Fill crawl space with foam?
 

The dining area of my kitchen is built over a crawl space that's enclosed by
cinder blocks like the rest of the house. In the basement, there are two
openings to this crawl space, but they're only 6" high x 18" wide. I assume
they were put there for ventilation purposes, since they're useless for
anything else. The area in question juts out from the main kitchen, and is
12x12 feet.

In winter, the floor is ice cold, so that dining area is useless. I believe
the traditional first step for dealing with this is to lay a plastic vapor
barrier on the soil underneath, followed by fiberglass insulation. The vinyl
flooring needs replacement, so I could also rip up the wood underneath in
that area and have total access to do the work. Replace the sub-floor
afterward, install new vinyl or tile, and it's done.

BUT: Someone suggested an interesting alternative: When the vinyl flooring
is removed, drill access holes in the sub-floor and pump the space full of
foam. It's already a form of plastic, so it should form its own vapor
barrier. And, it'll insulate. Progress could be checked via the access slots
in the basement. Makes sense, but there's always a "gotcha".

Your thoughts, please.

Fill crawl space with foam?
 

JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
The dining area of my kitchen is built over a crawl space that's enclosed by
cinder blocks like the rest of the house. In the basement, there are two
openings to this crawl space, but they're only 6" high x 18" wide. I assume
they were put there for ventilation purposes, since they're useless for
anything else. The area in question juts out from the main kitchen, and is
12x12 feet.

In winter, the floor is ice cold, so that dining area is useless. I believe
the traditional first step for dealing with this is to lay a plastic vapor
barrier on the soil underneath, followed by fiberglass insulation. The vinyl
flooring needs replacement, so I could also rip up the wood underneath in
that area and have total access to do the work. Replace the sub-floor
afterward, install new vinyl or tile, and it's done.

BUT: Someone suggested an interesting alternative: When the vinyl flooring
is removed, drill access holes in the sub-floor and pump the space full of
foam. It's already a form of plastic, so it should form its own vapor
barrier. And, it'll insulate. Progress could be checked via the access slots
in the basement. Makes sense, but there's always a "gotcha".

Your thoughts, please.

Did you know that termites find that foam is a perfect pathway to
get to what they like to eat without being seen? They just love
it and it is so easy to make their little tunnels through, that
you probably won't even notice anything until the floor falls
through.


--
Robert Allison
Rimshot, Inc.
Georgetown, TX

Fill crawl space with foam?
 

"Robert Allison" wrote in message
news:AyAxj.42589$R_5.32151@trnddc08...
JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
The dining area of my kitchen is built over a crawl space that's enclosed
by cinder blocks like the rest of the house. In the basement, there are
two openings to this crawl space, but they're only 6" high x 18" wide. I
assume they were put there for ventilation purposes, since they're
useless for anything else. The area in question juts out from the main
kitchen, and is 12x12 feet.

In winter, the floor is ice cold, so that dining area is useless. I
believe the traditional first step for dealing with this is to lay a
plastic vapor barrier on the soil underneath, followed by fiberglass
insulation. The vinyl flooring needs replacement, so I could also rip up
the wood underneath in that area and have total access to do the work.
Replace the sub-floor afterward, install new vinyl or tile, and it's
done.

BUT: Someone suggested an interesting alternative: When the vinyl
flooring is removed, drill access holes in the sub-floor and pump the
space full of foam. It's already a form of plastic, so it should form its
own vapor barrier. And, it'll insulate. Progress could be checked via the
access slots in the basement. Makes sense, but there's always a "gotcha".

Your thoughts, please.

Did you know that termites find that foam is a perfect pathway to get to
what they like to eat without being seen? They just love it and it is so
easy to make their little tunnels through, that you probably won't even
notice anything until the floor falls through.


That's a sobering thought. Does this also apply to the foam sometimes used
in small amounts to insulate crevices around doorways & windows?

Fill crawl space with foam?
 

Here's another thought. (oh and btw, i don't see where a cold floor makes a
room useless). Put a heating duct into the crawl space and there, you have
radiant heat on the floor. Done.

s


"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message
...
The dining area of my kitchen is built over a crawl space that's enclosed
by cinder blocks like the rest of the house. In the basement, there are
two openings to this crawl space, but they're only 6" high x 18" wide. I
assume they were put there for ventilation purposes, since they're useless
for anything else. The area in question juts out from the main kitchen,
and is 12x12 feet.

In winter, the floor is ice cold, so that dining area is useless. I
believe the traditional first step for dealing with this is to lay a
plastic vapor barrier on the soil underneath, followed by fiberglass
insulation. The vinyl flooring needs replacement, so I could also rip up
the wood underneath in that area and have total access to do the work.
Replace the sub-floor afterward, install new vinyl or tile, and it's done.

BUT: Someone suggested an interesting alternative: When the vinyl
flooring is removed, drill access holes in the sub-floor and pump the
space full of foam. It's already a form of plastic, so it should form its
own vapor barrier. And, it'll insulate. Progress could be checked via the
access slots in the basement. Makes sense, but there's always a "gotcha".

Your thoughts, please.

Fill crawl space with foam?
 

"S. Barker" wrote in message
...
"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message
...
The dining area of my kitchen is built over a crawl space that's enclosed
by cinder blocks like the rest of the house. In the basement, there are
two openings to this crawl space, but they're only 6" high x 18" wide. I
assume they were put there for ventilation purposes, since they're
useless for anything else. The area in question juts out from the main
kitchen, and is 12x12 feet.

In winter, the floor is ice cold, so that dining area is useless. I
believe the traditional first step for dealing with this is to lay a
plastic vapor barrier on the soil underneath, followed by fiberglass
insulation. The vinyl flooring needs replacement, so I could also rip up
the wood underneath in that area and have total access to do the work.
Replace the sub-floor afterward, install new vinyl or tile, and it's
done.

BUT: Someone suggested an interesting alternative: When the vinyl
flooring is removed, drill access holes in the sub-floor and pump the
space full of foam. It's already a form of plastic, so it should form its
own vapor barrier. And, it'll insulate. Progress could be checked via the
access slots in the basement. Makes sense, but there's always a "gotcha".

Your thoughts, please.


Here's another thought. (oh and btw, i don't see where a cold floor makes
a room useless). Put a heating duct into the crawl space and there, you
have radiant heat on the floor. Done.


I'm not talkin' chilly. I mean "Holy **** - you could freeze fish fillets on
this floor."

Fill crawl space with foam?
 

JoeSpareBedroom wrote:

"Robert Allison" wrote in message
news:AyAxj.42589$R_5.32151@trnddc08...

JoeSpareBedroom wrote:

The dining area of my kitchen is built over a crawl space that's enclosed
by cinder blocks like the rest of the house. In the basement, there are
two openings to this crawl space, but they're only 6" high x 18" wide. I
assume they were put there for ventilation purposes, since they're
useless for anything else. The area in question juts out from the main
kitchen, and is 12x12 feet.

In winter, the floor is ice cold, so that dining area is useless. I
believe the traditional first step for dealing with this is to lay a
plastic vapor barrier on the soil underneath, followed by fiberglass
insulation. The vinyl flooring needs replacement, so I could also rip up
the wood underneath in that area and have total access to do the work.
Replace the sub-floor afterward, install new vinyl or tile, and it's
done.

BUT: Someone suggested an interesting alternative: When the vinyl
flooring is removed, drill access holes in the sub-floor and pump the
space full of foam. It's already a form of plastic, so it should form its
own vapor barrier. And, it'll insulate. Progress could be checked via the
access slots in the basement. Makes sense, but there's always a "gotcha".

Your thoughts, please.

Did you know that termites find that foam is a perfect pathway to get to
what they like to eat without being seen? They just love it and it is so
easy to make their little tunnels through, that you probably won't even
notice anything until the floor falls through.



That's a sobering thought. Does this also apply to the foam sometimes used
in small amounts to insulate crevices around doorways & windows?

Expanding foam, foam board, spray foam, all of it. There is a
reason that code requires it to be kept 6" from grade.


--
Robert Allison
Rimshot, Inc.
Georgetown, TX

Fill crawl space with foam?
 

As to your original problem, you should just install fiberglass
batt insulation between the floor joists. That would go a ways
towards eliminating any coldness from the floor. BUT, the floor
is most likely not the problem as it is rare that a floor will
allow a room to become too cold. Most heat loss is from the
walls, ceiling, and especially windows. I will bet that this
alcove has windows on three sides, doesn't it?

--
Robert Allison
Rimshot, Inc.
Georgetown, TX

Fill crawl space with foam?
 

On Feb 28, 1:15 pm, Robert Allison wrote:

Expanding foam, foam board, spray foam, all of it. There is a
reason that code requires it to be kept 6" from grade.


Interesting. Any time the topic of basement wall insulation comes up,
there are always suggestions to use foam board.

Fill crawl space with foam?
 

"Robert Allison" wrote in message
news:TWCxj.34462$6h7.32075@trnddc04...
As to your original problem, you should just install fiberglass batt
insulation between the floor joists. That would go a ways towards
eliminating any coldness from the floor. BUT, the floor is most likely
not the problem as it is rare that a floor will allow a room to become too
cold. Most heat loss is from the walls, ceiling, and especially windows.
I will bet that this alcove has windows on three sides, doesn't it?

--
Robert Allison
Rimshot, Inc.
Georgetown, TX


One wall's got the garage on the other side. Viewed from the garage side,
the whole wall consists of some sort of masonry. (firebreak?) The other two
walls each have a window. In the attic, there's plenty of fiberglass over
the ceiling. It's a 1956 house, though, so the socks I'm wearing are
probably thicker than what's in the walls.

Fill crawl space with foam?
 

Robert Allison wrote:
As to your original problem, you should just install fiberglass batt
insulation between the floor joists. That would go a ways towards
eliminating any coldness from the floor. BUT, the floor is most likely
not the problem as it is rare that a floor will allow a room to become
too cold. Most heat loss is from the walls, ceiling, and especially
windows. I will bet that this alcove has windows on three sides,
doesn't it?

Didn't follow the whole thread, but particularly if the crawl space is
ventilated and the floor is solid, I can see it being a significant heat
loss component.

The hADt term doesn't care in which direction dT is... :)

--

Fill crawl space with foam?
 

On Feb 28, 6:34 am, "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote:
The dining area of my kitchen is built over a crawl space that's enclosed by
cinder blocks like the rest of the house. In the basement, there are two
openings to this crawl space, but they're only 6" high x 18" wide. I assume
they were put there for ventilation purposes, since they're useless for
anything else. The area in question juts out from the main kitchen, and is
12x12 feet.

In winter, the floor is ice cold, so that dining area is useless. I believe
the traditional first step for dealing with this is to lay a plastic vapor
barrier on the soil underneath, followed by fiberglass insulation. The vinyl
flooring needs replacement, so I could also rip up the wood underneath in
that area and have total access to do the work. Replace the sub-floor
afterward, install new vinyl or tile, and it's done.

BUT: Someone suggested an interesting alternative: When the vinyl flooring
is removed, drill access holes in the sub-floor and pump the space full of
foam. It's already a form of plastic, so it should form its own vapor
barrier. And, it'll insulate. Progress could be checked via the access slots
in the basement. Makes sense, but there's always a "gotcha".

Your thoughts, please.

Joe-

Cut out a couple more cinder blocks to get proper (temporary) access
to the space.

I assume that once through the block there's enough room to work?

Install fiber glass roll (cut to fit) with vapor barrier up (if you're
in a heating climate, which sounds like you are)

The foam sounds like a quick & easy way to do the job but process
control would be tough and having the foam bridging from soil to floor
would be asking for trouble (sub type termites)

A 12 x 12 space wouldn't take much time or $'s to fiberglass if you
had a helper cutting & supplying material......but filling it
completely with foam would be pretty expensive

cheers
Bob

Fill crawl space with foam?
 

"BobK207" wrote in message
...
On Feb 28, 6:34 am, "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote:
The dining area of my kitchen is built over a crawl space that's enclosed
by
cinder blocks like the rest of the house. In the basement, there are two
openings to this crawl space, but they're only 6" high x 18" wide. I
assume
they were put there for ventilation purposes, since they're useless for
anything else. The area in question juts out from the main kitchen, and
is
12x12 feet.

In winter, the floor is ice cold, so that dining area is useless. I
believe
the traditional first step for dealing with this is to lay a plastic
vapor
barrier on the soil underneath, followed by fiberglass insulation. The
vinyl
flooring needs replacement, so I could also rip up the wood underneath in
that area and have total access to do the work. Replace the sub-floor
afterward, install new vinyl or tile, and it's done.

BUT: Someone suggested an interesting alternative: When the vinyl
flooring
is removed, drill access holes in the sub-floor and pump the space full
of
foam. It's already a form of plastic, so it should form its own vapor
barrier. And, it'll insulate. Progress could be checked via the access
slots
in the basement. Makes sense, but there's always a "gotcha".

Your thoughts, please.

Joe-

Cut out a couple more cinder blocks to get proper (temporary) access
to the space.

I assume that once through the block there's enough room to work?


There's only about 18-24" from the beams down to the dirt. That would mean
hugging the fiberglass the whole time. No thanks. I'd rather do it from
above.






Install fiber glass roll (cut to fit) with vapor barrier up (if you're
in a heating climate, which sounds like you are)

The foam sounds like a quick & easy way to do the job but process
control would be tough and having the foam bridging from soil to floor
would be asking for trouble (sub type termites)

A 12 x 12 space wouldn't take much time or $'s to fiberglass if you
had a helper cutting & supplying material......but filling it
completely with foam would be pretty expensive

cheers
Bob

Fill crawl space with foam?
 

Have you priced out the foam vs fiberglass? You'll need a mortgage for the
foam. The latter will be pocket change.

Fill crawl space with foam?
 

On Feb 28, 8:34 am, "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote:
The dining area of my kitchen is built over a crawl space that's enclosed by
cinder blocks like the rest of the house. In the basement, there are two
openings to this crawl space, but they're only 6" high x 18" wide. I assume
they were put there for ventilation purposes, since they're useless for
anything else. The area in question juts out from the main kitchen, and is
12x12 feet.

In winter, the floor is ice cold, so that dining area is useless. I believe
the traditional first step for dealing with this is to lay a plastic vapor
barrier on the soil underneath, followed by fiberglass insulation. The vinyl
flooring needs replacement, so I could also rip up the wood underneath in
that area and have total access to do the work. Replace the sub-floor
afterward, install new vinyl or tile, and it's done.

BUT: Someone suggested an interesting alternative: When the vinyl flooring
is removed, drill access holes in the sub-floor and pump the space full of
foam. It's already a form of plastic, so it should form its own vapor
barrier. And, it'll insulate. Progress could be checked via the access slots
in the basement. Makes sense, but there's always a "gotcha".

Your thoughts, please.

The spray foam I have seen applied is sprayed from a gun much like an
airless paint sprayer sprays paint. You aim the gun at a surface from
a fixed distance--about 12" is what I have seen--, be it a rim joist
or wall sheathing or whatever, press the trigger, and it adheres to
the surface and expands. I have never seen a foam application where
you could pump it into a hole with any kind of predictable results.

If you could get in there enough to install some sort of sheet
material (plywood, foamboard or the like) or even netting onto the
underside of the floor joists, you could blow dense pack cellulose
from the top through little holes in the subfloor.

The other alternative would be to figure out a way to insulate the
stem walls, and then pump heat in there.

Fill crawl space with foam?
 

On Feb 28, 7:57�pm, marson wrote:
On Feb 28, 8:34 am, "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote:





The dining area of my kitchen is built over a crawl space that's enclosed by
cinder blocks like the rest of the house. In the basement, there are two
openings to this crawl space, but they're only 6" high x 18" wide. I assume
they were put there for ventilation purposes, since they're useless for
anything else. The area in question juts out from the main kitchen, and is
12x12 feet.

In winter, the floor is ice cold, so that dining area is useless. I believe
the traditional first step for dealing with this is to lay a plastic vapor
barrier on the soil underneath, followed by fiberglass insulation. The vinyl
flooring needs replacement, so I could also rip up the wood underneath in
that area and have total access to do the work. Replace the sub-floor
afterward, install new vinyl or tile, and it's done.

BUT: Someone suggested an interesting alternative: �When the vinyl flooring
is removed, drill access holes in the sub-floor and pump the space full of
foam. It's already a form of plastic, so it should form its own vapor
barrier. And, it'll insulate. Progress could be checked via the access slots
in the basement. Makes sense, but there's always a "gotcha".

Your thoughts, please.

The spray foam I have seen applied is sprayed from a gun much like an
airless paint sprayer sprays paint. �You aim the gun at a surface from
a fixed distance--about 12" is what I have seen--, be it a rim joist
or wall sheathing or whatever, press the trigger, and it adheres to
the surface and expands. �I have never seen a foam application where
you could pump it into a hole with any kind of predictable results.

If you could get in there enough to install some sort of sheet
material (plywood, foamboard or the like) or even netting onto the
underside of the floor joists, you could blow dense pack cellulose
from the top through little holes in the subfloor.

The other alternative would be to figure out a way to insulate the
stem walls, and then pump heat in there.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

closed cell foam is more expensive but unaffected by moisture, which
is why its used. wet fiberglass or cellouse has near zero insulation
value. plus foam fills all the little holes and voids. so it also
stops drafts.....

makes for quiet warm area........

Fill crawl space with foam?
 

JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
"BobK207" wrote in message
...
On Feb 28, 6:34 am, "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote:
The dining area of my kitchen is built over a crawl space that's enclosed
by
cinder blocks like the rest of the house. In the basement, there are two
openings to this crawl space, but they're only 6" high x 18" wide. I
assume
they were put there for ventilation purposes, since they're useless for
anything else. The area in question juts out from the main kitchen, and
is
12x12 feet.

In winter, the floor is ice cold, so that dining area is useless. I
believe
the traditional first step for dealing with this is to lay a plastic
vapor
barrier on the soil underneath, followed by fiberglass insulation. The
vinyl
flooring needs replacement, so I could also rip up the wood underneath in
that area and have total access to do the work. Replace the sub-floor
afterward, install new vinyl or tile, and it's done.

BUT: Someone suggested an interesting alternative: When the vinyl
flooring
is removed, drill access holes in the sub-floor and pump the space full
of
foam. It's already a form of plastic, so it should form its own vapor
barrier. And, it'll insulate. Progress could be checked via the access
slots
in the basement. Makes sense, but there's always a "gotcha".

Your thoughts, please.
Joe-

Cut out a couple more cinder blocks to get proper (temporary) access
to the space.

I assume that once through the block there's enough room to work?


There's only about 18-24" from the beams down to the dirt. That would mean
hugging the fiberglass the whole time. No thanks. I'd rather do it from
above.



I'm with you- I hate crawlspaces, especially shallow ones. Almost
didn't buy this place because of the (thankfully deep) crawl under the
addition, but talked myself into it because of the low price and basic
good condition of everything else. I really need to wall-insulate my
crawl down to the footer, but the access hole is borderline for my
oversize body. And natch, although the addition is badly designed, the
poured-wall foundation is done quite well. Replacing that
installed-backwards basement window that is the only access from outside
would cost me several hundred for concrete cutting, just like the hole I
had to pay for from original basement to extend HVAC out here and get
rid of wall furnace.

aem sends...

Fill crawl space with foam?
 

On Feb 28, 7:40 pm, " wrote:
On Feb 28, 7:57�pm, marson wrote:



On Feb 28, 8:34 am, "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote:

The dining area of my kitchen is built over a crawl space that's enclosed by
cinder blocks like the rest of the house. In the basement, there are two
openings to this crawl space, but they're only 6" high x 18" wide. I assume
they were put there for ventilation purposes, since they're useless for
anything else. The area in question juts out from the main kitchen, and is
12x12 feet.

In winter, the floor is ice cold, so that dining area is useless. I believe
the traditional first step for dealing with this is to lay a plastic vapor
barrier on the soil underneath, followed by fiberglass insulation. The vinyl
flooring needs replacement, so I could also rip up the wood underneath in
that area and have total access to do the work. Replace the sub-floor
afterward, install new vinyl or tile, and it's done.

BUT: Someone suggested an interesting alternative: �When the vinyl flooring
is removed, drill access holes in the sub-floor and pump the space full of
foam. It's already a form of plastic, so it should form its own vapor
barrier. And, it'll insulate. Progress could be checked via the access slots
in the basement. Makes sense, but there's always a "gotcha".

Your thoughts, please.

The spray foam I have seen applied is sprayed from a gun much like an
airless paint sprayer sprays paint. �You aim the gun at a surface from
a fixed distance--about 12" is what I have seen--, be it a rim joist
or wall sheathing or whatever, press the trigger, and it adheres to
the surface and expands. �I have never seen a foam application where
you could pump it into a hole with any kind of predictable results.

If you could get in there enough to install some sort of sheet
material (plywood, foamboard or the like) or even netting onto the
underside of the floor joists, you could blow dense pack cellulose
from the top through little holes in the subfloor.

The other alternative would be to figure out a way to insulate the
stem walls, and then pump heat in there.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

closed cell foam is more expensive but unaffected by moisture, which
is why its used. wet fiberglass or cellouse has near zero insulation
value. plus foam fills all the little holes and voids. so it also
stops drafts.....

makes for quiet warm area........

I agree that closed cell foam is good stuff. But how do you propose
he pump it through a little hole in the subfloor?

Fill crawl space with foam?
 

On Feb 28, 9:35Â*pm, marson wrote:
On Feb 28, 7:40 pm, " wrote:





On Feb 28, 7:57�pm, marson wrote:

On Feb 28, 8:34 am, "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote:

The dining area of my kitchen is built over a crawl space that's enclosed by
cinder blocks like the rest of the house. In the basement, there are two
openings to this crawl space, but they're only 6" high x 18" wide. I assume
they were put there for ventilation purposes, since they're useless for
anything else. The area in question juts out from the main kitchen, and is
12x12 feet.

In winter, the floor is ice cold, so that dining area is useless. I believe
the traditional first step for dealing with this is to lay a plastic vapor
barrier on the soil underneath, followed by fiberglass insulation. The vinyl
flooring needs replacement, so I could also rip up the wood underneath in
that area and have total access to do the work. Replace the sub-floor
afterward, install new vinyl or tile, and it's done.

BUT: Someone suggested an interesting alternative: �When the vinyl flooring
is removed, drill access holes in the sub-floor and pump the space full of
foam. It's already a form of plastic, so it should form its own vapor
barrier. And, it'll insulate. Progress could be checked via the access slots
in the basement. Makes sense, but there's always a "gotcha".

Your thoughts, please.

The spray foam I have seen applied is sprayed from a gun much like an
airless paint sprayer sprays paint. �You aim the gun at a surface from
a fixed distance--about 12" is what I have seen--, be it a rim joist
or wall sheathing or whatever, press the trigger, and it adheres to
the surface and expands. �I have never seen a foam application where
you could pump it into a hole with any kind of predictable results.

If you could get in there enough to install some sort of sheet
material (plywood, foamboard or the like) or even netting onto the
underside of the floor joists, you could blow dense pack cellulose
from the top through little holes in the subfloor.

The other alternative would be to figure out a way to insulate the
stem walls, and then pump heat in there.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

closed cell foam is more expensive but unaffected by moisture, which
is why its used. wet fiberglass or cellouse Â*has near zero insulation
value. plus foam fills all the little holes and voids. so it also
stops drafts.....

makes for quiet warm area........

I agree that closed cell foam is good stuff. Â*But how do you propose
he pump it through a little hole in the subfloor?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

theres a minimally expanding type that can go in walls floors etc.

i would probably excevate a trench access. eventually something else
may come up requiring access under there. such access would help home
resale

Fill crawl space with foam?
 

"Robert Allison" wrote in message
Expanding foam, foam board, spray foam, all of it. There is a reason that
code requires it to be kept 6" from grade.


Some of it sold in the south has chemical additives to prevent that. I
forget the additive right now but I think it is a borate or similar.

Fill crawl space with foam?
 

"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message
...
The dining area of my kitchen is built over a crawl space that's enclosed
by cinder blocks like the rest of the house. In the basement, there are
two openings to this crawl space, but they're only 6" high x 18" wide.

Your thoughts, please.


Take a peek here
http://www.basementsystems.com/crawlspace/

They even have a book
http://www.amazon.com/Crawl-Space-Sc...742320?ie=UTF8

It is a more scientific approach than has been done over the years and make
some sense.

Fill crawl space with foam?
 

"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message
...


BUT: Someone suggested an interesting alternative: When the vinyl
flooring is removed, drill access holes in the sub-floor and pump the
space full of foam. It's already a form of plastic, so it should form its
own vapor barrier. And, it'll insulate. Progress could be checked via the
access slots in the basement. Makes sense, but there's always a "gotcha".

Your thoughts, please.



How about Corbond? Since there's access to this area from the basement, it
should be possible to spray the stuff on. Not a DIY job.

www.corbond.com

Fill crawl space with foam?
 

Robert Allison wrote:
JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
The dining area of my kitchen is built over a crawl space that's
enclosed by cinder blocks like the rest of the house. In the basement,
there are two openings to this crawl space, but they're only 6" high x
18" wide. I assume they were put there for ventilation purposes, since
they're useless for anything else. The area in question juts out from
the main kitchen, and is 12x12 feet.

In winter, the floor is ice cold, so that dining area is useless. I
believe the traditional first step for dealing with this is to lay a
plastic vapor barrier on the soil underneath, followed by fiberglass
insulation. The vinyl flooring needs replacement, so I could also rip
up the wood underneath in that area and have total access to do the
work. Replace the sub-floor afterward, install new vinyl or tile, and
it's done.

BUT: Someone suggested an interesting alternative: When the vinyl
flooring is removed, drill access holes in the sub-floor and pump the
space full of foam. It's already a form of plastic, so it should form
its own vapor barrier. And, it'll insulate. Progress could be checked
via the access slots in the basement. Makes sense, but there's always
a "gotcha".

Your thoughts, please.

Did you know that termites find that foam is a perfect pathway to get to
what they like to eat without being seen? They just love it and it is
so easy to make their little tunnels through, that you probably won't
even notice anything until the floor falls through.



If the bugs don't get in the water will and rot everything until the
floor falls through.

LdB

Fill crawl space with foam?
 

On Feb 28, 1:37 pm, "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote:
"BobK207" wrote in message

...



On Feb 28, 6:34 am, "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote:
The dining area of my kitchen is built over a crawl space that's enclosed
by
cinder blocks like the rest of the house. In the basement, there are two
openings to this crawl space, but they're only 6" high x 18" wide. I
assume
they were put there for ventilation purposes, since they're useless for
anything else. The area in question juts out from the main kitchen, and
is
12x12 feet.

In winter, the floor is ice cold, so that dining area is useless. I
believe
the traditional first step for dealing with this is to lay a plastic
vapor
barrier on the soil underneath, followed by fiberglass insulation. The
vinyl
flooring needs replacement, so I could also rip up the wood underneath in
that area and have total access to do the work. Replace the sub-floor
afterward, install new vinyl or tile, and it's done.

BUT: Someone suggested an interesting alternative: When the vinyl
flooring
is removed, drill access holes in the sub-floor and pump the space full
of
foam. It's already a form of plastic, so it should form its own vapor
barrier. And, it'll insulate. Progress could be checked via the access
slots
in the basement. Makes sense, but there's always a "gotcha".

Your thoughts, please.

Joe-

Cut out a couple more cinder blocks to get proper (temporary) access
to the space.

I assume that once through the block there's enough room to work?



Install fiber glass roll (cut to fit) with vapor barrier up (if you're
in a heating climate, which sounds like you are)

The foam sounds like a quick & easy way to do the job but process
control would be tough and having the foam bridging from soil to floor
would be asking for trouble (sub type termites)

A 12 x 12 space wouldn't take much time or $'s to fiberglass if you
had a helper cutting & supplying material......but filling it
completely with foam would be pretty expensive

cheers
Bob


There's only about 18-24" from the beams down to the dirt. That would mean
hugging the fiberglass the whole time. No thanks. I'd rather do it from
above.



Joe-

!8" to 24" is a bunch of crawlspace clearance.

You've only got ~9 joist bays. If you plan the work & lay it out
properly there won't be any "hugging the fiberglass".

Once you have access to the space, the stuff would be up in about an
hour or so..

If don't want to DIY......you could pay someone to install it for
you; you cut, they install.

Still way cheaper than foam.

cheers
Bob

Fill crawl space with foam?
 

On Feb 28, 1:37 pm, "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote:
"BobK207" wrote in message

...



On Feb 28, 6:34 am, "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote:
The dining area of my kitchen is built over a crawl space that's
enclosed
by
cinder blocks like the rest of the house. In the basement, there are
two
openings to this crawl space, but they're only 6" high x 18" wide. I
assume
they were put there for ventilation purposes, since they're useless
for
anything else. The area in question juts out from the main kitchen,
and
is
12x12 feet.

In winter, the floor is ice cold, so that dining area is useless. I
believe
the traditional first step for dealing with this is to lay a plastic
vapor
barrier on the soil underneath, followed by fiberglass insulation. The
vinyl
flooring needs replacement, so I could also rip up the wood underneath
in
that area and have total access to do the work. Replace the sub-floor
afterward, install new vinyl or tile, and it's done.

BUT: Someone suggested an interesting alternative: When the vinyl
flooring
is removed, drill access holes in the sub-floor and pump the space
full
of
foam. It's already a form of plastic, so it should form its own vapor
barrier. And, it'll insulate. Progress could be checked via the access
slots
in the basement. Makes sense, but there's always a "gotcha".

Your thoughts, please.

Joe-

Cut out a couple more cinder blocks to get proper (temporary) access
to the space.

I assume that once through the block there's enough room to work?



Install fiber glass roll (cut to fit) with vapor barrier up (if you're
in a heating climate, which sounds like you are)

The foam sounds like a quick & easy way to do the job but process
control would be tough and having the foam bridging from soil to floor
would be asking for trouble (sub type termites)

A 12 x 12 space wouldn't take much time or $'s to fiberglass if you
had a helper cutting & supplying material......but filling it
completely with foam would be pretty expensive

cheers
Bob


There's only about 18-24" from the beams down to the dirt. That would
mean
hugging the fiberglass the whole time. No thanks. I'd rather do it from
above.

From above, along one of the outside walls, across the ends of the joists,
cut a two foot strip out of the floor, then you can drop underneath and put
fiberglass batts between each joist. You can then roll a sheet of plastic
out and staple it to the bottom off the joists.

Fill crawl space with foam?
 

theres a minimally expanding type that can go in walls floors etc.



I haven't heard of it, but maybe I should have. What is it, and how
is it applied? Do you have a website or something you can refer me to?

Fill crawl space with foam?
 

"BobK207" wrote in message
...
On Feb 28, 1:37 pm, "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote:
"BobK207" wrote in message

...



On Feb 28, 6:34 am, "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote:
The dining area of my kitchen is built over a crawl space that's
enclosed
by
cinder blocks like the rest of the house. In the basement, there are
two
openings to this crawl space, but they're only 6" high x 18" wide. I
assume
they were put there for ventilation purposes, since they're useless
for
anything else. The area in question juts out from the main kitchen,
and
is
12x12 feet.

In winter, the floor is ice cold, so that dining area is useless. I
believe
the traditional first step for dealing with this is to lay a plastic
vapor
barrier on the soil underneath, followed by fiberglass insulation. The
vinyl
flooring needs replacement, so I could also rip up the wood underneath
in
that area and have total access to do the work. Replace the sub-floor
afterward, install new vinyl or tile, and it's done.

BUT: Someone suggested an interesting alternative: When the vinyl
flooring
is removed, drill access holes in the sub-floor and pump the space
full
of
foam. It's already a form of plastic, so it should form its own vapor
barrier. And, it'll insulate. Progress could be checked via the access
slots
in the basement. Makes sense, but there's always a "gotcha".

Your thoughts, please.

Joe-

Cut out a couple more cinder blocks to get proper (temporary) access
to the space.

I assume that once through the block there's enough room to work?



Install fiber glass roll (cut to fit) with vapor barrier up (if you're
in a heating climate, which sounds like you are)

The foam sounds like a quick & easy way to do the job but process
control would be tough and having the foam bridging from soil to floor
would be asking for trouble (sub type termites)

A 12 x 12 space wouldn't take much time or $'s to fiberglass if you
had a helper cutting & supplying material......but filling it
completely with foam would be pretty expensive

cheers
Bob


There's only about 18-24" from the beams down to the dirt. That would
mean
hugging the fiberglass the whole time. No thanks. I'd rather do it from
above.



Joe-

!8" to 24" is a bunch of crawlspace clearance.

You've only got ~9 joist bays. If you plan the work & lay it out
properly there won't be any "hugging the fiberglass".

Once you have access to the space, the stuff would be up in about an
hour or so..

If don't want to DIY......you could pay someone to install it for
you; you cut, they install.

Still way cheaper than foam.

cheers
Bob


I'm not real keen on removing blocks. The existing slots are in the 2-by
wood which sits on the sill plate.

Fill crawl space with foam?
 

On Feb 29, 6:16�am, marson wrote:
theres a minimally expanding type that can go in walls floors etc.

I haven't heard of it, but maybe I should have. �What is it, and how
is it applied? Do you have a website or something you can refer me to?

spray foam or minimally expanding are usually pro installs, why not
call some local insulating contractors for free estimates.

will look for minimial expanding websites.

they use heated guns and such to install, thats why it generally a pro
install

Fill crawl space with foam?
 

On 2008-02-29, Calab wrote:

You can then roll a sheet of plastic
out and staple it to the bottom off the joists.

In a heating climate, that would be unwise--the vapor barrier goes on
the warm side of the surface.

Wayne

Fill crawl space with foam?
 

"Wayne Whitney" wrote in message
...
On 2008-02-29, Calab wrote:

You can then roll a sheet of plastic
out and staple it to the bottom off the joists.

In a heating climate, that would be unwise--the vapor barrier goes on
the warm side of the surface.

Wayne


Not on the soil underneath, assuming there was a way to seal the edges where
the barrier met the cinder blocks?

Fill crawl space with foam?
 

On Feb 28, 1:40 pm, wrote:

Expanding foam, foam board, spray foam, all of it. There is a
reason that code requires it to be kept 6" from grade.

Interesting. Any time the topic of basement wall insulation comes up,
there are always suggestions to use foam board.

Very different application.

The termites that were eating my basement would disagree. Of course,
they didn't bother pulling permits for their demolition.

Fill crawl space with foam?
 

On Feb 28, 7:57*pm, marson wrote:
On Feb 28, 8:34 am, "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote:





The dining area of my kitchen is built over a crawl space that's enclosed by
cinder blocks like the rest of the house. In the basement, there are two
openings to this crawl space, but they're only 6" high x 18" wide. I assume
they were put there for ventilation purposes, since they're useless for
anything else. The area in question juts out from the main kitchen, and is
12x12 feet.

In winter, the floor is ice cold, so that dining area is useless. I believe
the traditional first step for dealing with this is to lay a plastic vapor
barrier on the soil underneath, followed by fiberglass insulation. The vinyl
flooring needs replacement, so I could also rip up the wood underneath in
that area and have total access to do the work. Replace the sub-floor
afterward, install new vinyl or tile, and it's done.

BUT: Someone suggested an interesting alternative: *When the vinyl flooring
is removed, drill access holes in the sub-floor and pump the space full of
foam. It's already a form of plastic, so it should form its own vapor
barrier. And, it'll insulate. Progress could be checked via the access slots
in the basement. Makes sense, but there's always a "gotcha".

Your thoughts, please.

The spray foam I have seen applied is sprayed from a gun much like an
airless paint sprayer sprays paint. *You aim the gun at a surface from
a fixed distance--about 12" is what I have seen--, be it a rim joist
or wall sheathing or whatever, press the trigger, and it adheres to
the surface and expands. *I have never seen a foam application where
you could pump it into a hole with any kind of predictable results.

If you could get in there enough to install some sort of sheet
material (plywood, foamboard or the like) or even netting onto the
underside of the floor joists, you could blow dense pack cellulose
from the top through little holes in the subfloor.

The other alternative would be to figure out a way to insulate the
stem walls, and then pump heat in there.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Since you said that removing the sub-floor is not out of the question,
you could...

- Remove the sub-floor
- Crawl underneath and attach 1 x 2's perpendicular to the joists
- Lay plywood strips on these supports, forming a "floor' in each
cavity
- Spray expanding foam insulation in each joist space - the kind you
see used on TOH.
- Replace sub and finish floor
- Save the wooly socks for sledding

Fill crawl space with foam?
 

"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...
On Feb 28, 7:57 pm, marson wrote:
On Feb 28, 8:34 am, "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote:





The dining area of my kitchen is built over a crawl space that's
enclosed by
cinder blocks like the rest of the house. In the basement, there are two
openings to this crawl space, but they're only 6" high x 18" wide. I
assume
they were put there for ventilation purposes, since they're useless for
anything else. The area in question juts out from the main kitchen, and
is
12x12 feet.

In winter, the floor is ice cold, so that dining area is useless. I
believe
the traditional first step for dealing with this is to lay a plastic
vapor
barrier on the soil underneath, followed by fiberglass insulation. The
vinyl
flooring needs replacement, so I could also rip up the wood underneath
in
that area and have total access to do the work. Replace the sub-floor
afterward, install new vinyl or tile, and it's done.

BUT: Someone suggested an interesting alternative: When the vinyl
flooring
is removed, drill access holes in the sub-floor and pump the space full
of
foam. It's already a form of plastic, so it should form its own vapor
barrier. And, it'll insulate. Progress could be checked via the access
slots
in the basement. Makes sense, but there's always a "gotcha".

Your thoughts, please.

The spray foam I have seen applied is sprayed from a gun much like an
airless paint sprayer sprays paint. You aim the gun at a surface from
a fixed distance--about 12" is what I have seen--, be it a rim joist
or wall sheathing or whatever, press the trigger, and it adheres to
the surface and expands. I have never seen a foam application where
you could pump it into a hole with any kind of predictable results.

If you could get in there enough to install some sort of sheet
material (plywood, foamboard or the like) or even netting onto the
underside of the floor joists, you could blow dense pack cellulose
from the top through little holes in the subfloor.

The other alternative would be to figure out a way to insulate the
stem walls, and then pump heat in there.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Since you said that removing the sub-floor is not out of the question,
you could...

- Remove the sub-floor
- Crawl underneath and attach 1 x 2's perpendicular to the joists
- Lay plywood strips on these supports, forming a "floor' in each
cavity
- Spray expanding foam insulation in each joist space - the kind you
see used on TOH.
- Replace sub and finish floor
- Save the wooly socks for sledding

==================


Wouldn't I still need a plastic vapor barrier right on top of the soil? It's
cheap enough....

On the other hand, this crawl space is bone-dry.

Fill crawl space with foam?
 

On Feb 28, 4:37*pm, "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote:
There's only about 18-24" from the beams down to the dirt. That would mean
hugging the fiberglass the whole time. No thanks. I'd rather do it from
above.

So instead of putting up with a cramped space for 30 minutes or so,
you'd rather tear the entire subfloor out, which presumably doesn't
need replacing? You do realize the price of lumber these days, right?

Heck you don't even need to go in there if you've got the right kind
of "poker stick" to maneuver the batts into place on the floor. I
insulated most of my attic from the catwalk using a garden rake to
slide the batts into place.

Fill crawl space with foam?
 

wrote in message
...
On Feb 28, 4:37 pm, "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote:
There's only about 18-24" from the beams down to the dirt. That would mean
hugging the fiberglass the whole time. No thanks. I'd rather do it from
above.

So instead of putting up with a cramped space for 30 minutes or so,
you'd rather tear the entire subfloor out, which presumably doesn't
need replacing? You do realize the price of lumber these days, right?

Heck you don't even need to go in there if you've got the right kind
of "poker stick" to maneuver the batts into place on the floor. I
insulated most of my attic from the catwalk using a garden rake to
slide the batts into place.


=================


It's not the cramped space that bothers me. It's getting way too intimate
with fiberglass bats, no matter much protective clothing I'm wearing. Is
this the reason you used a rake to push your insulation into place?

Fill crawl space with foam?
 

On 2008-02-29, JoeSpareBedroom wrote:

It's not the cramped space that bothers me. It's getting way too intimate
with fiberglass bats, no matter much protective clothing I'm wearing.

There are alternatives to fiberglasss for batt insulation, like cotton
or mineral wool.

Wayne

Fill crawl space with foam?
 

On 2008-02-29, JoeSpareBedroom wrote:

In a heating climate . . . the vapor barrier goes on the warm side
of the surface.

Not on the soil underneath, assuming there was a way to seal the
edges where the barrier met the cinder blocks?

Well, a few comments:

A vapor barrier in the floor system is to keep warm moist air from
migrating into the crawl space, condensing there, and causing the
usual problems of unwanted water. This should definitely be on the
warm side of the insulation; otherwise water vapor will travel through
the insulation, cooling as it does, and condense in the insulation,
where it would be trapped by the vapor barrier underneath.

A vapor barrier on the soil is to keep moisture in the earth from
rising into the crawl space. So it serves a different purpose. If
you have a vapor barrier in the floor system, I'm not clear on whether
having one on the soil would cause any problems. I'm just wondering
how any vapor in the crawl space would actually escape? I guess if
the crawl space walls have no vapor barrier, it can escape through
that.

Lastly, I believe that a vapor barrier, unlike an air barrier, doesn't
need to be perfect to be effective. I believe that have a 95% vapor
barrier will give you 95% of the benefit. With an air barrier, any
wind would drive the air infiltration through the remaining 5%, giving
you less than 95% of the benefit. Hopefully someone else can verify
that my recollection in this regard is correct. :-)

Cheers, Wayne

Fill crawl space with foam?
 

"Wayne Whitney" wrote in message
...
On 2008-02-29, JoeSpareBedroom wrote:

In a heating climate . . . the vapor barrier goes on the warm side
of the surface.

Not on the soil underneath, assuming there was a way to seal the
edges where the barrier met the cinder blocks?

Well, a few comments:

A vapor barrier in the floor system is to keep warm moist air from
migrating into the crawl space, condensing there, and causing the
usual problems of unwanted water. This should definitely be on the
warm side of the insulation; otherwise water vapor will travel through
the insulation, cooling as it does, and condense in the insulation,
where it would be trapped by the vapor barrier underneath.

A vapor barrier on the soil is to keep moisture in the earth from
rising into the crawl space. So it serves a different purpose. If
you have a vapor barrier in the floor system, I'm not clear on whether
having one on the soil would cause any problems. I'm just wondering
how any vapor in the crawl space would actually escape? I guess if
the crawl space walls have no vapor barrier, it can escape through
that.

Lastly, I believe that a vapor barrier, unlike an air barrier, doesn't
need to be perfect to be effective. I believe that have a 95% vapor
barrier will give you 95% of the benefit. With an air barrier, any
wind would drive the air infiltration through the remaining 5%, giving
you less than 95% of the benefit. Hopefully someone else can verify
that my recollection in this regard is correct. :-)

Cheers, Wayne



All these unknowns! I have an idea that'll make this part of the kitchen
really unique. It'll be obscenely expensive. I'll redesign the floor so it
consists of four hinged 6x6 hatches, with hardware as shown below, for
lifting the hatches. If one insulation method doesn't work, I'll have easy
access for trying another, and another...endlessly. Maybe I'll use teak.

http://www.jamestowndistributors.com...-+Lifting+Ring

Fill crawl space with foam?
 

JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Feb 28, 4:37 pm, "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote:

There's only about 18-24" from the beams down to the dirt. That would mean
hugging the fiberglass the whole time. No thanks. I'd rather do it from
above.


So instead of putting up with a cramped space for 30 minutes or so,
you'd rather tear the entire subfloor out, which presumably doesn't
need replacing? You do realize the price of lumber these days, right?

Heck you don't even need to go in there if you've got the right kind
of "poker stick" to maneuver the batts into place on the floor. I
insulated most of my attic from the catwalk using a garden rake to
slide the batts into place.


=================


It's not the cramped space that bothers me. It's getting way too intimate
with fiberglass bats, no matter much protective clothing I'm wearing. Is
this the reason you used a rake to push your insulation into place?



Perhaps you should go with encapsulated insulation. The only
thing you will touch is plastic, unless you cut it.

http://www.specjm.com/residential/in...capsulated.asp

--
Robert Allison
Rimshot, Inc.
Georgetown, TX

Fill crawl space with foam?
 

"Robert Allison" wrote in message
news:8m_xj.868$e_.598@trnddc03...
JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Feb 28, 4:37 pm, "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote:

There's only about 18-24" from the beams down to the dirt. That would
mean
hugging the fiberglass the whole time. No thanks. I'd rather do it from
above.


So instead of putting up with a cramped space for 30 minutes or so,
you'd rather tear the entire subfloor out, which presumably doesn't
need replacing? You do realize the price of lumber these days, right?

Heck you don't even need to go in there if you've got the right kind
of "poker stick" to maneuver the batts into place on the floor. I
insulated most of my attic from the catwalk using a garden rake to
slide the batts into place.


=================


It's not the cramped space that bothers me. It's getting way too intimate
with fiberglass bats, no matter much protective clothing I'm wearing. Is
this the reason you used a rake to push your insulation into place?

Perhaps you should go with encapsulated insulation. The only thing you
will touch is plastic, unless you cut it.

http://www.specjm.com/residential/in...capsulated.asp


It's not gonna happen. No matter what type I use, it would still involve
removing cinder blocks. No way in hell I'm doing that.

Fill crawl space with foam?
 

On Feb 29, 3:14 pm, "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote:
"Robert Allison" wrote in message

news:8m_xj.868$e_.598@trnddc03...



JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Feb 28, 4:37 pm, "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote:

There's only about 18-24" from the beams down to the dirt. That would
mean
hugging the fiberglass the whole time. No thanks. I'd rather do it from
above.

So instead of putting up with a cramped space for 30 minutes or so,
you'd rather tear the entire subfloor out, which presumably doesn't
need replacing? You do realize the price of lumber these days, right?

Heck you don't even need to go in there if you've got the right kind
of "poker stick" to maneuver the batts into place on the floor. I
insulated most of my attic from the catwalk using a garden rake to
slide the batts into place.

=================

It's not the cramped space that bothers me. It's getting way too intimate
with fiberglass bats, no matter much protective clothing I'm wearing. Is
this the reason you used a rake to push your insulation into place?

Perhaps you should go with encapsulated insulation. The only thing you
will touch is plastic, unless you cut it.

http://www.specjm.com/residential/in...capsulated.asp

It's not gonna happen. No matter what type I use, it would still involve
removing cinder blocks. No way in hell I'm doing that.

Well it comes down to how much you want to spend. Fiberglass is cheap
and probably the least effective insulation out there, but possible
for a DIYer to accomplish. Removing blocks is no big deal, or you
could even cut a single access panel from the top. Much, much, much
easier than removing and replacing a subfloor. Fiberglass isn't as
itchy as it used to be. I install it several times a year, and I
don't have a problem with itchiness or whatever. I just wear a paper
dust mask. If you want to look into foam, get some contractors to
look at it. And unless you have a lot of foam contractors in your
area in stiff competition, duct tape your jaw up when he gives you the
estimate so that you don't hurt it when it drops to the floor when you
see the price for insulating a crawl with it. One poster suggested
that you install a layer of plywood on the bottom of the joists and
spray foam on that. That would be pretty ineffective UNLESS you fill
the space completely. That isn't how the foam contractors I have been
around operate. They can do it with multiple applications of foam,
but open your wallet. Several people have stated that there is a
minimally expanding foam that you can pump in there. Filling the
whole space to the dirt is a nutty idea. Perhaps if you could install
plywood on the bottom of the joists, but if a system exists like this
exists, but it is brand new, and I can say for sure that it isn't
available in my area, a city of about 100,000. I'd still be
interested in information about this method. Personally, I think
cellulose is a better option. If you have so much moisture in that
crawl space that the insulation is going to be soaked, then you have
much bigger problems--and if you use foam, your joists are going to
rot.

You could use Tyveck instead of poly under the joists. The rule about
a vapor barrier on the warm side doesn't apply to floors. Poly would
be OK too. But you also want to lay poly on the dirt as cheap
insurance against future moisture problems.

Another thing to consider is if you use fiberglass, you could combine
it with a layer of foam on top of the plywood--that is subfloor, layer
of 1" foam, and a second layer of plywood. This would only work if
floor height isn't an issue.