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Bloom Energy on 60 Minutes
Did anyone else here see the 60 Minutes segment last night on Bloom
Energy? They are a CA based start-up company that is supposed to have a revolutionary fuel cell technology that is simple and cost effective. They showed a cube that was maybe 6" on each side and said that it was sufficient to power a house. It runs off nat gas, methane, possibly other carbon based fuels. The goal of the company is to have one in each house, business, etc and eliminate the distribution grid. The company has about $100mil backing from Perkins-Elmer, the well known venture capital firm and will need around $400mil to get it into full development. As usual, their was a lot of missing information. Like at today's rates, what does the nat gas cost compared to an electric bill for the same amount of energy. Or what kind of greenhouse gases does it emit. The founder came off as a nut at one point when he stated his goal was to have every house using one of these within 5 to 10 years. They have a website at Bloomenergy.com, but I don't think there is much info there. If you want to see the actual 60 mins video you can probably find it with google. On the other hand they showed real refrigerator size units being test run by companies like FedEx. The home size unit was anticipated to sell for $3000. |
Bloom Energy on 60 Minutes
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Bloom Energy on 60 Minutes
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Bloom Energy on 60 Minutes
On Feb 22, 6:31*am, wrote:
On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 06:17:42 -0800 (PST), wrote: Did anyone else here see the 60 Minutes segment last night on Bloom Energy? * They are a CA based start-up company that is supposed to have a revolutionary fuel cell technology that is simple and cost effective. * They showed a cube that was maybe 6" on each side and said that it was sufficient to power a house. * It runs off nat gas, methane, possibly other carbon based fuels. * The goal of the company is to have one in each house, business, etc and eliminate the distribution grid. The company has about $100mil backing from Perkins-Elmer, the well known venture capital firm and will need around $400mil to get it into full development. * As usual, their was a lot of missing information. * Like at today's rates, what does the nat gas cost compared to an electric bill for the same amount of energy. *Or what kind of greenhouse gases does it emit. * The founder came off as a nut at one point when he stated his goal was to have every house using one of these within 5 to 10 years. They have a website at Bloomenergy.com, but I don't think there is much info there. * If you want to see the actual 60 mins video you can probably find it with google. On the other hand they showed real refrigerator size units being test run by companies like FedEx. * The home size unit was anticipated to sell for $3000. He's got a substantial resume that seems to indicate he's probably not a nut. He may be a bit overly excited about the prospects, but that's part of convincing others to invest. I didn't listen super carefully, I was fixing a doorknob. Plus I got a bit too excited 20 years ago with the "cold fusion" thing. There are more than a few companies (Seimens, GE, and smaller ones too) working on fuel cells. My limited experience with fuel cells (the ME dept down the hall was testing a number of them) is that they are (were 5 years ago) about 10x more expensive per kwatt than a "not particularly" cheap micro turbine combustor / genset. I'd agree with sa's assessment. Did anyone catch a conversion efficiency number? ie Percent electrical energy compared to nat gas input energy? cheers Bob |
Bloom Energy on 60 Minutes
On Feb 22, 8:17*am, wrote:
Did anyone else here see the 60 Minutes segment last night on Bloom Energy? * They are a CA based start-up company that is supposed to have a revolutionary fuel cell technology that is simple and cost effective. * They showed a cube that was maybe 6" on each side and said that it was sufficient to power a house. * It runs off nat gas, methane, possibly other carbon based fuels. * The goal of the company is to have one in each house, business, etc and eliminate the distribution grid. The company has about $100mil backing from Perkins-Elmer, the well known venture capital firm and will need around $400mil to get it into full development. * As usual, their was a lot of missing information. * Like at today's rates, what does the nat gas cost compared to an electric bill for the same amount of energy. *Or what kind of greenhouse gases does it emit. * The founder came off as a nut at one point when he stated his goal was to have every house using one of these within 5 to 10 years. They have a website at Bloomenergy.com, but I don't think there is much info there. * If you want to see the actual 60 mins video you can probably find it with google. On the other hand they showed real refrigerator size units being test run by companies like FedEx. * The home size unit was anticipated to sell for $3000. I would take one, 20 big companies in CA are testing them, a few are Walmart, Fedex Google,Ebay . John Donahoe Ceo of Ebay said they have saved 100,000.00 in electric costs in the 9 months 5 boxes have been running. But how long do they last. They are being tested now and working well, but you need 20-30 years of reliable running to make the investment worth while. So they will be sold more and more, but longevity wont be known for a long long time.If priced right with something like a 3 yr payback it would be worth it. We have plenty of Ng to power them and its cheaper then the "commercial" electric rate Ebay pays. |
Bloom Energy on 60 Minutes
DD_BobK wrote:
On Feb 22, 6:31 am, wrote: On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 06:17:42 -0800 (PST), wrote: Did anyone else here see the 60 Minutes segment last night on Bloom Energy? They are a CA based start-up company that is supposed to have a revolutionary fuel cell technology that is simple and cost effective. They showed a cube that was maybe 6" on each side and said that it was sufficient to power a house. It runs off nat gas, methane, possibly other carbon based fuels. The goal of the company is to have one in each house, business, etc and eliminate the distribution grid. The company has about $100mil backing from Perkins-Elmer, the well known venture capital firm and will need around $400mil to get it into full development. As usual, their was a lot of missing information. Like at today's rates, what does the nat gas cost compared to an electric bill for the same amount of energy. Or what kind of greenhouse gases does it emit. The founder came off as a nut at one point when he stated his goal was to have every house using one of these within 5 to 10 years. They have a website at Bloomenergy.com, but I don't think there is much info there. If you want to see the actual 60 mins video you can probably find it with google. On the other hand they showed real refrigerator size units being test run by companies like FedEx. The home size unit was anticipated to sell for $3000. He's got a substantial resume that seems to indicate he's probably not a nut. He may be a bit overly excited about the prospects, but that's part of convincing others to invest. I didn't listen super carefully, I was fixing a doorknob. Plus I got a bit too excited 20 years ago with the "cold fusion" thing. There are more than a few companies (Seimens, GE, and smaller ones too) working on fuel cells. My limited experience with fuel cells (the ME dept down the hall was testing a number of them) is that they are (were 5 years ago) about 10x more expensive per kwatt than a "not particularly" cheap micro turbine combustor / genset. I'd agree with sa's assessment. Did anyone catch a conversion efficiency number? ie Percent electrical energy compared to nat gas input energy? cheers Bob Yes they did, about 50% of conventional use. Half of what a propane generator would take. -- LSMFT |
Bloom Energy on 60 Minutes
ransley wrote:
.... I would take one, 20 big companies in CA are testing them, a few are Walmart, Fedex Google,Ebay . John Donahoe Ceo of Ebay said they have saved 100,000.00 in electric costs in the 9 months 5 boxes have been running. But how long do they last. They are being tested now and working well, but you need 20-30 years of reliable running to make the investment worth while. Those two don't seem to compute -- who paid the upfront cost for these test units and is that incorporated in the $100k number? I'd think it's more like simply the difference in what they paid in fuel costs over the time period, not total cost??? .... longevity wont be known for a long long time.If priced right with something like a 3 yr payback it would be worth it. We have plenty of Ng to power them and its cheaper then the "commercial" electric rate Ebay pays. Stationary power generation imo is about the biggest waste of (increasingly limited) NG reserves as can be imagined. It's far more valuable in the big picture as a chemical feedstock, space heating and similar uses where there aren't other as viable alternatives. -- |
Bloom Energy on 60 Minutes
On Feb 22, 9:28*am, Robert Neville wrote:
wrote: The home size unit was anticipated to sell for $3000. You need to listen a little more critically - a home sized unit _needs_ to sell for $3K to be economical. No, YOU need to listen. The founder clearly stated that the home size unit would cost around $3000. That was the small unit. The current units sell for $750K Right and they are the LARGE test units which put out a lot more power than a home size unit and are being used by the likes of UPS. Do you think the AC unit a homeowner would use costs the same as the one for the FedEx building? who want to brag about how green they are I didn't here any bragging about being green. In particular, there was no mention of how much greenhouse gasses they do or do not emit. and are only being installed because state and local tax credits cover half the cost. That's not free money - that's taxes being paid by Joe and Josepine Homeowner. No **** Sherlock. No one ever said it was free money. And to be economically viable long term, they do have to be able to stand on their own. Right now they are being hand built, one a day. There are serious doubts that Bloom will ever get them into mass production at anything close to the target cost. There are always going to be doubts. If that was the standard by which we dismiss things, we's have no automobiles or airplanes. The fact that Perkins-Elmer, a venture capital firm that knows technology and after doing due diligence, is willing to put $100mil into it, says they believe it will have commercial viability. That doesn't mean it will work. But it also means this isn't some small mysterious company making outrageous claims that no one with experience and credibility has checked out before giving them $100mil. |
Bloom Energy on 60 Minutes
first,who believes anything 60 Minutes has to say? They have no credibility;remember the Bush memos and Dan Rather. 2nd,remember that the fuel cells need power inverters (more conversion losses) to turn the DC into AC. They have the potential to fail,and then you need a new high power inverter. It won't be a simple repair of the existing inverter. (and what happens after a lightning strike? how much of YOUR plant goes 'poof'?) Repairs will be at YOUR expense. and you still have a distribution network;it's either gas pipeline or delivery trucks. -- Jim Yanik jyanik at localnet dot com |
Bloom Energy on 60 Minutes
On Feb 22, 10:30*am, Jim Yanik wrote:
first,who believes anything 60 Minutes has to say? They have no credibility;remember the Bush memos and Dan Rather. 2nd,remember that the fuel cells need power inverters (more conversion losses) to turn the DC into AC. They have the potential to fail,and then you need a new high power inverter. It won't be a simple repair of the existing inverter. (and what happens after a lightning strike? how much of YOUR plant goes 'poof'?) Repairs will be at YOUR expense. and you still have a distribution network;it's either gas pipeline or delivery trucks. -- Jim Yanik jyanik at localnet dot com You think you know so much, you should call Google, Ebay, Walmart, Fedex, and tell them they are idiots. |
Bloom Energy on 60 Minutes
On Feb 22, 11:30*am, Jim Yanik wrote:
first,who believes anything 60 Minutes has to say? They have no credibility;remember the Bush memos and Dan Rather. 2nd,remember that the fuel cells need power inverters (more conversion losses) to turn the DC into AC. Sure there are conversion losses in an inverter. But there are also losses in getting power from a plant in Ohio to my home here in NJ. They have the potential to fail,and then you need a new high power inverter. It won't be a simple repair of the existing inverter. (and what happens after a lightning strike? how much of YOUR plant goes 'poof'?) Repairs will be at YOUR expense. The same things could be said for the AC units, high efficiency furnaces or LCD TV's that are widespread today. Does that mean they are all not viable too? and you still have a distribution network;it's either gas pipeline or delivery trucks. -- Jim Yanik jyanik at localnet dot com |
Bloom Energy on 60 Minutes
Jim Yanik wrote:
first,who believes anything 60 Minutes has to say? They have no credibility;remember the Bush memos and Dan Rather. 2nd,remember that the fuel cells need power inverters (more conversion losses) to turn the DC into AC. They have the potential to fail,and then you need a new high power inverter. It won't be a simple repair of the existing inverter. (and what happens after a lightning strike? how much of YOUR plant goes 'poof'?) Repairs will be at YOUR expense. and you still have a distribution network;it's either gas pipeline or delivery trucks. Many large companies are already using them. Google, ebay, etc. |
Bloom Energy on 60 Minutes
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Bloom Energy on 60 Minutes
On Feb 22, 8:17*am, wrote:
snip The company has about $100mil backing from Perkins-Elmer, the well known venture capital firm snip People at Perkin-Elmer back East will be surprised to learn that they are venture capitalists, since they have only been making scientific instruments for many decades. On the other hand, Kleiner, Caulfield, Perkins and Byers in the West may be miffed for not getting credit for their savvy investments in risky high tech ventures. Just for the record... Joe |
Bloom Energy on 60 Minutes
On Feb 22, 12:17*pm, wrote:
On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 08:37:08 -0800 (PST), ransley wrote: You think you know so much, you should call Google, Ebay, Walmart, Fedex, and tell them they are idiots. These companies often do things like this for the tax write *off and the PR value, even when it doesn't make financial sense in conventional terms BTW solar may actually be making sense now days but only because of the taxpayer subsidizing the installation. I am currently looking at a grid tie PV array for about $1.25 a watt installed. That gets my payback in the 4-5 year time frame, something that is attractive. Of course the plan is really unsustainable in any large scale or even particularly fair, though because the burden gets thrown back on the taxpayer, even if they chose not to participate. I traded in a clunker too, thanks suckers! 4-5 year is great, what system, what tax credits. Germany has a major solar program most everyone particpates in, but not here in the US |
Bloom Energy on 60 Minutes
LSMFT wrote in :
Jim Yanik wrote: first,who believes anything 60 Minutes has to say? They have no credibility;remember the Bush memos and Dan Rather. 2nd,remember that the fuel cells need power inverters (more conversion losses) to turn the DC into AC. They have the potential to fail,and then you need a new high power inverter. It won't be a simple repair of the existing inverter. (and what happens after a lightning strike? how much of YOUR plant goes 'poof'?) Repairs will be at YOUR expense. and you still have a distribution network;it's either gas pipeline or delivery trucks. Many large companies are already using them. Google, ebay, etc. Is anything I said incorrect? LARGE companies can afford them,and have gas supplies at hand. Knowing Google,I would not be surprised to find they are paying more to run them than for utility power. -- Jim Yanik jyanik at localnet dot com |
Bloom Energy on 60 Minutes
LSMFT wrote in :
wrote: Did anyone else here see the 60 Minutes segment last night on Bloom Energy? They are a CA based start-up company that is supposed to have a revolutionary fuel cell technology that is simple and cost effective. They showed a cube that was maybe 6" on each side and said that it was sufficient to power a house. It runs off nat gas, methane, possibly other carbon based fuels. The goal of the company is to have one in each house, business, etc and eliminate the distribution grid. That 6" cube doesn't include the power converters to change DC to AC,nor any regulators and safety devices that may be needed. and what happens if the fuel cell has a problem? Or your inverter dies? YOU will be the one paying for repairs. The company has about $100mil backing from Perkins-Elmer, the well known venture capital firm and will need around $400mil to get it into full development. As usual, their was a lot of missing information. Like at today's rates, what does the nat gas cost compared to an electric bill for the same amount of energy. Or what kind of greenhouse gases does it emit. The founder came off as a nut at one point when he stated his goal was to have every house using one of these within 5 to 10 years. They have a website at Bloomenergy.com, but I don't think there is much info there. If you want to see the actual 60 mins video you can probably find it with google. On the other hand they showed real refrigerator size units being test run by companies like FedEx. The home size unit was anticipated to sell for $3000. It's a good thing they kept it secret until they had actual deployments of running systems. Otherwise they would have been put down by skeptics and naysayers and no investments would have been made and nothing developed. That is why there is very little innovation any more; skeptics galore. There are skeptics because there are plenty of scammers out there. Also those who don't disclose the ENTIRE system,what other gear is necessary,what other expenses an operator can expect to have. the FULL costs,the bottom line. -- Jim Yanik jyanik at localnet dot com |
Bloom Energy on 60 Minutes
Robert Neville wrote the following:
wrote: You need to listen a little more critically - a home sized unit _needs_ to sell for $3K to be economical. The current units sell for $750K who want to brag about how green they are and are only being installed because state and local tax credits cover half the cost. That's not free money - that's taxes being paid by Joe and Josepine Homeowner. I'm not Joe or Josephine homeowner, but I do pay taxes that go for things that do not benefit me.. I pay school taxes and do not have any kids in school. I pay a surcharge on my auto registration for the MTA (NY Metropolitan Transit Authority), although I do not use the MTA. Part of my taxes go for welfare, although I have never been on welfare. There are many other things that I pay taxes for that do not benefit me. Right now they are being hand built, one a day. There are serious doubts that Bloom will ever get them into mass production at anything close to the target cost. Do not underestimate US technology and manufacturing. -- Bill In Hamptonburgh, NY In the original Orange County. Est. 1683 To email, remove the double zeroes after @ |
Bloom Energy on 60 Minutes
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Bloom Energy on 60 Minutes
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Bloom Energy on 60 Minutes
Jim Yanik wrote:
wrote in : wrote: Did anyone else here see the 60 Minutes segment last night on Bloom Energy? They are a CA based start-up company that is supposed to have a revolutionary fuel cell technology that is simple and cost effective. They showed a cube that was maybe 6" on each side and said that it was sufficient to power a house. It runs off nat gas, methane, possibly other carbon based fuels. The goal of the company is to have one in each house, business, etc and eliminate the distribution grid. That 6" cube doesn't include the power converters to change DC to AC,nor any regulators and safety devices that may be needed. and what happens if the fuel cell has a problem? Or your inverter dies? YOU will be the one paying for repairs. The company has about $100mil backing from Perkins-Elmer, the well known venture capital firm and will need around $400mil to get it into full development. As usual, their was a lot of missing information. Like at today's rates, what does the nat gas cost compared to an electric bill for the same amount of energy. Or what kind of greenhouse gases does it emit. The founder came off as a nut at one point when he stated his goal was to have every house using one of these within 5 to 10 years. They have a website at Bloomenergy.com, but I don't think there is much info there. If you want to see the actual 60 mins video you can probably find it with google. On the other hand they showed real refrigerator size units being test run by companies like FedEx. The home size unit was anticipated to sell for $3000. It's a good thing they kept it secret until they had actual deployments of running systems. Otherwise they would have been put down by skeptics and naysayers and no investments would have been made and nothing developed. That is why there is very little innovation any more; skeptics galore. There are skeptics because there are plenty of scammers out there. Also those who don't disclose the ENTIRE system,what other gear is necessary,what other expenses an operator can expect to have. the FULL costs,the bottom line. They either work for the oil companies or are damn stupid. |
Bloom Energy on 60 Minutes
On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 17:56:22 -0500, Frank
wrote: On 2/22/2010 9:17 AM, wrote: Did anyone else here see the 60 Minutes segment last night on Bloom Energy? They are a CA based start-up company that is supposed to have a revolutionary fuel cell technology that is simple and cost effective. They showed a cube that was maybe 6" on each side and said that it was sufficient to power a house. It runs off nat gas, methane, possibly other carbon based fuels. The goal of the company is to have one in each house, business, etc and eliminate the distribution grid. The company has about $100mil backing from Perkins-Elmer, the well known venture capital firm and will need around $400mil to get it into full development. As usual, their was a lot of missing information. Like at today's rates, what does the nat gas cost compared to an electric bill for the same amount of energy. Or what kind of greenhouse gases does it emit. The founder came off as a nut at one point when he stated his goal was to have every house using one of these within 5 to 10 years. They have a website at Bloomenergy.com, but I don't think there is much info there. If you want to see the actual 60 mins video you can probably find it with google. On the other hand they showed real refrigerator size units being test run by companies like FedEx. The home size unit was anticipated to sell for $3000. Maybe, but I've heard the only reliable fuel cells run on hydrogen and major company working on figured at least 10 years before they had a commercial product that was cheap and reliable. The cells would be small and portable and could power your house or car. There has been considerable R&D on these and I'd have a wait and see on these guys. Several public schools in my state CURRENTLY have operating hydrogen fuel cells making a large portion of their power. |
Bloom Energy on 60 Minutes
LSMFT wrote:
.... They are a DIFFERENT kind of fuel cell, not the kind you know. I guess everybody missed that. Which, of course, is part of the problem -- they've let precious little actual information other than hype and generalities out. Here's the most detail I've ever seen and it's of very little actual use in understanding what's going on for either a material or energy balance. One thing I've found most interesting is that having spent a considerable fraction of career in R&D targetted to the generation utilities via EPRI this outfit while based quite close to EPRI headquarters has been resolutely adamant about approaching them for either funding or for demonstration/pilot studies. Perhaps w/ the principal's primary previous sugar daddy having been NASA he's simply unfamiliar w/ the commercial power folks but that would seem hard to do in Sunnyvale while EPRI's in Palo Alto unless is purposeful... -- |
Bloom Energy on 60 Minutes
dpb wrote:
LSMFT wrote: ... They are a DIFFERENT kind of fuel cell, not the kind you know. I guess everybody missed that. Which, of course, is part of the problem -- they've let precious little actual information other than hype and generalities out. Here's the most detail I've ever seen and it's of very little actual use in understanding what's going on for either a material or energy balance. .... Sorry, forgot the link...this predates the 60 Minutes piece; may be from whence they got the idea for the segment, who knows... http://www.businessweek.com/globalbiz/content/dec2009/gb2009127_746740_page_2.htm -- |
Bloom Energy on 60 Minutes
On Feb 22, 2:25*pm, Jim Yanik wrote:
LSMFT wrote : Jim Yanik wrote: first,who believes anything 60 Minutes has to say? They have no credibility;remember the Bush memos and Dan Rather. 2nd,remember that the fuel cells need power inverters (more conversion losses) to turn the DC into AC. They have the potential to fail,and then you need a new high power inverter. It won't be a simple repair of the existing inverter. (and what happens after a lightning strike? how much of YOUR plant goes 'poof'?) Repairs will be at YOUR expense. and you still have a distribution network;it's either gas pipeline or delivery trucks. Many large companies are already using them. Google, ebay, etc. Is anything I said incorrect? LARGE companies can afford them,and have gas supplies at hand. Knowing Google,I would not be surprised to find they are paying more to run them than for utility power. -- Jim Yanik jyanik at localnet dot com- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Ebays Ceo said they have saved 100,000 in 9 months with 5 units, not suprising considering on NGs lower cost |
Bloom Energy on 60 Minutes
ransley wrote:
.... Ebays Ceo said they have saved 100,000 in 9 months with 5 units, not suprising considering on NGs lower cost Again I'd ask -- does that cover cost of the units or simply the differential fuel cost? I gather the units were supplied by Bloom, not purchased but don't think it was said specifically. It's only what an actual commercial unit's amortized cost would be that would be significant in the long run; very few development demo projects are cost-effective overall because so much is written off as R&D expense by the developer of the technology. Is there any information that isn't so here, too???? -- |
Bloom Energy on 60 Minutes
wrote:
Did anyone else here see the 60 Minutes segment last night on Bloom Energy? They are a CA based start-up company that is supposed to have a revolutionary fuel cell technology that is simple and cost effective. They showed a cube that was maybe 6" on each side and said that it was sufficient to power a house. It runs off nat gas, methane, possibly other carbon based fuels. The goal of the company is to have one in each house, business, etc and eliminate the distribution grid. The company has about $100mil backing from Perkins-Elmer, the well known venture capital firm and will need around $400mil to get it into full development. As usual, their was a lot of missing information. Like at today's rates, what does the nat gas cost compared to an electric bill for the same amount of energy. Or what kind of greenhouse gases does it emit. The founder came off as a nut at one point when he stated his goal was to have every house using one of these within 5 to 10 years. They have a website at Bloomenergy.com, but I don't think there is much info there. If you want to see the actual 60 mins video you can probably find it with google. On the other hand they showed real refrigerator size units being test run by companies like FedEx. The home size unit was anticipated to sell for $3000. Here's a link to some folks who have been working on fuel cells for some time. The second link is to the folks who supplied fuel cells to NASA for spacecraft. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categor..._manufacturers http://www.utcpower.com/ TDD |
Bloom Energy on 60 Minutes
On Feb 22, 7:23*pm, dpb wrote:
ransley wrote: ... Ebays Ceo said they have saved 100,000 in 9 months with 5 units, not suprising considering on NGs lower cost Again I'd ask -- does that cover cost of the units or simply the differential fuel cost? *I gather the units were supplied by Bloom, not purchased but don't think it was said specifically. It's only what an actual commercial unit's amortized cost would be that would be significant in the long run; very few development demo projects are cost-effective overall because so much is written off as R&D expense by the developer of the technology. *Is there any information that isn't so here, too???? -- Looking at what I saw its made of isnt expensive, how long the unit lasts is unknown. I will be sold for more than its worth im sure |
Bloom Energy on 60 Minutes
wrote:
On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 17:56:22 -0500, Frank wrote: On 2/22/2010 9:17 AM, wrote: Did anyone else here see the 60 Minutes segment last night on Bloom Energy? They are a CA based start-up company that is supposed to have a revolutionary fuel cell technology that is simple and cost effective. They showed a cube that was maybe 6" on each side and said that it was sufficient to power a house. It runs off nat gas, methane, possibly other carbon based fuels. The goal of the company is to have one in each house, business, etc and eliminate the distribution grid. The company has about $100mil backing from Perkins-Elmer, the well known venture capital firm and will need around $400mil to get it into full development. As usual, their was a lot of missing information. Like at today's rates, what does the nat gas cost compared to an electric bill for the same amount of energy. Or what kind of greenhouse gases does it emit. The founder came off as a nut at one point when he stated his goal was to have every house using one of these within 5 to 10 years. They have a website at Bloomenergy.com, but I don't think there is much info there. If you want to see the actual 60 mins video you can probably find it with google. On the other hand they showed real refrigerator size units being test run by companies like FedEx. The home size unit was anticipated to sell for $3000. Maybe, but I've heard the only reliable fuel cells run on hydrogen and major company working on figured at least 10 years before they had a commercial product that was cheap and reliable. The cells would be small and portable and could power your house or car. There has been considerable R&D on these and I'd have a wait and see on these guys. Several public schools in my state CURRENTLY have operating hydrogen fuel cells making a large portion of their power. Where do they get the hydrogen? -- bud-- |
Bloom Energy on 60 Minutes
On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 19:23:49 -0600, dpb wrote:
ransley wrote: ... Ebays Ceo said they have saved 100,000 in 9 months with 5 units, not suprising considering on NGs lower cost Again I'd ask -- does that cover cost of the units or simply the differential fuel cost? I gather the units were supplied by Bloom, not purchased but don't think it was said specifically. It's only what an actual commercial unit's amortized cost would be that would be significant in the long run; very few development demo projects are cost-effective overall because so much is written off as R&D expense by the developer of the technology. Is there any information that isn't so here, too???? GM may have spent 1 million dollars on development, and prototypes of the Chevette, which when mass produced, sold for $2500 a copy. That $2000 even included a share of the massive advertising campaign that was used to promote them. The present Bloom units are handbuilt prototypes. |
Bloom Energy on 60 Minutes
LSMFT wrote in :
Jim Yanik wrote: wrote in : wrote: Did anyone else here see the 60 Minutes segment last night on Bloom Energy? They are a CA based start-up company that is supposed to have a revolutionary fuel cell technology that is simple and cost effective. They showed a cube that was maybe 6" on each side and said that it was sufficient to power a house. It runs off nat gas, methane, possibly other carbon based fuels. The goal of the company is to have one in each house, business, etc and eliminate the distribution grid. That 6" cube doesn't include the power converters to change DC to AC,nor any regulators and safety devices that may be needed. and what happens if the fuel cell has a problem? Or your inverter dies? YOU will be the one paying for repairs. The company has about $100mil backing from Perkins-Elmer, the well known venture capital firm and will need around $400mil to get it into full development. As usual, their was a lot of missing information. Like at today's rates, what does the nat gas cost compared to an electric bill for the same amount of energy. Or what kind of greenhouse gases does it emit. The founder came off as a nut at one point when he stated his goal was to have every house using one of these within 5 to 10 years. Oh,if a fuel cell uses hydrocarbon fuels(like propane or CNG),it's going to emit carbon,probably in the form of CO2 or CO. They have a website at Bloomenergy.com, but I don't think there is much info there. If you want to see the actual 60 mins video you can probably find it with google. On the other hand they showed real refrigerator size units being test run by companies like FedEx. The home size unit was anticipated to sell for $3000. It's a good thing they kept it secret until they had actual deployments of running systems. Otherwise they would have been put down by skeptics and naysayers and no investments would have been made and nothing developed. That is why there is very little innovation any more; skeptics galore. There are skeptics because there are plenty of scammers out there. Also those who don't disclose the ENTIRE system,what other gear is necessary,what other expenses an operator can expect to have. the FULL costs,the bottom line. They either work for the oil companies or are damn stupid. the stupid ones are those who blindly believe in anything that's on TV. (especially the deceptive 60 Minutes) Those who refuse to consider the FULL situation. -- Jim Yanik jyanik at localnet dot com |
Bloom Energy on 60 Minutes
LSMFT wrote in :
Frank wrote: Maybe, but I've heard the only reliable fuel cells run on hydrogen and major company working on figured at least 10 years before they had a commercial product that was cheap and reliable. The cells would be small and portable and could power your house or car. There has been considerable R&D on these and I'd have a wait and see on these guys. They are a DIFFERENT kind of fuel cell, not the kind you know. I guess everybody missed that. what happens to the CARBON in the hydrocarbon fuels? where does it end up? do you even know? -- Jim Yanik jyanik at localnet dot com |
Bloom Energy on 60 Minutes
ransley wrote:
On Feb 22, 7:23 pm, dpb wrote: ransley wrote: ... Ebays Ceo said they have saved 100,000 in 9 months with 5 units, not suprising considering on NGs lower cost Again I'd ask -- does that cover cost of the units or simply the differential fuel cost? I gather the units were supplied by Bloom, not purchased but don't think it was said specifically. It's only what an actual commercial unit's amortized cost would be that would be significant in the long run; very few development demo projects are cost-effective overall because so much is written off as R&D expense by the developer of the technology. Is there any information that isn't so here, too???? -- Looking at what I saw its made of isnt expensive, how long the unit lasts is unknown. I will be sold for more than its worth im sure The previously quoted $750K isn't what I'd call "inexpensive"... -- |
Bloom Energy on 60 Minutes
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Bloom Energy on 60 Minutes
On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 08:14:39 -0600, dpb wrote:
ransley wrote: -snip- Looking at what I saw its made of isnt expensive, how long the unit lasts is unknown. I will be sold for more than its worth im sure The previously quoted $750K isn't what I'd call "inexpensive"... If I remember all these numbers more or less correctly, and have done my math right- ebay? 5 units at $750K = $3750K Saved $100K /month. Payback 3 years. Might have been 'saved $100K in 3 months' - even at that a 9 year payback is pretty good. [better than what I've seen for wind & solar] Jim |
Bloom Energy on 60 Minutes
Jim Elbrecht wrote:
On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 08:14:39 -0600, dpb wrote: ransley wrote: -snip- Looking at what I saw its made of isnt expensive, how long the unit lasts is unknown. I will be sold for more than its worth im sure The previously quoted $750K isn't what I'd call "inexpensive"... If I remember all these numbers more or less correctly, and have done my math right- ebay? 5 units at $750K = $3750K Saved $100K /month. Payback 3 years. Might have been 'saved $100K in 3 months' - even at that a 9 year payback is pretty good. [better than what I've seen for wind & solar] Jim i think it was 100k in 9 months |
Bloom Energy on 60 Minutes
On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 06:47:28 -0800 (PST), DD_BobK wrote:
On Feb 22, 6:31Â*am, wrote: On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 06:17:42 -0800 (PST), wrote: Did anyone else here see the 60 Minutes segment last night on Bloom Energy? Â* They are a CA based start-up company that is supposed to have a revolutionary fuel cell technology that is simple and cost effective. Â* They showed a cube that was maybe 6" on each side and said that it was sufficient to power a house. Â* It runs off nat gas, methane, possibly other carbon based fuels. Â* The goal of the company is to have one in each house, business, etc and eliminate the distribution grid. The company has about $100mil backing from Perkins-Elmer, the well known venture capital firm and will need around $400mil to get it into full development. Â* As usual, their was a lot of missing information. Â* Like at today's rates, what does the nat gas cost compared to an electric bill for the same amount of energy. Â*Or what kind of greenhouse gases does it emit. Â* The founder came off as a nut at one point when he stated his goal was to have every house using one of these within 5 to 10 years. They have a website at Bloomenergy.com, but I don't think there is much info there. Â* If you want to see the actual 60 mins video you can probably find it with google. On the other hand they showed real refrigerator size units being test run by companies like FedEx. Â* The home size unit was anticipated to sell for $3000. He's got a substantial resume that seems to indicate he's probably not a nut. He may be a bit overly excited about the prospects, but that's part of convincing others to invest. I didn't listen super carefully, I was fixing a doorknob. Plus I got a bit too excited 20 years ago with the "cold fusion" thing. There are more than a few companies (Seimens, GE, and smaller ones too) working on fuel cells. My limited experience with fuel cells (the ME dept down the hall was testing a number of them) is that they are (were 5 years ago) about 10x more expensive per kwatt than a "not particularly" cheap micro turbine combustor / genset. I'd agree with sa's assessment. Did anyone catch a conversion efficiency number? ie Percent electrical energy compared to nat gas input energy? I was amused at the comparison to NASA. There are some major differences: 1) bloom uses cheap materials 2) bloom doesn't use aerospace quality fuel. How long before the unit cruds up to the point where it will no longer operate? Until somebody provides this data, bloom can be safely ignored. |
Bloom Energy on 60 Minutes
chaniarts wrote:
Jim Elbrecht wrote: On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 08:14:39 -0600, dpb wrote: ransley wrote: -snip- Looking at what I saw its made of isnt expensive, how long the unit lasts is unknown. I will be sold for more than its worth im sure The previously quoted $750K isn't what I'd call "inexpensive"... If I remember all these numbers more or less correctly, and have done my math right- ebay? 5 units at $750K = $3750K Saved $100K /month. Payback 3 years. Might have been 'saved $100K in 3 months' - even at that a 9 year payback is pretty good. [better than what I've seen for wind & solar] Jim i think it was 100k in 9 months That was the number ransley posted, anyway...perhaps commercially-produced units can have a payback, hard to guess from essentially no hard facts. And, of course, there's still the question of just what is the material balance of the process. If it's using NG, the C has to go somewhere. Is there air involved? If so, that's NOx also one would presume. And, again, imo, using NG for stationary power generation in large quantities is simply an asinine waste of it in comparison to its value as chemical feedstock, etc., etc., going into the future. -- |
Bloom Energy on 60 Minutes
On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 21:42:56 -0600, bud-- wrote:
wrote: On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 17:56:22 -0500, Frank wrote: On 2/22/2010 9:17 AM, wrote: Did anyone else here see the 60 Minutes segment last night on Bloom Energy? They are a CA based start-up company that is supposed to have a revolutionary fuel cell technology that is simple and cost effective. They showed a cube that was maybe 6" on each side and said that it was sufficient to power a house. It runs off nat gas, methane, possibly other carbon based fuels. The goal of the company is to have one in each house, business, etc and eliminate the distribution grid. The company has about $100mil backing from Perkins-Elmer, the well known venture capital firm and will need around $400mil to get it into full development. As usual, their was a lot of missing information. Like at today's rates, what does the nat gas cost compared to an electric bill for the same amount of energy. Or what kind of greenhouse gases does it emit. The founder came off as a nut at one point when he stated his goal was to have every house using one of these within 5 to 10 years. They have a website at Bloomenergy.com, but I don't think there is much info there. If you want to see the actual 60 mins video you can probably find it with google. On the other hand they showed real refrigerator size units being test run by companies like FedEx. The home size unit was anticipated to sell for $3000. Maybe, but I've heard the only reliable fuel cells run on hydrogen and major company working on figured at least 10 years before they had a commercial product that was cheap and reliable. The cells would be small and portable and could power your house or car. There has been considerable R&D on these and I'd have a wait and see on these guys. Several public schools in my state CURRENTLY have operating hydrogen fuel cells making a large portion of their power. Where do they get the hydrogen? It's exacted out of hundred dollar bills. |
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