We are in the process of buying a home and as part of the home
inspection it was found there was not a main disconnet in the
electrical panel. The sellers agreed to have one installed. They
just sent us note from a contractor stating "The panel in question is
a spIit bus bar panel with a main breaker for lighting and
receptacles only. Although it is outdated it is not an unsafe system.
These panels were
used frequently in new construction through the 1970's. (The house was
built in 1982)

My question: Is this something that really should be updated? We have
2 small children plus my parents lost everything in an electrical
fire several years back so I am pretty concerned.

Any advice, thoughts, would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

For the cost of installing a main disconnect or a new panel I think the
piece of mind would be worth it.




wrote in message
ups.com...
We are in the process of buying a home and as part of the home
inspection it was found there was not a main disconnet in the
electrical panel. The sellers agreed to have one installed. They
just sent us note from a contractor stating "The panel in question is
a spIit bus bar panel with a main breaker for lighting and
receptacles only. Although it is outdated it is not an unsafe system.
These panels were
used frequently in new construction through the 1970's. (The house was
built in 1982)

My question: Is this something that really should be updated? We have
2 small children plus my parents lost everything in an electrical
fire several years back so I am pretty concerned.

Any advice, thoughts, would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

HotRdd wrote:
For the cost of installing a main disconnect or a new panel I think the
piece of mind would be worth it.



But I don't think the seller is obligated to pay for it since split bus
panels are certainly code compliant.

It seems way to common anymore for "home inspectors" to decide that
everything should be as if it were done last week according to current
practices.

Last time I heard the US was in a buyers market. Whether the home owner
"has" to replace it or not does not mean it can't be negotiated in the
selliung price.


"George" wrote in message
. ..
HotRdd wrote:
For the cost of installing a main disconnect or a new panel I think the
piece of mind would be worth it.



But I don't think the seller is obligated to pay for it since split bus
panels are certainly code compliant.

It seems way to common anymore for "home inspectors" to decide that
everything should be as if it were done last week according to current
practices.

HotRdd wrote:
Last time I heard the US was in a buyers market. Whether the home owner
"has" to replace it or not does not mean it can't be negotiated in the
selliung price.
....

Like always, that depends on "location, location, location". The major
metro areas are all in the news now with the subprime lending fiasco
(where the rest of us are getting ready to be soaked to subsidize the
fools and greedy who signed up for all these mortgages they couldn't
afford ), but in other areas things are pretty much as they've always
been...

That said, it's a negotiating point, agreed...

--

"dpb" wrote in message ...
HotRdd wrote:
Last time I heard the US was in a buyers market. Whether the home owner
"has" to replace it or not does not mean it can't be negotiated in the
selliung price.
...

Like always, that depends on "location, location, location". The major
metro areas are all in the news now with the subprime lending fiasco
(where the rest of us are getting ready to be soaked to subsidize the
fools and greedy who signed up for all these mortgages they couldn't
afford ), but in other areas things are pretty much as they've always
been...

That said, it's a negotiating point, agreed...

--

Does it matter what it is? We always pay for the fools... Maybe we are fools
for not being fools

dpb wrote:

HotRdd wrote:
Last time I heard the US was in a buyers market. Whether the home owner
"has" to replace it or not does not mean it can't be negotiated in the
selliung price.
...

Like always, that depends on "location, location, location". The major
metro areas are all in the news now with the subprime lending fiasco
(where the rest of us are getting ready to be soaked to subsidize the
fools and greedy who signed up for all these mortgages they couldn't
afford ), but in other areas things are pretty much as they've always
been...

Problem is, it wasn't all "fools and greedy" signing up for mortgages
they couldn't afford per se, a lot of it was predatory lending. The bulk
of the people in trouble now were indeed making their mortgage payments
just fine when the interest rates were reasonable and only had trouble
when the greedy lenders raised those rates through the roof.

All that is necessary to eliminate the so called sub prime meltdown is
to implement an interest rate freeze / cap to punish the greedy lenders
while helping the consumer victims by allowing them to continue paying
their mortgage at sane rates.

The greedy lenders get slapped, but stay afloat due to the fact that
they'd still be receiving payments and still making a more reasonable
profit, the market stabilizes and the victims who had been making their
mortgage payments regularly get to keep their homes and not be further
victimized.

HotRdd wrote:

Last time I heard the US was in a buyers market. Whether the home owner
"has" to replace it or not does not mean it can't be negotiated in the
selliung price.


"George" wrote in message
. ..

HotRdd wrote:

For the cost of installing a main disconnect or a new panel I think the
piece of mind would be worth it.




But I don't think the seller is obligated to pay for it since split bus
panels are certainly code compliant.

It seems way to common anymore for "home inspectors" to decide that
everything should be as if it were done last week according to current
practices.



Hi,
Last year here, people were buying houses without even seeing it. Price
was going up by the day. Most were paying over the list price just to
get it. No time for inspection or such. Now that craze is cooling off.
My neighbor's house, ~2400 sqf 2 story built in 1994 at a cost of ~250K
was sold for 1.25 million 2 months ago. That is what hot economy brought
us, high inflation, high wages, extreme housing shortage, population
influx, increased crime rate, etc. I don't see anything exciting in it.

Tony Hwang wrote:
Hi,
Last year here, people were buying houses without even seeing it.
Price was going up by the day. Most were paying over the list price
just to get it. No time for inspection or such. Now that craze is
cooling off. My neighbor's house, ~2400 sqf 2 story built in 1994 at
a cost of ~250K was sold for 1.25 million 2 months ago.

That is what
hot economy brought us, high inflation,

Current inflation is about 2.36% (50% less than in 2000)

high wages,

Wage growth is 2.4% (latest figures), this is below the inflation rate.

extreme housing shortage, population influx,

increased crime rate, etc.

Most crime rates are down from, say 1995: All violent: 469 vs 684, car
theft: 416 vs. 560, and so on.

I don't see
anything exciting in it.

HotRdd wrote:
Last time I heard the US was in a buyers market. Whether the home owner
"has" to replace it or not does not mean it can't be negotiated in the
selliung price.


"George" wrote in message
. ..
HotRdd wrote:
For the cost of installing a main disconnect or a new panel I think the
piece of mind would be worth it.



But I don't think the seller is obligated to pay for it since split bus
panels are certainly code compliant.

It seems way to common anymore for "home inspectors" to decide that
everything should be as if it were done last week according to current
practices.


Anything can be negotiated. But it is just plain silly for "home
inspectors" to critique a property on current standards.

If someone is buying a used house they typically are already paying a
lower price than a comparable new house.

George wrote:
HotRdd wrote:

For the cost of installing a main disconnect or a new panel I think
the piece of mind would be worth it.



But I don't think the seller is obligated to pay for it since split bus
panels are certainly code compliant.

It seems way to common anymore for "home inspectors" to decide that
everything should be as if it were done last week according to current
practices.
Hmmm,
Yet, I never ran into a HI who are competent in anything, electrical,
plumbing or sutructual matters overall.
Piece of paer saying certified HI, whatever hanging on the wall does not
mean much.

wrote:
We are in the process of buying a home and as part of the home
inspection it was found there was not a main disconnet in the
electrical panel. The sellers agreed to have one installed. They
just sent us note from a contractor stating "The panel in question is
a spIit bus bar panel with a main breaker for lighting and
receptacles only. Although it is outdated it is not an unsafe system.
These panels were
used frequently in new construction through the 1970's. (The house was
built in 1982)

My question: Is this something that really should be updated? We have
2 small children plus my parents lost everything in an electrical
fire several years back so I am pretty concerned.

Any advice, thoughts, would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks




What brand is it? If it's Federal Pacific or Zinsco, you should replace
it in my opinion. (Has nothing to do with the split bus, but they are
fire hazards)

Bob

zxcvbob wrote:
wrote:
We are in the process of buying a home and as part of the home
inspection it was found there was not a main disconnet in the
electrical panel. The sellers agreed to have one installed. They
just sent us note from a contractor stating "The panel in question is
a spIit bus bar panel with a main breaker for lighting and
receptacles only. Although it is outdated it is not an unsafe system.
These panels were
used frequently in new construction through the 1970's. (The house was
built in 1982)

My question: Is this something that really should be updated? We have
2 small children plus my parents lost everything in an electrical
fire several years back so I am pretty concerned.

Any advice, thoughts, would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks




What brand is it? If it's Federal Pacific or Zinsco, you should replace
it in my opinion. (Has nothing to do with the split bus, but they are
fire hazards)

Bob


Sorry for replying to my own post, but I realized that last sentence was
ambiguous. Zinsco and Federal Pacific boxes are fire hazards. Split
bus is unusual these days, but OK.

Bob

Here's a thought. Tell the current owner your concerns and that you want a
new panel installed. If it's to much offer to settle on a main disconnect,
installed, either inside or outside. Once the disconnect is installed it's
simple enough to swap in a new panel down the road.



wrote in message
ups.com...
We are in the process of buying a home and as part of the home
inspection it was found there was not a main disconnet in the
electrical panel. The sellers agreed to have one installed. They
just sent us note from a contractor stating "The panel in question is
a spIit bus bar panel with a main breaker for lighting and
receptacles only. Although it is outdated it is not an unsafe system.
These panels were
used frequently in new construction through the 1970's. (The house was
built in 1982)

My question: Is this something that really should be updated? We have
2 small children plus my parents lost everything in an electrical
fire several years back so I am pretty concerned.

Any advice, thoughts, would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

James,

You have some concern about the lack of a main breaker and the seller has
agreed to remedy this by installing a main breaker. What else do you need to
know? Are the sellers refusing to honor their word?

Dave M.

The problem with split buss panels is that at the time the NEC allowed up to
6 main disconnects in them. In the original installation there wouldn't be a
problem as the electrician calculated the load of the building and sized the
mains accordingly, the problems with split buss, multiple main panels arise
later, when other people, not always professionals add to the original
mains, without recalculating the entire building load, and possibly
overloading the main entrance feeder. This situation can't occur when the
entrance feeder has only one disconnect. In my opinion, it isn't a
violation, so I don't believe it's something the seller should be
responsible for paying for, however for my own peace of mind I would have a
professional do a load calculation, or have a single main disconnect
installed



wrote in message
ups.com...
We are in the process of buying a home and as part of the home
inspection it was found there was not a main disconnet in the
electrical panel. The sellers agreed to have one installed. They
just sent us note from a contractor stating "The panel in question is
a spIit bus bar panel with a main breaker for lighting and
receptacles only. Although it is outdated it is not an unsafe system.
These panels were
used frequently in new construction through the 1970's. (The house was
built in 1982)

My question: Is this something that really should be updated? We have
2 small children plus my parents lost everything in an electrical
fire several years back so I am pretty concerned.

Any advice, thoughts, would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

My understanding is that the NEC has, or is going to reduce the number to
two main disconnects


wrote in message
...
On Fri, 7 Sep 2007 19:56:52 -0400, "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:

The problem with split buss panels is that at the time the NEC allowed up
to
6 main disconnects in them.


The NEC still does. I could install a split bus panel tomorrow.

The wording is a bit confusing to me, but it appears that 408.36 says that
you can't have more than two main disconnects in a lighting-appliance
panelboard. The service can still have up to six disconnects, (230.71) which
can all be in one panel, just not a lighting and appliance panel




wrote in message



...
On Fri, 7 Sep 2007 19:56:52 -0400, "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:

The problem with split buss panels is that at the time the NEC allowed up
to
6 main disconnects in them.


The NEC still does. I could install a split bus panel tomorrow.

wrote:
On Fri, 7 Sep 2007 19:56:52 -0400, "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:

The problem with split buss panels is that at the time the NEC allowed up to
6 main disconnects in them.


The NEC still does. I could install a split bus panel tomorrow.

While that is true it does not tell the whole story. It would need a
main disconnect ahead of it or it could not contain more than ten
percent of it's over current devices sized at thirty amperes single pole
or smaller.
--
Tom Horne

wrote:
We are in the process of buying a home and as part of the home
inspection it was found there was not a main disconnet in the
electrical panel. The sellers agreed to have one installed. They
just sent us note from a contractor stating "The panel in question is
a spIit bus bar panel with a main breaker for lighting and
receptacles only. Although it is outdated it is not an unsafe system.
These panels were
used frequently in new construction through the 1970's. (The house was
built in 1982)

My question: Is this something that really should be updated? We have
2 small children plus my parents lost everything in an electrical
fire several years back so I am pretty concerned.

Any advice, thoughts, would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks


The house has a main disconnect, it's called a meter.
Pull the meter and the power goes off. I've heard of
firefighters doing it with a fire ax. One or two whacks
and the power is off.

[8~{} Uncle Monster

On Sep 8, 12:56?am, Uncle Monster wrote:
wrote:
We are in the process of buying a home and as part of the home
inspection it was found there was not a main disconnet in the
electrical panel. The sellers agreed to have one installed. They
just sent us note from a contractor stating "The panel in question is
a spIit bus bar panel with a main breaker for lighting and
receptacles only. Although it is outdated it is not an unsafe system.
These panels were
used frequently in new construction through the 1970's. (The house was
built in 1982)

My question: Is this something that really should be updated? We have
2 small children plus my parents lost everything in an electrical
fire several years back so I am pretty concerned.

Any advice, thoughts, would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

The house has a main disconnect, it's called a meter.
Pull the meter and the power goes off. I've heard of
firefighters doing it with a fire ax. One or two whacks
and the power is off.

[8~{} Uncle Monster- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

attacking a meter with a fire ax is in itself a major fire shock
hazard.

way better and easier to break seal pull meter. I have done it a
couple times for good reasons

a free fall of the housing market will kill our economy, way better to
change the law and prop up the bad lenders till things recover.

unless you want a major recession??

wrote:
....
a free fall of the housing market will kill our economy, way better to
change the law and prop up the bad lenders till things recover.
....

No and absolutely not.

--

wrote in message
a free fall of the housing market will kill our economy, way better to
change the law and prop up the bad lenders till things recover.

unless you want a major recession??


I don't think it will happen. The bad lenders put themselves in this
position by sucking in people with easy deals that they cannot afford. They
don't deserve to be in business. They'd be in far better straights if
they'd help themselves by helping the borrower.

There is no simple answer and no one simple solution.

I pass a house on my way to work very day. New construction, offered for
$385,000 and no money down. No one should be allowed to buy that much of a
house with no money down. If you can afford the monthly payment, you can
afford to put money away for a year and have a least a little equity with a
small deposit.

Lenders offering interest only loans should be banned from ever lending
money, as should borrowers who'd take a loan like that.

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
wrote in message
a free fall of the housing market will kill our economy, way better to
change the law and prop up the bad lenders till things recover.

unless you want a major recession??


I don't think it will happen. The bad lenders put themselves in this
position by sucking in people with easy deals that they cannot afford. They
don't deserve to be in business. They'd be in far better straights if
they'd help themselves by helping the borrower.

There is no simple answer and no one simple solution.

I pass a house on my way to work very day. New construction, offered for
$385,000 and no money down. No one should be allowed to buy that much of a
house with no money down. If you can afford the monthly payment, you can
afford to put money away for a year and have a least a little equity with a
small deposit.

Lenders offering interest only loans should be banned from ever lending
money, as should borrowers who'd take a loan like that.

Yes, yes, no, yes, no, no...

Intervention in the financial markets is the most guaranteed way to
screw it up even worse. There's nothing going on now that a few months
won't sort out and if it weren't for the 24/7 news making such a to-do
over it, most wouldn't even know anything was going on.

It boils down to another example of Greenspan's earlier warning of
"unfettered exuberance" -- there will be a correction but that is well
and good.

Lenders will learn by example that not screening loan applicants for
ability to repay and excessive credit can bite far more effectively than
if they're bailed out.

It simply isn't a large enough segment to make more than a short term
retreat imo, realistically. However, sufficient "sky is falling"
rhetoric from the aforementioned sources could possibly instigate a
panic and we have seen, I think, some indications of such irrational
over responses in the market volatility. But, w/ time, it will also
dampen out imo...

--

wrote:


a free fall of the housing market will kill our economy, way better to
change the law and prop up the bad lenders till things recover.


Unlikely, the only thing that is needed is absolutely nothing. The
greedy clueless lenders will go out of business or take a big hit as
they should. Things will be a little rocky for a while and then it will
all average out. The last think we need is for the gov't to reach into
our pockets to bail them out.


unless you want a major recession??