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Roofing Question - Clarification
On Jul 7, 5:14 pm, "SteveB" wrote:
There's been a lot said here about deposits. Deposits are usual and customary in today's market for custom work, special orders, and other special circumstances agreed upon in advance by both parties of the contract. I started out my steel erection contracting business doing ornamental metal in my garage. 50% down because it was custom work, and 50% upon installation. I did about two years of this before I grew and got into the commercial market and got my contractor's license. In that time, I was jerked around by so many homeowners that I was sick of it. Once I took off commercially, I changed policies. If anyone said ANYTHING about the deposit on custom work, I'd just put a big X on my copy, and tell them to call me. If they did call back for the work, I'd say that I was just too busy and they could call back every three months. Anyone who grumped about paying a deposit for custom work would grump about everything else, too. Usually they called me back with some long tale of woe about how bad a job they had gotten at a "bargain" price, and could I come fix it. "Sure, a truck and two men are $95 per hour." More wailing. Once I got commercial, the word "deposit" never came up. They pay when the job is FINISHED AND INSPECTED. Or they do progress payments. And then it may take a while for the girl to cut the check. So, while I say deposits are bad and unnecessary, I must admit that sometimes .................. The main thing is to know your contractor, have recourse, see their licensing and insurance, and check things out. As for homeowners paying for stuff up front, I have heard too many horror stories. It's like the drunk who asks for a buck to get something to eat. You offer to take him and buy him a burger. No, they want the buck. If the contractor can't get the materials, YOU buy them and dispense them as used. But NOOOOO, they want the deposit. Many have written here, both the informed and the clueless. It is different with different types of businesses, and areas. But business is business, and it's just not a smart idea to pay for something you don't get. Do you even read the stuff you write before you hit send? I know you don't think about it. A little while ago you were shouting NEVER PAY FOR WORK UP FRONT, now you're telling us that you customarily did business that way? Then you're telling us that you left the deposit thing behind when you went into commercial work. WTF? Sure, there's no difference between commercial and residential work, is there? Sheesh. R |
Roofing Question
On Jul 7, 2:17 pm, "Nancy Young" wrote:
"Nancy Young" wrote kjpro @ usenet.com wrote "Nancy Young" wrote I knew this wouldn't pertain to you... as renters never have to hire a contractor! I don't know why this is annoying you but ... no, all the work I've had done on my house, no deposits, except for ordering the kitchen cabinets. I didn't buy them from the contractor. Sounds like a deposit to me... No, I bought them because I knew what I wanted, and the layout. I only started looking for a contractor after the cabinets were sitting in my garage. Ooops, I didn't finish. The contractor brought all the sheetrock, wood trim, electrical stuff, etc etc that was needed for the job. No payment for anything up front. nancy I had my roof repaired last year. This year I got a new roof. Last year I had the valley repaired and did not pay anything up front. The company doing the job was a very large company. This year we decided it was time to replace the old tile roof with shingles before the price got too high for shingles. We paid one third down up front. The company was a small company with a good reputation. When the job was finished we paid the balance. This is customary here (FL). I don't know of any company that would start work without a down payment. |
Roofing Question
"RicodJour" wrote On Jul 7, 1:26 pm, "Nancy Young" wrote: If I've read it once, I've read it a million times. If the local suppliers don't trust the person enough to extend credit, there is probably a reason. I have never had to front anyone money for supplies. Let me see if I understand you. You want the contractor to front you money (that's what he's doing when he buys materials for your job before you've paid for them), but you don't want to front money to the contractor. Does that sound right to you? I don't think they put any money out. That's the point. Contractors who don't pay their bills have to pay cash, they have to put money out. Needing money for supplies is a red flag. You seem to be assuming that a contractor doesn't have a line of credit if he doesn't extend the line of credit to you. Frankly, I've never had to assume anything. The contractor has always procured the products I ask for and when the job is done, I pay them. I would anticipate paying as the job went along, but if someone is a roofer and they can't even swing the cost for shingles and plywood, I would not be comfortable handing them the few hundred dollars. nancy |
Roofing Question
"SteveB" wrote Must be normal where kjpro is from, as he finds deposits a vital part of business. Deposits are only usual and customary for custom work and special order goods. I agree completely, I wouldn't hesitate to put up, essentially, earnest money for something like that. I'm strictly talking about standard construction materials. nancy |
Roofing Question
"Nancy Young" wrote in message ... "SteveB" wrote Must be normal where kjpro is from, as he finds deposits a vital part of business. Deposits are only usual and customary for custom work and special order goods. I agree completely, I wouldn't hesitate to put up, essentially, earnest money for something like that. I'm strictly talking about standard construction materials. nancy It's comforting to know there's other rational logical people in here. Thanks. Steve |
Roofing Question
On Jul 7, 7:16 pm, "Nancy Young" wrote:
"RicodJour" wrote On Jul 7, 1:26 pm, "Nancy Young" wrote: If I've read it once, I've read it a million times. If the local suppliers don't trust the person enough to extend credit, there is probably a reason. I have never had to front anyone money for supplies. Let me see if I understand you. You want the contractor to front you money (that's what he's doing when he buys materials for your job before you've paid for them), but you don't want to front money to the contractor. Does that sound right to you? I don't think they put any money out. That's the point. Contractors who don't pay their bills have to pay cash, they have to put money out. Needing money for supplies is a red flag. The number of assumptions in those four sentences is astounding. You have not let us know how you establish that the contractor "needs" a deposit as opposed to "wants" a deposit. You have assumed that there is only one way for a contractor to do business - by using supplier credit. What if the contractor only has an account at a place that has higher prices? Who do you think ends up paying for that? Hint - it's not the contractor. Supply houses frequently give substantial discounts to contractors for paying at the time of ordering and in cash. Supplier credit costs the supplier. They're extending a short term loan to the contractor. It costs the supplier money and it increases the risk for them. Nothing is life is free - that cost and risk is added to the price of the materials. They reward people for not increasing the cost and risk by giving discounts. The same way you seek a good buy, a contractor seeks a good buy. You said you don't "think" they put money out. You seem to have confused cash, credit and liability. I would imagine that you have a mortgage on your house like most people. Even though you are not paying all of that money at once, you are liable for paying all of the loaned money back plus interest. As soon as a contractor places an order, they are liable for payment of the dollar amount of that order. If you ignore your mortgage payment, or the contractor doesn't pay the supplier, the charge and liability are still there. While cash has not been laid out, there's still a nice fat red mark in the debit column. That's a liability. The contractor's debt goes in the debit column of the accountant's books. That debit gets canceled out when you make payment. Until that time the contractor is loaning you money. You seem to be assuming that a contractor doesn't have a line of credit if he doesn't extend the line of credit to you. Frankly, I've never had to assume anything. The contractor has always procured the products I ask for and when the job is done, I pay them. I would anticipate paying as the job went along, but if someone is a roofer and they can't even swing the cost for shingles and plywood, I would not be comfortable handing them the few hundred dollars. I do not like the assumptions that the OP's roofer made, and said so. We are not talking about that specific situation - we're now talking in generalities. Saying "can't even swing the cost of" IS assuming. I need to make a profit. That's why I am in business - to make a profit. That doesn't mean I will automatically make a profit. I don't need money to cover materials. That doesn't mean I won't charge you up front for the materials. When you say you "would anticipate paying as the job went along", what do you think that means? When do you think the job starts? The project starts as soon as the contract is signed and both parties have agreed to the scope and price of the work, both are engaged in a _construction_ project. Not a banking endeavor. I can afford to cover materials. I won't cover materials. Why should I? I am not a bank. I am not in the business of providing no cost loans. If you'd like a loan to help _you_ swing the cost of the project, that's fine, knock yourself out and talk to you local banker. There are plenty of contractors who operate differently, and that's fine as that is their business. However I do object to nonsense exclamations like NEVER PAY FOR WORK UP FRONT as that is misleading and will get nervous homeowners to throw out good contractors along with the bad. R |
Roofing Question
On Jul 7, 8:32 pm, "SteveB" wrote:
"Nancy Young" wrote in message "SteveB" wrote Must be normal where kjpro is from, as he finds deposits a vital part of business. Deposits are only usual and customary for custom work and special order goods. I agree completely, I wouldn't hesitate to put up, essentially, earnest money for something like that. I'm strictly talking about standard construction materials. It's comforting to know there's other rational logical people in here. Thanks. You mean as opposed to people that say one thing in one post and contradict themselves in another? I'm with you on that one. Let's see what the people that write the rules have to say on the matter. We already looked at your home state of Nevada. Let's pick a few biggies. California information for homeowners http://www.cslb.ca.gov/forms/hicnotice.pdf says this: Are you required to pay a down payment? If you are, the down payment should never be more than 10% of the contract price or $1,000, whichever is less. Is there a schedule of payments? If there is a schedule of payments, you should pay only as work is completed and not before. There are some exceptions - contact the CSLB to find out what they are. That makes sense. Nassau County New York information for homeowners (1.3 million residents) http://www.nassaucountyny.gov/agenci...checklist.html says this: Is the Payment Schedule Fair? Avoid a firm that wants a large down payment. A fair down payment would be under 15%. Make payments as each phase of the work is completed. Hold back final payment until all problems have been corrected. Make sure the contract specifies a payment schedule. That makes sense. Massachusetts Sample Home Improvement Contract http://www.mass.gov/Eoca/docs/sampcont.pdf says this: Payments will be made according to the following SCHEDULE: $________ upon signing contract (*Not to exceed 1/3 of the total contract price OR the cost of special order items, whichever is greater*). $________ by __/__/____ or upon completion of That makes sense, but personally, I think 1/3 of the total contract is pretty steep for a down payment. Maybe you don't like government, even when they're trying to protect a homeowner. Fine. Let's see what the household names in home improvement have to say. Bob Vila http://www.bobvila.com/HowTo_Library...Pro-A1660.html says this: · Try to limit your down payment. Some state laws limit the amount of money a contractor can request as a down payment. Contact your state or local consumer agency to find out what the law is in your area. That makes sense. Holmes on Homes http://www.holmesonhomes.com/tips_an...ails.php?id=29 says this: One of the biggest complaints I hear from home owners who've been taken by their contractor is that they paid too much money upfront. Most contracts that home owners sign are based on time. THIS IS TOTALLY INCORRECT. You need to demand a contract and payment plan based on milestones, not set time periods. A good payment plan starts with the down payment. This should be no more than 15% up to $2,500 maximum. Never pay a contractor more than $2,500 before they've even stepped foot in your house. That makes sense. The only thing that doesn't make sense is your flip flopping and spouting off about NEVER PAY FOR WORK UP FRONT. R |
Roofing Question
wrote in message ... giving a down payment is the way to get ripped off. if a company isnt big enough to wait till the jobs done before collecting payment.send them on their way. you wouldnt believe the number of contractors that never return after getting a down payment. he's guessing on the wood thickness..lucas It is also important to check out the contractors. I had a roofing job done for $60,000 with no deposit required. I had a siding job done for $42,000 and we paid 1/3 at the start, 1/3 after 50% complete, 1/3 at final. The company that did the job has been in business for 25 years and they did show up the day they said they would. Another siding contractor did not require any deposit but they were $20,000 higher on the bid. |
Roofing Question - Clarification
On Sat, 7 Jul 2007 15:58:35 -0600, "SteveB"
wrote: "RicodJour" wrote in message ups.com... On Jul 7, 5:14 pm, "SteveB" wrote: There's been a lot said here about deposits. Deposits are usual and customary in today's market for custom work, special orders, and other special circumstances agreed upon in advance by both parties of the contract. I started out my steel erection contracting business doing ornamental metal in my garage. 50% down because it was custom work, and 50% upon installation. I did about two years of this before I grew and got into the commercial market and got my contractor's license. In that time, I was jerked around by so many homeowners that I was sick of it. Once I took off commercially, I changed policies. If anyone said ANYTHING about the deposit on custom work, I'd just put a big X on my copy, and tell them to call me. If they did call back for the work, I'd say that I was just too busy and they could call back every three months. Anyone who grumped about paying a deposit for custom work would grump about everything else, too. Usually they called me back with some long tale of woe about how bad a job they had gotten at a "bargain" price, and could I come fix it. "Sure, a truck and two men are $95 per hour." More wailing. Once I got commercial, the word "deposit" never came up. They pay when the job is FINISHED AND INSPECTED. Or they do progress payments. And then it may take a while for the girl to cut the check. So, while I say deposits are bad and unnecessary, I must admit that sometimes .................. The main thing is to know your contractor, have recourse, see their licensing and insurance, and check things out. As for homeowners paying for stuff up front, I have heard too many horror stories. It's like the drunk who asks for a buck to get something to eat. You offer to take him and buy him a burger. No, they want the buck. If the contractor can't get the materials, YOU buy them and dispense them as used. But NOOOOO, they want the deposit. Many have written here, both the informed and the clueless. It is different with different types of businesses, and areas. But business is business, and it's just not a smart idea to pay for something you don't get. Do you even read the stuff you write before you hit send? I know you don't think about it. A little while ago you were shouting NEVER PAY FOR WORK UP FRONT, now you're telling us that you customarily did business that way? Then you're telling us that you left the deposit thing behind when you went into commercial work. WTF? Sure, there's no difference between commercial and residential work, is there? Sheesh. R At least I am honest enough to tell the story. Things change in people's lives (not yours apparently) and from one time to another, they do things differently. As for now, I don't USUALLY give deposits, save for custom work or special orders. And I damn sure wouldn't give a deposit to a roofer under any circumstances. Steve If I do your roof, I don't need a deposit from you. I do however, expect you to sign all the papers before I deliver product to your property so that I have a lien on your home. If you hesitate to pay on completion, I kick your sorry ass out, auction off your home and take my cut and give you what is left after expenses. |
Roofing Question
RicodJour wrote:
On Jul 7, 8:32 pm, "SteveB" wrote: "Nancy Young" wrote in message "SteveB" wrote Must be normal where kjpro is from, as he finds deposits a vital part of business. Deposits are only usual and customary for custom work and special order goods. I agree completely, I wouldn't hesitate to put up, essentially, earnest money for something like that. I'm strictly talking about standard construction materials. It's comforting to know there's other rational logical people in here. Thanks. You mean as opposed to people that say one thing in one post and contradict themselves in another? I'm with you on that one. Let's see what the people that write the rules have to say on the matter. We already looked at your home state of Nevada. Let's pick a few biggies. California information for homeowners http://www.cslb.ca.gov/forms/hicnotice.pdf says this: Are you required to pay a down payment? If you are, the down payment should never be more than 10% of the contract price or $1,000, whichever is less. Is there a schedule of payments? If there is a schedule of payments, you should pay only as work is completed and not before. There are some exceptions - contact the CSLB to find out what they are. That makes sense. Nassau County New York information for homeowners (1.3 million residents) http://www.nassaucountyny.gov/agenci...checklist.html says this: Is the Payment Schedule Fair? Avoid a firm that wants a large down payment. A fair down payment would be under 15%. Make payments as each phase of the work is completed. Hold back final payment until all problems have been corrected. Make sure the contract specifies a payment schedule. That makes sense. Massachusetts Sample Home Improvement Contract http://www.mass.gov/Eoca/docs/sampcont.pdf says this: Payments will be made according to the following SCHEDULE: $________ upon signing contract (*Not to exceed 1/3 of the total contract price OR the cost of special order items, whichever is greater*). $________ by __/__/____ or upon completion of That makes sense, but personally, I think 1/3 of the total contract is pretty steep for a down payment. Maybe you don't like government, even when they're trying to protect a homeowner. Fine. Let's see what the household names in home improvement have to say. Bob Vila http://www.bobvila.com/HowTo_Library...Pro-A1660.html says this: · Try to limit your down payment. Some state laws limit the amount of money a contractor can request as a down payment. Contact your state or local consumer agency to find out what the law is in your area. That makes sense. Holmes on Homes http://www.holmesonhomes.com/tips_an...ails.php?id=29 says this: One of the biggest complaints I hear from home owners who've been taken by their contractor is that they paid too much money upfront. Most contracts that home owners sign are based on time. THIS IS TOTALLY INCORRECT. You need to demand a contract and payment plan based on milestones, not set time periods. A good payment plan starts with the down payment. This should be no more than 15% up to $2,500 maximum. Never pay a contractor more than $2,500 before they've even stepped foot in your house. That makes sense. The only thing that doesn't make sense is your flip flopping and spouting off about NEVER PAY FOR WORK UP FRONT. R In addition to the cites posted above, Home Depot and Lowes both require FULL payment IN ADVANCE of any work done. And we all know how disreputable and in need of cash they are. (Actually, they ARE disreputable.) -- Robert Allison Rimshot, Inc. Georgetown, TX |
Roofing Question
The general contractor sure did. The mobilization and
mechanization payment before the job begins is substantial. -- ______________________________ Keep the whole world singing . . . . DanG (remove the sevens) "SteveB" wrote in message ... kjpro @ usenet.com wrote You're not in business I see. Almost everybody gets a deposit these days!!!! Only the derelicts and fugitives. Reputable contractors don't. And I can see that you've NEVER been in business. Most companies and businesses will NOT pay in advance under any circumstances. They will make progress payments as stages of the work are completed, but they will NEVER let the workman get ahead of them. Steve, a former steel erection contractor, State of Nevada for nine years |
Roofing Question
On Jul 8, 2:08 am, Robert Allison wrote:
In addition to the cites posted above, Home Depot and Lowes both require FULL payment IN ADVANCE of any work done. And we all know how disreputable and in need of cash they are. (Actually, they ARE disreputable.) That's something that's always ****ed me off. The big box stores do an end run around the contracting licensing laws because of some stupid contention that they are not contractors, but suppliers. Well, when someone supplies material and labor under one contract, that makes them a contractor. When they sub out the work, that makes them a general contractor. The big box stores don't participate in restitution funds, obey the maximum deposit regulations, etc., etc. It's just wrong. R |
Roofing Question
RicodJour wrote:
.... That's something that's always ****ed me off. The big box stores do an end run around the contracting licensing laws because of some stupid contention that they are not contractors, but suppliers. Well, when someone supplies material and labor under one contract, that makes them a contractor. When they sub out the work, that makes them a general contractor. The big box stores don't participate in restitution funds, obey the maximum deposit regulations, etc., etc. It's just wrong. So don't use them...if you could convince enough others (just like in the argument against cheap/inferior/import/whatever merchandise threads) they would either change their ways or quit offering the service... -- |
Roofing Question
On Jul 8, 9:27 am, dpb wrote:
RicodJour wrote: ... That's something that's always ****ed me off. The big box stores do an end run around the contracting licensing laws because of some stupid contention that they are not contractors, but suppliers. Well, when someone supplies material and labor under one contract, that makes them a contractor. When they sub out the work, that makes them a general contractor. The big box stores don't participate in restitution funds, obey the maximum deposit regulations, etc., etc. It's just wrong. So don't use them...if you could convince enough others (just like in the argument against cheap/inferior/import/whatever merchandise threads) they would either change their ways or quit offering the service... People would always use them. They know the name, they have low prices and high exposure. How many contractors do you know that have their own NASCAR team? They're the 900 pound gorilla, so people who don't know any better think they've gotta be good and don't know the alternatives. They operate like a contractor, they should be held to the same rules and regulations. It's similar to saying that someone is not in the legislative branch so they don't have to comply with legislative directives, and then that they're not in the executive branch when they don't want to comply with executive directives. It's just stupid. R |
Roofing Question
RicodJour wrote:
On Jul 8, 9:27 am, dpb wrote: RicodJour wrote: ... That's something that's always ****ed me off. The big box stores do an end run around the contracting licensing laws because of some stupid contention that they are not contractors, but suppliers. Well, when someone supplies material and labor under one contract, that makes them a contractor. When they sub out the work, that makes them a general contractor. The big box stores don't participate in restitution funds, obey the maximum deposit regulations, etc., etc. It's just wrong. So don't use them...if you could convince enough others (just like in the argument against cheap/inferior/import/whatever merchandise threads) they would either change their ways or quit offering the service... People would always use them. They know the name, they have low prices and high exposure. ... Then they must be doing something right for their business model. Who you want to be complaining to is either your legislature or enforcement depending on whether there isn't appropriate/adequate legislation in your opinion or there is lax enforcement of existing regulation. Same fundamental truth -- get enough widespread support and raise enough clamor and you can be the effector of change. Otherwise, your way to vote is by your own choice. (And to be clear, not a personal attack intended, simply a pov on how/to whom/where to complain/bitch/protest...) -- -- |
Roofing Question
On Jul 8, 9:51 am, dpb wrote:
RicodJour wrote: On Jul 8, 9:27 am, dpb wrote: RicodJour wrote: ... That's something that's always ****ed me off. The big box stores do an end run around the contracting licensing laws because of some stupid contention that they are not contractors, but suppliers. Well, when someone supplies material and labor under one contract, that makes them a contractor. When they sub out the work, that makes them a general contractor. The big box stores don't participate in restitution funds, obey the maximum deposit regulations, etc., etc. It's just wrong. So don't use them...if you could convince enough others (just like in the argument against cheap/inferior/import/whatever merchandise threads) they would either change their ways or quit offering the service... People would always use them. They know the name, they have low prices and high exposure. ... Then they must be doing something right for their business model. Who you want to be complaining to is either your legislature or enforcement depending on whether there isn't appropriate/adequate legislation in your opinion or there is lax enforcement of existing regulation. Same fundamental truth -- get enough widespread support and raise enough clamor and you can be the effector of change. Otherwise, your way to vote is by your own choice. (And to be clear, not a personal attack intended, simply a pov on how/to whom/where to complain/bitch/protest...) Well, in one way, they're good for my business. Horror stories tend to loosen up the pocketbooks, and god knows there are enough big box installer horror stories. ;) Going up against Home Depot would need to be a crusade, and I have enough of them at the moment, but your point is well taken. R |
Roofing Question
RicodJour wrote:
On Jul 8, 9:51 am, dpb wrote: RicodJour wrote: On Jul 8, 9:27 am, dpb wrote: RicodJour wrote: ... That's something that's always ****ed me off. The big box stores do an end run around the contracting licensing laws because of some stupid contention that they are not contractors, but suppliers. Well, when someone supplies material and labor under one contract, that makes them a contractor. When they sub out the work, that makes them a general contractor. The big box stores don't participate in restitution funds, obey the maximum deposit regulations, etc., etc. It's just wrong. So don't use them...if you could convince enough others (just like in the argument against cheap/inferior/import/whatever merchandise threads) they would either change their ways or quit offering the service... People would always use them. They know the name, they have low prices and high exposure. ... Then they must be doing something right for their business model. Who you want to be complaining to is either your legislature or enforcement depending on whether there isn't appropriate/adequate legislation in your opinion or there is lax enforcement of existing regulation. Same fundamental truth -- get enough widespread support and raise enough clamor and you can be the effector of change. Otherwise, your way to vote is by your own choice. (And to be clear, not a personal attack intended, simply a pov on how/to whom/where to complain/bitch/protest...) Well, in one way, they're good for my business. Horror stories tend to loosen up the pocketbooks, and god knows there are enough big box installer horror stories. ;) Going up against Home Depot would need to be a crusade, and I have enough of them at the moment, but your point is well taken. Amen to both! :) But, imo there are two general classes that choose the box store as installer for a project -- the incurably cheap and the incurably naive/uneducated/uninformed. Neither is what you want as a client, either, until they have at least had an eduction. :( As I've pointed out in previous threads on the topic, in present US consumer circles there seems to be an endless supply of people wanting the lowest initial cost whatever it is and more of whatever "it" is currently. As long as this mentality reigns predominant, the trend to such behavior by the retailers will also continue to follow the market, however much those who prefer small/independent/high(er) quality/etc., decry it. So far, there seems to be at least a survivable niche for most independent remodelers, etc. The folks really getting squeezed out are the small retailers, etc., that can't compete on the "bread and butter" items that formerly allowed them to be able to stock the lower-volume products. -- |
Roofing Question
"Robert Allison" wrote In addition to the cites posted above, Home Depot and Lowes both require FULL payment IN ADVANCE of any work done. And we all know how disreputable and in need of cash they are. (Actually, they ARE disreputable.) -- Robert Allison Rimshot, Inc. Georgetown, TX And we all know what good installers they use, and how easy it is to get satisfaction if there is a problem. Steve |
Roofing Question
"dpb" wrote in message People would always use them. They know the name, they have low prices and high exposure. ... Then they must be doing something right for their business model. They spend a lot of money advertising showing happy people. They have the majority of people convinced they have the lowest prices to the point that they don't shop around any more. Given the size of the store, the same ill informed consumer thinks the big box stores have every possible piece of hardware imaginable and helpful "associates" will help them find what they need. I've been to some plumbing and electrical supply houses that seem to have the surliest of clerks that don't want to be bothered with the consumer that has no clue what they want and they just re-enforce why going to Home Depot is better. . |
Roofing Question
dpb wrote:
RicodJour wrote: On Jul 8, 9:51 am, dpb wrote: RicodJour wrote: On Jul 8, 9:27 am, dpb wrote: RicodJour wrote: ... That's something that's always ****ed me off. The big box stores do an end run around the contracting licensing laws because of some stupid contention that they are not contractors, but suppliers. Well, when someone supplies material and labor under one contract, that makes them a contractor. When they sub out the work, that makes them a general contractor. The big box stores don't participate in restitution funds, obey the maximum deposit regulations, etc., etc. It's just wrong. So don't use them...if you could convince enough others (just like in the argument against cheap/inferior/import/whatever merchandise threads) they would either change their ways or quit offering the service... People would always use them. They know the name, they have low prices and high exposure. ... Then they must be doing something right for their business model. Who you want to be complaining to is either your legislature or enforcement depending on whether there isn't appropriate/adequate legislation in your opinion or there is lax enforcement of existing regulation. Same fundamental truth -- get enough widespread support and raise enough clamor and you can be the effector of change. Otherwise, your way to vote is by your own choice. (And to be clear, not a personal attack intended, simply a pov on how/to whom/where to complain/bitch/protest...) Well, in one way, they're good for my business. Horror stories tend to loosen up the pocketbooks, and god knows there are enough big box installer horror stories. ;) Going up against Home Depot would need to be a crusade, and I have enough of them at the moment, but your point is well taken. Amen to both! :) But, imo there are two general classes that choose the box store as installer for a project -- the incurably cheap and the incurably naive/uneducated/uninformed. Neither is what you want as a client, either, until they have at least had an eduction. :( I think that a lot of the customers for HD and Lowes installation are people that use credit for everything. A lot of these people could never afford to dish out the money for a project, so they use the plastic and not only pay in advance, but with interest alot more than they would if they paid cash. As I've pointed out in previous threads on the topic, in present US consumer circles there seems to be an endless supply of people wanting the lowest initial cost whatever it is and more of whatever "it" is currently. As long as this mentality reigns predominant, the trend to such behavior by the retailers will also continue to follow the market, however much those who prefer small/independent/high(er) quality/etc., decry it. So far, there seems to be at least a survivable niche for most independent remodelers, etc. The folks really getting squeezed out are the small retailers, etc., that can't compete on the "bread and butter" items that formerly allowed them to be able to stock the lower-volume products. -- We small, quality contractors will always be around, because there are a lot of quality minded consumers still around. I cannot do all the work that I am asked to do, yet I never advertise, nor am I in the yellow pages. I just do good work. I am constantly amazed when a person calls out of the blue and we go over who knew who and who recommended me. (And I always get a deposit up front, or at the least, when the materials are delivered. But I never start work without a little money in my pocket.) -- Robert Allison Rimshot, Inc. Georgetown, TX |
Roofing Question
"RicodJour" wrote in message oups.com... On Jul 7, 7:16 pm, "Nancy Young" wrote: "RicodJour" wrote On Jul 7, 1:26 pm, "Nancy Young" wrote: If I've read it once, I've read it a million times. If the local suppliers (snip) There are plenty of contractors who operate differently, and that's fine as that is their business. However I do object to nonsense exclamations like NEVER PAY FOR WORK UP FRONT as that is misleading and will get nervous homeowners to throw out good contractors along with the bad. Shrug. I've had it go both ways, fixing up this place. The furnace company wanted half up front, the painters wanted a token 'good faith' deposit, and the roofer looked at me like I was an idiot for asking if he wanted anything up front. So did the insulation guy. Plumbers and such got paid at the end, and the flooring guy (who was after-supper moonlighting on himself, from his one-man-company's day contract with the borg) got paid at the end, in cash. (No, I didn't ask for a receipt.) On small work (under 5-7 K), if I know the guy has an actual local business location, and is in the real phone book, I'll risk paying front money. If the guy works out of his house in a plain truck, him asking for front money starts to set off my BS detector. Now if I ever do anything big where I have to get the bank's help to pay for it, I'll let them make the call. I do understand the concepts of draw payments at defined progress points- doing the punch lists to meet the bank guy's checklist was one of my duties as a kid. (Is the house 'dried in'? Are all the windows and doors set and lockable? Is the permit board current and legible, with the proper inspection stamps for each trade? That sort of thing.) aem sends.... |
Roofing Question
"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message . .. "dpb" wrote in message People would always use them. They know the name, they have low prices and high exposure. ... Then they must be doing something right for their business model. They spend a lot of money advertising showing happy people. They have the majority of people convinced they have the lowest prices to the point that they don't shop around any more. Given the size of the store, the same ill informed consumer thinks the big box stores have every possible piece of hardware imaginable and helpful "associates" will help them find what they need. I've been to some plumbing and electrical supply houses that seem to have the surliest of clerks that don't want to be bothered with the consumer that has no clue what they want and they just re-enforce why going to Home Depot is better. . Reading this thread, not just your response Ed, but reading it got me thinking about some of the replies. I know a lot of people who don't hesitate to spend top dollar for contracting work, myself included, but oftentimes we find a few things that immediately turn us off. 1) The contractor has a great reputation and obvious talent, but the personality of a pit bull and I personally will suffer subquality work from someone less qualified as long as they have a decent customer face. A lot of people that I know feel the same way. When we can't find someone reasonably human, we then decide to give it a go ourselves. 2) To comment on what you said Ed, I know 3 electrical supply houses in my area (50 mile radius) who will deal with someone who is NOT a contractor and doesn't have a line of credit with them already established. So what that means is that I have to go to Lowe's or Ace if I want to do work myself - it's not that I don't want to deal with them or that they're unhappy people, they simply refuse my business. Or, when they do interact with walk-ins the help is so unfamiliar in dealing with single customers that their skills immediately turn us off. Seattle Lighting is one store that I simply won't do business with - simply because of the poor quality of their floor help. Yet I know lots of contractors who work with them all the time. 3) For many people working with contractors isn't a frequent occurance. So oftentimes we simply don't have any familiarity with their business, costs, or schedules. I sincerely hope that I will have to deal with a contractor at the most once a year. You aren't going to get any sort of familiarity with them at that level of frequency - couple that with what I outlined in 1 above and you can see why people balk at using them or make what a contractor considers an unreasonable demand. |
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Roofing Question
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Roofing Question
"SteveB" wrote in message ... kjpro @ usenet.com wrote in message ... "SteveB" wrote in message ... "Just Joshin" wrote Agreed that your reply makes sense. The other concern I have, is how he/she NEEDS the down payment to buy supplies. Most supply houses around here have credit available. IMHO, not a good sign. tom @ www.WorkAtHomePlans.com One of the top ten stupid things people do in life is pay in advance for repairs. If the person is licensed, experienced, and in business long enough, they will have the money or credit to buy the materials and get paid when the job is done. NEVER PAY UP FRONT. Steve The normal is to pay a deposit. I guess you like doing **** for nothing? Huh? What I prefer is a company that has enough operating capital to be able to swing it so that in the three days from the time they start the job until they end it, they don't go out of business because they can't afford to buy supplies enough for the job. There's a difference between operating capital and a deposit. Please learn the difference. |
Roofing Question
"SteveB" wrote in message ... kjpro @ usenet.com wrote in message ... "SteveB" wrote in message ... kjpro @ usenet.com wrote You're not in business I see. Almost everybody gets a deposit these days!!!! Only the derelicts and fugitives. Reputable contractors don't. Bull****!!! And I can see that you've NEVER been in business. Most companies and businesses will NOT pay in advance under any circumstances. They will make progress payments as stages of the work are completed, but they will NEVER let the workman get ahead of them. We're talking about a residential project here, MORON. I see you've never worked residential jobs! Steve, a former steel erection contractor, State of Nevada for nine years Oh my, a whole 9 years..... LOL Come back when you've learnt how business is run in today's world. I sold out for a handsome profit for nine years work, and went back overseas for a few contracts where all I had to do was show up. I was reluctant to do residential jobs because my commercial customer base kept me too busy for that. It also payed more. Steve That still doesn't qualify your comments. |
Roofing Question
"Nancy Young" wrote in message ... kjpro @ usenet.com wrote "Nancy Young" wrote kjpro @ usenet.com wrote "SteveB" wrote kjpro @ usenet.com wrote Never paid a deposit? Only on pop bottles and beer kegs. I knew this wouldn't pertain to you... as renters never have to hire a contractor! I don't know why this is annoying you but ... no, all the work I've had done on my house, no deposits, except for ordering the kitchen cabinets. I didn't buy them from the contractor. Sounds like a deposit to me... No, I bought them because I knew what I wanted, and the layout. I only started looking for a contractor after the cabinets were sitting in my garage. nancy You put money down in order to get the cabinets. That *is* a deposit!!!! |
Roofing Question
"SteveB" wrote in message ... "Dottie" wrote I had my roof repaired last year. This year I got a new roof. Last year I had the valley repaired and did not pay anything up front. The company doing the job was a very large company. This year we decided it was time to replace the old tile roof with shingles before the price got too high for shingles. We paid one third down up front. The company was a small company with a good reputation. When the job was finished we paid the balance. This is customary here (FL). I don't know of any company that would start work without a down payment. What about the big one that did the first repair? Steve Minor repair, dip****!!! |
Roofing Question
"SteveB" wrote in message ... kjpro @ usenet.com wrote in message ... "SteveB" wrote in message ... How does roofer know the thickness of the sheathing without ripping-off the shingles? Seems to me that he'll need to use the same thickness to match the existing sheathing that has not buckled. Probably from the experience of working on hundreds of roofs, and that there is only one thickness used in your area. Probably half inch. And sometimes a piece is visible on the outside that can be seen, so he doesn't need to go inside. Ask him how he's sure. If you don't think the man knows what he's doing, hire someone else. Roofing isn't rocket science, and if there is a difference in the sheathing, it's only going to be 1/8", and that can be shimmed so it is not a visible transition. Steve I see you need to stick with giving advice on another subject. One thickness per area????? LOL Only an 1/8 of an inch??????? LOL What's the difference between 1/2 and 3/4????? Now go outside and play with your dog little kiddy. Man, you follow me like a puppy. Most roofers use 1/2" and 5/8". I don't know of a lot who use 3/4" for roofing. Steve Don't mean that it doesn't exist, now does it?? |
Roofing Question - Clarification
"RicodJour" wrote in message ps.com... On Jul 7, 5:14 pm, "SteveB" wrote: There's been a lot said here about deposits. Deposits are usual and customary in today's market for custom work, special orders, and other special circumstances agreed upon in advance by both parties of the contract. I started out my steel erection contracting business doing ornamental metal in my garage. 50% down because it was custom work, and 50% upon installation. I did about two years of this before I grew and got into the commercial market and got my contractor's license. In that time, I was jerked around by so many homeowners that I was sick of it. Once I took off commercially, I changed policies. If anyone said ANYTHING about the deposit on custom work, I'd just put a big X on my copy, and tell them to call me. If they did call back for the work, I'd say that I was just too busy and they could call back every three months. Anyone who grumped about paying a deposit for custom work would grump about everything else, too. Usually they called me back with some long tale of woe about how bad a job they had gotten at a "bargain" price, and could I come fix it. "Sure, a truck and two men are $95 per hour." More wailing. Once I got commercial, the word "deposit" never came up. They pay when the job is FINISHED AND INSPECTED. Or they do progress payments. And then it may take a while for the girl to cut the check. So, while I say deposits are bad and unnecessary, I must admit that sometimes .................. The main thing is to know your contractor, have recourse, see their licensing and insurance, and check things out. As for homeowners paying for stuff up front, I have heard too many horror stories. It's like the drunk who asks for a buck to get something to eat. You offer to take him and buy him a burger. No, they want the buck. If the contractor can't get the materials, YOU buy them and dispense them as used. But NOOOOO, they want the deposit. Many have written here, both the informed and the clueless. It is different with different types of businesses, and areas. But business is business, and it's just not a smart idea to pay for something you don't get. Do you even read the stuff you write before you hit send? I know you don't think about it. A little while ago you were shouting NEVER PAY FOR WORK UP FRONT, now you're telling us that you customarily did business that way? Then you're telling us that you left the deposit thing behind when you went into commercial work. WTF? Sure, there's no difference between commercial and residential work, is there? Sheesh. R He did mention the "clueless", he was referring to himself!!!!! |
Roofing Question - Clarification
"SteveB" wrote in message ... As for now, I don't USUALLY give deposits, save for custom work or special orders. And I damn sure wouldn't give a deposit to a roofer under any circumstances. That's his thought for this post. LMAO |
Roofing Question - Clarification
"SteveB" wrote in message ... "RicodJour" wrote Do you even read the stuff you write before you hit send? I know you don't think about it. That's your trouble, Ric, you know more than your capacity. Now let me think about this ................ plonk ....................... Do I want to hit the SEND button ................. Wait, wait, I know this ............. Bye, Rick the Dick .................... Plonking the people that see the real you? LOL |
Roofing Question
"SteveB" wrote in message ... "Nancy Young" wrote in message ... "SteveB" wrote Must be normal where kjpro is from, as he finds deposits a vital part of business. Deposits are only usual and customary for custom work and special order goods. I agree completely, I wouldn't hesitate to put up, essentially, earnest money for something like that. I'm strictly talking about standard construction materials. nancy It's comforting to know there's other rational logical people in here. Thanks. Steve You sure as hell don't fit that category!!! Just read the post you made on running your business. The REAL truth comes out. |
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