I got 3 bids for replacing my old broken clay 4" (?) drainage lateral,
and I went with the first bid. They did the snake camera thing and
didn't charge me and their bid was much lower than the other two ($4,200
vs. over $6000 for the other two).

Today, they arrived to do the work. They said they'd do the trenchless
replacement tomorrow and dug the holes today (7 holes in all, I
believe). They had to use a jackhammer in several places to remove
concrete.

They roused me from inside the house several times for one reason or
another, but one time it was to show me that the old galvanized water
main pipe had a major leak (it was spraying water pretty fast). They
said (I think!) that it was 1/2" pipe! They said I must have had
elevated water bills and I said my water usage had actually been very
small (less than $5/month before all the water treatment and sewage
charges, etc. etc.). They then said it had been a slow leak but the
disturbance they'd made had increased it. They told one of the guys to
run and shut off the main.

I'd presumed that the guy who'd worked up my bid when he came around
later in the day would discuss fixing this or replacing it, since it's a
pretty major thing, but he didn't mention it. Still, I assumed he had
some ideas concerning this, and I'd hear about it later. I had other
fish to fry with him because I have an upstairs tub drain that's clogged
(all my efforts and those of another guy have failed), and there's the
matter of wetness under my downstairs bathroom. He said since I was
doing a $4000 job with them, he'd send a guy out for free who would try
to snake out the tub drain. If that didn't work, there would be charges
to do whatever is necessary if I agreed to the work. That might (worst
case) involve replacing the tub drain, which goes through the walls of
the first and second story (rather involved!).

The wetness under the downstairs bathroom he said they'd know more about
later in the day.

So, the bidder/foreman leaves and his workers put a temporary clamp on
the pipe that slows the leak to the point where they can turn on the
water main again. Then one guy takes me aside (a latino guy) and tells
me he can replace the water main pipe in his spare time ("Saturday") and
will charge me a good price - $3000. He says to sound out the foreman
what he would charge and not tell him about our side thing and then
decide if I want him to do it. A little later he rouses me and says he
has a friend who will do it cheaper - $2000 or $1800 depending on the
length of the pipe, evidently. They tell me it's around 80 to 90 feet.
The house is almost 100 years old and the meter is at the sidewalk and
the only shutoff is right at the meter. He has me talk right to his
latino "friend" on his cell phone. They inform me afterward that this
guy is one of their foremen and quite experienced. I was told by one of
the women in their office that their crews (13 guys in all) have all
been together at least 6 years.

This guy proposes to use either 3/4" or 1" copper pipe, probably 1" and
he said he already has the pipe. They all encourage me to go ahead and
see what the company would charge for replacing the water main pipe and
then decide if I want this guy to do it instead of the company.

I'm unclear where they are with the wetness under the downstairs
bathroom (their English is pretty fractured) -- they found bamboo roots
thickly around where the galvanized drains meet the clay lateral pipes.

I'm wondering a number of things. Firstly, if this is going to be
outside the law -- IOW, is a permit required to replace the water main
pipe and if so, are they going to comply with the permit process.
Indeed, my contract with the plumbing company to replace my sewer
lateral ("approximately 90 feet") says that their bid doesn't include
permit fees, and I have no information from anyone concerning permits,
if they have pulled them and what the fees are going to be.

I called mid-afternoon and asked to talk to the foreman/bidder and was
told he would call me back probably in a minute or two. He didn't call
me. So, I have nothing to compare bids with... yet, and won't at least
until the crew comes to complete the drainage repairs tomorrow.

I am thinking maybe I should get some more bids, not just this plumbing
company and one of it's foremen working on his own (although they told
me that 2 of the 3 on the crew today would help this guy). I figure I
can say "give me a phone number and I'll call you if I decide to have
you do it." However, I'm kind of worried about the present water leak. I
already have a bunch of sink holes and a seriously depressed section of
driveway out there from the bad drainage system, and possibly also due
to that break in the water main (and maybe other breaks). So, I figure
whatever I do, I should do it quick.

Truly, this is only the second time I have ever dealt with home repair
contractors, and I'm less than confident. I'm almost in my mid-60's, but
am in pretty good shape, so doing my own repair work isn't out of the
question here. However, I don't know how long I can live without running
water!! I guess maybe I should field a number of bids.

Is copper best or should I consider plastic? If copper, L or is K OK?
1"?

Thanks for sage and considered advice!

Dan

Dan_Musicant wrote:

I got 3 bids for replacing my old broken clay 4" (?) drainage lateral,
and I went with the first bid. They did the snake camera thing and
didn't charge me and their bid was much lower than the other two ($4,200
vs. over $6000 for the other two).

Today, they arrived to do the work. They said they'd do the trenchless
replacement tomorrow and dug the holes today (7 holes in all, I
believe). They had to use a jackhammer in several places to remove
concrete.

They roused me from inside the house several times for one reason or
another, but one time it was to show me that the old galvanized water
main pipe had a major leak (it was spraying water pretty fast). They
said (I think!) that it was 1/2" pipe! They said I must have had
elevated water bills and I said my water usage had actually been very
small (less than $5/month before all the water treatment and sewage
charges, etc. etc.). They then said it had been a slow leak but the
disturbance they'd made had increased it. They told one of the guys to
run and shut off the main.

I'd presumed that the guy who'd worked up my bid when he came around
later in the day would discuss fixing this or replacing it, since it's a
pretty major thing, but he didn't mention it. Still, I assumed he had
some ideas concerning this, and I'd hear about it later. I had other
fish to fry with him because I have an upstairs tub drain that's clogged
(all my efforts and those of another guy have failed), and there's the
matter of wetness under my downstairs bathroom. He said since I was
doing a $4000 job with them, he'd send a guy out for free who would try
to snake out the tub drain. If that didn't work, there would be charges
to do whatever is necessary if I agreed to the work. That might (worst
case) involve replacing the tub drain, which goes through the walls of
the first and second story (rather involved!).

The wetness under the downstairs bathroom he said they'd know more about
later in the day.

So, the bidder/foreman leaves and his workers put a temporary clamp on
the pipe that slows the leak to the point where they can turn on the
water main again. Then one guy takes me aside (a latino guy) and tells
me he can replace the water main pipe in his spare time ("Saturday") and
will charge me a good price - $3000. He says to sound out the foreman
what he would charge and not tell him about our side thing and then
decide if I want him to do it. A little later he rouses me and says he
has a friend who will do it cheaper - $2000 or $1800 depending on the
length of the pipe, evidently. They tell me it's around 80 to 90 feet.
The house is almost 100 years old and the meter is at the sidewalk and
the only shutoff is right at the meter. He has me talk right to his
latino "friend" on his cell phone. They inform me afterward that this
guy is one of their foremen and quite experienced. I was told by one of
the women in their office that their crews (13 guys in all) have all
been together at least 6 years.

This guy proposes to use either 3/4" or 1" copper pipe, probably 1" and
he said he already has the pipe. They all encourage me to go ahead and
see what the company would charge for replacing the water main pipe and
then decide if I want this guy to do it instead of the company.

I'm unclear where they are with the wetness under the downstairs
bathroom (their English is pretty fractured) -- they found bamboo roots
thickly around where the galvanized drains meet the clay lateral pipes.

I'm wondering a number of things. Firstly, if this is going to be
outside the law -- IOW, is a permit required to replace the water main
pipe and if so, are they going to comply with the permit process.
Indeed, my contract with the plumbing company to replace my sewer
lateral ("approximately 90 feet") says that their bid doesn't include
permit fees, and I have no information from anyone concerning permits,
if they have pulled them and what the fees are going to be.

I called mid-afternoon and asked to talk to the foreman/bidder and was
told he would call me back probably in a minute or two. He didn't call
me. So, I have nothing to compare bids with... yet, and won't at least
until the crew comes to complete the drainage repairs tomorrow.

I am thinking maybe I should get some more bids, not just this plumbing
company and one of it's foremen working on his own (although they told
me that 2 of the 3 on the crew today would help this guy). I figure I
can say "give me a phone number and I'll call you if I decide to have
you do it." However, I'm kind of worried about the present water leak. I
already have a bunch of sink holes and a seriously depressed section of
driveway out there from the bad drainage system, and possibly also due
to that break in the water main (and maybe other breaks). So, I figure
whatever I do, I should do it quick.

Truly, this is only the second time I have ever dealt with home repair
contractors, and I'm less than confident. I'm almost in my mid-60's, but
am in pretty good shape, so doing my own repair work isn't out of the
question here. However, I don't know how long I can live without running
water!! I guess maybe I should field a number of bids.

Is copper best or should I consider plastic? If copper, L or is K OK?
1"?

Thanks for sage and considered advice!

Dan



Running the new water service would almost certainly require
a permit. And authorization from the utility.

But at this point in the game.........

If you were even able to get the permit, the inspector
would see the recent sewer work and have a fit.

I don't have a good answer for that unless the guys you talked
to can simply go ahead and do it.

Only Type K copper is used where copper is used for service lines.

Be sure to see that electrical bonding jumpers are installed
around the meter and inside the house.

If you do go with plastic, you will have additional grounding
problems to solve. No biggie but must be considered.

Good luck.

Jim

On Thu, 28 Dec 2006 04:51:46 GMT, Speedy Jim wrote:

: Running the new water service would almost certainly require
:a permit. And authorization from the utility.
:
: But at this point in the game.........
:
: If you were even able to get the permit, the inspector
:would see the recent sewer work and have a fit.
:
: I don't have a good answer for that unless the guys you talked
:to can simply go ahead and do it.
:
: Only Type K copper is used where copper is used for service lines.
:
: Be sure to see that electrical bonding jumpers are installed
:around the meter and inside the house.
:
: If you do go with plastic, you will have additional grounding
roblems to solve. No biggie but must be considered.
:
:Good luck.
:
:Jim

Thanks. Well, I don't really know if these guys have gone into a permit
process for my drainage. They are a very old established plumbing and
heating company, and they come recommended, so I just assumed that they
have me covered there. The contract said that their bid did not include
costs of permits. That didn't mean they weren't going to add the cost of
permits. I should have asked them about permits, but didn't. Isn't it
standard for a contractor to do that? I'm going to ask them first thing
in the morning about that. If it was on me to get the permit, they
should have told me so, right? Anyway, it seems to me that at THIS
point it's not too late to have an inspection and be permitted.
Everything is open and visible, they've done no work. The plastic pipe
is out there ready for installation.

I assume you are referring to electrical bonding jumpers in regards to
copper water main installation. Where I am, I don't think they use water
pipes for grounds. However, you may be speaking of them in terms of
preventing electrolysis induced metal decay. So I'll talk to whoever
does the water main replacement about that if they use copper.

My thinking now is to solicit a few bids. Weather is going to be OK the
next week and things are slow here for contractors because it's THAT
time of year. It might help me get some low bids, I'm told by a
contractor friend of mine.

If water pipes aren't used for grounds here I presume that using plastic
isn't problematical from that aspect.

Dan

PS If the inspector has a fit, I think I have a good case for
innosence. It really never occured to me that I'd screwed up there.
Anyway, I'm going to try to make sure I'm OK with that. I'm sure this
plumbing company is fully aware that in my town they now require
certification for the drainage to put a house on the market. Those ducks
have to be in order.

On 2006-12-28, Dan_Musicant wrote:

Thanks. Well, I don't really know if these guys have gone into a
permit process for my drainage. They are a very old established
plumbing and heating company, and they come recommended, so I just
assumed that they have me covered there. The contract said that
their bid did not include costs of permits.

My understanding on permits: the homeowner has the ultimate
responsibility to see that permits are taken out. Now the contractor
has responsibility too, but the homeowner's responsibility is greater.
You should read the contract language to mean "we aren't going to deal
with permits." If you had a permit, you'd know it, since part of the
permit process is positing a copy in your window.

BTW, the Berkeley permit office is closed until Tuesday, January 2nd.

Anyway, it seems to me that at THIS point it's not too late to have
an inspection and be permitted. Everything is open and visible,
they've done no work. The plastic pipe is out there ready for
installation.

Right, from the point of view of pulling a permit, nobody comes to the
site until the first inspection, so if you haven't covered up any work
that needs to be inspected, there's no issue.

I assume you are referring to electrical bonding jumpers in regards
to copper water main installation. Where I am, I don't think they
use water pipes for grounds.

Water service pipes are not relied on as the primary ground, because
the water service can be plastic. But if the water pipes are metal
then they do provide a good ground. So I encourage you to go with a
copper service lateral, it will be the best ground you have until you
replace the foundation and have a Ufer ground.

BTW, I'm surprised at how high the quotes are for replacing the
service lateral are, although I've never bid the work. 60 ft of 1"
Type K soft copper can be had locally for $260 + tax. Beyond that
it's a matter of trenching between the meter and the house shut off
valve, laying the pipe on a bed of sand and making two connections. I
guess the difficult parts would be getting through the foundation and
unrolling the pipe to be nice and straight.

Good luck.

Cheers, Wayne

On Thu, 28 Dec 2006 15:50:43 GMT, Wayne Whitney
wrote:

:On 2006-12-28, Dan_Musicant wrote:
:
: Thanks. Well, I don't really know if these guys have gone into a
: permit process for my drainage. They are a very old established
: plumbing and heating company, and they come recommended, so I just
: assumed that they have me covered there. The contract said that
: their bid did not include costs of permits.
:
:My understanding on permits: the homeowner has the ultimate
:responsibility to see that permits are taken out. Now the contractor
:has responsibility too, but the homeowner's responsibility is greater.
:You should read the contract language to mean "we aren't going to deal
:with permits." If you had a permit, you'd know it, since part of the
ermit process is positing a copy in your window.

Thanks, Wayne. I've been looking for just that information and not found
it. My George Nash book "Renovating Old Houses" has no entry in the
index for "permit" and skimming the book I see no real mention!

When I had my roof replaced a year ago I don't believe there was ANY
indication of a permit until the inspector showed up when it was
virtually done if not actually done. He signed off on it and that was
it. The roofing company had evidently filed for the permit and payed the
fee (I certainly didn't). So, this being my second contract ever I
simply assumed (maybe foolishly!) that it was a similar if not same
circumstance and that the plumbing company was taking care of it. I'm
about to call them and ask them about it. In addition, I'll ask to talk
to the bidder/foreman again about the broken water pipe. A person I
talked to at East Bay MUD this morning told me I can assume these guys
actually broke the pipe! Maybe the company will give me a decent price
to replace it. That's my hope. Meantime, I suppose I should think about
or actually call some other plumbers in the region and get some bids.
EBMUD tells me I have a 5/8" line leading up to my meter at the
sidewalk. There is no shutoff valve after the one that's adjacent to
said meter!

I don't know about that potential problem of running pipe through the
foundation into the house. I presume that in replacing the water main
pipe they can add a shutoff.
:
:BTW, the Berkeley permit office is closed until Tuesday, January 2nd.

That's a potential problem. Yes, everything is open and emminently
inspectable at the moment, but the crew is due back in a matter of
minutes to finish the sewer lateral trenchless installation and it will
all be closed up again including replacing the concrete where they jack
hammered it out yesterday.

:
: Anyway, it seems to me that at THIS point it's not too late to have
: an inspection and be permitted. Everything is open and visible,
: they've done no work. The plastic pipe is out there ready for
: installation.
:
:Right, from the point of view of pulling a permit, nobody comes to the
:site until the first inspection, so if you haven't covered up any work
:that needs to be inspected, there's no issue.

It may not be practical to wait until after Jan. 2 for an inspection.
Maybe the plumbing company wouldn't mind, I don't know. No rain is
expected until almost New Years, but I wouldn't want to bet about after
that. Maybe the prospect of rain isn't serious, I don't know.
:
: I assume you are referring to electrical bonding jumpers in regards
: to copper water main installation. Where I am, I don't think they
: use water pipes for grounds.
:
:Water service pipes are not relied on as the primary ground, because
:the water service can be plastic. But if the water pipes are metal
:then they do provide a good ground. So I encourage you to go with a
:copper service lateral, it will be the best ground you have until you
:replace the foundation and have a Ufer ground.

I had George Walton come over again a couple of weeks ago and he told me
he thought that unless I plan to live here a LONG time, he thinks it's
impractical for me to completely fix up the house. He said he would
charge ~$130,000 for just the foundation and residing work (which I
suppose would include rebuilding the porch). He said it all could add up
to $500,000 and what could I then get for the house? $700,000? By this
reckoning I would have more money in my pocket if I just sold the house
now (more or less)!

I do have a bid from Sept. 2005 to do the siding and foundation for
$64,000, so I'll contemplate that, but even so I think George's
imprecations are probably sensible.
:
:BTW, I'm surprised at how high the quotes are for replacing the
:service lateral are, although I've never bid the work. 60 ft of 1"
:Type K soft copper can be had locally for $260 + tax. Beyond that
:it's a matter of trenching between the meter and the house shut off
:valve, laying the pipe on a bed of sand and making two connections. I
:guess the difficult parts would be getting through the foundation and
:unrolling the pipe to be nice and straight.

I figured about the same for the cost of the copper piping. I'm afraid
to use these fly-by-night plumbers by virtue of licensing, insurance and
bonding issues. And, I assume I can't get references from them. I'd only
be relying on their assurances. Those assurances sound reasonable, but
if there are any difficulties they won't count for anything.

:Good luck.

Thanks!

:Cheers, Wayne
:

Thanks and HNY!

On Thu, 28 Dec 2006 15:50:43 GMT, Wayne Whitney
wrote:

:BTW, the Berkeley permit office is closed until Tuesday, January 2nd.

I just called the bidder/foreman of the plumbing company and he said
they did pull the permit. That's a relief.

So, Berkeley's inspector will come after they are done with the work and
inspect. Funny, because at that point what the devil will the man see?

Anyway, he acknowledges that they MAY have broken it. Well, he didn't
deny it when I said that... instead he said that they may have worsened
an already existing leak. I'd conceded that the existing water main was
undoubtedly in a quite fragile state. He said they are sending over one
of their plumbers today to check out the situation and I will get a bid
then to replace the water main line. The current one runs under one of
the driveway slabs, so I think the replacement line would be just
outside that slab and therefore 1' closer to the house itself. That
seemed to be the thinking of the workers yesterday. Hopefully, that's
acceptable in terms of code requirements. I'll ask the guy this morning.

If they quote me anything over $2000 (or even $1500) I'll have to at
least consider getting competing bids.

Dan

On 2006-12-28, Dan_Musicant wrote:

Anyway, he acknowledges that they MAY have broken it. Well, he didn't
deny it when I said that... instead he said that they may have worsened
an already existing leak. I'd conceded that the existing water main was
undoubtedly in a quite fragile state.

Tell them that replacing the service lateral with 1" copper K is about
a $1000 job, and that since they are at least partially responsible
you'd like them to do the job for half that, $500. If they squawk,
offer to add a $100 for installing a house shut off where the new
service connects to the existing house plumbing. If the house
plumbing is galvanized, make sure a 6" long brass nipple is used to
connect the new copper to the old galvanized.

Cheers, Wayne

my 60 ft water line to the main was one inch copper for $5,000. and
worth every penny. i should have let them pave the 2 included concrete
in the driveway, my wife grumbles regularly. i thought i would let
things settle and pave the driveway a year later. oops.
i didn't consider replacing the old sewer line because of the rocky
layout.
have company #1 owner and your town inspector agree with you on all
your work. even with a written contract the homeowner pays for the
permits.
[or else what would your recourse be if the water line freezes next
year?]
your wetness and old broken water line are both your problems, fix
them.
then read up on building science at:
http://www.buildingscience.com/resources/homeowner.htm

Dan_Musicant wrote:
I got 3 bids for replacing my old broken clay 4" (?) drainage lateral,
and I went with the first bid. They did the snake camera thing and
didn't charge me and their bid was much lower than the other two ($4,200
vs. over $6000 for the other two).

Today, they arrived to do the work. They said they'd do the trenchless
replacement tomorrow and dug the holes today (7 holes in all, I
believe). They had to use a jackhammer in several places to remove
concrete.

They roused me from inside the house several times for one reason or
another, but one time it was to show me that the old galvanized water
main pipe had a major leak (it was spraying water pretty fast). They
said (I think!) that it was 1/2" pipe! They said I must have had
elevated water bills and I said my water usage had actually been very
small (less than $5/month before all the water treatment and sewage
charges, etc. etc.). They then said it had been a slow leak but the
disturbance they'd made had increased it. They told one of the guys to
run and shut off the main.

I'd presumed that the guy who'd worked up my bid when he came around
later in the day would discuss fixing this or replacing it, since it's a
pretty major thing, but he didn't mention it. Still, I assumed he had
some ideas concerning this, and I'd hear about it later. I had other
fish to fry with him because I have an upstairs tub drain that's clogged
(all my efforts and those of another guy have failed), and there's the
matter of wetness under my downstairs bathroom. He said since I was
doing a $4000 job with them, he'd send a guy out for free who would try
to snake out the tub drain. If that didn't work, there would be charges
to do whatever is necessary if I agreed to the work. That might (worst
case) involve replacing the tub drain, which goes through the walls of
the first and second story (rather involved!).

The wetness under the downstairs bathroom he said they'd know more about
later in the day.

So, the bidder/foreman leaves and his workers put a temporary clamp on
the pipe that slows the leak to the point where they can turn on the
water main again. Then one guy takes me aside (a latino guy) and tells
me he can replace the water main pipe in his spare time ("Saturday") and
will charge me a good price - $3000. He says to sound out the foreman
what he would charge and not tell him about our side thing and then
decide if I want him to do it. A little later he rouses me and says he
has a friend who will do it cheaper - $2000 or $1800 depending on the
length of the pipe, evidently. They tell me it's around 80 to 90 feet.
The house is almost 100 years old and the meter is at the sidewalk and
the only shutoff is right at the meter. He has me talk right to his
latino "friend" on his cell phone. They inform me afterward that this
guy is one of their foremen and quite experienced. I was told by one of
the women in their office that their crews (13 guys in all) have all
been together at least 6 years.

This guy proposes to use either 3/4" or 1" copper pipe, probably 1" and
he said he already has the pipe. They all encourage me to go ahead and
see what the company would charge for replacing the water main pipe and
then decide if I want this guy to do it instead of the company.

I'm unclear where they are with the wetness under the downstairs
bathroom (their English is pretty fractured) -- they found bamboo roots
thickly around where the galvanized drains meet the clay lateral pipes.

I'm wondering a number of things. Firstly, if this is going to be
outside the law -- IOW, is a permit required to replace the water main
pipe and if so, are they going to comply with the permit process.
Indeed, my contract with the plumbing company to replace my sewer
lateral ("approximately 90 feet") says that their bid doesn't include
permit fees, and I have no information from anyone concerning permits,
if they have pulled them and what the fees are going to be.

I called mid-afternoon and asked to talk to the foreman/bidder and was
told he would call me back probably in a minute or two. He didn't call
me. So, I have nothing to compare bids with... yet, and won't at least
until the crew comes to complete the drainage repairs tomorrow.

I am thinking maybe I should get some more bids, not just this plumbing
company and one of it's foremen working on his own (although they told
me that 2 of the 3 on the crew today would help this guy). I figure I
can say "give me a phone number and I'll call you if I decide to have
you do it." However, I'm kind of worried about the present water leak. I
already have a bunch of sink holes and a seriously depressed section of
driveway out there from the bad drainage system, and possibly also due
to that break in the water main (and maybe other breaks). So, I figure
whatever I do, I should do it quick.

Truly, this is only the second time I have ever dealt with home repair
contractors, and I'm less than confident. I'm almost in my mid-60's, but
am in pretty good shape, so doing my own repair work isn't out of the
question here. However, I don't know how long I can live without running
water!! I guess maybe I should field a number of bids.

Is copper best or should I consider plastic? If copper, L or is K OK?
1"?

Thanks for sage and considered advice!

Dan

On 28 Dec 2006 00:50:22 -0800, "buffalobill"
wrote:

:my 60 ft water line to the main was one inch copper for $5,000. and
:worth every penny. i should have let them pave the 2 included concrete
:in the driveway, my wife grumbles regularly. i thought i would let
:things settle and pave the driveway a year later. oops.
:i didn't consider replacing the old sewer line because of the rocky
:layout.
:have company #1 owner and your town inspector agree with you on all
:your work. even with a written contract the homeowner pays for the
ermits.
:[or else what would your recourse be if the water line freezes next
:year?]
:your wetness and old broken water line are both your problems, fix
:them.
:then read up on building science at:
:http://www.buildingscience.com/resources/homeowner.htm

Thanks. Where I live (Berkeley, CA) it's really a practical
impossibility for my water main to freeze. On the rarest occasions an
exposed water line might freeze. In 1990 we had a low of 27 degrees
overnight, and that was the coldest it's been in probably well over 30
years.

Thanks for the comments. I'll check out that site. I've been there
before but only looked over foundation issues.

Dan

I've made a deal to have my water main pipe replaced and the guy said
he'd do either 3/4" or 1" copper, and pretty much left it up to me. He
said he'd test the water pressure and if it was over 65 lb. he'd install
3/4", otherwise 1". But he said he'd do 1" in any case if I request it.

The run appears to be around 60' from the meter out front to the point
in the house where the water currently enters. Interior piping is all
1/2" galvanized, and most of it pretty old (1914-ish house), and pretty
corroded inside, although pressure seems good when no other water is
being used. Typically, if you're taking a shower you better hope noone
flushes a toilet!

The utility company tells me that the meter out front is fed by a 5/8"
line from the main street-water-supply.

I have two bathrooms.

Should I ask for 1" copper for the water main line (presumably L, since
it will run underground) or is this really overkill? TIA.

Dan

Should I ask for 1" copper for the water main line (presumably L, since
it will run underground) or is this really overkill? TIA.

Never be afraid to overkill, better to have it and not need it than
vice versa.

1"

--
Steve Barker



"Dan_Musicant" wrote in message
...
I've made a deal to have my water main pipe replaced and the guy said
he'd do either 3/4" or 1" copper, and pretty much left it up to me. He
said he'd test the water pressure and if it was over 65 lb. he'd install
3/4", otherwise 1". But he said he'd do 1" in any case if I request it.

The run appears to be around 60' from the meter out front to the point
in the house where the water currently enters. Interior piping is all
1/2" galvanized, and most of it pretty old (1914-ish house), and pretty
corroded inside, although pressure seems good when no other water is
being used. Typically, if you're taking a shower you better hope noone
flushes a toilet!

The utility company tells me that the meter out front is fed by a 5/8"
line from the main street-water-supply.

I have two bathrooms.

Should I ask for 1" copper for the water main line (presumably L, since
it will run underground) or is this really overkill? TIA.

Dan

Steve Barker LT wrote:
1"

--
Steve Barker YEP ONE INCH!

??

--
Steve Barker


wrote in message
ps.com...

Steve Barker LT wrote:
1"

--
Steve Barker YEP ONE INCH!

Unless it is a really smal house with no yard, then 1" is your
friend.



On Fri, 29 Dec 2006 04:29:34 GMT, Dan_Musicant
wrote:

I've made a deal to have my water main pipe replaced and the guy said
he'd do either 3/4" or 1" copper, and pretty much left it up to me. He
said he'd test the water pressure and if it was over 65 lb. he'd install
3/4", otherwise 1". But he said he'd do 1" in any case if I request it.

The run appears to be around 60' from the meter out front to the point
in the house where the water currently enters. Interior piping is all
1/2" galvanized, and most of it pretty old (1914-ish house), and pretty
corroded inside, although pressure seems good when no other water is
being used. Typically, if you're taking a shower you better hope noone
flushes a toilet!

The utility company tells me that the meter out front is fed by a 5/8"
line from the main street-water-supply.

I have two bathrooms.

Should I ask for 1" copper for the water main line (presumably L, since
it will run underground) or is this really overkill? TIA.

Dan

It's unanimous. 1" it will be. Thanks!

Dan_Musicant wrote:
I've made a deal to have my water main pipe replaced and the guy said
he'd do either 3/4" or 1" copper, and pretty much left it up to me. He
said he'd test the water pressure and if it was over 65 lb. he'd install
3/4", otherwise 1". But he said he'd do 1" in any case if I request it.

The run appears to be around 60' from the meter out front to the point
in the house where the water currently enters. Interior piping is all
1/2" galvanized, and most of it pretty old (1914-ish house), and pretty
corroded inside, although pressure seems good when no other water is
being used. Typically, if you're taking a shower you better hope noone
flushes a toilet!

The utility company tells me that the meter out front is fed by a 5/8"
line from the main street-water-supply.

I have two bathrooms.

Should I ask for 1" copper for the water main line (presumably L, since
it will run underground) or is this really overkill? TIA.

Dan


Dan-

I had a main line repipe done about 25 years ago in a very similar
situation.... 3/4" galv from 1930

I had it replaced with 1" copper, I've got a 3/4" meter & about 50'
from street to house

water flow & pressure is great..can run the lawn sprinklers AND take a
shower (or use a single fixture in the house) since the house is only
partially re-piped I still have flow problems internal to the house.

Go with 1", you'll be happier & you'll never reason have to question
your choice

btw I had to talk my neighbor out of using 1.25" for his main line

cheers
Bob

btw I had to talk my neighbor out of using 1.25" for his main line

cheers
Bob

Why? 3" would be ok if cost was no object. While it will still only
flow to the limit of the smallest restriction, the volume of water
"stored" in the big pipe would still help.

Eric in North TX wrote:
btw I had to talk my neighbor out of using 1.25" for his main line

cheers
Bob

Why? 3" would be ok if cost was no object. While it will still only
flow to the limit of the smallest restriction, the volume of water
"stored" in the big pipe would still help.


Well cost is nearly always a factor. Plus my neighbor & I help each
other out on projects & although we tend towards overkill we balance
each other out. & hopefully minimize our desire for "wasted" overkill.

For a 75' x 150' lot & a 1" meter ....a 1" line is right
size.....1.25" is unnecessary as is 3".

IMHO a bigger line won't buy very much (almost none) improvement in
performance.......water is not very compressible & the concept of water
"stored" requires some sort of accumulator (LARGE flexible lines, or a
piston or bladder style accumulator) just adding large metal lin won't
do much.

Incompressibles (water, hydraulic fluid, etc) need to be delivered on a
real time basis;

instantaneous supply must equal instantaneous

or a system accumulator must be present. to supply instantaneous peak
(short term) demands & buffer instantaneous peak supply (the cause of
water hammer)

So a large line isn't going to "store" much if any extra water but it
will have less head loss that a smaller line.

another mis-conception about water flow / hydraulics is

"....... it will still only flow to the limit of the smallest
restriction......"

that is not entirely true....hydraulic supplies suffer head loss
through the lines, fittings, valves, & other restrictions...the cool
thing about analyzing the system is that the "head loss" (pressure
loss) due to each item can be expressed in equivalent length of
straight pipe

so a valve (depending on style) might add a between 1' & 10' of
"extra" pipe length....an elbow maybe 4'.

Yeah putting a 1" valve in a 3" line is REALLY gonna add some large
loss (a rather unrealistic example) but the system will still preform
better than a completely plumbed 3/4" system

Well......we might get enough losses in the transition from 1" up to 3"
& back to 1" overwhelm the postive effect of the 3" . Plus analyzing
a mixed size system (by hand) gets to be a real PITA.

In any case the way a complete hydraulic system performs is a function
of layout, pipe sizes & fittings...combined with the demand...ie flow
velocities, since head loss is a dependent on flow velocity.

Sorry about the long winded post...I guess I got overcome by Nick's
evil influence.........

cheers
Bob

OI missed the first part of this thread, but if this is just an
average home, 3/4" in the norm, from the meter into the house. One
inch is common from the water main (in the street) into the home and
up tp the meter.


On 5 Jan 2007 10:16:25 -0800, "Eric in North TX"
wrote:

btw I had to talk my neighbor out of using 1.25" for his main line

cheers
Bob

Why? 3" would be ok if cost was no object. While it will still only
flow to the limit of the smallest restriction, the volume of water
"stored" in the big pipe would still help.

On Sat, 06 Jan 2007 03:17:41 -0600, wrote:

:OI missed the first part of this thread, but if this is just an
:average home, 3/4" in the norm, from the meter into the house. One
:inch is common from the water main (in the street) into the home and
:up tp the meter.

Average house = ? Maybe min'e pretty average (I'm the OP). The house is
1925 square feet, with 2 baths, a laundry room and average sized yard.
I'm sure 3/4" is fine for me, but whoever moves in after me, who knows?
Maybe 3/4" from meter to house plumbing is perfectly adequate. In terms
of flow, I suppose it is. I figure the interior cross section is 2.25
times that of 1/2" pipe, and on top of that the previous 1/2" pipe is
undoubtely quite corroded on the interior. Yes, some of that will have
sloughed off but I'm guessing that the resistance to flow is greater
than for new galvanized 1/2" pipe.

I figure probably the best argument for 1" would be that the water flow
would be slower and thus the noise of the water flow would be reduced
over 3/4". So I'm told. To me, it's theoretical at this point, but I'm
still in a position to ask for 1" over 3/4". The work isn't to begin
until at least tomorrow.

Dan

:On 5 Jan 2007 10:16:25 -0800, "Eric in North TX"
:wrote:
:
: btw I had to talk my neighbor out of using 1.25" for his main line
:
: cheers
: Bob
:
:Why? 3" would be ok if cost was no object. While it will still only
:flow to the limit of the smallest restriction, the volume of water
:"stored" in the big pipe would still help.

After the 3/4" water main was installed I am finding that my water
pressure is very much improved. I don't notice it so much when using a
tap or whatever. What I'm noticing is when I use more than one thing.
For instance, I can flush the toilet and not have my shower lose 2/3 of
its flow! It's a major improvement. The interior piping is still very
old 1/2" galvanized almost entirely, but it appears that the old 1/2"
galvanized water main was severely corroded, both on the interior and
exterior. Well, whether it was interior or exterior, combined they were
enough to make the pipe so fragile as to break in the first place,
leading to the necessary replacement.

Dan

Dan_Musicant wrote:
After the 3/4" water main was installed I am finding that my water
pressure is very much improved. I don't notice it so much when using a
tap or whatever. What I'm noticing is when I use more than one thing.
For instance, I can flush the toilet and not have my shower lose 2/3 of
its flow! It's a major improvement. The interior piping is still very
old 1/2" galvanized almost entirely, but it appears that the old 1/2"
galvanized water main was severely corroded, both on the interior and
exterior. Well, whether it was interior or exterior, combined they were
enough to make the pipe so fragile as to break in the first place,
leading to the necessary replacement.

Dan

time to replace the remainder before it leaks and does damage

the improved pressure and flow may lead to other faster failures

On 16 Jan 2007 16:47:03 -0800, "
wrote:

:
an_Musicant wrote:
: After the 3/4" water main was installed I am finding that my water
: pressure is very much improved. I don't notice it so much when using a
: tap or whatever. What I'm noticing is when I use more than one thing.
: For instance, I can flush the toilet and not have my shower lose 2/3 of
: its flow! It's a major improvement. The interior piping is still very
: old 1/2" galvanized almost entirely, but it appears that the old 1/2"
: galvanized water main was severely corroded, both on the interior and
: exterior. Well, whether it was interior or exterior, combined they were
: enough to make the pipe so fragile as to break in the first place,
: leading to the necessary replacement.
:
: Dan
:
:time to replace the remainder before it leaks and does damage
:
:the improved pressure and flow may lead to other faster failures

Thanks! At the very least, I'll be keeping an eye on it. I can and
should have a look at the meter occasionally to see if the dial is
moving when it is not supposed to. That would be the easiest and only
foolproof method of determining if there's a leak, seems to me.

Dan

Dan_Musicant wrote:
After the 3/4" water main was installed I am finding that my water
pressure is very much improved. I don't notice it so much when using a
tap or whatever. What I'm noticing is when I use more than one thing.
For instance, I can flush the toilet and not have my shower lose 2/3 of
its flow! It's a major improvement. The interior piping is still very
old 1/2" galvanized almost entirely, but it appears that the old 1/2"
galvanized water main was severely corroded, both on the interior and
exterior. Well, whether it was interior or exterior, combined they were
enough to make the pipe so fragile as to break in the first place,
leading to the necessary replacement.

Dan


Dan-

Here is a link to a pressure drop table for copper tubing as long as
the flows through your mainline are reasonable 10 gpm....your pressure
drop will be small

I had my mainline replace ~25 years ago & my pressure / flow to the
house is great. I can run the yard sprinklers & not notice any loss in
the house.

But when I run a second item IN the house it will steal flow /
pressure from the original use.

That's because the supply line in the house is 1930 glav steel 3/4 to
the water heater & 1/2 from there on.

The 1/2" I've removed has been so rusted / built up inside that it is
impossible to see through a 1' length.

As long as the supply to a branching point can supply the total demand
AT that branching point with small pressure drop.......demand beyond
that will not be effected by additional demand.

That's why a properly supplied "home run" manifold system will not
suffer pressure loss at the remote points.

cheers
Bob

I just discovered (after 15 years) that I've been paying
a premium to the water district for the privilege of
having a 1" water meter (about $15/month more than a
3/4" meter). I don't know of any good reason for needing
the larger meter since we don't use water for anything
unusual. Would it be worth the trouble to make the
change to the meter size?

[It's no problem getting to the meter since our lines are
so shallow (about 6" below ground).]

"Everett M. Greene" wrote in message
...
Would it be worth the trouble to make the
change to the meter size?


It will save you $80 a year, and if you have 3/4" lines, the larger meter
does no good.

Everett M. Greene wrote:
I just discovered (after 15 years) that I've been paying
a premium to the water district for the privilege of
having a 1" water meter (about $15/month more than a
3/4" meter). I don't know of any good reason for needing
the larger meter since we don't use water for anything
unusual. Would it be worth the trouble to make the
change to the meter size?

[It's no problem getting to the meter since our lines are
so shallow (about 6" below ground).]

You need to find out what a change would involve.
It may not be just the size of the meter that
needs to be changed.

On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 12:23:01 PST, main (Everett M.
Greene) wrote:

I just discovered (after 15 years) that I've been paying
a premium to the water district for the privilege of
having a 1" water meter (about $15/month more than a
3/4" meter). I don't know of any good reason for needing
the larger meter since we don't use water for anything
unusual. Would it be worth the trouble to make the
change to the meter size?

[It's no problem getting to the meter since our lines are
so shallow (about 6" below ground).]

They will charge you a bloody fortune to change it, so keep your trap
shut.

On 16 Jan 2007 20:39:15 -0800, "BobK207" wrote:

:
an_Musicant wrote:
: After the 3/4" water main was installed I am finding that my water
: pressure is very much improved. I don't notice it so much when using a
: tap or whatever. What I'm noticing is when I use more than one thing.
: For instance, I can flush the toilet and not have my shower lose 2/3 of
: its flow! It's a major improvement. The interior piping is still very
: old 1/2" galvanized almost entirely, but it appears that the old 1/2"
: galvanized water main was severely corroded, both on the interior and
: exterior. Well, whether it was interior or exterior, combined they were
: enough to make the pipe so fragile as to break in the first place,
: leading to the necessary replacement.
:
: Dan
:
:
an-
:
:Here is a link to a pressure drop table for copper tubing as long as
:the flows through your mainline are reasonable 10 gpm....your pressure
:drop will be small
:
:I had my mainline replace ~25 years ago & my pressure / flow to the
:house is great. I can run the yard sprinklers & not notice any loss in
:the house.
:
:But when I run a second item IN the house it will steal flow /
ressure from the original use.
:
:That's because the supply line in the house is 1930 glav steel 3/4 to
:the water heater & 1/2 from there on.
:
:The 1/2" I've removed has been so rusted / built up inside that it is
:impossible to see through a 1' length.
:
:As long as the supply to a branching point can supply the total demand
:AT that branching point with small pressure drop.......demand beyond
:that will not be effected by additional demand.
:
:That's why a properly supplied "home run" manifold system will not
:suffer pressure loss at the remote points.
:
:cheers
:Bob

Thanks Bob. I'm rubbing my chin on that one and trying to understand it.
You forgot the link!

Dan

Dan_Musicant wrote:
On 16 Jan 2007 20:39:15 -0800, "BobK207" wrote:

:
an_Musicant wrote:
: After the 3/4" water main was installed I am finding that my water
: pressure is very much improved. I don't notice it so much when using a
: tap or whatever. What I'm noticing is when I use more than one thing.
: For instance, I can flush the toilet and not have my shower lose 2/3 of
: its flow! It's a major improvement. The interior piping is still very
: old 1/2" galvanized almost entirely, but it appears that the old 1/2"
: galvanized water main was severely corroded, both on the interior and
: exterior. Well, whether it was interior or exterior, combined they were
: enough to make the pipe so fragile as to break in the first place,
: leading to the necessary replacement.
:
: Dan
:
:
an-
:
:Here is a link to a pressure drop table for copper tubing as long as
:the flows through your mainline are reasonable 10 gpm....your pressure
:drop will be small
:
:I had my mainline replace ~25 years ago & my pressure / flow to the
:house is great. I can run the yard sprinklers & not notice any loss in
:the house.
:
:But when I run a second item IN the house it will steal flow /
ressure from the original use.
:
:That's because the supply line in the house is 1930 glav steel 3/4 to
:the water heater & 1/2 from there on.
:
:The 1/2" I've removed has been so rusted / built up inside that it is
:impossible to see through a 1' length.
:
:As long as the supply to a branching point can supply the total demand
:AT that branching point with small pressure drop.......demand beyond
:that will not be effected by additional demand.
:
:That's why a properly supplied "home run" manifold system will not
:suffer pressure loss at the remote points.
:
:cheers
:Bob

Thanks Bob. I'm rubbing my chin on that one and trying to understand it.
You forgot the link!

Dan

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/pr...pes-d_930.html