Off of 1 panel I have:
3 220V circuits
4 110V circuits

When one of the 220V breakers is on, all the 110 circuits display some
kind of "error" -- either hot/neu reversed or hot/grn reversed, or in
one case all 3 lights come on! (which is not suppose to be an
option!). It's the same error on each circuit, just different errors
depending on which circuit it is.

When I flip off that one 220V break, all the circuits read fine.

What could it be? The 220V circuit has 3 outlets on it. And they all
work.

The 220V circuits use 3 wires - black, white, ground. Black and white
go to the breaker.

coloradotrout wrote:
Off of 1 panel I have:
3 220V circuits
4 110V circuits

When one of the 220V breakers is on, all the 110 circuits display some
kind of "error" -- either hot/neu reversed or hot/grn reversed, or in
one case all 3 lights come on! (which is not suppose to be an
option!). It's the same error on each circuit, just different errors
depending on which circuit it is.

When I flip off that one 220V break, all the circuits read fine.

What could it be? The 220V circuit has 3 outlets on it. And they all
work.

The 220V circuits use 3 wires - black, white, ground. Black and white
go to the breaker.

(The white to the 220V breaker should have been remarked a different
color like black or red. Also at the receptacles. Not encouraging.)

All 3 lights on can be caused by a floating ground - for instance if the
ground was at 60V. Or if the ground was at 110V on the other hot wire.

H-N reverse could be caused with a floating ground if the ground was hot.

If the hot was not powered you could get H-G reversed if the ground was
hot.

My guess is a floating ground. The ground voltage could be determined by
leakage in the 220V circuits (or loads connected). These testers do not
necessarily indicate reality.

Do loads on all circuits work (for instance lights are normally bright
on the 110V circuits (or are H-N and H-H voltages normal).

If you have a known good receptacle elsewhere (particularly the ground)
you could run an extension cord from it to your panel and measure
voltages with respect to the good ground on the extension cord
(including panel ground).

To test the ground, connect a light bulb from hot to ground (perhaps
with only one 110V breaker on). If the bulb does not light the ground is
open. The bulb should light from H-N.

--
bud--

coloradotrout wrote:
Off of 1 panel I have:
3 220V circuits
4 110V circuits

When one of the 220V breakers is on, all the 110 circuits display some
kind of "error" -- either hot/neu reversed or hot/grn reversed, or in
one case all 3 lights come on! (which is not suppose to be an
option!).

The plug testers do not indicate correctly if there a
- Other loads connected and turned on.
- multiple wiring errors.

Make sure all loads (lights, appliances, doorbell transformer etc) are
either turned off or disconnected if hard wired.

It's the same error on each circuit, just different errors
depending on which circuit it is.

Is it the same error or different error??

When I flip off that one 220V break, all the circuits read fine.

What could it be? The 220V circuit has 3 outlets on it. And they all
work.

Typically when there is an open neutral in one of the 120V circuits all
the 220V circuits work fine.

What are you using to determine if they work? An appliance or light
bulb? Or just a meter? A meter will not give correct results either if
there is a problem such as an open neutral and you have other loads
turned on.
By turned on I mean switched on. (The item will not necessarily be
working depending on the wiring error present).

Kevin




The 220V circuits use 3 wires - black, white, ground. Black and white
go to the breaker.

On Dec 24, 8:33*am, Kevin Ricks wrote:
coloradotrout wrote:
Off of 1 panel I have:
3 220V circuits
4 110V circuits

When one of the 220V breakers is on, all the 110 circuits display some
kind of "error" -- either hot/neu reversed or hot/grn reversed, or in
one case all 3 lights come on! *(which is not suppose to be an
option!).

The plug testers do not indicate correctly if there a
* - Other loads connected and turned on.
* - multiple wiring errors.

Make sure all loads (lights, appliances, doorbell transformer etc) are
either turned off or disconnected if hard wired.

It's the same error on each circuit, just different errors
depending on which circuit it is.

Is it the same error or different error??

When I flip off that one 220V break, *all the circuits read fine.

What could it be? *The 220V circuit has 3 outlets on it. *And they all
work.

Typically when there is an open neutral in one of the 120V circuits all
the 220V circuits work fine.

What are you using to determine if they work? An appliance or light
bulb? Or just a meter? A meter will not give correct results either if
there is a problem such as an open neutral and you have other loads
turned on.
By turned on I mean switched on. (The item will not necessarily be
working depending on the wiring error present).

Kevin





The 220V circuits use 3 wires - black, white, ground. *Black and white
go to the breaker.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The issues only exist when that 1 220V breaker is on. If I flip it
off, all receptacles test out fine.

On Dec 24, 11:09*am, coloradotrout wrote:
On Dec 24, 8:33*am, Kevin Ricks wrote:





coloradotrout wrote:
Off of 1 panel I have:
3 220V circuits
4 110V circuits

When one of the 220V breakers is on, all the 110 circuits display some
kind of "error" -- either hot/neu reversed or hot/grn reversed, or in
one case all 3 lights come on! *(which is not suppose to be an
option!).

The plug testers do not indicate correctly if there a
* - Other loads connected and turned on.
* - multiple wiring errors.

Make sure all loads (lights, appliances, doorbell transformer etc) are
either turned off or disconnected if hard wired.

It's the same error on each circuit, just different errors
depending on which circuit it is.

Is it the same error or different error??

When I flip off that one 220V break, *all the circuits read fine.

What could it be? *The 220V circuit has 3 outlets on it. *And they all
work.

Typically when there is an open neutral in one of the 120V circuits all
the 220V circuits work fine.

What are you using to determine if they work? An appliance or light
bulb? Or just a meter? A meter will not give correct results either if
there is a problem such as an open neutral and you have other loads
turned on.
By turned on I mean switched on. (The item will not necessarily be
working depending on the wiring error present).

Kevin

The 220V circuits use 3 wires - black, white, ground. *Black and white
go to the breaker.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The issues only exist when that 1 220V breaker is on. *If I flip it
off, all receptacles test out fine.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Cicuits
=========================
a)110v - office lights and outlets
b)110v - office AC - single outlet
c)220v - office heat - hardwired

d)110v - shop lights
e)110v - shop outlets
f)220v - shop dust collector outlet - single 20A outlet
g)220v - shop outlets - 3 20A outlets -- THIS IS THE ONE that when its
breaker is on, seems to be what causes all the other circuits to be H-
N, H-G, or in the case of the office AC, all the lights come on, which
is a condition that the legend on the tester does not even address.

Lights, saws, drills, etc all seem to work fine.

I added d, f, and g. (d) used to be apart of (e), but I ran a
seperate circuit.

"coloradotrout" wrote in message
...
On Dec 24, 11:09 am, coloradotrout wrote:
On Dec 24, 8:33 am, Kevin Ricks wrote:





coloradotrout wrote:
Off of 1 panel I have:
3 220V circuits
4 110V circuits

When one of the 220V breakers is on, all the 110 circuits display some
kind of "error" -- either hot/neu reversed or hot/grn reversed, or in
one case all 3 lights come on! (which is not suppose to be an
option!).

The plug testers do not indicate correctly if there a
- Other loads connected and turned on.
- multiple wiring errors.

Make sure all loads (lights, appliances, doorbell transformer etc) are
either turned off or disconnected if hard wired.

It's the same error on each circuit, just different errors
depending on which circuit it is.

Is it the same error or different error??

When I flip off that one 220V break, all the circuits read fine.

What could it be? The 220V circuit has 3 outlets on it. And they all
work.

Typically when there is an open neutral in one of the 120V circuits all
the 220V circuits work fine.

What are you using to determine if they work? An appliance or light
bulb? Or just a meter? A meter will not give correct results either if
there is a problem such as an open neutral and you have other loads
turned on.
By turned on I mean switched on. (The item will not necessarily be
working depending on the wiring error present).

Kevin

The 220V circuits use 3 wires - black, white, ground. Black and white
go to the breaker.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The issues only exist when that 1 220V breaker is on. If I flip it
off, all receptacles test out fine.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Cicuits
=========================
a)110v - office lights and outlets
b)110v - office AC - single outlet
c)220v - office heat - hardwired

d)110v - shop lights
e)110v - shop outlets
f)220v - shop dust collector outlet - single 20A outlet
g)220v - shop outlets - 3 20A outlets -- THIS IS THE ONE that when its
breaker is on, seems to be what causes all the other circuits to be H-
N, H-G, or in the case of the office AC, all the lights come on, which
is a condition that the legend on the tester does not even address.

Lights, saws, drills, etc all seem to work fine.

I added d, f, and g. (d) used to be apart of (e), but I ran a
seperate circuit.



*I would take apart that circuit (g) and see what's going on. Open up the
220 volt outlets. Open up the circuit breaker panel. Check all connections
and make sure everything is wired correctly. After that check without
anything plugged in. If there is still a problem check everything else
starting with d and f.

coloradotrout wrote:
On Dec 24, 11:09 am, coloradotrout wrote:
On Dec 24, 8:33 am, Kevin Ricks wrote:





coloradotrout wrote:
Off of 1 panel I have:
3 220V circuits
4 110V circuits
When one of the 220V breakers is on, all the 110 circuits display some
kind of "error" -- either hot/neu reversed or hot/grn reversed, or in
one case all 3 lights come on! (which is not suppose to be an
option!).
The plug testers do not indicate correctly if there a
- Other loads connected and turned on.
- multiple wiring errors.
Make sure all loads (lights, appliances, doorbell transformer etc) are
either turned off or disconnected if hard wired.
It's the same error on each circuit, just different errors
depending on which circuit it is.
Is it the same error or different error??
When I flip off that one 220V break, all the circuits read fine.
What could it be? The 220V circuit has 3 outlets on it. And they all
work.
Typically when there is an open neutral in one of the 120V circuits all
the 220V circuits work fine.
What are you using to determine if they work? An appliance or light
bulb? Or just a meter? A meter will not give correct results either if
there is a problem such as an open neutral and you have other loads
turned on.
By turned on I mean switched on. (The item will not necessarily be
working depending on the wiring error present).
Kevin
The 220V circuits use 3 wires - black, white, ground. Black and white
go to the breaker.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
The issues only exist when that 1 220V breaker is on. If I flip it
off, all receptacles test out fine.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Cicuits
=========================
a)110v - office lights and outlets
b)110v - office AC - single outlet
c)220v - office heat - hardwired

d)110v - shop lights
e)110v - shop outlets
f)220v - shop dust collector outlet - single 20A outlet
g)220v - shop outlets - 3 20A outlets -- THIS IS THE ONE that when its
breaker is on, seems to be what causes all the other circuits to be H-
N, H-G, or in the case of the office AC, all the lights come on, which
is a condition that the legend on the tester does not even address.

Lights, saws, drills, etc all seem to work fine.

I added d, f, and g. (d) used to be apart of (e), but I ran a
seperate circuit.


If nothing is plugged into any of the (g) outlets, is there still a problem?

If the building has unaffected outlets, I like Bud's idea of using an
extension cord to bring in a good ground to check the ground and neutral
at an affected outlet.

It could be more foolproof to check for ground and neutral voltage with
reference to the bare cable at the service entrance. I'd use a volt
meter. An extension cord can be used to carry outlet voltages to the
cable, or a wire can be used to carry the cable ground to an outlet.

DO NOT TAKE CHANCES WITH YOUR LIFE! If any of this is beyond your
abilities/experience, don't do it! I'm simply assuming from your
descrip that you have some kind of background to know enough to carry
out simple troubleshooting procedures. ELECTRICITY KILLS, and pretty
quickly. If it doesn't kill, it's also a good vegetable maker. If it
doesn't turn you into a vegetable, it can still break a bone because of
your knee-jerk reaction to the shock. In other words, you jump, your
knee meets the wall, and breaks your kneecap! Or something gets you in
the crotch and it's just a ball buster, but it's still pretty danred
dangerous! Not to mention painful when you come to.
Be considerate of those who may have to find your body so soon after
Christmas and call a contractor if you can't do these things safely.
It's too early in the year for a funeral or a series of hospital visits.

You just about have to have a miswire, IMO.

220Vac wiring & pictures:
http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?actio...220outlet.html
http://www.xomba.com/how_to_wire_a_220v_wall_outlet
http://www.misterfixit.com/hotnot.htm
http://forum.doityourself.com/home-a...lt-wiring.html


Off of 1 panel I have:
3 220V circuits
4 110V circuits

When one of the 220V breakers is on, all the 110 circuits display some
kind of "error" -- either hot/neu reversed or hot/grn reversed, or in
one case all 3 lights come on! (which is not suppose to be an
option!). It's the same error on each circuit, just different errors
depending on which circuit it is.

When I flip off that one 220V break, all the circuits read fine.

What could it be? The 220V circuit has 3 outlets on it. And they all
work.

ARE THEY 220Vac OUtlets? Or 110V?

WHAT is plugged into them? 220V with 2 hots and an earth is known as
2-wire. Do you have any 3-wire (requireing 4 physical wires) plugged
into them? Unplug everything for the testing.


The 220V circuits use 3 wires - black, white, ground. Black and white
go to the breaker.

You indicate a 220 ckt with 2 hots and an Earth. There ARE 220 ckts
with 2 hots, neutral AND earth, but that's not what you described.

If turning on the 220Vac breaker is causing the 110V lines to display
errors, then there is a fairly serious miswire somewhere. It obviously
"feels" like the 220V ckt is miswired since turning it off gets you good
indications on the 110V ckts.

You can do all this from the breaker box end if you have a friend to do
the shorting/switching around at the other end.

You are apparently North America so 110 ckts have a hot, neutral and
Earth connection (Blk, Wh, Grn( or bare)).

220 ckts should have 2 hots and one earth connection. Right?
Assuming the black is properly 110V, then the white must be the other
110V leg, and should be tagged/marked/colored somehow as being Red.
Between the two there will be 220V (blk to wh(red). .

The remaining third wire then is earth ground, and green if it's
insulated. Right? There will be 110V between the Blk and Wh(Red) wires
and the earth ground.
The third wire should not be a Neutral; it should be ground. And it
should earth the metal receptacle block.
Even though they connect together in the breaker box, neutral and
earth are NOT the same thing.

Except for the Earth connection, there should be NO voltages between the
black of the 220 lines and the black of the 110 lines. It should
measure 0Vac.
From the red wire of the 220V line, there should be 220V between it and
the black wire of the 110V lines.
If it's just the opposite then there is a wiring reversal.

So if I were you I'd start by checking out the 220V ckts first, after
verifying as much of the above as you can.

Turn OFF power at the Mains breaker so the whole panel is dead because I
suspect you have a miswire in one of the hot leads. NOTE: THERE IS
STILL POWER IN SOME AREAS OF THE BOX, SO TOUCH NOTHING YOU DON'T HAVE TO
AND IF DOUBT, MEASURE FOR VOLTAGE FIRST!!

Using an ohmmeter (a Radio Shack $7 special works fine for this
purpose) make sure nothing is plugged into ANY of the outlets, anything
that's hard-wired in is turned OFF, and disconnect the wires from the
breaker.
Now check for no more than an ohm or so of resistance in ANY of the
wires, and determine exactly where each wire goes.
Check for an open circuit between each black and white wire of both
ckts. If any show continuity, something is miswired.
Check for continuity between the earth ground of the 220 to the earth
of the 110, and an ohm or two higher between neutral of the 110 V ckt
and the Gnd of the 220V ckt. In no event should you read more than a few
ohms of resistance; it depends on how long the wires are exactly what
number it will read. If you're lucky the numbers will be 0 ohms.

Hot needs to go to the Hot on its respective breaker, and nowhere else.
Be sure to check that it goes NO WHERE ELSE! Because it might. Check
by testing continuity to all the other wires it is NOT supposed to go
to, too.

White, which apparently is really red, goes to the other breaker in
the ganged breaker set and nowhere else. Be sure to check that it goes
NO WHERE ELSE! Because it might. Check by testing continuity to all
the other wires it is NOT supposed to go to, too.

There is no neutral involved. Make sure none of the wires is connected
to neutral.

The Earth needs to go directly to the breaker box earthing blocks. And
nowhere else.

If that seems confusing, there are step by steps that can be provided to
make things clearer for using the ohmmeter. Haveing a reliable helper
is a great asset too.
All the measurements can be done from the breaker box end.

There are other methods too, but with power off is easily the safest
when a miswire is suspected. If you need schematics, drawings, they can
be provided too. Wikipedia is a good place to get general pics &
information and has a bunch of links to more detailed information.

If none of this makes any sense to you, then you should bring in a
qualified contractor to look at the job.

On Wed, 24 Dec 2008 20:48:50 -0500, "Twayne"
wrote:

DO NOT TAKE CHANCES WITH YOUR LIFE! If any of this is beyond your
abilities/experience, don't do it!

Or get it on video.

Just kidding.
Merry Christmas

On Dec 24, 10:20*pm, metspitzer wrote:
On Wed, 24 Dec 2008 20:48:50 -0500, "Twayne"

wrote:
DO NOT TAKE CHANCES WITH YOUR LIFE! If any of this is beyond your
abilities/experience, don't do it! *

Or get it on video. *

Just kidding.
Merry Christmas

I will certainly have a look.

The 220V circuits are 3 wire - black, white (red) and bare (earth
ground).

I was meticulous when I wired in the cicuits - d, f, and g. But it
almost seems certain that the issue must be in the 3 outlet 220V
circuit. When I turn off it's breaker, all the other 110v outlets
test OK. The outlets are 20A outlets. They are wired one above the
other, 3 in a row vertically. If I switched black and white (red)
from one side of the outlet to the other would that cause any issues?
Shouldn't right? It's still 110V on either side - should make no
difference which side is black and which is white (red). At the
breaker - black goes to one terminal of the breaker and white goes to
the other - and ground goes to the ground block (not the neutral
block).

I suppose one of those 20A 220v outlets could have a problem?

"coloradotrout" wrote in message
...
On Dec 24, 10:20 pm, metspitzer wrote:
On Wed, 24 Dec 2008 20:48:50 -0500, "Twayne"

wrote:
DO NOT TAKE CHANCES WITH YOUR LIFE! If any of this is beyond your
abilities/experience, don't do it!

Or get it on video.

Just kidding.
Merry Christmas

I will certainly have a look.

The 220V circuits are 3 wire - black, white (red) and bare (earth
ground).

I was meticulous when I wired in the cicuits - d, f, and g. But it
almost seems certain that the issue must be in the 3 outlet 220V
circuit. When I turn off it's breaker, all the other 110v outlets
test OK. The outlets are 20A outlets. They are wired one above the
other, 3 in a row vertically. If I switched black and white (red)
from one side of the outlet to the other would that cause any issues?
Shouldn't right? It's still 110V on either side - should make no
difference which side is black and which is white (red). At the
breaker - black goes to one terminal of the breaker and white goes to
the other - and ground goes to the ground block (not the neutral
block).

I suppose one of those 20A 220v outlets could have a problem?



* My first thought is that there may be a problem with whatever is plugged
into those outlets. You didn't mention if you had disconnected the
equipment from the receptacles when you did your testing.

On Dec 26, 7:55*am, "John Grabowski" wrote:
"coloradotrout" wrote in message

...
On Dec 24, 10:20 pm, metspitzer wrote:

On Wed, 24 Dec 2008 20:48:50 -0500, "Twayne"

wrote:
DO NOT TAKE CHANCES WITH YOUR LIFE! If any of this is beyond your
abilities/experience, don't do it!

Or get it on video.

Just kidding.
Merry Christmas

I will certainly have a look.

The 220V circuits are 3 wire - black, white (red) and bare (earth
ground).

I was meticulous when I wired in the cicuits - d, f, and g. *But it
almost seems certain that the issue must be in the 3 outlet 220V
circuit. * When I turn off it's breaker, all the other 110v outlets
test OK. *The outlets are 20A outlets. *They are wired one above the
other, 3 in a row vertically. *If I switched black and white (red)
from one side of the outlet to the other would that cause any issues?
Shouldn't right? * It's still 110V on either side - should make no
difference which side is black and which is white (red). * At the
breaker - black goes to one terminal of the breaker and white goes to
the other - and ground goes to the ground block (not the neutral
block).

I suppose one of those 20A 220v outlets could have a problem?

* My first thought is that there may be a problem with whatever is plugged
into those outlets. *You didn't mention if you had disconnected the
equipment from the receptacles when you did your testing.

Problem Identified - Problem Solved

On that suspect 220v circuit there was one outlet that had a ground
wire that was poking into the white (hot in the case of 220v).

Lesson -- clip off any wires that extend beyond the outlet. I had
just wrapped the ground around the outlet post and tightened the screw
down, but left 3/8" or so sticking out. That little amount, when
pushed into the box, was able to penetrate into the white.

So , in essense, my ground circuit had 110v on it.

coloradotrout wrote:
On Dec 26, 7:55 am, "John Grabowski" wrote:
"coloradotrout" wrote in message

...
On Dec 24, 10:20 pm, metspitzer wrote:

On Wed, 24 Dec 2008 20:48:50 -0500, "Twayne"
wrote:
DO NOT TAKE CHANCES WITH YOUR LIFE! If any of this is beyond your
abilities/experience, don't do it!
Or get it on video.
Just kidding.
Merry Christmas
I will certainly have a look.

The 220V circuits are 3 wire - black, white (red) and bare (earth
ground).

I was meticulous when I wired in the cicuits - d, f, and g. But it
almost seems certain that the issue must be in the 3 outlet 220V
circuit. When I turn off it's breaker, all the other 110v outlets
test OK. The outlets are 20A outlets. They are wired one above the
other, 3 in a row vertically. If I switched black and white (red)
from one side of the outlet to the other would that cause any issues?
Shouldn't right? It's still 110V on either side - should make no
difference which side is black and which is white (red). At the
breaker - black goes to one terminal of the breaker and white goes to
the other - and ground goes to the ground block (not the neutral
block).

I suppose one of those 20A 220v outlets could have a problem?

* My first thought is that there may be a problem with whatever is plugged
into those outlets. You didn't mention if you had disconnected the
equipment from the receptacles when you did your testing.

Problem Identified - Problem Solved

On that suspect 220v circuit there was one outlet that had a ground
wire that was poking into the white (hot in the case of 220v).

Lesson -- clip off any wires that extend beyond the outlet. I had
just wrapped the ground around the outlet post and tightened the screw
down, but left 3/8" or so sticking out. That little amount, when
pushed into the box, was able to penetrate into the white.

So , in essense, my ground circuit had 110v on it.

Nice to hear what the problem was.

But you can't have 110V on a ground unless you have a bad ground
connection back the service. If the ground was continuous there would be
high current which would trip the breaker or burn some wires open
(probably at the point of your fault). That is the point of having a ground.

--
bud--

On Jan 1, 3:28*pm, bud-- wrote:
coloradotrout wrote:
On Dec 26, 7:55 am, "John Grabowski" wrote:
"coloradotrout" wrote in message

....
On Dec 24, 10:20 pm, metspitzer wrote:

On Wed, 24 Dec 2008 20:48:50 -0500, "Twayne"
wrote:
DO NOT TAKE CHANCES WITH YOUR LIFE! If any of this is beyond your
abilities/experience, don't do it!
Or get it on video.
Just kidding.
Merry Christmas
I will certainly have a look.

The 220V circuits are 3 wire - black, white (red) and bare (earth
ground).

I was meticulous when I wired in the cicuits - d, f, and g. *But it
almost seems certain that the issue must be in the 3 outlet 220V
circuit. * When I turn off it's breaker, all the other 110v outlets
test OK. *The outlets are 20A outlets. *They are wired one above the
other, 3 in a row vertically. *If I switched black and white (red)
from one side of the outlet to the other would that cause any issues?
Shouldn't right? * It's still 110V on either side - should make no
difference which side is black and which is white (red). * At the
breaker - black goes to one terminal of the breaker and white goes to
the other - and ground goes to the ground block (not the neutral
block).

I suppose one of those 20A 220v outlets could have a problem?

* My first thought is that there may be a problem with whatever is plugged
into those outlets. *You didn't mention if you had disconnected the
equipment from the receptacles when you did your testing.

Problem Identified - Problem Solved

On that suspect 220v circuit there was one outlet that had a ground
wire that was poking into the white (hot in the case of 220v).

Lesson -- clip off any wires that extend beyond the outlet. *I had
just wrapped the ground around the outlet post and tightened the screw
down, but left 3/8" or so sticking out. *That little amount, when
pushed into the box, was able to penetrate into the white.

So , in essense, my ground circuit had 110v on it.

Nice to hear what the problem was.

But you can't have 110V on a ground unless you have a bad ground
connection back the service. If the ground was continuous there would be
high current which would trip the breaker or burn some wires open
(probably at the point of your fault). That is the point of having a ground.

--
bud--- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Understand. So, all the circuits check out OK now (the tester does
not work on the 220v ones however). I was thinking the same -- if one
side of the 220 was grounded, it would have tripped the 220v breaker,
but it did not. So that suggests the ground may have an open
somewhere - correct? Hmmm.. another mystery. Makes be wonder if
the box has a good earth ground or not.

coloradotrout wrote:
On Jan 1, 3:28 pm, bud-- wrote:
coloradotrout wrote:
On Dec 26, 7:55 am, "John Grabowski" wrote:
"coloradotrout" wrote in message
...
On Dec 24, 10:20 pm, metspitzer wrote:
On Wed, 24 Dec 2008 20:48:50 -0500, "Twayne"
wrote:
DO NOT TAKE CHANCES WITH YOUR LIFE! If any of this is beyond your
abilities/experience, don't do it!
Or get it on video.
Just kidding.
Merry Christmas
I will certainly have a look.
The 220V circuits are 3 wire - black, white (red) and bare (earth
ground).
I was meticulous when I wired in the cicuits - d, f, and g. But it
almost seems certain that the issue must be in the 3 outlet 220V
circuit. When I turn off it's breaker, all the other 110v outlets
test OK. The outlets are 20A outlets. They are wired one above the
other, 3 in a row vertically. If I switched black and white (red)
from one side of the outlet to the other would that cause any issues?
Shouldn't right? It's still 110V on either side - should make no
difference which side is black and which is white (red). At the
breaker - black goes to one terminal of the breaker and white goes to
the other - and ground goes to the ground block (not the neutral
block).
I suppose one of those 20A 220v outlets could have a problem?
* My first thought is that there may be a problem with whatever is plugged
into those outlets. You didn't mention if you had disconnected the
equipment from the receptacles when you did your testing.
Problem Identified - Problem Solved
On that suspect 220v circuit there was one outlet that had a ground
wire that was poking into the white (hot in the case of 220v).
Lesson -- clip off any wires that extend beyond the outlet. I had
just wrapped the ground around the outlet post and tightened the screw
down, but left 3/8" or so sticking out. That little amount, when
pushed into the box, was able to penetrate into the white.
So , in essense, my ground circuit had 110v on it.

Nice to hear what the problem was.

But you can't have 110V on a ground unless you have a bad ground
connection back the service. If the ground was continuous there would be
high current which would trip the breaker or burn some wires open
(probably at the point of your fault). That is the point of having a ground.


Understand. So, all the circuits check out OK now (the tester does
not work on the 220v ones however).

If the simple plug-in 3-lite testers indicate a problem, there probably
is one.

They can not reliably indicate there is no problem. A high resistance
ground is one of the problems they can not detect (they don't use enough
current when testing).

I was thinking the same -- if one
side of the 220 was grounded, it would have tripped the 220v breaker,
but it did not. So that suggests the ground may have an open
somewhere - correct? Hmmm.. another mystery.

Any receptacle that gave a "funny" indication had a bad ground. It could
be a circuit or the whole panel.

Not only are some outlets not grounded, if a failure at one outlet makes
that ground "hot" many other outlet grounds are "hot". Real bad condition.

To test the ground, connect a light bulb from hot to ground. If the bulb
does not light the ground is open. The bulb should light at full brightness.

Makes be wonder if
the box has a good earth ground or not.

It is not an earth ground problem.

The "ground" wires return to the service. At that point there is a
connection between the "grounds" and the incoming service neutral. (This
is typically a screw from the neutral bus to the enclosure.) On a fault,
like yours, the ground wires go back to the service panel, connect to
the service neutral, and go to the power transformer. That gives a high
current path that will trip a circuit breaker. This is a main function
of "ground" wires, and will happen without an earth connection.

Connection of "ground" (and neutral) wires to the earth keeps a low
potential with respect to the earth. If the "ground wire"-neutral bond
at the service is missing, there will be some return through the
earthing electrode, through the earth, to the earthing electrode at the
transformer. If you had a quite good resistance to earth of 10 ohms,
your fault (120V to earth) would produce a current of 12 amps - not
likely to trip a 15A breaker - there would be a significant delay even
if the breaker was fully loaded.

--
bud--

On Jan 3, 11:54*am, bud-- wrote:
coloradotrout wrote:
On Jan 1, 3:28 pm, bud-- wrote:
coloradotrout wrote:
On Dec 26, 7:55 am, "John Grabowski" wrote:
"coloradotrout" wrote in message
...
On Dec 24, 10:20 pm, metspitzer wrote:
On Wed, 24 Dec 2008 20:48:50 -0500, "Twayne"
wrote:
DO NOT TAKE CHANCES WITH YOUR LIFE! If any of this is beyond your
abilities/experience, don't do it!
Or get it on video.
Just kidding.
Merry Christmas
I will certainly have a look.
The 220V circuits are 3 wire - black, white (red) and bare (earth
ground).
I was meticulous when I wired in the cicuits - d, f, and g. *But it
almost seems certain that the issue must be in the 3 outlet 220V
circuit. * When I turn off it's breaker, all the other 110v outlets
test OK. *The outlets are 20A outlets. *They are wired one above the
other, 3 in a row vertically. *If I switched black and white (red)
from one side of the outlet to the other would that cause any issues?
Shouldn't right? * It's still 110V on either side - should make no
difference which side is black and which is white (red). * At the
breaker - black goes to one terminal of the breaker and white goes to
the other - and ground goes to the ground block (not the neutral
block).
I suppose one of those 20A 220v outlets could have a problem?
* My first thought is that there may be a problem with whatever is plugged
into those outlets. *You didn't mention if you had disconnected the
equipment from the receptacles when you did your testing.
Problem Identified - Problem Solved
On that suspect 220v circuit there was one outlet that had a ground
wire that was poking into the white (hot in the case of 220v).
Lesson -- clip off any wires that extend beyond the outlet. *I had
just wrapped the ground around the outlet post and tightened the screw
down, but left 3/8" or so sticking out. *That little amount, when
pushed into the box, was able to penetrate into the white.
So , in essense, my ground circuit had 110v on it.

Nice to hear what the problem was.

But you can't have 110V on a ground unless you have a bad ground
connection back the service. If the ground was continuous there would be
high current which would trip the breaker or burn some wires open
(probably at the point of your fault). That is the point of having a ground.

Understand. *So, all the circuits check out OK now (the tester does
not work on the 220v ones however).

If the simple plug-in 3-lite testers indicate a problem, there probably
is one.

They can not reliably indicate there is no problem. A high resistance
ground is one of the problems they can not detect (they don't use enough
current when testing).

I was thinking the same -- if one
side of the 220 was grounded, it would have tripped the 220v breaker,
but it did not. * So that suggests the ground may have an open
somewhere - correct? *Hmmm.. * *another mystery.

Any receptacle that gave a "funny" indication had a bad ground. It could
be a circuit or the whole panel.

Not only are some outlets not grounded, if a failure at one outlet makes
that ground "hot" many other outlet grounds are "hot". Real bad condition..

To test the ground, connect a light bulb from hot to ground. If the bulb
does not light the ground is open. The bulb should light at full brightness.

Makes be wonder if
the box has a good earth ground or not.

It is not an earth ground problem.

The "ground" wires return to the service. At that point there is a
connection between the "grounds" and the incoming service neutral. (This
is typically a screw from the neutral bus to the enclosure.) On a fault,
like yours, the ground wires go back to the service panel, connect to
the service neutral, and go to the power transformer. That gives a high
current path that will trip a circuit breaker. This is a main function
of "ground" wires, and will happen without an earth connection.

Connection of "ground" (and neutral) wires to the earth keeps a low
potential with respect to the earth. If the "ground wire"-neutral bond
at the service is missing, there will be some return through the
earthing electrode, through the earth, to the earthing electrode at the
transformer. If you had a quite good resistance to earth of 10 ohms,
your fault (120V to earth) would produce a current of 12 amps - not
likely to trip a 15A breaker - there would be a significant delay even
if the breaker was fully loaded.

--
bud--- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Bud,

So I should look in my panel and see that the neutral is grounded to
the box?

I thought I recall seeing 3 large wires coming into the box - hot,
hot, and neutral. The box itself then has a ground bar and two
neutral bars ( I think). I do not recall seeing any neutral to box
connection.

On Jan 4, 5:33*pm, coloradotrout wrote:
On Jan 3, 11:54*am, bud-- wrote:





coloradotrout wrote:
On Jan 1, 3:28 pm, bud-- wrote:
coloradotrout wrote:
On Dec 26, 7:55 am, "John Grabowski" wrote:
"coloradotrout" wrote in message
...
On Dec 24, 10:20 pm, metspitzer wrote:
On Wed, 24 Dec 2008 20:48:50 -0500, "Twayne"
wrote:
DO NOT TAKE CHANCES WITH YOUR LIFE! If any of this is beyond your
abilities/experience, don't do it!
Or get it on video.
Just kidding.
Merry Christmas
I will certainly have a look.
The 220V circuits are 3 wire - black, white (red) and bare (earth
ground).
I was meticulous when I wired in the cicuits - d, f, and g. *But it
almost seems certain that the issue must be in the 3 outlet 220V
circuit. * When I turn off it's breaker, all the other 110v outlets
test OK. *The outlets are 20A outlets. *They are wired one above the
other, 3 in a row vertically. *If I switched black and white (red)
from one side of the outlet to the other would that cause any issues?
Shouldn't right? * It's still 110V on either side - should make no
difference which side is black and which is white (red). * At the
breaker - black goes to one terminal of the breaker and white goes to
the other - and ground goes to the ground block (not the neutral
block).
I suppose one of those 20A 220v outlets could have a problem?
* My first thought is that there may be a problem with whatever is plugged
into those outlets. *You didn't mention if you had disconnected the
equipment from the receptacles when you did your testing.
Problem Identified - Problem Solved
On that suspect 220v circuit there was one outlet that had a ground
wire that was poking into the white (hot in the case of 220v).
Lesson -- clip off any wires that extend beyond the outlet. *I had
just wrapped the ground around the outlet post and tightened the screw
down, but left 3/8" or so sticking out. *That little amount, when
pushed into the box, was able to penetrate into the white.
So , in essense, my ground circuit had 110v on it.

Nice to hear what the problem was.

But you can't have 110V on a ground unless you have a bad ground
connection back the service. If the ground was continuous there would be
high current which would trip the breaker or burn some wires open
(probably at the point of your fault). That is the point of having a ground.

Understand. *So, all the circuits check out OK now (the tester does
not work on the 220v ones however).

If the simple plug-in 3-lite testers indicate a problem, there probably
is one.

They can not reliably indicate there is no problem. A high resistance
ground is one of the problems they can not detect (they don't use enough
current when testing).

I was thinking the same -- if one
side of the 220 was grounded, it would have tripped the 220v breaker,
but it did not. * So that suggests the ground may have an open
somewhere - correct? *Hmmm.. * *another mystery.

Any receptacle that gave a "funny" indication had a bad ground. It could
be a circuit or the whole panel.

Not only are some outlets not grounded, if a failure at one outlet makes
that ground "hot" many other outlet grounds are "hot". Real bad condition.

To test the ground, connect a light bulb from hot to ground. If the bulb
does not light the ground is open. The bulb should light at full brightness.

Makes be wonder if
the box has a good earth ground or not.

It is not an earth ground problem.

The "ground" wires return to the service. At that point there is a
connection between the "grounds" and the incoming service neutral. (This
is typically a screw from the neutral bus to the enclosure.) On a fault,
like yours, the ground wires go back to the service panel, connect to
the service neutral, and go to the power transformer. That gives a high
current path that will trip a circuit breaker. This is a main function
of "ground" wires, and will happen without an earth connection.

Connection of "ground" (and neutral) wires to the earth keeps a low
potential with respect to the earth. If the "ground wire"-neutral bond
at the service is missing, there will be some return through the
earthing electrode, through the earth, to the earthing electrode at the
transformer. If you had a quite good resistance to earth of 10 ohms,
your fault (120V to earth) would produce a current of 12 amps - not
likely to trip a 15A breaker - there would be a significant delay even
if the breaker was fully loaded.

--
bud--- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Bud,

So I should look in my panel and see that the neutral is grounded to
the box?

I thought I recall seeing 3 large wires coming into the box - hot,
hot, and neutral. *The box itself then has a ground bar and two
neutral bars ( I think). *I do not recall seeing any neutral to box
connection.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Suspect the OP does not understand wiring sufficiently and/or has made
basic error in wiring.

Also is this being wired from the main panel of the house or pony
panel? There is mention of "three wires coming into the panel"! And no
connection between neutral and ground; so it's a sub panel?

Also we are talking 230 volt outlets; not what are sometimes called
Edison outlets or here sometimes called 'split outlets'?????

Split outlets (allow you to plug in more load). Namely when the
connection between the upper and lower parts of a duplex is
deliberately broken by removing that link on the hot side of the
duplex and a common neutral is used, the upper half uses one 115 volt
leg (say red) and the other half uses the other leg (say black). Thus
effectively two separate outlets on the same 230 volt common neutral
circuit breaker.

And who is to say the pony (if indeed it is that) is wired correctly?
Very confusing; but sounds like it would take less than an hour to
sort out!

On Jan 4, 2:51*pm, terry wrote:
On Jan 4, 5:33*pm, coloradotrout wrote:





On Jan 3, 11:54*am, bud-- wrote:

coloradotrout wrote:
On Jan 1, 3:28 pm, bud-- wrote:
coloradotrout wrote:
On Dec 26, 7:55 am, "John Grabowski" wrote:
"coloradotrout" wrote in message
...
On Dec 24, 10:20 pm, metspitzer wrote:
On Wed, 24 Dec 2008 20:48:50 -0500, "Twayne"
wrote:
DO NOT TAKE CHANCES WITH YOUR LIFE! If any of this is beyond your
abilities/experience, don't do it!
Or get it on video.
Just kidding.
Merry Christmas
I will certainly have a look.
The 220V circuits are 3 wire - black, white (red) and bare (earth
ground).
I was meticulous when I wired in the cicuits - d, f, and g. *But it
almost seems certain that the issue must be in the 3 outlet 220V
circuit. * When I turn off it's breaker, all the other 110v outlets
test OK. *The outlets are 20A outlets. *They are wired one above the
other, 3 in a row vertically. *If I switched black and white (red)
from one side of the outlet to the other would that cause any issues?
Shouldn't right? * It's still 110V on either side - should make no
difference which side is black and which is white (red). * At the
breaker - black goes to one terminal of the breaker and white goes to
the other - and ground goes to the ground block (not the neutral
block).
I suppose one of those 20A 220v outlets could have a problem?
* My first thought is that there may be a problem with whatever is plugged
into those outlets. *You didn't mention if you had disconnected the
equipment from the receptacles when you did your testing.
Problem Identified - Problem Solved
On that suspect 220v circuit there was one outlet that had a ground
wire that was poking into the white (hot in the case of 220v).
Lesson -- clip off any wires that extend beyond the outlet. *I had
just wrapped the ground around the outlet post and tightened the screw
down, but left 3/8" or so sticking out. *That little amount, when
pushed into the box, was able to penetrate into the white.
So , in essense, my ground circuit had 110v on it.

Nice to hear what the problem was.

But you can't have 110V on a ground unless you have a bad ground
connection back the service. If the ground was continuous there would be
high current which would trip the breaker or burn some wires open
(probably at the point of your fault). That is the point of having a ground.

Understand. *So, all the circuits check out OK now (the tester does
not work on the 220v ones however).

If the simple plug-in 3-lite testers indicate a problem, there probably
is one.

They can not reliably indicate there is no problem. A high resistance
ground is one of the problems they can not detect (they don't use enough
current when testing).

I was thinking the same -- if one
side of the 220 was grounded, it would have tripped the 220v breaker,
but it did not. * So that suggests the ground may have an open
somewhere - correct? *Hmmm.. * *another mystery.

Any receptacle that gave a "funny" indication had a bad ground. It could
be a circuit or the whole panel.

Not only are some outlets not grounded, if a failure at one outlet makes
that ground "hot" many other outlet grounds are "hot". Real bad condition.

To test the ground, connect a light bulb from hot to ground. If the bulb
does not light the ground is open. The bulb should light at full brightness.

Makes be wonder if
the box has a good earth ground or not.

It is not an earth ground problem.

The "ground" wires return to the service. At that point there is a
connection between the "grounds" and the incoming service neutral. (This
is typically a screw from the neutral bus to the enclosure.) On a fault,
like yours, the ground wires go back to the service panel, connect to
the service neutral, and go to the power transformer. That gives a high
current path that will trip a circuit breaker. This is a main function
of "ground" wires, and will happen without an earth connection.

Connection of "ground" (and neutral) wires to the earth keeps a low
potential with respect to the earth. If the "ground wire"-neutral bond
at the service is missing, there will be some return through the
earthing electrode, through the earth, to the earthing electrode at the
transformer. If you had a quite good resistance to earth of 10 ohms,
your fault (120V to earth) would produce a current of 12 amps - not
likely to trip a 15A breaker - there would be a significant delay even
if the breaker was fully loaded.

--
bud--- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Bud,

So I should look in my panel and see that the neutral is grounded to
the box?

I thought I recall seeing 3 large wires coming into the box - hot,
hot, and neutral. *The box itself then has a ground bar and two
neutral bars ( I think). *I do not recall seeing any neutral to box
connection.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Suspect the OP does not understand wiring sufficiently and/or has made
basic error in wiring.

Also is this being wired from the main panel of the house or pony
panel? There is mention of "three wires coming into the panel"! And no
connection between neutral and ground; so it's a sub panel?

Also we are talking 230 volt outlets; not what are sometimes called
Edison outlets or here sometimes called 'split outlets'?????

Split outlets (allow you to plug in more load). Namely when the
connection between the upper and lower parts of a duplex is
deliberately broken by removing that link on the hot side of the
duplex and a common neutral is used, the upper half uses one 115 volt
leg (say red) and the other half uses the other leg (say black). Thus
effectively two separate outlets on the same 230 volt common neutral
circuit breaker.

And who is to say the pony (if indeed it is that) is wired correctly?
Very confusing; but sounds like it would take less than an hour to
sort out!- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I'm not wiring expert, but the panel was already in-place. From the
pole there is a 100A breaker that feeds this panel.

I added the circuits noted - 2 x 220V and 1 x 110V. For the 110v, I
wired white to the neutral bar (where the other 110v white wires were
connected, the bare ground to the bare ground bar, and the black to
the breaker. For the 220v circuits, bare ground to bare ground bar,
white to one screw on the breaker, and black to the other screw.
These are square D panel/breakers. Nothing fancy, all basic
components.

Note my last post -- the detected problems are resolved, but the
concern is I still have an open ground somewhere, else the previous
problem would have trippped a breaker.

On Jan 4, 11:17*pm, coloradotrout wrote:
On Jan 4, 2:51*pm, terry wrote:





On Jan 4, 5:33*pm, coloradotrout wrote:

On Jan 3, 11:54*am, bud-- wrote:

coloradotrout wrote:
On Jan 1, 3:28 pm, bud-- wrote:
coloradotrout wrote:
On Dec 26, 7:55 am, "John Grabowski" wrote:
"coloradotrout" wrote in message
...
On Dec 24, 10:20 pm, metspitzer wrote:
On Wed, 24 Dec 2008 20:48:50 -0500, "Twayne"
wrote:
DO NOT TAKE CHANCES WITH YOUR LIFE! If any of this is beyond your
abilities/experience, don't do it!
Or get it on video.
Just kidding.
Merry Christmas
I will certainly have a look.
The 220V circuits are 3 wire - black, white (red) and bare (earth
ground).
I was meticulous when I wired in the cicuits - d, f, and g. *But it
almost seems certain that the issue must be in the 3 outlet 220V
circuit. * When I turn off it's breaker, all the other 110v outlets
test OK. *The outlets are 20A outlets. *They are wired one above the
other, 3 in a row vertically. *If I switched black and white (red)
from one side of the outlet to the other would that cause any issues?
Shouldn't right? * It's still 110V on either side - should make no
difference which side is black and which is white (red). * At the
breaker - black goes to one terminal of the breaker and white goes to
the other - and ground goes to the ground block (not the neutral
block).
I suppose one of those 20A 220v outlets could have a problem?
* My first thought is that there may be a problem with whatever is plugged
into those outlets. *You didn't mention if you had disconnected the
equipment from the receptacles when you did your testing.
Problem Identified - Problem Solved
On that suspect 220v circuit there was one outlet that had a ground
wire that was poking into the white (hot in the case of 220v).
Lesson -- clip off any wires that extend beyond the outlet. *I had
just wrapped the ground around the outlet post and tightened the screw
down, but left 3/8" or so sticking out. *That little amount, when
pushed into the box, was able to penetrate into the white.
So , in essense, my ground circuit had 110v on it.

Nice to hear what the problem was.

But you can't have 110V on a ground unless you have a bad ground
connection back the service. If the ground was continuous there would be
high current which would trip the breaker or burn some wires open
(probably at the point of your fault). That is the point of having a ground.

Understand. *So, all the circuits check out OK now (the tester does
not work on the 220v ones however).

If the simple plug-in 3-lite testers indicate a problem, there probably
is one.

They can not reliably indicate there is no problem. A high resistance
ground is one of the problems they can not detect (they don't use enough
current when testing).

I was thinking the same -- if one
side of the 220 was grounded, it would have tripped the 220v breaker,
but it did not. * So that suggests the ground may have an open
somewhere - correct? *Hmmm.. * *another mystery.

Any receptacle that gave a "funny" indication had a bad ground. It could
be a circuit or the whole panel.

Not only are some outlets not grounded, if a failure at one outlet makes
that ground "hot" many other outlet grounds are "hot". Real bad condition.

To test the ground, connect a light bulb from hot to ground. If the bulb
does not light the ground is open. The bulb should light at full brightness.

Makes be wonder if
the box has a good earth ground or not.

It is not an earth ground problem.

The "ground" wires return to the service. At that point there is a
connection between the "grounds" and the incoming service neutral. (This
is typically a screw from the neutral bus to the enclosure.) On a fault,
like yours, the ground wires go back to the service panel, connect to
the service neutral, and go to the power transformer. That gives a high
current path that will trip a circuit breaker. This is a main function
of "ground" wires, and will happen without an earth connection.

Connection of "ground" (and neutral) wires to the earth keeps a low
potential with respect to the earth. If the "ground wire"-neutral bond
at the service is missing, there will be some return through the
earthing electrode, through the earth, to the earthing electrode at the
transformer. If you had a quite good resistance to earth of 10 ohms,
your fault (120V to earth) would produce a current of 12 amps - not
likely to trip a 15A breaker - there would be a significant delay even
if the breaker was fully loaded.

--
bud--- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Bud,

So I should look in my panel and see that the neutral is grounded to
the box?

I thought I recall seeing 3 large wires coming into the box - hot,
hot, and neutral. *The box itself then has a ground bar and two
neutral bars ( I think). *I do not recall seeing any neutral to box
connection.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Suspect the OP does not understand wiring sufficiently and/or has made
basic error in wiring.

Also is this being wired from the main panel of the house or pony
panel? There is mention of "three wires coming into the panel"! And no
connection between neutral and ground; so it's a sub panel?

Also we are talking 230 volt outlets; not what are sometimes called
Edison outlets or here sometimes called 'split outlets'?????

Split outlets (allow you to plug in more load). Namely when the
connection between the upper and lower parts of a duplex is
deliberately broken by removing that link on the hot side of the
duplex and a common neutral is used, the upper half uses one 115 volt
leg (say red) and the other half uses the other leg (say black). Thus
effectively two separate outlets on the same 230 volt common neutral
circuit breaker.

And who is to say the pony (if indeed it is that) is wired correctly?
Very confusing; but sounds like it would take less than an hour to
sort out!- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I'm not wiring expert, but the panel was already in-place. *From the
pole there is a 100A breaker that feeds this panel.

I added the circuits noted - 2 x 220V and 1 x 110V. *For the 110v, I
wired white to the neutral bar (where the other 110v white wires were
connected, the bare ground to the bare ground bar, and the black to
the breaker. *For the 220v circuits, bare ground to bare ground bar,
white to one screw on the breaker, and black to the other screw.
These are square D panel/breakers. *Nothing fancy, all basic
components.

Note my last post -- the detected problems are resolved, but the
concern is I still have an open ground somewhere, else the previous
problem would have trippped a breaker.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Sounds correct. We have all square D breakers in main panel and two
pony panels and similar set up except we use red, black and white;
wiring 230 volts outlets to red, black and of course ground. And 115
volt outlets to black and neutral white. The locations we have 230
volt outlets is above work benches.
Agree it does now sound like an open ground somewhere and/or a ground
miswired and acting as as a neutral in some previous wiring?
BTW not trying to use one of those plug in tester to check 230 volt
circuits????
As indicated by one poster each side (leg) of the 230 volts should
have 115 volts to ground and to neutral. (and 230 volts between them).
If not potential to ground as perhaps indicated, open ground
somewhere.

coloradotrout wrote:

Any receptacle that gave a "funny" indication had a bad ground. It could
be a circuit or the whole panel.
Not only are some outlets not grounded, if a failure at one outlet makes
that ground "hot" many other outlet grounds are "hot". Real bad condition.
To test the ground, connect a light bulb from hot to ground. If the bulb
does not light the ground is open. The bulb should light at full brightness.

Makes be wonder if
the box has a good earth ground or not.

It is not an earth ground problem.
The "ground" wires return to the service. At that point there is a
connection between the "grounds" and the incoming service neutral. (This
is typically a screw from the neutral bus to the enclosure.) On a fault,
like yours, the ground wires go back to the service panel, connect to
the service neutral, and go to the power transformer. That gives a high
current path that will trip a circuit breaker. This is a main function
of "ground" wires, and will happen without an earth connection.
Connection of "ground" (and neutral) wires to the earth keeps a low
potential with respect to the earth. If the "ground wire"-neutral bond
at the service is missing, there will be some return through the
earthing electrode, through the earth, to the earthing electrode at the
transformer. If you had a quite good resistance to earth of 10 ohms,
your fault (120V to earth) would produce a current of 12 amps - not
likely to trip a 15A breaker - there would be a significant delay even
if the breaker was fully loaded.

Bud,
So I should look in my panel and see that the neutral is grounded to
the box?
I thought I recall seeing 3 large wires coming into the box - hot,
hot, and neutral. The box itself then has a ground bar and two
neutral bars ( I think). I do not recall seeing any neutral to box
connection.

Suspect the OP does not understand wiring sufficiently and/or has made
basic error in wiring.

Also is this being wired from the main panel of the house or pony
panel? There is mention of "three wires coming into the panel"! And no
connection between neutral and ground; so it's a sub panel?

Also we are talking 230 volt outlets; not what are sometimes called
Edison outlets or here sometimes called 'split outlets'?????

Split outlets (allow you to plug in more load). Namely when the
connection between the upper and lower parts of a duplex is
deliberately broken by removing that link on the hot side of the
duplex and a common neutral is used, the upper half uses one 115 volt
leg (say red) and the other half uses the other leg (say black). Thus
effectively two separate outlets on the same 230 volt common neutral
circuit breaker.

And who is to say the pony (if indeed it is that) is wired correctly?
Very confusing; but sounds like it would take less than an hour to
sort out!-

I'm not wiring expert, but the panel was already in-place. From the
pole there is a 100A breaker that feeds this panel.

I added the circuits noted - 2 x 220V and 1 x 110V. For the 110v, I
wired white to the neutral bar (where the other 110v white wires were
connected, the bare ground to the bare ground bar, and the black to
the breaker. For the 220v circuits, bare ground to bare ground bar,
white to one screw on the breaker, and black to the other screw.
These are square D panel/breakers. Nothing fancy, all basic
components.

Note my last post -- the detected problems are resolved, but the
concern is I still have an open ground somewhere, else the previous
problem would have trippped a breaker.


If there is an open ground you really need to fix it. If receptacles on
multiple circuits had "funny indications" I would suspect missing
ground-neutral connection at the panel if it is a service panel. Else it
might also be a defective ground on that circuit If it is a sub-panel
maybe a defective ground in the feed. If it is a sub-panel in a
different building, how is it fed - only 3 overhead wires? I gave you a
ground test using a light bulb.

If it is a service panel
- the utility supply will come in through a meter to the panel
- there will be no disconnect between the utility connection and the
main breaker in the panel.

If it is a service panel and wired to the National Electrical Code it
will have
- a heavy wire connected from neutral/ground bus to grounding
electrode(s); in older installations the water service pipe; in newer
installations an additional electrode, commonly a ground rod.
- and a jumper between the neutral bus and the enclosure.

If it is not a service panel, but is fed from a different building there
are options.

If there is a jumper between the neutral bus and enclosure, as I wrote
in a different post, it is commonly a screw from the neutral bus to the
enclosure. The SquareD panels I have seen it is an ordinary looking
round or pan head screw about 10-32. Sometimes they are colored green.
If it is not there, there should be an empty hole in the neutral bus.
The bonding screw is not obvious at all.

If this is a separate building, like a garage, it probably needs to be
wired similar to a service. (I have seen electricians argue about the
relevant code sections.) You have not provided enough information

You may want to call an electrician.

For your 220V circuits, if you are using Romex or other cable, the
"white" wire should have been covered with tape to make it a different
color than white or green. It should have been re-colored wherever the
wire appears. (If using fished wires, white shouldn't have been used.)

--
bud--

On Jan 5, 12:26*pm, bud-- wrote:
coloradotrout wrote:

*





Any receptacle that gave a "funny" indication had a bad ground. It could
be a circuit or the whole panel.
Not only are some outlets not grounded, if a failure at one outlet makes
that ground "hot" many other outlet grounds are "hot". Real bad condition.
To test the ground, connect a light bulb from hot to ground. If the bulb
does not light the ground is open. The bulb should light at full brightness.

Makes be wonder if
the box has a good earth ground or not.

It is not an earth ground problem.
The "ground" wires return to the service. At that point there is a
connection between the "grounds" and the incoming service neutral. (This
is typically a screw from the neutral bus to the enclosure.) On a fault,
like yours, the ground wires go back to the service panel, connect to
the service neutral, and go to the power transformer. That gives a high
current path that will trip a circuit breaker. This is a main function
of "ground" wires, and will happen without an earth connection.
Connection of "ground" (and neutral) wires to the earth keeps a low
potential with respect to the earth. If the "ground wire"-neutral bond
at the service is missing, there will be some return through the
earthing electrode, through the earth, to the earthing electrode at the
transformer. If you had a quite good resistance to earth of 10 ohms,
your fault (120V to earth) would produce a current of 12 amps - not
likely to trip a 15A breaker - there would be a significant delay even
if the breaker was fully loaded.

Bud,
So I should look in my panel and see that the neutral is grounded to
the box?
I thought I recall seeing 3 large wires coming into the box - hot,
hot, and neutral. *The box itself then has a ground bar and two
neutral bars ( I think). *I do not recall seeing any neutral to box
connection.

Suspect the OP does not understand wiring sufficiently and/or has made
basic error in wiring.

Also is this being wired from the main panel of the house or pony
panel? There is mention of "three wires coming into the panel"! And no
connection between neutral and ground; so it's a sub panel?

Also we are talking 230 volt outlets; not what are sometimes called
Edison outlets or here sometimes called 'split outlets'?????

Split outlets (allow you to plug in more load). Namely when the
connection between the upper and lower parts of a duplex is
deliberately broken by removing that link on the hot side of the
duplex and a common neutral is used, the upper half uses one 115 volt
leg (say red) and the other half uses the other leg (say black). Thus
effectively two separate outlets on the same 230 volt common neutral
circuit breaker.

And who is to say the pony (if indeed it is that) is wired correctly?
Very confusing; but sounds like it would take less than an hour to
sort out!-

I'm not wiring expert, but the panel was already in-place. *From the
pole there is a 100A breaker that feeds this panel.

I added the circuits noted - 2 x 220V and 1 x 110V. *For the 110v, I
wired white to the neutral bar (where the other 110v white wires were
connected, the bare ground to the bare ground bar, and the black to
the breaker. *For the 220v circuits, bare ground to bare ground bar,
white to one screw on the breaker, and black to the other screw.
These are square D panel/breakers. *Nothing fancy, all basic
components.

Note my last post -- the detected problems are resolved, but the
concern is I still have an open ground somewhere, else the previous
problem would have trippped a breaker.

If there is an open ground you really need to fix it. If receptacles on
multiple circuits had "funny indications" I would suspect missing
ground-neutral connection at the panel if it is a service panel. Else it
might also be a defective ground on that circuit *If it is a sub-panel
maybe a defective ground in the feed. If it is a sub-panel in a
different building, how is it fed - only 3 overhead wires? I gave you a
ground test using a light bulb.

If it is a service panel
- the utility supply will come in through a meter to the panel
- there will be no disconnect between the utility connection and the
main breaker in the panel.

If it is a service panel and wired to the National Electrical Code it
will have
- a heavy wire connected from neutral/ground bus to grounding
electrode(s); *in older installations the water service pipe; in newer
installations an additional electrode, commonly a ground rod.
- and a jumper between the neutral bus and the enclosure.

If it is not a service panel, but is fed from a different building there
are options.

If there is a jumper between the neutral bus and enclosure, as I wrote
in a different post, it is commonly a screw from the neutral bus to the
enclosure. The SquareD panels I have seen it is an ordinary looking
round or pan head screw about 10-32. Sometimes they are colored green.
If it is not there, there should be an empty hole in the neutral bus.
The bonding screw is not obvious at all.

If this is a separate building, like a garage, it probably needs to be
wired similar to a service. (I have seen electricians argue about the
relevant code sections.) You have not provided enough information

You may want to call an electrician.

For your 220V circuits, if you are using Romex *or other cable, the
"white" wire should have been covered with tape to make it a different
color than white or green. It should have been re-colored wherever the
wire appears. (If using fished wires, white shouldn't have been used.)

--
bud--- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I have not tried the ground testing yet (light bulb). The tester now
shows all circuits "correct". (but again, it's a 110 tester, so I
cannot plug it into the 220v outlets)

All tools, lights, etc work.

But since the original problem was the ground on a 220v outlet had
pierced the white wire (carrying 110v), the assertion here is that
something must have been wrong with the ground else the breaker would
have tripped. Seems reasonable. Seems like that outlet's ground wire
must not be a good ground (or else electricity would have been
continously flowing from 110v on one side of the 220v breaker to the
ground. That just bugs me. In essence if there was a short, it
should have tripped the 220v breaker -- or so I would think.

On Jan 5, 12:26*pm, bud-- wrote:
coloradotrout wrote:

*





Any receptacle that gave a "funny" indication had a bad ground. It could
be a circuit or the whole panel.
Not only are some outlets not grounded, if a failure at one outlet makes
that ground "hot" many other outlet grounds are "hot". Real bad condition.
To test the ground, connect a light bulb from hot to ground. If the bulb
does not light the ground is open. The bulb should light at full brightness.

Makes be wonder if
the box has a good earth ground or not.

It is not an earth ground problem.
The "ground" wires return to the service. At that point there is a
connection between the "grounds" and the incoming service neutral. (This
is typically a screw from the neutral bus to the enclosure.) On a fault,
like yours, the ground wires go back to the service panel, connect to
the service neutral, and go to the power transformer. That gives a high
current path that will trip a circuit breaker. This is a main function
of "ground" wires, and will happen without an earth connection.
Connection of "ground" (and neutral) wires to the earth keeps a low
potential with respect to the earth. If the "ground wire"-neutral bond
at the service is missing, there will be some return through the
earthing electrode, through the earth, to the earthing electrode at the
transformer. If you had a quite good resistance to earth of 10 ohms,
your fault (120V to earth) would produce a current of 12 amps - not
likely to trip a 15A breaker - there would be a significant delay even
if the breaker was fully loaded.

Bud,
So I should look in my panel and see that the neutral is grounded to
the box?
I thought I recall seeing 3 large wires coming into the box - hot,
hot, and neutral. *The box itself then has a ground bar and two
neutral bars ( I think). *I do not recall seeing any neutral to box
connection.

Suspect the OP does not understand wiring sufficiently and/or has made
basic error in wiring.

Also is this being wired from the main panel of the house or pony
panel? There is mention of "three wires coming into the panel"! And no
connection between neutral and ground; so it's a sub panel?

Also we are talking 230 volt outlets; not what are sometimes called
Edison outlets or here sometimes called 'split outlets'?????

Split outlets (allow you to plug in more load). Namely when the
connection between the upper and lower parts of a duplex is
deliberately broken by removing that link on the hot side of the
duplex and a common neutral is used, the upper half uses one 115 volt
leg (say red) and the other half uses the other leg (say black). Thus
effectively two separate outlets on the same 230 volt common neutral
circuit breaker.

And who is to say the pony (if indeed it is that) is wired correctly?
Very confusing; but sounds like it would take less than an hour to
sort out!-

I'm not wiring expert, but the panel was already in-place. *From the
pole there is a 100A breaker that feeds this panel.

I added the circuits noted - 2 x 220V and 1 x 110V. *For the 110v, I
wired white to the neutral bar (where the other 110v white wires were
connected, the bare ground to the bare ground bar, and the black to
the breaker. *For the 220v circuits, bare ground to bare ground bar,
white to one screw on the breaker, and black to the other screw.
These are square D panel/breakers. *Nothing fancy, all basic
components.

Note my last post -- the detected problems are resolved, but the
concern is I still have an open ground somewhere, else the previous
problem would have trippped a breaker.

If there is an open ground you really need to fix it. If receptacles on
multiple circuits had "funny indications" I would suspect missing
ground-neutral connection at the panel if it is a service panel. Else it
might also be a defective ground on that circuit *If it is a sub-panel
maybe a defective ground in the feed. If it is a sub-panel in a
different building, how is it fed - only 3 overhead wires? I gave you a
ground test using a light bulb.

If it is a service panel
- the utility supply will come in through a meter to the panel
- there will be no disconnect between the utility connection and the
main breaker in the panel.

If it is a service panel and wired to the National Electrical Code it
will have
- a heavy wire connected from neutral/ground bus to grounding
electrode(s); *in older installations the water service pipe; in newer
installations an additional electrode, commonly a ground rod.
- and a jumper between the neutral bus and the enclosure.

If it is not a service panel, but is fed from a different building there
are options.

If there is a jumper between the neutral bus and enclosure, as I wrote
in a different post, it is commonly a screw from the neutral bus to the
enclosure. The SquareD panels I have seen it is an ordinary looking
round or pan head screw about 10-32. Sometimes they are colored green.
If it is not there, there should be an empty hole in the neutral bus.
The bonding screw is not obvious at all.

If this is a separate building, like a garage, it probably needs to be
wired similar to a service. (I have seen electricians argue about the
relevant code sections.) You have not provided enough information

You may want to call an electrician.

For your 220V circuits, if you are using Romex *or other cable, the
"white" wire should have been covered with tape to make it a different
color than white or green. It should have been re-colored wherever the
wire appears. (If using fished wires, white shouldn't have been used.)

--
bud--- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The service comes down to the pole into a box. That box has a 100A
breaker that runs to the shop, and a 200A breaker that runs to the
house. The pole to shop is about 200 yards and there are 3 large
wires.

coloradotrout wrote:
On Jan 5, 12:26 pm, bud-- wrote:
coloradotrout wrote:







Any receptacle that gave a "funny" indication had a bad ground. It could
be a circuit or the whole panel.
Not only are some outlets not grounded, if a failure at one outlet makes
that ground "hot" many other outlet grounds are "hot". Real bad condition.
To test the ground, connect a light bulb from hot to ground. If the bulb
does not light the ground is open. The bulb should light at full brightness.
Makes be wonder if
the box has a good earth ground or not.
It is not an earth ground problem.
The "ground" wires return to the service. At that point there is a
connection between the "grounds" and the incoming service neutral. (This
is typically a screw from the neutral bus to the enclosure.) On a fault,
like yours, the ground wires go back to the service panel, connect to
the service neutral, and go to the power transformer. That gives a high
current path that will trip a circuit breaker. This is a main function
of "ground" wires, and will happen without an earth connection.
Connection of "ground" (and neutral) wires to the earth keeps a low
potential with respect to the earth. If the "ground wire"-neutral bond
at the service is missing, there will be some return through the
earthing electrode, through the earth, to the earthing electrode at the
transformer. If you had a quite good resistance to earth of 10 ohms,
your fault (120V to earth) would produce a current of 12 amps - not
likely to trip a 15A breaker - there would be a significant delay even
if the breaker was fully loaded.
Bud,
So I should look in my panel and see that the neutral is grounded to
the box?
I thought I recall seeing 3 large wires coming into the box - hot,
hot, and neutral. The box itself then has a ground bar and two
neutral bars ( I think). I do not recall seeing any neutral to box
connection.
Suspect the OP does not understand wiring sufficiently and/or has made
basic error in wiring.
Also is this being wired from the main panel of the house or pony
panel? There is mention of "three wires coming into the panel"! And no
connection between neutral and ground; so it's a sub panel?
Also we are talking 230 volt outlets; not what are sometimes called
Edison outlets or here sometimes called 'split outlets'?????
Split outlets (allow you to plug in more load). Namely when the
connection between the upper and lower parts of a duplex is
deliberately broken by removing that link on the hot side of the
duplex and a common neutral is used, the upper half uses one 115 volt
leg (say red) and the other half uses the other leg (say black). Thus
effectively two separate outlets on the same 230 volt common neutral
circuit breaker.
And who is to say the pony (if indeed it is that) is wired correctly?
Very confusing; but sounds like it would take less than an hour to
sort out!-
I'm not wiring expert, but the panel was already in-place. From the
pole there is a 100A breaker that feeds this panel.
I added the circuits noted - 2 x 220V and 1 x 110V. For the 110v, I
wired white to the neutral bar (where the other 110v white wires were
connected, the bare ground to the bare ground bar, and the black to
the breaker. For the 220v circuits, bare ground to bare ground bar,
white to one screw on the breaker, and black to the other screw.
These are square D panel/breakers. Nothing fancy, all basic
components.
Note my last post -- the detected problems are resolved, but the
concern is I still have an open ground somewhere, else the previous
problem would have trippped a breaker.
If there is an open ground you really need to fix it. If receptacles on
multiple circuits had "funny indications" I would suspect missing
ground-neutral connection at the panel if it is a service panel. Else it
might also be a defective ground on that circuit If it is a sub-panel
maybe a defective ground in the feed. If it is a sub-panel in a
different building, how is it fed - only 3 overhead wires? I gave you a
ground test using a light bulb.

If it is a service panel
- the utility supply will come in through a meter to the panel
- there will be no disconnect between the utility connection and the
main breaker in the panel.

If it is a service panel and wired to the National Electrical Code it
will have
- a heavy wire connected from neutral/ground bus to grounding
electrode(s); in older installations the water service pipe; in newer
installations an additional electrode, commonly a ground rod.
- and a jumper between the neutral bus and the enclosure.

If it is not a service panel, but is fed from a different building there
are options.

If there is a jumper between the neutral bus and enclosure, as I wrote
in a different post, it is commonly a screw from the neutral bus to the
enclosure. The SquareD panels I have seen it is an ordinary looking
round or pan head screw about 10-32. Sometimes they are colored green.
If it is not there, there should be an empty hole in the neutral bus.
The bonding screw is not obvious at all.

If this is a separate building, like a garage, it probably needs to be
wired similar to a service. (I have seen electricians argue about the
relevant code sections.) You have not provided enough information

You may want to call an electrician.

For your 220V circuits, if you are using Romex or other cable, the
"white" wire should have been covered with tape to make it a different
color than white or green. It should have been re-colored wherever the
wire appears. (If using fished wires, white shouldn't have been used.)


The service comes down to the pole into a box. That box has a 100A
breaker that runs to the shop, and a 200A breaker that runs to the
house. The pole to shop is about 200 yards and there are 3 large
wires.

The meter and service are at the pole. The house and shop are subpanels.

The shop and house panels could have hot-hot-neutral-ground feeds and be
wired with a separate ground bar and no N-G bond. Grounding electrode(s)
required (also required in the other method).

Your description is hot-hot-neutral feed. The shop and house panels are
wired the same as a service panel. Neutral-ground bond required (neutral
and ground bars are effectively the same).
[This method is not allowed in the 2008 NEC for new installations. Seems
like what you have is common and safe.]

With a separate ground bar I suspect your panel doesn't have a
neutral-ground bond. If missing it could be a mistake or a local wiring
practice or inspection authority quirk. IMHO it is not safe. The NEC
does not allow the earth to be used as a return. That is because the
earth does not provide an effective return. The need for a metal (not
earth) path for ground fault current back to the transformer is not
understood as well as it should be.

--
bud--

On Jan 7, 10:46*am, bud-- wrote:
coloradotrout wrote:
On Jan 5, 12:26 pm, bud-- wrote:
coloradotrout wrote:

Any receptacle that gave a "funny" indication had a bad ground. It could
be a circuit or the whole panel.
Not only are some outlets not grounded, if a failure at one outlet makes
that ground "hot" many other outlet grounds are "hot". Real bad condition.
To test the ground, connect a light bulb from hot to ground. If the bulb
does not light the ground is open. The bulb should light at full brightness.
Makes be wonder if
the box has a good earth ground or not.
It is not an earth ground problem.
The "ground" wires return to the service. At that point there is a
connection between the "grounds" and the incoming service neutral. (This
is typically a screw from the neutral bus to the enclosure.) On a fault,
like yours, the ground wires go back to the service panel, connect to
the service neutral, and go to the power transformer. That gives a high
current path that will trip a circuit breaker. This is a main function
of "ground" wires, and will happen without an earth connection.
Connection of "ground" (and neutral) wires to the earth keeps a low
potential with respect to the earth. If the "ground wire"-neutral bond
at the service is missing, there will be some return through the
earthing electrode, through the earth, to the earthing electrode at the
transformer. If you had a quite good resistance to earth of 10 ohms,
your fault (120V to earth) would produce a current of 12 amps - not
likely to trip a 15A breaker - there would be a significant delay even
if the breaker was fully loaded.
Bud,
So I should look in my panel and see that the neutral is grounded to
the box?
I thought I recall seeing 3 large wires coming into the box - hot,
hot, and neutral. *The box itself then has a ground bar and two
neutral bars ( I think). *I do not recall seeing any neutral to box
connection.
Suspect the OP does not understand wiring sufficiently and/or has made
basic error in wiring.
Also is this being wired from the main panel of the house or pony
panel? There is mention of "three wires coming into the panel"! And no
connection between neutral and ground; so it's a sub panel?
Also we are talking 230 volt outlets; not what are sometimes called
Edison outlets or here sometimes called 'split outlets'?????
Split outlets (allow you to plug in more load). Namely when the
connection between the upper and lower parts of a duplex is
deliberately broken by removing that link on the hot side of the
duplex and a common neutral is used, the upper half uses one 115 volt
leg (say red) and the other half uses the other leg (say black). Thus
effectively two separate outlets on the same 230 volt common neutral
circuit breaker.
And who is to say the pony (if indeed it is that) is wired correctly?
Very confusing; but sounds like it would take less than an hour to
sort out!-
I'm not wiring expert, but the panel was already in-place. *From the
pole there is a 100A breaker that feeds this panel.
I added the circuits noted - 2 x 220V and 1 x 110V. *For the 110v, I
wired white to the neutral bar (where the other 110v white wires were
connected, the bare ground to the bare ground bar, and the black to
the breaker. *For the 220v circuits, bare ground to bare ground bar,
white to one screw on the breaker, and black to the other screw.
These are square D panel/breakers. *Nothing fancy, all basic
components.
Note my last post -- the detected problems are resolved, but the
concern is I still have an open ground somewhere, else the previous
problem would have trippped a breaker.
If there is an open ground you really need to fix it. If receptacles on
multiple circuits had "funny indications" I would suspect missing
ground-neutral connection at the panel if it is a service panel. Else it
might also be a defective ground on that circuit *If it is a sub-panel
maybe a defective ground in the feed. If it is a sub-panel in a
different building, how is it fed - only 3 overhead wires? I gave you a
ground test using a light bulb.

If it is a service panel
- the utility supply will come in through a meter to the panel
- there will be no disconnect between the utility connection and the
main breaker in the panel.

If it is a service panel and wired to the National Electrical Code it
will have
- a heavy wire connected from neutral/ground bus to grounding
electrode(s); *in older installations the water service pipe; in newer
installations an additional electrode, commonly a ground rod.
- and a jumper between the neutral bus and the enclosure.

If it is not a service panel, but is fed from a different building there
are options.

If there is a jumper between the neutral bus and enclosure, as I wrote
in a different post, it is commonly a screw from the neutral bus to the
enclosure. The SquareD panels I have seen it is an ordinary looking
round or pan head screw about 10-32. Sometimes they are colored green.
If it is not there, there should be an empty hole in the neutral bus.
The bonding screw is not obvious at all.

If this is a separate building, like a garage, it probably needs to be
wired similar to a service. (I have seen electricians argue about the
relevant code sections.) You have not provided enough information

You may want to call an electrician.

For your 220V circuits, if you are using Romex *or other cable, the
"white" wire should have been covered with tape to make it a different
color than white or green. It should have been re-colored wherever the
wire appears. (If using fished wires, white shouldn't have been used.)

The service comes down to the pole into a box. *That box has a 100A
breaker that runs to the shop, and a 200A breaker that runs to the
house. *The pole to shop is about 200 yards and there are 3 large
wires.

The meter and service are at the pole. The house and shop are subpanels.

The shop and house panels could have hot-hot-neutral-ground feeds and be
wired with a separate ground bar and no N-G bond. Grounding electrode(s)
required (also required in the other method).

Your description is hot-hot-neutral feed. The shop and house panels are
wired the same as a service panel. Neutral-ground bond required (neutral
and ground bars are effectively the same).
[This method is not allowed in the 2008 NEC for new installations. Seems
like what you have is common and safe.]

With a separate ground bar I suspect your panel doesn't have a
neutral-ground bond. If missing it could be a mistake or a local wiring
practice or inspection authority quirk. IMHO it is not safe. The NEC
does not allow the earth to be used as a return. That is because the
earth does not provide an effective return. The need for a metal (not
earth) path for ground fault current back to the transformer is not
understood as well as it should be.

--
bud--- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Bud -- thanks for all the info! You a a bit over my head, but I'll
try to figure this out.

I'm looking into my shop panel now:

There a 3 large wires - 4 ga. aluminum - coming up from the bottom
(from the pole). One goes to the left and is fixed to the neutral
bar, the other two go to the bars where the breakers attach (one on
the left side, the other to the right).

The neutral bar has a place to afix white wires on both the left side
and the right side (the panel hardware attaches the right bar to the
left bar, so neutral whites could be brought in to either side -- in
my case all are on the left side where the big wire from the poles is
also.)

There is a ground bar attached to the grey metal box.

All circuits coming in connect bare ground to the ground bar, 110v
whites to the neutral bar, 110v blacks to the breaker, and black and
white wires to the 220v breakers.

From what I see, ground is not tied to the neutral in any way.

The ground bar has a larger wire running out the bottom of the box
(but not with the 3 other large wires) and I see that wire ouside the
shop going into the ground.

I don't quite understand your discussion about the ground and neutral
being connected in the box.

Resorting to my old analog multitester (bec. the battery in the cheap
digital one is dead...)
breaker bar L to neu bar - 120v
breaker bar R to neu bar - 120v
breaker bar L to breaker bar R - 240v
breaker bar L to grd - 120v
breaker bar R to grd - 120v
neu bar to grd - 1v (a trace of voltage, but not 0)
resistance between grd and neu - 20 ohms (that's 2-0, and not K, etc,
I was on the meter 1x setting)

On Jan 7, 11:29*am, coloradotrout wrote:
On Jan 7, 10:46*am, bud-- wrote:





coloradotrout wrote:
On Jan 5, 12:26 pm, bud-- wrote:
coloradotrout wrote:

Any receptacle that gave a "funny" indication had a bad ground. It could
be a circuit or the whole panel.
Not only are some outlets not grounded, if a failure at one outlet makes
that ground "hot" many other outlet grounds are "hot". Real bad condition.
To test the ground, connect a light bulb from hot to ground. If the bulb
does not light the ground is open. The bulb should light at full brightness.
Makes be wonder if
the box has a good earth ground or not.
It is not an earth ground problem.
The "ground" wires return to the service. At that point there is a
connection between the "grounds" and the incoming service neutral. (This
is typically a screw from the neutral bus to the enclosure.) On a fault,
like yours, the ground wires go back to the service panel, connect to
the service neutral, and go to the power transformer. That gives a high
current path that will trip a circuit breaker. This is a main function
of "ground" wires, and will happen without an earth connection.
Connection of "ground" (and neutral) wires to the earth keeps a low
potential with respect to the earth. If the "ground wire"-neutral bond
at the service is missing, there will be some return through the
earthing electrode, through the earth, to the earthing electrode at the
transformer. If you had a quite good resistance to earth of 10 ohms,
your fault (120V to earth) would produce a current of 12 amps - not
likely to trip a 15A breaker - there would be a significant delay even
if the breaker was fully loaded.
Bud,
So I should look in my panel and see that the neutral is grounded to
the box?
I thought I recall seeing 3 large wires coming into the box - hot,
hot, and neutral. *The box itself then has a ground bar and two
neutral bars ( I think). *I do not recall seeing any neutral to box
connection.
Suspect the OP does not understand wiring sufficiently and/or has made
basic error in wiring.
Also is this being wired from the main panel of the house or pony
panel? There is mention of "three wires coming into the panel"! And no
connection between neutral and ground; so it's a sub panel?
Also we are talking 230 volt outlets; not what are sometimes called
Edison outlets or here sometimes called 'split outlets'?????
Split outlets (allow you to plug in more load). Namely when the
connection between the upper and lower parts of a duplex is
deliberately broken by removing that link on the hot side of the
duplex and a common neutral is used, the upper half uses one 115 volt
leg (say red) and the other half uses the other leg (say black). Thus
effectively two separate outlets on the same 230 volt common neutral
circuit breaker.
And who is to say the pony (if indeed it is that) is wired correctly?
Very confusing; but sounds like it would take less than an hour to
sort out!-
I'm not wiring expert, but the panel was already in-place. *From the
pole there is a 100A breaker that feeds this panel.
I added the circuits noted - 2 x 220V and 1 x 110V. *For the 110v, I
wired white to the neutral bar (where the other 110v white wires were
connected, the bare ground to the bare ground bar, and the black to
the breaker. *For the 220v circuits, bare ground to bare ground bar,
white to one screw on the breaker, and black to the other screw.
These are square D panel/breakers. *Nothing fancy, all basic
components.
Note my last post -- the detected problems are resolved, but the
concern is I still have an open ground somewhere, else the previous
problem would have trippped a breaker.
If there is an open ground you really need to fix it. If receptacles on
multiple circuits had "funny indications" I would suspect missing
ground-neutral connection at the panel if it is a service panel. Else it
might also be a defective ground on that circuit *If it is a sub-panel
maybe a defective ground in the feed. If it is a sub-panel in a
different building, how is it fed - only 3 overhead wires? I gave you a
ground test using a light bulb.

If it is a service panel
- the utility supply will come in through a meter to the panel
- there will be no disconnect between the utility connection and the
main breaker in the panel.

If it is a service panel and wired to the National Electrical Code it
will have
- a heavy wire connected from neutral/ground bus to grounding
electrode(s); *in older installations the water service pipe; in newer
installations an additional electrode, commonly a ground rod.
- and a jumper between the neutral bus and the enclosure.

If it is not a service panel, but is fed from a different building there
are options.

If there is a jumper between the neutral bus and enclosure, as I wrote
in a different post, it is commonly a screw from the neutral bus to the
enclosure. The SquareD panels I have seen it is an ordinary looking
round or pan head screw about 10-32. Sometimes they are colored green.

coloradotrout wrote:
On Jan 7, 11:29 am, coloradotrout wrote:
On Jan 7, 10:46 am, bud-- wrote:
coloradotrout wrote:
On Jan 5, 12:26 pm, bud-- wrote:
coloradotrout wrote:
Any receptacle that gave a "funny" indication had a bad ground. It could
be a circuit or the whole panel.
Not only are some outlets not grounded, if a failure at one outlet makes
that ground "hot" many other outlet grounds are "hot". Real bad condition.
To test the ground, connect a light bulb from hot to ground. If the bulb
does not light the ground is open. The bulb should light at full brightness.
Makes be wonder if
the box has a good earth ground or not.
It is not an earth ground problem.
The "ground" wires return to the service. At that point there is a
connection between the "grounds" and the incoming service neutral. (This
is typically a screw from the neutral bus to the enclosure.) On a fault,
like yours, the ground wires go back to the service panel, connect to
the service neutral, and go to the power transformer. That gives a high
current path that will trip a circuit breaker. This is a main function
of "ground" wires, and will happen without an earth connection.
Connection of "ground" (and neutral) wires to the earth keeps a low
potential with respect to the earth. If the "ground wire"-neutral bond
at the service is missing, there will be some return through the
earthing electrode, through the earth, to the earthing electrode at the
transformer. If you had a quite good resistance to earth of 10 ohms,
your fault (120V to earth) would produce a current of 12 amps - not
likely to trip a 15A breaker - there would be a significant delay even
if the breaker was fully loaded.
Bud,
So I should look in my panel and see that the neutral is grounded to
the box?
I thought I recall seeing 3 large wires coming into the box - hot,
hot, and neutral. The box itself then has a ground bar and two
neutral bars ( I think). I do not recall seeing any neutral to box
connection.
Suspect the OP does not understand wiring sufficiently and/or has made
basic error in wiring.
Also is this being wired from the main panel of the house or pony
panel? There is mention of "three wires coming into the panel"! And no
connection between neutral and ground; so it's a sub panel?
Also we are talking 230 volt outlets; not what are sometimes called
Edison outlets or here sometimes called 'split outlets'?????
Split outlets (allow you to plug in more load). Namely when the
connection between the upper and lower parts of a duplex is
deliberately broken by removing that link on the hot side of the
duplex and a common neutral is used, the upper half uses one 115 volt
leg (say red) and the other half uses the other leg (say black). Thus
effectively two separate outlets on the same 230 volt common neutral
circuit breaker.
And who is to say the pony (if indeed it is that) is wired correctly?
Very confusing; but sounds like it would take less than an hour to
sort out!-
I'm not wiring expert, but the panel was already in-place. From the
pole there is a 100A breaker that feeds this panel.
I added the circuits noted - 2 x 220V and 1 x 110V. For the 110v, I
wired white to the neutral bar (where the other 110v white wires were
connected, the bare ground to the bare ground bar, and the black to
the breaker. For the 220v circuits, bare ground to bare ground bar,
white to one screw on the breaker, and black to the other screw.
These are square D panel/breakers. Nothing fancy, all basic
components.
Note my last post -- the detected problems are resolved, but the
concern is I still have an open ground somewhere, else the previous
problem would have trippped a breaker.
If there is an open ground you really need to fix it. If receptacles on
multiple circuits had "funny indications" I would suspect missing
ground-neutral connection at the panel if it is a service panel. Else it
might also be a defective ground on that circuit If it is a sub-panel
maybe a defective ground in the feed. If it is a sub-panel in a
different building, how is it fed - only 3 overhead wires? I gave you a
ground test using a light bulb.
If it is a service panel
- the utility supply will come in through a meter to the panel
- there will be no disconnect between the utility connection and the
main breaker in the panel.
If it is a service panel and wired to the National Electrical Code it
will have
- a heavy wire connected from neutral/ground bus to grounding
electrode(s); in older installations the water service pipe; in newer
installations an additional electrode, commonly a ground rod.
- and a jumper between the neutral bus and the enclosure.
If it is not a service panel, but is fed from a different building there
are options.
If there is a jumper between the neutral bus and enclosure, as I wrote
in a different post, it is commonly a screw from the neutral bus to the
enclosure. The SquareD panels I have seen it is an ordinary looking
round or pan head screw about 10-32. Sometimes they are colored green.
If it is not there, there should be an empty hole in the neutral bus.
The bonding screw is not obvious at all.
If this is a separate building, like a garage, it probably needs to be
wired similar to a service. (I have seen electricians argue about the
relevant code sections.) You have not provided enough information
You may want to call an electrician.
For your 220V circuits, if you are using Romex or other cable, the
"white" wire should have been covered with tape to make it a different
color than white or green. It should have been re-colored wherever the
wire appears. (If using fished wires, white shouldn't have been used.)
The service comes down to the pole into a box. That box has a 100A
breaker that runs to the shop, and a 200A breaker that runs to the
house. The pole to shop is about 200 yards and there are 3 large
wires.
The meter and service are at the pole. The house and shop are subpanels.
The shop and house panels could have hot-hot-neutral-ground feeds and be
wired with a separate ground bar and no N-G bond. Grounding electrode(s)
required (also required in the other method).
Your description is hot-hot-neutral feed. The shop and house panels are
wired the same as a service panel. Neutral-ground bond required (neutral
and ground bars are effectively the same).
[This method is not allowed in the 2008 NEC for new installations. Seems
like what you have is common and safe.]
With a separate ground bar I suspect your panel doesn't have a
neutral-ground bond. If missing it could be a mistake or a local wiring
practice or inspection authority quirk. IMHO it is not safe. The NEC
does not allow the earth to be used as a return. That is because the
earth does not provide an effective return. The need for a metal (not
earth) path for ground fault current back to the transformer is not
understood as well as it should be.


Resorting to my old analog multitester (bec. the battery in the cheap
digital one is dead...)
breaker bar L to neu bar - 120v
breaker bar R to neu bar - 120v
breaker bar L to breaker bar R - 240v
breaker bar L to grd - 120v
breaker bar R to grd - 120v
neu bar to grd - 1v (a trace of voltage, but not 0)
resistance between grd and neu - 20 ohms (that's 2-0, and not K, etc,
I was on the meter 1x setting)- H
..
The voltage of interest is N-G.
If there is voltage from N-G you can't measure the resistance. 20 ohms
could be a reasonable measurement if the shop subpanel has no N-G bond
and the path is through the earth.
..
Bud --

I did some reading tonight in some 'code' book at Lowes. I now see
what you mean by neu-to-grn "bond". There is suppose to be this
"bond" in the service panel, and then any sub panels should be fed by
4 wires - hot1, hot2, neutral, ground.
..
That is true for a subpanel in the same building.

It is one way to wire subpanels in a *different* building.
..

But my shop panel is fed by 3 wires - hot1, hot2, neutral. There is
only an earth ground in the panel.
..
That was a second way of powering a *different* building. But the NEC
then requires a N-G bonding jumper. Without the jumper there is no metal
path back to the transformer, and a short-to-ground will not reliably
cause a breaker to trip (and can make the "grounds" hot).
..
I guess I should go pull the cover off the panel on the pole (which
feeds the shop on a 100A breaker and the house on a 200A breaker).

What should the pole panel look like?
..
Who cares.
..
What should my shop panel look like? (given it has 3 wires from pole
panel)?
..
You still don't know where the grounding problem is. From what I
remember it could possibly be one circuit (but probably not).

Connect a light bulb, 100W or larger would be nice, from a hot to
ground. Is the light fully bright? What is the voltage between the
neutral and ground bus? Note all the grounds in the building, including
the panel, may be "hot" when you do this.
If you actually have 20 ohms N-G, a100W light bulb might give you about
15V from N-G. I would expect well under a volt if there is a N-G bond.


As I said a couple times, the N-G bond is often a screw that looks like
it could just be a mounting screw for the neutral bus. Recent ones are
probably green. If not installed there will be an empty hole in the
neutral bus.
..
What should my house panel look like? ( I need to look at it also)
..
If the shop panel does not have the N-G bond I would certainly check the
house (or check it anyway).

You may want to call an electrician.

(There is a minute possibility local practice is to not add the N-G
bond. That would be very unwise.)

--
bud--