On 2008-07-27, wrote:

Vertex offers up to 96% thermal efficiency with performance that
rivals much larger water heaters.

Thermal efficiency is a red herring when it comes to tank type water
heaters. They are just saying that 96% of the possible heat from the
gas burned makes its way into the water. There are still standby
losses from storing the hot water, so the overall energy factor is
likely 0.80-0.85. That's still quite good, comparable to a tankless.

Cheers, Wayne

On Jul 27, 10:02*am, " wrote:
http://www.ho****er.com/products/residential/gas.html-

The more hot water you need, the more you need a Vertex water heater.
Through an inspired blend of innovation, efficiency and years of
industry expertise, A. O. Smith has created a family of state-of-the-
art products that provide a long-lasting supply of hot water during
those times when everyone in your home needs it most. Vertex™ power-
vent and power direct-vent gas water heaters take high-demand homes to
the pinnacle of hot water availability. Vertex offers up to 96%
thermal efficiency with performance that rivals much larger water
heaters. With its fully-condensing design, Vertex delivers “continuous
hot water” — shower after shower, hour after hour. Yet it’s easy to
install, with dimensions and installation requirements comparable to
standard power-vent and power direct-vent units.

and ransley you claim having a tankless but now claim you have vertex
high BTU unit. which if either do you really have?

Go to google, Google "Tankless water heater life" .gov eere states
over 20 years, Rinnai states over 20, keep looking, estimates are 30
years. If tanks were not steel but stainless or copper then 50 years
could be acheived. There is nothing to rust out on a tankless coil.
But your water quality is Key, where I am my last commercial AO tank
lasted near 20 years, the new commercial Cyclone 80 gal 190000 btu
tank should last 20, but EF is maybe 70s- low 80 even though the
burner is condensing at 93%.

On Jul 27, 1:45*pm, ransley wrote:
On Jul 27, 10:02*am, " wrote:





http://www.ho****er.com/products/residential/gas.html-

The more hot water you need, the more you need a Vertex water heater.
Through an inspired blend of innovation, efficiency and years of
industry expertise, A. O. Smith has created a family of state-of-the-
art products that provide a long-lasting supply of hot water during
those times when everyone in your home needs it most. Vertex™ power-
vent and power direct-vent gas water heaters take high-demand homes to
the pinnacle of hot water availability. Vertex offers up to 96%
thermal efficiency with performance that rivals much larger water
heaters. With its fully-condensing design, Vertex delivers “continuous
hot water” — shower after shower, hour after hour. Yet it’s easy to
install, with dimensions and installation requirements comparable to
standard power-vent and power direct-vent units.

and ransley you claim having a tankless but now claim you have vertex
high BTU unit. which if either do you really have?

Go to google, Google "Tankless water heater life" .gov eere states
over 20 years, Rinnai states over 20, keep looking, estimates are 30
years. If tanks were not steel but stainless or copper then 50 years
could be acheived. There is nothing to rust out on a tankless coil.
But your water quality is Key, where I am my last commercial AO tank
lasted near 20 years, the new commercial Cyclone 80 gal 190000 btu
tank should last 20, but EF is maybe 70s- low 80 even though the
burner is condensing at 93%.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

ahh a tankless isnt just the heat exchanger, they have complex control
systems, with ICs and other components made for OEM,,,,,

now thats great till the manufacturer decides for whatever reason to
quit suppling the part or the original manufacturer of the component
goes out of business.

that happens a lot, parts get redesigned and no longer profitable to
manufacturer.

if someone decides to go tankless fine, but make certain the installer
knows what they are doing sizing gas lines and vents, and someone
local ios available for service at a reasonable cost if it breaks.

who believes todays current condensing furnaces will last 30 or even
20 years?

if you look at the govenment sites that compare annual water heating
costs theres little difference between tankless and tank type.

ransley any ideas why that is?

wrote:
On Jul 27, 12:07 pm, "J. Clarke" wrote:
wrote:
On Jul 27, 9:32 am, ransley wrote:
On Jul 27, 7:02 am, " wrote:

On Jul 27, 7:05�am, wrote:

On Jul 27, 1:16�am, Rick-Meister
wrote:

Some demand heaters have a modulating gas valve......some. Not
all. And certainly not the low end units.

I'll say it again. I'm not saying that demand heaters aren't
efficient....they are. But there are a few issues with them
regarding efficiency across the board and low flow.

Geez guys, settle down a bit and read the whole post before
you
flame. All I told the guy was to evaluate his usage and be
aware
that there are some circumstances where the demand heaters,
well,
I'm repeating myself.

End of discussion--at least for me.

Before it ends, I'd like an explanation and reference for a
couple
of your statements:

"The higher the water pressure, the larger the BTU's required
to
handle the same usage. "

This makes absolutely no sense. �If the tankless is heating 5
gallons of water, what possible difference in efficiency could
it
make if the water pressure is 30 PSI or 60PSI? �I have never
seen
anyone claim that pressure factors in at all to sizing a
tankless.

I also don't buy the analogy of comparing a tankless to
constantly
refilling a pan heating water on the stove. � You state that
you
are constantly reheating the pan, as if the pan itself somehow
takes and holds heat. � � In reality, the heat is going into
the
water. �Some is escaping as loss around the pan, to the
surroundings, but that happens regardless of whether the pan is
being refilled every minute or left alone for 10 mins. � In
fact,
MORE heat will be transferred to the pan in the case of it
being
refilled with cold water, as the cold water will absorb more of
the heat without it being lost to the surroundings.

If you refill the pan 10 times in 10 minutes, you wind up with
10
pans of barely warm water. � If you leave one pan sit for 10
minutes, you wind up with one pot of hot water. �If you think
some
energy inefficiency is at play here, explain exactly where this
lost energy is going?

one issue with tankless is the delay between draw water to hot
water
arrives.

the tankless must detect water flow, and turn on water,
.........

as a tankless owner told me, we save energy on heating water,
but
waste water and sewer....

now admittedly its not a killer cost but it is there.

another tankless troubling issue..........

if you have temperature control shower valves the fast changing
temperature from tankless can cause valve hunting, where the
shower
temperature doesnt remain stable......

here we have AOSMITH vertex tank type water heaters. 96%
efficent
without the downsides of the tankless.

one last tankless issue.

most require power line voltage to operate. no power no hot
water
at
all.

unlike tank type heaters that have at least a couple quick
showers
onboard at all times...........

so one morning the power is out Your choice before work

No shower at all or a cold one...... which do you preferr

tankless are fine, just like the original vW BUG was....

it will take you to the same place as a more comfy larger
vehicle,
but has limitations. saves energy though.

if your willing to live with the many limitations more power to
you.
myself I prefer the comfort of a regular tank, espically when
Vertex
can supply both the comfort of a tank with the efficency of a
tankless.....

hey ransley, you can get one when your tankless craps out in a
few
more years- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Here we go again, Hallerb you are 1 can short of a 6 pack. I
think
I
should just call you, yo, 5pak.

Delay might be 15 - 30 seconds

Waste, my water bill has not changed, and once pipes are hot you
dont
realy notice anything, but of course you never used one, but
think
you know

What total bs, tankless dont change alot or hunt on temp , again
your
lack of use is lack of knowledge

A vertex is NOT 96% efficent, its near 80 EF, the burner is 96%
but
not overall efficency which is what you need to learn about. And
notice AO Smith wont tell you EF of a Vertex or cyclone. I have a
93%
AO Smith Cyclone a 80 gal 190000 btu unit. Ive had it for 6 years
and
its EF is near 80. Yes its saved me alot over my old tank of near
45
EF. But dont kid yourself, Tank are 15-20% less in overall
efficency
to tankless. Read EF ratings, not burner ratings

My 117000 Bosch needs No AC, it used 2 D batteries for ignition.
Your
condensing tank, needs AC

Here again I have a AO smith 93% Cyclone, give me one valid
reason
my
tankless should "Crap out" soon you cant.

Hey 5 pak. The Vertex is not as efficent as even a Non Condensing
Tankless. Learn EF rating and quit postin crap- Hide quoted
text -

- Show quoted text -

So you admit a 30 second delay, every time you turn hot water on
till
hot water arrives, thanks to the turn on time for the water
heater?????

Uh, I've never seen a tank heater that didn't have a delay between
turning on the tap and hot water arriving. How long the delay is
depends on how much pipe there is between the heater and the tap.





Excellent were making progress

Now lets assume in a quiet home hot water is drawn 20 times a
day

Thats 6 minutes of wasting water and sewer at whatever the flow
daily.

OR 180 MINUTES OF WASTING WATER AND SEWER A MONTH.

now figure in 3 GPM times 180 minutes of pure waste

thats 540 gallons per month around here water and sewer rates have
skyrocketed.

combined about 20 bucks per thousand when the latest increase
becomes
effective. so waste of a quiet home = 10 bucks a month. can easily
double that in a busy home with teenagers....

http://www.ho****er.com/products/residential/gas.html

And if you have no delay it's not because you have a tank water
heater, it's because you're recirculating the water in the pipes to
keep it hot, which costs more than using a little extra water.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

my point about delay is the extra delay is caused purely by the time
of detection, burner on, water getting hot..........

You have yet to demonstrate that there is any "extra delay". What
makes you think that a tankless doesn't keep the water in the coils
hot, anyway?

hey ransley show me a link from any tankless manufacturer stating a
design life of 30 years...

bet you cant.

I'm not "ransley". Perhaps you should put this question in a response
to one of _his_ posts?

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 09:54:19 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

hey ransley show me a link from any tankless manufacturer stating a
design life of 30 years...


Will 20 years or more years be close enough?

....."Most tankless water heaters have a life expectancy of more than
20 years. They also have easily replaceable parts that extend their
life by many more years. In contrast, storage water heaters last 10–15
years. Periodic water heater maintenance can significantly extend your
water heater's life and minimize loss of efficiency. Read your owner's
manual for specific maintenance recommendations."

bet you cant.

http://www.eere.energy.gov/consumer/.../mytopic=12820

wrote:
On Jul 27, 1:45 pm, ransley wrote:
On Jul 27, 10:02 am, " wrote:





http://www.ho****er.com/products/residential/gas.html-

The more hot water you need, the more you need a Vertex water
heater. Through an inspired blend of innovation, efficiency and
years of industry expertise, A. O. Smith has created a family of
state-of-the- art products that provide a long-lasting supply of
hot water during those times when everyone in your home needs it
most. Vertex™ power- vent and power direct-vent gas water heaters
take high-demand homes to the pinnacle of hot water availability.
Vertex offers up to 96% thermal efficiency with performance that
rivals much larger water heaters. With its fully-condensing
design,
Vertex delivers “continuous hot water” — shower after shower, hour
after hour. Yet it’s easy to install, with dimensions and
installation requirements comparable to standard power-vent and
power direct-vent units.

and ransley you claim having a tankless but now claim you have
vertex high BTU unit. which if either do you really have?

Go to google, Google "Tankless water heater life" .gov eere states
over 20 years, Rinnai states over 20, keep looking, estimates are
30
years. If tanks were not steel but stainless or copper then 50
years
could be acheived. There is nothing to rust out on a tankless coil.
But your water quality is Key, where I am my last commercial AO
tank
lasted near 20 years, the new commercial Cyclone 80 gal 190000 btu
tank should last 20, but EF is maybe 70s- low 80 even though the
burner is condensing at 93%.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

ahh a tankless isnt just the heat exchanger, they have complex
control
systems, with ICs and other components made for OEM,,,,,

So how many of these have you taken apart? For that matter how many
tank heaters have you taken apart lately?

now thats great till the manufacturer decides for whatever reason to
quit suppling the part or the original manufacturer of the component
goes out of business.

Same for your tank heater.

that happens a lot, parts get redesigned and no longer profitable to
manufacturer.

if someone decides to go tankless fine, but make certain the
installer
knows what they are doing sizing gas lines and vents, and someone
local ios available for service at a reasonable cost if it breaks.

Same for a tank heater.

who believes todays current condensing furnaces will last 30 or even
20 years?

Why wouldn't they?

if you look at the govenment sites that compare annual water heating
costs theres little difference between tankless and tank type.

ransley any ideas why that is?

Why do you keep addressing your questions to "ransley" instead of to
the group as a whole?

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

On Jul 27, 2:19Â*pm, "J. Clarke" wrote:
wrote:
On Jul 27, 12:07 pm, "J. Clarke" wrote:
wrote:
On Jul 27, 9:32 am, ransley wrote:
On Jul 27, 7:02 am, " wrote:

On Jul 27, 7:05�am, wrote:

On Jul 27, 1:16�am, Rick-Meister
wrote:

Some demand heaters have a modulating gas valve......some. Not
all. And certainly not the low end units.

I'll say it again. I'm not saying that demand heaters aren't
efficient....they are. But there are a few issues with them
regarding efficiency across the board and low flow.

Geez guys, settle down a bit and read the whole post before
you
flame. All I told the guy was to evaluate his usage and be
aware
that there are some circumstances where the demand heaters,
well,
I'm repeating myself.

End of discussion--at least for me.

Before it ends, I'd like an explanation and reference for a
couple
of your statements:

"The higher the water pressure, the larger the BTU's required
to
handle the same usage. "

This makes absolutely no sense. �If the tankless is heating 5
gallons of water, what possible difference in efficiency could
it
make if the water pressure is 30 PSI or 60PSI? �I have never
seen
anyone claim that pressure factors in at all to sizing a
tankless.

I also don't buy the analogy of comparing a tankless to
constantly
refilling a pan heating water on the stove. � You state that
you
are constantly reheating the pan, as if the pan itself somehow
takes and holds heat. � � In reality, the heat is going into
the
water. �Some is escaping as loss around the pan, to the
surroundings, but that happens regardless of whether the pan is
being refilled every minute or left alone for 10 mins. � In
fact,
MORE heat will be transferred to the pan in the case of it
being
refilled with cold water, as the cold water will absorb more of
the heat without it being lost to the surroundings.

If you refill the pan 10 times in 10 minutes, you wind up with
10
pans of barely warm water. � If you leave one pan sit for 10
minutes, you wind up with one pot of hot water. �If you think
some
energy inefficiency is at play here, explain exactly where this
lost energy is going?

one issue with tankless is the delay between draw water to hot
water
arrives.

the tankless must detect water flow, and turn on water,
.........

as a tankless owner told me, we save energy on heating water,
but
waste water and sewer....

now admittedly its not a killer cost but it is there.

another tankless troubling issue..........

if you have temperature control shower valves the fast changing
temperature from tankless can cause valve hunting, where the
shower
temperature doesnt remain stable......

here we have AOSMITH vertex tank type water heaters. 96%
efficent
without the downsides of the tankless.

one last tankless issue.

most require power line voltage to operate. no power no hot
water
at
all.

unlike tank type heaters that have at least a couple quick
showers
onboard at all times...........

so one morning the power is out Your choice before work

No shower at all or a cold one...... which do you preferr

tankless are fine, just like the original vW BUG was....

it will take you to the same place as a more comfy larger
vehicle,
but has limitations. saves energy though.

if your willing to live with the many limitations more power to
you.
myself I prefer the comfort of a regular tank, espically when
Vertex
can supply both the comfort of a tank with the efficency of a
tankless.....

hey ransley, you can get one when your tankless craps out in a
few
more years- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Here we go again, Hallerb you are 1 can short of a 6 pack. I
think
I
should just call you, yo, 5pak.

Delay might be 15 - 30 seconds

Waste, my water bill has not changed, and once pipes are hot you
dont
realy notice anything, but of course you never used one, but
think
you know

What total bs, tankless dont change alot or hunt on temp , again
your
lack of use is lack of knowledge

A vertex is NOT 96% efficent, its near 80 EF, the burner is 96%
but
not overall efficency which is what you need to learn about. And
notice AO Smith wont tell you EF of a Vertex or cyclone. I have a
93%
AO Smith Cyclone a 80 gal 190000 btu unit. Ive had it for 6 years
and
its EF is near 80. Yes its saved me alot over my old tank of near
45
EF. But dont kid yourself, Tank are 15-20% less in overall
efficency
to tankless. Read EF ratings, not burner ratings

My 117000 Bosch needs No AC, it used 2 D batteries for ignition.
Your
condensing tank, needs AC

Here again I have a AO smith 93% Cyclone, give me one valid
reason
my
tankless should "Crap out" soon you cant.

Hey 5 pak. The Vertex is not as efficent as even a Non Condensing
Tankless. Learn EF rating and quit postin crap- Hide quoted
text -

- Show quoted text -

So you admit a 30 second delay, every time you turn hot water on
till
hot water arrives, thanks to the turn on time for the water
heater?????

Uh, I've never seen a tank heater that didn't have a delay between
turning on the tap and hot water arriving. How long the delay is
depends on how much pipe there is between the heater and the tap.

Excellent were making progress

Now lets assume in a quiet home hot water is drawn 20 times a
day

Thats 6 minutes of wasting water and sewer at whatever the flow
daily.

OR 180 MINUTES OF WASTING WATER AND SEWER A MONTH.

now figure in 3 GPM times 180 minutes of pure waste

thats 540 gallons per month around here water and sewer rates have
skyrocketed.

combined about 20 bucks per thousand when the latest increase
becomes
effective. so waste of a quiet home = 10 bucks a month. can easily
double that in a busy home with teenagers....

http://www.ho****er.com/products/residential/gas.html

And if you have no delay it's not because you have a tank water
heater, it's because you're recirculating the water in the pipes to
keep it hot, which costs more than using a little extra water.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

my point about delay is the extra delay is caused purely by the time
of detection, burner on, water getting hot..........

You have yet to demonstrate that there is any "extra delay". Â*What
makes you think that a tankless doesn't keep the water in the coils
hot, anyway?

hey ransley show me a link from any tankless manufacturer stating a
design life of 30 years...

bet you cant.

I'm not "ransley". Â*Perhaps you should put this question in a response
to one of _his_ posts?

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

there very much is a delay, most have a small wheel that turns, once
it moves the burner turns on, tankless heaters dont keep any water
hot, which is how they elminate standby losses.

regular tank heaters rarely need parts, so parts needed 30 years from
now is a non issue.... tank long ago went top scrap metal recycler.

On Jul 27, 11:19Â*am, "J. Clarke" wrote:
wrote:
On Jul 27, 12:07 pm, "J. Clarke" wrote:
wrote:
On Jul 27, 9:32 am, ransley wrote:
On Jul 27, 7:02 am, " wrote:

On Jul 27, 7:05�am, wrote:

On Jul 27, 1:16�am, Rick-Meister
wrote:

Some demand heaters have a modulating gas valve......some. Not
all. And certainly not the low end units.

I'll say it again. I'm not saying that demand heaters aren't
efficient....they are. But there are a few issues with them
regarding efficiency across the board and low flow.

Geez guys, settle down a bit and read the whole post before
you
flame. All I told the guy was to evaluate his usage and be
aware
that there are some circumstances where the demand heaters,
well,
I'm repeating myself.

End of discussion--at least for me.

Before it ends, I'd like an explanation and reference for a
couple
of your statements:

"The higher the water pressure, the larger the BTU's required
to
handle the same usage. "

This makes absolutely no sense. �If the tankless is heating 5
gallons of water, what possible difference in efficiency could
it
make if the water pressure is 30 PSI or 60PSI? �I have never
seen
anyone claim that pressure factors in at all to sizing a
tankless.

I also don't buy the analogy of comparing a tankless to
constantly
refilling a pan heating water on the stove. � You state that
you
are constantly reheating the pan, as if the pan itself somehow
takes and holds heat. � � In reality, the heat is going into
the
water. �Some is escaping as loss around the pan, to the
surroundings, but that happens regardless of whether the pan is
being refilled every minute or left alone for 10 mins. � In
fact,
MORE heat will be transferred to the pan in the case of it
being
refilled with cold water, as the cold water will absorb more of
the heat without it being lost to the surroundings.

If you refill the pan 10 times in 10 minutes, you wind up with
10
pans of barely warm water. � If you leave one pan sit for 10
minutes, you wind up with one pot of hot water. �If you think
some
energy inefficiency is at play here, explain exactly where this
lost energy is going?

one issue with tankless is the delay between draw water to hot
water
arrives.

the tankless must detect water flow, and turn on water,
.........

as a tankless owner told me, we save energy on heating water,
but
waste water and sewer....

now admittedly its not a killer cost but it is there.

another tankless troubling issue..........

if you have temperature control shower valves the fast changing
temperature from tankless can cause valve hunting, where the
shower
temperature doesnt remain stable......

here we have AOSMITH vertex tank type water heaters. 96%
efficent
without the downsides of the tankless.

one last tankless issue.

most require power line voltage to operate. no power no hot
water
at
all.

unlike tank type heaters that have at least a couple quick
showers
onboard at all times...........

so one morning the power is out Your choice before work

No shower at all or a cold one...... which do you preferr

tankless are fine, just like the original vW BUG was....

it will take you to the same place as a more comfy larger
vehicle,
but has limitations. saves energy though.

if your willing to live with the many limitations more power to
you.
myself I prefer the comfort of a regular tank, espically when
Vertex
can supply both the comfort of a tank with the efficency of a
tankless.....

hey ransley, you can get one when your tankless craps out in a
few
more years- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Here we go again, Hallerb you are 1 can short of a 6 pack. I
think
I
should just call you, yo, 5pak.

Delay might be 15 - 30 seconds

Waste, my water bill has not changed, and once pipes are hot you
dont
realy notice anything, but of course you never used one, but
think
you know

What total bs, tankless dont change alot or hunt on temp , again
your
lack of use is lack of knowledge

A vertex is NOT 96% efficent, its near 80 EF, the burner is 96%
but
not overall efficency which is what you need to learn about. And
notice AO Smith wont tell you EF of a Vertex or cyclone. I have a
93%
AO Smith Cyclone a 80 gal 190000 btu unit. Ive had it for 6 years
and
its EF is near 80. Yes its saved me alot over my old tank of near
45
EF. But dont kid yourself, Tank are 15-20% less in overall
efficency
to tankless. Read EF ratings, not burner ratings

My 117000 Bosch needs No AC, it used 2 D batteries for ignition.
Your
condensing tank, needs AC

Here again I have a AO smith 93% Cyclone, give me one valid
reason
my
tankless should "Crap out" soon you cant.

Hey 5 pak. The Vertex is not as efficent as even a Non Condensing
Tankless. Learn EF rating and quit postin crap- Hide quoted
text -

- Show quoted text -

So you admit a 30 second delay, every time you turn hot water on
till
hot water arrives, thanks to the turn on time for the water
heater?????

Uh, I've never seen a tank heater that didn't have a delay between
turning on the tap and hot water arriving. How long the delay is
depends on how much pipe there is between the heater and the tap.

Excellent were making progress

Now lets assume in a quiet home hot water is drawn 20 times a
day

Thats 6 minutes of wasting water and sewer at whatever the flow
daily.

OR 180 MINUTES OF WASTING WATER AND SEWER A MONTH.

now figure in 3 GPM times 180 minutes of pure waste

thats 540 gallons per month around here water and sewer rates have
skyrocketed.

combined about 20 bucks per thousand when the latest increase
becomes
effective. so waste of a quiet home = 10 bucks a month. can easily
double that in a busy home with teenagers....

http://www.ho****er.com/products/residential/gas.html

And if you have no delay it's not because you have a tank water
heater, it's because you're recirculating the water in the pipes to
keep it hot, which costs more than using a little extra water.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

my point about delay is the extra delay is caused purely by the time
of detection, burner on, water getting hot..........

You have yet to demonstrate that there is any "extra delay". Â*What
makes you think that a tankless doesn't keep the water in the coils
hot, anyway?

hey ransley show me a link from any tankless manufacturer stating a
design life of 30 years...

bet you cant.

I'm not "ransley". Â*Perhaps you should put this question in a response
to one of _his_ posts?

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

John-

What
makes you think that a tankless doesn't keep the water in the coils
hot, anyway?

Well, by what mechanism would it keep the "in coil water" warm?

It seems like keeping the "in coil water" warm would kinda defeat the
whole tankless concept, no?

Tankless on demand, water heated as needed.
Keeping the "in coil water" warm would introduce standby loses to the
tankless system & thus reduce the benefit of tankless.

I'd be very surprised if tankless heater kept the coil water water.

In any case the fire up time for a tankless is pretty short, probably
way shorter than most hot water runs.

If a person is worried about water wasted becasue of delay, a "cross
over pump" could be used to dump the hot water line into the cold
water line.

cheers
Bob

wrote:
On Jul 27, 2:19 pm, "J. Clarke" wrote:
wrote:
On Jul 27, 12:07 pm, "J. Clarke" wrote:
wrote:
On Jul 27, 9:32 am, ransley wrote:
On Jul 27, 7:02 am, " wrote:

On Jul 27, 7:05�am, wrote:

On Jul 27, 1:16�am, Rick-Meister
wrote:

Some demand heaters have a modulating gas valve......some.
Not
all. And certainly not the low end units.

I'll say it again. I'm not saying that demand heaters aren't
efficient....they are. But there are a few issues with them
regarding efficiency across the board and low flow.

Geez guys, settle down a bit and read the whole post before
you
flame. All I told the guy was to evaluate his usage and be
aware
that there are some circumstances where the demand heaters,
well,
I'm repeating myself.

End of discussion--at least for me.

Before it ends, I'd like an explanation and reference for a
couple
of your statements:

"The higher the water pressure, the larger the BTU's required
to
handle the same usage. "

This makes absolutely no sense. �If the tankless is heating 5
gallons of water, what possible difference in efficiency
could
it
make if the water pressure is 30 PSI or 60PSI? �I have never
seen
anyone claim that pressure factors in at all to sizing a
tankless.

I also don't buy the analogy of comparing a tankless to
constantly
refilling a pan heating water on the stove. � You state that
you
are constantly reheating the pan, as if the pan itself
somehow
takes and holds heat. � � In reality, the heat is going into
the
water. �Some is escaping as loss around the pan, to the
surroundings, but that happens regardless of whether the pan
is
being refilled every minute or left alone for 10 mins. � In
fact,
MORE heat will be transferred to the pan in the case of it
being
refilled with cold water, as the cold water will absorb more
of
the heat without it being lost to the surroundings.

If you refill the pan 10 times in 10 minutes, you wind up
with
10
pans of barely warm water. � If you leave one pan sit for 10
minutes, you wind up with one pot of hot water. �If you think
some
energy inefficiency is at play here, explain exactly where
this
lost energy is going?

one issue with tankless is the delay between draw water to hot
water
arrives.

the tankless must detect water flow, and turn on water,
.........

as a tankless owner told me, we save energy on heating water,
but
waste water and sewer....

now admittedly its not a killer cost but it is there.

another tankless troubling issue..........

if you have temperature control shower valves the fast
changing
temperature from tankless can cause valve hunting, where the
shower
temperature doesnt remain stable......

here we have AOSMITH vertex tank type water heaters. 96%
efficent
without the downsides of the tankless.

one last tankless issue.

most require power line voltage to operate. no power no hot
water
at
all.

unlike tank type heaters that have at least a couple quick
showers
onboard at all times...........

so one morning the power is out Your choice before work

No shower at all or a cold one...... which do you preferr

tankless are fine, just like the original vW BUG was....

it will take you to the same place as a more comfy larger
vehicle,
but has limitations. saves energy though.

if your willing to live with the many limitations more power
to
you.
myself I prefer the comfort of a regular tank, espically when
Vertex
can supply both the comfort of a tank with the efficency of a
tankless.....

hey ransley, you can get one when your tankless craps out in a
few
more years- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Here we go again, Hallerb you are 1 can short of a 6 pack. I
think
I
should just call you, yo, 5pak.

Delay might be 15 - 30 seconds

Waste, my water bill has not changed, and once pipes are hot
you
dont
realy notice anything, but of course you never used one, but
think
you know

What total bs, tankless dont change alot or hunt on temp ,
again
your
lack of use is lack of knowledge

A vertex is NOT 96% efficent, its near 80 EF, the burner is 96%
but
not overall efficency which is what you need to learn about.
And
notice AO Smith wont tell you EF of a Vertex or cyclone. I have
a
93%
AO Smith Cyclone a 80 gal 190000 btu unit. Ive had it for 6
years
and
its EF is near 80. Yes its saved me alot over my old tank of
near
45
EF. But dont kid yourself, Tank are 15-20% less in overall
efficency
to tankless. Read EF ratings, not burner ratings

My 117000 Bosch needs No AC, it used 2 D batteries for
ignition.
Your
condensing tank, needs AC

Here again I have a AO smith 93% Cyclone, give me one valid
reason
my
tankless should "Crap out" soon you cant.

Hey 5 pak. The Vertex is not as efficent as even a Non
Condensing
Tankless. Learn EF rating and quit postin crap- Hide quoted
text -

- Show quoted text -

So you admit a 30 second delay, every time you turn hot water on
till
hot water arrives, thanks to the turn on time for the water
heater?????

Uh, I've never seen a tank heater that didn't have a delay
between
turning on the tap and hot water arriving. How long the delay is
depends on how much pipe there is between the heater and the tap.

Excellent were making progress

Now lets assume in a quiet home hot water is drawn 20 times a
day

Thats 6 minutes of wasting water and sewer at whatever the flow
daily.

OR 180 MINUTES OF WASTING WATER AND SEWER A MONTH.

now figure in 3 GPM times 180 minutes of pure waste

thats 540 gallons per month around here water and sewer rates
have
skyrocketed.

combined about 20 bucks per thousand when the latest increase
becomes
effective. so waste of a quiet home = 10 bucks a month. can
easily
double that in a busy home with teenagers....

http://www.ho****er.com/products/residential/gas.html

And if you have no delay it's not because you have a tank water
heater, it's because you're recirculating the water in the pipes
to
keep it hot, which costs more than using a little extra water.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

my point about delay is the extra delay is caused purely by the
time
of detection, burner on, water getting hot..........

You have yet to demonstrate that there is any "extra delay". What
makes you think that a tankless doesn't keep the water in the coils
hot, anyway?

hey ransley show me a link from any tankless manufacturer stating
a
design life of 30 years...

bet you cant.

I'm not "ransley". Perhaps you should put this question in a
response
to one of _his_ posts?

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

there very much is a delay, most have a small wheel that turns, once
it moves the burner turns on, tankless heaters dont keep any water
hot, which is how they elminate standby losses.

Is that your opinion or do you have a statement from a manufacturer to
that effect?

regular tank heaters rarely need parts, so parts needed 30 years
from
now is a non issue.... tank long ago went top scrap metal recycler.

And, based on some source other than your bunghole, how often do
tankless need them?

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

On Jul 27, 5:56Â*pm, BobK207 wrote:
On Jul 27, 11:19Â*am, "J. Clarke" wrote:





wrote:
On Jul 27, 12:07 pm, "J. Clarke" wrote:
wrote:
On Jul 27, 9:32 am, ransley wrote:
On Jul 27, 7:02 am, " wrote:

On Jul 27, 7:05�am, wrote:

On Jul 27, 1:16�am, Rick-Meister
wrote:

Some demand heaters have a modulating gas valve......some. Not
all. And certainly not the low end units.

I'll say it again. I'm not saying that demand heaters aren't
efficient....they are. But there are a few issues with them
regarding efficiency across the board and low flow.

Geez guys, settle down a bit and read the whole post before
you
flame. All I told the guy was to evaluate his usage and be
aware
that there are some circumstances where the demand heaters,
well,
I'm repeating myself.

End of discussion--at least for me.

Before it ends, I'd like an explanation and reference for a
couple
of your statements:

"The higher the water pressure, the larger the BTU's required
to
handle the same usage. "

This makes absolutely no sense. �If the tankless is heating 5
gallons of water, what possible difference in efficiency could
it
make if the water pressure is 30 PSI or 60PSI? �I have never
seen
anyone claim that pressure factors in at all to sizing a
tankless.

I also don't buy the analogy of comparing a tankless to
constantly
refilling a pan heating water on the stove. � You state that
you
are constantly reheating the pan, as if the pan itself somehow
takes and holds heat. � � In reality, the heat is going into
the
water. �Some is escaping as loss around the pan, to the
surroundings, but that happens regardless of whether the pan is
being refilled every minute or left alone for 10 mins. � In
fact,
MORE heat will be transferred to the pan in the case of it
being
refilled with cold water, as the cold water will absorb more of
the heat without it being lost to the surroundings.

If you refill the pan 10 times in 10 minutes, you wind up with
10
pans of barely warm water. � If you leave one pan sit for 10
minutes, you wind up with one pot of hot water. �If you think
some
energy inefficiency is at play here, explain exactly where this
lost energy is going?

one issue with tankless is the delay between draw water to hot
water
arrives.

the tankless must detect water flow, and turn on water,
.........

as a tankless owner told me, we save energy on heating water,
but
waste water and sewer....

now admittedly its not a killer cost but it is there.

another tankless troubling issue..........

if you have temperature control shower valves the fast changing
temperature from tankless can cause valve hunting, where the
shower
temperature doesnt remain stable......

here we have AOSMITH vertex tank type water heaters. 96%
efficent
without the downsides of the tankless.

one last tankless issue.

most require power line voltage to operate. no power no hot
water
at
all.

unlike tank type heaters that have at least a couple quick
showers
onboard at all times...........

so one morning the power is out Your choice before work

No shower at all or a cold one...... which do you preferr

tankless are fine, just like the original vW BUG was....

it will take you to the same place as a more comfy larger
vehicle,
but has limitations. saves energy though.

if your willing to live with the many limitations more power to
you.
myself I prefer the comfort of a regular tank, espically when
Vertex
can supply both the comfort of a tank with the efficency of a
tankless.....

hey ransley, you can get one when your tankless craps out in a
few
more years- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Here we go again, Hallerb you are 1 can short of a 6 pack. I
think
I
should just call you, yo, 5pak.

Delay might be 15 - 30 seconds

Waste, my water bill has not changed, and once pipes are hot you
dont
realy notice anything, but of course you never used one, but
think
you know

What total bs, tankless dont change alot or hunt on temp , again
your
lack of use is lack of knowledge

A vertex is NOT 96% efficent, its near 80 EF, the burner is 96%
but
not overall efficency which is what you need to learn about. And
notice AO Smith wont tell you EF of a Vertex or cyclone. I have a
93%
AO Smith Cyclone a 80 gal 190000 btu unit. Ive had it for 6 years
and
its EF is near 80. Yes its saved me alot over my old tank of near
45
EF. But dont kid yourself, Tank are 15-20% less in overall
efficency
to tankless. Read EF ratings, not burner ratings

My 117000 Bosch needs No AC, it used 2 D batteries for ignition.
Your
condensing tank, needs AC

Here again I have a AO smith 93% Cyclone, give me one valid
reason
my
tankless should "Crap out" soon you cant.

Hey 5 pak. The Vertex is not as efficent as even a Non Condensing
Tankless. Learn EF rating and quit postin crap- Hide quoted
text -

- Show quoted text -

So you admit a 30 second delay, every time you turn hot water on
till
hot water arrives, thanks to the turn on time for the water
heater?????

Uh, I've never seen a tank heater that didn't have a delay between
turning on the tap and hot water arriving. How long the delay is
depends on how much pipe there is between the heater and the tap.

Excellent were making progress

Now lets assume in a quiet home hot water is drawn 20 times a
day

Thats 6 minutes of wasting water and sewer at whatever the flow
daily.

OR 180 MINUTES OF WASTING WATER AND SEWER A MONTH.

now figure in 3 GPM times 180 minutes of pure waste

thats 540 gallons per month around here water and sewer rates have
skyrocketed.

combined about 20 bucks per thousand when the latest increase
becomes
effective. so waste of a quiet home = 10 bucks a month. can easily
double that in a busy home with teenagers....

http://www.ho****er.com/products/residential/gas.html

And if you have no delay it's not because you have a tank water
heater, it's because you're recirculating the water in the pipes to
keep it hot, which costs more than using a little extra water.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

my point about delay is the extra delay is caused purely by the time
of detection, burner on, water getting hot..........

You have yet to demonstrate that there is any "extra delay". Â*What
makes you think that a tankless doesn't keep the water in the coils
hot, anyway?

hey ransley show me a link from any tankless manufacturer stating a
design life of 30 years...

bet you cant.

I'm not "ransley". Â*Perhaps you should put this question in a response
to one of _his_ posts?

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

John-

What

makes you think that a tankless doesn't keep the water in the coils
hot, anyway?

Well, by what mechanism would it keep the "in coil water" warm?

It seems like keeping the "in coil water" warm would kinda defeat the
whole tankless concept, no?

Tankless on demand, water heated as needed.
Keeping the "in coil water" warm would introduce standby loses to the
tankless system & thus reduce the benefit of tankless.

I'd be very surprised if tankless heater kept the coil water water.

In any case the fire up time for a tankless is pretty short, probably
way shorter than most hot water runs.

If a person is worried about water wasted becasue of delay, a "cross
over pump" could be used to dump the hot water line into the cold
water line.

cheers
Bob- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I think all tankless are pilotless, right, if you keep a coil warm you
loose all efficency gain, but there are models made to be outside with
an anti freeze circuit that is electric, but it has its own thermostat.

On Jul 27, 5:19Â*pm, " wrote:
On Jul 27, 2:19Â*pm, "J. Clarke" wrote:





wrote:
On Jul 27, 12:07 pm, "J. Clarke" wrote:
wrote:
On Jul 27, 9:32 am, ransley wrote:
On Jul 27, 7:02 am, " wrote:

On Jul 27, 7:05�am, wrote:

On Jul 27, 1:16�am, Rick-Meister
wrote:

Some demand heaters have a modulating gas valve......some. Not
all. And certainly not the low end units.

I'll say it again. I'm not saying that demand heaters aren't
efficient....they are. But there are a few issues with them
regarding efficiency across the board and low flow.

Geez guys, settle down a bit and read the whole post before
you
flame. All I told the guy was to evaluate his usage and be
aware
that there are some circumstances where the demand heaters,
well,
I'm repeating myself.

End of discussion--at least for me.

Before it ends, I'd like an explanation and reference for a
couple
of your statements:

"The higher the water pressure, the larger the BTU's required
to
handle the same usage. "

This makes absolutely no sense. �If the tankless is heating 5
gallons of water, what possible difference in efficiency could
it
make if the water pressure is 30 PSI or 60PSI? �I have never
seen
anyone claim that pressure factors in at all to sizing a
tankless.

I also don't buy the analogy of comparing a tankless to
constantly
refilling a pan heating water on the stove. � You state that
you
are constantly reheating the pan, as if the pan itself somehow
takes and holds heat. � � In reality, the heat is going into
the
water. �Some is escaping as loss around the pan, to the
surroundings, but that happens regardless of whether the pan is
being refilled every minute or left alone for 10 mins. � In
fact,
MORE heat will be transferred to the pan in the case of it
being
refilled with cold water, as the cold water will absorb more of
the heat without it being lost to the surroundings.

If you refill the pan 10 times in 10 minutes, you wind up with
10
pans of barely warm water. � If you leave one pan sit for 10
minutes, you wind up with one pot of hot water. �If you think
some
energy inefficiency is at play here, explain exactly where this
lost energy is going?

one issue with tankless is the delay between draw water to hot
water
arrives.

the tankless must detect water flow, and turn on water,
.........

as a tankless owner told me, we save energy on heating water,
but
waste water and sewer....

now admittedly its not a killer cost but it is there.

another tankless troubling issue..........

if you have temperature control shower valves the fast changing
temperature from tankless can cause valve hunting, where the
shower
temperature doesnt remain stable......

here we have AOSMITH vertex tank type water heaters. 96%
efficent
without the downsides of the tankless.

one last tankless issue.

most require power line voltage to operate. no power no hot
water
at
all.

unlike tank type heaters that have at least a couple quick
showers
onboard at all times...........

so one morning the power is out Your choice before work

No shower at all or a cold one...... which do you preferr

tankless are fine, just like the original vW BUG was....

it will take you to the same place as a more comfy larger
vehicle,
but has limitations. saves energy though.

if your willing to live with the many limitations more power to
you.
myself I prefer the comfort of a regular tank, espically when
Vertex
can supply both the comfort of a tank with the efficency of a
tankless.....

hey ransley, you can get one when your tankless craps out in a
few
more years- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Here we go again, Hallerb you are 1 can short of a 6 pack. I
think
I
should just call you, yo, 5pak.

Delay might be 15 - 30 seconds

Waste, my water bill has not changed, and once pipes are hot you
dont
realy notice anything, but of course you never used one, but
think
you know

What total bs, tankless dont change alot or hunt on temp , again
your
lack of use is lack of knowledge

A vertex is NOT 96% efficent, its near 80 EF, the burner is 96%
but
not overall efficency which is what you need to learn about. And
notice AO Smith wont tell you EF of a Vertex or cyclone. I have a
93%
AO Smith Cyclone a 80 gal 190000 btu unit. Ive had it for 6 years
and
its EF is near 80. Yes its saved me alot over my old tank of near
45
EF. But dont kid yourself, Tank are 15-20% less in overall
efficency
to tankless. Read EF ratings, not burner ratings

My 117000 Bosch needs No AC, it used 2 D batteries for ignition.
Your
condensing tank, needs AC

Here again I have a AO smith 93% Cyclone, give me one valid
reason
my
tankless should "Crap out" soon you cant.

Hey 5 pak. The Vertex is not as efficent as even a Non Condensing
Tankless. Learn EF rating and quit postin crap- Hide quoted
text -

- Show quoted text -

So you admit a 30 second delay, every time you turn hot water on
till
hot water arrives, thanks to the turn on time for the water
heater?????

Uh, I've never seen a tank heater that didn't have a delay between
turning on the tap and hot water arriving. How long the delay is
depends on how much pipe there is between the heater and the tap.

Excellent were making progress

Now lets assume in a quiet home hot water is drawn 20 times a
day

Thats 6 minutes of wasting water and sewer at whatever the flow
daily.

OR 180 MINUTES OF WASTING WATER AND SEWER A MONTH.

now figure in 3 GPM times 180 minutes of pure waste

thats 540 gallons per month around here water and sewer rates have
skyrocketed.

combined about 20 bucks per thousand when the latest increase
becomes
effective. so waste of a quiet home = 10 bucks a month. can easily
double that in a busy home with teenagers....

http://www.ho****er.com/products/residential/gas.html

And if you have no delay it's not because you have a tank water
heater, it's because you're recirculating the water in the pipes to
keep it hot, which costs more than using a little extra water.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

my point about delay is the extra delay is caused purely by the time
of detection, burner on, water getting hot..........

You have yet to demonstrate that there is any "extra delay". Â*What
makes you think that a tankless doesn't keep the water in the coils
hot, anyway?

hey ransley show me a link from any tankless manufacturer stating a
design life of 30 years...

bet you cant.

I'm not "ransley". Â*Perhaps you should put this question in a response
to one of _his_ posts?

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

there very much is a delay, most have a small wheel that turns, once
it moves the burner turns on, tankless heaters dont keep any water
hot, Â*which is how they elminate standby losses.

regular tank heaters rarely need parts, so parts needed 30 years from
now is a non issue.... tank long ago went top scrap metal recycler.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You are riding a dead horse hallerb, because you never used one. You
are also wrong on you "Pick of the week", a Ao Smith Vertex having a
non maintenance system, My AO Cyclone has as many parts as a modern
furnace it has 3 vacume things on top, blowers, a board etc, it has
more parts than a tankless I have. And no the vertex is near 80% in
total efficency, but you cant find an EF rating unless you call AO
Smith they dont want to shock you away.

On Jul 27, 9:36Â*pm, ransley wrote:
On Jul 27, 5:19Â*pm, " wrote:





On Jul 27, 2:19Â*pm, "J. Clarke" wrote:

wrote:
On Jul 27, 12:07 pm, "J. Clarke" wrote:
wrote:
On Jul 27, 9:32 am, ransley wrote:
On Jul 27, 7:02 am, " wrote:

On Jul 27, 7:05�am, wrote:

On Jul 27, 1:16�am, Rick-Meister
wrote:

Some demand heaters have a modulating gas valve......some. Not
all. And certainly not the low end units.

I'll say it again. I'm not saying that demand heaters aren't
efficient....they are. But there are a few issues with them
regarding efficiency across the board and low flow.

Geez guys, settle down a bit and read the whole post before
you
flame. All I told the guy was to evaluate his usage and be
aware
that there are some circumstances where the demand heaters,
well,
I'm repeating myself.

End of discussion--at least for me.

Before it ends, I'd like an explanation and reference for a
couple
of your statements:

"The higher the water pressure, the larger the BTU's required
to
handle the same usage. "

This makes absolutely no sense. �If the tankless is heating 5
gallons of water, what possible difference in efficiency could
it
make if the water pressure is 30 PSI or 60PSI? �I have never
seen
anyone claim that pressure factors in at all to sizing a
tankless.

I also don't buy the analogy of comparing a tankless to
constantly
refilling a pan heating water on the stove. � You state that
you
are constantly reheating the pan, as if the pan itself somehow
takes and holds heat. � � In reality, the heat is going into
the
water. �Some is escaping as loss around the pan, to the
surroundings, but that happens regardless of whether the pan is
being refilled every minute or left alone for 10 mins. � In
fact,
MORE heat will be transferred to the pan in the case of it
being
refilled with cold water, as the cold water will absorb more of
the heat without it being lost to the surroundings.

If you refill the pan 10 times in 10 minutes, you wind up with
10
pans of barely warm water. � If you leave one pan sit for 10
minutes, you wind up with one pot of hot water. �If you think
some
energy inefficiency is at play here, explain exactly where this
lost energy is going?

one issue with tankless is the delay between draw water to hot
water
arrives.

the tankless must detect water flow, and turn on water,
.........

as a tankless owner told me, we save energy on heating water,
but
waste water and sewer....

now admittedly its not a killer cost but it is there.

another tankless troubling issue..........

if you have temperature control shower valves the fast changing
temperature from tankless can cause valve hunting, where the
shower
temperature doesnt remain stable......

here we have AOSMITH vertex tank type water heaters. 96%
efficent
without the downsides of the tankless.

one last tankless issue.

most require power line voltage to operate. no power no hot
water
at
all.

unlike tank type heaters that have at least a couple quick
showers
onboard at all times...........

so one morning the power is out Your choice before work

No shower at all or a cold one...... which do you preferr

tankless are fine, just like the original vW BUG was....

it will take you to the same place as a more comfy larger
vehicle,
but has limitations. saves energy though.

if your willing to live with the many limitations more power to
you.
myself I prefer the comfort of a regular tank, espically when
Vertex
can supply both the comfort of a tank with the efficency of a
tankless.....

hey ransley, you can get one when your tankless craps out in a
few
more years- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Here we go again, Hallerb you are 1 can short of a 6 pack. I
think
I
should just call you, yo, 5pak.

Delay might be 15 - 30 seconds

Waste, my water bill has not changed, and once pipes are hot you
dont
realy notice anything, but of course you never used one, but
think
you know

What total bs, tankless dont change alot or hunt on temp , again
your
lack of use is lack of knowledge

A vertex is NOT 96% efficent, its near 80 EF, the burner is 96%
but
not overall efficency which is what you need to learn about. And
notice AO Smith wont tell you EF of a Vertex or cyclone. I have a
93%
AO Smith Cyclone a 80 gal 190000 btu unit. Ive had it for 6 years
and
its EF is near 80. Yes its saved me alot over my old tank of near
45
EF. But dont kid yourself, Tank are 15-20% less in overall
efficency
to tankless. Read EF ratings, not burner ratings

My 117000 Bosch needs No AC, it used 2 D batteries for ignition.
Your
condensing tank, needs AC

Here again I have a AO smith 93% Cyclone, give me one valid
reason
my
tankless should "Crap out" soon you cant.

Hey 5 pak. The Vertex is not as efficent as even a Non Condensing
Tankless. Learn EF rating and quit postin crap- Hide quoted
text -

- Show quoted text -

So you admit a 30 second delay, every time you turn hot water on
till
hot water arrives, thanks to the turn on time for the water
heater?????

Uh, I've never seen a tank heater that didn't have a delay between
turning on the tap and hot water arriving. How long the delay is
depends on how much pipe there is between the heater and the tap.

Excellent were making progress

Now lets assume in a quiet home hot water is drawn 20 times a
day

Thats 6 minutes of wasting water and sewer at whatever the flow
daily.

OR 180 MINUTES OF WASTING WATER AND SEWER A MONTH.

now figure in 3 GPM times 180 minutes of pure waste

thats 540 gallons per month around here water and sewer rates have
skyrocketed.

combined about 20 bucks per thousand when the latest increase
becomes
effective. so waste of a quiet home = 10 bucks a month. can easily
double that in a busy home with teenagers....

http://www.ho****er.com/products/residential/gas.html

And if you have no delay it's not because you have a tank water
heater, it's because you're recirculating the water in the pipes to
keep it hot, which costs more than using a little extra water.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

my point about delay is the extra delay is caused purely by the time
of detection, burner on, water getting hot..........

You have yet to demonstrate that there is any "extra delay". Â*What
makes you think that a tankless doesn't keep the water in the coils
hot, anyway?

hey ransley show me a link from any tankless manufacturer stating a
design life of 30 years...

bet you cant.

I'm not "ransley". Â*Perhaps you should put this question in a response
to one of _his_ posts?

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

there very much is a delay, most have a small wheel that turns, once
it moves the burner turns on, tankless heaters dont keep any water
hot, Â*which is how they elminate standby losses.

regular tank heaters rarely need parts, so parts needed 30 years from
now is a non issue.... tank long ago went top scrap metal recycler.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You are riding a dead horse hallerb, because you never used one. You
are also wrong on you "Pick of the week", a Ao Smith Vertex having a
non maintenance system, My AO Cyclone has as many parts as a modern
furnace it has 3 vacume things on top, blowers, a board etc, it has
more parts than a tankless I have. And no the vertex is near 80% in
total efficency, but you cant find an EF rating unless you call AO
Smith they dont want to shock you away.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I said a regular tank heater rarely requires service, other than tank
replacement....... perhaps one had a thermocouple fail

And no the vertex is near 80% in
total efficency, but you cant find an EF rating unless you call AO
Smith they dont want to shock you away.- Hide quoted text -

I said a standard tank is a simple appliance that rarely requires any
service, I am 51 and in my entire life perhaps one needed a
thermocouple.

heres a paste from AO SMITH

Vertex offers up to 96% thermal efficiency with performance that
rivals much larger water heaters

On 2008-07-28, wrote:

heres a paste from AO SMITH

Vertex offers up to 96% thermal efficiency with performance that
rivals much larger water heaters

And again, thermal efficiency isn't overall efficiency, due to standby
losses. Thermal efficiency just measures how good it is at burning
gas.

Wayne

On Jul 27, 9:58*pm, " wrote:
*And no the vertex is near 80% in

total efficency, but you cant find an EF rating unless you call AO
Smith they dont want to shock you away.- Hide quoted text -

I said a standard tank is a simple appliance that rarely requires any
service, I am 51 and in my entire life perhaps one needed a
thermocouple.

heres a paste from AO SMITH

Vertex offers up to 96% thermal efficiency with performance that
rivals much larger water heaters

You are pushing Vertex, a complex condensing unit, more complex than
tankless of higher EF, Vertex is near 80 or less EF. 96% rating is for
suckers that dont know what EF is. EF is akin to AFUE.

"ransley" wrote in message
...
On Jul 27, 10:02 am, " wrote:
http://www.ho****er.com/products/residential/gas.html-

The more hot water you need, the more you need a Vertex water heater.
Through an inspired blend of innovation, efficiency and years of
industry expertise, A. O. Smith has created a family of state-of-the-
art products that provide a long-lasting supply of hot water during
those times when everyone in your home needs it most. Vertex™ power-
vent and power direct-vent gas water heaters take high-demand homes to
the pinnacle of hot water availability. Vertex offers up to 96%
thermal efficiency with performance that rivals much larger water
heaters. With its fully-condensing design, Vertex delivers “continuous
hot water” — shower after shower, hour after hour. Yet it’s easy to
install, with dimensions and installation requirements comparable to
standard power-vent and power direct-vent units.

and ransley you claim having a tankless but now claim you have vertex
high BTU unit. which if either do you really have?

Go to google, Google "Tankless water heater life" .gov eere states
over 20 years, Rinnai states over 20, keep looking, estimates are 30
years. If tanks were not steel but stainless or copper then 50 years
could be acheived. There is nothing to rust out on a tankless coil.
But your water quality is Key, where I am my last commercial AO tank
lasted near 20 years, the new commercial Cyclone 80 gal 190000 btu
tank should last 20, but EF is maybe 70s- low 80 even though the
burner is condensing at 93%.

I installed a Paloma tankless in 1983 for a tugboat I was living aboard and
restoring. The Paloma is still going strong after 25 years of steady use as
the only source of domestic hot water on the boat. Granted the Paloma has
none of the sophisticated electronics of today's tankless heaters. but I
think it's a testimony of the hardware involved (copper and aluminum).

On Jul 28, 12:14*pm, "Waldo Point" wrote:
"ransley" wrote in message

...
On Jul 27, 10:02 am, " wrote:





http://www.ho****er.com/products/residential/gas.html-

The more hot water you need, the more you need a Vertex water heater.
Through an inspired blend of innovation, efficiency and years of
industry expertise, A. O. Smith has created a family of state-of-the-
art products that provide a long-lasting supply of hot water during
those times when everyone in your home needs it most. Vertex™ power-
vent and power direct-vent gas water heaters take high-demand homes to
the pinnacle of hot water availability. Vertex offers up to 96%
thermal efficiency with performance that rivals much larger water
heaters. With its fully-condensing design, Vertex delivers “continuous
hot water” — shower after shower, hour after hour. Yet it’s easy to
install, with dimensions and installation requirements comparable to
standard power-vent and power direct-vent units.

and ransley you claim having a tankless but now claim you have vertex
high BTU unit. which if either do you really have?
Go to google, Google "Tankless water heater life" .gov eere states
over 20 years, Rinnai states over 20, keep looking, estimates are 30
years. If tanks were not steel but stainless or copper then 50 years
could be acheived. There is nothing to rust out on a tankless coil.
But your water quality is Key, where I am my last commercial AO tank
lasted near 20 years, the new commercial Cyclone 80 gal 190000 btu
tank should last 20, but EF is maybe 70s- low 80 even though the
burner is condensing at 93%.

I installed a Paloma tankless in 1983 for a tugboat I was living aboard and
restoring. The Paloma is still going strong after 25 years of steady use as
the only source of domestic hot water on the boat. Granted the Paloma has
none of the sophisticated electronics of today's tankless heaters. but I
think it's a testimony of the hardware involved (copper and aluminum).- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Hallerb is a guy who puts down the value of anything he cant afford by
its warranty span as validation its not worth extra money. Thats right
I now realise the boat I lived on had a small electric tankless used
when docked with AC, I never had a cold shower now that I think of it,
and it may have been a 15a dock outlet.

On Jul 28, 2:27*pm, ransley wrote:
On Jul 28, 12:14*pm, "Waldo Point" wrote:





"ransley" wrote in message

...
On Jul 27, 10:02 am, " wrote:

http://www.ho****er.com/products/residential/gas.html-

The more hot water you need, the more you need a Vertex water heater.
Through an inspired blend of innovation, efficiency and years of
industry expertise, A. O. Smith has created a family of state-of-the-
art products that provide a long-lasting supply of hot water during
those times when everyone in your home needs it most. Vertex™ power-
vent and power direct-vent gas water heaters take high-demand homes to
the pinnacle of hot water availability. Vertex offers up to 96%
thermal efficiency with performance that rivals much larger water
heaters. With its fully-condensing design, Vertex delivers “continuous
hot water” — shower after shower, hour after hour. Yet it’s easy to
install, with dimensions and installation requirements comparable to
standard power-vent and power direct-vent units.

and ransley you claim having a tankless but now claim you have vertex
high BTU unit. which if either do you really have?
Go to google, Google "Tankless water heater life" .gov eere states
over 20 years, Rinnai states over 20, keep looking, estimates are 30
years. If tanks were not steel but stainless or copper then 50 years
could be acheived. There is nothing to rust out on a tankless coil.
But your water quality is Key, where I am my last commercial AO tank
lasted near 20 years, the new commercial Cyclone 80 gal 190000 btu
tank should last 20, but EF is maybe 70s- low 80 even though the
burner is condensing at 93%.

I installed a Paloma tankless in 1983 for a tugboat I was living aboard and
restoring. The Paloma is still going strong after 25 years of steady use as
the only source of domestic hot water on the boat. Granted the Paloma has
none of the sophisticated electronics of today's tankless heaters. but I
think it's a testimony of the hardware involved (copper and aluminum).- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Hallerb is a guy who puts down the value of anything he cant afford by
its warranty span as validation its not worth extra money. Thats right
I now realise the boat I lived on had a small electric tankless used
when docked with AC, I never had a cold shower now that I think of it,
and it may have been a 15a dock outlet.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Gee I am looking at a new high efficency condensing hot water tank,
and last month got a brand new condensing furnace with air.

a tankless would likely cost less than a condensing tank type water
heater, but I want the best, not the lowest cost, or in case of
tankless, the downsides of that system. I will happily pay a bit more
for comfort and convenience.

Do you cheapskate out on everything? life is too short for that.

On Jul 28, 1:14*pm, "Waldo Point" wrote:
"ransley" wrote in message

...
On Jul 27, 10:02 am, " wrote:





http://www.ho****er.com/products/residential/gas.html-

The more hot water you need, the more you need a Vertex water heater.
Through an inspired blend of innovation, efficiency and years of
industry expertise, A. O. Smith has created a family of state-of-the-
art products that provide a long-lasting supply of hot water during
those times when everyone in your home needs it most. Vertex™ power-
vent and power direct-vent gas water heaters take high-demand homes to
the pinnacle of hot water availability. Vertex offers up to 96%
thermal efficiency with performance that rivals much larger water
heaters. With its fully-condensing design, Vertex delivers “continuous
hot water” — shower after shower, hour after hour. Yet it’s easy to
install, with dimensions and installation requirements comparable to
standard power-vent and power direct-vent units.

and ransley you claim having a tankless but now claim you have vertex
high BTU unit. which if either do you really have?
Go to google, Google "Tankless water heater life" .gov eere states
over 20 years, Rinnai states over 20, keep looking, estimates are 30
years. If tanks were not steel but stainless or copper then 50 years
could be acheived. There is nothing to rust out on a tankless coil.
But your water quality is Key, where I am my last commercial AO tank
lasted near 20 years, the new commercial Cyclone 80 gal 190000 btu
tank should last 20, but EF is maybe 70s- low 80 even though the
burner is condensing at 93%.

I installed a Paloma tankless in 1983 for a tugboat I was living aboard and
restoring. The Paloma is still going strong after 25 years of steady use as
the only source of domestic hot water on the boat. Granted the Paloma has
none of the sophisticated electronics of today's tankless heaters. but I
think it's a testimony of the hardware involved (copper and aluminum).- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

dont showers on ships have limited fresh water supply and very low
flow heads?

wrote in message
...
On Jul 28, 1:14 pm, "Waldo Point" wrote:
"ransley" wrote in message

...
On Jul 27, 10:02 am, " wrote:





http://www.ho****er.com/products/residential/gas.html-

The more hot water you need, the more you need a Vertex water heater.
Through an inspired blend of innovation, efficiency and years of
industry expertise, A. O. Smith has created a family of state-of-the-
art products that provide a long-lasting supply of hot water during
those times when everyone in your home needs it most. Vertex™ power-
vent and power direct-vent gas water heaters take high-demand homes to
the pinnacle of hot water availability. Vertex offers up to 96%
thermal efficiency with performance that rivals much larger water
heaters. With its fully-condensing design, Vertex delivers “continuous
hot water” — shower after shower, hour after hour. Yet it’s easy to
install, with dimensions and installation requirements comparable to
standard power-vent and power direct-vent units.

and ransley you claim having a tankless but now claim you have vertex
high BTU unit. which if either do you really have?
Go to google, Google "Tankless water heater life" .gov eere states
over 20 years, Rinnai states over 20, keep looking, estimates are 30
years. If tanks were not steel but stainless or copper then 50 years
could be acheived. There is nothing to rust out on a tankless coil.
But your water quality is Key, where I am my last commercial AO tank
lasted near 20 years, the new commercial Cyclone 80 gal 190000 btu
tank should last 20, but EF is maybe 70s- low 80 even though the
burner is condensing at 93%.

I installed a Paloma tankless in 1983 for a tugboat I was living aboard
and
restoring. The Paloma is still going strong after 25 years of steady use
as
the only source of domestic hot water on the boat. Granted the Paloma has
none of the sophisticated electronics of today's tankless heaters. but I
think it's a testimony of the hardware involved (copper and aluminum).-
Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

dont showers on ships have limited fresh water supply and very low
flow heads?

When underway yes. when I was living aboard I spent most of my time at the
dock with plenty of fresh water. BTW back then I didn't have 2 pennies to
rub together :-), so buying the Paloma was a splurge.