bulges and "hot spots" inside 20 year old furnace...do I really need new one?
 

I had my 20 year old Carrier forced air furnace tuned up today. The
technician snaked a camera up the inside of the furnace. He did NOT find
any cracks, but he found "bulging spots" which he also referred to as "hot
spots", inside the furnace. He claimed the heat exchanger had these bulges
and claimed that this is a sign that it is getting close to developing
cracks, and showed me the bulges.

But I wonder if what he showed me really was the heat exchanger....can a
camera can really be snaked up inside a heat exchanger?...or was what he
showed me something else. I always assumed that a heat exchanger is a
tremendously dense piece of metal and that you would not be able to "view
inside it with a camera" only "view it from below with a camera". This
same cavity could also be seen without a camera by looking into the furnace
with flashlight (he had removed one of the panels above where the burners
are) What he showed me was was a vertical cavity which had a couple of
bulges on the sides of the cavity which were bulging toward the outside.
Is that really the heat exchanger he showed me? What does the heat
exchanger on a 20 Yr. old Carrier furnace look like and exactly where is it
located?

There is also some rust present on the inside of the furnace.

The burners look like they produce a nice blue flame.

The technician is recommending a new furnace based on the age and based on
the bulges and rust. Do I really need to be seriously thinking about
getting a new furnace at this time because of the rust and bulges, or is it
possible this furnace could last several more years? I believe they
recommended a new furnace 3 years ago when I moved in although I don't
recall anyone showing me the bulges before, but I'm suspecting they could
have been present 3 years ago too.

BTW, the company I've been using prefers to install Goodman systems,
although they would also be willing to give me a price on another brand that
I have in mind which is Carrier. They say that they will warranty both the
parts and labor for 10 years on the Goodman, but the warranty on the Carrier
would depend on what their warranty is. Is a Goodman likely to last as long
as a Carrier?

Thanks,

J.

bulges and "hot spots" inside 20 year old furnace...do I really need new one?
 

I'm sure they love the idea of selling me a new furnace even if it isn't
really necessary at this time.

Wondering if other metal inside the furnace were to crack and it weren't the
heat exchanger cracking per se....would that require furnace replacement?

J
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I used to do furnace checks and was told to sell new furnace installs at
any cost short of being fraudulent. The heat exchanger in you furnace is
welded steel and is not known to crack or develop leaks at the welded
seams. However at 20 years in service I would consider an upgrade if it is
your budget to afford it. If it is affordable you would benefit from an
increased efficiency in a high SEER rated furnace.

bulges and "hot spots" inside 20 year old furnace...do I really need new one?
 

On Oct 4, 6:06 pm, Meat Plow wrote:
On Thu, 04 Oct 2007 22:38:58 +0000, wrote:
I had my 20 year old Carrier forced air furnace tuned up today. The
technician snaked a camera up the inside of the furnace. He did NOT find
any cracks, but he found "bulging spots" which he also referred to as "hot
spots", inside the furnace. He claimed the heat exchanger had these bulges
and claimed that this is a sign that it is getting close to developing
cracks, and showed me the bulges.

But I wonder if what he showed me really was the heat exchanger....can a
camera can really be snaked up inside a heat exchanger?...or was what he
showed me something else. I always assumed that a heat exchanger is a
tremendously dense piece of metal and that you would not be able to "view
inside it with a camera" only "view it from below with a camera". This
same cavity could also be seen without a camera by looking into the furnace
with flashlight (he had removed one of the panels above where the burners
are) What he showed me was was a vertical cavity which had a couple of
bulges on the sides of the cavity which were bulging toward the outside.
Is that really the heat exchanger he showed me? What does the heat
exchanger on a 20 Yr. old Carrier furnace look like and exactly where is it
located?

There is also some rust present on the inside of the furnace.

The burners look like they produce a nice blue flame.

The technician is recommending a new furnace based on the age and based on
the bulges and rust. Do I really need to be seriously thinking about
getting a new furnace at this time because of the rust and bulges, or is it
possible this furnace could last several more years? I believe they
recommended a new furnace 3 years ago when I moved in although I don't
recall anyone showing me the bulges before, but I'm suspecting they could
have been present 3 years ago too.

BTW, the company I've been using prefers to install Goodman systems,
although they would also be willing to give me a price on another brand that
I have in mind which is Carrier. They say that they will warranty both the
parts and labor for 10 years on the Goodman, but the warranty on the Carrier
would depend on what their warranty is. Is a Goodman likely to last as long
as a Carrier?

Thanks,

I used to do furnace checks and was told to sell new furnace installs at
any cost short of being fraudulent. The heat exchanger in you furnace is
welded steel and is not known to crack or develop leaks at the welded
seams. However at 20 years in service I would consider an upgrade if it is
your budget to afford it. If it is affordable you would benefit from an
increased efficiency in a high SEER rated furnace.

Sorry Meat,

Paul is right. Furnaces don't have SEER ratings, that is an AC
efficiency rating.

I manage several (around 20) townhouses that all have 16-17 year old
Carrier furnaces. We have replaced 3-4, and are expecting to have to
replace the rest of them over the next 2-3 years because the heat
exchangers are failing. Granted, it is generally the secondary heat
exchangers getting plugged with crud, but it isn't far fetched that
the primaries are failing too, or if you have an 80% efficient model,
the primary is all you have.


To the OP -

No, a heat exchanger is NOT a very dense piece of metal. Here is a
link to a photo :

http://americanhvacparts.com/Merchan...tegory_Code=HE

Your tech, from above or below, would be looking at the outside of
this, getting the same view as you have in the pictures. Typically,
on an upflow furnace, the heat exchanger is in the top of the cabinet,
but we don't know what you have.

Like Paul said, get another opinion. If you decide to wait, do
yourself a favor and spend $30 (or so) on a carbon monoxide detector.

JK

bulges and "hot spots" inside 20 year old furnace...do I reallyneed new one?
 

bulges and "hot spots" inside 20 year old furnace...do I really need new one?
 

On Thu, 04 Oct 2007 22:38:58 GMT, "
wrote:

I had my 20 year old Carrier forced air furnace tuned up today. The
technician snaked a camera up the inside of the furnace. He did NOT find
any cracks, but he found "bulging spots" which he also referred to as "hot
spots", inside the furnace. He claimed the heat exchanger had these bulges
and claimed that this is a sign that it is getting close to developing
cracks, and showed me the bulges.

But I wonder if what he showed me really was the heat exchanger....can a
camera can really be snaked up inside a heat exchanger?...or was what he
showed me something else. I always assumed that a heat exchanger is a
tremendously dense piece of metal and that you would not be able to "view
inside it with a camera" only "view it from below with a camera". This
same cavity could also be seen without a camera by looking into the furnace
with flashlight (he had removed one of the panels above where the burners
are) What he showed me was was a vertical cavity which had a couple of
bulges on the sides of the cavity which were bulging toward the outside.
Is that really the heat exchanger he showed me? What does the heat
exchanger on a 20 Yr. old Carrier furnace look like and exactly where is it
located?

There is also some rust present on the inside of the furnace.

The burners look like they produce a nice blue flame.

The technician is recommending a new furnace based on the age and based on
the bulges and rust. Do I really need to be seriously thinking about
getting a new furnace at this time because of the rust and bulges, or is it
possible this furnace could last several more years? I believe they
recommended a new furnace 3 years ago when I moved in although I don't
recall anyone showing me the bulges before, but I'm suspecting they could
have been present 3 years ago too.

BTW, the company I've been using prefers to install Goodman systems,
although they would also be willing to give me a price on another brand that
I have in mind which is Carrier. They say that they will warranty both the
parts and labor for 10 years on the Goodman, but the warranty on the Carrier
would depend on what their warranty is. Is a Goodman likely to last as long
as a Carrier?

Thanks,

J.


Get a new furnace before you kill your family you damn moron.

bulges and "hot spots" inside 20 year old furnace...do I really need new one?
 

On Thu, 04 Oct 2007 19:07:24 -0500, dpb wrote:

The risk in a
cracked condenser is flue gas in the warm air stream which is a serious
potentially fatal problem. While not as sensitive as a real instrument,
a CO monitor could spot a serious problem.
cracked condensor letting flue gas into airsrtream? LMFAO!

Cr

bulges and "hot spots" inside 20 year old furnace...do I really need new one?
 

" wrote in message
news:6YdNi.24373$Im1.6961@trnddc01...
I had my 20 year old Carrier forced air furnace tuned up today. The
technician snaked a camera up the inside of the furnace. He did NOT find
any cracks, but he found "bulging spots" which he also referred to as "hot
spots", inside the furnace. He claimed the heat exchanger had these
bulges
and claimed that this is a sign that it is getting close to developing
cracks, and showed me the bulges.


Bulges, hum... a new sales tactic?


But I wonder if what he showed me really was the heat exchanger....can a
camera can really be snaked up inside a heat exchanger?...or was what he
showed me something else. I always assumed that a heat exchanger is a
tremendously dense piece of metal and that you would not be able to "view
inside it with a camera" only "view it from below with a camera". This
same cavity could also be seen without a camera by looking into the
furnace
with flashlight (he had removed one of the panels above where the burners
are) What he showed me was was a vertical cavity which had a couple of
bulges on the sides of the cavity which were bulging toward the outside.
Is that really the heat exchanger he showed me?


Yes


What does the heat
exchanger on a 20 Yr. old Carrier furnace look like and exactly where is
it
located?


The burner tubes are inside the heat exchanger.


There is also some rust present on the inside of the furnace.


On a 20 year old furnace?
No way, get out of here!


The burners look like they produce a nice blue flame.


That's nice.


The technician is recommending a new furnace based on the age and based on
the bulges and rust. Do I really need to be seriously thinking about
getting a new furnace at this time because of the rust and bulges, or is
it
possible this furnace could last several more years?


The question as to when to replace would be economics.
Where do you live?


I believe they
recommended a new furnace 3 years ago when I moved in although I don't
recall anyone showing me the bulges before, but I'm suspecting they could
have been present 3 years ago too.


And probably present at the time of manufacturing.
Try getting someone that's competent in HVAC.


BTW, the company I've been using prefers to install Goodman systems,
although they would also be willing to give me a price on another brand
that
I have in mind which is Carrier. They say that they will warranty both
the
parts and labor for 10 years on the Goodman, but the warranty on the
Carrier
would depend on what their warranty is. Is a Goodman likely to last as
long
as a Carrier?


Any brand will last *if* properly sized, installed and set-up to run with-in
the manufacture's specifications.

bulges and "hot spots" inside 20 year old furnace...do I really need new one?
 

"Meat Plow" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 04 Oct 2007 22:38:58 +0000, wrote:

I had my 20 year old Carrier forced air furnace tuned up today. The
technician snaked a camera up the inside of the furnace. He did NOT
find
any cracks, but he found "bulging spots" which he also referred to as
"hot
spots", inside the furnace. He claimed the heat exchanger had these
bulges
and claimed that this is a sign that it is getting close to developing
cracks, and showed me the bulges.

But I wonder if what he showed me really was the heat exchanger....can a
camera can really be snaked up inside a heat exchanger?...or was what he
showed me something else. I always assumed that a heat exchanger is a
tremendously dense piece of metal and that you would not be able to
"view
inside it with a camera" only "view it from below with a camera".
This
same cavity could also be seen without a camera by looking into the
furnace
with flashlight (he had removed one of the panels above where the
burners
are) What he showed me was was a vertical cavity which had a couple of
bulges on the sides of the cavity which were bulging toward the outside.
Is that really the heat exchanger he showed me? What does the heat
exchanger on a 20 Yr. old Carrier furnace look like and exactly where is
it
located?

There is also some rust present on the inside of the furnace.

The burners look like they produce a nice blue flame.

The technician is recommending a new furnace based on the age and based
on
the bulges and rust. Do I really need to be seriously thinking about
getting a new furnace at this time because of the rust and bulges, or is
it
possible this furnace could last several more years? I believe they
recommended a new furnace 3 years ago when I moved in although I don't
recall anyone showing me the bulges before, but I'm suspecting they
could
have been present 3 years ago too.

BTW, the company I've been using prefers to install Goodman systems,
although they would also be willing to give me a price on another brand
that
I have in mind which is Carrier. They say that they will warranty both
the
parts and labor for 10 years on the Goodman, but the warranty on the
Carrier
would depend on what their warranty is. Is a Goodman likely to last as
long
as a Carrier?

Thanks,


I used to do furnace checks and was told to sell new furnace installs at
any cost short of being fraudulent. The heat exchanger in you furnace is
welded steel and is not known to crack or develop leaks at the welded
seams. However at 20 years in service I would consider an upgrade if it is
your budget to afford it. If it is affordable you would benefit from an
increased efficiency in a high SEER rated furnace.


Heat exchangers are not known to crack?????

I think you're smoking crack!!!!!!

bulges and "hot spots" inside 20 year old furnace...do I really need new one?
 

wrote in message
...
On Thu, 04 Oct 2007 19:06:10 -0400, Meat Plow
wrote:

I used to do furnace checks and was told to sell new furnace installs at
any cost short of being fraudulent. The heat exchanger in you furnace is
welded steel and is not known to crack or develop leaks at the welded
seams. However at 20 years in service I would consider an upgrade if it
is
your budget to afford it. If it is affordable you would benefit from an
increased efficiency in a high SEER rated furnace.

Furnaces don't have SEER ratings.

How sure ARE you you 'used to do furnace checks' ??


Meat Plow qualifies to be Stormy's assistant.
He spews his crap at home/repair all the time.

bulges and "hot spots" inside 20 year old furnace...do I really need new one?
 

"Meat Plow" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 04 Oct 2007 23:27:01 +0000, wrote:


I'm sure they love the idea of selling me a new furnace even if it isn't
really necessary at this time.

Wondering if other metal inside the furnace were to crack and it weren't
the
heat exchanger cracking per se....would that require furnace
replacement?

Main concern for safety is the heat exchanger. A crack or weld leak will
allow CO from the combustion to mix with the heated air. Not much other
metal that would crack or such.


Maybe you need to look at a induced draft, inshot burner type of furnace.
Things change over the years.

bulges and "hot spots" inside 20 year old furnace...do I really need new one?
 

"Big_Jake" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Oct 4, 6:06 pm, Meat Plow wrote:
On Thu, 04 Oct 2007 22:38:58 +0000, wrote:
I had my 20 year old Carrier forced air furnace tuned up today. The
technician snaked a camera up the inside of the furnace. He did NOT
find
any cracks, but he found "bulging spots" which he also referred to as
"hot
spots", inside the furnace. He claimed the heat exchanger had these
bulges
and claimed that this is a sign that it is getting close to developing
cracks, and showed me the bulges.

But I wonder if what he showed me really was the heat exchanger....can
a
camera can really be snaked up inside a heat exchanger?...or was what
he
showed me something else. I always assumed that a heat exchanger is
a
tremendously dense piece of metal and that you would not be able to
"view
inside it with a camera" only "view it from below with a camera".
This
same cavity could also be seen without a camera by looking into the
furnace
with flashlight (he had removed one of the panels above where the
burners
are) What he showed me was was a vertical cavity which had a couple
of
bulges on the sides of the cavity which were bulging toward the
outside.
Is that really the heat exchanger he showed me? What does the heat
exchanger on a 20 Yr. old Carrier furnace look like and exactly where
is it
located?

There is also some rust present on the inside of the furnace.

The burners look like they produce a nice blue flame.

The technician is recommending a new furnace based on the age and
based on
the bulges and rust. Do I really need to be seriously thinking about
getting a new furnace at this time because of the rust and bulges, or
is it
possible this furnace could last several more years? I believe they
recommended a new furnace 3 years ago when I moved in although I don't
recall anyone showing me the bulges before, but I'm suspecting they
could
have been present 3 years ago too.

BTW, the company I've been using prefers to install Goodman systems,
although they would also be willing to give me a price on another
brand that
I have in mind which is Carrier. They say that they will warranty
both the
parts and labor for 10 years on the Goodman, but the warranty on the
Carrier
would depend on what their warranty is. Is a Goodman likely to last
as long
as a Carrier?

Thanks,

I used to do furnace checks and was told to sell new furnace installs at
any cost short of being fraudulent. The heat exchanger in you furnace is
welded steel and is not known to crack or develop leaks at the welded
seams. However at 20 years in service I would consider an upgrade if it
is
your budget to afford it. If it is affordable you would benefit from an
increased efficiency in a high SEER rated furnace.

Sorry Meat,

Paul is right. Furnaces don't have SEER ratings, that is an AC
efficiency rating.

I manage several (around 20) townhouses that all have 16-17 year old
Carrier furnaces. We have replaced 3-4, and are expecting to have to
replace the rest of them over the next 2-3 years because the heat
exchangers are failing. Granted, it is generally the secondary heat
exchangers getting plugged with crud, but it isn't far fetched that
the primaries are failing too, or if you have an 80% efficient model,
the primary is all you have.


To the OP -

No, a heat exchanger is NOT a very dense piece of metal. Here is a
link to a photo :


http://americanhvacparts.com/Merchan...Y&Category_Cod
e=HE

Your tech, from above or below, would be looking at the outside of
this, getting the same view as you have in the pictures. Typically,
on an upflow furnace, the heat exchanger is in the top of the cabinet,
but we don't know what you have.

Like Paul said, get another opinion. If you decide to wait, do
yourself a favor and spend $30 (or so) on a carbon monoxide detector.

JK


A 30 dollar CO detector is crap.
Unless you spend a couple hundred dollars on a good one, it's a false sense
of security.

bulges and "hot spots" inside 20 year old furnace...do I really need new one?
 

"dpb" wrote in message ...
wrote:
I had my 20 year old Carrier forced air furnace tuned up today. The
technician snaked a camera up the inside of the furnace. He did NOT
find any cracks, but he found "bulging spots" which he also referred to
as "hot spots", inside the furnace. He claimed the heat exchanger had
these bulges and claimed that this is a sign that it is getting close to
developing cracks, and showed me the bulges.

But I wonder if what he showed me really was the heat exchanger....can a
camera can really be snaked up inside a heat exchanger?...or was what he
showed me something else. I always assumed that a heat exchanger is a
tremendously dense piece of metal and that you would not be able to
"view inside it with a camera" only "view it from below with a
camera". This same cavity could also be seen without a camera by
looking into the furnace with flashlight (he had removed one of the
panels above where the burners are) What he showed me was was a
vertical cavity which had a couple of bulges on the sides of the cavity
which were bulging toward the outside. Is that really the heat exchanger
he showed me? What does the heat exchanger on a 20 Yr. old Carrier
furnace look like and exactly where is it located?

There is also some rust present on the inside of the furnace.

The burners look like they produce a nice blue flame.

The technician is recommending a new furnace based on the age and based
on the bulges and rust. Do I really need to be seriously thinking about
getting a new furnace at this time because of the rust and bulges, or is
it possible this furnace could last several more years? I believe they
recommended a new furnace 3 years ago when I moved in although I don't
recall anyone showing me the bulges before, but I'm suspecting they
could have been present 3 years ago too.

BTW, the company I've been using prefers to install Goodman systems,
although they would also be willing to give me a price on another brand
that I have in mind which is Carrier. They say that they will warranty
both the parts and labor for 10 years on the Goodman, but the warranty
on the Carrier would depend on what their warranty is. Is a Goodman
likely to last as long as a Carrier?

It is possible. The key item is did he do a CO test? The risk in a
cracked condenser is flue gas in the warm air stream which is a serious
potentially fatal problem. While not as sensitive as a real instrument,
a CO monitor could spot a serious problem.

Goodman is one of the lower initial cost units but seems recently (last
couple of years from anecdotal evidence) to have upped their warranty
periods. What the actual failure rates are for their gas furnace units
I don't know but the last CR ratings for A/C units had them at the
complete bottom and separated from the rest of the pack by a significant
margin. I'd do a little investigative digging before jumping in,
particularly if there is an A/C unit involved as well as the furnace.


CR is a joke for rating HVAC equipment.

bulges and "hot spots" inside 20 year old furnace...do I really need new one?
 

On Oct 4, 8:25 pm, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:
"Big_Jake" wrote in message

ups.com...



On Oct 4, 6:06 pm, Meat Plow wrote:
On Thu, 04 Oct 2007 22:38:58 +0000, wrote:
I had my 20 year old Carrier forced air furnace tuned up today. The
technician snaked a camera up the inside of the furnace. He did NOT
find
any cracks, but he found "bulging spots" which he also referred to as
"hot
spots", inside the furnace. He claimed the heat exchanger had these
bulges
and claimed that this is a sign that it is getting close to developing
cracks, and showed me the bulges.

But I wonder if what he showed me really was the heat exchanger....can
a
camera can really be snaked up inside a heat exchanger?...or was what
he
showed me something else. I always assumed that a heat exchanger is
a
tremendously dense piece of metal and that you would not be able to
"view
inside it with a camera" only "view it from below with a camera".
This
same cavity could also be seen without a camera by looking into the
furnace
with flashlight (he had removed one of the panels above where the
burners
are) What he showed me was was a vertical cavity which had a couple
of
bulges on the sides of the cavity which were bulging toward the
outside.
Is that really the heat exchanger he showed me? What does the heat
exchanger on a 20 Yr. old Carrier furnace look like and exactly where
is it
located?

There is also some rust present on the inside of the furnace.

The burners look like they produce a nice blue flame.

The technician is recommending a new furnace based on the age and
based on
the bulges and rust. Do I really need to be seriously thinking about
getting a new furnace at this time because of the rust and bulges, or
is it
possible this furnace could last several more years? I believe they
recommended a new furnace 3 years ago when I moved in although I don't
recall anyone showing me the bulges before, but I'm suspecting they
could
have been present 3 years ago too.

BTW, the company I've been using prefers to install Goodman systems,
although they would also be willing to give me a price on another
brand that
I have in mind which is Carrier. They say that they will warranty
both the
parts and labor for 10 years on the Goodman, but the warranty on the
Carrier
would depend on what their warranty is. Is a Goodman likely to last
as long
as a Carrier?

Thanks,

I used to do furnace checks and was told to sell new furnace installs at
any cost short of being fraudulent. The heat exchanger in you furnace is
welded steel and is not known to crack or develop leaks at the welded
seams. However at 20 years in service I would consider an upgrade if it
is
your budget to afford it. If it is affordable you would benefit from an
increased efficiency in a high SEER rated furnace.

Sorry Meat,

Paul is right. Furnaces don't have SEER ratings, that is an AC
efficiency rating.

I manage several (around 20) townhouses that all have 16-17 year old
Carrier furnaces. We have replaced 3-4, and are expecting to have to
replace the rest of them over the next 2-3 years because the heat
exchangers are failing. Granted, it is generally the secondary heat
exchangers getting plugged with crud, but it isn't far fetched that
the primaries are failing too, or if you have an 80% efficient model,
the primary is all you have.

To the OP -

No, a heat exchanger is NOT a very dense piece of metal. Here is a
link to a photo :

http://americanhvacparts.com/Merchan...een=CTGY&Categ...
e=HE



Your tech, from above or below, would be looking at the outside of
this, getting the same view as you have in the pictures. Typically,
on an upflow furnace, the heat exchanger is in the top of the cabinet,
but we don't know what you have.

Like Paul said, get another opinion. If you decide to wait, do
yourself a favor and spend $30 (or so) on a carbon monoxide detector.

JK

A 30 dollar CO detector is crap.
Unless you spend a couple hundred dollars on a good one, it's a false sense
of security.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Heat exchangers do crack, yes you can look inside the exchanger, and
usauly there will be a white area around the crack but not always, get
a second if you want if he says the same buy it

bulges and "hot spots" inside 20 year old furnace...do I really need new one?
 

Ok, so it sounds like your telling me that they're trying to BS me about the
idea that bulges or curves in the metal are a sign that it is close to the
point of cracking. What he showed me doesn't strike me as appearing to be
present by design though.

Anyway, it sounds like I need to be getting a 2nd opinion as to whether the
bulges or curves in the metal really mean that the metal is about to crack.
Is there anyone you recommend in Northern NJ that knows what they are doing?

Thanks,

J


kjpro @ usenet.com wrote in message
...

" wrote in message
news:6YdNi.24373$Im1.6961@trnddc01...
I had my 20 year old Carrier forced air furnace tuned up today. The
technician snaked a camera up the inside of the furnace. He did NOT find
any cracks, but he found "bulging spots" which he also referred to as
"hot
spots", inside the furnace. He claimed the heat exchanger had these
bulges
and claimed that this is a sign that it is getting close to developing
cracks, and showed me the bulges.


Bulges, hum... a new sales tactic?


But I wonder if what he showed me really was the heat exchanger....can a
camera can really be snaked up inside a heat exchanger?...or was what he
showed me something else. I always assumed that a heat exchanger is a
tremendously dense piece of metal and that you would not be able to "view
inside it with a camera" only "view it from below with a camera". This
same cavity could also be seen without a camera by looking into the
furnace
with flashlight (he had removed one of the panels above where the burners
are) What he showed me was was a vertical cavity which had a couple of
bulges on the sides of the cavity which were bulging toward the outside.
Is that really the heat exchanger he showed me?


Yes


What does the heat
exchanger on a 20 Yr. old Carrier furnace look like and exactly where is
it
located?


The burner tubes are inside the heat exchanger.


There is also some rust present on the inside of the furnace.


On a 20 year old furnace?
No way, get out of here!


The burners look like they produce a nice blue flame.


That's nice.


The technician is recommending a new furnace based on the age and based
on
the bulges and rust. Do I really need to be seriously thinking about
getting a new furnace at this time because of the rust and bulges, or is
it
possible this furnace could last several more years?


The question as to when to replace would be economics.
Where do you live?


I believe they
recommended a new furnace 3 years ago when I moved in although I don't
recall anyone showing me the bulges before, but I'm suspecting they could
have been present 3 years ago too.


And probably present at the time of manufacturing.
Try getting someone that's competent in HVAC.


BTW, the company I've been using prefers to install Goodman systems,
although they would also be willing to give me a price on another brand
that
I have in mind which is Carrier. They say that they will warranty both
the
parts and labor for 10 years on the Goodman, but the warranty on the
Carrier
would depend on what their warranty is. Is a Goodman likely to last as
long
as a Carrier?


Any brand will last *if* properly sized, installed and set-up to run
with-in
the manufacture's specifications.

bulges and "hot spots" inside 20 year old furnace...do I really need new one?
 

Big_Jake wrote:

... Furnaces don't have SEER ratings

They do have EERs, like ASHRAE bunnies: if a furnace moves 40K Btu/h
with a 400 watt blower, the EER is 40K/(400x3.41) = 29.

If a 2K Btu/h car radiator with 36 W fans moves (140-50)2K = 180K Btu/h
from 140 F solar heated water to 50 F air with a 170 W pump, the EER is
180K/(206x3.41) = 256.

Nick

bulges and "hot spots" inside 20 year old furnace...do I really need new one?
 

kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:

A 30 dollar CO detector is crap.
Unless you spend a couple hundred dollars on a good one, it's a false sense
of security.

Would you have any evidence for this article of faith?

Nick

bulges and "hot spots" inside 20 year old furnace...do I really need new one?
 

bulges and "hot spots" inside 20 year old furnace...do I really need new one?
 

On 4 Oct, 20:00, Big_Jake wrote:
On Oct 4, 6:06 pm, Meat Plow wrote:





On Thu, 04 Oct 2007 22:38:58 +0000, wrote:
I had my 20 year old Carrier forced air furnace tuned up today. The
technician snaked a camera up the inside of the furnace. He did NOT find
any cracks, but he found "bulging spots" which he also referred to as "hot
spots", inside the furnace. He claimed the heat exchanger had these bulges
and claimed that this is a sign that it is getting close to developing
cracks, and showed me the bulges.

But I wonder if what he showed me really was the heat exchanger....can a
camera can really be snaked up inside a heat exchanger?...or was what he
showed me something else. I always assumed that a heat exchanger is a
tremendously dense piece of metal and that you would not be able to "view
inside it with a camera" only "view it from below with a camera". This
same cavity could also be seen without a camera by looking into the furnace
with flashlight (he had removed one of the panels above where the burners
are) What he showed me was was a vertical cavity which had a couple of
bulges on the sides of the cavity which were bulging toward the outside.
Is that really the heat exchanger he showed me? What does the heat
exchanger on a 20 Yr. old Carrier furnace look like and exactly where is it
located?

There is also some rust present on the inside of the furnace.

The burners look like they produce a nice blue flame.

The technician is recommending a new furnace based on the age and based on
the bulges and rust. Do I really need to be seriously thinking about
getting a new furnace at this time because of the rust and bulges, or is it
possible this furnace could last several more years? I believe they
recommended a new furnace 3 years ago when I moved in although I don't
recall anyone showing me the bulges before, but I'm suspecting they could
have been present 3 years ago too.

BTW, the company I've been using prefers to install Goodman systems,
although they would also be willing to give me a price on another brand that
I have in mind which is Carrier. They say that they will warranty both the
parts and labor for 10 years on the Goodman, but the warranty on the Carrier
would depend on what their warranty is. Is a Goodman likely to last as long
as a Carrier?

Thanks,

I used to do furnace checks and was told to sell new furnace installs at
any cost short of being fraudulent. The heat exchanger in you furnace is
welded steel and is not known to crack or develop leaks at the welded
seams. However at 20 years in service I would consider an upgrade if it is
your budget to afford it. If it is affordable you would benefit from an
increased efficiency in a high SEER rated furnace.

Sorry Meat,

Paul is right. Furnaces don't have SEER ratings, that is an AC
efficiency rating.

I manage several (around 20) townhouses that all have 16-17 year old
Carrier furnaces. We have replaced 3-4, and are expecting to have to
replace the rest of them over the next 2-3 years because the heat
exchangers are failing. Granted, it is generally the secondary heat
exchangers getting plugged with crud, but it isn't far fetched that
the primaries are failing too, or if you have an 80% efficient model,
the primary is all you have.

To the OP -

No, a heat exchanger is NOT a very dense piece of metal. Here is a
link to a photo :

http://americanhvacparts.com/Merchan...een=CTGY&Categ...

Your tech, from above or below, would be looking at the outside of
this, getting the same view as you have in the pictures. Typically,
on an upflow furnace, the heat exchanger is in the top of the cabinet,
but we don't know what you have.

Like Paul said, get another opinion. If you decide to wait, do
yourself a favor and spend $30 (or so) on a carbon monoxide detector.

JK- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

"No, a heat exchanger is NOT a very dense piece of metal."

Granted, I can't speak to a 20 YO Carrier, but the heat exchanger on
my old gas fired unit was one heavy, honkin' mass of metal, looking
somewhat similiar to an old water filled radiator. By far the heaviest
component of the entire furnace.

bulges and "hot spots" inside 20 year old furnace...do I really need new one?
 

"HeyBub" wrote in message
...
wrote:
I'm sure they love the idea of selling me a new furnace even if it
isn't really necessary at this time.

Wondering if other metal inside the furnace were to crack and it
weren't the heat exchanger cracking per se....would that require
furnace replacement?
J

The notion of a cracked heat exchanger being a hazard involves the leaking
of CO into the living space.

Be aware that, for thousands of years, humans heated their dwellings
without benefit of heat exchangers; some still do today.

I grew up in a home with natural gas heaters in every room. The only
problem it ever caused me is the inability to tie my shoes. In all
fairness, lately I have noticed a difficulty in using complicated
mechanical devices (such as a spoon).

Nevertheless, a CO detector (or a canary) is far, far cheaper than a new
furnace.

Furnaces are only built to last for 18 - 20 years. The new models use a
fraction of the energy to run them. You can keep funneling money into
repairs, and giving your money to the utility company if you want. Its been
my personal experience that when I install a new comfort system in a
customers home, there utility bills drop on the average of 60%, and the new
system is so quiet, they are not even aware that its running.
Its your choice....Keeping the old furnace will cost you more in the long
run, and you'll *STILL* have to replace it...... its not a matter of *IF*,
its a matter of *WHEN*

bulges and "hot spots" inside 20 year old furnace...do I really need new one?
 

In article 6YdNi.24373$Im1.6961@trnddc01, " wrote:

The technician is recommending a new furnace based on the age and based on
the bulges and rust. Do I really need to be seriously thinking about
getting a new furnace at this time because of the rust and bulges, or is it
possible this furnace could last several more years? I believe they
recommended a new furnace 3 years ago when I moved in although I don't
recall anyone showing me the bulges before, but I'm suspecting they could
have been present 3 years ago too.

This technician is probably right. You should start planning for
a replacement furnace fairly soon. Yes, the existing furnace may
last a while longer. But it may fail as soon as the really cold
weather sets in and then you'll probably have a very hard time
finding anyone to work on it unless you're willing to pay a
premium price.

But you'd also be crazy to give the job to the first guy that
came along. It's time to get recommendations and prices from
several firms and think through exactly what kind of system
you're going to want.

--
|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
| Malcolm Hoar "The more I practice, the luckier I get". |
| Gary Player. |
| http://www.malch.com/ Shpx gur PQN. |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

bulges and "hot spots" inside 20 year old furnace...do I really need new one?
 

In article ,
Bubba wrote:

On 5 Oct 2007 04:19:56 -0400, wrote:

kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:

A 30 dollar CO detector is crap.
Unless you spend a couple hundred dollars on a good one, it's a false sense
of security.

Would you have any evidence for this article of faith?

Nick

Nick,
You can start right here. Its on the front page
http://coexperts.com/
The level that CO detectors DONT alarm at is the real problem.
Happy reading.
Bubba

If I were Nick, I'd next ask: Do you have any evidence *other* than
claims made on the website of a company selling the high-priced
detectors?

bulges and "hot spots" inside 20 year old furnace...do I reallyneed new one?
 

bulges and "hot spots" inside 20 year old furnace...do I really need new one?
 

wrote in message
...
kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:

A 30 dollar CO detector is crap.
Unless you spend a couple hundred dollars on a good one, it's a false
sense
of security.

Would you have any evidence for this article of faith?


Name one cheap $30 detector that protects against low level CO poisoning.

bulges and "hot spots" inside 20 year old furnace...do I really need new one?
 

"Smitty Two" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Bubba wrote:

On 5 Oct 2007 04:19:56 -0400, wrote:

kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:

A 30 dollar CO detector is crap.
Unless you spend a couple hundred dollars on a good one, it's a false
sense
of security.

Would you have any evidence for this article of faith?

Nick

Nick,
You can start right here. Its on the front page
http://coexperts.com/
The level that CO detectors DONT alarm at is the real problem.
Happy reading.
Bubba

If I were Nick, I'd next ask: Do you have any evidence *other* than
claims made on the website of a company selling the high-priced
detectors?


Sure do... look up UL-2034
Then check the data on acceptable alarm levels.
Now find a normal big box store that carries anything *but* UL listed
detectors.
Name one of those detectors that sound an alarm when the CO sensor fails.
Most people don't understand that they need to be replaced after a few
years.

It a false sense of security, PERIOD.

bulges and "hot spots" inside 20 year old furnace...do I really need new one?
 

"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
ps.com...
On 4 Oct, 20:00, Big_Jake wrote:
On Oct 4, 6:06 pm, Meat Plow wrote:





On Thu, 04 Oct 2007 22:38:58 +0000, wrote:
I had my 20 year old Carrier forced air furnace tuned up today.
The
technician snaked a camera up the inside of the furnace. He did NOT
find
any cracks, but he found "bulging spots" which he also referred to
as "hot
spots", inside the furnace. He claimed the heat exchanger had these
bulges
and claimed that this is a sign that it is getting close to
developing
cracks, and showed me the bulges.

But I wonder if what he showed me really was the heat
exchanger....can a
camera can really be snaked up inside a heat exchanger?...or was
what he
showed me something else. I always assumed that a heat exchanger
is a
tremendously dense piece of metal and that you would not be able to
"view
inside it with a camera" only "view it from below with a camera".
This
same cavity could also be seen without a camera by looking into the
furnace
with flashlight (he had removed one of the panels above where the
burners
are) What he showed me was was a vertical cavity which had a couple
of
bulges on the sides of the cavity which were bulging toward the
outside.
Is that really the heat exchanger he showed me? What does the heat
exchanger on a 20 Yr. old Carrier furnace look like and exactly
where is it
located?

There is also some rust present on the inside of the furnace.

The burners look like they produce a nice blue flame.

The technician is recommending a new furnace based on the age and
based on
the bulges and rust. Do I really need to be seriously thinking
about
getting a new furnace at this time because of the rust and bulges,
or is it
possible this furnace could last several more years? I believe they
recommended a new furnace 3 years ago when I moved in although I
don't
recall anyone showing me the bulges before, but I'm suspecting they
could
have been present 3 years ago too.

BTW, the company I've been using prefers to install Goodman systems,
although they would also be willing to give me a price on another
brand that
I have in mind which is Carrier. They say that they will warranty
both the
parts and labor for 10 years on the Goodman, but the warranty on the
Carrier
would depend on what their warranty is. Is a Goodman likely to last
as long
as a Carrier?

Thanks,

I used to do furnace checks and was told to sell new furnace installs
at
any cost short of being fraudulent. The heat exchanger in you furnace
is
welded steel and is not known to crack or develop leaks at the welded
seams. However at 20 years in service I would consider an upgrade if
it is
your budget to afford it. If it is affordable you would benefit from
an
increased efficiency in a high SEER rated furnace.

Sorry Meat,

Paul is right. Furnaces don't have SEER ratings, that is an AC
efficiency rating.

I manage several (around 20) townhouses that all have 16-17 year old
Carrier furnaces. We have replaced 3-4, and are expecting to have to
replace the rest of them over the next 2-3 years because the heat
exchangers are failing. Granted, it is generally the secondary heat
exchangers getting plugged with crud, but it isn't far fetched that
the primaries are failing too, or if you have an 80% efficient model,
the primary is all you have.

To the OP -

No, a heat exchanger is NOT a very dense piece of metal. Here is a
link to a photo :

http://americanhvacparts.com/Merchan...een=CTGY&Categ...

Your tech, from above or below, would be looking at the outside of
this, getting the same view as you have in the pictures. Typically,
on an upflow furnace, the heat exchanger is in the top of the cabinet,
but we don't know what you have.

Like Paul said, get another opinion. If you decide to wait, do
yourself a favor and spend $30 (or so) on a carbon monoxide detector.

JK- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

"No, a heat exchanger is NOT a very dense piece of metal."

Granted, I can't speak to a 20 YO Carrier, but the heat exchanger on
my old gas fired unit was one heavy, honkin' mass of metal, looking
somewhat similiar to an old water filled radiator. By far the heaviest
component of the entire furnace.


It may be the heaviest, but it's not like its a 1/4 inch thick.

Do bulges or curves in the heat exchanger mean it is about to crack, YES or NO?
 

Do bulges or curves in the metal of the heat exchanger mean it is about to
crack or not? Yes or no?

J.

Do bulges or curves in the heat exchanger mean it is about to crack, YES or NO?
 

In article 8itNi.13$C2.7@trnddc02,
" wrote:

Do bulges or curves in the metal of the heat exchanger mean it is about to
crack or not? Yes or no?

J.

Maybe you should take this over to alt.answers.magic8ball.

Do bulges or curves in the heat exchanger mean it is about to crack, YES or NO?
 

" wrote in message
news:8itNi.13$C2.7@trnddc02...
Do bulges or curves in the metal of the heat exchanger mean it is about to
crack or not? Yes or no?


No

bulges and "hot spots" inside 20 year old furnace...do I really need new one?
 

On 5 Oct, 12:05, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:
"DerbyDad03" wrote in message

ps.com...





On 4 Oct, 20:00, Big_Jake wrote:
On Oct 4, 6:06 pm, Meat Plow wrote:

On Thu, 04 Oct 2007 22:38:58 +0000, wrote:
I had my 20 year old Carrier forced air furnace tuned up today.
The
technician snaked a camera up the inside of the furnace. He did NOT
find
any cracks, but he found "bulging spots" which he also referred to
as "hot
spots", inside the furnace. He claimed the heat exchanger had these
bulges
and claimed that this is a sign that it is getting close to
developing
cracks, and showed me the bulges.

But I wonder if what he showed me really was the heat
exchanger....can a
camera can really be snaked up inside a heat exchanger?...or was
what he
showed me something else. I always assumed that a heat exchanger
is a
tremendously dense piece of metal and that you would not be able to
"view
inside it with a camera" only "view it from below with a camera".
This
same cavity could also be seen without a camera by looking into the
furnace
with flashlight (he had removed one of the panels above where the
burners
are) What he showed me was was a vertical cavity which had a couple
of
bulges on the sides of the cavity which were bulging toward the
outside.
Is that really the heat exchanger he showed me? What does the heat
exchanger on a 20 Yr. old Carrier furnace look like and exactly
where is it
located?

There is also some rust present on the inside of the furnace.

The burners look like they produce a nice blue flame.

The technician is recommending a new furnace based on the age and
based on
the bulges and rust. Do I really need to be seriously thinking
about
getting a new furnace at this time because of the rust and bulges,
or is it
possible this furnace could last several more years? I believe they
recommended a new furnace 3 years ago when I moved in although I
don't
recall anyone showing me the bulges before, but I'm suspecting they
could
have been present 3 years ago too.

BTW, the company I've been using prefers to install Goodman systems,
although they would also be willing to give me a price on another
brand that
I have in mind which is Carrier. They say that they will warranty
both the
parts and labor for 10 years on the Goodman, but the warranty on the
Carrier
would depend on what their warranty is. Is a Goodman likely to last
as long
as a Carrier?

Thanks,

I used to do furnace checks and was told to sell new furnace installs
at
any cost short of being fraudulent. The heat exchanger in you furnace
is
welded steel and is not known to crack or develop leaks at the welded
seams. However at 20 years in service I would consider an upgrade if
it is
your budget to afford it. If it is affordable you would benefit from
an
increased efficiency in a high SEER rated furnace.

Sorry Meat,

Paul is right. Furnaces don't have SEER ratings, that is an AC
efficiency rating.

I manage several (around 20) townhouses that all have 16-17 year old
Carrier furnaces. We have replaced 3-4, and are expecting to have to
replace the rest of them over the next 2-3 years because the heat
exchangers are failing. Granted, it is generally the secondary heat
exchangers getting plugged with crud, but it isn't far fetched that
the primaries are failing too, or if you have an 80% efficient model,
the primary is all you have.

To the OP -

No, a heat exchanger is NOT a very dense piece of metal. Here is a
link to a photo :

http://americanhvacparts.com/Merchan...een=CTGY&Categ...

Your tech, from above or below, would be looking at the outside of
this, getting the same view as you have in the pictures. Typically,
on an upflow furnace, the heat exchanger is in the top of the cabinet,
but we don't know what you have.

Like Paul said, get another opinion. If you decide to wait, do
yourself a favor and spend $30 (or so) on a carbon monoxide detector.

JK- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

"No, a heat exchanger is NOT a very dense piece of metal."

Granted, I can't speak to a 20 YO Carrier, but the heat exchanger on
my old gas fired unit was one heavy, honkin' mass of metal, looking
somewhat similiar to an old water filled radiator. By far the heaviest
component of the entire furnace.

- It may be the heaviest, but it's not like its a 1/4 inch thick

Dunno...it was a 1950-ish Perfection gas fired forced air. From
exterior of the heat exchanger, it certainly appeared and felt, like
the unit was pretty thick.

In an earlier post, someone said (about the 20 YO Carrier) "The burner
tubes are inside the heat exchanger". On my perfection, the burner was
below the heat exchanger in it's own compartment. The burner was, I
don't know, about a 9" x 9" plate with over a hundred (?) flames.

The heat exchanger pictured towards the bottom of this site looks like
an absolute wimp compared to the rough surfaced, solid looking heat
exchanger in my old furnace.

bulges and "hot spots" inside 20 year old furnace...do I really need new one?
 

On 5 Oct, 13:43, Bubba wrote:
On Fri, 5 Oct 2007 10:28:03 -0500, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:

wrote in message
...
kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:

A 30 dollar CO detector is crap.
Unless you spend a couple hundred dollars on a good one, it's a false
sense
of security.

Would you have any evidence for this article of faith?

Name one cheap $30 detector that protects against low level CO poisoning.

hehe. 95% of the population (I made that percentage up on guesstimate)
doesn't have a clue that an "average" CO detector might as well just
be a dim night light plugged in the wall.
At least you can tell when a night light goes bad.
Bubba- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

-- 95% of the population (I made that percentage up on
guesstimate) ...

Did you know that 93.7% off all statistics are made up on the spot?

bulges and "hot spots" inside 20 year old furnace...do I really need new one?
 

On 5 Oct, 14:37, "-zero" wrote:
"DerbyDad03" wrote in message

oups.com...

On 5 Oct, 12:05, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:
"DerbyDad03" wrote in message

- It may be the heaviest, but it's not like its a 1/4 inch thick

Dunno...it was a 1950-ish Perfection gas fired forced air. From
exterior of the heat exchanger, it certainly appeared and felt, like
the unit was pretty thick.

...

In an earlier post, someone said (about the 20 YO Carrier) "The burner
tubes are inside the heat exchanger". On my perfection, the burner was
below the heat exchanger in it's own compartment. The burner was, I
don't know, about a 9" x 9" plate with over a hundred (?) flames.

Sounds like a manufacturers conversion from oil to gas.

The heat exchanger pictured towards the bottom of this site looks like
an absolute wimp compared to the rough surfaced, solid looking heat
exchanger in my old furnace.

Sounds Like an oil to gas conversion. Midco burners did quite well
through to 60's-70's. :-)

In the early 60's, there were quite a few companies that designed
their own conversion burner (or fuel burner of choice) as they
we're sitting on a cargo loads of oil furnace chambers that were not
moving anytime soon. As Natural-Gas lines were being run like
mad through the big cities, Gas furnace design was changing
from gravity units w/ add-on blowers, to the
typical 80%'ers of the 1960's-80's.

Mind you, back then there were 1,000 times (WAG) the number of
furnace and boiler manufacturers in the US. Many were very
popular/well known but only encompassing a very small
region of the country.

Some of these are still running today, due to the lack of
the Planned-Obsolescence concept, and the focus was
mostly "Ours is better/stronger/faster than yours".

-zero

If it was a conversion, it was certainly done by the manufacturer, as
you stated. The manual included instructions for the installed gas
valve and side mounted blower.

The original gas valve had a flip-up tab so you could manually operate
the gas valve during a power outage. The manual listed the duty cycle
for operating the unit without a blower. I doubt the comparatively
wimpy heat exchangers of today's furnaces could handle running without
a blower.

Wouldn't you know that early one winter the gas valve started acting
up, so I placed a service a call. They had to replace the gas valve,
and "No, you can't have one that can be operated manually. They're
illegal now." So what happens during March of same winter? A major
ice storm in upstate NY. We were without power - and now without heat
due to the "upgraded" gas valve - for 5 days.

bulges and "hot spots" inside 20 year old furnace...do I really need new one?
 

"Bubba" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 5 Oct 2007 10:28:03 -0500, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:


wrote in message
...
kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:

A 30 dollar CO detector is crap.
Unless you spend a couple hundred dollars on a good one, it's a false
sense
of security.

Would you have any evidence for this article of faith?


Name one cheap $30 detector that protects against low level CO poisoning.


hehe. 95% of the population (I made that percentage up on guesstimate)
doesn't have a clue that an "average" CO detector might as well just
be a dim night light plugged in the wall.
At least you can tell when a night light goes bad.
Bubba

It should be illegal to sell them without a disclaimer.

bulges and "hot spots" inside 20 year old furnace...do I really need new one?
 

"ftwhd" wrote in message
...

I see why you ****ing idiots cross post to alt.hvac. The 20 yo 80%
furnace is just as efficient as todays 80% furnace.


Natural draft vs induced draft.
No way.