Working in Cellulose Insulation...
 

Howdy all. Does anyone have a tip for working in an attic covered with
cellulose insulation? We have knob and tube wiring in the attic
covered with mounds of insulation at least 18 inches thick. I need a
way to get the cellulose insulation out of the way so I can trace the
wiring and inspect/replace it. I can't just shovel the stuff out of
the way because of the wiring. I'm tempted to take my leaf blower up
there this weekend and see how that works. Anyway, I'm open for
suggestions.

Thanks,
Felder

Working in Cellulose Insulation...
 

Felder wrote:
Howdy all. Does anyone have a tip for working in an attic covered with
cellulose insulation? We have knob and tube wiring in the attic
covered with mounds of insulation at least 18 inches thick. I need a
way to get the cellulose insulation out of the way so I can trace the
wiring and inspect/replace it. I can't just shovel the stuff out of
the way because of the wiring. I'm tempted to take my leaf blower up
there this weekend and see how that works. Anyway, I'm open for
suggestions.

Thanks,
Felder


Argh! Leaf blower will make a huge mess and dust
throughout the house, I bet. In addition, you will need
substantial respirator protection. Consider a fan pump
fresh air into the work area as well.

How about experimenting on a smaller scale with a vacuum
cleaner connected to blow? If not a shovel, maybe a hoe?

Technically, cellulose shouldn't cover K&T. However,
one large city (Philly, I think) did a study involving
a large number of city houses retrofitted with cellulose
and found no problems.

Link he
http://www.waptac.org/doclib/openfile.asp?id=605

Jim

Working in Cellulose Insulation...
 

On Aug 21, 7:51 pm, Felder wrote:
Howdy all. Does anyone have a tip for working in an attic covered with
cellulose insulation? We have knob and tube wiring in the attic
covered with mounds of insulation at least 18 inches thick. I need a
way to get the cellulose insulation out of the way so I can trace the
wiring and inspect/replace it. I can't just shovel the stuff out of
the way because of the wiring. I'm tempted to take my leaf blower up
there this weekend and see how that works. Anyway, I'm open for
suggestions.

Thanks,
Felder

ahhhhhhh welcome to my nightmare. well a dust pan fits between most
bays nicely and maybe a bunch of trash bags, bag some and remove then
pile some of it in areas already inspected or void of wiring. hmmm
gonna be some cussin goin on.

Working in Cellulose Insulation...
 

Felder wrote:

Howdy all. Does anyone have a tip for working in an attic covered with
cellulose insulation? We have knob and tube wiring in the attic
covered with mounds of insulation at least 18 inches thick. I need a
way to get the cellulose insulation out of the way so I can trace the
wiring and inspect/replace it. I can't just shovel the stuff out of
the way because of the wiring. I'm tempted to take my leaf blower up
there this weekend and see how that works. Anyway, I'm open for
suggestions.

Thanks,
Felder


Can you just scoop it with gloved hands?
How about a large shop vac?

BTW, insulation over K&T wiring maybe kind of iffy.
I am not sure, but you may want to check into that.
It seems that NEC prohibits insulation over "concealed knob and tube"
(392.12 NEC 2005),
but seems to be silent on "open wiring on insulators" (Article 398 NEC 2005).
Various jurisdictions seem to sometimes have different rules than NEC.

Working in Cellulose Insulation...
 

"Felder" wrote in message
ups.com...
Howdy all. Does anyone have a tip for working in an attic covered with
cellulose insulation? We have knob and tube wiring in the attic
covered with mounds of insulation at least 18 inches thick. I need a
way to get the cellulose insulation out of the way so I can trace the
wiring and inspect/replace it. I can't just shovel the stuff out of
the way because of the wiring. I'm tempted to take my leaf blower up
there this weekend and see how that works. Anyway, I'm open for
suggestions.

Thanks,
Felder


A contractor quoted me $2000. I bought a Harbor Freight dust collector for
$180. I stuck the blower in the center of my attic and ran 30 feet of 4
inch pipe out the end of my attic. I hooked up two sets of vacuum hoses to
the blower and my wife and I vacuumed the attic clean in two days. We
shoveled the pile of insulation into lawn bags and took it to the dump.

Working in Cellulose Insulation...
 

Why'd you throw it away? you could have blown it back in when you were
done.

steve

"Pat" wrote in message
...

"Felder" wrote in message
ups.com...
Howdy all. Does anyone have a tip for working in an attic covered with
cellulose insulation? We have knob and tube wiring in the attic
covered with mounds of insulation at least 18 inches thick. I need a
way to get the cellulose insulation out of the way so I can trace the
wiring and inspect/replace it. I can't just shovel the stuff out of
the way because of the wiring. I'm tempted to take my leaf blower up
there this weekend and see how that works. Anyway, I'm open for
suggestions.

Thanks,
Felder


A contractor quoted me $2000. I bought a Harbor Freight dust collector
for $180. I stuck the blower in the center of my attic and ran 30 feet of
4 inch pipe out the end of my attic. I hooked up two sets of vacuum hoses
to the blower and my wife and I vacuumed the attic clean in two days. We
shoveled the pile of insulation into lawn bags and took it to the dump.

Working in Cellulose Insulation...
 

"Steve Barker" wrote in message
...
Why'd you throw it away? you could have blown it back in when you were
done.


I considered it. Decided to have new fiberglass installed after the work is
done. As it turned out it would have been rained on anyway. I put the
blower back in the box and sold it for almost as much as I paid for it.
Made the job very inexpensive.

Working in Cellulose Insulation...
 

"Steve Barker" wrote in message
...
Why'd you throw it away? you could have blown it back in when you were
done.


Tried to give it away. No one wanted it.

Working in Cellulose Insulation...
 

"Felder" wrote in message
ups.com...
Howdy all. Does anyone have a tip for working in an attic covered with
cellulose insulation? We have knob and tube wiring in the attic
covered with mounds of insulation at least 18 inches thick. I need a
way to get the cellulose insulation out of the way so I can trace the
wiring and inspect/replace it. I can't just shovel the stuff out of
the way because of the wiring. I'm tempted to take my leaf blower up
there this weekend and see how that works. Anyway, I'm open for
suggestions.


Broom.

Working in Cellulose Insulation...
 

On Jan 29, 2:11�pm, "Bob F" wrote:
"Felder" wrote in message

ups.com...

Howdy all. Does anyone have a tip for working in an attic covered with
cellulose insulation? We have knob and tube wiring in the attic
covered with mounds of insulation at least 18 inches thick. I need a
way to get the cellulose insulation out of the way so I can trace the
wiring and inspect/replace it. I can't just shovel the stuff out of
the way because of the wiring. I'm tempted to take my leaf blower up
there this weekend and see how that works. Anyway, I'm open for
suggestions.

Broom.

YOU SHOULD NEVER COVER KNOB AND TUBE WITH ANY INSULATION EVER!!

Its past time to rewire your home, and if you have a house fire its
very possible insurance wouldnt cover your loss

Working in Cellulose Insulation...
 

" wrote:

On Jan 29, 2:11�pm, "Bob F" wrote:
"Felder" wrote in message

ups.com...

Howdy all. Does anyone have a tip for working in an attic covered with
cellulose insulation? We have knob and tube wiring in the attic
covered with mounds of insulation at least 18 inches thick. I need a
way to get the cellulose insulation out of the way so I can trace the
wiring and inspect/replace it. I can't just shovel the stuff out of
the way because of the wiring. I'm tempted to take my leaf blower up
there this weekend and see how that works. Anyway, I'm open for
suggestions.

Broom.

YOU SHOULD NEVER COVER KNOB AND TUBE WITH ANY INSULATION EVER!!

Its past time to rewire your home, and if you have a house fire its
very possible insurance wouldnt cover your loss

Second that, *HUGE* fire risk there. K&T wiring was and still is quite
safe - when it is left as it was when it was installed - all the risk of
K&T comes from people modifying it, over fusing it, burying it in
insulation and other changes.

At this point the only practical thing to do is to vacuum it out with
the biggest shop vac you can get (rent a true industrial one) and empty
the vac'd insulation into some really big moving boxes for temporary
storage. After removing all the insulation, remove all the K&T wiring
and replace it to current code. After the wiring issues are resolved,
rent an insulation blower and plow the insulation back into the attic.

Remember your PPE - Goggles and respirator, as well as gloves, knee pads
and a hard hat (roofing nails to the head hurt).

Working in Cellulose Insulation...
 

On Jan 29, 5:43Â*pm, "Pete C." wrote:
" wrote:

On Jan 29, 2:11�pm, "Bob F" wrote:
"Felder" wrote in message

oups.com...

Howdy all. Does anyone have a tip for working in an attic covered with
cellulose insulation? We have knob and tube wiring in the attic
covered with mounds of insulation at least 18 inches thick. I need a
way to get the cellulose insulation out of the way so I can trace the
wiring and inspect/replace it. I can't just shovel the stuff out of
the way because of the wiring. I'm tempted to take my leaf blower up
there this weekend and see how that works. Anyway, I'm open for
suggestions.

Broom.

YOU SHOULD NEVER COVER KNOB AND TUBE WITH ANY INSULATION EVER!!

Its past time to rewire your home, and if you have a house fire its
very possible insurance wouldnt cover your loss

Second that, *HUGE* fire risk there. K&T wiring was and still is quite
safe - when it is left as it was when it was installed - all the risk of
K&T comes from people modifying it, over fusing it, burying it in
insulation and other changes.

At this point the only practical thing to do is to vacuum it out with
the biggest shop vac you can get (rent a true industrial one) and empty
the vac'd insulation into some really big moving boxes for temporary
storage. After removing all the insulation, remove all the K&T wiring
and replace it to current code. After the wiring issues are resolved,
rent an insulation blower and plow the insulation back into the attic.

Remember your PPE - Goggles and respirator, as well as gloves, knee pads
and a hard hat (roofing nails to the head hurt).- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

and check all the walls too. some insurance companies dont cover K&T
wiring and it can be very hard to sell a home with K&T because the
buyer cant get homeowners insurance

Working in Cellulose Insulation...
 

Working in Cellulose Insulation...
 

Bob F wrote:
"Felder" wrote in message
....

there this weekend and see how that works. Anyway, I'm open for
suggestions.


Broom.

Don't suppose responding here in January will help OP much for a coming
weekend last August... :)

--

Working in Cellulose Insulation...
 

Pete C. wrote:
" wrote:
On Jan 29, 2:11�pm, "Bob F" wrote:
"Felder" wrote in message

ups.com...

Howdy all. Does anyone have a tip for working in an attic covered with
cellulose insulation? We have knob and tube wiring in the attic
covered with mounds of insulation at least 18 inches thick. I need a
way to get the cellulose insulation out of the way so I can trace the
wiring and inspect/replace it. I can't just shovel the stuff out of
the way because of the wiring. I'm tempted to take my leaf blower up
there this weekend and see how that works. Anyway, I'm open for
suggestions.
Broom.
YOU SHOULD NEVER COVER KNOB AND TUBE WITH ANY INSULATION EVER!!

Its past time to rewire your home, and if you have a house fire its
very possible insurance wouldnt cover your loss

Second that, *HUGE* fire risk there. K&T wiring was and still is quite
safe - when it is left as it was when it was installed - all the risk of
K&T comes from people modifying it, over fusing it, burying it in
insulation and other changes.
..
It has been a code violation to insulation after about 1987 (394.12-5).

Never cover? Huge fire risk?
http://www.waptac.org/sp.asp?id=7190
(originally posted by Phil Munro) is a report to the Illinois Department
of Commerce and Community Affairs on adding building insulation around
existing K&T wiring. No record of hazard was found in the large number
of K&T installations that had insulation added around them. Also
addresses how some jurisdictions have handled the code aspects.


If the post was timely, I would suggest moving cellulose with a large
piece of cardboard. (good eye Duane)

--
bud--

Working in Cellulose Insulation...
 

On Wed, 30 Jan 2008 11:28:50 -0800 (PST), wrote:
K&T was designed for free air flow around conductors at all times.

Yup.

insulation prevents that and can cause overheating and ultimately a
fire

Well, K&T was designed not to get significantly hot during operation.
However if the fuses have been replaced with bigger units it might get
hot, and then as before, the insulation didn't cause the problem, but it
did lessen the margin for error.

since connections are soldered in walls, get solder hot enough
and it will fail

Not proper K&T solder connections. The solder is just on there to seal
the connection (so it won't corrode) and is not necessary for mechanical
strength (because it has none) or electrical conductivity (because lead
and tin are not that great of conductor). If you have ever tried to
take apart such a joint, you would know what I mean.

A well done joint will not even drip molten solder unless mechanically
disturbed while the solder is liquid, but no worry even if it does. For
a summary of K&T splicing, see this pdf:
http://www.markhellerelectric.com/wusplice.pdf I didn't create it, but
whoever wrote it did a good job.

sdb
--
What's seen on your screen? http://PcScreenWatch.com
sdbuse1 on mailhost bigfoot.com

Working in Cellulose Insulation...
 

The problem with this theory is that it's never been proven. There's never
been a fire that was proven to be because of K&T wiring that was covered by
insulation. It sounds good on paper and gave the NEC boys something else to
screw people over about, but in all reality, it just doesn't happen.

s


wrote in message
...

K&T was designed for free air flow around conductors at all times.
insulation prevents that and can cause overheating and ultimately a
fire since connections are soldered in walls, get solder hot enough
and it will fail

Working in Cellulose Insulation...
 

"bud--" wrote in message news:762bb$47a03604$4213ea39
Never cover? Huge fire risk?
http://www.waptac.org/sp.asp?id=7190
(originally posted by Phil Munro) is a report to the Illinois Department of
Commerce and Community Affairs on adding building insulation around existing
K&T wiring. No record of hazard was found in the large number of K&T
installations that had insulation added around them. Also addresses how some
jurisdictions have handled the code aspects.

Thanks for that. It's a good read, and could affect me since I'm in Washington.

Working in Cellulose Insulation...
 

If, as the paper said, K&T was typically #12 wire fused for 15 Amps, I can
certainly see why the worry is exagerated.


"S. Barker" wrote in message
...
The problem with this theory is that it's never been proven. There's never
been a fire that was proven to be because of K&T wiring that was covered by
insulation. It sounds good on paper and gave the NEC boys something else to
screw people over about, but in all reality, it just doesn't happen.

s


wrote in message
...

K&T was designed for free air flow around conductors at all times.
insulation prevents that and can cause overheating and ultimately a
fire since connections are soldered in walls, get solder hot enough
and it will fail

Working in Cellulose Insulation...
 

On Feb 12, 8:04�pm, "Bob F" wrote:
If, as the paper said, K&T was typically #12 wire fused for 15 Amps, I can
certainly see why the worry is exagerated.

"S. Barker" wrote in message

...



The problem with this theory is that it's never been proven. �There's never
been a fire that was proven to be because of K&T wiring that was covered by
insulation. �It sounds good on paper and gave the NEC boys something else to
screw people over about, but in all reality, �it just doesn't happen.

s

wrote in message
...

K&T was designed for free air flow around conductors at all times.
insulation prevents that and can cause overheating and ultimately a
fire since connections are soldered in walls, get solder hot enough
and it will fail- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

is it worth the risk of having K&T covered by cellouse? one has no way
to know what if any repairs modifications and damage that may have
occured over a 100 years or more...............

but hey its your home, doesnt effect anyone but you..............

Working in Cellulose Insulation...
 

wrote:

is it worth the risk of having K&T covered by cellouse? one has no way
to know what if any repairs modifications and damage that may have
occured over a 100 years or more...............

The report to the Illinois Department of Commerce and Community Affairs
http://www.waptac.org/sp.asp?id=7190
did not find evidence of a risk.

You have not provided a link to a reputable source documenting the risk
of K&T in insulation.

Or the risk of K&T.

Or that rubber insulation burns at a low temperature.

Just more FUD.

--
bud--