nozzle part)
On Sun, 4 Apr 2010 18:37:54 -0700, Bob F wrote:
I agree that your upside-down suggestion is better from the standpoint of C02 contact with the liquid (no need to shake) You could make a filler cap with a 5 micron air stone that reaches to the bottom of the bottle. Or, you can shake the bottle, or just be more patient. That's another interesting idea! Looking up air stones, I find such a thing exists (aka diffusion stone): http://www.homebrewing.com/equipment...-air-stone.php http://www.baderbrewing.com/store/pr...roductid=21801 http://www.brewingkb.com/equipment/d...stone-687.html Right now, I have August Schrader's valve (.305" OD, 32 tpi or 7.7 mm OD, 32 threads per inch), which was chosen for ease of installation (5/16th inch hole) and sealability (rubber gaskets & tie-down nut). We could put a similar threaded pipe sticking halfway on each side of the soda cap. On the bottom half (the half that goes into the bottle), we could put a hose and the 5 µm "air stone". I would assume the air stone should be large in relation to the bottom of the bottle so as to get as great a surface area as possible to bubble up since the pressure will soon equilibrate, hence the bubbling would (I guess) stop in seconds. Of course, the partial pressure of C02 is what matters so, even though the bubbling that pressurizes the 1 liter soda bottle stops, the inside of the bottle will be pressurized to 50 psi. This diffusion stone idea just might work. |
How to build a home CO2 carbonation system (the nozzle part)
On Sun, 4 Apr 2010 18:37:54 -0700, Bob F wrote:
Shaking the bottle decreases the pressure, as the CO2 disolves into the water. It does not increase the pressure because the pressure at the top is higher than the stabile pressure in the CO2 in solution. Very astute observation! I love the healthy exchange of ideas! |
How to biuld a home CO2 carbonation system (the nozzle part)
On Sun, 04 Apr 2010 16:52:53 -0500, zxcvbob wrote:
It works really well with filtered apple juice, or with cheap wine to make it bubbly. Some people even carbonate fruit! http://www.instructables.com/id/How-...bonated-Fruit/ |
How to build a home CO2 carbonation system (the nozzle part)
On Sun, 4 Apr 2010 22:32:48 +0000 (UTC), Elmo wrote:
http://www.truetex.com/carbonation.htm http://jmillerid.com/wordpress/2010/...e-carbonation/ http://foo.net/~jmgray/carbonation/ http://www.kk.org/cooltools/archives/001818.php http://www.instructables.com/id/DIY-...ays-For-Itsel/ http://mendax.org/2008/05/02/carbonating-water-at-home/ http://www.inventionsthatwork.com/carbonator.htm http://groups.google.com/group/alt.h...e7cf7f24d463e5 This guy carbonates in GLASS bottles (using a 2 micron carbonation stone)! http://www.winslam.com/laramee/blog/...rbonation.html By the way, the air-chuck idea promoted in some of these articles doesn't work as well as connections that are constantly open to the carbon dioxide. Also, a quick call to the 800 Coca-Cola number confirms the 2-liter Coke bottles are tested at 200 psi (amazing that they get this question often). WARNING: California outlawed many brass fittings as of January 1, 2010, so those of you in the tax state may have trouble buying lead-free fittings on line (most non-California brass fittings have up to 2% lead for ease of machining). |
How to build a home CO2 carbonation system (the nozzle part)
LM wrote:
http://www.truetex.com/carbonation.htm http://jmillerid.com/wordpress/2010/...e-carbonation/ http://foo.net/~jmgray/carbonation/ http://www.kk.org/cooltools/archives/001818.php http://www.instructables.com/id/DIY-...ays-For-Itsel/ http://mendax.org/2008/05/02/carbonating-water-at-home/ http://www.inventionsthatwork.com/carbonator.htm http://groups.google.com/group/alt.h...e7cf7f24d463e5 http://www.winslam.com/laramee/blog/...rbonation.html This guy's chart shows the Co2 you can put in liquids based on temperatu http://www.angelfire.com/cantina/carbonation/ He says at 30°F, you only need 10 PSI to carbonate soda to 3 parts Co2 per volume, while at 45°F you have to bring the pressure up to 25 PSI to get the same result, up to 60°F where you need over 30 PSI to get 3 parts of Co2 per volume of liquid. There's a picture of the guys pump system carbonator here http://www.angelfire.com/cantina/car...PumpSystem.htm I think I'll just stick to a CO2 tank and regulator. |
How to build a home CO2 carbonation system (the nozzle part)
Elmo wrote:
On Sun, 4 Apr 2010 18:37:54 -0700, Bob F wrote: I agree that your upside-down suggestion is better from the standpoint of C02 contact with the liquid (no need to shake) You could make a filler cap with a 5 micron air stone that reaches to the bottom of the bottle. Or, you can shake the bottle, or just be more patient. That's another interesting idea! Looking up air stones, I find such a thing exists (aka diffusion stone): http://www.homebrewing.com/equipment...-air-stone.php http://www.baderbrewing.com/store/pr...roductid=21801 http://www.brewingkb.com/equipment/d...stone-687.html Right now, I have August Schrader's valve (.305" OD, 32 tpi or 7.7 mm OD, 32 threads per inch), which was chosen for ease of installation (5/16th inch hole) and sealability (rubber gaskets & tie-down nut). We could put a similar threaded pipe sticking halfway on each side of the soda cap. On the bottom half (the half that goes into the bottle), we could put a hose and the 5 µm "air stone". I would assume the air stone should be large in relation to the bottom of the bottle so as to get as great a surface area as possible to bubble up since the pressure will soon equilibrate, hence the bubbling would (I guess) stop in seconds. Of course, the partial pressure of C02 is what matters so, even though the bubbling that pressurizes the 1 liter soda bottle stops, the inside of the bottle will be pressurized to 50 psi. This diffusion stone idea just might work. Myself - I wouldn't bother. I've read a lot about this kind of thing for corney kegs, but find for myself that just applying pressure and shaking them does the job just fine. Other times, I just turn on the high pressure every time I wander by the keg for a few seconds, until I get the pressure I want. You could do either with your bottles and It will work fine too. The more open space at the top of the bottle, the less times you will need to repeat the CO2 addition for the desired result. |
How to biuld a home CO2 carbonation system (the nozzle part)
http://www.truetex.com/carbonation.htm
-- Cheers, WB .............. "Elmo" wrote in message ... I've built a home CO2 carbonation system but I have a question about carbon dioxide flow (see pictures below). http://yfrog.com/13homec02system5jx Using a tire valve and a tire chuck, I can easily fill the soda bottle empty space with 50 psi of carbon dioxide, but that only gets the water slightly bubbly. The build-it-yourself tutorials on the web say the carbon dioxide must be FLOWING and they say they remove the inside part of the automotive tire valve. I have tried both ways and have two subsequent questions: If I keep the tire valve stem (i.e., the white soda top in the photo): Q: Why doesn't the cold water get more bubbly (like soda) at 50psi? If I remove the tire valve stem (i.e., the red soda top in the photo): Q: How do I get the tire chuck to work since it won't flow w/o the stem? Q: Even if I attach the hollow tire valve directly to the CO2 hose, how can more than the headspace of the bottle FLOW into the bottle? I don't get how I can get the CO2 to "flow"; seems to me it would just be static and fill the headspace. What am I doing wrong? See pictures he http://yfrog.com/13homec02system5jx |
How to biuld a home CO2 carbonation system (the nozzle part)
On Tue, 6 Apr 2010 00:39:48 -0400, Wild_Bill wrote:
http://www.truetex.com/carbonation.htm Indeed! That Richard J. Kinch treatise, titled " Carbonating at Home with Improvised Equipment" was what gave me the idea to build my own carbonator. He delved into the SCIENCE of it all; which gave me courage! But even that wonderful tutorial missed out on a few points. For example, "infusion" and not "flow" are what he should have used to describe how you get 4 liters of CO2 into a 1 liter bottle of Orange Juice in a closed system. Also, he didn't describe some technical points, some of which are listed in this CO2 Dynamics web site (http://www.warpig.com/paintball/tech...dynamics.shtml) such as a "full" tank contains only about 34% liquid CO2. But most surprising (to me), was the statement that the pressure of a co2 tank has nothing to do with the amount of co2 in the tank; the pressure (as long as there is "some" liquid in it) is always dependent solely upon the temperature. "At room temperature (70°F) it's about 853 psi." So, with my new carbon dioxide tank, I'm not sure how I tell how much co2 is left in the tank. Does anyone know how you tell when it's getting low? |
How to build a home CO2 carbonation system (the nozzle part)
On Sun, 4 Apr 2010 18:05:47 +0000 (UTC), Elmo wrote:
http://www.truetex.com/carbonation.htm Given a co2 tank at 72°F has a pressure of 860 psi (as long as there is some liquid still in the tank) according to this nice C02 tank care article: http://www.reefscapes.net/articles/b...co2_tanks.html I'm curious ... Q1: How do you know when you're "almost out" of liquid in a C02 tank??? |
How to build a home CO2 carbonation system (the nozzle part)
Elmo wrote:
On Sun, 4 Apr 2010 18:05:47 +0000 (UTC), Elmo wrote: http://www.truetex.com/carbonation.htm Given a co2 tank at 72°F has a pressure of 860 psi (as long as there is some liquid still in the tank) according to this nice C02 tank care article: http://www.reefscapes.net/articles/b...co2_tanks.html I'm curious ... Q1: How do you know when you're "almost out" of liquid in a C02 tank??? Shake it, dont stir. (according to J.B.) |
How to build a home CO2 carbonation system (the nozzle part)
On Sun, 4 Apr 2010 23:33:38 -0700, LM wrote:
Also, a quick call to the 800 Coca-Cola number confirms the 2-liter Coke bottles are tested at 200 psi (amazing that they get this question often). I'm learning more and more how to build (and maintain for safety) a home carbonating system! Since C02 pressure is around 800 psi, I was wondering why my C02 gauge goes muuuch higher. I found out the Co2 pressure is logarithmically temperature related ... so at reasonably warm summer temperatures (over 90°F), the C02 tank pressure could climb over 1200psi! So, the first thing is to keep the tank covered from sunlight! Also keep the C02 tank vertical! This article explains why. http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/diy_co2rig.htm BTW, some people use C02 tanks to fill large off-road tires because a typical air tank (they say) doesn't hold enough air. Interesting: http://www.stu-offroad.com/recovery/co2/co2-1.htm |
How to build a home CO2 carbonation system (the nozzle part)
On Sun, 04 Apr 2010 19:59:21 -0400, aemeijers wrote:
I know, it's an engineer thing- I wouldn't understand. Yes. I'm trying to learn as much as I can about the proper assembling & use of a home carbon dioxide soda fountain. Another thing I learned is that I should NOT have used that Teflon tape to seal all the joints in the regulators and hoses! :() According to this article (http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/CO2/bottle.html), Teflon "flows" and refuses to "wet" but it "shreds", thereby fouling the regulators. So far, I think I've made every mistake you can make! :( - I had the C02 bottle on its side - I pressurized the soda bottle to 150psi - I used Teflon tape to seal the high-pressure fittings - I used a tire chuck with an intact Schrader valve (instead of removing the stem of the Schrader valve) etc. But, I'm learning ... Any advice you can give is always welcome! |
How to biuld a home CO2 carbonation system (the nozzle part)
In article , Elmo wrote:
On Tue, 6 Apr 2010 00:39:48 -0400, Wild_Bill wrote: http://www.truetex.com/carbonation.htm Indeed! That Richard J. Kinch treatise, titled " Carbonating at Home with Improvised Equipment" was what gave me the idea to build my own carbonator. He delved into the SCIENCE of it all; which gave me courage! But even that wonderful tutorial missed out on a few points. For example, "infusion" and not "flow" are what he should have used to describe how you get 4 liters of CO2 into a 1 liter bottle of Orange Juice in a closed system. Also, he didn't describe some technical points, some of which are listed in this CO2 Dynamics web site (http://www.warpig.com/paintball/tech...dynamics.shtml) such as a "full" tank contains only about 34% liquid CO2. But most surprising (to me), was the statement that the pressure of a co2 tank has nothing to do with the amount of co2 in the tank; the pressure (as long as there is "some" liquid in it) is always dependent solely upon the temperature. "At room temperature (70°F) it's about 853 psi." So, with my new carbon dioxide tank, I'm not sure how I tell how much co2 is left in the tank. Does anyone know how you tell when it's getting low? With a little personal experience, you can tell by the weight of the tank. And once the liquid is completely gone and the pressure starts dropping, you probably have a few days of usefulness remaining. A few liters of CO2 at 800 PSI is enough to carbonate 10's of liters of soda before the pressure in the tank drops to the 100-120 PSI or so used for carbonation. - Don Klipstein ) |
How to biuld a home CO2 carbonation system (the nozzle part)
On Tue, 6 Apr 2010 19:28:32 +0000 (UTC), Elmo
wrote: So, with my new carbon dioxide tank, I'm not sure how I tell how much co2 is left in the tank. Does anyone know how you tell when it's getting low? Ummm... arithmetic? Weigh the empty tank (or ask the supplier for the empty weight). Weigh the tank with whatever amount of C02 you have left. The difference is how many pounds of C02 you have left. You can also sorta do it the same way as with a propane tank. Get a liquid crystal thermometer strip and glue it vertically to the side of the tank. Leak a little gas and you should see the warm/cold liquid dividing line. The problem is that the propane tank is quite thin compared to most CO2 tanks, thus making the thicker CO2 tank more difficult to see the dividing line. It also works best with steel tanks, and doesn't work at all with aluminum. http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=gTkeAAAAEBAJ&dq=4358955 You can also use an IR thermometer to locate the liquid level. -- # Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060 # 831-336-2558 # http://802.11junk.com # http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS |
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