My friend is building some new concrete steps to his back porch. He
has some old chevy blocks , brake drums and general automotive iron he
wants to get rid of . If these items are clean of fluids is there any
reason we couldnt use them as fill in the steps.

Jimmie

On May 17, 6:53*pm, JIMMIE wrote:
My friend is building some new concrete steps to his back porch. He
has some old chevy blocks , brake drums and general automotive iron he
wants to get rid of . If these items are clean of fluids is there any
reason we couldnt use them as fill in the steps.

Jimmie

I would not use them because as they corrode they will at first get
bigger (Think about the flakes that come off your drums & rotors).
Then as they corrode further you could be left with a substantial
void.

If you don't want to take the junk to the scrapyard yourself then call
the junk guy. Look in either Craigslist or your local paper usually
in the cars for sale section.

Cinder blocks are cheap and sometimes free, again try craigslist.

In article , Limp Arbor wrote:
On May 17, 6:53=A0pm, JIMMIE wrote:
My friend is building some new concrete steps to his back porch. He
has some old chevy blocks , brake drums and general automotive iron he
wants to get rid of . If these items are clean of fluids is there any
reason we couldnt use them as fill in the steps.

Jimmie

I would not use them because as they corrode they will at first get
bigger (Think about the flakes that come off your drums & rotors).
Then as they corrode further you could be left with a substantial
void.

How are they going to get bigger while they're encased in concrete?

Doug Miller wrote:
In article , Limp Arbor wrote:
On May 17, 6:53=A0pm, JIMMIE wrote:
My friend is building some new concrete steps to his back porch. He
has some old chevy blocks , brake drums and general automotive iron he
wants to get rid of . If these items are clean of fluids is there any
reason we couldnt use them as fill in the steps.

Jimmie
I would not use them because as they corrode they will at first get
bigger (Think about the flakes that come off your drums & rotors).
Then as they corrode further you could be left with a substantial
void.

How are they going to get bigger while they're encased in concrete?

Big problem in Florida - lots of buildings with balconies have had to
rework the concrete. Rebar rusted, expanded and cracked the concrete.
Some problems with the issue in our condo, but nothing structural.
Building down the street, about 12 storey, had a great deal of work done
for the problem.

On Sun, 17 May 2009 20:33:40 -0400, "
wrote:

Big problem in Florida - lots of buildings with balconies have had to
rework the concrete. Rebar rusted, expanded and cracked the concrete.

Haven't they been using rebar for 50 or 100 years? Did something
change so that it rusts now?


Some problems with the issue in our condo, but nothing structural.
Building down the street, about 12 storey, had a great deal of work done
for the problem.

On May 17, 8:43*pm, mm wrote:
On Sun, 17 May 2009 20:33:40 -0400, "

wrote:
Big problem in Florida - lots of buildings with balconies have had to
rework the concrete. *Rebar rusted, expanded and cracked the concrete.

Haven't they been using rebar for 50 or 100 years? *Did something
change so that it rusts now?

No, you've been sleeping or in a coma. It's always rusted.

R

mm wrote:
On Sun, 17 May 2009 20:33:40 -0400, "
wrote:

Big problem in Florida - lots of buildings with balconies have had to
rework the concrete. Rebar rusted, expanded and cracked the concrete.

Haven't they been using rebar for 50 or 100 years? Did something
change so that it rusts now?


Perhaps the problem in Florida is with buildings not kept adequately
painted, so there is more salt intrusion. Don't know the reasons.

Some problems with the issue in our condo, but nothing structural.
Building down the street, about 12 storey, had a great deal of work done
for the problem.

New Obama law, maybe. The Rusting of Rebar Act of 2009.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"mm" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 17 May 2009 20:33:40 -0400, "
wrote:

Big problem in Florida - lots of buildings with balconies
have had to
rework the concrete. Rebar rusted, expanded and cracked
the concrete.

Haven't they been using rebar for 50 or 100 years? Did
something
change so that it rusts now?

On May 17, 8:00*pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:

How are they going to get bigger while they're encased in concrete?

It really surprises me that you have such problems understanding
this. Your personal observation of those funky brown stains on
concrete structures everywhere should indicate that something is
rusting. If you can't see what's rusting, and are keen enough to
realize that rust doesn't just magically appear on concrete, you'll
probably latch on that the rust is coming from inside the concrete.

In a nutshell. Concrete is not waterproof. It wicks up moisture.
The steel doesn't care that it is encased in concrete and will rust in
the presence of the H2O. Concrete sucks in tension - something on the
order of 1/10 its strength in compression. Constant tension on
concrete leads to cracking. Cracking allows in more moisture, and the
cycle continues until the structure falls apart.

Please, DAG. There's a hole in your education.

R

In article , RicodJour wrote:
On May 17, 8:00=A0pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:

How are they going to get bigger while they're encased in concrete?

It really surprises me that you have such problems understanding
this. Your personal observation of those funky brown stains on
concrete structures everywhere should indicate that something is
rusting. If you can't see what's rusting, and are keen enough to
realize that rust doesn't just magically appear on concrete, you'll
probably latch on that the rust is coming from inside the concrete.

In a nutshell. Concrete is not waterproof. It wicks up moisture.
The steel doesn't care that it is encased in concrete and will rust in
the presence of the H2O. Concrete sucks in tension - something on the
order of 1/10 its strength in compression. Constant tension on
concrete leads to cracking. Cracking allows in more moisture, and the
cycle continues until the structure falls apart.

I guess all those engineers who've been building things with steel-reinforced
concrete for all these years must be completely ignorant, huh?

On May 18, 7:57*am, (Doug Miller) wrote:
RicodJour wrote:
On May 17, 8:00=A0pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:

How are they going to get bigger while they're encased in concrete?

It really surprises me that you have such problems understanding
this. *Your personal observation of those funky brown stains on
concrete structures everywhere should indicate that something is
rusting. *If you can't see what's rusting, and are keen enough to
realize that rust doesn't just magically appear on concrete, you'll
probably latch on that the rust is coming from inside the concrete.

In a nutshell. *Concrete is not waterproof. *It wicks up moisture.
The steel doesn't care that it is encased in concrete and will rust in
the presence of the H2O. *Concrete sucks in tension - something on the
order of 1/10 its strength in compression. *Constant tension on
concrete leads to cracking. *Cracking allows in more moisture, and the
cycle continues until the structure falls apart.

I guess all those engineers who've been building things with steel-reinforced
concrete for all these years must be completely ignorant, huh?

From the results, some of them obviously were.

Your stance is that you can throw steel into a concrete pour and it
doesn't do anything because, hell, rebar is steel. That's like saying
that you can pour gas anywhere into a car since a car runs on gas.
You know, nonsense.

Like I said, if you want to learn, Google the subject. I'll give you
a head start. This is from Wiki on reinforced concrete:

"Common failure modes of steel reinforced concrete
Reinforced concrete can fail due to inadequate strength, leading to
mechanical failure, or due to a reduction in its durability. Corrosion
and freeze/thaw cycles may damage poorly designed or constructed
reinforced concrete. When rebar corrodes, the oxidation products
(rust) expand and tends to flake, cracking the concrete and unbonding
the rebar from the concrete."

And this is from the Canadian Research Council:

"PREVENTING REBAR CORROSION IN CONCRETE STRUCTURES
by Shiyuan Qian

This article reviews the issue of rebar corrosion, discusses some of
the preventive technologies available, and presents information on
recent studies conducted by NRC’s Institute for Research in
Construction.

The corrosion of reinforcing steel bars is one of the main causes of
deterioration of reinforced concrete structures in North America. It
has become a serious, widespread problem, with repair costs now in the
billions of dollars annually. Whether the corroding rebars are seen
exposed on delaminated bridge decks or
piers, or observed in damaged parking garages, engineers and
contractors are all too familiar with the problem, as are anxious
property owners who call on them to provide solutions."

It's either odd that;
1). these guys are in collusion and making this stuff up
or
2). you've never noticed it.

My bet is on the second.

The main reason that the OP shouldn't throw the scrap iron in the
steps is because it is wasting money. The second reason is that the
random steel "reinforcing" will eventually cause problems.

I'm taking the liberty of cross posting this to some other groups with
more knowledge on construction than this one. Let's see who weighs in
and which way the verdict goes.

R

Doug Miller wrote:
In article , RicodJour wrote:
On May 17, 8:00=A0pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
How are they going to get bigger while they're encased in concrete?
It really surprises me that you have such problems understanding
this. Your personal observation of those funky brown stains on
concrete structures everywhere should indicate that something is
rusting. If you can't see what's rusting, and are keen enough to
realize that rust doesn't just magically appear on concrete, you'll
probably latch on that the rust is coming from inside the concrete.

In a nutshell. Concrete is not waterproof. It wicks up moisture.
The steel doesn't care that it is encased in concrete and will rust in
the presence of the H2O. Concrete sucks in tension - something on the
order of 1/10 its strength in compression. Constant tension on
concrete leads to cracking. Cracking allows in more moisture, and the
cycle continues until the structure falls apart.

I guess all those engineers who've been building things with steel-reinforced
concrete for all these years must be completely ignorant, huh?

I think it is a matter of construction and maintenance, not engineering.
On our condo, there have been several areas where rust caused bursting
of the concrete. Perhaps rebar was too close to the surface, or cracks
in stucco not patched and painted, allowing moisture and salt intrusion.
Another place was a concrete sill by a patio slider. We also have
iron railings on our balconies and atrium deck which are embedded in
structural concrete. They are the same railings used inside condo units
- the anchor is embedded and then the railings bolt onto the achors.
The exterior ones rusted badly years ago, to the extent that some rusted
through and the attachment was no longer identifiable. Along the atrium
deck (second story), several places where the anchors protrude busted
out the concrete. After grinding out the rust and patching and
painting, they hold for several years without further bursting of the
concrete. Enough anchors intact that nothing is loose. Several years
ago, it was a pretty big issue for condominium management companies -
can probably google up more info if you are interested. Perhaps it
isn't an issue at all if not near salt water.

On May 17, 6:53*pm, JIMMIE wrote:
My friend is building some new concrete steps to his back porch. He
has some old chevy blocks , brake drums and general automotive iron he
wants to get rid of . If these items are clean of fluids is there any
reason we couldnt use them as fill in the steps.

One reason is that you'd be ****ing away money. Call up a scrap
dealer and ask what they pay for scrap iron, he's probably got a few
bucks on the hoof there.

Another reason is that iron has a tendency to rust. When it rusts it
expands. This would put the concrete in tension and concrete really
doesn't like to be put in tension. In other words it would tend to
break up the steps.

Use rocks, brick, or other busted up concrete if you need some filler.

R

In article , RicodJour wrote:
On May 17, 6:53=A0pm, JIMMIE wrote:
My friend is building some new concrete steps to his back porch. He
has some old chevy blocks , brake drums and general automotive iron he
wants to get rid of . If these items are clean of fluids is there any
reason we couldnt use them as fill in the steps.

One reason is that you'd be ****ing away money. Call up a scrap
dealer and ask what they pay for scrap iron, he's probably got a few
bucks on the hoof there.

Another reason is that iron has a tendency to rust. When it rusts it
expands. This would put the concrete in tension and concrete really
doesn't like to be put in tension. In other words it would tend to
break up the steps.

Oh, for heaven's sake. Haven't you ever heard of rebar?

On May 17, 8:01*pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , RicodJour wrote:

On May 17, 6:53=A0pm, JIMMIE wrote:
My friend is building some new concrete steps to his back porch. He
has some old chevy blocks , brake drums and general automotive iron he
wants to get rid of . If these items are clean of fluids is there any
reason we couldnt use them as fill in the steps.

One reason is that you'd be ****ing away money. *Call up a scrap
dealer and ask what they pay for scrap iron, he's probably got a few
bucks on the hoof there.

Another reason is that iron has a tendency to rust. *When it rusts it
expands. *This would put the concrete in tension and concrete really
doesn't like to be put in tension. *In other words it would tend to
break up the steps.

Oh, for heaven's sake. Haven't you ever heard of rebar?

Hey, Sparky, if it doesn't take too much time away from you being
snarky, why don't you Google "code concrete rebar coverage"? You'll
learn something.

R

Doug Miller wrote:
In article , RicodJour wrote:
On May 17, 6:53=A0pm, JIMMIE wrote:
My friend is building some new concrete steps to his back porch. He
has some old chevy blocks , brake drums and general automotive iron he
wants to get rid of . If these items are clean of fluids is there any
reason we couldnt use them as fill in the steps.
One reason is that you'd be ****ing away money. Call up a scrap
dealer and ask what they pay for scrap iron, he's probably got a few
bucks on the hoof there.

Another reason is that iron has a tendency to rust. When it rusts it
expands. This would put the concrete in tension and concrete really
doesn't like to be put in tension. In other words it would tend to
break up the steps.

Oh, for heaven's sake. Haven't you ever heard of rebar?

Uh Huh. And I see plenty of bridge pillars around here (in salt country)
where the rebar has rusted, expanded in diameter, and whole sections of
surface concrete have spalled off, exposing the rebar grid. That is why
they have switched to epoxy-coated rebar for road work in this part of
country. Bulk iron buried deeply in the center fill of a porch stoop is
less likely to cause problems, but, but it offers no advantages over a
proper tied-and-blocked rebar armature to pour around. I'd haul it to
scrap dealer (if convenient), or offer it on craigslist or freecycle, if
I didn't feel like hauling it.

--
aem sends...

On Sun, 17 May 2009 16:26:08 -0700 (PDT), RicodJour
wrote:


Another reason is that iron has a tendency to rust. When it rusts it
expands. This would put the concrete in tension and concrete really
doesn't like to be put in tension.

Who likes tension? I don't like tension! For gosh sakes shut up about
the tension or I'll....

In other words it would tend to
break up the steps.

This is MM's sister. MM has been taken to the hospital and won't be
available for posting until the court-ordered psychiatrist has
examined him and filed his report.

On Sun, 17 May 2009 15:53:11 -0700 (PDT), JIMMIE
wrote:

My friend is building some new concrete steps to his back porch. He
has some old chevy blocks , brake drums and general automotive iron he
wants to get rid of . If these items are clean of fluids is there any
reason we couldnt use them as fill in the steps.

Jimmie


I don't think I would use what you have, someone would likely
be happy to take them off your hands for the scrap value.

On the other hand, I can remember my father using some old bed
springs to re-enforce the front porch of our home about 60 years ago.
It looks like that slab is still there in one piece.

If he wants to get rid of the metal, just put it out by the curb on a
non-trash-pickup day and people driving by will pick it up as scrap metal to
sell to a recycle yard.

"JIMMIE" wrote in message
...
My friend is building some new concrete steps to his back porch. He
has some old chevy blocks , brake drums and general automotive iron he
wants to get rid of . If these items are clean of fluids is there any
reason we couldnt use them as fill in the steps.

Jimmie

"JIMMIE" wrote in message
...
My friend is building some new concrete steps to his back porch. He
has some old chevy blocks , brake drums and general automotive iron he
wants to get rid of . If these items are clean of fluids is there any
reason we couldnt use them as fill in the steps.

Jimmie

Tell him not to throw parts under the trailer to begin with. Scrap metal is
worth at least a 12 pack, that should get him moving.

"JIMMIE" wrote in message
...
My friend is building some new concrete steps to his back porch. He
has some old chevy blocks , brake drums and general automotive iron he
wants to get rid of . If these items are clean of fluids is there any
reason we couldnt use them as fill in the steps.

Jimmie

There are worth a lot more at the recycle center.

In article
,
JIMMIE wrote:

My friend is building some new concrete steps to his back porch. He
has some old chevy blocks , brake drums and general automotive iron he
wants to get rid of . If these items are clean of fluids is there any
reason we couldnt use them as fill in the steps.

Jimmie

After reading 26 other replies, concerning the alleged value* of scrap
metal and the problems of rusting rebar, I'd say the best thing to do
would be to fashion the auto parts into steps by welding them together.
Skip the concrete altogether.

*(last i checked, scrap steel isn't worth the gas to drive it to the
recycling center.)

On May 19, 11:58*am, Smitty Two wrote:

After reading 26 other replies, concerning the alleged value* of scrap
metal and the problems of rusting rebar, I'd say the best thing to do
would be to fashion the auto parts into steps by welding them together.
Skip the concrete altogether.

I like it!

*(last i checked, scrap steel isn't worth the gas to drive it to the
recycling center.)

Presently about 4 cents a pound around here. The OP wrote "He
has some old chevy blocks , brake drums and general automotive iron".
How many is some? Not one, probably not two unless the guy chooses
words at random, so three of more blocks, figure a couple hundred
pounds per, brake drums don't float away... I'd hazard a wild-assed
guess of between a quarter and half a ton. So maybe twenty or forty
bucks. Around here they'll come get it - they pay less, but it's free
rubbish removal.

R

On May 19, 12:47*pm, RicodJour wrote:
On May 19, 11:58*am, Smitty Two wrote:



After reading 26 other replies, concerning the alleged value* of scrap
metal and the problems of rusting rebar, I'd say the best thing to do
would be to fashion the auto parts into steps by welding them together.
Skip the concrete altogether.

I like it!

*(last i checked, scrap steel isn't worth the gas to drive it to the
recycling center.)

Presently about 4 cents a pound around here. *The OP wrote "He
has some old chevy blocks , brake drums and general automotive iron".
How many is some? *Not one, probably not two unless the guy chooses
words at random, so three of more blocks, figure a couple hundred
pounds per, brake drums don't float away... *I'd hazard a wild-assed
guess of between a quarter and half a ton. *So maybe twenty or forty
bucks. *Around here they'll come get it - they pay less, but it's free
rubbish removal.

R

No one will come get it and its about a 20 mile drive one way to haul
it off. It would probably take two trips, If we cant put it in the
steps we are going to bury it. The junk came with the house. There is
a welder, we may weld some of the stuff together so it will actually
become part of the structure of the steps instead of just randomly
placing them inside.

Half ton sounds about right.

Jimmie

On May 19, 3:09*pm, JIMMIE wrote:
On May 19, 12:47*pm, RicodJour wrote:



On May 19, 11:58*am, Smitty Two wrote:

After reading 26 other replies, concerning the alleged value* of scrap
metal and the problems of rusting rebar, I'd say the best thing to do
would be to fashion the auto parts into steps by welding them together.

JIMMIE wrote:

No one will come get it and its about a 20 mile drive one way to haul
it off. It would probably take two trips, If we cant put it in the
steps we are going to bury it. The junk came with the house. There is
a welder, we may weld some of the stuff together so it will actually
become part of the structure of the steps instead of just randomly
placing them inside.

Half ton sounds about right.


I have a few properties in various locations and whenever I want to get rid
of scrap metal I just put it out by the curb. Someone always sees it,
stops, and loads it into a pickup truck they are drivng that is full of
other scrap metal. I never call anyone to ask them to come and pick it up.
If it's a property on a reasonably busy street, it's usually gone within an
hour or two. For the properties that are on side residential streets, it
often takes longer, but never more than about 1/2-day to a day for someone
to stop and take it. I put everything out there -- cast iron, sewer pipes,
iron, steel, cast iron tubs, lead, and of course aluminim, copper, copper
wire, etc. It doesn't matter what I put out there -- they always take it.

I'd bet that if you tried putting it out there, it will get taken. You
could try it with some of the smaller pieces first to see what happens. The
good part is that it does get recycled and reused -- which I like. And, the
poeple who pick it up get a few bucks for it -- that's why they stop -- and
it's easy for them because they are not making a special trip. They just
see it along the road, stop and throw it in their truck, and when the truck
is full, they take it all to a recycle place.