Right, I live in North Texas (DFW area) in a house that was built in
1983.

Today my wife noticed some black spots on a kitchen cabinet shelf.
Upon further investigation, the deepest, most unreachable part of
those shelves were black with mold. Since these shelves are right next
to the dishwasher, I next looked under the dishwasher and my worst
fears were true. There must be a slow or small leak somewhere in the
dishwasher plumbing, since there was a lake of water under there. This
water never seeped onto the floor, since the tiles on the floor seem
to form a small barrier that allows the water to spread under the
cupboards, but there never was enough water to complete fill that
hollow and spread over onto the floor.

So now I have several questions.

Can spraying bleach cure this or am I looking at replacing (at best)
the shelves that seem to be some form of particle board or 9at worst)
the entire set of kitchen cabinets?

How the heck do I get the dishwasher out of there and how do I look
under the dishwasher to find the leaking plumbing? All my tugging on
the dishwasher doesn't seem to move it and I'm afraid I might twist or
break something (nothing feels very strong) if I pull too hard.

For those familiar with the mold issues a few years back here in North
Texas, I guess I'm SOL as far as my insurance picking up a part of the
tab? I'll call my agent tomorrow, but I thought I'd ask here in case
someone has some experience.

Thanks

MikeB wrote:

Right, I live in North Texas (DFW area) in a house that was built in
1983.

Today my wife noticed some black spots on a kitchen cabinet shelf.
Upon further investigation, the deepest, most unreachable part of
those shelves were black with mold. Since these shelves are right next
to the dishwasher, I next looked under the dishwasher and my worst
fears were true. There must be a slow or small leak somewhere in the
dishwasher plumbing, since there was a lake of water under there. This
water never seeped onto the floor, since the tiles on the floor seem
to form a small barrier that allows the water to spread under the
cupboards, but there never was enough water to complete fill that
hollow and spread over onto the floor.

So now I have several questions.

Can spraying bleach cure this or am I looking at replacing (at best)
the shelves that seem to be some form of particle board or 9at worst)
the entire set of kitchen cabinets?

How the heck do I get the dishwasher out of there and how do I look
under the dishwasher to find the leaking plumbing? All my tugging on
the dishwasher doesn't seem to move it and I'm afraid I might twist or
break something (nothing feels very strong) if I pull too hard.

For those familiar with the mold issues a few years back here in North
Texas, I guess I'm SOL as far as my insurance picking up a part of the
tab? I'll call my agent tomorrow, but I thought I'd ask here in case
someone has some experience.

Unplug the power (or turn off the breaker).

Disconnect the drain hose under the sink and drain it into a pot.

Remove the screws that hold the dishwasher to the bottom of the
countertop. Look for brackets at the top of the opening. If you have a
solid-surface counter, the brackets may be at the sides.

Remove the kickplate at the bottom of the dishwasher. Behind it you'll
find the electrical and water connections. There should be enough slack
to gently pull the dishwasher out of the opening. Since you have a tile
floor, you *may* have trouble getting it out. I wish you luck there.

Suck up all the water with a wet vac. Get back in all the corners.

Put a fan on the opening to dry out the floor. Let it run for a couple
of days.

Since water got under adjacent cabinets, they need to dry too. Unload
the cabinets and leave the doors open. Give it a couple of weeks to dry.

Bleach is probably good to kill the mildew, but I'm not a remediation
specialist. Look for detailed instructions on the web or at your
library. If you want a pro to do the job, let me know and I can refer
you to an excellent contractor.

The last time I did this, the infestation was slight, and I used a
mildew sealer from the big box store instead of bleach. It was supposed
to kill the nasties and leave a film to seal them in.

Wear gloves, long sleeves, face mask, etc.

Obligatory story: You should have seen the stuff in New Orleans. I
inspected an old church that had been flooded, and it was awful. Our
youth group went down to do the demolition. If they can do it, anybody
can. Then the district decided to combine the church with another
congregation, since there were only 19 elderly members. Thanks anyway,
kids.

--
Steve Bell
New Life Home Improvement
Arlington, TX

MikeB wrote in news:574f6845-102f-4e6b-a086-
:

Right, I live in North Texas (DFW area) in a house that was built in
1983.

Today my wife noticed some black spots on a kitchen cabinet shelf.
Upon further investigation, the deepest, most unreachable part of
those shelves were black with mold. Since these shelves are right next
to the dishwasher, I next looked under the dishwasher and my worst
fears were true. There must be a slow or small leak somewhere in the
dishwasher plumbing, since there was a lake of water under there. This
water never seeped onto the floor, since the tiles on the floor seem
to form a small barrier that allows the water to spread under the
cupboards, but there never was enough water to complete fill that
hollow and spread over onto the floor.

So now I have several questions.

Can spraying bleach cure this or am I looking at replacing (at best)
the shelves that seem to be some form of particle board or 9at worst)
the entire set of kitchen cabinets?

How the heck do I get the dishwasher out of there and how do I look
under the dishwasher to find the leaking plumbing? All my tugging on
the dishwasher doesn't seem to move it and I'm afraid I might twist or
break something (nothing feels very strong) if I pull too hard.

There should be a metal kickplate at the very bottom of the DW held by
screws. Remove the screws and the kickplate will come off. You can view
many things from there. Maybe enough not to have to remove the DW.

Removal. Open the door to the dishwasher. Look on the underside of the
countertop. There may be two metal tabs that are screwed into the
underside of the countertop. This MAY be all that is holding it.

Some DWs are also screwed into the sides of the cabinet rails. Open the
DW door and look for screws at the very front that point towards the
front edge of the cabinets next to the DW.

You may have to lower the leveling legs of the DW to slide it out. Remove
the kickplate. The base of the adjustable legs (two or four of them)
should be hex shaped so you can put a pair of pliers or large wrench on
it to turn. Looking DOWN at the floor, you would turn them
counterclockwise to lower the DW.

To slide the DW totally out you have to disconnect the drain hose. You
MAY also have to disconnect the water inlet supply and/or electrical line
depending on how long each is. Probably count on doing this.


For those familiar with the mold issues a few years back here in North
Texas, I guess I'm SOL as far as my insurance picking up a part of the
tab? I'll call my agent tomorrow, but I thought I'd ask here in case
someone has some experience.

Thanks

SteveBell wrote:
MikeB wrote:


Right, I live in North Texas (DFW area) in a house that was built in
1983.

Today my wife noticed some black spots on a kitchen cabinet shelf.
Upon further investigation, the deepest, most unreachable part of
those shelves were black with mold. Since these shelves are right next
to the dishwasher, I next looked under the dishwasher and my worst
fears were true. There must be a slow or small leak somewhere in the
dishwasher plumbing, since there was a lake of water under there. This
water never seeped onto the floor, since the tiles on the floor seem
to form a small barrier that allows the water to spread under the
cupboards, but there never was enough water to complete fill that
hollow and spread over onto the floor.

So now I have several questions.

Can spraying bleach cure this or am I looking at replacing (at best)
the shelves that seem to be some form of particle board or 9at worst)
the entire set of kitchen cabinets?

My guess is that you have mold under and behind the cabinets that you
haven't seen yet.

Bleach alone is not effective. It will in all likelihood kill the mold
on the surface, but there will be viable spores left in the wood. There
are much better biocides available. Look at the links below.

http://www.zinsser.com/product_detail.asp?ProductID=149
http://www.zinsser.com/product_detail.asp?ProductID=149

It's been a while since I lived in Dallas, but I'd expect that good
hardware stores like Elliott's or Turner's in Carrollton would have
these or could get them for you.

I'd dry the area out and keep it dry. I had similar problems in Dallas
and chose to not resort to heroic measures like replacing cabinets, etc.
If you keep it dry it will be dormant. If someone is truly impacted
by the mold you may want to do more, but fungus of some sort will exist
no matter what you do.

If you start cutting wood or removing cabinets that are contaminated
with mold wear a respirator with a good HEPA filter, a mask alone is not
sufficient. I made that mistake and ended up with a fungus infection
in my lungs...not fun. I had a termite infestation that provided a
place for aspergillous niger to thrive, until they found my lungs.


How the heck do I get the dishwasher out of there and how do I look
under the dishwasher to find the leaking plumbing? All my tugging on
the dishwasher doesn't seem to move it and I'm afraid I might twist or
break something (nothing feels very strong) if I pull too hard.

Frequently there are tabs at the top front of the dishwasher that are
screwed to the underside of the counter to keep it from falling forward
when opened. Open the door and look up under the counter, or with
granite counters look at each side of the dishwasher at the top. If the
vertical fit is tight and someone tiled in front of the dishwasher you
have a big problem. You may be able to screw the height adjusting feet
up a bit to get some clearance. I've just replaced both of the
dishwashers in our home and found them to be so different that I'd
suggest you try to locate the installation instructions for yours. Many
of them are on the manufacturer's web site, both of mine were.


For those familiar with the mold issues a few years back here in North
Texas, I guess I'm SOL as far as my insurance picking up a part of the
tab? I'll call my agent tomorrow, but I thought I'd ask here in case
someone has some experience.

Mold remediation as I recall has been excluded, however fixing the
plumbing leak shouldn't be. If this requires removing tiles you may
still want to re-read your policy, I think that portion of this exercise
is covered.

Good luck.

OK, I got the dishwasher out and it's not a pretty sight, not as bad
as it might have been, but not pretty. I took some pictures and posted
them he http://mpbrede.googlepages.com/moldpictures

Hopefully this will give you guys a chance to form a better opinion of
what I should be doing.

I had a repairman come out for the dishwasher and he says it is the
motor/pump assembly ($250 on the Kitchenaid. Add in labor and tax and
he's quoting $362).

From what I read, the mold is essentially there and will yield spores
ad infinitum. Since it is wood, it is not easy (possible?) to seal the
surfaces adequately, if my understanding is correct. I will look into
the biocides, but my wife is very concerned that she will have
polluted cabinets afterwards and she doesn't want to store cookware
and other kitchen utensils there if there is a chance of
contamination.

SteveBell, can you please contact me with the referral you offered? My
email address on this post is good.

Thanks for the advice, please keep it coming.

On Sep 8, 12:11*pm, MikeB wrote:
OK, I got the dishwasher out and it's not a pretty sight, not as bad
as it might have been, but not pretty. I took some pictures and posted
them hehttp://mpbrede.googlepages.com/moldpictures

Hopefully this will give you guys a chance to form a better opinion of
what I should be doing.

I had a repairman come out for the dishwasher and he says it is the
motor/pump assembly ($250 on the Kitchenaid. Add in labor and tax and
he's quoting $362).

From what I read, the mold is essentially there and will yield spores
ad infinitum. Since it is wood, it is not easy (possible?) to seal the
surfaces adequately, if my understanding is correct. I will look into
the biocides, but my wife is very concerned that she will have
polluted cabinets afterwards and she doesn't want to store cookware
and other kitchen utensils there if there is a chance of
contamination.

SteveBell, can you please contact me with the referral you offered? My
email address on this post is good.

Thanks for the advice, please keep it coming.

MikeB,

I'm dealing with the exact same issue this morning. I've got blowers
rented from Sunbelt drying things out now. So, I have a vested
interest. If you come to a solution via means other than this forum, I
would be very grateful if you would share it with me. I'd tell my
story, but it seems more in the same (your pictures sum up my cabinets
too.). Thanks everyone!

MikeB wrote:

Right, I live in North Texas (DFW area) in a house that was built in
1983.

Today my wife noticed some black spots on a kitchen cabinet shelf.
Upon further investigation, the deepest, most unreachable part of
those shelves were black with mold. Since these shelves are right next
to the dishwasher, I next looked under the dishwasher and my worst
fears were true. There must be a slow or small leak somewhere in the
dishwasher plumbing, since there was a lake of water under there. This
water never seeped onto the floor, since the tiles on the floor seem
to form a small barrier that allows the water to spread under the
cupboards, but there never was enough water to complete fill that
hollow and spread over onto the floor.

So now I have several questions.

Can spraying bleach cure this or am I looking at replacing (at best)
the shelves that seem to be some form of particle board or 9at worst)
the entire set of kitchen cabinets?

How the heck do I get the dishwasher out of there and how do I look
under the dishwasher to find the leaking plumbing? All my tugging on
the dishwasher doesn't seem to move it and I'm afraid I might twist or
break something (nothing feels very strong) if I pull too hard.

For those familiar with the mold issues a few years back here in North
Texas, I guess I'm SOL as far as my insurance picking up a part of the
tab? I'll call my agent tomorrow, but I thought I'd ask here in case
someone has some experience.

Thanks


Relax! Mold/mildew isn't a new animal about to take over the world.
Your shelves will probably
be fine if cleaned with household detergent with a little bleach - let
them air out and dry before putting
stuff back. I assume they have some sort of finish on them.

I have had puddles under my dishwasher three times, none of them related
directly to the dw plumbing.
First time, the repair guy said there was buildup of dw detergent that
caused suds that kept the dw from
draining properly , so it ran over. Cu dump in a quart of white
vinegar and run through a full cycle. I
was skeptical but it worked.

Second time, I had forgotten all about the first problem, but it turned
out to be different - the dw had moved
slightly so that the door hit the edge of the cabinet ever so slightly
and didn't shut entirely.

Third time, water heater in corner of kitchen (on slab, inside corner
cabinet) was leaking slowly, water
ran over and puddled under the dw.

I may write a book about "plumbing events" in my condo - certainly gets
interesting sometimes.

As for mildew, any home in Florida without sufficient AC will grow
mildew somewhere. Spores are
everywhere, and they are supposed to be everywhere, so don't think you
can wipe them out. Clean, dry
and well ventillated are key. My hubby and I nudge the thermostat back
and forth constantly, he to 80, me to 78.
Not much diff, but at 80 the salt hardens and the saltshakers rust,
leather grows grey fuzz and elastic rots.

On Sep 8, 12:11*pm, MikeB wrote:
OK, I got the dishwasher out and it's not a pretty sight, not as bad
as it might have been, but not pretty. I took some pictures and posted
them hehttp://mpbrede.googlepages.com/moldpictures

Hopefully this will give you guys a chance to form a better opinion of
what I should be doing.

I had a repairman come out for the dishwasher and he says it is the
motor/pump assembly ($250 on the Kitchenaid. Add in labor and tax and
he's quoting $362).

From what I read, the mold is essentially there and will yield spores
ad infinitum. Since it is wood, it is not easy (possible?) to seal the
surfaces adequately, if my understanding is correct. I will look into
the biocides, but my wife is very concerned that she will have
polluted cabinets afterwards and she doesn't want to store cookware
and other kitchen utensils there if there is a chance of
contamination.

SteveBell, can you please contact me with the referral you offered? My
email address on this post is good.

Thanks for the advice, please keep it coming.

Check you home owner's insurance policy. You may be covered for
the problem. Letting the pro's come in and do the job will be cheaper
and easier than DIY if it is covered.

I had a friend who bought a house that had a pipe bust in the
cold. There was mold in places you would never think of and not near
the leak. It was a big job but the insurance paid for it all.

"Boden" wrote in message
MikeB wrote:

Today my wife noticed some black spots on a kitchen cabinet shelf.
Upon further investigation, the deepest, most unreachable part of
those shelves were black with mold. Since these shelves are right next
to the dishwasher, I next looked under the dishwasher and my worst
fears were true. There must be a slow or small leak somewhere in the

Can spraying bleach cure this or am I looking at replacing (at best)
the shelves that seem to be some form of particle board or 9at worst)
the entire set of kitchen cabinets?

My guess is that you have mold under and behind the cabinets that you
haven't seen yet.

Excellent reply Boden. I'll add to this one.

Bleach alone is not effective. It will in all likelihood kill the mold on
the surface, but there will be viable spores left in the wood. There are
much better biocides available. Look at the links below.

http://www.zinsser.com/product_detail.asp?ProductID=149
http://www.zinsser.com/product_detail.asp?ProductID=149

Correct. MikeB, google for professional mold killers. Thats one of many.
Many can be bought online as well.

Be very VERY sure to wear the right 'personal protective equipment' with
these chemicals and keep all pets well away (and toddlers etc).

Any wood that has rotted, will have to come out if soft and flakey. You may
however be able to avoid a complete cabinet replacement. What's damaged
would be the back portions, not the 'front which shows' so if you are handy
or can contract it right, those back parts can be replaced in the damaged
area if needed which will allow you to not have to remove upper cabinets due
to not being able to match the old pattern.

I'd dry the area out and keep it dry. I had similar problems in Dallas
and chose to not resort to heroic measures like replacing cabinets, etc.
If you keep it dry it will be dormant. If someone is truly impacted by the
mold you may want to do more, but fungus of some sort will exist no matter
what you do.

This is true, also the 'good professional stuff' goes a very long way to
really killing the spores deep. Proper mask made for chemical vapors (and
if mold sensitive, mold as well) is needed. Non-vented safety glasses tight
to face when spraying and shower after. Long rubber gloves and long sleeves
(I actually wear two layers of coveralls with the sleeves tucked into the
gloves).

If you start cutting wood or removing cabinets that are contaminated with
mold wear a respirator with a good HEPA filter, a mask alone is not
sufficient. I made that mistake and ended up with a fungus infection in
my lungs...not fun. I had a termite infestation that provided a place for
aspergillous niger to thrive, until they found my lungs.

Ouch. Thats exactly the beastie I had to kill. Fan shaped stuff. I'll
have to backtack for the name of the chemical used. Just a big warning to
wear the right safety gear and wear it *correctly*. One other note for
MikeB, you can not just dispose of the wood or other infected parts
'anywhich way'. Illegal almost everywhere. You'll probably need a building
permit for this one and that will allow access to the safe dumping zones for
such infested items. There's mold and then there is Aspergillis niger....

cshenk wrote:

"Boden" wrote in message


MikeB wrote:





Today my wife noticed some black spots on a kitchen cabinet shelf.
Upon further investigation, the deepest, most unreachable part of
those shelves were black with mold. Since these shelves are right next
to the dishwasher, I next looked under the dishwasher and my worst
fears were true. There must be a slow or small leak somewhere in the





Can spraying bleach cure this or am I looking at replacing (at best)
the shelves that seem to be some form of particle board or 9at worst)
the entire set of kitchen cabinets?


My guess is that you have mold under and behind the cabinets that you
haven't seen yet.



Excellent reply Boden. I'll add to this one.


.......and in every breath you take? Mold spores flit around everywhere.



Bleach alone is not effective. It will in all likelihood kill the mold on
the surface, but there will be viable spores left in the wood. There are
much better biocides available. Look at the links below.

http://www.zinsser.com/product_detail.asp?ProductID=149
http://www.zinsser.com/product_detail.asp?ProductID=149


Biocides? You use them every time you shower?


Correct. MikeB, google for professional mold killers. Thats one of many.
Many can be bought online as well.

Be very VERY sure to wear the right 'personal protective equipment' with
these chemicals and keep all pets well away (and toddlers etc).


If the wood is rotted, it should be replaced. If not, clean it, dry it,
paint it. Effectively shielded from
them spores.

Any wood that has rotted, will have to come out if soft and flakey. You may
however be able to avoid a complete cabinet replacement. What's damaged
would be the back portions, not the 'front which shows' so if you are handy
or can contract it right, those back parts can be replaced in the damaged
area if needed which will allow you to not have to remove upper cabinets due
to not being able to match the old pattern.



I'd dry the area out and keep it dry. I had similar problems in Dallas
and chose to not resort to heroic measures like replacing cabinets, etc.
If you keep it dry it will be dormant. If someone is truly impacted by the
mold you may want to do more, but fungus of some sort will exist no matter
what you do.



This is true, also the 'good professional stuff' goes a very long way to
really killing the spores deep. Proper mask made for chemical vapors (and
if mold sensitive, mold as well) is needed. Non-vented safety glasses tight
to face when spraying and shower after. Long rubber gloves and long sleeves
(I actually wear two layers of coveralls with the sleeves tucked into the
gloves).



If you start cutting wood or removing cabinets that are contaminated with
mold wear a respirator with a good HEPA filter, a mask alone is not
sufficient. I made that mistake and ended up with a fungus infection in
my lungs...not fun. I had a termite infestation that provided a place for
aspergillous niger to thrive, until they found my lungs.


Just out of curiosity, who cultured the termite nest to find the a.n.?
It grows just about anywhere there
is decomposing vegetation.


Ouch. Thats exactly the beastie I had to kill. Fan shaped stuff. I'll
have to backtack for the name of the chemical used. Just a big warning to
wear the right safety gear and wear it *correctly*. One other note for
MikeB, you can not just dispose of the wood or other infected parts
'anywhich way'. Illegal almost everywhere. You'll probably need a building
permit for this one and that will allow access to the safe dumping zones for
such infested items. There's mold and then there is Aspergillis niger....




Aspergillus niger is used in food production! Here is a good article,
just to reduce panic of the masses,
that explains a.n. well:
http://www.epa.gov/biotech_rule/pubs/fra/fra006.htm
It is not a disease producing organism unless one's immune system is
compromised. In that case, mold,
mildew and lots of other nasty stuff become threats. Good old drinking
water isn't sterile, nor is the bar of
soap by the sink, the doorknobs you touch daily, the cutting board on
the kitchen counter.......

Next chapter in my saga of mold in the kitchen.

Spoke to a few people regarding this. One company (forgot the name of
which, but very professional) told me they could not come out until a
licensed consultant had reviewed the mold. They then gave me a name
and number to call. There I spoke to a very friendly and helpful guy
who told me that I had the grand old state of Texas to thank for this.

Apparently back in 2001, a rash of mold-related problems caused
massive issues with the insurance companies, since people would rip
out huge parts of their houses (or condemn entire houses) based on the
presence of black mold. So in 2005 the great state of Texas passed a
law that says that only "licensed contractors" could work of mold
infestations greater than 25 sq ft. Unlicensed contractors could work
on smaller infestations. However, a licensed contractor cannot work on
a mold infestation until such a time as it has been assessed by a
licensed consultant to correctly asses the damage and repair required.

To get the consultant to come out is in excess of $570. For them to
write the 8-page assessment is extra.

So I've had an unlicensed contractor come out. This guy had lots of
proposals, and the one that I finally got a quote for was to put some
fan in the kitchen, cover if with a plastic tent and drill small
holes and pipe air under the cabinets to ventilate that area for 3-4
days. Then he would replace the wood that was easily reachable (but
not the wood that was hard (impossible?) to reach, for the princely
sum of $735.

Right now I have some cleaning equipment (smae make as recommended
earlier in this thread), some surface primer and a mask from Lowes for
$20.

I guess we'll ask the dishwasher man to come back the day after
tomorrow, not tomorrow, to give my treatment a chance to dry.

"Norminn" wrote
cshenk wrote:

Upon further investigation, the deepest, most unreachable part of
those shelves were black with mold. Since these shelves are right next
Excellent reply Boden. I'll add to this one.

......and in every breath you take? Mold spores flit around everywhere.

Sure, and no house is totally mold free as we all know. Some types make for
higher health hazards than others.

I regret I didnt google the pictures. I had that and Stachybotrys Chartarum
plus

'fan shaped black stuff'. It was the back room.

Bleach alone is not effective. It will in all likelihood kill the mold on
the surface, but there will be viable spores left in the wood. There are
much better biocides available. Look at the links below.

http://www.zinsser.com/product_detail.asp?ProductID=149
http://www.zinsser.com/product_detail.asp?ProductID=149

Biocides? You use them every time you shower?

There is mold and there are other kinds.

Correct. MikeB, google for professional mold killers. Thats one of many.
Many can be bought online as well.

Be very VERY sure to wear the right 'personal protective equipment' with
these chemicals and keep all pets well away (and toddlers etc).

If the wood is rotted, it should be replaced. If not, clean it, dry it,
paint it. Effectively shielded from
them spores.

May work very well with most types. Wont work for all.

MikeB wrote:

OK, I got the dishwasher out and it's not a pretty sight, not as bad
as it might have been, but not pretty. I took some pictures and posted
them he http://mpbrede.googlepages.com/moldpictures

Hopefully this will give you guys a chance to form a better opinion of
what I should be doing.

I had a repairman come out for the dishwasher and he says it is the
motor/pump assembly ($250 on the Kitchenaid. Add in labor and tax and
he's quoting $362).

For that kind of price, get a new dishwasher. My rule is: If the repair
price (of any broken thing) is half the price of replacement, get a new
thing. For computer equipment, the break point is one third.

From what I read, the mold is essentially there and will yield spores
ad infinitum. Since it is wood, it is not easy (possible?) to seal the
surfaces adequately, if my understanding is correct. I will look into
the biocides, but my wife is very concerned that she will have
polluted cabinets afterwards and she doesn't want to store cookware
and other kitchen utensils there if there is a chance of
contamination.

SteveBell, can you please contact me with the referral you offered? My
email address on this post is good.

I sent you the contact information by e-mail.

--
Steve Bell
New Life Home Improvement
Arlington, TX