I built a lake home for some clients and later installed an
underground drop to a pedestal with a 240 volt disconnect
(exactly like an AC disconnect). From there, the people who
built the dock tied into the disconnect to run wire out to the
dock.

Then the rains came. The lake rose almost 35 feet in a matter
of weeks. More rain. The lake rose to flood stage and
submerged the pedestal. Yet power remained to the dock. The
pedestal was under about 15' of water, yet did not trip the
breaker at the main service. The owner called me and asked if
this was dangerous and I said yes, turn off the breaker at the
breaker box, which he did.

My question is: why did the breaker not trip when the
disconnect was submerged? It is not waterproof by any means.

--
Robert Allison
Rimshot, Inc.
Georgetown, TX

On Aug 16, 10:45 am, Robert Allison wrote:
I built a lake home for some clients and later installed an
underground drop to a pedestal with a 240 volt disconnect
(exactly like an AC disconnect). From there, the people who
built the dock tied into the disconnect to run wire out to the
dock.

Then the rains came. The lake rose almost 35 feet in a matter
of weeks. More rain. The lake rose to flood stage and
submerged the pedestal. Yet power remained to the dock. The
pedestal was under about 15' of water, yet did not trip the
breaker at the main service. The owner called me and asked if
this was dangerous and I said yes, turn off the breaker at the
breaker box, which he did.

My question is: why did the breaker not trip when the
disconnect was submerged? It is not waterproof by any means.

--
Robert Allison
Rimshot, Inc.
Georgetown, TX

It did not exceed the current rating, perhaps you might consider
upgrading to gfci?

In article aqZwi.10204$Ns6.6028@trnddc01,
Robert Allison wrote:

I built a lake home for some clients and later installed an
underground drop to a pedestal with a 240 volt disconnect
(exactly like an AC disconnect). From there, the people who
built the dock tied into the disconnect to run wire out to the
dock.

Then the rains came. The lake rose almost 35 feet in a matter
of weeks. More rain. The lake rose to flood stage and
submerged the pedestal. Yet power remained to the dock. The
pedestal was under about 15' of water, yet did not trip the
breaker at the main service. The owner called me and asked if
this was dangerous and I said yes, turn off the breaker at the
breaker box, which he did.

My question is: why did the breaker not trip when the
disconnect was submerged? It is not waterproof by any means.

It's probably one of those new-fangled distilled water lakes that the
military is experimenting with.

On Aug 16, 9:45 am, Robert Allison wrote:
I built a lake home for some clients and later installed an
underground drop to a pedestal with a 240 volt disconnect
(exactly like an AC disconnect). From there, the people who
built the dock tied into the disconnect to run wire out to the
dock.

Then the rains came. The lake rose almost 35 feet in a matter
of weeks. More rain. The lake rose to flood stage and
submerged the pedestal. Yet power remained to the dock. The
pedestal was under about 15' of water, yet did not trip the
breaker at the main service. The owner called me and asked if
this was dangerous and I said yes, turn off the breaker at the
breaker box, which he did.

My question is: why did the breaker not trip when the
disconnect was submerged? It is not waterproof by any means.

--
Robert Allison
Rimshot, Inc.
Georgetown, TX

Sounds like the whole feed should have a 220 gfci breaker in the
house. Only luck kept someone from getting jolted. Same as you would
do for a hot tub.

On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 14:45:26 GMT, Robert Allison
wrote Re Electricity under water:

My question is: why did the breaker not trip when the
disconnect was submerged? It is not waterproof by any means.

The conductivity of the water was not sufficient to allow enough
current flow to trip the breaker??
--
To email me directly, remove CLUTTER.

Probably the same reason that an open motor column sump pump of mine has
several times been flooded totally underwater and still started and pumped
out the water when power was restored. While fresh water will conduct
electricity, it doesn't do it well and would prefer to travel through our
bodies if they were in the water close to the source.




"Robert Allison" wrote in message
news:aqZwi.10204$Ns6.6028@trnddc01...
I built a lake home for some clients and later installed an
underground drop to a pedestal with a 240 volt disconnect
(exactly like an AC disconnect). From there, the people who
built the dock tied into the disconnect to run wire out to the
dock.

Then the rains came. The lake rose almost 35 feet in a matter
of weeks. More rain. The lake rose to flood stage and
submerged the pedestal. Yet power remained to the dock. The
pedestal was under about 15' of water, yet did not trip the
breaker at the main service. The owner called me and asked if
this was dangerous and I said yes, turn off the breaker at the
breaker box, which he did.

My question is: why did the breaker not trip when the
disconnect was submerged? It is not waterproof by any means.

--
Robert Allison Rimshot, Inc.
Georgetown, TX

beecrofter wrote:
On Aug 16, 10:45 am, Robert Allison wrote:
I built a lake home for some clients and later installed an
underground drop to a pedestal with a 240 volt disconnect
(exactly like an AC disconnect). From there, the people who
built the dock tied into the disconnect to run wire out to the
dock.

Then the rains came. The lake rose almost 35 feet in a matter
of weeks. More rain. The lake rose to flood stage and
submerged the pedestal. Yet power remained to the dock. The
pedestal was under about 15' of water, yet did not trip the
breaker at the main service. The owner called me and asked if
this was dangerous and I said yes, turn off the breaker at the
breaker box, which he did.

My question is: why did the breaker not trip when the
disconnect was submerged? It is not waterproof by any means.

--
Robert Allison
Rimshot, Inc.
Georgetown, TX

It did not exceed the current rating, perhaps you might consider
upgrading to gfci?

I total agree with you. You wonder the size of the existing breaker?

--
Moe Jones
HVAC Service Technician
Energy Equalizers Inc.
Houston, Texas
www.EnergyEqualizers.com

Robert Allison wrote:

I built a lake home for some clients and later installed an
underground drop to a pedestal with a 240 volt disconnect
(exactly like an AC disconnect). From there, the people who
built the dock tied into the disconnect to run wire out to the
dock.

Then the rains came. The lake rose almost 35 feet in a matter
of weeks. More rain. The lake rose to flood stage and
submerged the pedestal. Yet power remained to the dock. The
pedestal was under about 15' of water, yet did not trip the
breaker at the main service. The owner called me and asked if
this was dangerous and I said yes, turn off the breaker at the
breaker box, which he did.

My question is: why did the breaker not trip when the
disconnect was submerged? It is not waterproof by any means.

Kill any mermaids?

--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

Robert Allison wrote in news:aqZwi.10204$Ns6.6028
@trnddc01:

I built a lake home for some clients and later installed an
underground drop to a pedestal with a 240 volt disconnect
(exactly like an AC disconnect). From there, the people who
built the dock tied into the disconnect to run wire out to the
dock.

Then the rains came. The lake rose almost 35 feet in a matter
of weeks. More rain. The lake rose to flood stage and
submerged the pedestal. Yet power remained to the dock. The
pedestal was under about 15' of water, yet did not trip the
breaker at the main service. The owner called me and asked if
this was dangerous and I said yes, turn off the breaker at the
breaker box, which he did.

My question is: why did the breaker not trip when the
disconnect was submerged? It is not waterproof by any means.



Had a friend with a very old stone wall foundation, basement, dirt floor.
Panel box in basement. Bad flooding. Basement totally filled. Power still
on in house!

Check this out though. Calls power company. Fills them in. Wanna know what
they told him? Are ya ready? That's right, "Go turn off the main
breaker"!!!

Al Bundy wrote:
Robert Allison wrote in
news:aqZwi.10204$Ns6.6028 @trnddc01:

I built a lake home for some clients and later installed an
underground drop to a pedestal with a 240 volt disconnect
(exactly like an AC disconnect). From there, the people who
built the dock tied into the disconnect to run wire out to the
dock.

Then the rains came. The lake rose almost 35 feet in a matter
of weeks. More rain. The lake rose to flood stage and
submerged the pedestal. Yet power remained to the dock. The
pedestal was under about 15' of water, yet did not trip the
breaker at the main service. The owner called me and asked if
this was dangerous and I said yes, turn off the breaker at the
breaker box, which he did.

My question is: why did the breaker not trip when the
disconnect was submerged? It is not waterproof by any means.



Had a friend with a very old stone wall foundation, basement, dirt
floor. Panel box in basement. Bad flooding. Basement totally filled.
Power still on in house!

Check this out though. Calls power company. Fills them in. Wanna know
what they told him? Are ya ready? That's right, "Go turn off the main
breaker"!!!

I'm thinking the ground system wasn't a very good ground. But you would
think with all the rain, that something should have shorted.

--
Zyp

On Aug 16, 8:31 pm, Al Bundy wrote:
Robert Allison wrote in news:aqZwi.10204$Ns6.6028
@trnddc01:



I built a lake home for some clients and later installed an
underground drop to a pedestal with a 240 volt disconnect
(exactly like an AC disconnect). From there, the people who
built the dock tied into the disconnect to run wire out to the
dock.

Then the rains came. The lake rose almost 35 feet in a matter
of weeks. More rain. The lake rose to flood stage and
submerged the pedestal. Yet power remained to the dock. The
pedestal was under about 15' of water, yet did not trip the
breaker at the main service. The owner called me and asked if
this was dangerous and I said yes, turn off the breaker at the
breaker box, which he did.

My question is: why did the breaker not trip when the
disconnect was submerged? It is not waterproof by any means.

Had a friend with a very old stone wall foundation, basement, dirt floor.
Panel box in basement. Bad flooding. Basement totally filled. Power still
on in house!

Check this out though. Calls power company. Fills them in. Wanna know what
they told him? Are ya ready? That's right, "Go turn off the main
breaker"!!!

How about...break the seal and pull the meter!

On Aug 16, 9:45 am, Robert Allison wrote:
[...]
Then the rains came.[...] The pedestal was under about 15' of
water, yet did not trip the breaker at the main service. The owner
called me and asked if this was dangerous and I said yes, turn off
the breaker at the breaker box, which he did.

My question is: why did the breaker not trip when the
disconnect was submerged? It is not waterproof by any means.

Because water is not conductive enough to draw 15amps. It was however
very much a hazard to anyone nearby, since a tiny fraction of an amp
can kill.

"Zyp" wrote in message
news:6Iydna4ETq6sq1jbnZ2dnUVZ_ramnZ2d@championbroa dband.com...
Al Bundy wrote:
Robert Allison wrote in
news:aqZwi.10204$Ns6.6028 @trnddc01:

I built a lake home for some clients and later installed an
underground drop to a pedestal with a 240 volt disconnect
(exactly like an AC disconnect). From there, the people who
built the dock tied into the disconnect to run wire out to the
dock.

Then the rains came. The lake rose almost 35 feet in a matter
of weeks. More rain. The lake rose to flood stage and
submerged the pedestal. Yet power remained to the dock. The
pedestal was under about 15' of water, yet did not trip the
breaker at the main service. The owner called me and asked if
this was dangerous and I said yes, turn off the breaker at the
breaker box, which he did.

My question is: why did the breaker not trip when the
disconnect was submerged? It is not waterproof by any means.



Had a friend with a very old stone wall foundation, basement, dirt
floor. Panel box in basement. Bad flooding. Basement totally filled.
Power still on in house!

Check this out though. Calls power company. Fills them in. Wanna know
what they told him? Are ya ready? That's right, "Go turn off the main
breaker"!!!

I'm thinking the ground system wasn't a very good ground. But you would think
with all the rain, that something should have shorted.

Why would you think that?

Bob

On Aug 17, 10:24 am, "Bob F" wrote:
"Zyp" wrote in message

news:6Iydna4ETq6sq1jbnZ2dnUVZ_ramnZ2d@championbroa dband.com...





Al Bundy wrote:
Robert Allison wrote in
news:aqZwi.10204$Ns6.6028 @trnddc01:

I built a lake home for some clients and later installed an
underground drop to a pedestal with a 240 volt disconnect
(exactly like an AC disconnect). From there, the people who
built the dock tied into the disconnect to run wire out to the
dock.

Then the rains came. The lake rose almost 35 feet in a matter
of weeks. More rain. The lake rose to flood stage and
submerged the pedestal. Yet power remained to the dock. The
pedestal was under about 15' of water, yet did not trip the
breaker at the main service. The owner called me and asked if
this was dangerous and I said yes, turn off the breaker at the
breaker box, which he did.

My question is: why did the breaker not trip when the
disconnect was submerged? It is not waterproof by any means.

Had a friend with a very old stone wall foundation, basement, dirt
floor. Panel box in basement. Bad flooding. Basement totally filled.
Power still on in house!

Check this out though. Calls power company. Fills them in. Wanna know
what they told him? Are ya ready? That's right, "Go turn off the main
breaker"!!!

I'm thinking the ground system wasn't a very good ground. But you would think
with all the rain, that something should have shorted.

Why would you think that?

Bob- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Yes, grounding has nothing to do with this. Have you ever seen a
simple vaporizer that you use when you have a chest cold? If you
take it apart, it's nothing more than two electrodes, about 1/2"
apart, connected straight to the 120V cord. That obviously doens't
trip the breaker either, because the current flow is not anywhere near
the limit. But it is enough flow to vaporize the water. And in the
case of the lake, I'm sure some current was flowing as well. Exactly
how much would depend on how much uninsulated metal was submerged, how
conductive the water was, etc.

writes:

My question is: why did the breaker not trip when the
disconnect was submerged? It is not waterproof by any means.

Water isn't a terribly good conductor. There was probably enough
leakage to ground to trip a GFCI breaker, if you had installed one. But
there wasn't the 15+ amps of leakage (either to ground or to neutral)
required to trip a regular 15 A breaker.

Rain water is actually close to distilled water, which is a very poor
conductor. Pure enough water can be treated as an insulator.

Dave

In article , (Dave Martindale) wrote:
writes:

My question is: why did the breaker not trip when the
disconnect was submerged? It is not waterproof by any means.

Water isn't a terribly good conductor. There was probably enough
leakage to ground to trip a GFCI breaker, if you had installed one. But
there wasn't the 15+ amps of leakage (either to ground or to neutral)
required to trip a regular 15 A breaker.

Rain water is actually close to distilled water, which is a very poor
conductor. Pure enough water can be treated as an insulator.

While true, this is not really relevant, as water is never found in the pure
state in nature.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Doug Miller wrote:

While true, this is not really relevant, as water is never found in
the pure
state in nature.

Not only that, but except for burning Hydrogen in the presence of Oxygen,
all water is "used" water. What that means is that your bottle of "fresh"
Norwegian Spring water was one cattle pee.

"HeyBub" wrote in
:

Doug Miller wrote:

While true, this is not really relevant, as water is never found in
the pure
state in nature.

Not only that, but except for burning Hydrogen in the presence of
Oxygen, all water is "used" water. What that means is that your bottle
of "fresh" Norwegian Spring water was one cattle pee.




Norwegian Spring water was one cattle pee.

The cheap beer I drank some 20+ yrs ago was often referred to as skunk
****.

Seems we owe a lot to the animals of this planet when it comes to what we
drink :-)

In article ,
(Doug Miller) wrote:

In article , (Dave Martindale)
wrote:
writes:

My question is: why did the breaker not trip when the
disconnect was submerged? It is not waterproof by any means.

Water isn't a terribly good conductor. There was probably enough
leakage to ground to trip a GFCI breaker, if you had installed one. But
there wasn't the 15+ amps of leakage (either to ground or to neutral)
required to trip a regular 15 A breaker.

Rain water is actually close to distilled water, which is a very poor
conductor. Pure enough water can be treated as an insulator.

While true, this is not really relevant, as water is never found in the pure
state in nature.

Not relevant? Hmm, I disagree. The topic, broadly, is conductivity of
water.

On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 21:48:04 -0500, "HeyBub"
wrote:

Doug Miller wrote:

While true, this is not really relevant, as water is never found in
the pure
state in nature.

Not only that, but except for burning Hydrogen in the presence of Oxygen,
all water is "used" water. What that means is that your bottle of "fresh"
Norwegian Spring water was one cattle pee.


And some of that cattle pee was once a part of George Washington.
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent
force for atheism ever conceived." -- Isaac Asimov

(Doug Miller) writes:

Rain water is actually close to distilled water, which is a very poor
conductor. Pure enough water can be treated as an insulator.

While true, this is not really relevant, as water is never found in the pure
state in nature.

Not absolutely pure, but the degree of impurity determines its
conductivity (more or less). The water molecules themselves don't
conduct worth a darn, but other substances dissolved in it can increase
conductance greatly. Well water usually has high dissolved solids,
while rain water has almost none, and lake water tends to be somewhere
in between. In this case, if the lake rose tens of feet in a short
time due to rain, the water was likely less conductive than usual.

In addition, there was likely less than a square inch of "hot" conductor
exposed to the water, and current flow across this interface will be
proportional to area.

Dave

In article , (Dave Martindale) wrote:
(Doug Miller) writes:

Rain water is actually close to distilled water, which is a very poor
conductor. Pure enough water can be treated as an insulator.

While true, this is not really relevant, as water is never found in the pure
state in nature.

Not absolutely pure, but the degree of impurity determines its
conductivity (more or less). The water molecules themselves don't
conduct worth a darn, but other substances dissolved in it can increase
conductance greatly. Well water usually has high dissolved solids,
while rain water has almost none, and lake water tends to be somewhere
in between. In this case, if the lake rose tens of feet in a short
time due to rain, the water was likely less conductive than usual.

Less than usual, sure, but probably not very much less: the lake didn't rise
tens of feet solely from rainwater falling directly into the lake. (That
would have been one hell of a rainfall, no?) The rise had to be due almost
entirely to water falling onto land in the lake's drainage basin, and hence
the water entering the lake was mostly land runoff -- and couldn't possibly
have been pure rainwater.

In addition, there was likely less than a square inch of "hot" conductor
exposed to the water, and current flow across this interface will be
proportional to area.

Exactly so.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.