Does this exist?
I want a switch/outlet combination, where if the switch is thrown one way
power goes only to the outlet, and when thrown the otherway it goes only
elsewhere.
It would be like a three-way switch combined with a single outlet.

It is for use on a 20a circuit, but there could never be more than 15a on
the circuit. (switched one way it powers a 13a waterheater, the other way a
single 15a outlet) Will a 15a switch be adequate, or must I have a 20a
switch?

On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 10:24:18 -0400, jack wrote:
Does this exist?
I want a switch/outlet combination, where if the switch is thrown one way
power goes only to the outlet, and when thrown the otherway it goes only
elsewhere.
It would be like a three-way switch combined with a single outlet.

It is for use on a 20a circuit, but there could never be more than 15a on
the circuit. (switched one way it powers a 13a waterheater, the other way a
single 15a outlet) Will a 15a switch be adequate, or must I have a 20a
switch?

You only need a 15A switch although there's no harm in a heavier duty one. It
is the weakest link that'll size the breaker. IE: if you have a 20A switch,
but 15A wiring and a 15A outlet, the breaker can be no larger than 15A.

On Aug 25, 7:24*am, "jack" wrote:
Does this exist?
I want a switch/outlet combination, where if the switch is thrown one way
power goes only to the outlet, and when thrown the otherway it goes only
elsewhere.
It would be like a three-way switch combined with a single outlet.

It is for use on a 20a circuit, but there could never be more than 15a on
the circuit. (switched one way it powers a 13a waterheater, the other way a
single 15a outlet) Will a 15a switch be adequate, or must I have a 20a
switch?

if the 20 amp circuit uses 12 awg *copper* wire, it will support a
20amp switch. a 15 amp switch, depending on how cheaply made it
is will have a fairly short life cycle running the 13amp water heater.


If the '20amp circuit' is using 14 gage copper wire it is illegal,
and potentially unsafe.. in that case replace the 20amp breaker with a
15amp breaker. or pull 12 gage copper wire.

You can use either a 20 amp or 15amp switch/recepticle on 12 gage
wire... the key issues are wire size big enough to carry the current
allowed by the panel circuit breaker.



additionally these electrical ratings have two aspects... the peak
rating and the continous load rating. For instance a 20amp rated
recepticle can carry 20 amps for brief intermittent loads but not more
than 15 or 16 amps continuous (I forgot the exact figure, its listed
on the box).

So that yer 15 amp switch on a 13 amp hot water heater is probably
half an amp over its continous load rating.... depends on the duty
cycle of the water heater if its considered a continous or
intermittent load. i would consider it continous since it is possible
someone could use hot water heavily resulting in long run times.


When powering motors or continous loads it is a good idea to purchase
the more expensive options of brand name components... you can get
away with the cheapest options on light duty, intermittent loads, such
as occasional lights etc.


(If you use aluminum wire it must be sized at least one wire gage size
larger to carry the same load as copper wire, see the relevant NEC
charts for that sizing and application, use anti oxidant grease on any
wire connections when using aluminum wire... not many people
recommend aluminum wire, its prone to corrosion.)








Phil scott

Does this exist?
I want a switch/outlet combination, where if the switch is thrown one
way power goes only to the outlet, and when thrown the otherway it
goes only elsewhere.
It would be like a three-way switch combined with a single outlet.

The switches themselves are common. Look at the switches used for
situations where more than one switch controls an outlet. But I don't
know about finding one with an outlet in the same form. I've never seen
that configuration. You'll probably end up having to use a 3 or 4-way
switch and a regular outlet in a ganged mounting box.

It is for use on a 20a circuit, but there could never be more than
15a on the circuit. (switched one way it powers a 13a waterheater,
the other way a single 15a outlet) Will a 15a switch be adequate, or
must I have a 20a switch?

Yes, that just barely fits within usage specs. Ideally the load should
be 80% of max and 13/15 = 0.866667 ; a tad over 0.800, but it should be
workable.
Technically, that number says you want 20A; it's borderline above 15A
for a constant current draw.
If as you seem to say it's on a 20 A breaker though, everything,
wire, outlet, switch must be rated for 20A.
If it's on a 15A breaker then 15A OR 20A components would be OK since
only 15A can flow. But plugging in a 20A product may pop the breaker.
I'd opt for 20A IF the wire size was compatible (eg 12 ga wires). If
it's 14 ga, then you're stuck with 15A or a rewire. 14 ga is normally
used for lighting ckts.
Assuming copper wire, not aluminum.

HTH

TWayne wrote:
Does this exist?
I want a switch/outlet combination, where if the switch is thrown one
way power goes only to the outlet, and when thrown the otherway it
goes only elsewhere.
It would be like a three-way switch combined with a single outlet.

I agree with others - add a circuit.

The switches themselves are common. Look at the switches used for
situations where more than one switch controls an outlet. But I don't
know about finding one with an outlet in the same form. I've never seen
that configuration. You'll probably end up having to use a 3 or 4-way
switch and a regular outlet in a ganged mounting box.

It is for use on a 20a circuit, but there could never be more than
15a on the circuit. (switched one way it powers a 13a waterheater,
the other way a single 15a outlet) Will a 15a switch be adequate, or
must I have a 20a switch?

Yes, that just barely fits within usage specs. Ideally the load should
be 80% of max and 13/15 = 0.866667 ; a tad over 0.800, but it should be
workable.
Technically, that number says you want 20A; it's borderline above 15A
for a constant current draw.

I agree 13A is just over what should be connected to a 15A switch. I
think a water heater would be a continuous load (over 3 hours).

If as you seem to say it's on a 20 A breaker though, everything,
wire, outlet, switch must be rated for 20A.

15A receptacles can be (and very often are) used on 20A circuits. The
restriction is if only one receptacle is connected it must be 20A (the
common duplex receptacle is 2 receptacles).

15A switches can be used on a 20A circuit. The switch must match the load.

If it's on a 15A breaker then 15A OR 20A components would be OK since
only 15A can flow. But plugging in a 20A product may pop the breaker.


A 20A receptacle on a 15A circuit is a code violation.

-----------------
You have a 120V water heater?

--
bud--

On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 11:49:56 -0500, bud-- wrote:

15A receptacles can be (and very often are) used on 20A circuits. The
restriction is if only one receptacle is connected it must be 20A (the
common duplex receptacle is 2 receptacles).

15A switches can be used on a 20A circuit. The switch must match the load.

You can never make assumptions about the load. You have to assume
that it is possible for some idiot to attach a 100A load. Or for the
load to short out and try to draw hundreds of amps. The breaker
must open before the weakest link blows. In your first scenario, the
outlet will burn up; in your second scenario the switch will blow.

Never ever use a breaker designed for a amperage greater than your
weakest link.

AZ Nomad wrote:
On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 11:49:56 -0500, bud-- wrote:

15A receptacles can be (and very often are) used on 20A circuits. The
restriction is if only one receptacle is connected it must be 20A (the
common duplex receptacle is 2 receptacles).

15A switches can be used on a 20A circuit. The switch must match the load.

You can never make assumptions about the load. You have to assume
that it is possible for some idiot to attach a 100A load. Or for the
load to short out and try to draw hundreds of amps. The breaker
must open before the weakest link blows. In your first scenario, the
outlet will burn up; in your second scenario the switch will blow.

Never ever use a breaker designed for a amperage greater than your
weakest link.

What I described has been code (and standard practice) for a long time.
There are probably far more 15A receptacles on 20A circuits than 20A
receptacles. You are welcome to suggest a code change. Be sure to
describe the dead bodies - helps a lot in getting your code change approved.

15A receptacles are essentially the same as 20A receptacle.

--
bud--

On Wed, 27 Aug 2008 11:59:21 -0500, bud-- wrote:
AZ Nomad wrote:
On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 11:49:56 -0500, bud-- wrote:

15A receptacles can be (and very often are) used on 20A circuits. The
restriction is if only one receptacle is connected it must be 20A (the
common duplex receptacle is 2 receptacles).

15A switches can be used on a 20A circuit. The switch must match the load.

You can never make assumptions about the load. You have to assume
that it is possible for some idiot to attach a 100A load. Or for the
load to short out and try to draw hundreds of amps. The breaker
must open before the weakest link blows. In your first scenario, the
outlet will burn up; in your second scenario the switch will blow.

Never ever use a breaker designed for a amperage greater than your
weakest link.

What I described has been code (and standard practice) for a long time.
There are probably far more 15A receptacles on 20A circuits than 20A
receptacles. You are welcome to suggest a code change. Be sure to
describe the dead bodies - helps a lot in getting your code change approved.

15A receptacles are essentially the same as 20A receptacle.

OK. What about the suggestion of using a 15A switch on a 20A circuit?

On 2008-08-25, jack wrote:

Does this exist?

I want a switch/outlet combination, where if the switch is thrown one way
power goes only to the outlet, and when thrown the otherway it goes only
elsewhere.

It would be like a three-way switch combined with a single outlet.

Combo devices do exist, e.g. the Leviton 5245. All you need is a
3-way switch (SPDT) and a single receptacle on one yoke. You can then
wire the receptacle to be controlled in the fashion you describe.

I'm not sure if your application is a good idea, though. What are you
trying to achieve by having a switch to select between a water heater
and a receptacle?

Cheers, Wayne

"Wayne Whitney" wrote in message
...
On 2008-08-25, jack wrote:

Does this exist?

I want a switch/outlet combination, where if the switch is thrown one way
power goes only to the outlet, and when thrown the otherway it goes only
elsewhere.

It would be like a three-way switch combined with a single outlet.

Combo devices do exist, e.g. the Leviton 5245. All you need is a
3-way switch (SPDT) and a single receptacle on one yoke. You can then
wire the receptacle to be controlled in the fashion you describe.

I'm not sure if your application is a good idea, though. What are you
trying to achieve by having a switch to select between a water heater
and a receptacle?

I am trying to run a circuit for a new water heater. The panel box doesn't
have any knockouts and I really don't want to cut one. There is little box
with an outlet in it just below the box. I can run my water heater to the
little box and steal that circuit, but would then lose the outlet. It would
rarely if ever be used, but still...
By doing this, the outlet would be available if it was ever needed.
(Also, it is bolt on breaker, which I would prefer to avoid dealing with if
possible.)

The Leviton 5245 is only 15a, so if I need a 20a switch/outlet it won't
work. The box only has room for a single device. I can replace the box
with a bigger one, and may have to.

There are many different ways to solve this problem; I am just looking for
the easiest way. Also, I am kinda stalling. The room the water heater is
in is miserably hot and humid; so I am waiting for cooler weather.

On 2008-08-25, jack wrote:

I am trying to run a circuit for a new water heater. The panel box doesn't
have any knockouts and I really don't want to cut one.

No offense, but it would be better just to cut a new hole in the panel
box for the new circuit. The simplest way would be to make a small
starter hole and then slowly enlarge it with a step drill bit until it
is the right size.

There is little box with an outlet in it just below the box. I can
run my water heater to the little box and steal that circuit, but
would then lose the outlet.

If you are dead set against putting a new hole in the panel box, then
you could use the hole that is feeding this outlet box, and just pass
the new circuit straight through the outlet box. This may require a
larger outlet box.

Cheers, Wayne

In article , "jack" wrote:

"Wayne Whitney" wrote in message
...

I'm not sure if your application is a good idea, though. What are you
trying to achieve by having a switch to select between a water heater
and a receptacle?

I am trying to run a circuit for a new water heater. The panel box doesn't
have any knockouts and I really don't want to cut one. There is little box
with an outlet in it just below the box. I can run my water heater to the
little box and steal that circuit, but would then lose the outlet. It would
rarely if ever be used, but still...

Oh, fer cryin' out loud. Just run a new line to the water heater from the
outlet box. Pigtail the connections to the outlet, so that power doesn't have
to pass through the outlet to get to the water heater.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article , "jack"
wrote:

"Wayne Whitney" wrote in message
...

I'm not sure if your application is a good idea, though. What are you
trying to achieve by having a switch to select between a water heater
and a receptacle?

I am trying to run a circuit for a new water heater. The panel box
doesn't
have any knockouts and I really don't want to cut one. There is little
box
with an outlet in it just below the box. I can run my water heater to the
little box and steal that circuit, but would then lose the outlet. It
would
rarely if ever be used, but still...

Oh, fer cryin' out loud. Just run a new line to the water heater from the
outlet box. Pigtail the connections to the outlet, so that power doesn't
have
to pass through the outlet to get to the water heater.

That would certainly be simplest, but it seems like it is begging for an
overload.
No code requirement that a waterheater have a dedicated circuit?

In article , "jack" wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
.. .
In article , "jack"
wrote:

"Wayne Whitney" wrote in message
...

I'm not sure if your application is a good idea, though. What are you
trying to achieve by having a switch to select between a water heater
and a receptacle?

I am trying to run a circuit for a new water heater. The panel box
doesn't
have any knockouts and I really don't want to cut one. There is little
box
with an outlet in it just below the box. I can run my water heater to the
little box and steal that circuit, but would then lose the outlet. It
would
rarely if ever be used, but still...

Oh, fer cryin' out loud. Just run a new line to the water heater from the
outlet box. Pigtail the connections to the outlet, so that power doesn't
have
to pass through the outlet to get to the water heater.

That would certainly be simplest, but it seems like it is begging for an
overload.

How ? If the water heater is not an overload in and of itself, how would an
unused outlet create one?

No code requirement that a waterheater have a dedicated circuit?

Not that I'm aware of. However, I think you said the water heater draws 13
amps. A water heater of 120 gallons or less is considered a "continuous load"
by the Code, which means that the circuit supplying it is limited to 80% of
its rated capacity, or 12 amps for a 15A circuit -- which means that a 13A
water heater requires a 20A circuit.

On 2008-08-25, jack wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message

Oh, fer cryin' out loud. Just run a new line to the water heater
from the outlet box. Pigtail the connections to the outlet, so
that power doesn't have to pass through the outlet to get to the
water heater.

That would certainly be simplest, but it seems like it is begging
for an overload. No code requirement that a waterheater have a
dedicated circuit?

From the 2002 NEC:

210.23(A)(2) "Utilization Equipment Fastened in Place." The total
rating of utilization equipment fastened in place, other than
luminaires (lighting fixtures), shall not exceed 50 percent of the
branch-circuit ampere rating where lighting units, cord-and-plug-
connected utilization equipment not fastened in place, or both, are
also supplied."

So if you have a 13 amp water heater on a 20 amp branch circuit, this
section prohibits you from having a general-purpose receptacle on that
circuit.

Just add a new circuit for your water heater.

Cheers, Wayne

On Aug 25, 12:08*pm, "jack" wrote:

snip

I am trying to run a circuit for a new water heater. *The panel box doesn't
have any knockouts and I really don't want to cut one.

snip

Your reluctance to make a simple hole for a new circuit is puzzling.
Punches for this purpose can be had at Lowes, HD, and the other box
stores at little cost. Tradesmen do this often and don't break into a
rash about it. It is quick, neat, precise, and your friends would all
be impressed. And of then there's all the time saved.

Joe

On Aug 25, 2:40 pm, Joe wrote:
On Aug 25, 12:08 pm, "jack" wrote:

snip
I am trying to run a circuit for a new water heater. The panel box doesn't
have any knockouts and I really don't want to cut one.
snip

Your reluctance to make a simple hole for a new circuit is puzzling.
Punches for this purpose can be had at Lowes, HD, and the other box
stores at little cost. Tradesmen do this often and don't break into a
rash about it. It is quick, neat, precise, and your friends would all
be impressed. And of then there's all the time saved.

Joe

A Unibit is probably cheaper and does the same job. But I agree with
your point.

nate

On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 13:08:25 -0400, "jack" wrote:


"Wayne Whitney" wrote in message
...
On 2008-08-25, jack wrote:

Does this exist?

I want a switch/outlet combination, where if the switch is thrown one way
power goes only to the outlet, and when thrown the otherway it goes only
elsewhere.

It would be like a three-way switch combined with a single outlet.

Combo devices do exist, e.g. the Leviton 5245. All you need is a
3-way switch (SPDT) and a single receptacle on one yoke. You can then
wire the receptacle to be controlled in the fashion you describe.

I'm not sure if your application is a good idea, though. What are you
trying to achieve by having a switch to select between a water heater
and a receptacle?

I am trying to run a circuit for a new water heater. The panel box doesn't
have any knockouts and I really don't want to cut one. There is little box
with an outlet in it just below the box. I can run my water heater to the
little box and steal that circuit, but would then lose the outlet. It would
rarely if ever be used, but still...
By doing this, the outlet would be available if it was ever needed.
(Also, it is bolt on breaker, which I would prefer to avoid dealing with if
possible.)

The Leviton 5245 is only 15a, so if I need a 20a switch/outlet it won't
work. The box only has room for a single device. I can replace the box
with a bigger one, and may have to.

There are many different ways to solve this problem; I am just looking for
the easiest way. Also, I am kinda stalling. The room the water heater is
in is miserably hot and humid; so I am waiting for cooler weather.

I wouldn't want my water heater on a switch as forgetful as I am. I
also wouldn't want anything else on the circuit that could put me with
no hot water.

If a bolt on breaker makes you nervous, kill the main before working
on it.

On Aug 25, 10:24 am, "jack" wrote:
Does this exist?
I want a switch/outlet combination, where if the switch is thrown one way
power goes only to the outlet, and when thrown the otherway it goes only
elsewhere.
It would be like a three-way switch combined with a single outlet.

It is for use on a 20a circuit, but there could never be more than 15a on
the circuit. (switched one way it powers a 13a waterheater, the other way a
single 15a outlet) Will a 15a switch be adequate, or must I have a 20a
switch?

It wouldn't be "like" a 3-way switch, you can use a 3-way switch for
this application. feed goes to the black terminal and the two
traveler terminals can go to your two loads. I'd probably go for a
20A switch just for insurance, it only costs a couple bucks extra.

nate