The best way to think of it is that a load with a low power factor
will move a lot of electricity back-and-forth in the power lines
without actually consuming the energy. You get billed for the amount
of power the load uses, but a higher amount if moving back-and-forth,
and being disipated as heat in the power lines, transformers and so
on. So, there's a real cost to the electricity company, but it doens't
show on the meter. That's why larger industrial users with poor power
factors will be charged for it, and why some install local capacitors
to act as reservoirs to restrict the back-and-forth to their own
premises, thereby avoiding all the waste in the power transmission
system.

On 12/31/2009 11:05, Mike Granby wrote:

The best way to think of it is that a load with a low power factor
will move a lot of electricity back-and-forth in the power lines
without actually consuming the energy. You get billed for the amount
of power the load uses, but a higher amount if moving back-and-forth,
and being disipated as heat in the power lines, transformers and so
on. So, there's a real cost to the electricity company, but it doens't
show on the meter. That's why larger industrial users with poor power
factors will be charged for it, and why some install local capacitors
to act as reservoirs to restrict the back-and-forth to their own
premises, thereby avoiding all the waste in the power transmission
system.

The power companies install capacitors to introduce capacitive reactance
to bring the PF closer to unity in the upstream transmission lines.

On Dec 31, 11:50*am, George wrote:

The power companies install capacitors to introduce
capacitive reactance to bring the PF closer to unity in
the upstream transmission lines.

Way to take a simple explanation and make it complicated, George...

In ,
Mike Granby typed:
On Dec 31, 11:50 am, George wrote:

The power companies install capacitors to introduce
capacitive reactance to bring the PF closer to unity in
the upstream transmission lines.

Way to take a simple explanation and make it complicated, George...

Umm, haven't you ever noticed the large banks of capacitors housed outside
many industrial buildings? THOSE are the ones that are correcting for the PF
in that building. The power company does not correct for unknown power
factors and couldn't if it wanted to. I think you're misunderstanding the
purpose of whatever it is you're seeing that you think are cap banks.

Twayne


--
--
Cats land on their feet.
but Toast lands PB side down;
A cat glued to some jelly toast will
hover in quantum indecision forever.

Twayne wrote:
In ,
Mike Granby typed:
On Dec 31, 11:50 am, George wrote:

The power companies install capacitors to introduce
capacitive reactance to bring the PF closer to unity in
the upstream transmission lines.

Way to take a simple explanation and make it complicated, George...

Umm, haven't you ever noticed the large banks of capacitors housed
outside many industrial buildings? THOSE are the ones that are
correcting for the PF in that building. The power company does not
correct for unknown power factors and couldn't if it wanted to. I think
you're misunderstanding the purpose of whatever it is you're seeing that
you think are cap banks.


Don't know about where you live, but around here I often see racks of PF
correction caps on utility poles - 3 phase distribution voltage.
Utilities certainly DO install them. Utilities may also switch PF
correction caps [which can cause bad surges].

Another good post by George.
Another bad one by Twayne.

--
bud--

In ,
bud-- typed:
Twayne wrote:
In
,
Mike Granby typed:
On Dec 31, 11:50 am, George wrote:

The power companies install capacitors to introduce
capacitive reactance to bring the PF closer to unity in
the upstream transmission lines.

Way to take a simple explanation and make it complicated, George...

Umm, haven't you ever noticed the large banks of capacitors housed
outside many industrial buildings? THOSE are the ones that are
correcting for the PF in that building. The power company does not
correct for unknown power factors and couldn't if it wanted to. I
think you're misunderstanding the purpose of whatever it is you're
seeing that you think are cap banks.


Don't know about where you live, but around here I often see racks of
PF correction caps on utility poles - 3 phase distribution voltage.
Utilities certainly DO install them. Utilities may also switch PF
correction caps [which can cause bad surges].

Another good post by George.
Another bad one by Twayne.

Utilities -sometimes- may install them in certain areas, I don't know. I've
never seen it in Coronado, San Diego, Chicago, Aspen, Fort Worth, St. Louis,
Boca Raton, or upsate NY and NYC. Anymore it's all underground anyway except
for smaller cities and rural areas. I've seen a lot of things on power
poles but never a capacitor bank.
Once the plans are approved for their installation by the powerco, a
contractor installs them any where I've ever been. Then they're inspected by
the powerco if it's a big system and they go into use. One of the things
you do often see on a power pole is a repeater for sending the RF received
electrical usage down down the hi-voltage wires for charging for power
purposes.

I'd appreciate it if you could find a URL or similar source to verify that
they'll put capacitor banks on a power pole. You do realize how much even
small ones weigh, don't you? And what the value of "small" would be? I'm
guessing you don't, but it's easy to calculate. Actually I'm wondering now
if you would even recognize a capacitor bank as capacitors anyway.
But, if I'm wrong, I'd certainly like to see some evidence of it.

Twayne
--
Often you'll find excellent advice on a newsgroup.
Before you use that advice though, consider the
ramifications of it being wrong or even dangerous;
how important IS that to you?
ALWAYS verify and confirm ANY advice from a
newsgroup!

Twayne wrote:

I'd appreciate it if you could find a URL or similar source to verify
that they'll put capacitor banks on a power pole. You do realize how
much even small ones weigh, don't you? And what the value of "small"
would be? I'm guessing you don't, but it's easy to calculate.
Actually I'm wondering now if you would even recognize a capacitor
bank as capacitors anyway. But, if I'm wrong, I'd certainly like to
see some evidence of it.

Out of some 16,000 hits on "capacitor+bank+power+poles" here's the first -
complete with pictures:

http://www.nepsi.com/ptcb.htm

Here's a brochure (PDF) with really colorful pictures (suitable for framing)
http://www05.abb.com/global/scot/scot245.nsf/veritydisplay/8c7b7a25f95d7c0ac12570fa002420ca/$File/Qpole%20Pole%20Mount%20Brochure.pdf

Twayne wrote:
In ,
bud-- typed:
Twayne wrote:
In
,
Mike Granby typed:
On Dec 31, 11:50 am, George wrote:

The power companies install capacitors to introduce
capacitive reactance to bring the PF closer to unity in
the upstream transmission lines.

Way to take a simple explanation and make it complicated, George...

Umm, haven't you ever noticed the large banks of capacitors housed
outside many industrial buildings? THOSE are the ones that are
correcting for the PF in that building. The power company does not
correct for unknown power factors and couldn't if it wanted to. I
think you're misunderstanding the purpose of whatever it is you're
seeing that you think are cap banks.


Don't know about where you live, but around here I often see racks of
PF correction caps on utility poles - 3 phase distribution voltage.
Utilities certainly DO install them. Utilities may also switch PF
correction caps [which can cause bad surges].

Another good post by George.
Another bad one by Twayne.

Utilities -sometimes- may install them in certain areas, I don't know.
I've never seen it in Coronado, San Diego, Chicago, Aspen, Fort Worth,
St. Louis, Boca Raton, or upsate NY and NYC. Anymore it's all
underground anyway except for smaller cities and rural areas. I've seen
a lot of things on power poles but never a capacitor bank.
Once the plans are approved for their installation by the powerco, a
contractor installs them any where I've ever been. Then they're
inspected by the powerco if it's a big system and they go into use. One
of the things you do often see on a power pole is a repeater for sending
the RF received electrical usage down down the hi-voltage wires for
charging for power purposes.

I'd appreciate it if you could find a URL or similar source to verify
that they'll put capacitor banks on a power pole.

I first saw a rack of PF correction caps about 5th grade. The utility
was installing one on a utility pole next to my school. I asked a
lineman what it was and he told me. Even explained what it did, but in
5th grade it didn't entirely make sense - current when there is no
voltage???

That rack, and the racks I see about every day, look a lot like the .htm
from HeyBub. The racks may have 3, 6 or 9 caps.

You do realize how
much even small ones weigh, don't you? And what the value of "small"
would be?

Gotta be way lighter than 3 pole pigs for 3 phase.

I'm guessing you don't, but it's easy to calculate. Actually
I'm wondering now if you would even recognize a capacitor bank as
capacitors anyway.

ooh - nobody is as smart as Twayne. I have know what PF correction caps
look like since I was about 10. Maybe you don't know what they look like.

But, if I'm wrong, I'd certainly like to see some evidence of it.

HeyBub to the rescue after a difficult google search.

--
bud--

On 12/31/2009 17:24, Mike Granby wrote:
On Dec 31, 11:50 am, wrote:

The power companies install capacitors to introduce
capacitive reactance to bring the PF closer to unity in
the upstream transmission lines.

Way to take a simple explanation and make it complicated, George...

One of the reasons everyone is so confused is trying to develop a
trivial explanation for something complicated.

On 12/31/2009 19:50, Twayne wrote:
In ,
Mike Granby typed:
On Dec 31, 11:50 am, George wrote:

The power companies install capacitors to introduce
capacitive reactance to bring the PF closer to unity in
the upstream transmission lines.

Way to take a simple explanation and make it complicated, George...

Umm, haven't you ever noticed the large banks of capacitors housed
outside many industrial buildings? THOSE are the ones that are
correcting for the PF in that building. The power company does not
correct for unknown power factors and couldn't if it wanted to. I think
you're misunderstanding the purpose of whatever it is you're seeing that
you think are cap banks.

Twayne


But the power company commonly corrects for PF and does install
capacitors to do it. They know practically none of their customers have
a unity PF and are usually lagging. Their base charges already include
an allowance for that. Not sure why they couldn't correct PF if they
wanted to since all they need to do to correct the typical lagging load
connected to them is install capacitors just like a large industrial
facility might if they want to avoid a PF penalty.

On Jan 3, 4:17*am, bud-- wrote:
Twayne wrote:
,
bud-- typed:
Twayne wrote:
In
,
Mike Granby typed:
On Dec 31, 11:50 am, George wrote:

The power companies install capacitors to introduce
capacitive reactance to bring the PF closer to unity in
the upstream transmission lines.

Way to take a simple explanation and make it complicated, George...

Umm, haven't you ever noticed the large banks of capacitors housed
outside many industrial buildings? THOSE are the ones that are
correcting for the PF in that building. The power company does not
correct for unknown power factors and couldn't if it wanted to. I
think you're misunderstanding the purpose of whatever it is you're
seeing that you think are cap banks.

Don't know about where you live, but around here I often see racks of
PF correction caps on utility poles - 3 phase distribution voltage.
Utilities certainly DO install them. Utilities may also switch PF
correction caps [which can cause bad surges].

Another good post by George.
Another bad one by Twayne.

Utilities -sometimes- may install them in certain areas, I don't know.
I've never seen it in Coronado, San Diego, Chicago, Aspen, Fort Worth,
St. Louis, Boca Raton, or upsate NY and NYC. Anymore it's all
underground anyway except for smaller cities and rural areas. *I've seen
a lot of things on power poles but never a capacitor bank.
Once the plans are approved for their installation by the powerco, a
contractor installs them any where I've ever been. Then they're
inspected by the powerco if it's a big system and they go into use. *One
of the things you do often see on a power pole is a repeater for sending
the RF received electrical usage down down the hi-voltage wires for
charging for power purposes.

I'd appreciate it if you could find a URL or similar source to verify
that they'll put capacitor banks on a power pole.

I first saw a rack of PF correction caps about 5th grade. The utility
was installing one on a utility pole next to my school. I asked a
lineman what it was and he told me. Even explained what it did, but in
5th grade it didn't entirely make sense - current when there is no
voltage???

That rack, and the racks I see about every day, look a lot like the .htm
from HeyBub. The racks may have 3, 6 or 9 caps.

You do realize how
much even small ones weigh, don't you? And what the value of "small"
would be?

Gotta be way lighter than 3 pole pigs for 3 phase.

*I'm guessing you don't, but it's easy to calculate. Actually
I'm wondering now if you would even recognize a capacitor bank as
capacitors anyway.

ooh - nobody is as smart as Twayne. I have know what PF correction caps
look like since I was about 10. Maybe you don't know what they look like.

* But, if I'm wrong, I'd certainly like to see some evidence of it.

HeyBub to the rescue after a difficult google search.

--
bud--- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Ouch!

On Jan 3, 8:03*am, George wrote:

One of the reasons everyone is so confused is trying
to develop a trivial explanation for something complicated.

It isn't complicated. Like I said, certain loads put a strain on the
trasnmission system without actually using power. That's all that has
to be said. All this show-boating about phase angles, reactance and
moving the PF back to unity is what is getting in the way.

On 1/3/2010 09:10, Mike Granby wrote:
On Jan 3, 8:03 am, wrote:

One of the reasons everyone is so confused is trying
to develop a trivial explanation for something complicated.

It isn't complicated. Like I said, certain loads put a strain on the
trasnmission system without actually using power. That's all that has
to be said. All this show-boating about phase angles, reactance and
moving the PF back to unity is what is getting in the way.

So your opinion trumps everyone then? Suppose someone wanted to actually
understand what was happening rather than the trivialized don't know any
more than you did before you read it explanation?

George wrote:
On 12/31/2009 17:24, Mike Granby wrote:
On Dec 31, 11:50 am, wrote:

The power companies install capacitors to introduce
capacitive reactance to bring the PF closer to unity in
the upstream transmission lines.

Way to take a simple explanation and make it complicated, George...

One of the reasons everyone is so confused is trying to develop a
trivial explanation for something complicated.

"Those who say a job is too difficult simply haven't tried hard enough."
[Ronald Reagan]

George wrote:
On 1/3/2010 09:10, Mike Granby wrote:
On Jan 3, 8:03 am, wrote:

One of the reasons everyone is so confused is trying
to develop a trivial explanation for something complicated.

It isn't complicated. Like I said, certain loads put a strain on the
trasnmission system without actually using power. That's all that has
to be said. All this show-boating about phase angles, reactance and
moving the PF back to unity is what is getting in the way.

So your opinion trumps everyone then? Suppose someone wanted to
actually understand what was happening rather than the trivialized
don't know any more than you did before you read it explanation?

Well, if one can't understand the problem, he just has to take the word of
his betters. I guess.

In ,
HeyBub typed:
Twayne wrote:

I'd appreciate it if you could find a URL or similar source to verify
that they'll put capacitor banks on a power pole. You do realize how
much even small ones weigh, don't you? And what the value of "small"
would be? I'm guessing you don't, but it's easy to calculate.
Actually I'm wondering now if you would even recognize a capacitor
bank as capacitors anyway. But, if I'm wrong, I'd certainly like to
see some evidence of it.

Out of some 16,000 hits on "capacitor+bank+power+poles" here's the
first - complete with pictures:

http://www.nepsi.com/ptcb.htm

Here's a brochure (PDF) with really colorful pictures (suitable for
framing)
http://www05.abb.com/global/scot/scot245.nsf/veritydisplay/8c7b7a25f95d7c0ac12570fa002420ca/$File/Qpole%20Pole%20Mount%20Brochure.pdf

OUTstanding, heybub! Thanks for the education, really. I have never seen
them and if I had I'd be sure to have remembered them! At first I thought
they might be all Pac Rim and EU located, but no, there are a few for N.A.
too, so obviously they are used here, IMO.

I sincerely apologize to you; hope you'll accept it. I was wrong and made
suppositions I shouldn't have. I was surprised to see polyprop as the
material, too. Guess I shoulda known better; next time I'll be a lot more
careful.

Twayne


--
--
Live in the moment;
be open to the possibilities
that life has to offer.