I just read this from an AP article:
"Households are expected to pay an average of $783, nearly 12 percent
less than last winter, for natural gas, and $1,821 for heating oil,
about 2 percent lower. People using electric heat will pay $933, a
decline of 2 percent and those using propane $1,667, or 14 percent
less than last winter, the agency said."

Isn't electric the most expensive of all? Or are they saying that
people who use electric heat have that as their average bill, but
they're in warmer climes so they don't need as much heating anyway?

On Tue, 6 Oct 2009 10:04:03 -0700 (PDT), ST
wrote:

I just read this from an AP article:
"Households are expected to pay an average of $783, nearly 12 percent
less than last winter, for natural gas, and $1,821 for heating oil,
about 2 percent lower. People using electric heat will pay $933, a
decline of 2 percent and those using propane $1,667, or 14 percent
less than last winter, the agency said."

Isn't electric the most expensive of all?

Depends on where you live. It is probably the cheapest in the TN
Valley- maybe the most expensive *per btu* in the northeast. But
it has advantages of no tuneup required, no waste & room by room
zoning.

Or are they saying that
people who use electric heat have that as their average bill, but
they're in warmer climes so they don't need as much heating anyway?

These 'average' bill reports always make me chuckle. Have you heard
about the mathematician who drowned in the lake that was an average of
1foot deep?

And to make them doubly funny, I like when they mix imaginary averages
with WAG predictions of the future. Especially when they are
predicting not just market vagaries, but also mother nature's fickle
future. [Remember last year- "$5/gallon oil- *very* cold, long
winter." Mine never hit $4 & I used exactly the same amount of oil as
the year before.]

Jim

"Jim Elbrecht" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 6 Oct 2009 10:04:03 -0700 (PDT), ST
wrote:

I just read this from an AP article:
"Households are expected to pay an average of $783, nearly 12 percent
less than last winter, for natural gas, and $1,821 for heating oil,
about 2 percent lower. People using electric heat will pay $933, a
decline of 2 percent and those using propane $1,667, or 14 percent
less than last winter, the agency said."

Isn't electric the most expensive of all?

Depends on where you live. It is probably the cheapest in the TN
Valley- maybe the most expensive *per btu* in the northeast. But
it has advantages of no tuneup required, no waste & room by room
zoning.

Or are they saying that
people who use electric heat have that as their average bill, but
they're in warmer climes so they don't need as much heating anyway?

These 'average' bill reports always make me chuckle. Have you heard
about the mathematician who drowned in the lake that was an average of
1foot deep?

And to make them doubly funny, I like when they mix imaginary averages
with WAG predictions of the future. Especially when they are
predicting not just market vagaries, but also mother nature's fickle
future. [Remember last year- "$5/gallon oil- *very* cold, long
winter." Mine never hit $4 & I used exactly the same amount of oil as
the year before.]


I had to pony up $5k ($4.95/gallon) up front for 2008-2009 "price cap"
savings, BUT, you only pay the current price at time of fill-up if it's less
than the "cap" price. So...when the winter was over they still had $3k of my
money so not only is this year's oil paid in full, they had to give me back
nearly $700. I used 300 gallons less last year than the year prior because
we insulated and got new windows, etc.

On Oct 6, 12:04 pm, ST wrote:
I just read this from an AP article:
"Households are expected to pay an average of $783, nearly 12 percent
less than last winter, for natural gas, and $1,821 for heating oil,
about 2 percent lower. People using electric heat will pay $933, a
decline of 2 percent and those using propane $1,667, or 14 percent
less than last winter, the agency said."

Isn't electric the most expensive of all? Or are they saying that
people who use electric heat have that as their average bill, but
they're in warmer climes so they don't need as much heating anyway?

Andy comments:

A better comparison would be the cost of each item per BTU, since
we would expect to pay
less for energy if we have less useage, and that changes each year....

I have NEVER seen the cost per BTU of electric decrease.

I HAVE seen the cost per BTU of gas,oil,coal go up AND down each
year....

But to say that the "cost for gas" will go down might just mean
that a warmer
winter is being forecast...

Andy in Eureka, Texas

AndyS wrote:
....
A better comparison would be the cost of each item per BTU, since
we would expect to pay
less for energy if we have less useage, and that changes each year....

I have NEVER seen the cost per BTU of electric decrease.

I HAVE seen the cost per BTU of gas,oil,coal go up AND down each
year....

But to say that the "cost for gas" will go down might just mean
that a warmer winter is being forecast...

a) you've simply not watched fuel surcharges on electric rates follow
the energy markets then;

b) oil and particularly gas are significantly cheaper than they were
last year and one wouldn't expect the prices to rise drastically in the
short term given that economic recovery is likely to be longer term.
This could, of course, change overnight if OB decides to do something
precipitous in Iran, for example.

c) not seen longterm projections/predictions that for the NE or either
coast but the longterm in the midwest for winter last I saw was for more
nearly normal or perhaps below and dry which would be colder than last
year in most areas.

I do agree such articles are essentially meaningless as they mangle the
data from which the stated conclusions are drawn so badly as to be
totally unable to separate out what is weather driven as opposed to the
energy costs.

--

On Oct 6, 2:30*pm, dpb wrote:
AndyS wrote:

...

* *A better comparison would be the cost of each item per BTU, since
we would expect to pay
less for energy if we have less useage, and that changes each year....

* *I have NEVER seen the cost per BTU of electric decrease.

* * I HAVE seen the cost per BTU of gas,oil,coal go up AND down each
year....

* *But to say that the "cost for gas" will go down might just mean
that a warmer winter is being forecast...

a) you've simply not watched fuel surcharges on electric rates follow
the energy markets then;

b) oil and particularly gas are significantly cheaper than they were
last year and one wouldn't expect the prices to rise drastically in the
short term given that economic recovery is likely to be longer term.
This could, of course, change overnight if OB decides to do something
precipitous in Iran, for example.

c) not seen longterm projections/predictions that for the NE or either
coast but the longterm in the midwest for winter last I saw was for more
nearly normal or perhaps below and dry which would be colder than last
year in most areas.

I do agree such articles are essentially meaningless as they mangle the
data from which the stated conclusions are drawn so badly as to be
totally unable to separate out what is weather driven as opposed to the
energy costs.

--


The numbers could be due to the fact that homes with electric heat
tend to be smaller, in warmer climates, etc. So trying to compare
average bills is meaningless. Also, does "electric" just mean
electric resistance heat, which we know is expensive, or does it
include heat pumps?

We just got notified here in NJ that nat gas prices are dropping
substantially and we are getting a substantial refund in the form of
credit this month.

On Oct 6, 1:30 pm, dpb wrote:

a) you've simply not watched fuel surcharges on electric rates follow
the energy markets then;

**** Of course I have, but that simply figures into the cost per BTU
or
cost per KWH, and enough information is on the bill to make that
calculation. Perhaps your power company works differently from
mine, which is TXU in northern Texas .


b) oil and particularly gas are significantly cheaper than they were
last year and one wouldn't expect the prices to rise drastically in the
short term given that economic recovery is likely to be longer term.
This could, of course, change overnight if OB decides to do something
precipitous in Iran, for example.

***** I hope you are correct, but since I don't use gas or oil for
home
heating or air conditioning, I can't discuss it. My reply dealt ONLY
with
the proper way to make a comparison between the different fuel
sources.


c) not seen longterm projections/predictions that for the NE or either
coast but the longterm in the midwest for winter last I saw was for more
nearly normal or perhaps below and dry which would be colder than last
year in most areas.

***** I have heard that the El Nino effect may cause a wetter year
in
north Texas than last. I hope so. But this is all prediction/
speculation
and has nothing to do with the proper way to compare how "cheap"
electric heating is.


I do agree such articles are essentially meaningless as they mangle the
data from which the stated conclusions are drawn so badly as to be
totally unable to separate out what is weather driven as opposed to the
energy costs.

***** That is exactly why I took the time to reply. Far too many
people
think that such articles are written by people skilled in the subject,
and
come to incorrect conclusions.

AndyS, licensed PE, Texas


--

ST wrote:
I just read this from an AP article:
"Households are expected to pay an average of $783, nearly 12 percent
less than last winter, for natural gas, and $1,821 for heating oil,
about 2 percent lower. People using electric heat will pay $933, a
decline of 2 percent and those using propane $1,667, or 14 percent
less than last winter, the agency said."

Isn't electric the most expensive of all? Or are they saying that
people who use electric heat have that as their average bill, but
they're in warmer climes so they don't need as much heating anyway?

Places where lots of people use electric heat would tend to be places with
cheaper electricity.

On Tue, 6 Oct 2009 16:35:35 -0700, "Bob F"
wrote:

ST wrote:
I just read this from an AP article:
"Households are expected to pay an average of $783, nearly 12 percent
less than last winter, for natural gas, and $1,821 for heating oil,
about 2 percent lower. People using electric heat will pay $933, a
decline of 2 percent and those using propane $1,667, or 14 percent
less than last winter, the agency said."

Isn't electric the most expensive of all? Or are they saying that
people who use electric heat have that as their average bill, but
they're in warmer climes so they don't need as much heating anyway?

Places where lots of people use electric heat would tend to be places with
cheaper electricity.

Or places where Natural Gas in not available and Propane and Oil need
to behauled a good distance or locating the oil/rpopane tanks for
access is problematic.

On Tue, 06 Oct 2009 23:27:59 -0400, clare wrote:
Places where lots of people use electric heat would tend to be places with
cheaper electricity.

Or places where Natural Gas in not available and Propane and Oil need
to behauled a good distance or locating the oil/rpopane tanks for
access is problematic.

Urgh, our propane tank's way out back, and we got a lot of snow last year
- clearing a path to get the delivery truck in was a nightmare. I still
need to talk to the delivery company and see how close they have to get;
last year it seemed they just ran a big hose the last 40' or so rather
than backing the truck right in, which at least would save me a bit of a
job.

At some point I'd like to move the (rented) tank to somewhere more
sensible, but I don't know if that's something they'll let me do myself -
if they insist on doing it, it'll probably be expensive...

cheers

Jules

Jules wrote:

-snip-

At some point I'd like to move the (rented) tank to somewhere more
sensible, but I don't know if that's something they'll let me do myself -
if they insist on doing it, it'll probably be expensive...

Phone calls are free. Ask 'em.

When I moved mine 8-9 yrs ago I only paid for the tubing. The labor
was free. They said they did it that way so people didn't DIY &
cause a hazard.

Jim

On Wed, 07 Oct 2009 11:36:59 -0400, Jim Elbrecht wrote:

Jules wrote:

-snip-

At some point I'd like to move the (rented) tank to somewhere more
sensible, but I don't know if that's something they'll let me do myself -
if they insist on doing it, it'll probably be expensive...

Phone calls are free. Ask 'em.

Yeah, I keep trying to get the necessary tuits together :-)

When I moved mine 8-9 yrs ago I only paid for the tubing. The labor
was free. They said they did it that way so people didn't DIY &
cause a hazard.

I had them come out and trace our line a little while back as it was where
I wanted to put a dog fence in - I was surprised that the line was only
6" down and just plain old 3/8" copper pipe; I was expecting something
deeper and a bit stronger (possibly even a pipe within a pipe). I know
that's all it is within the house, but I'd thought the outdoor stuff would
be a bit tougher.

cheers

Jules

On Tue, 6 Oct 2009 10:04:03 -0700 (PDT), ST
wrote:

I just read this from an AP article:
"Households are expected to pay an average of $783, nearly 12 percent
less than last winter, for natural gas, and $1,821 for heating oil,
about 2 percent lower. People using electric heat will pay $933, a
decline of 2 percent and those using propane $1,667, or 14 percent
less than last winter, the agency said."

Isn't electric the most expensive of all? Or are they saying that
people who use electric heat have that as their average bill, but
they're in warmer climes so they don't need as much heating anyway?


Your electric heating is 100% efficient. It ALL turns to heat
somewhere in the house and none is lost out the "stack". It CAN be
cheaper than propane or oil. Sometimes.
I've told many people who converted from electric to gas to leave the
electric heat installed - if gas prices spike, use the electric.

On Tue, 06 Oct 2009 23:21:01 -0400, wrote:
On Tue, 6 Oct 2009 10:04:03 -0700 (PDT), ST
wrote:

I just read this from an AP article:
"Households are expected to pay an average of $783, nearly 12 percent
less than last winter, for natural gas, and $1,821 for heating oil,
about 2 percent lower. People using electric heat will pay $933, a
decline of 2 percent and those using propane $1,667, or 14 percent
less than last winter, the agency said."

Isn't electric the most expensive of all? Or are they saying that
people who use electric heat have that as their average bill, but
they're in warmer climes so they don't need as much heating anyway?


Your electric heating is 100% efficient. It ALL turns to heat
somewhere in the house and none is lost out the "stack". It CAN be
cheaper than propane or oil. Sometimes.
I've told many people who converted from electric to gas to leave the
electric heat installed - if gas prices spike, use the electric.

Generally, electric heat is 10 times more expensive than fossil fuels.
It has to be one hell of a fuel price spike for electric heat to be worth
it. The only time electric heat can be remotely reasonable is if only
one room is heated.

AZ Nomad wrote:

-snip-
Generally, electric heat is 10 times more expensive than fossil fuels.

Despite the weasel word 'generally', I'd like a cite on that one.

Jim

On Wed, 07 Oct 2009 07:16:56 -0400, Jim Elbrecht wrote:
AZ Nomad wrote:

-snip-
Generally, electric heat is 10 times more expensive than fossil fuels.


Despite the weasel word 'generally', I'd like a cite on that one.

Just general experience. A datapoint in the early 80's; $300/mo to heat a
vermont vacation house two weekends a month compared to $150/mo to heat the main
house in connecticut which was twice the size and occupied all month.

In another situation, About $40/month to heat one room in a northeastern winter
vs. $100/mo to heat the whole apartment.

AZ Nomad wrote:
On Wed, 07 Oct 2009 07:16:56 -0400, Jim Elbrecht wrote:
AZ Nomad wrote:

-snip-
Generally, electric heat is 10 times more expensive than fossil fuels.


Despite the weasel word 'generally', I'd like a cite on that one.

Just general experience. A datapoint in the early 80's; $300/mo to heat a
vermont vacation house two weekends a month compared to $150/mo to heat the main
house in connecticut which was twice the size and occupied all month.

In another situation, About $40/month to heat one room in a northeastern winter
vs. $100/mo to heat the whole apartment.


Generally it is a lot more useful to determine the cost/BTU and then
factor in the efficiency of the heating equipment to determine net
cost/BTU. Stuff like location A heating one room cost this and location
B cost that pretty much tells you nothing without knowing a complete set
of details and even then the answer is just a best guess.

On Wed, 07 Oct 2009 09:16:42 -0500, AZ Nomad
wrote:

On Wed, 07 Oct 2009 07:16:56 -0400, Jim Elbrecht wrote:
AZ Nomad wrote:

-snip-
Generally, electric heat is 10 times more expensive than fossil fuels.


Despite the weasel word 'generally', I'd like a cite on that one.

Just general experience.

What you describe is not general experience- it is an isolated [30 yr
old] anecdote.

A datapoint in the early 80's;

In NY in the early 80's Niagara Mohawk sold electricity cheaper than
oil, gas or coal prices-- per BTU. By the end of the decade it was
no longer the bargain. Now NY's Public Service Commission does
everything in their power to equalize the prices of Nat. Gas, propane,
electricity & oil.

$300/mo to heat a
vermont vacation house two weekends a month compared to $150/mo to heat the main
house in connecticut which was twice the size and occupied all month.

That's the kind of twisted reasoning that makes all these reports and
predictions so unreliable. No mention is made of the Heating Degree
Days- heat loss of the dwelling, or type of system installed.

If you really care to compare fuels, you need to do real world
calculations.

Figure 123000 BTUs of heat from a gallon of oil.
Propane makes 91600 BTU's per gallon.
Electricity is 3412/kWh.

Right now- in NY [National grid] I can buy 3412 BTU's of electric
resistance heat for 16cents. [I don't know anything about heat
pumps anymore-- but I'll bet a ground exchange heat pump would be a
lot less this time of year]

16 cents worth of oil [.149375gallons] will produce 18373 BTU's.
But 20% goes up the chimney so I'm left with 14698. There are other
losses- like not have room by room zones-- But you could say that
electricity is roughly 4 times as expensive as oil *right now*, where
I live.

16 cents worth of propane will buy 14827 BTU's. My propane heater is
un-vented so it is 100% efficient- so it is also about 1/4 the cost of
electricity *right now*.

Next week, next month. . .next year those numbers will change & need
to be recalculated. There is no "generally electricity is 'x' times
the cost of other fuels"

Jim

AZ Nomad wrote:
On Tue, 06 Oct 2009 23:21:01 -0400, wrote:
On Tue, 6 Oct 2009 10:04:03 -0700 (PDT), ST
wrote:

I just read this from an AP article:
"Households are expected to pay an average of $783, nearly 12 percent
less than last winter, for natural gas, and $1,821 for heating oil,
about 2 percent lower. People using electric heat will pay $933, a
decline of 2 percent and those using propane $1,667, or 14 percent
less than last winter, the agency said."

Isn't electric the most expensive of all? Or are they saying that
people who use electric heat have that as their average bill, but
they're in warmer climes so they don't need as much heating anyway?


Your electric heating is 100% efficient. It ALL turns to heat
somewhere in the house and none is lost out the "stack". It CAN be
cheaper than propane or oil. Sometimes.
I've told many people who converted from electric to gas to leave the
electric heat installed - if gas prices spike, use the electric.

Generally, electric heat is 10 times more expensive than fossil fuels.


What locales have that sort of ratio?

It has to be one hell of a fuel price spike for electric heat to be worth
it. The only time electric heat can be remotely reasonable is if only
one room is heated.

On Oct 7, 1:36*am, AZ Nomad wrote:
..
Generally, electric heat is 10 times more expensive than fossil fuels.
It has to be one hell of a fuel price spike for electric heat to be worth
it. *The only time electric heat can be remotely reasonable is if only
one room is heated.- Hide quoted text -
..

That blanket statement is not true everywhere.

It must be very much a case of where one is located. How cold the
climate and how much wind.

Here in the most eastern area of Canada it is a short summer; we do
not need or use AC (although a few have heat pumps that can be
reversed to provide cooling). We are less than a kilometre (that's 0.6
miles) from the North Atlantic and it CAN be windy!

The heating season started in September and will go through to at
least May.

In fact when electric heating first started to be popular in the late
1950s one observation was 'Every month of the year, in this climate,
requires some heating'.

Apart from the advantages of no initial costs for chimney, no oil
storage tank, no annual furnace maintenance etc. we have been all
electric since 1970. Our total electric maintenance during that time
has been less than $100 comprising one circuit breaker, and three
thermostats. Electric heating is also very safe and each room can be
it's own zone. It's also very useful for an area such as a garage or
workshop where it can be turned on for a few hours to work on
something such as the car.

Electricity cost here, at the moment, is just over ten cents per
kilowatt hour (inclusive of all sales taxes and a per customer
account charge of around $17 per month).

All electricity that comes into the home gets turned into warmth in
some form or other. Either as lighting, cooking, TV or other appliance
usage etc. Including the heat from our two computers. Where heat is
wasted is by the clothes dryer which, as it has to, chucks warm damp
air outside and if/when warm bath or shower water goes straight down
the drain rather than being allowed to cool to room temperature. For
an estimated heat saving of somewhere around 12 to 15 cents per
shower. Also dish washer that is run couple of times a week.

Several electric bulbs that are on when bathroom is in use pretty well
heat it during most of the year; so the 500 watt thermostatically
controlled baseboard in that room rarely cuts in. There is also a 50
watt bulb outside over front door which is on about 8 - 10 hours per
nightly all year round for insurance purposes; the electricity
consumed by that item is a bit less than $20 per year. Not converted
to a CFL because so far they haven't worked well in cold weather! If/
when a suitable CFL is found; probably at a cost of say $3 to $5 the
annual consumption of that one outside light can probably be reduced
to $5 or less?

Cost: On an equal monthly payments budget plan (no interest charges)
cost is now approx. $230 (Canadian) = roughly $196 US) per month for
all energy consumed by the home. So average annual energy cost in US
dollars is a bit less than $2400.

In view of oil costs and tight new regulations about improperly
installed and protected oil tanks (only expensive delivered propane is
available) many people have and are converting to 'electric
furnaces' (either hot water or air, depending on what sytem they
have). Since most** (but not all) of the electrcity is generated by
hydro it is also considered more ecologically viable. Also with very
reliable electricity sytem and fast repairs there are no fuel delivery
problems.

When the wind is not blowing there is definitely a reduction during
the winter in the pall of haze and smoke hanging over the downtown and
harbour area of our major provincial city. Old style 'oil heaters'
with tin chimneys have been long gone for many years and the use of
domestic oil furnaces in the many newer homes constructed during the
last twenty-thirty years pretty well unheard of.

The local electricity supplier reduced electricity rates due to lower
oil** consumption at the one an only standby thermal generating
station using Bunker C, but is proposing an approx 5 to 6 per cent
increase next year. So our per hour kilowatt cost 'may' rise to around
11 cents (Canadian) = approx 9 cents US. As other sources become
available the the thermal generating will be phased out.

Eventually the huge proposed hydro expansion at Lower Churchill, in
addition to the existing Churchill Falls, in Newfoundland-Labrador
which will be partly for export to other parts of Canada and the
northern USA may reduce rates once again.

Trust this of interest.

On Oct 7, 10:25*am, stan wrote:
On Oct 7, 1:36*am, AZ Nomad wrote:
. Generally, electric heat is 10 times more expensive than fossil fuels.
It has to be one hell of a fuel price spike for electric heat to be worth
it. *The only time electric heat can be remotely reasonable is if only
one room is heated.- Hide quoted text -

.

That blanket statement is not true everywhere.

It must be very much a case of where one is located. How cold the
climate and how much wind.

If you're talking about resistance electric heating, which apparently
you are, then the climate and wind have zippo to do with how much
either fuel costs. The house needs X BTUs to achieve a certain
temperature. That is determined by the climate and wind. But how
much it costs to supply those X BTUs is determined by the fuel costs
and efficiencies, not the climate.





Here in the most eastern area of Canada it is a short summer; we do
not need or use AC (although a few have heat pumps that can be
reversed to provide cooling). We are less than a kilometre (that's 0.6
miles) from the North Atlantic and it CAN be windy!

The heating season started in September and will go through to at
least May.

In fact when electric heating first started to be popular in the late
1950s one observation was 'Every month of the year, in this climate,
requires some heating'.

Apart from the advantages of no initial costs for chimney, no oil
storage tank, no annual furnace maintenance etc. we have been all
electric since 1970. Our total electric maintenance during that time
has been less than $100 comprising one circuit breaker, and three
thermostats. Electric heating is also very safe and each room can be
it's own zone.

It's also very useful for an area such as a garage or
workshop where it can be turned on for a few hours to work on
something such as the car.

Electricity cost here, at the moment, is just over ten cents per
kilowatt hour (inclusive of all sales taxes and a per customer
account charge of around $17 per month).

All electricity that comes into the home gets turned into warmth in
some form or other. Either as lighting, cooking, TV or other appliance
usage etc. Including the heat from our two computers. Where heat is
wasted is by the clothes dryer which, as it has to, chucks warm damp
air outside and if/when warm bath or shower water goes straight down
the drain rather than being allowed to cool to room temperature. For
an estimated heat saving of somewhere around 12 to 15 cents per
shower. Also dish washer that is run couple of times a week.

Several electric bulbs that are on when bathroom is in use pretty well
heat it during most of the year; so the 500 watt thermostatically
controlled baseboard in that room rarely cuts in. There is also a 50
watt bulb outside over front door which is on about 8 - 10 hours per
nightly all year round for insurance purposes; the electricity
consumed by that item is a bit less than $20 per year. Not converted
to a CFL because so far they haven't worked well in cold weather! If/
when a suitable CFL is found; probably at a cost of say $3 to $5 the
annual consumption of that one outside light can probably be reduced
to $5 or less?

Cost: On an equal monthly payments budget plan (no interest charges)
cost is now approx. $230 (Canadian) = roughly $196 US) per month for
all energy consumed by the home. So average annual energy cost in US
dollars is a bit less than $2400.


In view of oil costs and tight new regulations about improperly
installed and protected oil tanks (only expensive delivered propane is
available) many people have and are converting to 'electric
furnaces' (either hot water or air, depending on what sytem they
have). Since most** (but not all) *of the electrcity is generated by
hydro it is also considered more ecologically viable. Also with very
reliable electricity sytem and fast repairs there are no fuel delivery
problems.

When the wind is not blowing there is definitely a reduction during
the winter in the pall of haze and smoke hanging over the downtown and
harbour area of our major provincial city. Old style 'oil heaters'
with tin chimneys have been long gone for many years and the use of
domestic oil furnaces in the many newer homes constructed during the
last twenty-thirty years pretty well unheard of.

The local electricity supplier reduced electricity rates due to lower
oil** consumption at the one an only standby thermal generating
station using Bunker C, but is proposing an approx 5 to 6 per cent
increase next year. So our per hour kilowatt cost 'may' rise to around
11 cents (Canadian) = approx 9 cents US. As other sources become
available the the thermal generating will be phased out.

Eventually the huge proposed hydro expansion at Lower Churchill, in
addition to the existing Churchill Falls, in Newfoundland-Labrador
which will be partly for export to other parts of Canada and the
northern USA may reduce rates once again.

Trust this of interest.

AZ Nomad wrote:
On Tue, 06 Oct 2009 23:21:01 -0400,
wrote:
On Tue, 6 Oct 2009 10:04:03 -0700 (PDT), ST
wrote:

I just read this from an AP article:
"Households are expected to pay an average of $783, nearly 12
percent less than last winter, for natural gas, and $1,821 for
heating oil, about 2 percent lower. People using electric heat will
pay $933, a decline of 2 percent and those using propane $1,667, or
14 percent less than last winter, the agency said."

Isn't electric the most expensive of all? Or are they saying that
people who use electric heat have that as their average bill, but
they're in warmer climes so they don't need as much heating anyway?


Your electric heating is 100% efficient. It ALL turns to heat
somewhere in the house and none is lost out the "stack". It CAN be
cheaper than propane or oil. Sometimes.
I've told many people who converted from electric to gas to leave the
electric heat installed - if gas prices spike, use the electric.

Generally, electric heat is 10 times more expensive than fossil fuels.
It has to be one hell of a fuel price spike for electric heat to be
worth

I figure natural gas costs about half of electric here in Seattle.

"AZ Nomad" wrote

Generally, electric heat is 10 times more expensive than fossil fuels.
It has to be one hell of a fuel price spike for electric heat to be worth
it. The only time electric heat can be remotely reasonable is if only
one room is heated.

I think you meant more like 10% there ;-) Your version would take a 900$
natural gas and make it 9,000$ for electric.

I think the big difference really though in the end is 'how cold does it
get' where a person is. In Georgia for example, the mere cost to install a
natural gas heat system wouldnt make sense compared to just going electric
at need. A person in Vermont, would have a different view since it runs
probably 1/2 the year or near it.

I'm the mid-zone. Gas for most of my heat needs and one room off the 'grid'
gets electric. Also, Garage gets heat augment from 2 space heaters designed
to have a setting just about 6C where they kick in at that temp.

On Tue, 06 Oct 2009 22:36:25 -0500, AZ Nomad
wrote:

On Tue, 06 Oct 2009 23:21:01 -0400, wrote:
On Tue, 6 Oct 2009 10:04:03 -0700 (PDT), ST
wrote:

I just read this from an AP article:
"Households are expected to pay an average of $783, nearly 12 percent
less than last winter, for natural gas, and $1,821 for heating oil,
about 2 percent lower. People using electric heat will pay $933, a
decline of 2 percent and those using propane $1,667, or 14 percent
less than last winter, the agency said."

Isn't electric the most expensive of all? Or are they saying that
people who use electric heat have that as their average bill, but
they're in warmer climes so they don't need as much heating anyway?


Your electric heating is 100% efficient. It ALL turns to heat
somewhere in the house and none is lost out the "stack". It CAN be
cheaper than propane or oil. Sometimes.
I've told many people who converted from electric to gas to leave the
electric heat installed - if gas prices spike, use the electric.

Generally, electric heat is 10 times more expensive than fossil fuels.
It has to be one hell of a fuel price spike for electric heat to be worth
it. The only time electric heat can be remotely reasonable is if only
one room is heated.


Definitely not necessarilly true. Many places in North America
Electric heat can compete TODAY with fossil fuels and win.

On Oct 7, 6:49*pm, wrote:
On Tue, 06 Oct 2009 22:36:25 -0500, AZ Nomad





wrote:
On Tue, 06 Oct 2009 23:21:01 -0400, wrote:
On Tue, 6 Oct 2009 10:04:03 -0700 (PDT), ST
wrote:

I just read this from an AP article:
"Households are expected to pay an average of $783, nearly 12 percent
less than last winter, for natural gas, and $1,821 for heating oil,
about 2 percent lower. People using electric heat will pay $933, a
decline of 2 percent and those using propane $1,667, or 14 percent
less than last winter, the agency said."

Isn't electric the most expensive of all? Or are they saying that
people who use electric heat have that as their average bill, but
they're in warmer climes so they don't need as much heating anyway?

Your electric heating is 100% efficient. It ALL turns to heat
somewhere in the house and none is lost out the "stack". It CAN be
cheaper than propane or oil. Sometimes.
I've told many people who converted from electric to gas to leave the
electric heat installed - if gas prices spike, use the electric.

Generally, electric heat is 10 times more expensive than fossil fuels.
It has to be one hell of a fuel price spike for electric heat to be worth
it. *The only time electric heat can be remotely reasonable is if only
one room is heated.

Definitely not necessarilly true. Many places in North America
Electric heat can compete TODAY with fossil fuels and win.

It would help if people would be clear about what they mean by
electric heat, ie do you mean resistance heat or are you including
heat pump systems? I think when most people use the term electric
heat, they mean resistance heat.

On Wed, 7 Oct 2009 16:47:46 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Oct 7, 6:49Â*pm, wrote:
On Tue, 06 Oct 2009 22:36:25 -0500, AZ Nomad





wrote:
On Tue, 06 Oct 2009 23:21:01 -0400, wrote:
On Tue, 6 Oct 2009 10:04:03 -0700 (PDT), ST
wrote:

I just read this from an AP article:
"Households are expected to pay an average of $783, nearly 12 percent
less than last winter, for natural gas, and $1,821 for heating oil,
about 2 percent lower. People using electric heat will pay $933, a
decline of 2 percent and those using propane $1,667, or 14 percent
less than last winter, the agency said."

Isn't electric the most expensive of all? Or are they saying that
people who use electric heat have that as their average bill, but
they're in warmer climes so they don't need as much heating anyway?

Your electric heating is 100% efficient. It ALL turns to heat
somewhere in the house and none is lost out the "stack". It CAN be
cheaper than propane or oil. Sometimes.
I've told many people who converted from electric to gas to leave the
electric heat installed - if gas prices spike, use the electric.

Generally, electric heat is 10 times more expensive than fossil fuels.
It has to be one hell of a fuel price spike for electric heat to be worth
it. Â*The only time electric heat can be remotely reasonable is if only
one room is heated.

Definitely not necessarilly true. Many places in North America
Electric heat can compete TODAY with fossil fuels and win.

It would help if people would be clear about what they mean by
electric heat, ie do you mean resistance heat or are you including
heat pump systems? I think when most people use the term electric
heat, they mean resistance heat.
Even resistance heat can, and does, compete favourably with propane
and oil in some areas.

On Wed, 07 Oct 2009 02:23:40 -0400, gfretwell wrote:

On Tue, 06 Oct 2009 22:36:25 -0500, AZ Nomad
wrote:

Your electric heating is 100% efficient. It ALL turns to heat
somewhere in the house and none is lost out the "stack". It CAN be
cheaper than propane or oil. Sometimes.
I've told many people who converted from electric to gas to leave the
electric heat installed - if gas prices spike, use the electric.

Generally, electric heat is 10 times more expensive than fossil fuels.

Well, see other post - we were seeing propane heat costs of about 2x elec.
heating cost last season.

You don't have to use resistive elements to have electric heat. There
are also heat pumps. If your climate is mild enough for a heat pump they
could beat gas and certainly oil or propane.

I think you can run ground-source pretty much anywhere, can't you? But
air-source craps out at about -20F (so no good up here).

I'd like to put a GSHP in one day, but I need to work out where the frost
line is first (unless that info's online anywhere, but I've not found it
yet). All I know is that the well lines are 8' down and they didn't
freeze, so it's somewhere above that ;-)

I can borrow tools and dig trenches / lay the ground loops myself, but
that's only if I can find a compnay that'll work with me and handle
equipment supply and any bits I can't do; I think a lot of them want to do
the whole job, and of course the labor for putting the loops in is $$$.

At the moment I'm probably better off replacing all the old wood-framed
windows and saving the GSHP for the next project after that (by which time
maybe there'll be more 'public domain' information available on them
and a few more folk will have documented their own experiences)

cheers

Jules

On Oct 7, 11:04*am, Jules
wrote:
..
A new 500 plus student school here is using 15 bore holes into the
ground for ground source heating. Each is, I think 50 feet deep and
will contain a vertical loop. But no reason one cannot use use
horizontal loops in trenches.

And yes word here is that air exchanger heat pumps although compact
and cheaper don't work well at low temps. So then electric heating
cuts in and one has in effect, electric heating at low temps. So one
has to consider if the extra first capital cost and complexity of a
heat pump is worthwhile and economic for the length of time and
weather conditions it works well.

As usual there is no 'magic' answer to every situation!

e.g wind power when no wind, solar power with no sun!

On Wed, 07 Oct 2009 07:37:44 -0700, stan wrote:

On Oct 7, 11:04Â*am, Jules
wrote:
.
A new 500 plus student school here is using 15 bore holes into the
ground for ground source heating. Each is, I think 50 feet deep and
will contain a vertical loop. But no reason one cannot use use
horizontal loops in trenches.

Yeah, I always thought the vertical ones were really just for sites with
less space - but thinking about it there are probably geological
advantages in certain areas too, as different types of soil are going
to affect performance and having vertical loops might be better than
horizontal there...

Unfortunately I can't imagine installing vertical myself :-) Not sure
what the installation cost is like for vertical - I know it's about
$3500 for a 90' well as I was talking to an installer last year, and it
wouldn't surprise me if it's at least half that for each of those
installed 50' loops. Costly stuff with a long-term payback...

As usual there is no 'magic' answer to every situation!

For sure.

e.g wind power when no wind

Or too much wind... :-( There do seem to be some major drawbacks both
with wind and solar (at least for electricity generation) - GSHP's seem to
be a bit more reliable in terms of performance; it's a shame they're not
talked about as much and there are still only a few companies doing
installs (and charging a fortune for it). Hopefully that'll change...

cheers

Jules

On Oct 7, 6:04*am, Jules
wrote:
On Wed, 07 Oct 2009 02:23:40 -0400, gfretwell wrote:
On Tue, 06 Oct 2009 22:36:25 -0500, AZ Nomad
wrote:

Your electric heating is 100% efficient. It ALL turns to heat
somewhere in the house and none is lost out the "stack". It CAN be
cheaper than propane or oil. Sometimes.
I've told many people who converted from electric to gas to leave the
electric heat installed - if gas prices spike, use the electric.

Generally, electric heat is 10 times more expensive than fossil fuels.

Well, see other post - we were seeing propane heat costs of about 2x elec..
heating cost last season.

You don't have to use resistive elements to have electric heat. There
are also heat pumps. If your climate is mild enough for a heat pump they
could beat gas and certainly oil or propane.

I think you can run ground-source pretty much anywhere, can't you? But
air-source craps out at about -20F (so no good up here).

I'd like to put a GSHP in one day, but I need to work out where the frost
line is first (unless that info's online anywhere, but I've not found it
yet). All I know is that the well lines are 8' down and they didn't
freeze, so it's somewhere above that ;-)

I can borrow tools and dig trenches / lay the ground loops myself, but
that's only if I can find a compnay that'll work with me and handle
equipment supply and any bits I can't do; I think a lot of them want to do
the whole job, and of course the labor for putting the loops in is $$$.

At the moment I'm probably better off replacing all the old wood-framed
windows and saving the GSHP for the next project after that (by which time
maybe there'll be more 'public domain' information available on them * *
and a few more folk will have documented their own experiences)

cheers

Jules

Where the frost line is in any area is not a subject needing study.
Just stop at whatever office issues building permits and they will
tell you.

Harry K

On Wed, 07 Oct 2009 08:16:26 -0700, harry k wrote:
Where the frost line is in any area is not a subject needing study.
Just stop at whatever office issues building permits and they will
tell you.

Interesting... I can try that - we don't actually *have* building permits
where I am, but they do in the nearby town, so if the info's with all such
places there should be an office there somewhere that has it.

thanks

Jules

On Wed, 07 Oct 2009 02:23:40 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 06 Oct 2009 22:36:25 -0500, AZ Nomad
wrote:

Your electric heating is 100% efficient. It ALL turns to heat
somewhere in the house and none is lost out the "stack". It CAN be
cheaper than propane or oil. Sometimes.
I've told many people who converted from electric to gas to leave the
electric heat installed - if gas prices spike, use the electric.

Generally, electric heat is 10 times more expensive than fossil fuels.
It has to be one hell of a fuel price spike for electric heat to be worth
it. The only time electric heat can be remotely reasonable is if only
one room is heated.

You don't have to use resistive elements to have electric heat. There
are also heat pumps. If your climate is mild enough for a heat pump
they could beat gas and certainly oil or propane.
I know a heat pump pool heater is cheaper to run than nat gas in SW
Fla because I know people with both types and very similar pools.
That is with a fairly warm ambient tho.
The country club where my wife works uses heat pumps on all 7 pools
they have because they are cheaper to operate..


A good ground source heat pump can be something like 140% efficient.
When it gets too cold, which is REAL cold, resistive electric heat can
take over - and for the short amount of time it is needed in the
average season, it does not hurt the heating budget terribly bad.

On Tue, 6 Oct 2009 10:04:03 -0700 (PDT), ST
wrote:

I just read this from an AP article:
"Households are expected to pay an average of $783, nearly 12 percent
less than last winter, for natural gas, and $1,821 for heating oil,
about 2 percent lower. People using electric heat will pay $933, a
decline of 2 percent and those using propane $1,667, or 14 percent
less than last winter, the agency said."

Isn't electric the most expensive of all? Or are they saying that
people who use electric heat have that as their average bill, but
they're in warmer climes so they don't need as much heating anyway?


Electric could be the most expensive, depends on your rate. I have
natural gas appliances and they are very reasonable to run. My
electric bill is generally 10 to 20 X higher than the natural gas
bill. USA needs many more nuclear power plants to keep electric
costs in check.

On Tue, 06 Oct 2009 13:26:51 -0400, gfretwell wrote:
Gas, particularly propane, is getting expensive compared to
electricity.

We've got about 12KW of electric heat at our place, plus a 500gal
propane tank - last Winter costs were probably evenly split between the
two (but we keep the house at 65 unlike a lot of folk who run up in the
70s, and the baseboard electric heaters are all on an off-peak rate, so
work out quite economical to run)

the heating season is about 5 nights a year, maybe a day or two

Lucky. We turned heat on about a week ago - and expect it to go off again
sometime around next April... :-)

cheers

Jules

On Tue, 06 Oct 2009 15:21:11 -0400, wrote Re
elec heat is cheap? huh?:

On Tue, 06 Oct 2009 13:26:51 -0400, gfretwell wrote:
Gas, particularly propane, is getting expensive compared to
electricity.

Here is northwest Alabama, gas has increased from $0.08 to $0.12 per
kWh delivered into the house (assuming 85% efficiency). Electricity is
$0.09/kWh this month.
--
I filter all messages from google groups.

Caesar Romano wrote in
:

On Tue, 06 Oct 2009 15:21:11 -0400, wrote Re
elec heat is cheap? huh?:

On Tue, 06 Oct 2009 13:26:51 -0400, gfretwell wrote:
Gas, particularly propane, is getting expensive compared to
electricity.

Here is northwest Alabama, gas has increased from $0.08 to $0.12 per
kWh delivered into the house (assuming 85% efficiency). Electricity is
$0.09/kWh this month.

Well her in New Jersey electricity is more like $0.14/kWh, according to
http://www.neo.ne.gov/statshtml/115.htm (googled as one of the first sites)

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

On Tue, 06 Oct 2009 15:21:11 -0400, gfretwell wrote:
It would be interesting to compare heat to A/C bills.

Hard to compare exactly, I suppose - looking at the bills the prices were
all over the darn place for elec ($0.045 some months, $0.08 others for
the off-peak) so vary a lot from month to month. I think around $100/month
was about average, though, so around $500 for a season.

I've found one propane bill for $570, 255 gallons at $2.24/gal from last
December. I think we ended up getting more in about April as it
wasn't going to quite make it the whole season, but we hardly used
any of what was put in then. Running some numbers in my head I figure we
got through about a whole 500gal tank for the season, so that's roughly
$1100 on propane.

So, somewhere around $1600/yr for heating. Problem was we only moved here
in Spring of last year, and didn't use the electric heat nearly as much
as we will this year - I suspect we can knock a few hundred off that
this time around (plus nobody had maintained the house properly for
years - I've replaced doors since, sealed around windows etc. so it
probably won't leak air quite as much as it did)

cheers

Jules

On Tue, 06 Oct 2009 13:26:51 -0400, wrote:

-snip-
Gas, particularly propane, is getting expensive compared to
electricity.

I just checked mine. Last month's propane was 30% lower than last
year's Sept delivery.

Got a start when I looked at my electric history. I track both the
stated KW/hr *and* the total bill/kWh. The stated hours have gone
down almost 50%- from 9.3cents to 4.7. But the delivery charges and
other crap has almost made up for it- 14.8 last year, 14.5 this year.

So in reality my propane has gone down 15x as much as my electricity.

We all know what happened to oil prices.

Mine went from $3.86 to $2.59. cheapest it's been since '06.

Jim

On Tue, 06 Oct 2009 16:15:12 -0400, Jim Elbrecht
wrote:

On Tue, 06 Oct 2009 13:26:51 -0400, wrote:

-snip-
Gas, particularly propane, is getting expensive compared to
electricity.

I just checked mine. Last month's propane was 30% lower than last
year's Sept delivery.

Got a start when I looked at my electric history. I track both the
stated KW/hr *and* the total bill/kWh. The stated hours have gone
down almost 50%- from 9.3cents to 4.7. But the delivery charges and
other crap has almost made up for it- 14.8 last year, 14.5 this year.

So in reality my propane has gone down 15x as much as my electricity.

We all know what happened to oil prices.

Mine went from $3.86 to $2.59. cheapest it's been since '06.

Jim
The winter is not over, and I'm sure one tank won't last the winter.
A refinery problem, or more politics in the east COULD double the cost
of the next tank - - -

wrote:

On Tue, 6 Oct 2009 10:04:03 -0700 (PDT), ST
wrote:

I just read this from an AP article:
"Households are expected to pay an average of $783, nearly 12 percent
less than last winter, for natural gas, and $1,821 for heating oil,
about 2 percent lower. People using electric heat will pay $933, a
decline of 2 percent and those using propane $1,667, or 14 percent
less than last winter, the agency said."

Isn't electric the most expensive of all? Or are they saying that
people who use electric heat have that as their average bill, but
they're in warmer climes so they don't need as much heating anyway?

Gas, particularly propane, is getting expensive compared to
electricity. We all know what happened to oil prices. You see the
signs on the pumps at the shop and rob (heating oil is basically
diesel)
I suspect the "warmer climate" thing is part of it but anyone in a
cooler place than South Florida probably uses heat pumps and they are
pretty efficient until it really gets cold.

Where I am we just have toaster wire heat but the heating season is
about 5 nights a year, maybe a day or two.

The big problem with all these type of articles is that they typically
don't properly define what type of "electric" heat, since there are
several types with quite different overall efficiencies. There is a big
difference in operating cost between electric resistive heat vs.
electric heat pump (air or ground source).