Up until the sixties and seventies on the weekends I used to see
people in their driveways and garages repairing or doing maintenance
on their cars. I hardly ever see that anymore. It used to be that if
you wanted to have your car repaired you could just go to any repair
shop. Today you have to consider what the repair involves. If it’s
something complicated you need to take it to the dealer and pay the
big bucks or same time next year you’re probably going to have the
same problem. To know why this is just lift up the hood of a car from
that era and then do the same thing to an automobile today.

Thank you, Captain Obvious.


"Molly Brown" wrote in message
...
Up until the sixties and seventies on the weekends I used to see
people in their driveways and garages repairing or doing maintenance
on their cars. I hardly ever see that anymore. It used to be that if
you wanted to have your car repaired you could just go to any repair
shop. Today you have to consider what the repair involves. If it’s
something complicated you need to take it to the dealer and pay the
big bucks or same time next year you’re probably going to have the
same problem. To know why this is just lift up the hood of a car from
that era and then do the same thing to an automobile today.

"Molly Brown" wrote in message
...
Up until the sixties and seventies on the weekends I used to see
people in their driveways and garages repairing or doing maintenance
on their cars. I hardly ever see that anymore. It used to be that if
you wanted to have your car repaired you could just go to any repair
shop. Today you have to consider what the repair involves. If it’s
something complicated you need to take it to the dealer and pay the
big bucks or same time next year you’re probably going to have the
same problem. To know why this is just lift up the hood of a car from
that era and then do the same thing to an automobile today.


I remember car maintenance in the 50's and 60's
Change oil every 3000,
points, condenser, plugs, air filter every 5000 6000 miles...

Thank God that's gone.
No distributor to fuss with.
My book sez "change plugs at 100K miles",
Change oil when the light comes on ( usually 6000 mi. )
And somehow, they've positioned the air intake
so my air filter doesn't really get dirty !
New paints mean wax once a year... ( if that )

It's worth the $20+ for a shop to change the oil & filter.
Too many home mechanics used to dump it in the ground,
or in the storm sewers......

About the only job left for me is filling the gas tank,
and the windshield washer reservoir.....
( and since they've sized it up to a gallon,
even that is a rare job.)

On May 8, 12:40*pm, Molly Brown wrote:
Up until the sixties and seventies on the weekends I used to see
people in their driveways and garages repairing or doing maintenance
on their cars. I hardly ever see that anymore. It used to be that if
you wanted to have your car repaired you could just go to any repair
shop. Today you have to consider what the repair involves. If it’s
something complicated you need to take it to the dealer and pay the
big bucks or same time next year you’re probably going to have the
same problem. To know why this is just lift up the hood of a car from
that era and then do the same thing to an automobile today.

While your observation may be true, your analysis and conclusion are
complete ridiculous.

If complexity of cars/engines is the reason for fewer shade-tree
mechanics, then for non-complex jobs, the people doing it would have
remained constant. For example, changing the oil is very simple and
not much more complex than it was 30 years ago. So if fewer people
are changing their own oil, then there's a reason other than engine
complexity because engine complexity doesn't factor in to an oil
change.

I would guess that a number of other reasons have a larger influence
on car repairs than engine complexity. Among the likely reasons would
be:

Cars are more reliable and need fewer repairs, so the total number of
repairs per car is going down. In fact, engine complexity might be
responsible for this as points and carburetors have been eliminated.

Lifestyle changes including more single women who do not have "a man
to fix the car".

Employment changes including the shift from mechanical/blue collar
jobs to office/white collar jobs so that many people do not have basic
skills and tools.

Change in retail so that more places are open evenings and weekends.

Air conditioning. People are not comfortable going out in the sun/
heat and working.

TV and other entertainment. The generation that worked on their cars
did not spend the weekend watching TV or playing video games.

I am sure there are others and it would be fun to see what other
people think. But as for the OP, I am pretty sure she is dead wrong.
One must be careful when trying to figure out cause and effect.

"Pat" wrote:
[snip]

TV and other entertainment. The generation that worked on their cars
did not spend the weekend watching TV or playing video games.

More like it's because people are too lazy to actually do work anymore, let
alone actually *learn* about something that requires it.

This is linked with a major decline in common sense, the main culprit of
which is a steadfast refusal to accept reality over fantasy in our society.

Jon

Jon Danniken wrote:

More like it's because people are too lazy to actually do work
anymore, let alone actually *learn* about something that requires it.

This is linked with a major decline in common sense, the main culprit
of which is a steadfast refusal to accept reality over fantasy in our
society.
Jon

Pretty much the same complaint can be heard going back to ancient Greece.
It is as valid now as it was back then, "People these days, let me tell
ya...."

My wife or I can drop off a vehicle at the shop, they run us to work and
come and get us at the end of the day, all the scheduled maintenance has
been done while we work. We get back home and go to work on the yard, or I
hack away at some project in the garage, or.... Laziness and ignorance
don't appear to enter into it. Sorry if that doesn't line up with you
gripe, but feel free to wave you cane from the porch while you're yelling at
those kids to stay off your lawn.

Jon Danniken wrote:
"Pat" wrote:
[snip]

TV and other entertainment. The generation that worked on their cars
did not spend the weekend watching TV or playing video games.


More like it's because people are too lazy to actually do work anymore, let
alone actually *learn* about something that requires it.

This is linked with a major decline in common sense, the main culprit of
which is a steadfast refusal to accept reality over fantasy in our society.

Jon




Yep, common sense isn't very common anymore.....

(One of my earlier sig lines...)

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
The speed of light is 1.8*10^12 furlongs per fortnight.

jeff_wisnia wrote in
eonecommunications:

Jon Danniken wrote:
"Pat" wrote:
[snip]

TV and other entertainment. The generation that worked on their cars
did not spend the weekend watching TV or playing video games.


More like it's because people are too lazy to actually do work
anymore, let alone actually *learn* about something that requires it.

This is linked with a major decline in common sense, the main culprit
of which is a steadfast refusal to accept reality over fantasy in our
society.

Jon




Yep, common sense isn't very common anymore.....

Reminds me of something I heard just the other day...

"You're the smartest Down Syndrome person I know".


(One of my earlier sig lines...)

Jeff

On May 8, 1:48*pm, "Jon Danniken"
wrote:
"Pat" wrote:

*[snip]



TV and other entertainment. The generation that worked on their cars
did not spend the weekend watching TV or playing video games.

More like it's because people are too lazy to actually do work anymore, let
alone actually *learn* about something that requires it.

This is linked with a major decline in common sense, the main culprit of
which is a steadfast refusal to accept reality over fantasy in our society.

Jon

a lot of cars nowadays, you can't even take the oil filter out from
above, you have to have it up on a lift.

on 5/8/2009 10:16 PM (ET) z wrote the following:
On May 8, 1:48 pm, "Jon Danniken"
wrote:

"Pat" wrote:

[snip]




TV and other entertainment. The generation that worked on their cars
did not spend the weekend watching TV or playing video games.

More like it's because people are too lazy to actually do work anymore, let
alone actually *learn* about something that requires it.

This is linked with a major decline in common sense, the main culprit of
which is a steadfast refusal to accept reality over fantasy in our society.

Jon


a lot of cars nowadays, you can't even take the oil filter out from
above, you have to have it up on a lift.

For my 97 Nissan PU, I have to take the rubber splash shield off in the
passenger side wheel well.

--

Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
To email, remove the double zeroes after @

On Fri, 8 May 2009 19:16:54 -0700 (PDT), z
wrote:

On May 8, 1:48*pm, "Jon Danniken"
wrote:
"Pat" wrote:

*[snip]



TV and other entertainment. The generation that worked on their cars
did not spend the weekend watching TV or playing video games.

More like it's because people are too lazy to actually do work anymore, let
alone actually *learn* about something that requires it.

This is linked with a major decline in common sense, the main culprit of
which is a steadfast refusal to accept reality over fantasy in our society.

Jon

a lot of cars nowadays, you can't even take the oil filter out from
above, you have to have it up on a lift.

Or crawl underneath, or use jacks or ramps, or build a pit. All of
them a lot cheaper than a lift.

On Sun, 10 May 2009 20:54:03 -0400, mm
wrote:

On Fri, 8 May 2009 19:16:54 -0700 (PDT), z
wrote:

On May 8, 1:48Â*pm, "Jon Danniken"
wrote:
"Pat" wrote:

Â*[snip]



TV and other entertainment. The generation that worked on their cars
did not spend the weekend watching TV or playing video games.

More like it's because people are too lazy to actually do work anymore, let
alone actually *learn* about something that requires it.

This is linked with a major decline in common sense, the main culprit of
which is a steadfast refusal to accept reality over fantasy in our society.

Jon

a lot of cars nowadays, you can't even take the oil filter out from
above, you have to have it up on a lift.

Or crawl underneath, or use jacks or ramps, or build a pit. All of
them a lot cheaper than a lift.


A pit, HIGH ramps or a lift are required for many. Doing it on your
back on normal ramps or jackstands would be very difficult and even
more messy.

My 3.8 TransSport was bad enough on a hoist.
As is the 2.5 Mystique.

"Jon Danniken" wrote in
:

"Pat" wrote:
[snip]

TV and other entertainment. The generation that worked on their cars
did not spend the weekend watching TV or playing video games.

More like it's because people are too lazy to actually do work
anymore, let alone actually *learn* about something that requires it.

This is linked with a major decline in common sense, the main culprit
of which is a steadfast refusal to accept reality over fantasy in our
society.

Jon



I agree with you on the lazy people thing Jon. There's a lot of things
people don't do that they used to do without thinking twice. Some examples:

(Oh, and don't forget the Dealer Only $ecial tools often required.)

--

I still change my own oil because I want to know what kind of oil is going
in it. I would have no idea if Econo-Change is putting in Castrol or
Walmart Super Tech oil. The last oil change I just did cost me $15 for a
filter and 5qts of like Castrol. I could have gone up to a local chain shop
here and got an oil change and filter for $13. People see cheaper and don't
have to do **** and assume it's a no-brainer.

--

There are so many transverse engines these days. And they make what used to
be a simple task a major event.

For example, on my Mitsu 3000GT the water pump went. On GM pickups I used
to have you could get one for 20 bucks, loosen easily accessable bolts
right on the front of the engine and swapo. Heck, those older vehicles, if
it were raining you could get in the engine campartment with a drop light
and close the hood to stay dry :-) OK, so mine weren't 454's or the like.

On the Mitsu so much crap has to be removed it's not funny. Transverse
mounted, no room to work, Even the dealer shop spec is like 5hrs. Pump is
on the side of course. One of the things that has to be removed is timing
belt covers. Might as well replace that too if you're near some 60k
interval.

--

Oil pan gasket leaking on another vehicle. Used to be a piece of cake.
Loosen the bolts, drop, new gasket, put back. Not even a 6pk job. Now
sometimes you gotta loosen motor mounts and/or jack engines and/or jack
transmissions and/or disconnect exhaust pipes or some other lines.

--

Change spark plugs..used to be a) take em out b) put new ones in.

On a particular transverse engine.

1. Remove Center Cover from Front Bank Valve Cover

This plastic plate is held in by the 8 bolts at its edges and covers the
front spark plug wires/wells. Use either a large Phillips screwdriver or a
10mm socket. Picture shown with plate removed.


2. Remove Wiring Harnesses from Left Side of Intake Plenum

Two 10mm bolts hold the bracket to the left side of the intake plenum.
Remove the bolts and push the connectors away from the plenum. It is not
necessary to unplug the connectors.


3. Remove the Front Wiring Harness Rail


Two 10mm bolts hold the wiring rail to the front of the intake plenum.
Remove the bolts and pull the rail away from the plenum.

4. Remove the Accelerator Cable Bracket


Two 10mm bolts (5 N*m) hold the accelerator cable to the rear of the intake
plenum. Remove the bolts and pull the bracket away from the plenum. Leave
the accelerator cable attached to the throttle body. Note when reinstalling
the bracket, adjust the bracket position so that there is minimal play in
the cable, but be sure that the throttle plate is completely closed when
you are not pulling on the cable!

5. Disconnect the Intake Pipe, PCV Hose,
Fuel Pressure Vacuum Hose, And Brake Booster Hose

---Loosen the two hose clamps at the ends of the intake pipe.
---Remove the Positive Crankcase Ventilation (PCV) Hose from the intake
pipe. If it is stuck, twist the end near the intake pipe carefully before
pulling it off.
---Disconnect both ends of the intake pipe and lift it out of the engine
bay. The fittings are pretty tight, so you may have to wiggle it a bit to
get it loose.
---Remove the brake booster vacuum hose by pinching the clamp to loosen it
and then slide the hose off the nipple on the plenum.
---Remove the vacuum hose that goes to the fuel pressure regulator by
sliding the hose off of the protrusion on the intake plenum. As with other
hoses, if it is stuck, grasp the hose near the end and carefully twist it
about the protrusion so as to break it free. It will then slide off.

6. Remove the Throttle Body Stay Bolt

One 12mm (18 N*m) bolt secures the rear of the throttle body to the engine.
Remove the bolt. Pretty, shiny throttle body courtesy Mopar Combustion
Chamber Cleaner (Chrysler P/N 04318001).

7. Remove the Throttle Body

Four 12mm bolts (13 N*m) attach the throttle body to the intake plenum.
Remove the bolts, and the throttle body will now be free from the plenum
and its mounting bolt. Gently pull the throttle body away from the plenum,
being careful not to lose the gasket (next step). Note that the throttle
body will still be attached to some coolant lines and some vacuum lines, so
do not attempt to remove the throttle body from the engine bay.

8. Remove the Throttle Body Gasket

The throttle body gasket is in between the throttle body and the intake
plenum. Remove it, making note of the direction in which it is installed.
Do not reinstall the used gasket - replace it with a new one!

9. Remove the Intake Plenum Stay Bolts

There are three 12mm (18 N*m) bolts that secure the rear of the intake
plenum to the engine. Remove the bolts, noting that one bolt also secures a
grounding cable to the chassis.

10. Remove the VIC Motor Wiring Harnesses

There are two wiring harnesses attached to the Variable Induction Control
(VIC) Motor. There is a silver wire clip (looks like a paper clip) that
surrounds the harness connector. Carefully remove this with a small
screwdriver. Then the harness connector will just slide off.

11. Remove the Remaining Intake Plenum Bolts

There are five more 12mm bolts (18 N*m) and two 12mm nuts (18 N*m) that
attach the intake plenum to the intake manifold. Remove the bolts and the
nuts, being careful not to let the lock washers or the nuts fall down into
the murky depths of the engine bay, lest you never see them again.

12. Lift the Intake Plenum Out of the Engine Bay

At this point, the intake plenum is not connected to the engine, so you can
simply lift it out. Do this carefully, and lift straight up until you clear
the posts on the manifold. The picture shows the plenum partially lifted
out, but not removed. You can also see the metal plenum-manifold gasket on
top of the intake manifold.

13. Remove the Intake Plenum Gasket

The intake plenum gasket lies between the manifold and the plenum and can
be removed once the plenum is removed. This gasket must be replaced
whenever the intake plenum is removed, as should all such gaskets. You now
have access to all 6 spark plugs and wires. A few points of interest and
the cylinder numbers have been labeled for reference.

14. Remove the Coil-side Connections of the Ignition Wires

Gently pull straight up. Repeat for remaining 5 cylinders. Note that the
numbers are actually printed on the engine approximately where the green
numbers are located. From the front of the car, the connections a 6, 3,
5, 2, 4, 1.

15. Remove the Plug-side Connections of the Ignition Wires

Again, gently pull straight up; repeat for remaining 5 cylinders.

16. Remove Spark Plugs

With your spark plug socket on a 6" extension attached to your socket
wrench, gently remove the spark plugs from the spark plug wells. As you
remove the spark plugs, place them somewhere where you can later remember
which plug came from which cylinder as this can help diagnose problems.
When replacing the spark plugs, tighten them to 25 N*m with your torque
wrench so you don't strip the threads!

17. Reverse the Instructions to Reinstall Everything

On May 8, 10:32*pm, Red Green wrote:
"Jon Danniken" wrote :



"Pat" wrote:
*[snip]

TV and other entertainment. The generation that worked on their cars
did not spend the weekend watching TV or playing video games.

More like it's because people are too lazy to actually do work
anymore, let alone actually *learn* about something that requires it.

This is linked with a major decline in common sense, the main culprit
of which is a steadfast refusal to accept reality over fantasy in our
society.

Jon

I agree with you on the lazy people thing Jon. There's a lot of things
people don't do that they used to do without thinking twice. Some examples:

(Oh, and don't forget the Dealer Only $ecial tools often required.)

--

I still change my own oil because I want to know what kind of oil is going
in it. I would have no idea if Econo-Change is putting in Castrol or
Walmart Super Tech oil. The last oil change I just did cost me $15 for a
filter and 5qts of like Castrol. I could have gone up to a local chain shop
here and got an oil change and filter for $13. People see cheaper and don't
have to do **** and assume it's a no-brainer.

--

There are so many transverse engines these days. And they make what used to
be a simple task a major event.

For example, on my Mitsu 3000GT the water pump went. On GM pickups I used
to have you could get one for 20 bucks, loosen easily accessable bolts
right on the front of the engine and swapo. Heck, those older vehicles, if
it were raining you could get in the engine campartment with a drop light
and close the hood to stay dry :-) OK, so mine weren't 454's or the like.

On the Mitsu so much crap has to be removed it's not funny. Transverse
mounted, no room to work, Even the dealer shop spec is like 5hrs. Pump is
on the side of course. One of the things that has to be removed is timing *
belt covers. Might as well replace that too if you're near some 60k
interval.

--

Oil pan gasket leaking on another vehicle. Used to be a piece of cake.
Loosen the bolts, drop, new gasket, put back. Not even a 6pk job. Now
sometimes you gotta loosen motor mounts and/or jack engines and/or jack
transmissions and/or disconnect exhaust pipes or some other lines.

--

Change spark plugs..used to be a) take em out b) put new ones in.

True, but I just had some major work done on my engine. So as they
were taking bits and pieces off, I had the change the wires on the
back side (its a van, so it's tough). While the old wire were easy,
this is the first change of wires in 130,000 miles and I wouldn't have
had it done expect they were in the neighborhood, anyways.

This is the first major repair I have had on the vehicle. Not too
bad.

Two cars ago, I went 200,000 miles on the original CLUTCH !!!




On a particular transverse engine.

*1. *Remove Center Cover from Front Bank Valve Cover

This plastic plate is held in by the 8 bolts at its edges and covers the
front spark plug wires/wells. Use either a large Phillips screwdriver or a
10mm socket. Picture shown with plate removed.

2. *Remove Wiring Harnesses from Left Side of Intake Plenum

Two 10mm bolts hold the bracket to the left side of the intake plenum.
Remove the bolts and push the connectors away from the plenum. It is not
necessary to unplug the connectors.

3. *Remove the Front Wiring Harness Rail

Two 10mm bolts hold the wiring rail to the front of the intake plenum.
Remove the bolts and pull the rail away from the plenum.

4. *Remove the Accelerator Cable Bracket

Two 10mm bolts (5 N*m) hold the accelerator cable to the rear of the intake
plenum. Remove the bolts and pull the bracket away from the plenum. Leave
the accelerator cable attached to the throttle body. Note when reinstalling
the bracket, adjust the bracket position so that there is minimal play in
the cable, but be sure that the throttle plate is completely closed when
you are not pulling on the cable!

5. *Disconnect the Intake Pipe, PCV Hose,
Fuel Pressure Vacuum Hose, And Brake Booster Hose

---Loosen the two hose clamps at the ends of the intake pipe.
---Remove the Positive Crankcase Ventilation (PCV) Hose from the intake
pipe. If it is stuck, twist the end near the intake pipe carefully before
pulling it off.
---Disconnect both ends of the intake pipe and lift it out of the engine
bay. The fittings are pretty tight, so you may have to wiggle it a bit to
get it loose.
---Remove the brake booster vacuum hose by pinching the clamp to loosen it
and then slide the hose off the nipple on the plenum.
---Remove the vacuum hose that goes to the fuel pressure regulator by
sliding the hose off of the protrusion on the intake plenum. As with other
hoses, if it is stuck, grasp the hose near the end and carefully twist it
about the protrusion so as to break it free. It will then slide off.

6. *Remove the Throttle Body Stay Bolt

One 12mm (18 N*m) bolt secures the rear of the throttle body to the engine.
Remove the bolt. Pretty, shiny throttle body courtesy Mopar Combustion
Chamber Cleaner (Chrysler P/N 04318001).

7. *Remove the Throttle Body

Four 12mm bolts (13 N*m) attach the throttle body to the intake plenum.
Remove the bolts, and the throttle body will now be free from the plenum
and its mounting bolt. Gently pull the throttle body away from the plenum,
being careful not to lose the gasket (next step). Note that the throttle
body will still be attached to some coolant lines and some vacuum lines, so
do not attempt to remove the throttle body from the engine bay.

8. *Remove the Throttle Body Gasket

The throttle body gasket is in between the throttle body and the intake
plenum. Remove it, making note of the direction in which it is installed.
Do not reinstall the used gasket - replace it with a new one!

9. *Remove the Intake Plenum Stay Bolts

There are three 12mm (18 N*m) bolts that secure the rear of the intake
plenum to the engine. Remove the bolts, noting that one bolt also secures a
grounding cable to the chassis.

10. *Remove the VIC Motor Wiring Harnesses

There are two wiring harnesses attached to the Variable Induction Control
(VIC) Motor. There is a silver wire clip (looks like a paper clip) that
surrounds the harness connector. Carefully remove this with a small
screwdriver. Then the harness connector will just slide off.

11. *Remove the Remaining Intake Plenum Bolts

There are five more 12mm bolts (18 N*m) and two 12mm nuts (18 N*m) that
attach the intake plenum to the intake manifold. Remove the bolts and the
nuts, being careful not to let the lock washers or the nuts fall down into
the murky depths of the engine bay, lest you never see them again.

12. *Lift the Intake Plenum Out of the Engine Bay

At this point, the intake plenum is not connected to the engine, so you can
simply lift it out. Do this carefully, and lift straight up until you clear
the posts on the manifold. The picture shows the plenum partially lifted
out, but not removed. You can also see the metal plenum-manifold gasket on
top of the intake manifold.

13. *Remove the Intake Plenum Gasket

The intake plenum gasket lies between the manifold and the plenum and can
be removed once the plenum is removed. This gasket must be replaced
whenever the intake plenum is removed, as should all such gaskets. You now
have access to all 6 spark plugs and wires. A few points of interest and
the cylinder numbers have been labeled for reference.

14. *Remove the Coil-side Connections of the Ignition Wires

Gently pull straight up. Repeat for remaining 5 cylinders. Note that the
numbers are actually printed on the engine approximately where the green
numbers are located. From the front of the car, the connections a 6, 3,
5, 2, 4, 1.

15. *Remove the Plug-side Connections of the Ignition Wires

Again, gently pull straight up; repeat for remaining 5 cylinders.

16. *Remove Spark Plugs

With your spark plug socket on a 6" extension attached to your socket
wrench, gently remove the spark plugs from the spark plug wells. As you
remove the spark plugs, place them somewhere where you can later remember
which plug came from which cylinder as this can help diagnose problems.
When replacing the spark plugs, tighten them to 25 N*m with your torque
wrench so you don't strip the threads!

17. *Reverse the Instructions to Reinstall Everything

Joe wrote:

“Thank you, Captain Obvious.”

What is not obvious is that people have started to make their homes
just as complicated.

Pat wrote:

“So if fewer people are changing their own oil, then there's a reason
other than engine
complexity because engine complexity doesn't factor in to an oil
change.

Yes it does. I remember when ever I needed to change my oil filer I
could just reach under the car and remove it. Now in most cars there
is no way to get to it unless you lift up the front and even then the
filter is placed in such an awkward location that your whole arm gets
drenched in oil along with all the other components under it by the
time you take it off.

“Cars are more reliable and need fewer repairs, so the total number
of
repairs per car is going down. In fact, engine complexity might be
responsible for this as points and carburetors have been eliminated.”

I don’t think cars as a whole are more reliable. I would like to see
some statistics on this to believe it.
I am sure each component in a car is more reliable than it was but
there are many more components than before which significantly raises
the possibility that one or the other is going to break.

“Lifestyle changes including more single women who do not have "a man
to fix the car.

Employment changes including the shift from mechanical/blue collar
jobs to office/white collar jobs so that many people do not have
basic
skills and tools. “

That’s a very good point that I had not considered. Thank you for
pointing that out but I have to disagree with you about tools. Today’s
vehicles require many exotic and expensive tools that the old cars
never did.

“Change in retail so that more places are open evenings and weekends.”

I’m not sure if I understand what you are trying to say there.

“Air conditioning. People are not comfortable going out in the sun/
heat and working.
TV and other entertainment. The generation that worked on their cars
did not spend the weekend watching TV or playing video games.”

Those are other very good reasons that I also had not considered.
Thank you again for that knowledge.

On Fri, 8 May 2009 11:57:46 -0700 (PDT), Molly Brown
wrote:

Joe wrote:

€œThank you, Captain Obvious.€�

What is not obvious is that people have started to make their homes
just as complicated.

Pat wrote:

€œSo if fewer people are changing their own oil, then there's a reason
other than engine
complexity because engine complexity doesn't factor in to an oil
change.

Yes it does. I remember when ever I needed to change my oil filer I
could just reach under the car and remove it. Now in most cars there
is no way to get to it unless you lift up the front and even then the
filter is placed in such an awkward location that your whole arm gets
drenched in oil along with all the other components under it by the
time you take it off.

€œCars are more reliable and need fewer repairs, so the total number
of
repairs per car is going down. In fact, engine complexity might be
responsible for this as points and carburetors have been eliminated.€�

I dont think cars as a whole are more reliable. I would like to see
some statistics on this to believe it.

Absolutel, most definitely yes.
Todays WORST cars are more reliable than the best cars 35 years ago..

When did you last hear of a car going in for a ring and valve job?
Used to be very common before 65000 miles.
Now the vast majority will run 200,000 miles without being opened up
Carb overhauls every couple of years were commonplace. Today's fuel
injection is almost totally maintenance free.
You needed to change plugs, points and condenser every year. Today's
electronic ignition is basically a lifetime system. Spark plugs last
100,00 miles or more.
A muffler and tail pipe was doing good to last 18 months - today many
cars go their whole life - 200,000 miles or more on the original
pipes.

And that's just the tip of the iceberg.
I am sure each component in a car is more reliable than it was but
there are many more components than before which significantly raises
the possibility that one or the other is going to break.

€œLifestyle changes including more single women who do not have "a man
to fix the car.


My 26 year old daughter changes her own snowtires and has done other
work on her old car.
Like many of her generation, she spent big money to buy a brand new
car - and all service is included for the first six years. Most people
don't drive cars long enough after they are off warranty to make owner
mainenance ascompelling as it was in years past.
Employment changes including the shift from mechanical/blue collar
jobs to office/white collar jobs so that many people do not have
basic
skills and tools. €œ

Thats a very good point that I had not considered. Thank you for
pointing that out but I have to disagree with you about tools. Todays
vehicles require many exotic and expensive tools that the old cars
never did.


For basic mainenance they actually take LESS tools.
You don't need a tach/dwell meter or timing light to tune them up. You
don't need fealer guages to adjust points or valves - and plugs are
not regapped any more.
Disk brakes do not require adjustment so the adjuster tools are not
needed either.
You can do the basic maintenenace on today's cars with a basic set of
hand tools and possibly the tool to release the clips on the fuel
line to change the fuel filter.
An OBD2 scanner to check codes is very reasonably priced.

And you can buy decent quality tools for a lot fewer hours of work
today (or at least last year) than 30 years ago.
€œChange in retail so that more places are open evenings and weekends.€�

Im not sure if I understand what you are trying to say there.

€œAir conditioning. People are not comfortable going out in the sun/
heat and working.
TV and other entertainment. The generation that worked on their cars
did not spend the weekend watching TV or playing video games.€�

Those are other very good reasons that I also had not considered.
Thank you again for that knowledge.

Clarence Snyder wrote:

“My 26 year old daughter changes her own snowtires and has done other
work on her old car.
Like many of her generation, she spent big money to buy a brand new
car - and all service is included for the first six years. Most
people
don't drive cars long enough after they are off warranty to make
owner
mainenance ascompelling as it was in years past. “

I don’t know your daughter so I cannot say anything about her but as
far as people in general goes from what I heard on MSNBC most people
trade in their car before the warranty expires and buy a new car but
with the payments of the old car added on to the price of the new car
and they keep repeating this every few years. What eventually happens
is that they go further and further into debt as the years go by. This
doesn’t seem like a smart thing to do.

For basic maintenance they actually take LESS tools.

I wasn’t referring to basic maintenance. A lot of people I know used
to even rebuild their own engines. Now you need a whole encyclopedia
of tools to do the same thing.

“And you can buy decent quality tools for a lot fewer hours of work
today (or at least last year) than 30 years ago.”

If by decent quality you mean made in U.S.A. with a lifetime warranty
then I think you’re wrong. It cost just as many hours of work as
before to purchase them. If you’re referring to the junk made in China
as decent than you have a poor appreciation of quality.

On Fri, 8 May 2009 18:39:11 -0700 (PDT), Molly Brown
wrote:

Clarence Snyder wrote:

€œMy 26 year old daughter changes her own snowtires and has done other
work on her old car.
Like many of her generation, she spent big money to buy a brand new
car - and all service is included for the first six years. Most
people
don't drive cars long enough after they are off warranty to make
owner
mainenance ascompelling as it was in years past. €œ

I dont know your daughter so I cannot say anything about her but as
far as people in general goes from what I heard on MSNBC most people
trade in their car before the warranty expires and buy a new car but
with the payments of the old car added on to the price of the new car
and they keep repeating this every few years. What eventually happens
is that they go further and further into debt as the years go by. This
doesnt seem like a smart thing to do.

Her first car was an old Colt 200 5 speed bought used and abused for
$1800. A hundred thoiusand Km later she got what she paid for it.
Her 1988 Neon was purchased used from her aunt (my sister) for $5k and
was slowly composting away. As assistant operations manager at the
insurance brokerage, with her car parked with the partners' Mercedes,
Porsche, Lexus, BMW, Cadillac and King Ranch 4X4 she thought she
should have something a bit better looking. With a $50K income she
figured she'd buy ONE brand new car, exactly as she wanted it. Black 5
speed Civic coupe - she wanted an SR, but there were no black SR 2008
coupes left in Canada so no sunroof and 4 wheel disk brakes.

She got $2k for the Neon after driving it for 5 years

None of her friends - boyfriends included, can drive the standard - so
she's a bit of a novelty in her circle.

For basic maintenance they actually take LESS tools.

I wasnt referring to basic maintenance. A lot of people I know used
to even rebuild their own engines. Now you need a whole encyclopedia
of tools to do the same thing.

They used to HAVE to rebuild engines.
With the exception of GM, very few engines actually require rebuilding
if properly maintained these days. The odd head gasket etc, but valve
jobs, ring jobs and bearing replacements are pretty rare today on a
vehicle that is still worth spending anything on.

€œAnd you can buy decent quality tools for a lot fewer hours of work
today (or at least last year) than 30 years ago.€�

If by decent quality you mean made in U.S.A. with a lifetime warranty
then I think youre wrong. It cost just as many hours of work as
before to purchase them. If youre referring to the junk made in China
as decent than you have a poor appreciation of quality.

On May 8, 9:39*pm, Molly Brown wrote:
*Clarence Snyder wrote:

“My 26 year old daughter changes her own snowtires and has done other
work on her old car.
Like many of her generation, she spent big money to buy a brand new
car - and all service is included for the first six years. Most
people
don't drive cars long enough after they are off warranty to make
owner
mainenance ascompelling as it was in years past. “

I don’t know your daughter so I cannot say anything about her but as
far as people in general goes from what I heard on MSNBC most people
trade in their car before the warranty expires and buy a new car but
with the payments of the old car added on to the price of the new car
and they keep repeating this every few years. What eventually happens
is that they go further and further into debt as the years go by. This
doesn’t seem like a smart thing to do.

A friend of mine just asked me if I thought he should trade this truck
for a new one. I thought it was still relatively new and he said he's
had it for 2.5 years. He as a 5 year loan. He thinks its a good idea
to trade while prices are down. I told him to hold on to it for
another 5 or 6 years so that it's paid off and he has almost enough
money to buy the next truck for cash. He grumbled about how I am a
moron and that he'll have to start making repairs "soon". I told him
that repairs were cheaper than payments and that 2.5 years old is a
pretty new vehicle. He grumbled and insulted my family. Then he
looked at my van and insulted it. I told him that the difference
between his truck and my van was that my van was paid for and didn't
own me anything. It's been a good, reliable vehicle. I don't think
he can comprehend driving something that's 9 years old, which I bought
2 years ago (for cash). I told him that any time he wanted to compare
our cost per mile, I was up for it. He walked away before I could
mention that I also wanted to compare the cost of living in my house
with the cost of living in his 1 year old house.


For basic maintenance they actually take LESS tools.

I wasn’t referring to basic maintenance. A lot of people I know used
to even rebuild their own engines. Now you need a whole encyclopedia
of tools to do the same thing.

“And you can buy decent quality tools for a lot fewer hours of work
today (or at least last year) than 30 years ago.”

If by decent quality you mean made in U.S.A. with a lifetime warranty
then I think you’re wrong. It cost just as many hours of work as
before to purchase them. If you’re referring to the junk made in China
as decent than you have a poor appreciation of quality.

On May 8, 2:57*pm, Molly Brown wrote:
Joe wrote:

“Thank you, Captain Obvious.”

What is not obvious is that people have started to make their homes
just as complicated.

Pat wrote:

“So if fewer people are changing their own oil, then there's a reason
other than engine
complexity because engine complexity doesn't factor in to an oil
change.

Yes it does. I remember when ever I needed to change my oil filer I
could just reach under the car and remove it. Now in most cars there
is no way to get to it unless you lift up the front and even then the
filter is placed in such an awkward location that your whole arm gets
drenched in oil along with all the other components under it by the
time you take it off.

“Cars are more reliable and need fewer repairs, so the total number
of
repairs per car is going down. In fact, engine complexity might be
responsible for this as points and carburetors have been eliminated.”

I don’t think cars as a whole are more reliable. I would like to see
some statistics on this to believe it.
I am sure each component in a car is more reliable than *it was but
there are many more components than before which significantly raises
the possibility that one or the other is going to break.

Thing about two things.

First off, in the "good old days" you fixed your car when it broke. I
mean, something physically broke and pretty much incapacitated the
vehicle. Now, most (okay, at least "many") repairs are "check engine
soon". Those things broke, before, but you just didn't know it. But
blown engines, head gaskets, etc. are not common any more.

Second, thing of the roads around whereever it is that you live.
There are few broken down cars any more. That used to be a common
sight. Yeah, AAA might have something to do with that, but still
there aren't as many breakdowns.

Blown tires used to be much more common, too, but they aren't very
common now. And, again, you don't see many people next to the road
with a flat, either. Tires are SO much better.

I also thing that coatings, mud flaps and plastics have cut down on
rust and holes.


“Lifestyle changes including more single women who do not have "a man
to fix the car.

Employment changes including the shift from mechanical/blue collar
jobs to office/white collar jobs so that many people do not have
basic
skills and tools. “

That’s a very good point that I had not considered. Thank you for
pointing that out but I have to disagree with you about tools. Today’s
vehicles require many exotic and expensive tools that the old cars
never did.

“Change in retail so that more places are open evenings and weekends.”

I’m not sure if I understand what you are trying to say there.

“Air conditioning. People are not comfortable going out in the sun/
heat and working.
TV and other entertainment. The generation that worked on their cars
did not spend the weekend watching TV or playing video games.”

Those are other very good reasons that I also had not considered.
Thank you again for that knowledge.

Pat wrote:
On May 8, 2:57 pm, Molly Brown wrote:
Joe wrote:

“Thank you, Captain Obvious.”

(snip)

Blown tires used to be much more common, too, but they aren't very
common now. And, again, you don't see many people next to the road
with a flat, either. Tires are SO much better.

Oh, yeah. I haven't had a blowout in 15 years, at least. The occasional
slow leak, due to aluminum wheels liking to lose their bead seal, but
that is about it.

I also thing that coatings, mud flaps and plastics have cut down on
rust and holes.

Not so much. What all that cladding garbage mainly does is HIDE the rust
holes. Up here in salt country, it also traps salt right against the
metal and holds it there. Seen many cars and pickups around here, all
shiny up top, but one of the lower rocker trim panels is missing, and
the metal behind is just GONE, like it was cut out with a saber saw.
Since I only buy used cars, I don't get much choice on the wheels or the
body gingerbread, but if I ever hit the lotto and buy a new car, I'll
pay extra to have them make me one without any of that crap on it.

“Lifestyle changes including more single women who do not have "a man
to fix the car.

After my parents split up and my father moved to a distant state, I was
one of the few adult males to spend time with my little sisters, on
visits back home. I made it a point to teach them car basics, like how
to change a flat, check oil and fluids, jump a battery, and know when a
garage was feeding them BS. They seemed to forget it all as they morphed
into the boy-crazy stage, but now that they are adults, it seems to have
floated back to the top. No helpless females allowed in our family.

--
aem sends...

clipped

After my parents split up and my father moved to a distant state, I was
one of the few adult males to spend time with my little sisters, on
visits back home. I made it a point to teach them car basics, like how
to change a flat, check oil and fluids, jump a battery, and know when a
garage was feeding them BS. They seemed to forget it all as they morphed
into the boy-crazy stage, but now that they are adults, it seems to have
floated back to the top. No helpless females allowed in our family.

--
aem sends...

My mom knew how to do all that stuff, but didn't teach me. Of course,
for a long time all I had to do if I had car trouble was pull over and
look helpless. I really didn't get the nack of looking helpless, but
most males assumed that I was. Or something.

I was out doing some nature photography when I first moved to Florida.
Nice, quiet country road, early Sunday morning. I pulled off the road
and had my tripod set up - the next four cars stopped. Three asked
whether I needed help. The fourth told me about another spot down the
road that had lots of wildflowers and butterflies. In some of my
wanderings (alone) I found a couple of places that Bruce Willis and Sly
Stallone wouldn't have gone alone .. got stuck in sand on a dirt road in
one of those spots, almost dusk. Two drunks in a pickup came along to
push me out. Good grief! I never saw truly scary people until I moved
to Florida....

Pat wrote:
On May 8, 12:40 pm, Molly Brown wrote:
Up until the sixties and seventies on the weekends I used to see
people in their driveways and garages repairing or doing maintenance
on their cars. I hardly ever see that anymore. It used to be that if
you wanted to have your car repaired you could just go to any repair
shop. Today you have to consider what the repair involves. If it’s
something complicated you need to take it to the dealer and pay the
big bucks or same time next year you’re probably going to have the
same problem. To know why this is just lift up the hood of a car from
that era and then do the same thing to an automobile today.

While your observation may be true, your analysis and conclusion are
complete ridiculous.

If complexity of cars/engines is the reason for fewer shade-tree
mechanics, then for non-complex jobs, the people doing it would have
remained constant. For example, changing the oil is very simple and
not much more complex than it was 30 years ago. So if fewer people
are changing their own oil, then there's a reason other than engine
complexity because engine complexity doesn't factor in to an oil
change.

I would guess that a number of other reasons have a larger influence
on car repairs than engine complexity. Among the likely reasons would
be:

Cars are more reliable and need fewer repairs, so the total number of
repairs per car is going down. In fact, engine complexity might be
responsible for this as points and carburetors have been eliminated.

Lifestyle changes including more single women who do not have "a man
to fix the car".

Employment changes including the shift from mechanical/blue collar
jobs to office/white collar jobs so that many people do not have basic
skills and tools.

Change in retail so that more places are open evenings and weekends.

Air conditioning. People are not comfortable going out in the sun/
heat and working.

TV and other entertainment. The generation that worked on their cars
did not spend the weekend watching TV or playing video games.

I am sure there are others and it would be fun to see what other
people think. But as for the OP, I am pretty sure she is dead wrong.
One must be careful when trying to figure out cause and effect.

In my father's day they would change the oil in the back driveway, throw the
empty cans and old filter in the garbage and pour the old oil down the
sewer. Yup let's go back to those days.

With today environmental awareness it makes far more sense to run my vehicle
into an oil change shop, have the work done inside of 1/2 an hour and be
out. They have the facilities to handle the used oil and filter.

The rest of the car maintenance, i.e. tune-ups etc have now gone out of the
hands of the everyday owner due to the implementation of all the high end
technology. Besides I would rather spend the time with my kids.

--
PV

"Little men with little minds and little imaginations go through life
in little ruts, smugly resisting all changes which would jar their
little worlds. Zig Zigler

PV wrote:

In my father's day they would change the oil in the back driveway, throw the
empty cans and old filter in the garbage and pour the old oil down the
sewer. Yup let's go back to those days.




i still put the cans and filter in the garbage. Where the hell else do
you think they go? I do recycle the used oil. I pour it on my gravel
driveways to control dust. Just like the county does.

s

On Fri, 08 May 2009 15:14:26 -0500, Steve Barker
wrote:

PV wrote:

In my father's day they would change the oil in the back driveway, throw the
empty cans and old filter in the garbage and pour the old oil down the
sewer. Yup let's go back to those days.




i still put the cans and filter in the garbage. Where the hell else do
you think they go? I do recycle the used oil. I pour it on my gravel
driveways to control dust. Just like the county does.

s
What county? Engine oil on the road has been forbidden FEDERALLY in
both Canada and the USA for over 20 years.

Steve Barker wrote:
PV wrote:

In my father's day they would change the oil in the back driveway,
throw the empty cans and old filter in the garbage and pour the old
oil down the sewer. Yup let's go back to those days.




i still put the cans and filter in the garbage. Where the hell else
do you think they go? I do recycle the used oil. I pour it on my
gravel driveways to control dust. Just like the county does.

s

Well in my city, engine oil and used filters do not go in the garbage, they
must be taken to the local eco-centre for proper disposal. Pouring oil on
the road or driveway is also forbidden.

http://www.ecy.wa.gov/news/2006news/2006-089.html

A bit of info on the reasons why used motor oil should not be dumped on your
driveway.


--
PV

"Little men with little minds and little imaginations go through life
in little ruts, smugly resisting all changes which would jar their
little worlds. Zig Zigler

on 5/8/2009 4:14 PM (ET) Steve Barker wrote the following:
PV wrote:

In my father's day they would change the oil in the back driveway,
throw the empty cans and old filter in the garbage and pour the old
oil down the sewer. Yup let's go back to those days.




i still put the cans and filter in the garbage. Where the hell else
do you think they go? I do recycle the used oil. I pour it on my
gravel driveways to control dust. Just like the county does.

s


I filter the old oil then pour it in my fuel oil tank.

--

Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
To email, remove the double zeroes after @

On Sat, 09 May 2009 07:00:42 -0400, willshak
wrote Re Automobiles:


I filter the old oil then pour it in my fuel oil tank.

How do you do the filtering? What kind of filter and how do you pump
the oil through the filter?

On May 8, 3:23*pm, "PV" wrote:
Pat wrote:
On May 8, 12:40 pm, Molly Brown wrote:
Up until the sixties and seventies on the weekends I used to see
people in their driveways and garages repairing or doing maintenance
on their cars. I hardly ever see that anymore. It used to be that if
you wanted to have your car repaired you could just go to any repair
shop. Today you have to consider what the repair involves. If it’s
something complicated you need to take it to the dealer and pay the
big bucks or same time next year you’re probably going to have the
same problem. To know why this is just lift up the hood of a car from
that era and then do the same thing to an automobile today.

While your observation may be true, your analysis and conclusion are
complete ridiculous.

If complexity of cars/engines is the reason for fewer shade-tree
mechanics, then for non-complex jobs, the people doing it would have
remained constant. *For example, changing the oil is very simple and
not much more complex than it was 30 years ago. *So if fewer people
are changing their own oil, then there's a reason other than engine
complexity because engine complexity doesn't factor in to an oil
change.

I would guess that a number of other reasons have a larger influence
on car repairs than engine complexity. *Among the likely reasons would
be:

Cars are more reliable and need fewer repairs, so the total number of
repairs per car is going down. *In fact, engine complexity might be
responsible for this as points and carburetors have been eliminated.

Lifestyle changes including more single women who do not have "a man
to fix the car".

Employment changes including the shift from mechanical/blue collar
jobs to office/white collar jobs so that many people do not have basic
skills and tools.

Change in retail so that more places are open evenings and weekends.

Air conditioning. *People are not comfortable going out in the sun/
heat and working.

TV and other entertainment. The generation that worked on their cars
did not spend the weekend watching TV or playing video games.

I am sure there are others and it would be fun to see what other
people think. *But as for the OP, I am pretty sure she is dead wrong.
One must be careful when trying to figure out cause and effect.

In my father's day they would change the oil in the back driveway, throw the
empty cans and old filter in the garbage and pour the old oil down the
sewer. *Yup let's go back to those days.

With today environmental awareness it makes far more sense to run my vehicle
into an oil change shop, have the work done inside of 1/2 an hour and be
out. *They have the facilities to handle the used oil and filter.

The rest of the car maintenance, i.e. tune-ups etc have now gone out of the
hands of the everyday owner due to the implementation of all the high end
technology. *Besides I would rather spend the time with my kids.

How about spending some time with the kids teaching them how to change
the oil?

PV wrote:
Pat wrote:
On May 8, 12:40 pm, Molly Brown wrote:
Up until the sixties and seventies on the weekends I used to see
people in their driveways and garages repairing or doing maintenance
on their cars. I hardly ever see that anymore. It used to be that if
you wanted to have your car repaired you could just go to any repair
shop. Today you have to consider what the repair involves. If it’s
something complicated you need to take it to the dealer and pay the
big bucks or same time next year you’re probably going to have the
same problem. To know why this is just lift up the hood of a car from
that era and then do the same thing to an automobile today.
While your observation may be true, your analysis and conclusion are
complete ridiculous.

If complexity of cars/engines is the reason for fewer shade-tree
mechanics, then for non-complex jobs, the people doing it would have
remained constant. For example, changing the oil is very simple and
not much more complex than it was 30 years ago. So if fewer people
are changing their own oil, then there's a reason other than engine
complexity because engine complexity doesn't factor in to an oil
change.

I would guess that a number of other reasons have a larger influence
on car repairs than engine complexity. Among the likely reasons would
be:

Cars are more reliable and need fewer repairs, so the total number of
repairs per car is going down. In fact, engine complexity might be
responsible for this as points and carburetors have been eliminated.

Lifestyle changes including more single women who do not have "a man
to fix the car".

Employment changes including the shift from mechanical/blue collar
jobs to office/white collar jobs so that many people do not have basic
skills and tools.

Change in retail so that more places are open evenings and weekends.

Air conditioning. People are not comfortable going out in the sun/
heat and working.

TV and other entertainment. The generation that worked on their cars
did not spend the weekend watching TV or playing video games.

I am sure there are others and it would be fun to see what other
people think. But as for the OP, I am pretty sure she is dead wrong.
One must be careful when trying to figure out cause and effect.

In my father's day they would change the oil in the back driveway, throw the
empty cans and old filter in the garbage and pour the old oil down the
sewer. Yup let's go back to those days.

With today environmental awareness it makes far more sense to run my vehicle
into an oil change shop, have the work done inside of 1/2 an hour and be
out. They have the facilities to handle the used oil and filter.

The rest of the car maintenance, i.e. tune-ups etc have now gone out of the
hands of the everyday owner due to the implementation of all the high end
technology. Besides I would rather spend the time with my kids.


I tried to be a good citizen once. I took my used
oil to the local Auto Zone where I'd see a card
indicating that the store would take your used
motor oil. The clerk handed me a sheaf of EPA
paperwork that I would have to spend at least an
hour filling out with all sorts of personal info.
Remembering what the government had done to the
folks who had brought their old car batteries to
a lead recycling operation that had misbehaved, I
changed my mind and found a patch of weeds that
needed killing. Please don't tell the EPA, I may
have killed the rare tongue wiggling weed plant
that is a protected species.

TDD

On May 8, 3:23*pm, "PV" wrote:
Pat wrote:
On May 8, 12:40 pm, Molly Brown wrote:
Up until the sixties and seventies on the weekends I used to see
people in their driveways and garages repairing or doing maintenance
on their cars. I hardly ever see that anymore. It used to be that if
you wanted to have your car repaired you could just go to any repair
shop. Today you have to consider what the repair involves. If it’s
something complicated you need to take it to the dealer and pay the
big bucks or same time next year you’re probably going to have the
same problem. To know why this is just lift up the hood of a car from
that era and then do the same thing to an automobile today.

While your observation may be true, your analysis and conclusion are
complete ridiculous.

If complexity of cars/engines is the reason for fewer shade-tree
mechanics, then for non-complex jobs, the people doing it would have
remained constant. *For example, changing the oil is very simple and
not much more complex than it was 30 years ago. *So if fewer people
are changing their own oil, then there's a reason other than engine
complexity because engine complexity doesn't factor in to an oil
change.

I would guess that a number of other reasons have a larger influence
on car repairs than engine complexity. *Among the likely reasons would
be:

Cars are more reliable and need fewer repairs, so the total number of
repairs per car is going down. *In fact, engine complexity might be
responsible for this as points and carburetors have been eliminated.

Lifestyle changes including more single women who do not have "a man
to fix the car".

Employment changes including the shift from mechanical/blue collar
jobs to office/white collar jobs so that many people do not have basic
skills and tools.

Change in retail so that more places are open evenings and weekends.

Air conditioning. *People are not comfortable going out in the sun/
heat and working.

TV and other entertainment. The generation that worked on their cars
did not spend the weekend watching TV or playing video games.

I am sure there are others and it would be fun to see what other
people think. *But as for the OP, I am pretty sure she is dead wrong.
One must be careful when trying to figure out cause and effect.

In my father's day they would change the oil in the back driveway, throw the
empty cans and old filter in the garbage and pour the old oil down the
sewer. *Yup let's go back to those days.

With today environmental awareness it makes far more sense to run my vehicle
into an oil change shop, have the work done inside of 1/2 an hour and be
out. *They have the facilities to handle the used oil and filter.

The rest of the car maintenance, i.e. tune-ups etc have now gone out of the
hands of the everyday owner due to the implementation of all the high end
technology. *Besides I would rather spend the time with my kids.

You make valid points. There are environmental changes re oil. I
take mine to a friend who has a furnace that'll burn it. Around here,
any place that sells oil must also take it for recycling.

The lifestyle changes is a big factor. In fact, it's probably the
biggest factor as to why people don't work on cars. They have better
things to do.

Weather can also play a role in it. I don't change my own oil in the
winter because I don't like laying in the snow when it's 10F out. But
I change it in the summer because it's easier.


--
PV

"Little men with little minds and little imaginations go through life
in little ruts, smugly resisting all changes which would jar their
little worlds. Zig Zigler

Pat wrote:

On May 8, 12:40 pm, Molly Brown wrote:

Up until the sixties and seventies on the weekends I used to see
people in their driveways and garages repairing or doing maintenance
on their cars. I hardly ever see that anymore. It used to be that if
you wanted to have your car repaired you could just go to any repair
shop. Today you have to consider what the repair involves. If it’s
something complicated you need to take it to the dealer and pay the
big bucks or same time next year you’re probably going to have the
same problem. To know why this is just lift up the hood of a car from
that era and then do the same thing to an automobile today.


While your observation may be true, your analysis and conclusion are
complete ridiculous.

If complexity of cars/engines is the reason for fewer shade-tree
mechanics, then for non-complex jobs, the people doing it would have
remained constant. For example, changing the oil is very simple and
not much more complex than it was 30 years ago. So if fewer people
are changing their own oil, then there's a reason other than engine
complexity because engine complexity doesn't factor in to an oil
change.

But 30 (maybe closer to 50) years ago I could crawl on my back under
most car without having to run the front wheels up on a pair of ramps.

I would guess that a number of other reasons have a larger influence
on car repairs than engine complexity. Among the likely reasons would
be:

Cars are more reliable and need fewer repairs, so the total number of
repairs per car is going down. In fact, engine complexity might be
responsible for this as points and carburetors have been eliminated.

Lifestyle changes including more single women who do not have "a man
to fix the car".

Employment changes including the shift from mechanical/blue collar
jobs to office/white collar jobs so that many people do not have basic
skills and tools.

Change in retail so that more places are open evenings and weekends.

Air conditioning. People are not comfortable going out in the sun/
heat and working.

TV and other entertainment. The generation that worked on their cars
did not spend the weekend watching TV or playing video games.

I am sure there are others and it would be fun to see what other
people think. But as for the OP, I am pretty sure she is dead wrong.
One must be careful when trying to figure out cause and effect.


Very well put, Pat.

I started "getting out and under" my cars circa 1951 when my best buddy
and I were joint owners of a Model A ford convertible. I got to fix it
and he got to take the girls out in it. Then, a couple of years later I
got a '53 Willys Aero Ace, stuffed a ham radio mobile rig in it (W6KAH)
drove the girls up to the top of Twin Peaks in San Francisco weekend
nights to "see how far we could get." G

I've now pretty much joined the ranks of those who have to fix their
cars with their checkbooks instead of their tool collections. I take a
stroll down memory lane when I see some of my olde special purpose tools
like distributor point gap feeler gages, my neon timing light and that
flexible screwdriver thingy I used to crank the distributor body around
to set the spark timing, and realize that save for a few antique car
buffs, nobody is ever going to use them again, but I just can't chuck
'em out.

But there's no doubt in my mind that today's cars, from the tires on up
are considerably more reliable than the ones I used to be able to fix
"anything" on, and the few times a year I need to pay for repairs isn't
such a big deal.

I've settled on a small local independent repair shop where the owner
recognizes my understanding of automotive stuff and from the way he
treats me I don't think he's too much into taking advantage of me. And
as the owner of a small business myself, I appreciate all those overhead
costs that have to be covered by sales, costs which I didn't have to
consider when I DIYd most of my auto repairing.

I'm sure I could easily learn to use today's high tech electronic
instruments to pinpoint troubles, but investing in them to keep two
family cars up and running just doesen't make much sense to me.

However, there are times when I just have to suck it in and keep my
mouth shut, like last month when SWMBO's V6 Buick started running rough.
My repair guy's solution was a new set of plugs and replacing all THREE
dual spark coils. When I couldn't help sounding a little skeptical about
the car needing more than one coil the shop owner's response was. "Well,
it didn't, but when one fails the others usually go bad too in a matter
of months."

I thanked him, paid the bill and left, trying to remind myself to follow
the axiom, "When rape is inevitable, just lie back and try and enjoy it."

Jeff
--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
The speed of light is 1.8*10^12 furlongs per fortnight.

In article mmunications, jeff_wisnia wrote:

But 30 (maybe closer to 50) years ago I could crawl on my back under
most car without having to run the front wheels up on a pair of ramps.

Yeah, well, I was thinner 30 years ago, too.

On Fri, 08 May 2009 16:43:27 -0400, against all advice, something
compelled jeff_wisnia , to say:

However, there are times when I just have to suck it in and keep my
mouth shut, like last month when SWMBO's V6 Buick started running rough.
My repair guy's solution was a new set of plugs and replacing all THREE
dual spark coils. When I couldn't help sounding a little skeptical about
the car needing more than one coil the shop owner's response was. "Well,
it didn't, but when one fails the others usually go bad too in a matter
of months."



And he has a point. They are all the same age, and they have all
been thorough the same service cycles.

When one headlight goes out, replace them both. Unless they are
from the planet Xenon. The Xenonese are proud of their
headlights, and charge accordingly.




--

Real men don't text.

On Fri, 8 May 2009 10:18:20 -0700 (PDT), Pat
wrote:

On May 8, 12:40Â*pm, Molly Brown wrote:
Up until the sixties and seventies on the weekends I used to see
people in their driveways and garages repairing or doing maintenance
on their cars. I hardly ever see that anymore. It used to be that if
you wanted to have your car repaired you could just go to any repair
shop. Today you have to consider what the repair involves. If its
something complicated you need to take it to the dealer and pay the
big bucks or same time next year youre probably going to have the
same problem. To know why this is just lift up the hood of a car from
that era and then do the same thing to an automobile today.

While your observation may be true, your analysis and conclusion are
complete ridiculous.

If complexity of cars/engines is the reason for fewer shade-tree
mechanics, then for non-complex jobs, the people doing it would have
remained constant. For example, changing the oil is very simple and
not much more complex than it was 30 years ago. So if fewer people
are changing their own oil, then there's a reason other than engine
complexity because engine complexity doesn't factor in to an oil
change.


Not completely true.
MANY cars today are almost impossible to change the filter on without
a hoist (and still almost impossible then). To change the filter
without spashing oil everywhere is a real challenge.

Also, environmental laws make it harder to dispose of the oil and
filter.

I would guess that a number of other reasons have a larger influence
on car repairs than engine complexity. Among the likely reasons would
be:

Cars are more reliable and need fewer repairs, so the total number of
repairs per car is going down. In fact, engine complexity might be
responsible for this as points and carburetors have been eliminated.

Lifestyle changes including more single women who do not have "a man
to fix the car".

Employment changes including the shift from mechanical/blue collar
jobs to office/white collar jobs so that many people do not have basic
skills and tools.

Change in retail so that more places are open evenings and weekends.

Air conditioning. People are not comfortable going out in the sun/
heat and working.

TV and other entertainment. The generation that worked on their cars
did not spend the weekend watching TV or playing video games.

I am sure there are others and it would be fun to see what other
people think. But as for the OP, I am pretty sure she is dead wrong.
One must be careful when trying to figure out cause and effect.


All of the above.
Mainly:
Most people today
a) don't know how to service their car (or anything else)
b) don't have the tools/facilties to service their cars
c) don't want to get their hands dirty

On Fri, 08 May 2009 19:28:27 -0400, in alt.home.repair,
wrote:

All of the above.
Mainly:
Most people today
a) don't know how to service their car (or anything else)
b) don't have the tools/facilties to service their cars
c) don't want to get their hands dirty

The whole "everybody was in their driveways working on their cars" is a
fallacy too; *most* people weren't/aren't competent with a wrench and *most*
people have always taken their cars to Cooter's Garage or Goober's Gas or
whatever. Nothing new there.

For those of us who have wrenched on our cars and still do, here's why you
never see us do it: modern cars need so little attention, and what they need
can be done so easily, that we have it all wrapped up and working on a cold
beer by the time someone drives by and wonder why we're not out there
working on our cars!

--
Due to Usenet spam, emailed replies must pass an intelligence test: if
you want me to read your reply, be sure to include this line of text in
your email, but remove this line before sending, otherwise my filters
will delete your email with all due prejudice. Thanks!

On May 8, 7:28*pm, wrote:
On Fri, 8 May 2009 10:18:20 -0700 (PDT), Pat





wrote:
On May 8, 12:40*pm, Molly Brown wrote:
Up until the sixties and seventies on the weekends I used to see
people in their driveways and garages repairing or doing maintenance
on their cars. I hardly ever see that anymore. It used to be that if
you wanted to have your car repaired you could just go to any repair
shop. Today you have to consider what the repair involves. If it’s
something complicated you need to take it to the dealer and pay the
big bucks or same time next year you’re probably going to have the
same problem. To know why this is just lift up the hood of a car from
that era and then do the same thing to an automobile today.

While your observation may be true, your analysis and conclusion are
complete ridiculous.

If complexity of cars/engines is the reason for fewer shade-tree
mechanics, then for non-complex jobs, the people doing it would have
remained constant. *For example, changing the oil is very simple and
not much more complex than it was 30 years ago. *So if fewer people
are changing their own oil, then there's a reason other than engine
complexity because engine complexity doesn't factor in to an oil
change.

Not completely true.
MANY cars today are almost impossible to change the filter on without
a hoist (and still almost impossible then). To change the filter
without spashing oil everywhere is a real challenge.

While I don't doubt that some cars like this exist, I think they are
relatively rare. I've changed the oil myself in the driveway on
quite a few makes/models of cars and have yet to find one yet that you
need a hoist.



Also, environmental laws make it harder to dispose of the oil and
filter.



I don't know what you were doing with oil in the past, but unless you
were pouring it out on the ground, or down the storm sewer, not all
that much has changed. Here in NJ I just take it to the local auto
parts/service place in a 5 gallon pail and they take it for free.
Filter gets drained, then placed in with the regular trash.







I would guess that a number of other reasons have a larger influence
on car repairs than engine complexity. *Among the likely reasons would
be:

Cars are more reliable and need fewer repairs, so the total number of
repairs per car is going down. *In fact, engine complexity might be
responsible for this as points and carburetors have been eliminated.

Lifestyle changes including more single women who do not have "a man
to fix the car".

Employment changes including the shift from mechanical/blue collar
jobs to office/white collar jobs so that many people do not have basic
skills and tools.

Change in retail so that more places are open evenings and weekends.

Air conditioning. *People are not comfortable going out in the sun/
heat and working.

TV and other entertainment. The generation that worked on their cars
did not spend the weekend watching TV or playing video games.

I am sure there are others and it would be fun to see what other
people think. *But as for the OP, I am pretty sure she is dead wrong.
One must be careful when trying to figure out cause and effect.

All of the above.
Mainly:
Most people today
*a) don't know how to service their car (or anything else)
*b) don't have the tools/facilties to service their cars
*c) don't want to get their hands dirty- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Sat, 9 May 2009 13:02:53 -0700 (PDT), wrote:


Also, environmental laws make it harder to dispose of the oil and
filter.



I don't know what you were doing with oil in the past, but unless you
were pouring it out on the ground, or down the storm sewer, not all
that much has changed. Here in NJ I just take it to the local auto
parts/service place in a 5 gallon pail and they take it for free.
Filter gets drained, then placed in with the regular trash.

Up here in Ontario the filters are considered toxic waste unless they
have been squeezed dry.
My brother's shop has a converted logsplitter than knocks them down to
1/2" "cookies"

Molly Brown wrote:
Up until the sixties and seventies on the weekends I used to see
people in their driveways and garages repairing or doing maintenance
on their cars. I hardly ever see that anymore. It used to be that if
you wanted to have your car repaired you could just go to any repair
shop. Today you have to consider what the repair involves. If it’s
something complicated you need to take it to the dealer and pay the
big bucks or same time next year you’re probably going to have the
same problem. To know why this is just lift up the hood of a car from
that era and then do the same thing to an automobile today.

and your point is?

On Fri, 8 May 2009 09:40:33 -0700 (PDT), Molly Brown
wrote:

Up until the sixties and seventies on the weekends I used to see
people in their driveways and garages repairing or doing maintenance
on their cars. I hardly ever see that anymore. It used to be that if
you wanted to have your car repaired you could just go to any repair
shop. Today you have to consider what the repair involves. If it’s
something complicated you need to take it to the dealer and pay the
big bucks or same time next year you’re probably going to have the
same problem. To know why this is just lift up the hood of a car from
that era and then do the same thing to an automobile today.


You won't see me do it because I do mine in the garage usually
with the door shut.