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Cracked heat exchanger
Reportedly four year old 93% efficient furnace of unknown brand in a
house the I am buying and just had inspected. Should the heat exchanger be replaced or the furnace replaced? |
Cracked heat exchanger
wrote in message oups.com... Reportedly four year old 93% efficient furnace of unknown brand in a house the I am buying and just had inspected. Should the heat exchanger be replaced or the furnace replaced? Cost? If the furnace is otherwise in good condition, no reason to replace it all. If the cost of the heat exchanger is 80% of the total cost, then do it all. Think of it the same as your car. At two years, you'd replace the engine, but at 12, you'd probably tow it to the junk yard. |
Cracked heat exchanger
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Cracked heat exchanger
Deke wrote:
Since time began, no one has been made sick or died because of a cracked heat exchanger... Would you have any evidence for this article of faith? I know one person who died of CO in NYC. Nick |
Cracked heat exchanger
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Cracked heat exchanger
Deke wrote:
If you know of a crooked hvac person that actually shuts down the system with cracked heat exchanger, report him widely as a dishonest person. He is just trying to rob you and has the morals of a snake. Around here they're legally required to tag it and notify the gas company. It then has to be replaced in 30 days or the gas will be shut off. The guy that inspected the furnace in the house that we bought last fall noted that it was bad, but didn't tag it because it would cause all sorts of hassles right during the ownership transfer period. Chris |
Cracked heat exchanger
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Cracked heat exchanger
On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 13:24:00 -0600, Chris Friesen
wrote: Deke wrote: If you know of a crooked hvac person that actually shuts down the system with cracked heat exchanger, report him widely as a dishonest person. He is just trying to rob you and has the morals of a snake. Around here they're legally required to tag it and notify the gas company. It then has to be replaced in 30 days or the gas will be shut off. Please post the web site of the code that says that. The guy that inspected the furnace in the house that we bought last fall noted that it was bad, but didn't tag it because it would cause all sorts of hassles right during the ownership transfer period. Chris |
Cracked heat exchanger
Deke wrote:
On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 13:24:00 -0600, Chris Friesen wrote: Around here they're legally required to tag it and notify the gas company. It then has to be replaced in 30 days or the gas will be shut off. Please post the web site of the code that says that. I can't...its not available online, and it costs about $180 for a copy. Note that I'm up in Canada. The guy who did our furnace inspection mentioned that he would do the replacement install if we wanted but he normally doesn't do installs. He also didn't make any specific recomendations as to who we should get to do the install. Chris |
Cracked heat exchanger
On Mar 14, 2:34 pm, Deke wrote:
On 14 Mar 2007 10:58:14 -0700, wrote: Reportedly four year old 93% efficient furnace of unknown brand in a house the I am buying and just had inspected. Should the heat exchanger be replaced or the furnace replaced? Absolutely not for safety reasons. One of the biggest scams of the hvac business hoodlums is telling customers that the crack in their heat exchanger is dangerous and shut down the system. Since time began, no one has been made sick or died because of a cracked heat exchanger. Don't let those crooks tell you otherwise. Did you know that there are tens of millions of americans that are burning fuel with 100 percent of the combustion byproducts being released inside the living quarters. You ever hear of coleman stoves or room heaters or wall furnaces? Did you know that because the pressures involved just about guarantee that none of the combustion fumes from a cracked heat exchanger enter the airstream. If you know of a crooked hvac person that actually shuts down the system with cracked heat exchanger, report him widely as a dishonest person. He is just trying to rob you and has the morals of a snake. Post your facts and where you get them instead of talking nonsense about pressure and combustion fumes with a cracked heat exchanger. Anyone who has this type of issue are incouraged to seek professional guidance instead of listening to this garbage. They will sleep better at night......And it's always nice to wake up in the morning. -paul |
Cracked heat exchanger
Yes it is possible to have carbon monoxide leak into the home from a heat
exchanger in a inducer draft fan furnace. The pressure with in the heat exchanger is still greater then that out side it until the blower kicks in and even then the risk of pulling C02 in to the house air is present. Yes deaths have occurred here just a few: http://www.dailystandard.com/date/20.../headline2.htm (http://www.dailystandard.com/date/20.../headline2.htm) http://www.carbon-monoxide-poisoning...y.com/news.htm (http://www.carbon-monoxide-poisoning...y.com/news.htm) http://www.homesafe.com/coalert/cofacts.htm (http://www.homesafe.com/coalert/cofacts.htm) http://www.coheadquarters.com/COEpidem/coepidem02.htm (http://www.coheadquarters.com/COEpidem/coepidem02.htm |
Cracked heat exchanger
Chris Friesen wrote:
Deke wrote: On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 13:24:00 -0600, Chris Friesen wrote: Around here they're legally required to tag it and notify the gas company. It then has to be replaced in 30 days or the gas will be shut off. Please post the web site of the code that says that. I can't...its not available online, and it costs about $180 for a copy. After some more digging, I did find something. See the "Red Tag Program" link at: http://www.saskpower.com/yourbus/cb/cb.shtml It looks like its even more stringent than I thought. According to that document, a cracked heat exchanger is technically considered a "hazardous condition". This requires either immediate repair or else turning off the gas to the appliance and notifying the gas utility. Chris |
Cracked heat exchanger
On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 16:27:58 -0400, "Charles Schuler"
wrote: Yes it is possible to have carbon monoxide leak into the home from a heat exchanger in a inducer draft fan furnace. The pressure with in the heat exchanger is still greater then that out side it until the blower kicks in and even then the risk of pulling C02 in to the house air is present. Yes deaths have occurred here just a few: http://www.dailystandard.com/date/20.../headline2.htm (http://www.dailystandard.com/date/20.../headline2.htm) http://www.carbon-monoxide-poisoning...y.com/news.htm (http://www.carbon-monoxide-poisoning...y.com/news.htm) http://www.homesafe.com/coalert/cofacts.htm (http://www.homesafe.com/coalert/cofacts.htm) http://www.coheadquarters.com/COEpidem/coepidem02.htm (http://www.coheadquarters.com/COEpidem/coepidem02.htm Please look at the header and note that this discussion is only about cracked heat exchangers. Not one of the your postings concerns a death from a cracked heat exchanger. The reason is because there has never been a death from a cracked heat exchanger. Sure there are lots of co2 deaths. Sure, there are lots of deaths from furnaces that are defective. But never has anyone died from a properly working furnace that happened to have a cracked heat exchanger. It is just physically impossible to get enough co2 into the living quarters to cause a fatality from a cracked heat exchanger. Can't happn. Never happened and never will happen. |
Cracked heat exchanger
On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 16:11:05 -0600, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:
"Ohly Smilgerizenia" wrote in message .. . Deke wrote: On 14 Mar 2007 10:58:14 -0700, wrote: Reportedly four year old 93% efficient furnace of unknown brand in a house the I am buying and just had inspected. Should the heat exchanger be replaced or the furnace replaced? The heat exchanger can be replaced. There is no safety issue if it's done properly. Absolutely not for safety reasons. On the other hand, the above responce with the others following are from a complete IDIOT. One of the biggest scams of the hvac business hoodlums is telling customers that the crack in their heat exchanger is dangerous and shut down the system. They can and do become dangerous... Since time began, no one has been made sick or died because of a cracked heat exchanger. Don't let those crooks tell you otherwise. You better do research next time, before you make yourself look like a complete IDIOT, Einstein. Did you know that there are tens of millions of americans that are burning fuel with 100 percent of the combustion byproducts being released inside the living quarters. You ever hear of coleman stoves or room heaters or wall furnaces? Do you realize that NOTHING burns 100% ? And this means that there is CO entering a home if the appliance isn't vented!! Good God man. Don't you realize that the vast majority of homes with these appliances are NOT vented. Did you know that because the pressures involved just about guarantee that none of the combustion fumes from a cracked heat exchanger enter the airstream. BULL****!! You better go back to school to see if you can ACTUALLY learn something this time around. If you know of a crooked hvac person that actually shuts down the system with cracked heat exchanger, report him widely as a dishonest person. He is just trying to rob you and has the morals of a snake. Yeah, report him... he's just trying to save your life. That's a crime you know! The responce you recieved in this post by Deke is completely INACCURATE. I hope like hell he's NOT in the HVAC business... otherwise he's not only giving BAD advice on usenet, but his clients are likely to be living in dangerous homes!!!! Is true in America? The only thing true that Deke stated.... is on the line below... _______________________________________________ _ |
Cracked heat exchanger
On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 16:42:14 -0500, Deke wrote:
On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 16:11:05 -0600, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote: "Ohly Smilgerizenia" wrote in message . .. Deke wrote: On 14 Mar 2007 10:58:14 -0700, wrote: Reportedly four year old 93% efficient furnace of unknown brand in a house the I am buying and just had inspected. Should the heat exchanger be replaced or the furnace replaced? The heat exchanger can be replaced. There is no safety issue if it's done properly. Absolutely not for safety reasons. On the other hand, the above responce with the others following are from a complete IDIOT. One of the biggest scams of the hvac business hoodlums is telling customers that the crack in their heat exchanger is dangerous and shut down the system. They can and do become dangerous... Since time began, no one has been made sick or died because of a cracked heat exchanger. Don't let those crooks tell you otherwise. You better do research next time, before you make yourself look like a complete IDIOT, Einstein. Did you know that there are tens of millions of americans that are burning fuel with 100 percent of the combustion byproducts being released inside the living quarters. You ever hear of coleman stoves or room heaters or wall furnaces? Do you realize that NOTHING burns 100% ? And this means that there is CO entering a home if the appliance isn't vented!! Good God man. Don't you realize that the vast majority of homes with these appliances are NOT vented. I said that wrong. Actually, the homes with these (ie not central air) are very vented, but the appliances I mentioned were not sold in quantity with the vented capability until the last decade or so. I'd guess about 90 percent of these appliances that are in use are NOT vented. Is that good? No, but neither is the fact that over 30 million people in the usa live below the poverty line. I.E. can't afford central 'vented' heat. Did you know that because the pressures involved just about guarantee that none of the combustion fumes from a cracked heat exchanger enter the airstream. BULL****!! You better go back to school to see if you can ACTUALLY learn something this time around. If you know of a crooked hvac person that actually shuts down the system with cracked heat exchanger, report him widely as a dishonest person. He is just trying to rob you and has the morals of a snake. Yeah, report him... he's just trying to save your life. That's a crime you know! The responce you recieved in this post by Deke is completely INACCURATE. I hope like hell he's NOT in the HVAC business... otherwise he's not only giving BAD advice on usenet, but his clients are likely to be living in dangerous homes!!!! Is true in America? The only thing true that Deke stated.... is on the line below... ______________________________________________ __ |
Cracked heat exchanger
On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 14:36:18 -0600, Chris Friesen
wrote: Chris Friesen wrote: Deke wrote: On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 13:24:00 -0600, Chris Friesen wrote: Around here they're legally required to tag it and notify the gas company. It then has to be replaced in 30 days or the gas will be shut off. Please post the web site of the code that says that. I can't...its not available online, and it costs about $180 for a copy. After some more digging, I did find something. See the "Red Tag Program" link at: http://www.saskpower.com/yourbus/cb/cb.shtml It looks like its even more stringent than I thought. According to that document, a cracked heat exchanger is technically considered a "hazardous condition". This requires either immediate repair or else turning off the gas to the appliance and notifying the gas utility. Chris Chris, did you read the next part (low risk condition) where it says that you do NOT turn off the gas if there is no co2 being released into the building and there is no flame roll out? In that case you just notify the owner and attach your tag. You do NOT turn off the gas to the appliance! I strongly advise everyone to get a co2 detector and the repairman to check out co2 levels of any home with a suspect appliance. But I also warn consumers of HVAC service that you NEVER let them touch your gas shutoff valve - cracked heat exchanger or not - unless they can show you code verse that gives them that authority. What is more likely at play is that they are robbing you blind. And I must say that code is not pure. Often the very crooks that steal from consumers are the same ones that provide the code to the city/county parish or other licensing authority. And finally, if they pull something on you, then get a lawyer and sue their ass for fraud and deceptive trade practice. It costs you nothing as the consumer laws provide the crooks to pay attorney fees. .. |
Cracked heat exchanger
"Ohly Smilgerizenia" wrote in message ... Deke wrote: On 14 Mar 2007 10:58:14 -0700, wrote: Reportedly four year old 93% efficient furnace of unknown brand in a house the I am buying and just had inspected. Should the heat exchanger be replaced or the furnace replaced? The heat exchanger can be replaced. There is no safety issue if it's done properly. Absolutely not for safety reasons. On the other hand, the above responce with the others following are from a complete IDIOT. One of the biggest scams of the hvac business hoodlums is telling customers that the crack in their heat exchanger is dangerous and shut down the system. They can and do become dangerous... Since time began, no one has been made sick or died because of a cracked heat exchanger. Don't let those crooks tell you otherwise. You better do research next time, before you make yourself look like a complete IDIOT, Einstein. Did you know that there are tens of millions of americans that are burning fuel with 100 percent of the combustion byproducts being released inside the living quarters. You ever hear of coleman stoves or room heaters or wall furnaces? Do you realize that NOTHING burns 100% ? And this means that there is CO entering a home if the appliance isn't vented!! Did you know that because the pressures involved just about guarantee that none of the combustion fumes from a cracked heat exchanger enter the airstream. BULL****!! You better go back to school to see if you can ACTUALLY learn something this time around. If you know of a crooked hvac person that actually shuts down the system with cracked heat exchanger, report him widely as a dishonest person. He is just trying to rob you and has the morals of a snake. Yeah, report him... he's just trying to save your life. That's a crime you know! The responce you recieved in this post by Deke is completely INACCURATE. I hope like hell he's NOT in the HVAC business... otherwise he's not only giving BAD advice on usenet, but his clients are likely to be living in dangerous homes!!!! Is true in America? The only thing true that Deke stated.... is on the line below... ________________________________________________ |
Cracked heat exchanger
On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 18:30:10 -0500, Steve Scott
wrote: On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 16:54:51 -0500, Deke wrote: Actually, the homes with these (ie not central air) are very vented, but the appliances I mentioned were not sold in quantity with the vented capability until the last decade or so. I'd guess about 90 percent of these appliances that are in use are NOT vented. The fact is the AGA's regulations tell us what and what is not allowed. Cracks in heat exchangers are not allowed. Since the AGA has said no crack or hole is acceptable what sort of legal defense would you mount if someone became ill or died regardless of whether or not the crack was relevant? BS Is that good? No, but neither is the fact that over 30 million people in the usa live below the poverty line. I.E. can't afford central 'vented' heat. BS. The average person below poverty in the US has multiple color TVs and a car. |
Cracked heat exchanger
"Deke" wrote in message ... On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 16:11:05 -0600, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote: "Ohly Smilgerizenia" wrote in message .. . Deke wrote: On 14 Mar 2007 10:58:14 -0700, wrote: Reportedly four year old 93% efficient furnace of unknown brand in a house the I am buying and just had inspected. Should the heat exchanger be replaced or the furnace replaced? The heat exchanger can be replaced. There is no safety issue if it's done properly. Absolutely not for safety reasons. On the other hand, the above responce with the others following are from a complete IDIOT. One of the biggest scams of the hvac business hoodlums is telling customers that the crack in their heat exchanger is dangerous and shut down the system. They can and do become dangerous... Since time began, no one has been made sick or died because of a cracked heat exchanger. Don't let those crooks tell you otherwise. You better do research next time, before you make yourself look like a complete IDIOT, Einstein. Did you know that there are tens of millions of americans that are burning fuel with 100 percent of the combustion byproducts being released inside the living quarters. You ever hear of coleman stoves or room heaters or wall furnaces? Do you realize that NOTHING burns 100% ? And this means that there is CO entering a home if the appliance isn't vented!! Good God man. Don't you realize that the vast majority of homes with these appliances are NOT vented. And EVERY one of them are introducing CO into the home. Now, I guess you are going to tell me CO isn't harmful. rolleyes Did you know that because the pressures involved just about guarantee that none of the combustion fumes from a cracked heat exchanger enter the airstream. BULL****!! You better go back to school to see if you can ACTUALLY learn something this time around. If you know of a crooked hvac person that actually shuts down the system with cracked heat exchanger, report him widely as a dishonest person. He is just trying to rob you and has the morals of a snake. Yeah, report him... he's just trying to save your life. That's a crime you know! The responce you recieved in this post by Deke is completely INACCURATE. I hope like hell he's NOT in the HVAC business... otherwise he's not only giving BAD advice on usenet, but his clients are likely to be living in dangerous homes!!!! Is true in America? The only thing true that Deke stated.... is on the line below... _______________________________________________ _ |
Cracked heat exchanger
"Deke" wrote in message ... On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 16:42:14 -0500, Deke wrote: On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 16:11:05 -0600, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote: "Ohly Smilgerizenia" wrote in message . .. Deke wrote: On 14 Mar 2007 10:58:14 -0700, wrote: Reportedly four year old 93% efficient furnace of unknown brand in a house the I am buying and just had inspected. Should the heat exchanger be replaced or the furnace replaced? The heat exchanger can be replaced. There is no safety issue if it's done properly. Absolutely not for safety reasons. On the other hand, the above responce with the others following are from a complete IDIOT. One of the biggest scams of the hvac business hoodlums is telling customers that the crack in their heat exchanger is dangerous and shut down the system. They can and do become dangerous... Since time began, no one has been made sick or died because of a cracked heat exchanger. Don't let those crooks tell you otherwise. You better do research next time, before you make yourself look like a complete IDIOT, Einstein. Did you know that there are tens of millions of americans that are burning fuel with 100 percent of the combustion byproducts being released inside the living quarters. You ever hear of coleman stoves or room heaters or wall furnaces? Do you realize that NOTHING burns 100% ? And this means that there is CO entering a home if the appliance isn't vented!! Good God man. Don't you realize that the vast majority of homes with these appliances are NOT vented. I said that wrong. Seems like you say everything WRONG! Actually, the homes with these (ie not central air) are very vented, but the appliances I mentioned were not sold in quantity with the vented capability until the last decade or so. I'd guess about 90 percent of these appliances that are in use are NOT vented. Is that good? No, but neither is the fact that over 30 million people in the usa live below the poverty line. I.E. can't afford central 'vented' heat. You're a complete IDIOT... quit talking about a subject which you know NOTHING about. All you are doing, is posting INACCURATE information for people to read. That is a SAFETY issue in itself. Did you know that because the pressures involved just about guarantee that none of the combustion fumes from a cracked heat exchanger enter the airstream. BULL****!! You better go back to school to see if you can ACTUALLY learn something this time around. If you know of a crooked hvac person that actually shuts down the system with cracked heat exchanger, report him widely as a dishonest person. He is just trying to rob you and has the morals of a snake. Yeah, report him... he's just trying to save your life. That's a crime you know! The responce you recieved in this post by Deke is completely INACCURATE. I hope like hell he's NOT in the HVAC business... otherwise he's not only giving BAD advice on usenet, but his clients are likely to be living in dangerous homes!!!! Is true in America? The only thing true that Deke stated.... is on the line below... ______________________________________________ __ |
Cracked heat exchanger
Dear Deke,
Please spend some time and research the difference between CO and CO2. Yes, there is a difference. I havn't any links, but I've heard from people I respect that a cracked heat exchanger can put enough carbon monoxide into the home to be dangerous. You'll have to figure out what's the chemical symbol of carbon monoxide, adn what's the other spelling used for. -- Christopher A. Young You can't shout down a troll. You have to starve them. .. "Deke" wrote in message news:n1sgv216s7tv6shp39lk8mccturd85e7r1@4ax. : Chris, did you read the next part (low risk condition) where it : says that you do NOT turn off the gas if there is no co2 being : released into the building and there is no flame roll out? : : In that case you just notify the owner and attach your tag. You do : NOT turn off the gas to the appliance! : : I strongly advise everyone to get a co2 detector and the repairman to : check out co2 levels of any home with a suspect appliance. : : But I also warn consumers of HVAC service that you NEVER let them : touch your gas shutoff valve - cracked heat exchanger or not - unless : they can show you code verse that gives them that authority. : : What is more likely at play is that they are robbing you blind. : : And I must say that code is not pure. Often the very crooks that : steal from consumers are the same ones that provide the code to the : city/county parish or other licensing authority. : : And finally, if they pull something on you, then get a lawyer and sue : their ass for fraud and deceptive trade practice. It costs you : nothing as the consumer laws provide the crooks to pay attorney fees. : : : . : : : |
Cracked heat exchanger
"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message ... Dear Deke, Please spend some time and research the difference between CO and CO2. Yes, there is a difference. I havn't any links, but I've heard from people I respect that a cracked heat exchanger can put enough carbon monoxide into the home to be dangerous. You'll have to figure out what's the chemical symbol of carbon monoxide, adn what's the other spelling used for. -- Christopher A. Young You can't shout down a troll. You have to starve them. . "Deke" wrote in message news:n1sgv216s7tv6shp39lk8mccturd85e7r1@4ax. : Chris, did you read the next part (low risk condition) where it : says that you do NOT turn off the gas if there is no co2 being : released into the building and there is no flame roll out? : : In that case you just notify the owner and attach your tag. You do : NOT turn off the gas to the appliance! : : I strongly advise everyone to get a co2 detector and the repairman to : check out co2 levels of any home with a suspect appliance. Man, you really are a clueless twit... You make Chris look like a professional. I will suggest AGAIN, that you quit posting about a subject, that you know NOTHING about. : But I also warn consumers of HVAC service that you NEVER let them : touch your gas shutoff valve - cracked heat exchanger or not - unless : they can show you code verse that gives them that authority. : : What is more likely at play is that they are robbing you blind. : : And I must say that code is not pure. Often the very crooks that : steal from consumers are the same ones that provide the code to the : city/county parish or other licensing authority. : : And finally, if they pull something on you, then get a lawyer and sue : their ass for fraud and deceptive trade practice. It costs you : nothing as the consumer laws provide the crooks to pay attorney fees. : : : . : : : |
Cracked heat exchanger
Cracked heat exchangers should be replaced. No argument there.
But most gas furnaces do not produce much co. The supply air is way over capacity. And the systems are designed so that a crack in the heat exchanger does not automatically result in combustion byproducts in the conditioned air. The air pressure outside the heat exchanger is higher than the air pressure inside the heat exchanger. The result is that air goes into the heat exchanger from the crack, not out of it. That's why the fan is always ahead of the heat exchanger. Bottom line is the unit produces a small amount of total co. Maybe a tiny amount of the total combustion product gets through the crack against the higher outside pressure. What you're talking about is a very small percentage of an already small percentage. I've seen significantly cracked/rusted heat exchangers, so cracked that the flames start dancing around when the fan kicks on. Obviously been leaking for a while. Yet these same houses have co detectors and they have never gone off. kjpro @ usenet.com wrote in message ... "Deke" wrote in message ... On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 16:11:05 -0600, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote: "Ohly Smilgerizenia" wrote in message .. . Deke wrote: On 14 Mar 2007 10:58:14 -0700, wrote: Reportedly four year old 93% efficient furnace of unknown brand in a house the I am buying and just had inspected. Should the heat exchanger be replaced or the furnace replaced? The heat exchanger can be replaced. There is no safety issue if it's done properly. Absolutely not for safety reasons. On the other hand, the above responce with the others following are from a complete IDIOT. One of the biggest scams of the hvac business hoodlums is telling customers that the crack in their heat exchanger is dangerous and shut down the system. They can and do become dangerous... Since time began, no one has been made sick or died because of a cracked heat exchanger. Don't let those crooks tell you otherwise. You better do research next time, before you make yourself look like a complete IDIOT, Einstein. Did you know that there are tens of millions of americans that are burning fuel with 100 percent of the combustion byproducts being released inside the living quarters. You ever hear of coleman stoves or room heaters or wall furnaces? Do you realize that NOTHING burns 100% ? And this means that there is CO entering a home if the appliance isn't vented!! Good God man. Don't you realize that the vast majority of homes with these appliances are NOT vented. And EVERY one of them are introducing CO into the home. Now, I guess you are going to tell me CO isn't harmful. rolleyes Did you know that because the pressures involved just about guarantee that none of the combustion fumes from a cracked heat exchanger enter the airstream. BULL****!! You better go back to school to see if you can ACTUALLY learn something this time around. If you know of a crooked hvac person that actually shuts down the system with cracked heat exchanger, report him widely as a dishonest person. He is just trying to rob you and has the morals of a snake. Yeah, report him... he's just trying to save your life. That's a crime you know! The responce you recieved in this post by Deke is completely INACCURATE. I hope like hell he's NOT in the HVAC business... otherwise he's not only giving BAD advice on usenet, but his clients are likely to be living in dangerous homes!!!! Is true in America? The only thing true that Deke stated.... is on the line below... _______________________________________________ _ |
Cracked heat exchanger
"Deke" wrote in message Sure there are lots of co2 deaths. Really? Can you point me to any? I'm getting concerned because the CO2 levels in my house are very high. I can even fell it every time I breath. And it reeks of nitrogen too. |
Cracked heat exchanger
On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 16:19:10 -0500, Deke wrote:
On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 16:27:58 -0400, "Charles Schuler" wrote: Yes it is possible to have carbon monoxide leak into the home from a heat exchanger in a inducer draft fan furnace. The pressure with in the heat exchanger is still greater then that out side it until the blower kicks in and even then the risk of pulling C02 in to the house air is present. Yes deaths have occurred here just a few: http://www.dailystandard.com/date/20.../headline2.htm (http://www.dailystandard.com/date/20.../headline2.htm) http://www.carbon-monoxide-poisoning...y.com/news.htm (http://www.carbon-monoxide-poisoning...y.com/news.htm) http://www.homesafe.com/coalert/cofacts.htm (http://www.homesafe.com/coalert/cofacts.htm) http://www.coheadquarters.com/COEpidem/coepidem02.htm (http://www.coheadquarters.com/COEpidem/coepidem02.htm Please look at the header and note that this discussion is only about cracked heat exchangers. Not one of the your postings concerns a death from a cracked heat exchanger. That's not true. I looked at three and this one from the list above includes that: http://www.homesafe.com/coalert/cofacts.htm The reason is because there has never been a death from a cracked heat exchanger. The moment anyone says "never", about something he couldn't possibly know, he looks foolish. Also, your response the man whose mother has Alzheimers marked you as slime. Sure there are lots of co2 deaths. And then there is this. Sure, there are lots of deaths from furnaces that are defective. But never has anyone died from a properly working furnace that happened to have a cracked heat exchanger. It is just physically impossible to get enough co2 into the living quarters to cause a fatality from a cracked heat exchanger. That's true, but your still talking about co2 instead of CO. Can't happn. Never happened and never will happen. |
Cracked heat exchanger
On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 13:21:49 -0600, Chris Friesen
wrote: wrote: Reportedly four year old 93% efficient furnace of unknown brand in a house the I am buying and just had inspected. Should the heat exchanger be replaced or the furnace replaced? At that efficiency the heat exchanger should be under lifetime warranty. Even if its not, it should still be well within the warranty period. The owner should be able to get it replaced for free. I don't know if such warranties are transferrable, maybe not, so this should be done *before* the house is sold. Chris |
Cracked heat exchanger
On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 13:21:49 -0600, Chris Friesen
wrote: wrote: Reportedly four year old 93% efficient furnace of unknown brand in a house the I am buying and just had inspected. Should the heat exchanger be replaced or the furnace replaced? At that efficiency the heat exchanger should be under lifetime warranty. Even if its not, it should still be well within the warranty period. The owner should be able to get it replaced for free. Not that you said otherwise. You said "owner" meaning the current one. Chris |
Cracked heat exchanger
On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 16:19:10 -0500, Deke wrote:
On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 16:27:58 -0400, "Charles Schuler" wrote: Yes it is possible to have carbon monoxide leak into the home from a heat exchanger in a inducer draft fan furnace. The pressure with in the heat exchanger is still greater then that out side it until the blower kicks in and even then the risk of pulling C02 in to the house air is present. Yes deaths have occurred here just a few: http://www.dailystandard.com/date/20.../headline2.htm (http://www.dailystandard.com/date/20.../headline2.htm) http://www.carbon-monoxide-poisoning...y.com/news.htm (http://www.carbon-monoxide-poisoning...y.com/news.htm) http://www.homesafe.com/coalert/cofacts.htm Before I just used find to look for heat exchanger, but I went back and read this page. It sounds phony to me, for reasons I would gladly explain. But I'm still right that the other poster was wrong when he said none of the urls here were about heat exchangers. And everything else in my immediately preceding post, I stand by. (http://www.homesafe.com/coalert/cofacts.htm) http://www.coheadquarters.com/COEpidem/coepidem02.htm (http://www.coheadquarters.com/COEpidem/coepidem02.htm |
Cracked heat exchanger
kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:
"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message ... Dear Deke, Please spend some time and research the difference between CO and CO2. Yes, there is a difference. I havn't any links, but I've heard from people I respect that a cracked heat exchanger can put enough carbon monoxide into the home to be dangerous. You'll have to figure out what's the chemical symbol of carbon monoxide, adn what's the other spelling used for. -- Christopher A. Young You can't shout down a troll. You have to starve them. . "Deke" wrote in message news:n1sgv216s7tv6shp39lk8mccturd85e7r1@4ax. Chris, did you read the next part (low risk condition) where it says that you do NOT turn off the gas if there is no co2 being released into the building and there is no flame roll out? In that case you just notify the owner and attach your tag. You do NOT turn off the gas to the appliance! I strongly advise everyone to get a co2 detector and the repairman to check out co2 levels of any home with a suspect appliance. Man, you really are a clueless twit... You make Chris look like a professional. I will suggest AGAIN, that you quit posting about a subject, that you know NOTHING about. Al Gore is a CO2 detector. He can be bought. |
Cracked heat exchanger
On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 18:30:10 -0500, Steve Scott
wrote: On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 16:54:51 -0500, Deke wrote: Actually, the homes with these (ie not central air) are very vented, but the appliances I mentioned were not sold in quantity with the vented capability until the last decade or so. I'd guess about 90 percent of these appliances that are in use are NOT vented. The fact is the AGA's regulations tell us what and what is not allowed. Cracks in heat exchangers are not allowed. Since the AGA has said no crack or hole is acceptable what sort of legal defense would you mount if someone became ill or died regardless of whether or not the crack was relevant? If the crack was not relevant, that would be the defense to a civil suit. People are only liable for their negligence if their negligence actually causes some harm. If it actually has something to do with causing the damages. How much relationship and proximate cause are things I don't remember and can't explain anymore. Of course it can be hard to prove it's not relevant, and it might be even harder to prove it to a jury which might be concerned about the poor person who suffered the damages. Because after all, how did they become ill or die if not because of something the owner of the house did that he shouldn't have done? He tripped and fell down the stairs? He tripped and felll down the stairs because he was groggy from the CO? But I still wanted to make the point. I see on tv court shows pretty something else that is similar. People who believe that if the other driver doesn't have a license, or has a suspended license, that is relevant to their civil suit against him, when really it's only whether or not he was driving negligently that is relevant. Being unlicensed is between him and the state government. Is that good? No, but neither is the fact that over 30 million people in the usa live below the poverty line. I.E. can't afford central 'vented' heat. BS. The average person below poverty in the US has multiple color TVs and a car. |
Cracked heat exchanger
On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 23:44:12 -0600, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:
"mm" wrote in message .. . On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 18:30:10 -0500, Steve Scott wrote: On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 16:54:51 -0500, Deke wrote: Actually, the homes with these (ie not central air) are very vented, but the appliances I mentioned were not sold in quantity with the vented capability until the last decade or so. I'd guess about 90 percent of these appliances that are in use are NOT vented. The fact is the AGA's regulations tell us what and what is not allowed. Cracks in heat exchangers are not allowed. Since the AGA has said no crack or hole is acceptable what sort of legal defense would you mount if someone became ill or died regardless of whether or not the crack was relevant? If the crack was not relevant, that would be the defense to a civil suit. People are only liable for their negligence if their negligence actually causes some harm. If it actually has something to do with causing the damages. How much relationship and proximate cause are things I don't remember and can't explain anymore. Of course it can be hard to prove it's not relevant, and it might be even harder to prove it to a jury which might be concerned about the poor person who suffered the damages. Because after all, how did they become ill or die if not because of something the owner of the house did that he shouldn't have done? He tripped and fell down the stairs? He tripped and felll down the stairs because he was groggy from the CO? But I still wanted to make the point. I see on tv court shows pretty something else that is similar. People who believe that if the other driver doesn't have a license, or has a suspended license, that is relevant to their civil suit against him, when really it's only whether or not he was driving negligently that is relevant. Being unlicensed is between him and the state government. The smart man covers his ass... why take on liability for something that's an unacceptable to leave in service? I didnt' say he should leave anything in service. I was just explaining the law on the matter. The law is that people are only liable for their negligence if their negligence actually causes some harm. But I also pointed out that he might lose in court even he wasn't responsible. I think it is Maryland where they just found out that a ballistics expert who testified in many cases didn't have two academic degrees like he said, and lied about other parts of his resume too, and may not have been qualified at all. And yet in one case, his testimony was, according to the jurors, responsible for someone's conviction and for the jury's recommending daath. And they exectuted him; the guy is dead now. And the "expert", when people started suspecting he had been lying, killed himself. One cannot count on things going right in court. Is that good? No, but neither is the fact that over 30 million people in the usa live below the poverty line. I.E. can't afford central 'vented' heat. BS. The average person below poverty in the US has multiple color TVs and a car. |
Cracked heat exchanger
On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 23:40:12 -0600, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:
CO detectors that you buy at the big lot stores are a complete joke. Have you even looked at UL-2034 that regulates CO detector alarm specs? I haven't and unless someone posts it, I'm not going to. If you have, you know that MOST store bought detectors are useless. Not the one that went off when I had CO. It woke me up. It was store bought. It was far louder than necessary, and all I had when it went off was a very small headache. So it went off soon enough. There are detectors out there that will alarm and detect low levels of CO, but most people run from them when they hear they cost $200+ We agree. Very few people will spend 200 dollars. If you actually convince people that they have to have one that expensive, most of the people you convince will buy nothing. Why would you want to do that. Have you heard the expression, "Don't let perfect be the enemy of good." I guess everyone must evaluate what their life is worth.... All life decisions involve weighing the odds. How many people in the US die of CO each year? Multiply that by 80 and divide by 300,000,000 to do a first estimate of the odds of any one person dying of CO in his lifetime. They're very low, whether someone has a CO detector or not. He might get more safety for his 300 dollars by buying better tires, or part of the cost of ABS brakes, or other things. Especially when 40 dollar CO detectors work pretty well. |
Cracked heat exchanger
"James" wrote in message k.net... Cracked heat exchangers should be replaced. No argument there. But most gas furnaces do not produce much co. The supply air is way over capacity. And the systems are designed so that a crack in the heat exchanger does not automatically result in combustion byproducts in the conditioned air. The air pressure outside the heat exchanger is higher than the air pressure inside the heat exchanger. The result is that air goes into the heat exchanger from the crack, not out of it. That's why the fan is always ahead of the heat exchanger. Bottom line is the unit produces a small amount of total co. Maybe a tiny amount of the total combustion product gets through the crack against the higher outside pressure. What you're talking about is a very small percentage of an already small percentage. First off, each furnace operates differently and the conditions will effect each situation. I've seen significantly cracked/rusted heat exchangers, so cracked that the flames start dancing around when the fan kicks on. Obviously been leaking for a while. Yet these same houses have co detectors and they have never gone off. Wow, you discovered something new here.... NOT CO detectors that you buy at the big lot stores are a complete joke. Have you even looked at UL-2034 that regulates CO detector alarm specs? If you have, you know that MOST store bought detectors are useless. There are detectors out there that will alarm and detect low levels of CO, but most people run from them when they hear they cost $200+ I guess everyone must evaluate what their life is worth.... kjpro @ usenet.com wrote in message ... "Deke" wrote in message ... On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 16:11:05 -0600, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote: "Ohly Smilgerizenia" wrote in message .. . Deke wrote: On 14 Mar 2007 10:58:14 -0700, wrote: Reportedly four year old 93% efficient furnace of unknown brand in a house the I am buying and just had inspected. Should the heat exchanger be replaced or the furnace replaced? The heat exchanger can be replaced. There is no safety issue if it's done properly. Absolutely not for safety reasons. On the other hand, the above responce with the others following are from a complete IDIOT. One of the biggest scams of the hvac business hoodlums is telling customers that the crack in their heat exchanger is dangerous and shut down the system. They can and do become dangerous... Since time began, no one has been made sick or died because of a cracked heat exchanger. Don't let those crooks tell you otherwise. You better do research next time, before you make yourself look like a complete IDIOT, Einstein. Did you know that there are tens of millions of americans that are burning fuel with 100 percent of the combustion byproducts being released inside the living quarters. You ever hear of coleman stoves or room heaters or wall furnaces? Do you realize that NOTHING burns 100% ? And this means that there is CO entering a home if the appliance isn't vented!! Good God man. Don't you realize that the vast majority of homes with these appliances are NOT vented. And EVERY one of them are introducing CO into the home. Now, I guess you are going to tell me CO isn't harmful. rolleyes Did you know that because the pressures involved just about guarantee that none of the combustion fumes from a cracked heat exchanger enter the airstream. BULL****!! You better go back to school to see if you can ACTUALLY learn something this time around. If you know of a crooked hvac person that actually shuts down the system with cracked heat exchanger, report him widely as a dishonest person. He is just trying to rob you and has the morals of a snake. Yeah, report him... he's just trying to save your life. That's a crime you know! The responce you recieved in this post by Deke is completely INACCURATE. I hope like hell he's NOT in the HVAC business... otherwise he's not only giving BAD advice on usenet, but his clients are likely to be living in dangerous homes!!!! Is true in America? The only thing true that Deke stated.... is on the line below... _______________________________________________ _ |
Cracked heat exchanger
"mm" wrote in message ... On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 18:30:10 -0500, Steve Scott wrote: On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 16:54:51 -0500, Deke wrote: Actually, the homes with these (ie not central air) are very vented, but the appliances I mentioned were not sold in quantity with the vented capability until the last decade or so. I'd guess about 90 percent of these appliances that are in use are NOT vented. The fact is the AGA's regulations tell us what and what is not allowed. Cracks in heat exchangers are not allowed. Since the AGA has said no crack or hole is acceptable what sort of legal defense would you mount if someone became ill or died regardless of whether or not the crack was relevant? If the crack was not relevant, that would be the defense to a civil suit. People are only liable for their negligence if their negligence actually causes some harm. If it actually has something to do with causing the damages. How much relationship and proximate cause are things I don't remember and can't explain anymore. Of course it can be hard to prove it's not relevant, and it might be even harder to prove it to a jury which might be concerned about the poor person who suffered the damages. Because after all, how did they become ill or die if not because of something the owner of the house did that he shouldn't have done? He tripped and fell down the stairs? He tripped and felll down the stairs because he was groggy from the CO? But I still wanted to make the point. I see on tv court shows pretty something else that is similar. People who believe that if the other driver doesn't have a license, or has a suspended license, that is relevant to their civil suit against him, when really it's only whether or not he was driving negligently that is relevant. Being unlicensed is between him and the state government. The smart man covers his ass... why take on liability for something that's an unacceptable to leave in service? Is that good? No, but neither is the fact that over 30 million people in the usa live below the poverty line. I.E. can't afford central 'vented' heat. BS. The average person below poverty in the US has multiple color TVs and a car. |
Cracked heat exchanger
mm wrote:
I guess everyone must evaluate what their life is worth.... All life decisions involve weighing the odds. How many people in the US die of CO each year? Multiply that by 80 and divide by 300,000,000 to do a first estimate of the odds of any one person dying of CO in his lifetime. They're very low, whether someone has a CO detector or not. He might get more safety for his 300 dollars by buying better tires, or part of the cost of ABS brakes, or other things. Especially when 40 dollar CO detectors work pretty well. For the cost of a new heat exchanger, 100 African babies could be saved, 10,000 Bangladeshies could be vaccinated against typhoid, or I could have a really good meal and maybe a lap-dance. It's a value decision. |
Cracked heat exchanger
"Steve Scott" wrote in message ... CO concerns aren't related to just death although that rates right up there. Chronic low level CO exposure is or should be a concern for anyone who's pregnant or elderly, or has elderly people or very young children in their household. Levels well below the amounts a UL listed CO detector can alarm at are an issue. While this site isn't laid out particularly well, there is a lot of information here. www.coheadquarters.com/CO1.htm This chart is a good, quick guide. www.coheadquarters.com/ZerotoMillion1.htm Good stuff, so lets cut to the chase.... here's the basics on what over the counter CO detectors are *supposed to do*. http://www.coheadquarters.com/CODanger/codetector7.htm Here's the MSDS from NIOSH http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/npg/npgd0105.html Now... compare the 2 and see how safe you really are with a CO detector from a big box store. |
Cracked heat exchanger
I agree with Deke.
Two years ago a serviceman out on a "tune up" call reported a crack....and I could see what looked like a crack. But I didn't have the money for a new furnace, so I went and bought two hi-end Co2 detectors instead...to tide me over. In two years they have NEVER gone off! And I have decided there won't be a replacement furnace until they sound the alarm. I too had heard all the rumors about dying in my sleep from a cracked heat exchanger...but so far, no alarms and no morning after headaches. Deke wrote: On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 14:36:18 -0600, Chris Friesen wrote: Chris Friesen wrote: Deke wrote: On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 13:24:00 -0600, Chris Friesen wrote: Around here they're legally required to tag it and notify the gas company. It then has to be replaced in 30 days or the gas will be shut off. Please post the web site of the code that says that. I can't...its not available online, and it costs about $180 for a copy. After some more digging, I did find something. See the "Red Tag Program" link at: http://www.saskpower.com/yourbus/cb/cb.shtml It looks like its even more stringent than I thought. According to that document, a cracked heat exchanger is technically considered a "hazardous condition". This requires either immediate repair or else turning off the gas to the appliance and notifying the gas utility. Chris Chris, did you read the next part (low risk condition) where it says that you do NOT turn off the gas if there is no co2 being released into the building and there is no flame roll out? In that case you just notify the owner and attach your tag. You do NOT turn off the gas to the appliance! I strongly advise everyone to get a co2 detector and the repairman to check out co2 levels of any home with a suspect appliance. But I also warn consumers of HVAC service that you NEVER let them touch your gas shutoff valve - cracked heat exchanger or not - unless they can show you code verse that gives them that authority. What is more likely at play is that they are robbing you blind. And I must say that code is not pure. Often the very crooks that steal from consumers are the same ones that provide the code to the city/county parish or other licensing authority. And finally, if they pull something on you, then get a lawyer and sue their ass for fraud and deceptive trade practice. It costs you nothing as the consumer laws provide the crooks to pay attorney fees. . |
Cracked heat exchanger
"jamesgangnc" wrote in message oups.com... On Mar 14, 11:56 pm, wrote: On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 01:58:49 GMT, "James" wrote: Cracked heat exchangers should be replaced. No argument there. But most gas furnaces do not produce much co. The supply air is way over capacity. And the systems are designed so that a crack in the heat exchanger does not automatically result in combustion byproducts in the conditioned air. The air pressure outside the heat exchanger is higher than the air pressure inside the heat exchanger. The result is that air goes into the heat exchanger from the crack, not out of it. That's why the fan is always ahead of the heat exchanger. Bottom line is the unit produces a small amount of total co. Maybe a tiny amount of the total combustion product gets through the crack against the higher outside pressure. What you're talking about is a very small percentage of an already small percentage. I've seen significantly cracked/rusted heat exchangers, so cracked that the flames start dancing around when the fan kicks on. Obviously been leaking for a while. Yet these same houses have co detectors and they have never gone off. Obviously James you do not represent a journeyman level of technician if you fail to red tag such situations. Its black & white in the building code. Have you ever read the mechanical codes? As Bubba said, you'd be wise to educate yourself on levels of co that are hazardous to human health and the levels that are required to trigger most UL approved smoke detectors. kjpro @ usenet.com wrote in message . .. "Deke" wrote in message . .. On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 16:11:05 -0600, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote: "Ohly Smilgerizenia" wrote in message .. . Deke wrote: On 14 Mar 2007 10:58:14 -0700, wrote: Reportedly four year old 93% efficient furnace of unknown brand in a house the I am buying and just had inspected. Should the heat exchanger be replaced or the furnace replaced? The heat exchanger can be replaced. There is no safety issue if it's done properly. Absolutely not for safety reasons. On the other hand, the above responce with the others following are from a complete IDIOT. One of the biggest scams of the hvac business hoodlums is telling customers that the crack in their heat exchanger is dangerous and shut down the system. They can and do become dangerous... Since time began, no one has been made sick or died because of a cracked heat exchanger. Don't let those crooks tell you otherwise. You better do research next time, before you make yourself look like a complete IDIOT, Einstein. Did you know that there are tens of millions of americans that are burning fuel with 100 percent of the combustion byproducts being released inside the living quarters. You ever hear of coleman stoves or room heaters or wall furnaces? Do you realize that NOTHING burns 100% ? And this means that there is CO entering a home if the appliance isn't vented!! Good God man. Don't you realize that the vast majority of homes with these appliances are NOT vented. And EVERY one of them are introducing CO into the home. Now, I guess you are going to tell me CO isn't harmful. rolleyes Did you know that because the pressures involved just about guarantee that none of the combustion fumes from a cracked heat exchanger enter the airstream. BULL****!! You better go back to school to see if you can ACTUALLY learn something this time around. If you know of a crooked hvac person that actually shuts down the system with cracked heat exchanger, report him widely as a dishonest person. He is just trying to rob you and has the morals of a snake. Yeah, report him... he's just trying to save your life. That's a crime you know! The responce you recieved in this post by Deke is completely INACCURATE. I hope like hell he's NOT in the HVAC business... otherwise he's not only giving BAD advice on usenet, but his clients are likely to be living in dangerous homes!!!! Is true in America? The only thing true that Deke stated.... is on the line below... _______________________________________________ _- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I said it should be replaced in the very first sentence. But the big co scare that some technicians like to put on their customers is bull. The units are engineered to deal with a crack because otherwise the manufacturer would have been sued out of business long ago. Not always. |
Cracked heat exchanger
"mm" wrote in message ... On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 23:40:12 -0600, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote: CO detectors that you buy at the big lot stores are a complete joke. Have you even looked at UL-2034 that regulates CO detector alarm specs? I haven't and unless someone posts it, I'm not going to. So don't do a little research on your own... that's common here. I even gave you the item to research... If you have, you know that MOST store bought detectors are useless. Not the one that went off when I had CO. It woke me up. It was store bought. It was far louder than necessary, and all I had when it went off was a very small headache. So it went off soon enough. There are detectors out there that will alarm and detect low levels of CO, but most people run from them when they hear they cost $200+ We agree. Very few people will spend 200 dollars. If you actually convince people that they have to have one that expensive, most of the people you convince will buy nothing. Why would you want to do that. Have you heard the expression, "Don't let perfect be the enemy of good." I guess everyone must evaluate what their life is worth.... All life decisions involve weighing the odds. How many people in the US die of CO each year? Multiply that by 80 and divide by 300,000,000 to do a first estimate of the odds of any one person dying of CO in his lifetime. They're very low, whether someone has a CO detector or not. He might get more safety for his 300 dollars by buying better tires, or part of the cost of ABS brakes, or other things. A life is a life, I could careless WHAT the percentage is, if it happens to be a friend or relative. Especially when 40 dollar CO detectors work pretty well. |
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