Mold problem
Right, I live in North Texas (DFW area) in a house that was built in
1983. Today my wife noticed some black spots on a kitchen cabinet shelf. Upon further investigation, the deepest, most unreachable part of those shelves were black with mold. Since these shelves are right next to the dishwasher, I next looked under the dishwasher and my worst fears were true. There must be a slow or small leak somewhere in the dishwasher plumbing, since there was a lake of water under there. This water never seeped onto the floor, since the tiles on the floor seem to form a small barrier that allows the water to spread under the cupboards, but there never was enough water to complete fill that hollow and spread over onto the floor. So now I have several questions. Can spraying bleach cure this or am I looking at replacing (at best) the shelves that seem to be some form of particle board or 9at worst) the entire set of kitchen cabinets? How the heck do I get the dishwasher out of there and how do I look under the dishwasher to find the leaking plumbing? All my tugging on the dishwasher doesn't seem to move it and I'm afraid I might twist or break something (nothing feels very strong) if I pull too hard. For those familiar with the mold issues a few years back here in North Texas, I guess I'm SOL as far as my insurance picking up a part of the tab? I'll call my agent tomorrow, but I thought I'd ask here in case someone has some experience. Thanks |
Mold problem
MikeB wrote:
Right, I live in North Texas (DFW area) in a house that was built in 1983. Today my wife noticed some black spots on a kitchen cabinet shelf. Upon further investigation, the deepest, most unreachable part of those shelves were black with mold. Since these shelves are right next to the dishwasher, I next looked under the dishwasher and my worst fears were true. There must be a slow or small leak somewhere in the dishwasher plumbing, since there was a lake of water under there. This water never seeped onto the floor, since the tiles on the floor seem to form a small barrier that allows the water to spread under the cupboards, but there never was enough water to complete fill that hollow and spread over onto the floor. So now I have several questions. Can spraying bleach cure this or am I looking at replacing (at best) the shelves that seem to be some form of particle board or 9at worst) the entire set of kitchen cabinets? How the heck do I get the dishwasher out of there and how do I look under the dishwasher to find the leaking plumbing? All my tugging on the dishwasher doesn't seem to move it and I'm afraid I might twist or break something (nothing feels very strong) if I pull too hard. For those familiar with the mold issues a few years back here in North Texas, I guess I'm SOL as far as my insurance picking up a part of the tab? I'll call my agent tomorrow, but I thought I'd ask here in case someone has some experience. Unplug the power (or turn off the breaker). Disconnect the drain hose under the sink and drain it into a pot. Remove the screws that hold the dishwasher to the bottom of the countertop. Look for brackets at the top of the opening. If you have a solid-surface counter, the brackets may be at the sides. Remove the kickplate at the bottom of the dishwasher. Behind it you'll find the electrical and water connections. There should be enough slack to gently pull the dishwasher out of the opening. Since you have a tile floor, you *may* have trouble getting it out. I wish you luck there. Suck up all the water with a wet vac. Get back in all the corners. Put a fan on the opening to dry out the floor. Let it run for a couple of days. Since water got under adjacent cabinets, they need to dry too. Unload the cabinets and leave the doors open. Give it a couple of weeks to dry. Bleach is probably good to kill the mildew, but I'm not a remediation specialist. Look for detailed instructions on the web or at your library. If you want a pro to do the job, let me know and I can refer you to an excellent contractor. The last time I did this, the infestation was slight, and I used a mildew sealer from the big box store instead of bleach. It was supposed to kill the nasties and leave a film to seal them in. Wear gloves, long sleeves, face mask, etc. Obligatory story: You should have seen the stuff in New Orleans. I inspected an old church that had been flooded, and it was awful. Our youth group went down to do the demolition. If they can do it, anybody can. Then the district decided to combine the church with another congregation, since there were only 19 elderly members. Thanks anyway, kids. -- Steve Bell New Life Home Improvement Arlington, TX |
Mold problem
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Mold problem
SteveBell wrote:
MikeB wrote: Right, I live in North Texas (DFW area) in a house that was built in 1983. Today my wife noticed some black spots on a kitchen cabinet shelf. Upon further investigation, the deepest, most unreachable part of those shelves were black with mold. Since these shelves are right next to the dishwasher, I next looked under the dishwasher and my worst fears were true. There must be a slow or small leak somewhere in the dishwasher plumbing, since there was a lake of water under there. This water never seeped onto the floor, since the tiles on the floor seem to form a small barrier that allows the water to spread under the cupboards, but there never was enough water to complete fill that hollow and spread over onto the floor. So now I have several questions. Can spraying bleach cure this or am I looking at replacing (at best) the shelves that seem to be some form of particle board or 9at worst) the entire set of kitchen cabinets? My guess is that you have mold under and behind the cabinets that you haven't seen yet. Bleach alone is not effective. It will in all likelihood kill the mold on the surface, but there will be viable spores left in the wood. There are much better biocides available. Look at the links below. http://www.zinsser.com/product_detail.asp?ProductID=149 http://www.zinsser.com/product_detail.asp?ProductID=149 It's been a while since I lived in Dallas, but I'd expect that good hardware stores like Elliott's or Turner's in Carrollton would have these or could get them for you. I'd dry the area out and keep it dry. I had similar problems in Dallas and chose to not resort to heroic measures like replacing cabinets, etc. If you keep it dry it will be dormant. If someone is truly impacted by the mold you may want to do more, but fungus of some sort will exist no matter what you do. If you start cutting wood or removing cabinets that are contaminated with mold wear a respirator with a good HEPA filter, a mask alone is not sufficient. I made that mistake and ended up with a fungus infection in my lungs...not fun. I had a termite infestation that provided a place for aspergillous niger to thrive, until they found my lungs. How the heck do I get the dishwasher out of there and how do I look under the dishwasher to find the leaking plumbing? All my tugging on the dishwasher doesn't seem to move it and I'm afraid I might twist or break something (nothing feels very strong) if I pull too hard. Frequently there are tabs at the top front of the dishwasher that are screwed to the underside of the counter to keep it from falling forward when opened. Open the door and look up under the counter, or with granite counters look at each side of the dishwasher at the top. If the vertical fit is tight and someone tiled in front of the dishwasher you have a big problem. You may be able to screw the height adjusting feet up a bit to get some clearance. I've just replaced both of the dishwashers in our home and found them to be so different that I'd suggest you try to locate the installation instructions for yours. Many of them are on the manufacturer's web site, both of mine were. For those familiar with the mold issues a few years back here in North Texas, I guess I'm SOL as far as my insurance picking up a part of the tab? I'll call my agent tomorrow, but I thought I'd ask here in case someone has some experience. Mold remediation as I recall has been excluded, however fixing the plumbing leak shouldn't be. If this requires removing tiles you may still want to re-read your policy, I think that portion of this exercise is covered. Good luck. |
Mold problem
OK, I got the dishwasher out and it's not a pretty sight, not as bad
as it might have been, but not pretty. I took some pictures and posted them he http://mpbrede.googlepages.com/moldpictures Hopefully this will give you guys a chance to form a better opinion of what I should be doing. I had a repairman come out for the dishwasher and he says it is the motor/pump assembly ($250 on the Kitchenaid. Add in labor and tax and he's quoting $362). From what I read, the mold is essentially there and will yield spores ad infinitum. Since it is wood, it is not easy (possible?) to seal the surfaces adequately, if my understanding is correct. I will look into the biocides, but my wife is very concerned that she will have polluted cabinets afterwards and she doesn't want to store cookware and other kitchen utensils there if there is a chance of contamination. SteveBell, can you please contact me with the referral you offered? My email address on this post is good. Thanks for the advice, please keep it coming. |
Mold problem
On Sep 8, 12:11*pm, MikeB wrote:
OK, I got the dishwasher out and it's not a pretty sight, not as bad as it might have been, but not pretty. I took some pictures and posted them hehttp://mpbrede.googlepages.com/moldpictures Hopefully this will give you guys a chance to form a better opinion of what I should be doing. I had a repairman come out for the dishwasher and he says it is the motor/pump assembly ($250 on the Kitchenaid. Add in labor and tax and he's quoting $362). From what I read, the mold is essentially there and will yield spores ad infinitum. Since it is wood, it is not easy (possible?) to seal the surfaces adequately, if my understanding is correct. I will look into the biocides, but my wife is very concerned that she will have polluted cabinets afterwards and she doesn't want to store cookware and other kitchen utensils there if there is a chance of contamination. SteveBell, can you please contact me with the referral you offered? My email address on this post is good. Thanks for the advice, please keep it coming. MikeB, I'm dealing with the exact same issue this morning. I've got blowers rented from Sunbelt drying things out now. So, I have a vested interest. If you come to a solution via means other than this forum, I would be very grateful if you would share it with me. I'd tell my story, but it seems more in the same (your pictures sum up my cabinets too.). Thanks everyone! |
Mold problem
MikeB wrote:
Right, I live in North Texas (DFW area) in a house that was built in 1983. Today my wife noticed some black spots on a kitchen cabinet shelf. Upon further investigation, the deepest, most unreachable part of those shelves were black with mold. Since these shelves are right next to the dishwasher, I next looked under the dishwasher and my worst fears were true. There must be a slow or small leak somewhere in the dishwasher plumbing, since there was a lake of water under there. This water never seeped onto the floor, since the tiles on the floor seem to form a small barrier that allows the water to spread under the cupboards, but there never was enough water to complete fill that hollow and spread over onto the floor. So now I have several questions. Can spraying bleach cure this or am I looking at replacing (at best) the shelves that seem to be some form of particle board or 9at worst) the entire set of kitchen cabinets? How the heck do I get the dishwasher out of there and how do I look under the dishwasher to find the leaking plumbing? All my tugging on the dishwasher doesn't seem to move it and I'm afraid I might twist or break something (nothing feels very strong) if I pull too hard. For those familiar with the mold issues a few years back here in North Texas, I guess I'm SOL as far as my insurance picking up a part of the tab? I'll call my agent tomorrow, but I thought I'd ask here in case someone has some experience. Thanks Relax! Mold/mildew isn't a new animal about to take over the world. Your shelves will probably be fine if cleaned with household detergent with a little bleach - let them air out and dry before putting stuff back. I assume they have some sort of finish on them. I have had puddles under my dishwasher three times, none of them related directly to the dw plumbing. First time, the repair guy said there was buildup of dw detergent that caused suds that kept the dw from draining properly , so it ran over. Cu dump in a quart of white vinegar and run through a full cycle. I was skeptical but it worked. Second time, I had forgotten all about the first problem, but it turned out to be different - the dw had moved slightly so that the door hit the edge of the cabinet ever so slightly and didn't shut entirely. Third time, water heater in corner of kitchen (on slab, inside corner cabinet) was leaking slowly, water ran over and puddled under the dw. I may write a book about "plumbing events" in my condo - certainly gets interesting sometimes. As for mildew, any home in Florida without sufficient AC will grow mildew somewhere. Spores are everywhere, and they are supposed to be everywhere, so don't think you can wipe them out. Clean, dry and well ventillated are key. My hubby and I nudge the thermostat back and forth constantly, he to 80, me to 78. Not much diff, but at 80 the salt hardens and the saltshakers rust, leather grows grey fuzz and elastic rots. |
Mold problem
On Sep 8, 12:11*pm, MikeB wrote:
OK, I got the dishwasher out and it's not a pretty sight, not as bad as it might have been, but not pretty. I took some pictures and posted them hehttp://mpbrede.googlepages.com/moldpictures Hopefully this will give you guys a chance to form a better opinion of what I should be doing. I had a repairman come out for the dishwasher and he says it is the motor/pump assembly ($250 on the Kitchenaid. Add in labor and tax and he's quoting $362). From what I read, the mold is essentially there and will yield spores ad infinitum. Since it is wood, it is not easy (possible?) to seal the surfaces adequately, if my understanding is correct. I will look into the biocides, but my wife is very concerned that she will have polluted cabinets afterwards and she doesn't want to store cookware and other kitchen utensils there if there is a chance of contamination. SteveBell, can you please contact me with the referral you offered? My email address on this post is good. Thanks for the advice, please keep it coming. Check you home owner's insurance policy. You may be covered for the problem. Letting the pro's come in and do the job will be cheaper and easier than DIY if it is covered. I had a friend who bought a house that had a pipe bust in the cold. There was mold in places you would never think of and not near the leak. It was a big job but the insurance paid for it all. |
Mold problem
"Boden" wrote in message
MikeB wrote: Today my wife noticed some black spots on a kitchen cabinet shelf. Upon further investigation, the deepest, most unreachable part of those shelves were black with mold. Since these shelves are right next to the dishwasher, I next looked under the dishwasher and my worst fears were true. There must be a slow or small leak somewhere in the Can spraying bleach cure this or am I looking at replacing (at best) the shelves that seem to be some form of particle board or 9at worst) the entire set of kitchen cabinets? My guess is that you have mold under and behind the cabinets that you haven't seen yet. Excellent reply Boden. I'll add to this one. Bleach alone is not effective. It will in all likelihood kill the mold on the surface, but there will be viable spores left in the wood. There are much better biocides available. Look at the links below. http://www.zinsser.com/product_detail.asp?ProductID=149 http://www.zinsser.com/product_detail.asp?ProductID=149 Correct. MikeB, google for professional mold killers. Thats one of many. Many can be bought online as well. Be very VERY sure to wear the right 'personal protective equipment' with these chemicals and keep all pets well away (and toddlers etc). Any wood that has rotted, will have to come out if soft and flakey. You may however be able to avoid a complete cabinet replacement. What's damaged would be the back portions, not the 'front which shows' so if you are handy or can contract it right, those back parts can be replaced in the damaged area if needed which will allow you to not have to remove upper cabinets due to not being able to match the old pattern. I'd dry the area out and keep it dry. I had similar problems in Dallas and chose to not resort to heroic measures like replacing cabinets, etc. If you keep it dry it will be dormant. If someone is truly impacted by the mold you may want to do more, but fungus of some sort will exist no matter what you do. This is true, also the 'good professional stuff' goes a very long way to really killing the spores deep. Proper mask made for chemical vapors (and if mold sensitive, mold as well) is needed. Non-vented safety glasses tight to face when spraying and shower after. Long rubber gloves and long sleeves (I actually wear two layers of coveralls with the sleeves tucked into the gloves). If you start cutting wood or removing cabinets that are contaminated with mold wear a respirator with a good HEPA filter, a mask alone is not sufficient. I made that mistake and ended up with a fungus infection in my lungs...not fun. I had a termite infestation that provided a place for aspergillous niger to thrive, until they found my lungs. Ouch. Thats exactly the beastie I had to kill. Fan shaped stuff. I'll have to backtack for the name of the chemical used. Just a big warning to wear the right safety gear and wear it *correctly*. One other note for MikeB, you can not just dispose of the wood or other infected parts 'anywhich way'. Illegal almost everywhere. You'll probably need a building permit for this one and that will allow access to the safe dumping zones for such infested items. There's mold and then there is Aspergillis niger.... |
Mold problem
cshenk wrote:
"Boden" wrote in message MikeB wrote: Today my wife noticed some black spots on a kitchen cabinet shelf. Upon further investigation, the deepest, most unreachable part of those shelves were black with mold. Since these shelves are right next to the dishwasher, I next looked under the dishwasher and my worst fears were true. There must be a slow or small leak somewhere in the Can spraying bleach cure this or am I looking at replacing (at best) the shelves that seem to be some form of particle board or 9at worst) the entire set of kitchen cabinets? My guess is that you have mold under and behind the cabinets that you haven't seen yet. Excellent reply Boden. I'll add to this one. .......and in every breath you take? Mold spores flit around everywhere. Bleach alone is not effective. It will in all likelihood kill the mold on the surface, but there will be viable spores left in the wood. There are much better biocides available. Look at the links below. http://www.zinsser.com/product_detail.asp?ProductID=149 http://www.zinsser.com/product_detail.asp?ProductID=149 Biocides? You use them every time you shower? Correct. MikeB, google for professional mold killers. Thats one of many. Many can be bought online as well. Be very VERY sure to wear the right 'personal protective equipment' with these chemicals and keep all pets well away (and toddlers etc). If the wood is rotted, it should be replaced. If not, clean it, dry it, paint it. Effectively shielded from them spores. Any wood that has rotted, will have to come out if soft and flakey. You may however be able to avoid a complete cabinet replacement. What's damaged would be the back portions, not the 'front which shows' so if you are handy or can contract it right, those back parts can be replaced in the damaged area if needed which will allow you to not have to remove upper cabinets due to not being able to match the old pattern. I'd dry the area out and keep it dry. I had similar problems in Dallas and chose to not resort to heroic measures like replacing cabinets, etc. If you keep it dry it will be dormant. If someone is truly impacted by the mold you may want to do more, but fungus of some sort will exist no matter what you do. This is true, also the 'good professional stuff' goes a very long way to really killing the spores deep. Proper mask made for chemical vapors (and if mold sensitive, mold as well) is needed. Non-vented safety glasses tight to face when spraying and shower after. Long rubber gloves and long sleeves (I actually wear two layers of coveralls with the sleeves tucked into the gloves). If you start cutting wood or removing cabinets that are contaminated with mold wear a respirator with a good HEPA filter, a mask alone is not sufficient. I made that mistake and ended up with a fungus infection in my lungs...not fun. I had a termite infestation that provided a place for aspergillous niger to thrive, until they found my lungs. Just out of curiosity, who cultured the termite nest to find the a.n.? It grows just about anywhere there is decomposing vegetation. Ouch. Thats exactly the beastie I had to kill. Fan shaped stuff. I'll have to backtack for the name of the chemical used. Just a big warning to wear the right safety gear and wear it *correctly*. One other note for MikeB, you can not just dispose of the wood or other infected parts 'anywhich way'. Illegal almost everywhere. You'll probably need a building permit for this one and that will allow access to the safe dumping zones for such infested items. There's mold and then there is Aspergillis niger.... Aspergillus niger is used in food production! Here is a good article, just to reduce panic of the masses, that explains a.n. well: http://www.epa.gov/biotech_rule/pubs/fra/fra006.htm It is not a disease producing organism unless one's immune system is compromised. In that case, mold, mildew and lots of other nasty stuff become threats. Good old drinking water isn't sterile, nor is the bar of soap by the sink, the doorknobs you touch daily, the cutting board on the kitchen counter....... |
Mold problem
Next chapter in my saga of mold in the kitchen.
Spoke to a few people regarding this. One company (forgot the name of which, but very professional) told me they could not come out until a licensed consultant had reviewed the mold. They then gave me a name and number to call. There I spoke to a very friendly and helpful guy who told me that I had the grand old state of Texas to thank for this. Apparently back in 2001, a rash of mold-related problems caused massive issues with the insurance companies, since people would rip out huge parts of their houses (or condemn entire houses) based on the presence of black mold. So in 2005 the great state of Texas passed a law that says that only "licensed contractors" could work of mold infestations greater than 25 sq ft. Unlicensed contractors could work on smaller infestations. However, a licensed contractor cannot work on a mold infestation until such a time as it has been assessed by a licensed consultant to correctly asses the damage and repair required. To get the consultant to come out is in excess of $570. For them to write the 8-page assessment is extra. So I've had an unlicensed contractor come out. This guy had lots of proposals, and the one that I finally got a quote for was to put some fan in the kitchen, cover if with a plastic tent and drill small holes and pipe air under the cabinets to ventilate that area for 3-4 days. Then he would replace the wood that was easily reachable (but not the wood that was hard (impossible?) to reach, for the princely sum of $735. Right now I have some cleaning equipment (smae make as recommended earlier in this thread), some surface primer and a mask from Lowes for $20. I guess we'll ask the dishwasher man to come back the day after tomorrow, not tomorrow, to give my treatment a chance to dry. |
Mold problem
"Norminn" wrote
cshenk wrote: Upon further investigation, the deepest, most unreachable part of those shelves were black with mold. Since these shelves are right next Excellent reply Boden. I'll add to this one. ......and in every breath you take? Mold spores flit around everywhere. Sure, and no house is totally mold free as we all know. Some types make for higher health hazards than others. I regret I didnt google the pictures. I had that and Stachybotrys Chartarum plus 'fan shaped black stuff'. It was the back room. Bleach alone is not effective. It will in all likelihood kill the mold on the surface, but there will be viable spores left in the wood. There are much better biocides available. Look at the links below. http://www.zinsser.com/product_detail.asp?ProductID=149 http://www.zinsser.com/product_detail.asp?ProductID=149 Biocides? You use them every time you shower? There is mold and there are other kinds. Correct. MikeB, google for professional mold killers. Thats one of many. Many can be bought online as well. Be very VERY sure to wear the right 'personal protective equipment' with these chemicals and keep all pets well away (and toddlers etc). If the wood is rotted, it should be replaced. If not, clean it, dry it, paint it. Effectively shielded from them spores. May work very well with most types. Wont work for all. |
Mold problem
MikeB wrote:
OK, I got the dishwasher out and it's not a pretty sight, not as bad as it might have been, but not pretty. I took some pictures and posted them he http://mpbrede.googlepages.com/moldpictures Hopefully this will give you guys a chance to form a better opinion of what I should be doing. I had a repairman come out for the dishwasher and he says it is the motor/pump assembly ($250 on the Kitchenaid. Add in labor and tax and he's quoting $362). For that kind of price, get a new dishwasher. My rule is: If the repair price (of any broken thing) is half the price of replacement, get a new thing. For computer equipment, the break point is one third. From what I read, the mold is essentially there and will yield spores ad infinitum. Since it is wood, it is not easy (possible?) to seal the surfaces adequately, if my understanding is correct. I will look into the biocides, but my wife is very concerned that she will have polluted cabinets afterwards and she doesn't want to store cookware and other kitchen utensils there if there is a chance of contamination. SteveBell, can you please contact me with the referral you offered? My email address on this post is good. I sent you the contact information by e-mail. -- Steve Bell New Life Home Improvement Arlington, TX |
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