Is a burglar alarm box a junction box? It's metal and has knockouts
just like a metal junction box. Is it sufficient to contain 110v
wires?

I'm only thinking of putting "a little" bit of 110 volts in the box,
110 coming in, the hot wire going to one side of a relay switch and
the other side of the relay switch sending the hot to the hall light
switch box and the dining room light switch box, a total of 230 watts.

The coil of the relay will be controlled by the burglar alarm, so that
these lights go on when I arm the alarm and when I come in the front
door. How does this sound? I plan to put the relay in its own small
metal box, lined witha non-conductor.

mm wrote:
Is a burglar alarm box a junction box? It's metal and has knockouts
just like a metal junction box. Is it sufficient to contain 110v
wires?

I'm only thinking of putting "a little" bit of 110 volts in the box,
110 coming in, the hot wire going to one side of a relay switch and
the other side of the relay switch sending the hot to the hall light
switch box and the dining room light switch box, a total of 230 watts.

The coil of the relay will be controlled by the burglar alarm, so that
these lights go on when I arm the alarm and when I come in the front
door. How does this sound? I plan to put the relay in its own small
metal box, lined witha non-conductor.

I was all set to say fine, but then "a little" and no mention of the neutral
and ground connections and such made me change my mind to: Get an
electrician to do this for you. You aren't qualified.
Whether it can be legal or not; call your local code enforcement office
& ask.

Pop`

On Thu, 11 Jan 2007 17:54:23 GMT, "Pop`"
wrote:

mm wrote:
Is a burglar alarm box a junction box? It's metal and has knockouts
just like a metal junction box. Is it sufficient to contain 110v
wires?

I'm only thinking of putting "a little" bit of 110 volts in the box,
110 coming in, the hot wire going to one side of a relay switch and
the other side of the relay switch sending the hot to the hall light
switch box and the dining room light switch box, a total of 230 watts.

The coil of the relay will be controlled by the burglar alarm, so that
these lights go on when I arm the alarm and when I come in the front
door. How does this sound? I plan to put the relay in its own small
metal box, lined witha non-conductor.

I was all set to say fine, but then "a little" and no mention of the neutral
and ground connections and such made me change my mind to: Get an
electrician to do this for you. You aren't qualified.

I could connect the neutral and ground. The original light circuit
and the switch boxes already have neutrals and grounds, but you're
saying the neutral and ground which accompany the hot wire in the
romex should be connected at both ends, right?

Is there ever an occasion where a hot wire is run alone?

Whether it can be legal or not; call your local code enforcement office
& ask.

They have this feature on current alarms and had it on the Moose
Alarms sold 23 years ago. And my friend with the alarm business knew
about the feature. Although I guess he didnt' actually say he ever
used it, so I'll ask him or call the code office. (He cares about
legal, so if he doens't use it and doesn't know, he'll tell me that.)

Pop`

The coil of the relay will be controlled by the burglar alarm, so that
these lights go on when I arm the alarm and when I come in the front
door. How does this sound? I plan to put the relay in its own small
metal box, lined witha non-conductor.

IMO you are treading on dangerous ground as you are putting 120 volt and
"control" wiring in the same box. Of course, that's done all the time in
appliances and furnaces but these "boxes" get some kind of UL or whatever
approval.

You have some options:

1) Be careful but go ahead and put both 120 and low voltage wiring in the
same container. Hope and pray you don't make a mistake and also that your
don't have problems which might expose you to some liability.

2) Buy some approved apparatus that has a "low voltage" side and a "high
voltage" side.

2a) One example might be the X-10 gadget that plugs into the wall for the
"high voltage" side and has some screw terminals for the "low voltage" side.
These have options including send "ON" when an external contact closes and
"OFF" when the external contact opens. Other X-10 devices would switch the
lamp load. This is the quick and dirty "off the shelf" approach.

2b) A transformer/relay "package" that is approved and has isolated high
and low voltage sides. The "high voltage" wiring would come out in an
attached J-box. The "low voltage" stuff would be screw terminals. I have
seen this but would not know where to get my hand on it.

On Thu, 11 Jan 2007 12:48:18 -0500, "John Gilmer"
wrote:




The coil of the relay will be controlled by the burglar alarm, so that
these lights go on when I arm the alarm and when I come in the front
door. How does this sound? I plan to put the relay in its own small
metal box, lined witha non-conductor.

IMO you are treading on dangerous ground as you are putting 120 volt and
"control" wiring in the same box. Of course, that's done all the time in
appliances and furnaces but these "boxes" get some kind of UL or whatever
approval.

You have some options:

1) Be careful but go ahead and put both 120 and low voltage wiring in the
same container. Hope and pray you don't make a mistake and also that your
don't have problems which might expose you to some liability.

I didn't say so, but I actually had it running this way with the old
burglar alarm, which eventually failed (after about 18 or 20 years).

2) Buy some approved apparatus that has a "low voltage" side and a "high
voltage" side.

2a) One example might be the X-10 gadget that plugs into the wall for the
"high voltage" side and has some screw terminals for the "low voltage" side.
These have options including send "ON" when an external contact closes and
"OFF" when the external contact opens. Other X-10 devices would switch the
lamp load. This is the quick and dirty "off the shelf" approach.

Doesn't X-10 all depend on radio transmissions. I'm going to use that
to flash the porch light when the alarm goes off, but that's not
critical. If at all possible, I like to use hard-wired things.

2b) A transformer/relay "package" that is approved and has isolated high
and low voltage sides. The "high voltage" wiring would come out in an
attached J-box. The "low voltage" stuff would be screw terminals. I have
seen this but would not know where to get my hand on it.

Well, what it has now, the professional quality alarm (used by a
friend with an alarm business and over 1000 customers) comes with its
own big wall wart, 16.5 volts. The 110 has to be the same phase as
what supplies those light bulbs at other times, through their
respective switches, because if the light is already on when I arm the
alarm, I have to have the same phase 110 going to the lightbulb
through both sources. I'm sure even one reading already knows that.

I guess I could use a big, 250 or more watt isolation transformer. I
think it would be expensive to buy and it would have to run all the
time, just for those 2 minutes when I leave the house or return.
Whereas, what I had in mind wouldn't cost any additional money for
installation or running.

..

Doesn't X-10 all depend on radio transmissions.

X-10 sends its signals over the power wires. There is a "new" system (the
same folks that sell X-10 will also sell the new stuff) that uses RF.

I'm going to use that
to flash the porch light when the alarm goes off, but that's not
critical. If at all possible, I like to use hard-wired things.

Well, if the transmitter and receiver are on the same 120 volt circuit, it's
pretty reliable.


2b) A transformer/relay "package" that is approved and has isolated high
and low voltage sides. The "high voltage" wiring would come out in an
attached J-box. The "low voltage" stuff would be screw terminals. I
have
seen this but would not know where to get my hand on it.

Well, what it has now, the professional quality alarm (used by a
friend with an alarm business and over 1000 customers) comes with its
own big wall wart, 16.5 volts. The 110 has to be the same phase as
what supplies those light bulbs at other times, through their
respective switches, because if the light is already on when I arm the
alarm, I have to have the same phase 110 going to the lightbulb
through both sources. I'm sure even one reading already knows that.

I guess I could use a big, 250 or more watt isolation transformer. I
think it would be expensive to buy and it would have to run all the
time, just for those 2 minutes when I leave the house or return.
Whereas, what I had in mind wouldn't cost any additional money for
installation or running.

On Thu, 11 Jan 2007 22:00:24 -0500, "John Gilmer"
wrote:


Doesn't X-10 all depend on radio transmissions.

X-10 sends its signals over the power wires. There is a "new" system (the
same folks that sell X-10 will also sell the new stuff) that uses RF.

I'm going to use that
to flash the porch light when the alarm goes off, but that's not
critical. If at all possible, I like to use hard-wired things.

Well, if the transmitter and receiver are on the same 120 volt circuit, it's
pretty reliable.

Come to think of it, turning the hall light on is not critical either!

[snip]

2a) One example might be the X-10 gadget that plugs into the wall for the
"high voltage" side and has some screw terminals for the "low voltage" side.
These have options including send "ON" when an external contact closes and
"OFF" when the external contact opens. Other X-10 devices would switch the
lamp load. This is the quick and dirty "off the shelf" approach.

Doesn't X-10 all depend on radio transmissions.

No. Most doesn't.

I'm going to use that
to flash the porch light when the alarm goes off, but that's not
critical. If at all possible, I like to use hard-wired things.


X10 is a power line carrier system, where the signals are modulated on
121KHz bursts that are sent along the power line during zero-crossing.
This is an old, slow protocol with little error correction.

There are related devices that transmit through the air, but normally
X10 does not.

Because of the powerline dependence, you will not be able to use X10
across power transformers, and may have problems controlling devices
on the other AC phase.
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent
force for atheism ever conceived." -- Isaac Asimov

"mm" wrote in message
...
Is a burglar alarm box a junction box? It's metal and has knockouts
just like a metal junction box. Is it sufficient to contain 110v
wires?

I'm only thinking of putting "a little" bit of 110 volts in the box,
110 coming in, the hot wire going to one side of a relay switch and
the other side of the relay switch sending the hot to the hall light
switch box and the dining room light switch box, a total of 230 watts.

The coil of the relay will be controlled by the burglar alarm, so that
these lights go on when I arm the alarm and when I come in the front
door. How does this sound? I plan to put the relay in its own small
metal box, lined witha non-conductor.

I would add another box, connected to the alarm box with a 1/2"
plumbing nipple and those thin nuts that fasten conduit fittings into
sheet metal boxes. Use two - one inside the box and one outside.
Run the low voltage into the added box through the nipple to
operate the relay there.

Bob

On Thu, 11 Jan 2007 12:29:49 -0500, mm
wrote:

Is a burglar alarm box a junction box? It's metal and has knockouts
just like a metal junction box. Is it sufficient to contain 110v
wires?

I'm only thinking of putting "a little" bit of 110 volts in the box,
110 coming in, the hot wire going to one side of a relay switch and
the other side of the relay switch sending the hot to the hall light
switch box and the dining room light switch box, a total of 230 watts.

The coil of the relay will be controlled by the burglar alarm, so that
these lights go on when I arm the alarm and when I come in the front
door. How does this sound? I plan to put the relay in its own small
metal box, lined witha non-conductor.

The installations I've seen of burglar alarms, fire alarms, pbx and
computer network boxes have all been set up with the electric
completely separate. Typically the electric is run in and terminated
with regular three prong 120 volt outlets. Then the alarm installers
(and other system installers) nail a hunk of plywood to the wall, hang
all their stuff on that, and plug it in to the 120 volt outlet just
like you'd plug in a toaster. Same was true in our parking lot with
the stuff all in the same large metal enclosure. Separate electric,
plywood bolted to the inside of the metal enclosure, etc.

"Ashton Crusher" wrote in message
...

The installations I've seen of burglar alarms, fire alarms, pbx and
computer network boxes have all been set up with the electric
completely separate. Typically the electric is run in and terminated
with regular three prong 120 volt outlets. Then the alarm installers
(and other system installers) nail a hunk of plywood to the wall, hang
all their stuff on that, and plug it in to the 120 volt outlet just
like you'd plug in a toaster.

That's how we do it.

_Years_ ago (decades, actually), alarms were wired with 120v directly into
the back of the box, either hard-wired or plug-in.

I prefer the current way of doing it - with a 16.5v transformer!

On Fri, 12 Jan 2007 18:21:58 -0700, "Bob M." wrote:


"Ashton Crusher" wrote in message
.. .

The installations I've seen of burglar alarms, fire alarms, pbx and
computer network boxes have all been set up with the electric
completely separate. Typically the electric is run in and terminated
with regular three prong 120 volt outlets. Then the alarm installers
(and other system installers) nail a hunk of plywood to the wall, hang
all their stuff on that, and plug it in to the 120 volt outlet just
like you'd plug in a toaster.

That's how we do it.

_Years_ ago (decades, actually), alarms were wired with 120v directly into
the back of the box, either hard-wired or plug-in.

I prefer the current way of doing it - with a 16.5v transformer!

But how does this all relate to using the burglar alarm keypad to turn
on the hall and dining room lights, when I leave and return?

On Sat, 13 Jan 2007 00:13:46 -0500, mm
wrote:

On Fri, 12 Jan 2007 18:21:58 -0700, "Bob M." wrote:


"Ashton Crusher" wrote in message
. ..

The installations I've seen of burglar alarms, fire alarms, pbx and
computer network boxes have all been set up with the electric
completely separate. Typically the electric is run in and terminated
with regular three prong 120 volt outlets. Then the alarm installers
(and other system installers) nail a hunk of plywood to the wall, hang
all their stuff on that, and plug it in to the 120 volt outlet just
like you'd plug in a toaster.

That's how we do it.

_Years_ ago (decades, actually), alarms were wired with 120v directly into
the back of the box, either hard-wired or plug-in.

I prefer the current way of doing it - with a 16.5v transformer!

But how does this all relate to using the burglar alarm keypad to turn
on the hall and dining room lights, when I leave and return?

It seems likely that your burglar alarm should have an "output" set up
to control a relay. Just like it has an internal output that turns
the red light on to tell you it's armed. Assuming it has such an
output you would use that to control a relay in parallel to the hall
and dining room light switches. Alarm on = relay on = lights on.
--
Elbridge Gerry, of Massachusetts:

"What, sir, is the use of militia? It is to prevent the
establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty. . .
Whenever Government means to invade the rights and liberties of
the people, they always attempt to destroy the militia, in order
to raise a standing army upon its ruins." -- Debate, U.S. House
of Representatives, August 17, 1789