Replaced the last couple receptacles upstairs before starting to clean
up for the holidays. Found a recep in the master bedroom, right next to
the access panel for the bathroom plumbing. Ground was bootlegged to
neutral. There's a cold water pipe NINE INCHES away, and I didn't even
have to break any plaster to get to it! Sheesh.

Also went to replace the toggle switch in the bathroom. It seemed sunk
a little too far into the wall; I ASSumed it was because the plaster had
broken around the ears - I have a stack of those little metal plates for
rectifying just that problem. Nope! Apparently someone had skinned the
wall with drywall in the past, and instead of finding a box extender and
some longer screws, they busted the plaster ears off the toggle switch
and let the wall plate hold it in place.

This would be one of those days where I'm really cussing the last
"contractor" to work in here... Only two trips to the store so far today.

Silver lining: the real electrical supply house's parts counter is
apparently now open on Saturday. Picked up a 10-pack of "spec grade"
receps for $15. That's about what the Orange-Colored Store charges for
a "contractor pack" of the ****ty ones. This would be about where I
thank the Orange-Colored Store for not having the receps I wanted so I
had to drive past the supply house to get to the real hardware store.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On Nov 21, 3:43�pm, Nate Nagel wrote:
Replaced the last couple receptacles upstairs before starting to clean
up for the holidays. �Found a recep in the master bedroom, right next to
the access panel for the bathroom plumbing. �Ground was bootlegged to
neutral. �There's a cold water pipe NINE INCHES away, and I didn't even
have to break any plaster to get to it! �Sheesh.

Also went to replace the toggle switch in the bathroom. �It seemed sunk
a little too far into the wall; I ASSumed it was because the plaster had
broken around the ears - I have a stack of those little metal plates for
rectifying just that problem. �Nope! �Apparently someone had skinned the
wall with drywall in the past, and instead of finding a box extender and
some longer screws, they busted the plaster ears off the toggle switch
and let the wall plate hold it in place.

This would be one of those days where I'm really cussing the last
"contractor" to work in here... �Only two trips to the store so far today.

Silver lining: the real electrical supply house's parts counter is
apparently now open on Saturday. �Picked up a 10-pack of "spec grade"
receps for $15. �That's about what the Orange-Colored Store charges for
a "contractor pack" of the ****ty ones. �This would be about where I
thank the Orange-Colored Store for not having the receps I wanted so I
had to drive past the supply house to get to the real hardware store.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.http://members.cox.net/njnagel

code prohibits using water line as ground, although no doubt its
better than a bootleg neutral.....

you should run a proper ground wire

wrote:
On Nov 21, 3:43�pm, Nate Nagel wrote:
Replaced the last couple receptacles upstairs before starting to clean
up for the holidays. �Found a recep in the master bedroom, right next to
the access panel for the bathroom plumbing. �Ground was bootlegged to
neutral. �There's a cold water pipe NINE INCHES away, and I didn't even
have to break any plaster to get to it! �Sheesh.

Also went to replace the toggle switch in the bathroom. �It seemed sunk
a little too far into the wall; I ASSumed it was because the plaster had
broken around the ears - I have a stack of those little metal plates for
rectifying just that problem. �Nope! �Apparently someone had skinned the
wall with drywall in the past, and instead of finding a box extender and
some longer screws, they busted the plaster ears off the toggle switch
and let the wall plate hold it in place.

This would be one of those days where I'm really cussing the last
"contractor" to work in here... �Only two trips to the store so far today.

Silver lining: the real electrical supply house's parts counter is
apparently now open on Saturday. �Picked up a 10-pack of "spec grade"
receps for $15. �That's about what the Orange-Colored Store charges for
a "contractor pack" of the ****ty ones. �This would be about where I
thank the Orange-Colored Store for not having the receps I wanted so I
had to drive past the supply house to get to the real hardware store.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.http://members.cox.net/njnagel

code prohibits using water line as ground, although no doubt its
better than a bootleg neutral.....

you should run a proper ground wire
Understood about code. But OP should also make sure that pipe is
actually grounded, at least. Even if it doesn't go through the water
heater fitting that typically breaks ground path, some previous owner
may have replaced part of that pipe run with plastic or something, or an
iron/copper junction may cause problems.

--
aem sends...

aemeijers wrote:
wrote:
On Nov 21, 3:43�pm, Nate Nagel wrote:
Replaced the last couple receptacles upstairs before starting to clean
up for the holidays. �Found a recep in the master bedroom, right
next to
the access panel for the bathroom plumbing. �Ground was bootlegged to
neutral. �There's a cold water pipe NINE INCHES away, and I didn't
even
have to break any plaster to get to it! �Sheesh.

Also went to replace the toggle switch in the bathroom. �It seemed
sunk
a little too far into the wall; I ASSumed it was because the plaster had
broken around the ears - I have a stack of those little metal plates for
rectifying just that problem. �Nope! �Apparently someone had
skinned the
wall with drywall in the past, and instead of finding a box extender and
some longer screws, they busted the plaster ears off the toggle switch
and let the wall plate hold it in place.

This would be one of those days where I'm really cussing the last
"contractor" to work in here... �Only two trips to the store so far
today.

Silver lining: the real electrical supply house's parts counter is
apparently now open on Saturday. �Picked up a 10-pack of "spec grade"
receps for $15. �That's about what the Orange-Colored Store charges
for
a "contractor pack" of the ****ty ones. �This would be about where I
thank the Orange-Colored Store for not having the receps I wanted so I
had to drive past the supply house to get to the real hardware store.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.http://members.cox.net/njnagel

code prohibits using water line as ground, although no doubt its
better than a bootleg neutral.....

you should run a proper ground wire
Understood about code. But OP should also make sure that pipe is
actually grounded, at least. Even if it doesn't go through the water
heater fitting that typically breaks ground path, some previous owner
may have replaced part of that pipe run with plastic or something, or an
iron/copper junction may cause problems.

--
aem sends...

I can physically see (and have seen) all of the pipe between the shower
and the foundation, save for the vertical run up the chase through the
kitchen. I have no reason to believe that that is not copper as it
ought to be original to the house.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On Nov 21, 10:40*pm, Nate Nagel wrote:
aemeijers wrote:
wrote:
On Nov 21, 3:43 pm, Nate Nagel wrote:
Replaced the last couple receptacles upstairs before starting to clean
up for the holidays. Found a recep in the master bedroom, right
next to
the access panel for the bathroom plumbing. Ground was bootlegged to
neutral. There's a cold water pipe NINE INCHES away, and I didn't
even
have to break any plaster to get to it! Sheesh.

Also went to replace the toggle switch in the bathroom. It seemed
sunk
a little too far into the wall; I ASSumed it was because the plaster had
broken around the ears - I have a stack of those little metal plates for
rectifying just that problem. Nope! Apparently someone had
skinned the
wall with drywall in the past, and instead of finding a box extender and
some longer screws, they busted the plaster ears off the toggle switch
and let the wall plate hold it in place.

This would be one of those days where I'm really cussing the last
"contractor" to work in here... Only two trips to the store so far
today.

Silver lining: the real electrical supply house's parts counter is
apparently now open on Saturday. Picked up a 10-pack of "spec grade"
receps for $15. That's about what the Orange-Colored Store charges
for
a "contractor pack" of the ****ty ones. This would be about where I
thank the Orange-Colored Store for not having the receps I wanted so I
had to drive past the supply house to get to the real hardware store.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.http://members.cox.net/njnagel

code prohibits using water line as ground, although no doubt its
better than a bootleg neutral.....

you should run a proper ground wire
Understood about code. But OP should also make sure that pipe is
actually grounded, at least. Even if it doesn't go through the water
heater fitting that typically breaks ground path, some previous owner
may have replaced part of that pipe run with plastic or something, or an
iron/copper junction may cause problems.

--
aem sends...

I can physically see (and have seen) all of the pipe between the shower
and the foundation, save for the vertical run up the chase through the
kitchen. *I have no reason to believe that that is not copper as it
ought to be original to the house.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.http://members.cox.net/njnagel

I have no reason to believe that that is not copper as it *ought
to be* original to the house.

"Ought to be"...isn't that the same as ASSuming?

You really don't know for sure, do you?

Have you tested the outlets there is a ground?

OK, so ASSuming you have, and it passes, then it's grounded *for
now*.

I guess you can ASSume that you will remember to run a new ground if
you ever break that copper run and transition to PVC or PEX, but I
doubt the next homeowner will. I ASSume that's one of the reasons why
code no longer allows the use of the plumbing system as a ground.

DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Nov 21, 10:40 pm, Nate Nagel wrote:
aemeijers wrote:
wrote:
On Nov 21, 3:43 pm, Nate Nagel wrote:
Replaced the last couple receptacles upstairs before starting to clean
up for the holidays. Found a recep in the master bedroom, right
next to
the access panel for the bathroom plumbing. Ground was bootlegged to
neutral. There's a cold water pipe NINE INCHES away, and I didn't
even
have to break any plaster to get to it! Sheesh.
Also went to replace the toggle switch in the bathroom. It seemed
sunk
a little too far into the wall; I ASSumed it was because the plaster had
broken around the ears - I have a stack of those little metal plates for
rectifying just that problem. Nope! Apparently someone had
skinned the
wall with drywall in the past, and instead of finding a box extender and
some longer screws, they busted the plaster ears off the toggle switch
and let the wall plate hold it in place.
This would be one of those days where I'm really cussing the last
"contractor" to work in here... Only two trips to the store so far
today.
Silver lining: the real electrical supply house's parts counter is
apparently now open on Saturday. Picked up a 10-pack of "spec grade"
receps for $15. That's about what the Orange-Colored Store charges
for
a "contractor pack" of the ****ty ones. This would be about where I
thank the Orange-Colored Store for not having the receps I wanted so I
had to drive past the supply house to get to the real hardware store.
nate
--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.http://members.cox.net/njnagel
code prohibits using water line as ground, although no doubt its
better than a bootleg neutral.....
you should run a proper ground wire
Understood about code. But OP should also make sure that pipe is
actually grounded, at least. Even if it doesn't go through the water
heater fitting that typically breaks ground path, some previous owner
may have replaced part of that pipe run with plastic or something, or an
iron/copper junction may cause problems.
--
aem sends...
I can physically see (and have seen) all of the pipe between the shower
and the foundation, save for the vertical run up the chase through the
kitchen. I have no reason to believe that that is not copper as it
ought to be original to the house.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.http://members.cox.net/njnagel

I have no reason to believe that that is not copper as it *ought
to be* original to the house.

"Ought to be"...isn't that the same as ASSuming?

You really don't know for sure, do you?

Strictly, no, but I'm 99% certain.


Have you tested the outlets there is a ground?


Yes.

OK, so ASSuming you have, and it passes, then it's grounded *for
now*.

I guess you can ASSume that you will remember to run a new ground if
you ever break that copper run and transition to PVC or PEX, but I
doubt the next homeowner will.

Well, I plan to do it anyway, just not now. I figure a good ground
through copper (and yes, it is bonded to the panel before it leaves the
house) is better than a bootleg. (of course, the only way I could be
*100%* certain is to drain the water to the bathroom, as the water
itself is conductive...)

I ASSume that's one of the reasons why
code no longer allows the use of the plumbing system as a ground.

I've seen this asserted several times in this thread, but that's the
first I've heard of it. Besides, *before* the introduction of grounding
receptacles, if one had a table radio, say, it was common for the
instructions to explicitly state that you should ground the chassis to a
water pipe - and this was back in the day where it was 50/50 whether it
would be copper or iron.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

wrote:
On Nov 21, 3:43�pm, Nate Nagel wrote:
Replaced the last couple receptacles upstairs before starting to clean
up for the holidays. �Found a recep in the master bedroom, right next to
the access panel for the bathroom plumbing. �Ground was bootlegged to
neutral. �There's a cold water pipe NINE INCHES away, and I didn't even
have to break any plaster to get to it! �Sheesh.

Also went to replace the toggle switch in the bathroom. �It seemed sunk
a little too far into the wall; I ASSumed it was because the plaster had
broken around the ears - I have a stack of those little metal plates for
rectifying just that problem. �Nope! �Apparently someone had skinned the
wall with drywall in the past, and instead of finding a box extender and
some longer screws, they busted the plaster ears off the toggle switch
and let the wall plate hold it in place.

This would be one of those days where I'm really cussing the last
"contractor" to work in here... �Only two trips to the store so far today.

Silver lining: the real electrical supply house's parts counter is
apparently now open on Saturday. �Picked up a 10-pack of "spec grade"
receps for $15. �That's about what the Orange-Colored Store charges for
a "contractor pack" of the ****ty ones. �This would be about where I
thank the Orange-Colored Store for not having the receps I wanted so I
had to drive past the supply house to get to the real hardware store.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.http://members.cox.net/njnagel

code prohibits using water line as ground, although no doubt its
better than a bootleg neutral.....

you should run a proper ground wire

Is that a new revision? Last time I checked (which was admittedly a
while ago) when replacing a 2-hole recep with a grounding type with no
available ground (which is essentially what I am doing,) you were
allowed to run a separate conductor to the "nearest point in the
grounding system" or such like.

I agree that in new construction it would be complete BS, but I do have
faith that all the pipe is copper all the way to the point that it
leaves the building, and it is also bonded to ground/neutral at the
panel. Eventually I would like to ground everything properly, and
there's a run of receps in new romex that contains a ground conductor,
so at least those by code HAVE to be grounded (because I connected them
"properly," so technically it doesn't meet code at the moment)

I went ahead and threw a GFI recep in the first box anyway, seeing as
I'm using metal wall plates, but like having grounds where I can to
allow surge protectors to work better. Still breathing a sigh of relief
that I only lost a couple hundred bucks worth of stuff the last time we
got a BIG surge.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On 2009-11-22, Nate Nagel wrote:

Is that a new revision? Last time I checked (which was admittedly a
while ago) when replacing a 2-hole recep with a grounding type with no
available ground (which is essentially what I am doing,) you were
allowed to run a separate conductor to the "nearest point in the
grounding system" or such like.

2008 NEC 250.130(C):

(C) Nongrounding Receptacle Replacement or Branch Circuit
Extensions. The equipment grounding conductor of a grounding-type
receptacle or a branch-circuit extension shall be permitted to be
connected to any of the following:

(1) Any accessible point on the grounding electrode system as
described in 250.50

However:

2008 NEC 250.52(A)(1) in part:

Interior metal water piping located more than 1.52 m (5 ft) from the
point of entrance to the building shall not be used as a part of the
grounding electrode system or as a conductor to interconnect
electrodes that are part of the grounding electrode system.

The upshot is that the "neareast point in the grounding system" can be
a water pipe, but only within 5' of the building entrance. Presumably
this is because of the likelihood of future downstream changes in the
piping to a non-conductive material.

Cheers, Wayne

On Nov 21, 3:43*pm, Nate Nagel wrote:
Replaced the last couple receptacles upstairs before starting to clean
up for the holidays. *Found a recep in the master bedroom, right next to
the access panel for the bathroom plumbing. *Ground was bootlegged to
neutral. *There's a cold water pipe NINE INCHES away, and I didn't even
have to break any plaster to get to it! *Sheesh.

Also went to replace the toggle switch in the bathroom. *It seemed sunk
a little too far into the wall; I ASSumed it was because the plaster had
broken around the ears - I have a stack of those little metal plates for
rectifying just that problem. *Nope! *Apparently someone had skinned the
wall with drywall in the past, and instead of finding a box extender and
some longer screws, they busted the plaster ears off the toggle switch
and let the wall plate hold it in place.

This would be one of those days where I'm really cussing the last
"contractor" to work in here... *Only two trips to the store so far today.

Silver lining: the real electrical supply house's parts counter is
apparently now open on Saturday. *Picked up a 10-pack of "spec grade"
receps for $15. *That's about what the Orange-Colored Store charges for
a "contractor pack" of the ****ty ones. *This would be about where I
thank the Orange-Colored Store for not having the receps I wanted so I
had to drive past the supply house to get to the real hardware store.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.http://members.cox.net/njnagel

"There's a cold water pipe NINE INCHES away...Sheesh."

I'm ASSuming you made the sure the cold water pipe is actually copper
all the way to "ground" - and that it will remain that way forever,
right?

I'm ASSuming that one of the reasons code prohibits using a water line
as ground is because someone could come along at any time and
transition to PVC or PEX thus opening the ground.