"ransley" wrote in message
...
On Mar 31, 6:22 pm, Anthona wrote:
I just purchased online from home depot an edger/trimmer...In the
specifications it said electric, nothing mentioned about batteries.
and i thought that was what i getting. It turned out it was cordless
with 18v ni-cad battery. Now from past experience, i have had bad luck
with those batteries...mostly through my ignorance of different type
of batteries..Recently i learned that Lithium batteries were the
better choice, if i was going for cordless. I went back to the site
and sure enough, the heading of the sale did say cordless. Now can
someone tell me how to maintain these batteries when not in use?
Obviously here in the new england area i won't be using it all year.
The manual says nothing about that.

Who made the trimmer, HD Ridgid brand has a lifetime warranty on even
batteries, but if its maybe B&D dont count on much the second year,
with HD I think you have 30 day return, for an edge trimmer I would
only use gas or 120v corded. Nicads are considered discharged just
when the unit slows, running a battery dead can ruin it, they also
need to be charged to their peak then charging must stop or you cook
the battery to a shorter life, so you need to know how to determine
your charger does it right.

Agree. B&D cordless tools have had the worst performing batteries I've ever
run into. The only exception was their cordless lawn mower and those
batteries lasted only because I completely disregarded their instructions
and did NOT leave it plugged in all the time.

The mower uses lead acid cells, which may be why it lasted, but the
trimmers, edgers, drills, vacuums and every other B&D nicad based cordless
device I have ever owned did not survive longer than one season.

The drill packs always suffered the same failure mode. The centermost
battery in the back failed first because it overheated when charging because
it was in the center of a ring of other ni-cads and could not dissipate the
heat from charging as well as the outer batteries.

Any tool you buy today should either be NiMH or LiOn. NiCad is old, bad
technology, subject to memory issues and premature death. Also, with LiOn
cells, manufacturers HAVE to build in overcharging protection. In the B&D
devices I took apart, they charged as long as they were kept plugged in and
overcharged very easily. There was no autoshutoff when charged circuitry.

LiOn packs will explode if overcharged, so manufacturers put temperature and
other sensors in their charging circuits to prevent overcharging.
Sometimes, other things go wrong, though:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery says:

"For example, approximately 10 million Sony batteries used in Dell, Sony,
Apple, Lenovo/IBM, Panasonic, Toshiba, Hitachi, Fujitsu and Sharp laptops
were recalled in 2006. The batteries were found to be susceptible to
internal contamination by metal particles. Under some circumstances, these
particles can pierce the separator, causing the cell to short. The cell will
begin to rapidly convert all of its energy into heat. This creates an
exothermic oxidizing reaction, causing the temperature to a few hundred
degrees Celsius in a fraction of a second.[81] A chain reaction occurs when
neighboring cells heat up, and in some cases, causes the battery to ignite."

So, not ALL the kinks have been worked out with LiOn batteries, but I'd
still prefer them for the power-to-weight ration in any hand powered tool
with one exception.

All that said, I often still prefer to use devices that accept standard
battery sizes so I can buy and charge my own NiMH cells. Not as convenient
as built-in lithium ion batteries, but a certain class of items, like
cameras, MP3 players, etc. it's nice to be able to buy batteries when away
from a charger or carry ready spares.

--
Bobby G.

"Robert Green" wrote in
:

"ransley" wrote in message
.
.. On Mar 31, 6:22 pm, Anthona wrote:
I just purchased online from home depot an edger/trimmer...In the
specifications it said electric, nothing mentioned about batteries.
and i thought that was what i getting. It turned out it was cordless
with 18v ni-cad battery. Now from past experience, i have had bad
luck with those batteries...mostly through my ignorance of different
type of batteries..Recently i learned that Lithium batteries were the
better choice, if i was going for cordless. I went back to the site
and sure enough, the heading of the sale did say cordless. Now can
someone tell me how to maintain these batteries when not in use?
Obviously here in the new england area i won't be using it all year.
The manual says nothing about that.

Who made the trimmer, HD Ridgid brand has a lifetime warranty on even
batteries, but if its maybe B&D dont count on much the second year,
with HD I think you have 30 day return, for an edge trimmer I would
only use gas or 120v corded. Nicads are considered discharged just
when the unit slows, running a battery dead can ruin it, they also
need to be charged to their peak then charging must stop or you cook
the battery to a shorter life, so you need to know how to determine
your charger does it right.

Agree. B&D cordless tools have had the worst performing batteries
I've ever run into. The only exception was their cordless lawn mower
and those batteries lasted only because I completely disregarded their
instructions and did NOT leave it plugged in all the time.

The mower uses lead acid cells, which may be why it lasted, but the
trimmers, edgers, drills, vacuums and every other B&D nicad based
cordless device I have ever owned did not survive longer than one
season.

The drill packs always suffered the same failure mode. The centermost
battery in the back failed first because it overheated when charging
because it was in the center of a ring of other ni-cads and could not
dissipate the heat from charging as well as the outer batteries.

Any tool you buy today should either be NiMH or LiOn.


NiCad is old,
bad technology, subject to memory issues and premature death.

IF misused. Otherwise,they are fine."memory issues" has been debunked.
you can screw up NiMH just as easily as NiCd,if you don't charge them
right.

Also,
with LiOn cells, manufacturers HAVE to build in overcharging
protection. In the B&D devices I took apart, they charged as long as
they were kept plugged in and overcharged very easily. There was no
autoshutoff when charged circuitry.

probably due to cheapo slow chargers,that aren't regulated in any way.
Fast charger systems have sensors or smart ICs to monitor charge and shut
down when the pack is fully chargerd.


LiOn packs will explode if overcharged, so manufacturers put
temperature and other sensors in their charging circuits to prevent
overcharging. Sometimes, other things go wrong, though:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery says:

"For example, approximately 10 million Sony batteries used in Dell,
Sony, Apple, Lenovo/IBM, Panasonic, Toshiba, Hitachi, Fujitsu and
Sharp laptops were recalled in 2006. The batteries were found to be
susceptible to internal contamination by metal particles. Under some
circumstances, these particles can pierce the separator, causing the
cell to short. The cell will begin to rapidly convert all of its
energy into heat. This creates an exothermic oxidizing reaction,
causing the temperature to a few hundred degrees Celsius in a fraction
of a second.[81] A chain reaction occurs when neighboring cells heat
up, and in some cases, causes the battery to ignite."

So, not ALL the kinks have been worked out with LiOn batteries, but
I'd still prefer them for the power-to-weight ration in any hand
powered tool with one exception.

All that said, I often still prefer to use devices that accept
standard battery sizes so I can buy and charge my own NiMH cells. Not
as convenient as built-in lithium ion batteries, but a certain class
of items, like cameras, MP3 players, etc. it's nice to be able to buy
batteries when away from a charger or carry ready spares.

--
Bobby G.




Ok,the guy wanted to know how to maintain the NiCd pack he ALREADY HAS.
It's best if you recharge before putting the item away;don't store NiCds if
they are depleted.
Also,chargers that fast charge (1 hr or less)give better NiCd life.
IF you happen to have a slow (trickle) charger,use a timer to charge to the
recommended full charge time and no more.it's probably best to remove the
pack from the charger when it's finished charging;some chargers will
discharge a pack left in it.


One nice thing about Lithiums is that they keep a charge much longer in
storage. (but they cost more)
both NiCds and NiMH self-discharge in storage.
There are a couple of brands of loose NiMH cells that have very low self-
discharge,like Kodak,but you don't find them built into packs.
They're called "precharged NiMH". I don't know if they are offered in other
than AA,AAA sizes yet.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

Ok,the guy wanted to know how to maintain the NiCd pack he ALREADY HAS.
It's best if you recharge before putting the item away;don't store NiCds if
they are depleted.

That's not true. If your objective is to maximize the life of a Ni-Cad
and you are willing to not have a battery in a ready state of use then
the below would be the proper way to store the battery.

Run the tool until the battery is drained. With a Ni-Cad that would
be when the motor noticeably slows. Store it in this condition if it
will not be used for over a month. After long periods of storage the
first charge will be of a lower capacity but after a few charges its
capacity will become normal.

Things that can harm Ni-Cads a

Over discharging
Over heating
Over doing the charge/discharge cycles.

"Jim Yanik" wrote in message
...
"Robert Green" wrote in
:

"ransley" wrote in message
.
.. On Mar 31, 6:22 pm, Anthona wrote:
I just purchased online from home depot an edger/trimmer...In the
specifications it said electric, nothing mentioned about batteries.
and i thought that was what i getting. It turned out it was cordless
with 18v ni-cad battery. Now from past experience, i have had bad
luck with those batteries...mostly through my ignorance of different
type of batteries..Recently i learned that Lithium batteries were the
better choice, if i was going for cordless. I went back to the site
and sure enough, the heading of the sale did say cordless. Now can
someone tell me how to maintain these batteries when not in use?
Obviously here in the new england area i won't be using it all year.
The manual says nothing about that.

Who made the trimmer, HD Ridgid brand has a lifetime warranty on even
batteries, but if its maybe B&D dont count on much the second year,
with HD I think you have 30 day return, for an edge trimmer I would
only use gas or 120v corded. Nicads are considered discharged just
when the unit slows, running a battery dead can ruin it, they also
need to be charged to their peak then charging must stop or you cook
the battery to a shorter life, so you need to know how to determine
your charger does it right.

Agree. B&D cordless tools have had the worst performing batteries
I've ever run into. The only exception was their cordless lawn mower
and those batteries lasted only because I completely disregarded their
instructions and did NOT leave it plugged in all the time.

The mower uses lead acid cells, which may be why it lasted, but the
trimmers, edgers, drills, vacuums and every other B&D nicad based
cordless device I have ever owned did not survive longer than one
season.

The drill packs always suffered the same failure mode. The centermost
battery in the back failed first because it overheated when charging
because it was in the center of a ring of other ni-cads and could not
dissipate the heat from charging as well as the outer batteries.

Any tool you buy today should either be NiMH or LiOn.


NiCad is old,
bad technology, subject to memory issues and premature death.

IF misused. Otherwise,they are fine."memory issues" has been debunked.
you can screw up NiMH just as easily as NiCd,if you don't charge them
right.

My drawer full of dead NiCad packs takes issues with your statement that
"memory issues" have been been debunked. They are just too sensitive to
charging issues and UNLIKE LiOn cells, often don't have limiting circuits in
their chargers. It's hard to know whether a NiCad tool comes with a
limiting charger from reading the box information. LiOn powered tools HAVE
to use a limiting charger or they will explode. That's one reason why LiOn
is the better choice.

Two more are that they completely surpass NiCad in power delivered per pound
of battery, imporant in a hand tool that you carry around, and secondly the
individual cells are much less likely to reverse polarity or go completely
dead and take other cells down with them. That may be entirely because LiOn
chargers detect overvoltage and overheating conditions, but whatever the
reason, they are far superior in terms of longevity.

I've had NiCads die (go to 0 volts) and become unchargeable just sitting in
a drawer. To be candid, I still have some NiCads bought at Lafayette
electronics (a clue to how old they are!) that will still take and hold a
charge, but far more of them just died in their sleep. Not the kind of
battery the OP wants, IMHO.

Also,
with LiOn cells, manufacturers HAVE to build in overcharging
protection. In the B&D devices I took apart, they charged as long as
they were kept plugged in and overcharged very easily. There was no
autoshutoff when charged circuitry.

probably due to cheapo slow chargers,that aren't regulated in any way.
Fast charger systems have sensors or smart ICs to monitor charge and shut
down when the pack is fully chargerd.

Great. How does the OP know which one he's gotten? It's a guessing game,
and the final determinant is monitoring the pack while charging or taking
the charger apart. Who wants to take the chance you've bought a unit with a
charger that has the capacity to kill you batteries if you forget to remove
them from the charger promptly.

With LiOn, you can be *almost* certain you're getting the charger you
describe. With NiCad, almost the reverse is true because you know the
manufacturer of the tool chose a cheaper power source to save money. It's
just as likely they chose a cheap charger to lower prices as well.

LiOn packs will explode if overcharged, so manufacturers put
temperature and other sensors in their charging circuits to prevent
overcharging. Sometimes, other things go wrong, though:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery says:

"For example, approximately 10 million Sony batteries used in Dell,
Sony, Apple, Lenovo/IBM, Panasonic, Toshiba, Hitachi, Fujitsu and
Sharp laptops were recalled in 2006. The batteries were found to be
susceptible to internal contamination by metal particles. Under some
circumstances, these particles can pierce the separator, causing the
cell to short. The cell will begin to rapidly convert all of its
energy into heat. This creates an exothermic oxidizing reaction,
causing the temperature to a few hundred degrees Celsius in a fraction
of a second.[81] A chain reaction occurs when neighboring cells heat
up, and in some cases, causes the battery to ignite."

So, not ALL the kinks have been worked out with LiOn batteries, but
I'd still prefer them for the power-to-weight ration in any hand
powered tool with one exception.

All that said, I often still prefer to use devices that accept
standard battery sizes so I can buy and charge my own NiMH cells. Not
as convenient as built-in lithium ion batteries, but a certain class
of items, like cameras, MP3 players, etc. it's nice to be able to buy
batteries when away from a charger or carry ready spares.


Ok,the guy wanted to know how to maintain the NiCd pack he ALREADY HAS.

Are you SURE? That's not what I got from the post. I read that he expected
to get a corded unit and got a cordless NiCad instead. I also read that he
just bought the unit from HD, and they certainly allow refunds within a
reasonable time period. I further read that even the OP knows that LiOn
batteries are better.

Taking all those facts into consideration, I am advising him to run, not
walk, to HD and take the damn thing back because my experience is that NiCad
will not last long, especially with a crappy charger, and that within a year
or two, he will face the expense of replacing them, which for some (most?)
tools is a factory job costing more than a new tool.

It's best if you recharge before putting the item away;don't store NiCds
if
they are depleted.
Also,chargers that fast charge (1 hr or less)give better NiCd life.
IF you happen to have a slow (trickle) charger,use a timer to charge to
the
recommended full charge time and no more.it's probably best to remove the
pack from the charger when it's finished charging;some chargers will
discharge a pack left in it.

Great advice if someone wants a battery pack they have to shave in the
morning. (That's what some soldiers said about our rifles in 'Nam compared
to the lowly but much more reliable AK-47 used by our enemy.) If they want a
tool that's light and performs rings around NiCad powered ones, LiOn's the
only choice, far superior to even the best NiMH cells. I have a lot of
power hungry devices that use AA's but for the ones that use 12V's worth of
double AA's I've been switching over to LiOn cell packs and chargers because
they last twice as long as even the best NiMH but weigh far less.

One nice thing about Lithiums is that they keep a charge much longer in
storage. (but they cost more)
both NiCds and NiMH self-discharge in storage.

True, dat. But new NiMH's like the Sanyo Enerloop appear to maintain much
of their charge for a year. I haven't personally tested that claim - but I
just might to see if it's really true. A year long charge would make them
good enough for seasonal work. There's no NiCad battery I know of that will
hold a charge for much more than a few months.

NiMH's also don't have to be completely discharged to be recharged. Unless
you point me to a reputable site that says the NiCad memory issue is solved
and no one sells a memory-effect troubled NiCad, I am sticking with over 25
years of experience and research that says NiCads can't touch LiOn cells for
reliability, charge holding, immunity to charging errors and power to weight
ratio. Whenever a NiCad pack fails, I replace it with some other
technology. Sometimes, like on power drills, I cut apart the old pack and
attach a 12V gel cell. Not a convenient as a replacement, but far more
reliable and powerful than the NiCad based original.

There are a couple of brands of loose NiMH cells that have very low self-
discharge,like Kodak,but you don't find them built into packs.

Anyone with a little ingenuity can deal with that. The 100 LED superbright
flashlights I use have holders with two buttons on the end. I made a
charger out of some scrap plastic and a 4 NiMH wall-wart charger I got from
Allelectronics. I just slide the pack out and into the charging jig. I
prefer this system because I can replace problem cells easily. I've been
using 2500MAh Maha and Ultralast AA cells in those units, but I am thinking
of switching over to the Sanyo Enerloops if they hold a charge as long as
they claim.

My theory on flashlights is that they should light up every time you need
them. Used to use AA Alkalines, but there's a design flaw in the flashlight
that in its normal head down position, you can't tell whether the light is
on or off. I say "normal" because this a showerhead flashlight with a huge
head studded with 100 white LEDs. It's absolutely unmatched as a light
source for microphotography because it's virtually shadowless. I somewhat
solve the problem by putting little rubber bumpers on the face to hold the
light up a few mm's off the table top. That way enough light leaks out that
you can almost always see that you've left it on.

They're called "precharged NiMH". I don't know if they are offered in
other
than AA,AAA sizes yet.

The chemistry for NiMH is slowly improving because each year, new and better
batteries appear. Some manufacturers allege that their NiMH double AA cells
deliver 3000MAh , but I am skeptical. I'll be able to report more precisely
when my new LaCrosse LCD charger arrives that gives a readout on how many
milliamps a discharged battery absorbed, among other things.

http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/travelpower/b7fd/

Oddly enough, this multiple featured charger comes with a NiCad
reconditioning mode to completely drain and recharge NiCads over multiple
cycles. That's a curious thing to add to a battery charger if NiCads don't
suffer from memory issues, but both their engineers and I could be wrong and
you right.

Just show me the $/URL. (-: It wouldn't be the first time that 25 years of
experience goes out the window with some new breathrough, but memory free
NiCads I think I would have heard of. Still, to be safe, I'll Topeka it .
.. . .

http://www.facilitiesnet.com/equipme...-Battery--3001

"The professional grade tools that use NiCad batteries make up a small
portion of the cordless power tool market, Fairchild says. "About 15 percent
of the market is upper-end tools and about half of those tools that use
NiCad batteries don't suffer from memory effect," he says."

So, I still stand by my belief that the batteries you find in specially
manufactured items for HD or WallyMart (translation: lowest bid) are not
going to be China's best and they are likely to perform badly if subject to
the typical (mis)use/charge cycle of a seasonal tool.

There are a lot of things to consider, but if the OP wanted corded
originally, I think he should return the unit and get a corded one. Edger
trimmers are easier to handle on a long cord than some other tools, like
hedge clippers or snow blowers. And a line power trimmer will run for a
long time after a NiCad powered unit is only good for one side of a short
walkway or less per charge.

--
Bobby G.

On Sat, 3 Apr 2010 16:51:08 -0400, "Robert Green"
wrote:

"Jim Yanik" wrote in message
4...
"Robert Green" wrote in
:

"ransley" wrote in message
.
.. On Mar 31, 6:22 pm, Anthona wrote:
I just purchased online from home depot an edger/trimmer...In the
specifications it said electric, nothing mentioned about batteries.
and i thought that was what i getting. It turned out it was cordless
with 18v ni-cad battery. Now from past experience, i have had bad
luck with those batteries...mostly through my ignorance of different
type of batteries..Recently i learned that Lithium batteries were the
better choice, if i was going for cordless. I went back to the site
and sure enough, the heading of the sale did say cordless. Now can
someone tell me how to maintain these batteries when not in use?
Obviously here in the new england area i won't be using it all year.
The manual says nothing about that.

Who made the trimmer, HD Ridgid brand has a lifetime warranty on even
batteries, but if its maybe B&D dont count on much the second year,
with HD I think you have 30 day return, for an edge trimmer I would
only use gas or 120v corded. Nicads are considered discharged just
when the unit slows, running a battery dead can ruin it, they also
need to be charged to their peak then charging must stop or you cook
the battery to a shorter life, so you need to know how to determine
your charger does it right.

Agree. B&D cordless tools have had the worst performing batteries
I've ever run into. The only exception was their cordless lawn mower
and those batteries lasted only because I completely disregarded their
instructions and did NOT leave it plugged in all the time.

The mower uses lead acid cells, which may be why it lasted, but the
trimmers, edgers, drills, vacuums and every other B&D nicad based
cordless device I have ever owned did not survive longer than one
season.

The drill packs always suffered the same failure mode. The centermost
battery in the back failed first because it overheated when charging
because it was in the center of a ring of other ni-cads and could not
dissipate the heat from charging as well as the outer batteries.

Any tool you buy today should either be NiMH or LiOn.


NiCad is old,
bad technology, subject to memory issues and premature death.

IF misused. Otherwise,they are fine."memory issues" has been debunked.
you can screw up NiMH just as easily as NiCd,if you don't charge them
right.

My drawer full of dead NiCad packs takes issues with your statement that
"memory issues" have been been debunked. They are just too sensitive to
charging issues and UNLIKE LiOn cells, often don't have limiting circuits in
their chargers. It's hard to know whether a NiCad tool comes with a
limiting charger from reading the box information. LiOn powered tools HAVE
to use a limiting charger or they will explode. That's one reason why LiOn
is the better choice.

Jim is right. There is no significant "memory effect" in NiCds, at least
there hasn't been for 30 years or so. There are all sorts of ways to kill
NiCds, but the "memory effect" isn't one of them. If you're worried about
chargers killing batteries (not anything to do with the mythical "memory
effect"), buy only tools that have a quick charger. If you're really
squeamish buy only tools with chargers that shut themselves off after charge.

Two more are that they completely surpass NiCad in power delivered per pound
of battery, imporant in a hand tool that you carry around, and secondly the
individual cells are much less likely to reverse polarity or go completely
dead and take other cells down with them. That may be entirely because LiOn
chargers detect overvoltage and overheating conditions, but whatever the
reason, they are far superior in terms of longevity.

If you allow NiCds to reverse charge, yes, you are asking for trouble.
However, LiIons aren't without problems. They're expensive and have a finite
life. NiCds are a better choice for many tools. No battery likes to be
overheated. LiIon is no better.

I've had NiCads die (go to 0 volts) and become unchargeable just sitting in
a drawer. To be candid, I still have some NiCads bought at Lafayette
electronics (a clue to how old they are!) that will still take and hold a
charge, but far more of them just died in their sleep. Not the kind of
battery the OP wants, IMHO.

Those are probably all salvageable. NiCds tend to grow dendrites, which are
repairable (burn 'em out).

Also,
with LiOn cells, manufacturers HAVE to build in overcharging
protection. In the B&D devices I took apart, they charged as long as
they were kept plugged in and overcharged very easily. There was no
autoshutoff when charged circuitry.

probably due to cheapo slow chargers,that aren't regulated in any way.
Fast charger systems have sensors or smart ICs to monitor charge and shut
down when the pack is fully chargerd.

Great. How does the OP know which one he's gotten? It's a guessing game,
and the final determinant is monitoring the pack while charging or taking
the charger apart. Who wants to take the chance you've bought a unit with a
charger that has the capacity to kill you batteries if you forget to remove
them from the charger promptly.

What is there about "fast chargers" is difficult to figure out?

" wrote in
news
On Sat, 3 Apr 2010 16:51:08 -0400, "Robert Green"
wrote:

"Jim Yanik" wrote in message
. 44...
"Robert Green" wrote in
:

"ransley" wrote in message
.
com. .. On Mar 31, 6:22 pm, Anthona wrote:
I just purchased online from home depot an edger/trimmer...In the
specifications it said electric, nothing mentioned about
batteries. and i thought that was what i getting. It turned out
it was cordless with 18v ni-cad battery. Now from past
experience, i have had bad luck with those batteries...mostly
through my ignorance of different type of batteries..Recently i
learned that Lithium batteries were the better choice, if i was
going for cordless. I went back to the site and sure enough, the
heading of the sale did say cordless. Now can someone tell me how
to maintain these batteries when not in use? Obviously here in
the new england area i won't be using it all year. The manual
says nothing about that.

Who made the trimmer, HD Ridgid brand has a lifetime warranty on
even
batteries, but if its maybe B&D dont count on much the second
year, with HD I think you have 30 day return, for an edge trimmer
I would only use gas or 120v corded. Nicads are considered
discharged just when the unit slows, running a battery dead can
ruin it, they also need to be charged to their peak then charging
must stop or you cook the battery to a shorter life, so you need
to know how to determine your charger does it right.

Agree. B&D cordless tools have had the worst performing batteries
I've ever run into. The only exception was their cordless lawn
mower and those batteries lasted only because I completely
disregarded their instructions and did NOT leave it plugged in all
the time.

The mower uses lead acid cells, which may be why it lasted, but
the trimmers, edgers, drills, vacuums and every other B&D nicad
based cordless device I have ever owned did not survive longer
than one season.

The drill packs always suffered the same failure mode. The
centermost battery in the back failed first because it overheated
when charging because it was in the center of a ring of other
ni-cads and could not dissipate the heat from charging as well as
the outer batteries.

Any tool you buy today should either be NiMH or LiOn.


NiCad is old,
bad technology, subject to memory issues and premature death.

IF misused. Otherwise,they are fine."memory issues" has been
debunked. you can screw up NiMH just as easily as NiCd,if you don't
charge them right.

My drawer full of dead NiCad packs takes issues with your statement
that "memory issues" have been been debunked. They are just too
sensitive to charging issues and UNLIKE LiOn cells, often don't have
limiting circuits in their chargers. It's hard to know whether a
NiCad tool comes with a limiting charger from reading the box
information.

then do your homework before buying.
The Internet is a powerful tool for researching a potential purchase.


LiOn powered tools HAVE to use a limiting charger or
they will explode. That's one reason why LiOn is the better choice.

Jim is right. There is no significant "memory effect" in NiCds, at
least there hasn't been for 30 years or so. There are all sorts of
ways to kill NiCds, but the "memory effect" isn't one of them. If
you're worried about chargers killing batteries (not anything to do
with the mythical "memory effect"), buy only tools that have a quick
charger. If you're really squeamish buy only tools with chargers that
shut themselves off after charge.

I wonder if Mr.Green knows what "memory effect" actually is.
It has to do with charge capacity.

Two more are that they completely surpass NiCad in power delivered per
pound of battery, imporant in a hand tool that you carry around, and
secondly the individual cells are much less likely to reverse polarity
or go completely dead and take other cells down with them. That may
be entirely because LiOn chargers detect overvoltage and overheating
conditions, but whatever the reason, they are far superior in terms of
longevity.

NOT relevant,as the OP already HAS a NiCD tool.
At best,a lesson for the NEXT purchase.

If you allow NiCds to reverse charge, yes, you are asking for trouble.
However, LiIons aren't without problems. They're expensive and have a
finite life. NiCds are a better choice for many tools. No battery
likes to be overheated. LiIon is no better.

I've had NiCads die (go to 0 volts) and become unchargeable just
sitting in a drawer.

Well,Yeah,that's the "self-discharge" thingy...

To be candid, I still have some NiCads bought at
Lafayette electronics (a clue to how old they are!) that will still
take and hold a charge, but far more of them just died in their sleep.
Not the kind of battery the OP wants, IMHO.

Except the original poster SAID he HAS an item with NiCD,and also SAID he
wanted to know how to maintain them.
Sure,he didn't read the package to find out what he was buying,but that's
not the NiCD's fault.
Sure,he can probably return the item.But that's not "maintaining" them.

Those are probably all salvageable. NiCds tend to grow dendrites,
which are repairable (burn 'em out).

Not really "repairable". Sure,you can burn out the dendrites,but the
separator still has that puncture in it,and new dendrites will grow.

Also,
with LiOn cells, manufacturers HAVE to build in overcharging
protection. In the B&D devices I took apart, they charged as long
as they were kept plugged in and overcharged very easily. There
was no autoshutoff when charged circuitry.

probably due to cheapo slow chargers,that aren't regulated in any
way. Fast charger systems have sensors or smart ICs to monitor
charge and shut down when the pack is fully chargerd.

Great. How does the OP know which one he's gotten?

READ the box? or research BEFORE buying.
Or ASK a knowledgeable clerk,if you can find one.

It's a guessing
game, and the final determinant is monitoring the pack while charging
or taking the charger apart. Who wants to take the chance you've
bought a unit with a charger that has the capacity to kill you
batteries if you forget to remove them from the charger promptly.

What is there about "fast chargers" is difficult to figure out?



It requires READING and UNDERSTANDING.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

"Jim Yanik" wrote in message

At best,a lesson for the NEXT purchase.

Holy Toledo Tools! It's NOT, as you claim, "at best a lesson for the NEXT
purchase." Given the OP's original information, of COURSE he can take the
tool back if he has retained his receipt. Based on when he said he bought
it, he's certainly eligible for a refund from a place that we both know has
a generous refund policy. Based on his originally wanting a corded unit, I
think he SHOULD take it back ASAP and get a better tool.

(Especially if he doesn't want to involve himself in a technology like
NiCads that have more ways to die than a sequel to "Friday the 13th" or
"Saw.")

--
Bobby G.

On Apr 1, 2:20*am, "Robert Green" wrote:
"ransley" wrote in message

...
On Mar 31, 6:22 pm, Anthona wrote:

I just purchased online from home depot an edger/trimmer...In the
specifications it said electric, nothing mentioned about batteries.
and i thought that was what i getting. It turned out it was cordless
with 18v ni-cad battery. Now from past experience, i have had bad luck
with those batteries...mostly through my ignorance of different type
of batteries..Recently i learned that Lithium batteries were the
better choice, if i was going for cordless. I went back to the site
and sure enough, the heading of the sale did say cordless. Now can
someone tell me how to maintain these batteries when not in use?
Obviously here in the new england area i won't be using it all year.
The manual says nothing about that.

Who made the trimmer, HD Ridgid brand has a lifetime warranty on even
batteries, but if its maybe B&D dont count on much the second year,
with HD I think you have 30 day return, for an edge trimmer I would
only use gas or 120v corded. Nicads are considered discharged just
when the unit slows, running a battery dead can ruin it, they also
need to be charged to their peak then charging must stop or you cook
the battery to a shorter life, so you need to know how to determine
your charger does it right.

Agree. *B&D cordless tools have had the worst performing batteries I've ever
run into. *The only exception was their cordless lawn mower and those
batteries lasted only because I completely disregarded their instructions
and did NOT leave it plugged in all the time.

The mower uses lead acid cells, which may be why it lasted, but the
trimmers, edgers, drills, vacuums and every other B&D nicad based cordless
device I have ever owned did not survive longer than one season.

The drill packs always suffered the same failure mode. *The centermost
battery in the back failed first because it overheated when charging because
it was in the center of a ring of other ni-cads and could not dissipate the
heat from charging as well as the outer batteries.

Any tool you buy today should either be NiMH or LiOn. *NiCad is old, bad
technology, subject to memory issues and premature death. *Also, with LiOn
cells, manufacturers HAVE to build in overcharging protection. *In the B&D
devices I took apart, they charged as long as they were kept plugged in and
overcharged very easily. *There was no autoshutoff when charged circuitry.

LiOn packs will explode if overcharged, so manufacturers put temperature and
other sensors in their charging circuits to prevent overcharging.
Sometimes, other things go wrong, though:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery*says:

"For example, approximately 10 million Sony batteries used in Dell, Sony,
Apple, Lenovo/IBM, Panasonic, Toshiba, Hitachi, Fujitsu and Sharp laptops
were recalled in 2006. The batteries were found to be susceptible to
internal contamination by metal particles. Under some circumstances, these
particles can pierce the separator, causing the cell to short. The cell will
begin to rapidly convert all of its energy into heat. This creates an
exothermic oxidizing reaction, causing the temperature to a few hundred
degrees Celsius in a fraction of a second.[81] A chain reaction occurs when
neighboring cells heat up, and in some cases, causes the battery to ignite."

So, not ALL the kinks have been worked out with LiOn batteries, but I'd
still prefer them for the power-to-weight ration in any hand powered tool
with one exception.

All that said, I often still prefer to use devices that accept standard
battery sizes so I can buy and charge my own NiMH cells. *Not as convenient
as built-in lithium ion batteries, but a certain class of items, like
cameras, MP3 players, etc. it's nice to be able to buy batteries when away
from a charger or carry ready spares.

--
Bobby G.

Li Ion is great , but do they last more than 4-5 years. I have all
Nicad and some 20 years old that still work a bit. LiIon I dont
believe from what I have read have the longevity.

"ransley" wrote in message
...
On Apr 1, 2:20 am, "Robert Green" wrote:
"ransley" wrote in message

...
On Mar 31, 6:22 pm, Anthona wrote:

stuff snipped

Li Ion is great , but do they last more than 4-5 years. I have all
Nicad and some 20 years old that still work a bit. LiIon I dont
believe from what I have read have the longevity.

In my view, longevity at half power is mostly worthless. Who hasn't had a
drill or some other tool conk out prematurely because of bad batteries only
to find that the replacement batteries cost more than the original tool and
TWO sets of batteries!!?

I have one set of tools, Skil Flexicharge power screwdrivers, that run on 3
easy to access and replace NiCad cells. In fairly regular use, I have to
dispose of the 3 cell packs after three years.

If the timer I use to limit overcharging fails, (or I fail to set it
correctly) they die much more quickly. Since I have 5 of them, all taking
the same chargers and holders, they were worth keeping running, even with
NiCads. But the units came with a wall holder/charger that would quickly
ruin the batteries if you didn't unplug the unit at the wall. It was
designed to fail, endlessly trickle charging a NiCad battery. The
suggestion was clear, that you keep it plugged in all the time and buy new
packs every sixth months or so, because treated that way, they packs seldom
lasted longer.

Since the replacement packs cost $12, I don't even rebuild them anymore.
It's not worth the time. But I do keep the good cells because it's usually
only one cell in a pack that fails and as you point out, they may still be
useful when I can no longer acquire new packs from Skil and have no choice
but to roll my own.

My IRobot Roomba Dirt Dog charging base is the same way. Leave it plugged
in an ready all the time, and eventually cells only hold enough charge to
clean for 5 minutes instead of an hour, even though the charge light showed
green. I have one pack that's completely ruined as a result of just being
on standby charge for less than a year.

--
Bobby G.

On Sun, 4 Apr 2010 08:49:10 -0400, "Robert Green"
wrote:

"ransley" wrote in message
...
On Apr 1, 2:20 am, "Robert Green" wrote:
"ransley" wrote in message

...
On Mar 31, 6:22 pm, Anthona wrote:

stuff snipped

Li Ion is great , but do they last more than 4-5 years. I have all
Nicad and some 20 years old that still work a bit. LiIon I dont
believe from what I have read have the longevity.

In my view, longevity at half power is mostly worthless. Who hasn't had a
drill or some other tool conk out prematurely because of bad batteries only
to find that the replacement batteries cost more than the original tool and
TWO sets of batteries!!?

Often. I have a couple of Dewalt drills that I bought because the batteries
were cheaper than the drill + charger + batteries. I didn't need the drill,
but why not when it was free? BTW, most batteries can be rebuilt easily, at a
reasonable cost.

...

I have a model 2207 3.6v SKIL Twist Cordless Screw Driver with a battery
pack that won't
run the driver. Charging only makes the pack feel warm. No load voltage
measures 4.034 volts.
Souinds like you folks have succeeded in opening the SKIL battery pack
to replace the three NiCd cells
and reuse the battery pack? Replacement cost for battery is $25
including shipping. I have tried but cannot see how to open the pack.


I sure could use some suggestions.


Did I read correctly that you attach external wires to the SKIL driver
and run the driver from an external battery pack which does not slide
into the housing?

Many thanks, Dave_s


Robert Green wrote:
"ransley" wrote in message
...
On Apr 1, 2:20 am, "Robert Green" wrote:
"ransley" wrote in message

...
On Mar 31, 6:22 pm, Anthona wrote:

stuff snipped

Li Ion is great , but do they last more than 4-5 years. I have all
Nicad and some 20 years old that still work a bit. LiIon I dont
believe from what I have read have the longevity.

In my view, longevity at half power is mostly worthless. Who hasn't had a
drill or some other tool conk out prematurely because of bad batteries only
to find that the replacement batteries cost more than the original tool and
TWO sets of batteries!!?

I have one set of tools, Skil Flexicharge power screwdrivers, that run on 3
easy to access and replace NiCad cells. In fairly regular use, I have to
dispose of the 3 cell packs after three years.

If the timer I use to limit overcharging fails, (or I fail to set it
correctly) they die much more quickly. Since I have 5 of them, all taking
the same chargers and holders, they were worth keeping running, even with
NiCads. But the units came with a wall holder/charger that would quickly
ruin the batteries if you didn't unplug the unit at the wall. It was
designed to fail, endlessly trickle charging a NiCad battery. The
suggestion was clear, that you keep it plugged in all the time and buy new
packs every sixth months or so, because treated that way, they packs seldom
lasted longer.

Since the replacement packs cost $12, I don't even rebuild them anymore.
It's not worth the time. But I do keep the good cells because it's usually
only one cell in a pack that fails and as you point out, they may still be
useful when I can no longer acquire new packs from Skil and have no choice
but to roll my own.

My IRobot Roomba Dirt Dog charging base is the same way. Leave it plugged
in an ready all the time, and eventually cells only hold enough charge to
clean for 5 minutes instead of an hour, even though the charge light showed
green. I have one pack that's completely ruined as a result of just being
on standby charge for less than a year.

--
Bobby G.

"Dave_s" wrote in message
...
I have a model 2207 3.6v SKIL Twist Cordless Screw Driver with a battery
pack that won't
run the driver. Charging only makes the pack feel warm. No load voltage
measures 4.034 volts.
Souinds like you folks have succeeded in opening the SKIL battery pack
to replace the three NiCd cells
and reuse the battery pack? Replacement cost for battery is $25
including shipping. I have tried but cannot see how to open the pack.

These are 3.6V units and can leave the charger as hot as 4.3V. Your voltage
sounds as though the pack is still good.

This model of screwdriver is infamous for its bad battery contacts deep
within the guts of the screwdriver (I own many which is why I know).

Look down the insides of the unit with the pack out and try to see whether
the two spring terminals are clear of corrosion. I'll bet there's plenty.
I often have enough crud on the contacts to make a brand new pack appear
bad. They are very hard to clean (I use a Dremel grinding head mounted on
the end of a dowel and do it manually) but they *are* cleanable, eventually.
If the collet lock is off, and the battery reads over 4VDC, then you
*should* have some sort of reaction from the drill. Since that doesn't seem
to be your case, I'd vote strongly for the corroded contacts as the first
place to look.

You could take the unit apart to clean the contacts, but there's an enormous
number of gears, rings, plates, etc. that tend to fall out and become very
difficult to reassemble. I would try very hard to clean it without taking
it apart.

I've even taken to gluing small strips of sandpaper on a dead pack, right on
top of the battery contacts. Inserting the "sandpaper enhanced" pack and
removing in a few dozen times often cleans the contacts enough to put you
back in business.

If you are convinced it's the battery, you twist off the cap with the red
"ears" - it's like a bayonnet lock, and the batteries slide out very nicely.
It's one of the easiest packs I've run across for rebuilding, although at
$12 a pack from Ebay, I have little incentive to "roll my own" anymore.

The Skil 2207 is a great screwdriver - fits well in the hand, has a single
pushbutton for forward and reverse, a collet lock and enough power to do the
job without shredding the screwhead. I've bought a lot of other power
screwdrivers, but none has measured up to the Skil.

--
Bobby G.

Bobby G.,

I sure will try each and every thing you suggested!!!!!
Interesting that the battery pack is still possibly usable.
Many thanks.
Dave_s



Robert Green wrote:
"Dave_s" wrote in message
...
I have a model 2207 3.6v SKIL Twist Cordless Screw Driver with a battery
pack that won't
run the driver. Charging only makes the pack feel warm. No load voltage
measures 4.034 volts.
Souinds like you folks have succeeded in opening the SKIL battery pack
to replace the three NiCd cells
and reuse the battery pack? Replacement cost for battery is $25
including shipping. I have tried but cannot see how to open the pack.

These are 3.6V units and can leave the charger as hot as 4.3V. Your voltage
sounds as though the pack is still good.

This model of screwdriver is infamous for its bad battery contacts deep
within the guts of the screwdriver (I own many which is why I know).

Look down the insides of the unit with the pack out and try to see whether
the two spring terminals are clear of corrosion. I'll bet there's plenty.
I often have enough crud on the contacts to make a brand new pack appear
bad. They are very hard to clean (I use a Dremel grinding head mounted on
the end of a dowel and do it manually) but they *are* cleanable, eventually.
If the collet lock is off, and the battery reads over 4VDC, then you
*should* have some sort of reaction from the drill. Since that doesn't seem
to be your case, I'd vote strongly for the corroded contacts as the first
place to look.

You could take the unit apart to clean the contacts, but there's an enormous
number of gears, rings, plates, etc. that tend to fall out and become very
difficult to reassemble. I would try very hard to clean it without taking
it apart.

I've even taken to gluing small strips of sandpaper on a dead pack, right on
top of the battery contacts. Inserting the "sandpaper enhanced" pack and
removing in a few dozen times often cleans the contacts enough to put you
back in business.

If you are convinced it's the battery, you twist off the cap with the red
"ears" - it's like a bayonnet lock, and the batteries slide out very nicely.
It's one of the easiest packs I've run across for rebuilding, although at
$12 a pack from Ebay, I have little incentive to "roll my own" anymore.

The Skil 2207 is a great screwdriver - fits well in the hand, has a single
pushbutton for forward and reverse, a collet lock and enough power to do the
job without shredding the screwhead. I've bought a lot of other power
screwdrivers, but none has measured up to the Skil.

--
Bobby G.

Robert Green wrote:
"Dave_s" wrote in message
...
I have a model 2207 3.6v SKIL Twist Cordless Screw Driver with a battery
pack that won't
run the driver. Charging only makes the pack feel warm. No load voltage
measures 4.034 volts.
Souinds like you folks have succeeded in opening the SKIL battery pack
to replace the three NiCd cells
and reuse the battery pack? Replacement cost for battery is $25
including shipping. I have tried but cannot see how to open the pack.

These are 3.6V units and can leave the charger as hot as 4.3V. Your voltage
sounds as though the pack is still good.

This model of screwdriver is infamous for its bad battery contacts deep
within the guts of the screwdriver (I own many which is why I know).

If you can give me an estimate of the current drawn by screw driver, I
can measure the battery voltage while drawing that current.

Does the screw driver draw approximately 1/2, 1 or 2 AMPS while
driving a screw (under load)? I can how much the 4.0 volts drops under load.

Thanks, Dave_s

--
Bobby G.

Robert Green wrote:
"Dave_s" wrote in message
...
I have a model 2207 3.6v SKIL Twist Cordless Screw Driver with a battery
pack that won't
run the driver. Charging only makes the pack feel warm. No load voltage
measures 4.034 volts.
Souinds like you folks have succeeded in opening the SKIL battery pack
to replace the three NiCd cells
and reuse the battery pack? Replacement cost for battery is $25
including shipping. I have tried but cannot see how to open the pack.

These are 3.6V units and can leave the charger as hot as 4.3V. Your voltage
sounds as though the pack is still good.

This model of screwdriver is infamous for its bad battery contacts deep
within the guts of the screwdriver (I own many which is why I know).

If you can give me an estimate of the current drawn by screw driver, I
can measure the battery voltage while drawing that current.

Does the screw driver draw approximately 1/2, 1 or 2 AMPS while
driving a screw (under load)? I can measure how much the 4.0 volts drops
under load.

Thanks, Dave_s

--
Bobby G.

"Dave_s" wrote in message
...

stuff snipped

Did I read correctly that you attach external wires to the SKIL driver
and run the driver from an external battery pack which does not slide
into the housing?

I have done that with the B&D Firestorm drill power packs, not the Skil.
The drill is designed so that cutting the pack open and removing the
batteries gives you a good platform to attach a 12V gel cell and doesn't
change the balance of the drill much.

I suppose you could do the same with the Skil powerdriver, but it would make
it pretty awkward to use.

I rebuilt the NiCad pack *once* only to discover that the center battery
kept failing because it would overheat during charging. Instead of wasting
my time rebuilding it again, I cut away the batteries, saved the good ones
and attached the 12V gel cell to the remaining bottom plate of the old NiCad
pack. Cost a lot less than buying a new pack (about 25% of the cost of a
new pack) and have lasted way longer. I first used Velcro to attach the
battery to the battery pack plate until one fell off and hit my foot. Now I
strap them to the platform with large hose clamps. (-:

The design of the Firestorm battery pack (and many other drill packs that
bury a cell inside ring of cells) is faulty so there was no point in
continuing to try to rebuild packs that would only last through a few
chargings. The drills come with fast chargers that really heat up the pack.
I suspect a slow charger wouldn't kill the center cell as quickly because it
would be able to shed charging heat a little better.

It's a great way to use up what's left of a UPS battery that's not really
dead, but "rejected" by the UPS for being slightly too low in voltage. The
Firestorms run on 9.6V but have a variable power trigger so you can run them
from 12V without motor damage if you don't bear down all the way on the
trigger switch.

--
Bobby G.