"[WISCONSIN] But his home could cost him thousands of dollars in fines.
Borntreger, an Amish farmer, built the house himself according to Amish
tradition - but without a building permit."

Money quote:

"The government must show a strong reason why regulations outweigh religious
freedoms, he said. Building officials argue permits and codes ensure
structural safety, but Amish homes aren't falling down..."

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20081213/D951NEGG0.html

On Dec 13, 1:53*pm, "HeyBub" wrote:
"[WISCONSIN] But his home could cost him thousands of dollars in fines.
Borntreger, an Amish farmer, built the house himself according to Amish
tradition - but without a building permit."

Money quote:

"The government must show a strong reason why regulations outweigh religious
freedoms, he said. Building officials argue permits and codes ensure
structural safety, but Amish homes aren't falling down..."

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20081213/D951NEGG0.html

It's pretty much a guarantee that the Amish homes are better built
than your typical code box.

R

On Dec 15, 10:09*am, RicodJour wrote:
On Dec 13, 1:53*pm, "HeyBub" wrote:

"[WISCONSIN] But his home could cost him thousands of dollars in fines.
Borntreger, an Amish farmer, built the house himself according to Amish
tradition - but without a building permit."

Money quote:

"The government must show a strong reason why regulations outweigh religious
freedoms, he said. Building officials argue permits and codes ensure
structural safety, but Amish homes aren't falling down..."

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20081213/D951NEGG0.html

It's pretty much a guarantee that the Amish homes are better built
than your typical code box.

R

"Better" is subjective. You likely have balloon construction, no
smoke detectors, little insulation, etc. Structurally they are
probably great, but they don't have a lot of the things that are
common.

Pat wrote:
....
It's pretty much a guarantee that the Amish homes are better built
than your typical code box.

R

"Better" is subjective. You likely have balloon construction, no
smoke detectors, little insulation, etc. Structurally they are
probably great, but they don't have a lot of the things that are
common.

I'd certainly not make that assertion other than certain electrical
appurtenances, etc., and certainly wouldn't think them "worse" for the
lack thereof.

--

Claude Hopper wrote:
....

\Of course, no electricity, no plumbing. Separate out house for crapping.

Again, _far_ too general a generalization...

--

Pat wrote:
On Dec 15, 10:09 am, RicodJour wrote:
On Dec 13, 1:53 pm, "HeyBub" wrote:

"[WISCONSIN] But his home could cost him thousands of dollars in fines.
Borntreger, an Amish farmer, built the house himself according to Amish
tradition - but without a building permit."
Money quote:
"The government must show a strong reason why regulations outweigh religious
freedoms, he said. Building officials argue permits and codes ensure
structural safety, but Amish homes aren't falling down..."
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20081213/D951NEGG0.html
It's pretty much a guarantee that the Amish homes are better built
than your typical code box.

R

"Better" is subjective. You likely have balloon construction, no
smoke detectors, little insulation, etc. Structurally they are
probably great, but they don't have a lot of the things that are
common.


Like electrical outlets every 12 feet.

Bob

Pat wrote:

It's pretty much a guarantee that the Amish homes are better built
than your typical code box.

R

"Better" is subjective. You likely have balloon construction, no
smoke detectors, little insulation, etc. Structurally they are
probably great, but they don't have a lot of the things that are
common.

Yeah, but no Amish home has ever been blown down by a hurricane...

On Dec 13, 1:53*pm, "HeyBub" wrote:
"[WISCONSIN] But his home could cost him thousands of dollars in fines.
Borntreger, an Amish farmer, built the house himself according to Amish
tradition - but without a building permit."

Money quote:

"The government must show a strong reason why regulations outweigh religious
freedoms, he said. Building officials argue permits and codes ensure
structural safety, but Amish homes aren't falling down..."

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20081213/D951NEGG0.html

You still need a permit.

On Mon, 15 Dec 2008 15:54:21 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Dec 13, 1:53*pm, "HeyBub" wrote:
"[WISCONSIN] But his home could cost him thousands of dollars in fines.
Borntreger, an Amish farmer, built the house himself according to Amish
tradition - but without a building permit."

Money quote:

"The government must show a strong reason why regulations outweigh religious
freedoms, he said. Building officials argue permits and codes ensure
structural safety, but Amish homes aren't falling down..."

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20081213/D951NEGG0.html

You still need a permit.

Not according to the Amish!

See Money quote above.

Oren wrote:

On Mon, 15 Dec 2008 15:54:21 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:



On Dec 13, 1:53 pm, "HeyBub" wrote:


"[WISCONSIN] But his home could cost him thousands of dollars in fines.
Borntreger, an Amish farmer, built the house himself according to Amish
tradition - but without a building permit."

Money quote:

"The government must show a strong reason why regulations outweigh religious
freedoms, he said. Building officials argue permits and codes ensure
structural safety, but Amish homes aren't falling down..."

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20081213/D951NEGG0.html


You still need a permit.



Not according to the Amish!

See Money quote above.


There are very different "Amish" beliefs and practices; some use modern
conveniences like electricity
and automobiles. If the code enforcement folks allowed deviation on
account of religious beliefs, it
would probably be discrimination. Don't like the laws? Change 'em or
leave.

On Mon, 15 Dec 2008 19:40:27 -0500, Norminn
wrote:

Oren wrote:

On Mon, 15 Dec 2008 15:54:21 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:



On Dec 13, 1:53 pm, "HeyBub" wrote:


"[WISCONSIN] But his home could cost him thousands of dollars in fines.
Borntreger, an Amish farmer, built the house himself according to Amish
tradition - but without a building permit."

Money quote:

"The government must show a strong reason why regulations outweigh religious
freedoms, he said. Building officials argue permits and codes ensure
structural safety, but Amish homes aren't falling down..."

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20081213/D951NEGG0.html


You still need a permit.



Not according to the Amish!

See Money quote above.


There are very different "Amish" beliefs and practices; some use modern
conveniences like electricity
and automobiles. If the code enforcement folks allowed deviation on
account of religious beliefs, it
would probably be discrimination. Don't like the laws? Change 'em or
leave.

They don't practice law, but will allow others to represent them.

The code officers cannot affront the religious freedoms. That will be
settled in a federal court.

No need for them to move. Voodoo practitioners still live in Miami.

From the link of OP:

"They should be allowed to practice their religion and their religious
traditions without interference from the government," he said in an
interview.

The Becket Fund for Religious Liberty, which has taken up the Amish's
cause in Hammond, plans to file a federal lawsuit in New York in the
next few weeks arguing that."

On Mon 15 Dec 2008 05:00:42p, RobertPatrick told us...

Has anyone seen the TV ad for Amish fireplaces run on electricity?
They show some "Amish" men in the commercial.
What a dumb ad.


According to the commercial, the Amish are only building the wood
housing/mantle. The elecric "fireplace" unit is being included, but not
promoted by the Amish.

--
Wayne Boatwright
(correct the spelling of "geemail" to reply)
************************************************** **********************
Date: Monday, 12(XII)/15(XV)/08(MMVIII)
************************************************** **********************
Today is: Bill of Rights Day
Countdown till Christmas Day
1wks 2dys 5hrs 35mins
************************************************** **********************
Positive: Mistaken at the top of one's voice.
************************************************** **********************

On Tue, 16 Dec 2008 01:26:34 GMT, Wayne Boatwright
wrote:

On Mon 15 Dec 2008 05:00:42p, RobertPatrick told us...

Has anyone seen the TV ad for Amish fireplaces run on electricity?
They show some "Amish" men in the commercial.
What a dumb ad.


According to the commercial, the Amish are only building the wood
housing/mantle. The elecric "fireplace" unit is being included, but not
promoted by the Amish.

Look close and the fireplace is low BTU... more cosmetic look and not
for real heat source.

wrote:
On Dec 13, 1:53 pm, "HeyBub" wrote:
"[WISCONSIN] But his home could cost him thousands of dollars in
fines. Borntreger, an Amish farmer, built the house himself
according to Amish tradition - but without a building permit."

Money quote:

"The government must show a strong reason why regulations outweigh
religious freedoms, he said. Building officials argue permits and
codes ensure structural safety, but Amish homes aren't falling
down..."

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20081213/D951NEGG0.html

You still need a permit.

I don't think it's the permit itself, but that you have to "swear" to
various things (as in notary witnessing).

Interestingly, the law may require you to provide architectural drawings,
but there's no law mandating you be able to read.

Norminn wrote:
Oren wrote:

On Mon, 15 Dec 2008 15:54:21 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:



On Dec 13, 1:53 pm, "HeyBub" wrote:

"[WISCONSIN] But his home could cost him thousands of dollars in fines.
Borntreger, an Amish farmer, built the house himself according to Amish
tradition - but without a building permit."

Money quote:

"The government must show a strong reason why regulations outweigh
religious
freedoms, he said. Building officials argue permits and codes ensure
structural safety, but Amish homes aren't falling down..."

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20081213/D951NEGG0.html

You still need a permit.


Not according to the Amish!

See Money quote above.


There are very different "Amish" beliefs and practices; some use modern
conveniences like electricity
and automobiles. If the code enforcement folks allowed deviation on
account of religious beliefs, it
would probably be discrimination. Don't like the laws? Change 'em or
leave.


I'm not an expert on such things, but I believe you are confusing the
Amish with the Mennonites.

Bob

"Claude Hopper" wrote in message

\Of course, no electricity, no plumbing. Separate out house for crapping.

Bad generalization. Some have electricity, at least for their power tools,
table saws, etc. They are not tied to the grid, but they can use
generators. Propane powered refrigerators too. Oh, did I mention
composting toilets or incinerator toilets?

On Mon, 15 Dec 2008 20:27:52 -0600, "HeyBub"
wrote:

wrote:
On Dec 13, 1:53 pm, "HeyBub" wrote:
"[WISCONSIN] But his home could cost him thousands of dollars in
fines. Borntreger, an Amish farmer, built the house himself
according to Amish tradition - but without a building permit."

Money quote:

"The government must show a strong reason why regulations outweigh
religious freedoms, he said. Building officials argue permits and
codes ensure structural safety, but Amish homes aren't falling
down..."

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20081213/D951NEGG0.html

You still need a permit.

I don't think it's the permit itself, but that you have to "swear" to
various things (as in notary witnessing).


That's it. Don't sign the permit.

Signing it is a swear!

Interestingly, the law may require you to provide architectural drawings,
but there's no law mandating you be able to read.


Not a single law. one day I can get a HSD/GED g

On Mon, 15 Dec 2008 20:51:14 -0600, zxcvbob
wrote:

Norminn wrote:
Oren wrote:

On Mon, 15 Dec 2008 15:54:21 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:



On Dec 13, 1:53 pm, "HeyBub" wrote:

"[WISCONSIN] But his home could cost him thousands of dollars in fines.
Borntreger, an Amish farmer, built the house himself according to Amish
tradition - but without a building permit."

Money quote:

"The government must show a strong reason why regulations outweigh
religious
freedoms, he said. Building officials argue permits and codes ensure
structural safety, but Amish homes aren't falling down..."

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20081213/D951NEGG0.html

You still need a permit.


Not according to the Amish!

See Money quote above.


There are very different "Amish" beliefs and practices; some use modern
conveniences like electricity
and automobiles. If the code enforcement folks allowed deviation on
account of religious beliefs, it
would probably be discrimination. Don't like the laws? Change 'em or
leave.


I'm not an expert on such things, but I believe you are confusing the
Amish with the Mennonites.

Bob
Actually a fine line between them, and some of the more "progressive"
amish use more technology than some of the more "conservative"
mennonites..

Likely more difference between different Amish group and between
different mennonite groups than between the old order amish and the
old order mennonites.

amish near pittsburgh have fax machines in their barns for business,
but arent permitted in homes.

same for using computers

On Mon, 15 Dec 2008 19:43:08 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

amish near pittsburgh have fax machines in their barns for business,
but arent permitted in homes.

same for using computers

Some Amish girls in central PA experience sexual abuse for years, but
it's not allowed.

I think they should have cell phones; at least!

On Dec 15, 9:43*pm, " wrote:
amish near pittsburgh have fax machines in their barns for business,
but arent permitted in homes.


Nor are some fundamentalist sects allowed to use motorized farm
implements. But taking the motors off them and pulling it with a team
of horses is perfectly ok. Sounds like the horses have union
representation.

kc

On Dec 16, 2:15�pm, KC wrote:
On Dec 15, 9:43�pm, " wrote:

amish near pittsburgh have fax machines in their barns for business,
but arent permitted in homes.

Nor are some fundamentalist sects allowed to use motorized farm
implements. �But taking the motors off them and pulling it with a team
of horses is perfectly ok. �Sounds like the horses have union
representation.

kc

would a amish home where they want no electric have to meet code for
service entrance size, spacing of outlets etc?

On Dec 13, 12:53*pm, "HeyBub" wrote:
"[WISCONSIN] But his home could cost him thousands of dollars in fines.
Borntreger, an Amish farmer, built the house himself according to Amish
tradition - but without a building permit."

Money quote:

"The government must show a strong reason why regulations outweigh religious
freedoms, he said. Building officials argue permits and codes ensure
structural safety, but Amish homes aren't falling down..."

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20081213/D951NEGG0.html

The Mennonite builders I have seen in nearby Indiana here followed all
local codes, used the latest materials, followed codes, etc. The
problem was usually that the local codes allowed less desireable
things like cinder-block foundations instead of poured foundations,
2x8 ceiling joists instead of 2x10, no minimum brick-face
requirements, not enough architectural detail, etc. Making those
neighborhoods kind of blah looking after they were completed, but the
homes themselves were as competent for the price as they could be by
any builder.

The Amish seem to be more into pre-fab structure selling like gazebos,
sheds, etc. and less into stick building homes and development. More
what they can do in-shop then just assemble on site. Whereas the
Mennonites are very much into modest home development, very plain,
modest, frame homes.

On Tue, 16 Dec 2008 17:27:58 -0500, Claude Hopper
wrote:

Oren wrote:
On Mon, 15 Dec 2008 15:54:21 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Dec 13, 1:53 pm, "HeyBub" wrote:
"[WISCONSIN] But his home could cost him thousands of dollars in fines.
Borntreger, an Amish farmer, built the house himself according to Amish
tradition - but without a building permit."

Money quote:

"The government must show a strong reason why regulations outweigh religious
freedoms, he said. Building officials argue permits and codes ensure
structural safety, but Amish homes aren't falling down..."

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20081213/D951NEGG0.html
You still need a permit.

Not according to the Amish!

See Money quote above.

Who can override God's permit?

United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit??!

Just asking! ...

On Tue, 16 Dec 2008 17:27:58 -0500, Claude Hopper
wrote:

Oren wrote:
On Mon, 15 Dec 2008 15:54:21 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Dec 13, 1:53 pm, "HeyBub" wrote:
"[WISCONSIN] But his home could cost him thousands of dollars in fines.
Borntreger, an Amish farmer, built the house himself according to Amish
tradition - but without a building permit."

Money quote:

"The government must show a strong reason why regulations outweigh religious
freedoms, he said. Building officials argue permits and codes ensure
structural safety, but Amish homes aren't falling down..."

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20081213/D951NEGG0.html
You still need a permit.

Not according to the Amish!

See Money quote above.

Who can override God's permit?

God ignores permits, building codes, "common sense", and reason. He
makes a mess of things.