Awl --

Rather than a harangue, let me just post some numbers, from the Dec.
Consumer Reports on Ranges I just got.

The first number is the price, the second number is CR's score

For 30" dual fuel (elec/gas),

Bosch 2,000 - 72
GE 1850 - 70
GE 1500 - 69

So far, so good, right? Heh....

Kenmore 3200 - 68
Wolf 5200 - 67
GE 2800 - 65
Viking 5500 - 63
Jenn-Air 2400 - 62
Dacor 6000 - 59
KithenAid 3700 - 50


If you were to graph this and do a linear regression for a correlation
coefficient, you'd wind up with a blob for a graph, which means a
correlation between price and quality of ZERO -- no relationship whatsoever.
If you didn't have objective scoring, and were going by price/brand alone,
you might as well randomly paste the product sheets on the side of a barn,
and shoot arrows at them blindfolded, and buy whatever your arrow hit.

Wow.... And this zero correlation occurs in their longer review of electric
smoothtops and gas ranges, of over 30 products each -- many of them GE,
rated best buys, while $5,000 thermador is near the middle, and $4600 DCS is
4th from the bottom.

How can this be?

Well, some would argue that CR doesn't really know how to test stuff, or
tests it peculiarly, and I would not totally disagree with that. While Wolf
and Viking may have not have scored well in CR's scoring system, mebbe they
are built like tanks, never break, last forever, etc. I'll take
reliability/longevity over slightly less performance any day of the week.

But then, mebbe not! How do you know???

Apropos of Fox5's li'l bull**** expose on bogus on-line reviews (the creamed
Lifestyle Lifts, the retail plastic surgery outfit, creamed them, yesterday,
with a continuation of the general topic today), the problem of Truth in
general is a very real one: HTF can you ever tell what is what, who is
tellling the truth?

This zero-correlation between price and score is almost the RULE in CR's
tests, from vacuums to cars. A $100 Hoover vastly outperforms $500 Dysons.
It's just amazing.

But, I shouldn't really be too frazzled or confounded. After all, we do
live in a BizarroLand country where Big Tobaccer is telling us not to smoke,
and where a fat abless Tony Little sold millions Ab Isolators and Gazelles
for about 1/4 of a century..

--
EA

"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...
Awl --

Rather than a harangue, let me just post some numbers, from the Dec.
Consumer Reports on Ranges I just got.

The first number is the price, the second number is CR's score

For 30" dual fuel (elec/gas),

Bosch 2,000 - 72
GE 1850 - 70
GE 1500 - 69

So far, so good, right? Heh....

Kenmore 3200 - 68
Wolf 5200 - 67
GE 2800 - 65
Viking 5500 - 63
Jenn-Air 2400 - 62
Dacor 6000 - 59
KithenAid 3700 - 50


If you were to graph this and do a linear regression for a correlation
coefficient, you'd wind up with a blob for a graph, which means a
correlation between price and quality of ZERO -- no relationship
whatsoever. If you didn't have objective scoring, and were going by
price/brand alone, you might as well randomly paste the product sheets on
the side of a barn, and shoot arrows at them blindfolded, and buy whatever
your arrow hit.

Wow.... And this zero correlation occurs in their longer review of
electric smoothtops and gas ranges, of over 30 products each -- many of
them GE, rated best buys, while $5,000 thermador is near the middle, and
$4600 DCS is 4th from the bottom.

How can this be?

Well, some would argue that CR doesn't really know how to test stuff, or
tests it peculiarly, and I would not totally disagree with that. While
Wolf and Viking may have not have scored well in CR's scoring system,
mebbe they are built like tanks, never break, last forever, etc. I'll take
reliability/longevity over slightly less performance any day of the week.

But then, mebbe not! How do you know???

Apropos of Fox5's li'l bull**** expose on bogus on-line reviews (the
creamed Lifestyle Lifts, the retail plastic surgery outfit, creamed them,
yesterday, with a continuation of the general topic today), the problem of
Truth in general is a very real one: HTF can you ever tell what is what,
who is tellling the truth?

This zero-correlation between price and score is almost the RULE in CR's
tests, from vacuums to cars. A $100 Hoover vastly outperforms $500
Dysons. It's just amazing.

But, I shouldn't really be too frazzled or confounded. After all, we do
live in a BizarroLand country where Big Tobaccer is telling us not to
smoke, and where a fat abless Tony Little sold millions Ab Isolators and
Gazelles for about 1/4 of a century..

--
EA
A few years ago I worked on a high end kitchen renovation, and I don't
remember if it was Viking or Vulcan, but the really big stainless steel
hood has a built in outlet for it's blower motor, which comes with a cord
and plug on it. The cord was about two inches short of reaching it's
outlet. You have to wonder if these people ever test this stuff. They seem
to need regular servicing on the Viking or Vulcan range as well. For some
reason the thermostat won't stay calibrated. A lot of this "pretend
commercial grade" stuff is just garbage in a very pretty jacket

Existential Angst wrote:
Awl --

Rather than a harangue, let me just post some numbers, from the Dec.
Consumer Reports on Ranges I just got.

The first number is the price, the second number is CR's score

For 30" dual fuel (elec/gas),

Bosch 2,000 - 72
GE 1850 - 70
GE 1500 - 69

So far, so good, right? Heh....

Kenmore 3200 - 68
Wolf 5200 - 67
GE 2800 - 65
Viking 5500 - 63
Jenn-Air 2400 - 62
Dacor 6000 - 59
KithenAid 3700 - 50


If you were to graph this and do a linear regression for a correlation
coefficient, you'd wind up with a blob for a graph, which means a
correlation between price and quality of ZERO -- no relationship
whatsoever. If you didn't have objective scoring, and were going by
price/brand alone, you might as well randomly paste the product
sheets on the side of a barn, and shoot arrows at them blindfolded,
and buy whatever your arrow hit.

No, this only shows a blob between price and CR's scores. Whether CR's
scores are reflective of quality is yet to be determined.

And, of course, we know there's no necessary correlation between price and
quality. For example, two ounces of cloth made into a bikini swimsuit by
Emilio Pucci for $490 is the same amount of cloth as in a 15¢ dishrag. Both,
however, are designed to go on dishes.
http://images.saksfifthavenue.com/im...TL_180x240.jpg

Existential Angst wrote:
Awl --

Rather than a harangue, let me just post some numbers, from the Dec.
Consumer Reports on Ranges I just got.

The first number is the price, the second number is CR's score

For 30" dual fuel (elec/gas),

Bosch 2,000 - 72
GE 1850 - 70
GE 1500 - 69

So far, so good, right? Heh....

Kenmore 3200 - 68
Wolf 5200 - 67
GE 2800 - 65
Viking 5500 - 63
Jenn-Air 2400 - 62
Dacor 6000 - 59
KithenAid 3700 - 50


If you were to graph this and do a linear regression for a correlation
coefficient, you'd wind up with a blob for a graph, which means a
correlation between price and quality of ZERO -- no relationship whatsoever.
If you didn't have objective scoring, and were going by price/brand alone,
you might as well randomly paste the product sheets on the side of a barn,
and shoot arrows at them blindfolded, and buy whatever your arrow hit.

Wow.... And this zero correlation occurs in their longer review of electric
smoothtops and gas ranges, of over 30 products each -- many of them GE,
rated best buys, while $5,000 thermador is near the middle, and $4600 DCS is
4th from the bottom.

How can this be?

Well, some would argue that CR doesn't really know how to test stuff, or
tests it peculiarly, and I would not totally disagree with that. While Wolf
and Viking may have not have scored well in CR's scoring system, mebbe they
are built like tanks, never break, last forever, etc. I'll take
reliability/longevity over slightly less performance any day of the week.

But then, mebbe not! How do you know???

Apropos of Fox5's li'l bull**** expose on bogus on-line reviews (the creamed
Lifestyle Lifts, the retail plastic surgery outfit, creamed them, yesterday,
with a continuation of the general topic today), the problem of Truth in
general is a very real one: HTF can you ever tell what is what, who is
tellling the truth?

This zero-correlation between price and score is almost the RULE in CR's
tests, from vacuums to cars. A $100 Hoover vastly outperforms $500 Dysons.
It's just amazing.

But, I shouldn't really be too frazzled or confounded. After all, we do
live in a BizarroLand country where Big Tobaccer is telling us not to smoke,
and where a fat abless Tony Little sold millions Ab Isolators and Gazelles
for about 1/4 of a century..

Hi,
Besr bang for the buck. Not you get what you pay for.

Existential Angst wrote:

Awl --

Rather than a harangue, let me just post some numbers, from the Dec.
Consumer Reports on Ranges I just got.

The first number is the price, the second number is CR's score

For 30" dual fuel (elec/gas),

Bosch 2,000 - 72
GE 1850 - 70
GE 1500 - 69

So far, so good, right? Heh....

Kenmore 3200 - 68
Wolf 5200 - 67
GE 2800 - 65
Viking 5500 - 63
Jenn-Air 2400 - 62
Dacor 6000 - 59
KithenAid 3700 - 50

If you were to graph this and do a linear regression for a correlation
coefficient, you'd wind up with a blob for a graph, which means a
correlation between price and quality of ZERO -- no relationship whatsoever.
If you didn't have objective scoring, and were going by price/brand alone,
you might as well randomly paste the product sheets on the side of a barn,
and shoot arrows at them blindfolded, and buy whatever your arrow hit.

Wow.... And this zero correlation occurs in their longer review of electric
smoothtops and gas ranges, of over 30 products each -- many of them GE,
rated best buys, while $5,000 thermador is near the middle, and $4600 DCS is
4th from the bottom.

How can this be?

Well, some would argue that CR doesn't really know how to test stuff, or
tests it peculiarly, and I would not totally disagree with that. While Wolf
and Viking may have not have scored well in CR's scoring system, mebbe they
are built like tanks, never break, last forever, etc. I'll take
reliability/longevity over slightly less performance any day of the week.

But then, mebbe not! How do you know???

Apropos of Fox5's li'l bull**** expose on bogus on-line reviews (the creamed
Lifestyle Lifts, the retail plastic surgery outfit, creamed them, yesterday,
with a continuation of the general topic today), the problem of Truth in
general is a very real one: HTF can you ever tell what is what, who is
tellling the truth?

This zero-correlation between price and score is almost the RULE in CR's
tests, from vacuums to cars. A $100 Hoover vastly outperforms $500 Dysons.
It's just amazing.

But, I shouldn't really be too frazzled or confounded. After all, we do
live in a BizarroLand country where Big Tobaccer is telling us not to smoke,
and where a fat abless Tony Little sold millions Ab Isolators and Gazelles
for about 1/4 of a century..

--
EA

The simple truth has always been - Knowledge is Power - Arm yourself
with the knowledge to properly evaluate products yourself, and trust no
one else's opinion.

"Pete C." wrote in message
ster.com...

Existential Angst wrote:

Awl --

Rather than a harangue, let me just post some numbers, from the Dec.
Consumer Reports on Ranges I just got.

The first number is the price, the second number is CR's score

For 30" dual fuel (elec/gas),

Bosch 2,000 - 72
GE 1850 - 70
GE 1500 - 69

So far, so good, right? Heh....

Kenmore 3200 - 68
Wolf 5200 - 67
GE 2800 - 65
Viking 5500 - 63
Jenn-Air 2400 - 62
Dacor 6000 - 59
KithenAid 3700 - 50

If you were to graph this and do a linear regression for a correlation
coefficient, you'd wind up with a blob for a graph, which means a
correlation between price and quality of ZERO -- no relationship
whatsoever.
If you didn't have objective scoring, and were going by price/brand
alone,
you might as well randomly paste the product sheets on the side of a
barn,
and shoot arrows at them blindfolded, and buy whatever your arrow hit.

Wow.... And this zero correlation occurs in their longer review of
electric
smoothtops and gas ranges, of over 30 products each -- many of them GE,
rated best buys, while $5,000 thermador is near the middle, and $4600 DCS
is
4th from the bottom.

How can this be?

Well, some would argue that CR doesn't really know how to test stuff, or
tests it peculiarly, and I would not totally disagree with that. While
Wolf
and Viking may have not have scored well in CR's scoring system, mebbe
they
are built like tanks, never break, last forever, etc. I'll take
reliability/longevity over slightly less performance any day of the week.

But then, mebbe not! How do you know???

Apropos of Fox5's li'l bull**** expose on bogus on-line reviews (the
creamed
Lifestyle Lifts, the retail plastic surgery outfit, creamed them,
yesterday,
with a continuation of the general topic today), the problem of Truth in
general is a very real one: HTF can you ever tell what is what, who is
tellling the truth?

This zero-correlation between price and score is almost the RULE in CR's
tests, from vacuums to cars. A $100 Hoover vastly outperforms $500
Dysons.
It's just amazing.

But, I shouldn't really be too frazzled or confounded. After all, we do
live in a BizarroLand country where Big Tobaccer is telling us not to
smoke,
and where a fat abless Tony Little sold millions Ab Isolators and
Gazelles
for about 1/4 of a century..

--
EA

The simple truth has always been - Knowledge is Power - Arm yourself
with the knowledge to properly evaluate products yourself, and trust no
one else's opinion.

How do you do that with a major appliance, if you can't take one home and
use it for a couple of months?
If you can't trust *some* opinion, you've got a tough haul. CR is about the
only legit general review institution. There are others for specific items,
like (I think) treadmilldoctor.com for treadmills, proly a few others, but
even these are drowned in a sea of mis and disinformation.

--
EA

"Pete C." wrote in
ster.com:


Existential Angst wrote:

Awl --

Rather than a harangue, let me just post some numbers, from the Dec.
Consumer Reports on Ranges I just got.

The first number is the price, the second number is CR's score

For 30" dual fuel (elec/gas),

Bosch 2,000 - 72
GE 1850 - 70
GE 1500 - 69

So far, so good, right? Heh....

Kenmore 3200 - 68
Wolf 5200 - 67
GE 2800 - 65
Viking 5500 - 63
Jenn-Air 2400 - 62
Dacor 6000 - 59
KithenAid 3700 - 50

If you were to graph this and do a linear regression for a
correlation coefficient, you'd wind up with a blob for a graph, which
means a correlation between price and quality of ZERO -- no
relationship whatsoever. If you didn't have objective scoring, and
were going by price/brand alone, you might as well randomly paste the
product sheets on the side of a barn, and shoot arrows at them
blindfolded, and buy whatever your arrow hit.

Wow.... And this zero correlation occurs in their longer review of
electric smoothtops and gas ranges, of over 30 products each -- many
of them GE, rated best buys, while $5,000 thermador is near the
middle, and $4600 DCS is 4th from the bottom.

How can this be?

Well, some would argue that CR doesn't really know how to test stuff,
or tests it peculiarly, and I would not totally disagree with that.
While Wolf and Viking may have not have scored well in CR's scoring
system, mebbe they are built like tanks, never break, last forever,
etc. I'll take reliability/longevity over slightly less performance
any day of the week.

But then, mebbe not! How do you know???

Apropos of Fox5's li'l bull**** expose on bogus on-line reviews (the
creamed Lifestyle Lifts, the retail plastic surgery outfit, creamed
them, yesterday, with a continuation of the general topic today), the
problem of Truth in general is a very real one: HTF can you ever
tell what is what, who is tellling the truth?

This zero-correlation between price and score is almost the RULE in
CR's tests, from vacuums to cars. A $100 Hoover vastly outperforms
$500 Dysons. It's just amazing.

But, I shouldn't really be too frazzled or confounded. After all, we
do live in a BizarroLand country where Big Tobaccer is telling us not
to smoke, and where a fat abless Tony Little sold millions Ab
Isolators and Gazelles for about 1/4 of a century..

--
EA

The simple truth has always been - Knowledge is Power - Arm yourself
with the knowledge to properly evaluate products yourself, and trust
no one else's opinion.



and trust
no one else's opinion.


OK, I'm gonna killfile everyone.

Existential Angst wrote:

"Pete C." wrote in message
ster.com...

Existential Angst wrote:

Awl --

Rather than a harangue, let me just post some numbers, from the Dec.
Consumer Reports on Ranges I just got.

The first number is the price, the second number is CR's score

For 30" dual fuel (elec/gas),

Bosch 2,000 - 72
GE 1850 - 70
GE 1500 - 69

So far, so good, right? Heh....

Kenmore 3200 - 68
Wolf 5200 - 67
GE 2800 - 65
Viking 5500 - 63
Jenn-Air 2400 - 62
Dacor 6000 - 59
KithenAid 3700 - 50

If you were to graph this and do a linear regression for a correlation
coefficient, you'd wind up with a blob for a graph, which means a
correlation between price and quality of ZERO -- no relationship
whatsoever.
If you didn't have objective scoring, and were going by price/brand
alone,
you might as well randomly paste the product sheets on the side of a
barn,
and shoot arrows at them blindfolded, and buy whatever your arrow hit.

Wow.... And this zero correlation occurs in their longer review of
electric
smoothtops and gas ranges, of over 30 products each -- many of them GE,
rated best buys, while $5,000 thermador is near the middle, and $4600 DCS
is
4th from the bottom.

How can this be?

Well, some would argue that CR doesn't really know how to test stuff, or
tests it peculiarly, and I would not totally disagree with that. While
Wolf
and Viking may have not have scored well in CR's scoring system, mebbe
they
are built like tanks, never break, last forever, etc. I'll take
reliability/longevity over slightly less performance any day of the week.

But then, mebbe not! How do you know???

Apropos of Fox5's li'l bull**** expose on bogus on-line reviews (the
creamed
Lifestyle Lifts, the retail plastic surgery outfit, creamed them,
yesterday,
with a continuation of the general topic today), the problem of Truth in
general is a very real one: HTF can you ever tell what is what, who is
tellling the truth?

This zero-correlation between price and score is almost the RULE in CR's
tests, from vacuums to cars. A $100 Hoover vastly outperforms $500
Dysons.
It's just amazing.

But, I shouldn't really be too frazzled or confounded. After all, we do
live in a BizarroLand country where Big Tobaccer is telling us not to
smoke,
and where a fat abless Tony Little sold millions Ab Isolators and
Gazelles
for about 1/4 of a century..

--
EA

The simple truth has always been - Knowledge is Power - Arm yourself
with the knowledge to properly evaluate products yourself, and trust no
one else's opinion.

How do you do that with a major appliance, if you can't take one home and
use it for a couple of months?

If you have the knowledge to understand what you're looking at and
evaluate it, you don't need to use it for a couple months to see it's
shortcomings.

If you can't trust *some* opinion, you've got a tough haul. CR is about the
only legit general review institution.

CR imnsho is anything but legit.

There are others for specific items,
like (I think) treadmilldoctor.com for treadmills, proly a few others, but
even these are drowned in a sea of mis and disinformation.

You won't drown if you avoid the sea and do your own evaluation.

"Pete C." wrote in message
ster.com...

Existential Angst wrote:

"Pete C." wrote in message
ster.com...

Existential Angst wrote:

Awl --

Rather than a harangue, let me just post some numbers, from the Dec.
Consumer Reports on Ranges I just got.

The first number is the price, the second number is CR's score

For 30" dual fuel (elec/gas),

Bosch 2,000 - 72
GE 1850 - 70
GE 1500 - 69

So far, so good, right? Heh....

Kenmore 3200 - 68
Wolf 5200 - 67
GE 2800 - 65
Viking 5500 - 63
Jenn-Air 2400 - 62
Dacor 6000 - 59
KithenAid 3700 - 50

If you were to graph this and do a linear regression for a correlation
coefficient, you'd wind up with a blob for a graph, which means a
correlation between price and quality of ZERO -- no relationship
whatsoever.
If you didn't have objective scoring, and were going by price/brand
alone,
you might as well randomly paste the product sheets on the side of a
barn,
and shoot arrows at them blindfolded, and buy whatever your arrow hit.

Wow.... And this zero correlation occurs in their longer review of
electric
smoothtops and gas ranges, of over 30 products each -- many of them
GE,
rated best buys, while $5,000 thermador is near the middle, and $4600
DCS
is
4th from the bottom.

How can this be?

Well, some would argue that CR doesn't really know how to test stuff,
or
tests it peculiarly, and I would not totally disagree with that.
While
Wolf
and Viking may have not have scored well in CR's scoring system, mebbe
they
are built like tanks, never break, last forever, etc. I'll take
reliability/longevity over slightly less performance any day of the
week.

But then, mebbe not! How do you know???

Apropos of Fox5's li'l bull**** expose on bogus on-line reviews (the
creamed
Lifestyle Lifts, the retail plastic surgery outfit, creamed them,
yesterday,
with a continuation of the general topic today), the problem of Truth
in
general is a very real one: HTF can you ever tell what is what, who
is
tellling the truth?

This zero-correlation between price and score is almost the RULE in
CR's
tests, from vacuums to cars. A $100 Hoover vastly outperforms $500
Dysons.
It's just amazing.

But, I shouldn't really be too frazzled or confounded. After all, we
do
live in a BizarroLand country where Big Tobaccer is telling us not to
smoke,
and where a fat abless Tony Little sold millions Ab Isolators and
Gazelles
for about 1/4 of a century..

--
EA

The simple truth has always been - Knowledge is Power - Arm yourself
with the knowledge to properly evaluate products yourself, and trust no
one else's opinion.

How do you do that with a major appliance, if you can't take one home and
use it for a couple of months?

If you have the knowledge to understand what you're looking at and
evaluate it, you don't need to use it for a couple months to see it's
shortcomings.

How would you do this, say, in the case of a front-loading washing machine?
How do you evaluate something like this without using it? How do you assess
reliability/repair records?
Etc.


If you can't trust *some* opinion, you've got a tough haul. CR is about
the
only legit general review institution.

CR imnsho is anything but legit.

Please elaborate.
If not CR, anyone else?
--
EA



There are others for specific items,
like (I think) treadmilldoctor.com for treadmills, proly a few others,
but
even these are drowned in a sea of mis and disinformation.

You won't drown if you avoid the sea and do your own evaluation.

On Tue, 10 Nov 2009 18:19:42 -0500, "Existential Angst"
wrote:

Awl --

Rather than a harangue, let me just post some numbers, from the Dec.
Consumer Reports on Ranges I just got.

The first number is the price, the second number is CR's score

For 30" dual fuel (elec/gas),

Bosch 2,000 - 72
GE 1850 - 70
GE 1500 - 69

So far, so good, right? Heh....

Kenmore 3200 - 68
Wolf 5200 - 67
GE 2800 - 65
Viking 5500 - 63
Jenn-Air 2400 - 62
Dacor 6000 - 59
KithenAid 3700 - 50



Did not expect KitchenAid at the bottom of the list. I have a
Whirlpool, works great, 18 years of heavy use and still going strong.
I'm wondering if all these brands are really made by a couple
factories who slap on different brand names. I buy appliances with as
few features as possible--lower cost and usually fewer repairs that
way.

On Nov 10, 6:19*pm, "Existential Angst"
wrote:
Awl --

Rather than a harangue, let me just post some numbers, from *the Dec.
Consumer Reports on Ranges I just got.

The first number is the price, the second number is CR's score

For 30" dual fuel (elec/gas),

Bosch *2,000 - 72
GE *1850 - 70
GE *1500 - 69

So far, so good, right? *Heh....

Kenmore *3200 - 68
Wolf *5200 - 67
GE *2800 - 65
Viking *5500 - 63
Jenn-Air 2400 - 62
Dacor *6000 - 59
KithenAid *3700 - 50

Isn't there some fine print in the article that says something like
"score differences of less than 4 points are meaningless"? IIRC
they usually say something like that next to some sort of
bar graph.

If you were to graph this and do a linear regression for a correlation
coefficient, you'd wind up with a blob for a graph, which means a
correlation between price and quality of ZERO -- no relationship whatsoever.
If you didn't have objective scoring, and were going by price/brand alone,
you might as well randomly paste the product sheets on the side of a barn,
and shoot arrows at them blindfolded, and buy whatever your arrow hit.

Wow.... *And this zero correlation occurs in their longer review of electric
smoothtops and gas ranges, of over 30 products each -- many of them GE,
rated best buys, while $5,000 thermador is near the middle, and $4600 DCS is
4th from the bottom.

How can this be?

Well, some would argue that CR doesn't really know how to test stuff, or
tests it peculiarly, and I would not totally disagree with that. *While Wolf
and Viking may have not have scored well in CR's scoring system, mebbe they
are built like tanks, never break, last forever, etc. I'll take
reliability/longevity over slightly less performance any day of the week.

But then, mebbe not! *How do you know???

Apropos of Fox5's li'l bull**** expose on bogus on-line reviews (the creamed
Lifestyle Lifts, the retail plastic surgery outfit, creamed them, yesterday,
with a continuation of the general topic today), the problem of Truth in
general is a very real one: *HTF can you ever tell what is what, who is
tellling the truth?

This zero-correlation between price and score is almost the RULE in CR's
tests, from vacuums to cars. *A $100 Hoover vastly outperforms $500 Dysons.
It's just amazing.

Yeah, but that Dyson guy on TV just oozes reliability.

A lot of what CR tests is intended to be marketed to gullible people,
who
really think it's important to have a washer/dryer that matches their
decor.
That sort of crap can really increase the price of an appliance.
"Oooh, washer
A has 5 different cycles, but washer B has 20. B must be better!"

Cindy Hamilton

Existential Angst wrote:

"Pete C." wrote in message
ster.com...

Existential Angst wrote:

"Pete C." wrote in message
ster.com...

Existential Angst wrote:

Awl --

Rather than a harangue, let me just post some numbers, from the Dec.
Consumer Reports on Ranges I just got.

The first number is the price, the second number is CR's score

For 30" dual fuel (elec/gas),

Bosch 2,000 - 72
GE 1850 - 70
GE 1500 - 69

So far, so good, right? Heh....

Kenmore 3200 - 68
Wolf 5200 - 67
GE 2800 - 65
Viking 5500 - 63
Jenn-Air 2400 - 62
Dacor 6000 - 59
KithenAid 3700 - 50

If you were to graph this and do a linear regression for a correlation
coefficient, you'd wind up with a blob for a graph, which means a
correlation between price and quality of ZERO -- no relationship
whatsoever.
If you didn't have objective scoring, and were going by price/brand
alone,
you might as well randomly paste the product sheets on the side of a
barn,
and shoot arrows at them blindfolded, and buy whatever your arrow hit.

Wow.... And this zero correlation occurs in their longer review of
electric
smoothtops and gas ranges, of over 30 products each -- many of them
GE,
rated best buys, while $5,000 thermador is near the middle, and $4600
DCS
is
4th from the bottom.

How can this be?

Well, some would argue that CR doesn't really know how to test stuff,
or
tests it peculiarly, and I would not totally disagree with that.
While
Wolf
and Viking may have not have scored well in CR's scoring system, mebbe
they
are built like tanks, never break, last forever, etc. I'll take
reliability/longevity over slightly less performance any day of the
week.

But then, mebbe not! How do you know???

Apropos of Fox5's li'l bull**** expose on bogus on-line reviews (the
creamed
Lifestyle Lifts, the retail plastic surgery outfit, creamed them,
yesterday,
with a continuation of the general topic today), the problem of Truth
in
general is a very real one: HTF can you ever tell what is what, who
is
tellling the truth?

This zero-correlation between price and score is almost the RULE in
CR's
tests, from vacuums to cars. A $100 Hoover vastly outperforms $500
Dysons.
It's just amazing.

But, I shouldn't really be too frazzled or confounded. After all, we
do
live in a BizarroLand country where Big Tobaccer is telling us not to
smoke,
and where a fat abless Tony Little sold millions Ab Isolators and
Gazelles
for about 1/4 of a century..

--
EA

The simple truth has always been - Knowledge is Power - Arm yourself
with the knowledge to properly evaluate products yourself, and trust no
one else's opinion.

How do you do that with a major appliance, if you can't take one home and
use it for a couple of months?

If you have the knowledge to understand what you're looking at and
evaluate it, you don't need to use it for a couple months to see it's
shortcomings.

How would you do this, say, in the case of a front-loading washing machine?
How do you evaluate something like this without using it?

I'm good. I can properly evaluate such an item given 15 minutes to paw
over it. I have many years experience with all things electromechanical
and electronic, so I know what I'm looking at. I also have many years
experience doing laundry, so I know where to look for potential design
flaws.

How do you assess
reliability/repair records?
Etc.

Good question since only the manufacturer and their service centers have
access to that information. Certainly CR does not have access to it.



If you can't trust *some* opinion, you've got a tough haul. CR is about
the
only legit general review institution.

CR imnsho is anything but legit.

Please elaborate.

Observation has shown that CRs "reviews" range from clueless to
deliberately deceptive.

If not CR, anyone else?

I'm not aware of any publication that actually accomplishes what CR
professes to do, and I don't think there could ever be one in the mass
market.

Searching for a given brand and model that is at the top of your short
list after your initial sort can reveal possible problem areas to
investigate further, but you have to have the knowledge to filter out
problem reports that do not include sufficient detail to validate them.

Red Green wrote:

"Pete C." wrote in
ster.com:


Existential Angst wrote:

Awl --

Rather than a harangue, let me just post some numbers, from the Dec.
Consumer Reports on Ranges I just got.

The first number is the price, the second number is CR's score

For 30" dual fuel (elec/gas),

Bosch 2,000 - 72
GE 1850 - 70
GE 1500 - 69

So far, so good, right? Heh....

Kenmore 3200 - 68
Wolf 5200 - 67
GE 2800 - 65
Viking 5500 - 63
Jenn-Air 2400 - 62
Dacor 6000 - 59
KithenAid 3700 - 50

If you were to graph this and do a linear regression for a
correlation coefficient, you'd wind up with a blob for a graph, which
means a correlation between price and quality of ZERO -- no
relationship whatsoever. If you didn't have objective scoring, and
were going by price/brand alone, you might as well randomly paste the
product sheets on the side of a barn, and shoot arrows at them
blindfolded, and buy whatever your arrow hit.

Wow.... And this zero correlation occurs in their longer review of
electric smoothtops and gas ranges, of over 30 products each -- many
of them GE, rated best buys, while $5,000 thermador is near the
middle, and $4600 DCS is 4th from the bottom.

How can this be?

Well, some would argue that CR doesn't really know how to test stuff,
or tests it peculiarly, and I would not totally disagree with that.
While Wolf and Viking may have not have scored well in CR's scoring
system, mebbe they are built like tanks, never break, last forever,
etc. I'll take reliability/longevity over slightly less performance
any day of the week.

But then, mebbe not! How do you know???

Apropos of Fox5's li'l bull**** expose on bogus on-line reviews (the
creamed Lifestyle Lifts, the retail plastic surgery outfit, creamed
them, yesterday, with a continuation of the general topic today), the
problem of Truth in general is a very real one: HTF can you ever
tell what is what, who is tellling the truth?

This zero-correlation between price and score is almost the RULE in
CR's tests, from vacuums to cars. A $100 Hoover vastly outperforms
$500 Dysons. It's just amazing.

But, I shouldn't really be too frazzled or confounded. After all, we
do live in a BizarroLand country where Big Tobaccer is telling us not
to smoke, and where a fat abless Tony Little sold millions Ab
Isolators and Gazelles for about 1/4 of a century..

--
EA

The simple truth has always been - Knowledge is Power - Arm yourself
with the knowledge to properly evaluate products yourself, and trust
no one else's opinion.

and trust
no one else's opinion.

OK, I'm gonna killfile everyone.

I didn't say not to review others opinions, I said not to trust them, in
other words use them to provide clues as to where you may need to
investigate further, do not accept them as fact.

Phisherman wrote:

On Tue, 10 Nov 2009 18:19:42 -0500, "Existential Angst"
wrote:

Awl --

Rather than a harangue, let me just post some numbers, from the Dec.
Consumer Reports on Ranges I just got.

The first number is the price, the second number is CR's score

For 30" dual fuel (elec/gas),

Bosch 2,000 - 72
GE 1850 - 70
GE 1500 - 69

So far, so good, right? Heh....

Kenmore 3200 - 68
Wolf 5200 - 67
GE 2800 - 65
Viking 5500 - 63
Jenn-Air 2400 - 62
Dacor 6000 - 59
KithenAid 3700 - 50



Did not expect KitchenAid at the bottom of the list. I have a
Whirlpool, works great, 18 years of heavy use and still going strong.
I'm wondering if all these brands are really made by a couple
factories who slap on different brand names. I buy appliances with as
few features as possible--lower cost and usually fewer repairs that
way.

Many of them are produced in the same factories, and the manufacturer's
web sites don't try to hide that fact. Most manufacturer's sites clearly
show their "family of brands" and indeed the fact that products are
produced by the same parent company and in the same factory doesn't mean
that there are not significant differences between their "value" brands
and their "luxury" brands.

"Pete C." wrote in
ster.com:


Red Green wrote:

"Pete C." wrote in
ster.com:


Existential Angst wrote:

Awl --

Rather than a harangue, let me just post some numbers, from the
Dec. Consumer Reports on Ranges I just got.

The first number is the price, the second number is CR's score

For 30" dual fuel (elec/gas),

Bosch 2,000 - 72
GE 1850 - 70
GE 1500 - 69

So far, so good, right? Heh....

Kenmore 3200 - 68
Wolf 5200 - 67
GE 2800 - 65
Viking 5500 - 63
Jenn-Air 2400 - 62
Dacor 6000 - 59
KithenAid 3700 - 50

If you were to graph this and do a linear regression for a
correlation coefficient, you'd wind up with a blob for a graph,
which means a correlation between price and quality of ZERO -- no
relationship whatsoever. If you didn't have objective scoring, and
were going by price/brand alone, you might as well randomly paste
the product sheets on the side of a barn, and shoot arrows at them
blindfolded, and buy whatever your arrow hit.

Wow.... And this zero correlation occurs in their longer review
of electric smoothtops and gas ranges, of over 30 products each --
many of them GE, rated best buys, while $5,000 thermador is near
the middle, and $4600 DCS is 4th from the bottom.

How can this be?

Well, some would argue that CR doesn't really know how to test
stuff, or tests it peculiarly, and I would not totally disagree
with that. While Wolf and Viking may have not have scored well in
CR's scoring system, mebbe they are built like tanks, never break,
last forever, etc. I'll take reliability/longevity over slightly
less performance any day of the week.

But then, mebbe not! How do you know???

Apropos of Fox5's li'l bull**** expose on bogus on-line reviews
(the creamed Lifestyle Lifts, the retail plastic surgery outfit,
creamed them, yesterday, with a continuation of the general topic
today), the problem of Truth in general is a very real one: HTF
can you ever tell what is what, who is tellling the truth?

This zero-correlation between price and score is almost the RULE
in CR's tests, from vacuums to cars. A $100 Hoover vastly
outperforms $500 Dysons. It's just amazing.

But, I shouldn't really be too frazzled or confounded. After all,
we do live in a BizarroLand country where Big Tobaccer is telling
us not to smoke, and where a fat abless Tony Little sold millions
Ab Isolators and Gazelles for about 1/4 of a century..

--
EA

The simple truth has always been - Knowledge is Power - Arm
yourself with the knowledge to properly evaluate products yourself,
and trust no one else's opinion.

and trust
no one else's opinion.

OK, I'm gonna killfile everyone.

I didn't say not to review others opinions, I said not to trust them,
in other words use them to provide clues as to where you may need to
investigate further, do not accept them as fact.


Sorry Pete. You KF'd :-)