My water system is losing pressure causing the pump to come on every 3
minutes for about 10 seconds. The leak is somewhere outside the house.

The most likely cause would be a leak in the 40 year old galvanized pipe
they used to bring the water to the house. (I had a previous leak this
spring of that cause).

I am out of cash for such a major repair at this time and would like to
postpone it till spring (bonus time). So my question would be: Would could I
expect to happen if I installed a check valve inside the house? I am mainly
interested in reducing the short cycling on the pump. What other failures
can cause this problem? If there were a pin hole leak in the pipe, would I
see it at the surface? Would I be open to contamination?

I expect the fix to be a complete repiping with plastic. I also assume that
at some point they would have to pull the pump up to make the attachment.
Would it be advisable to replace the pump at that time (40 years old)?

I guess water is not free. You pay for it one way or another.
The joys of home ownership......

jmagerl wrote:
My water system is losing pressure causing the pump to come on every 3
minutes for about 10 seconds. The leak is somewhere outside the house.

The most likely cause would be a leak in the 40 year old galvanized pipe
they used to bring the water to the house. (I had a previous leak this
spring of that cause).

I am out of cash for such a major repair at this time and would like to
postpone it till spring (bonus time). So my question would be: Would could I
expect to happen if I installed a check valve inside the house? I am mainly
interested in reducing the short cycling on the pump. What other failures
can cause this problem? If there were a pin hole leak in the pipe, would I
see it at the surface? Would I be open to contamination?

I expect the fix to be a complete repiping with plastic. I also assume that
at some point they would have to pull the pump up to make the attachment.
Would it be advisable to replace the pump at that time (40 years old)?

I guess water is not free. You pay for it one way or another.
The joys of home ownership......

I assume you know your pressure tank is not low or broken. You're
risking the life of your pump if you let the problem go on.

Frank

Had the same prob when I lived in upstate, NY. Ended up being the
pressure tank......filled halfway with sand from the well.

jmagerl wrote:
My water system is losing pressure causing the pump to come on every 3
minutes for about 10 seconds. The leak is somewhere outside the house.

The most likely cause would be a leak in the 40 year old galvanized pipe
they used to bring the water to the house. (I had a previous leak this
spring of that cause).

I am out of cash for such a major repair at this time and would like to
postpone it till spring (bonus time). So my question would be: Would could I
expect to happen if I installed a check valve inside the house? I am mainly
interested in reducing the short cycling on the pump. What other failures
can cause this problem? If there were a pin hole leak in the pipe, would I
see it at the surface? Would I be open to contamination?

I expect the fix to be a complete repiping with plastic. I also assume that
at some point they would have to pull the pump up to make the attachment.
Would it be advisable to replace the pump at that time (40 years old)?

I guess water is not free. You pay for it one way or another.
The joys of home ownership......

The short cycling is not due to the leak- the on/off setpoints are too
close, or the tank has too little air in it (if its a bladder type
tank, the bladder could be shot).

Sneaky leaks often occur in the toilets- either the float controlled
fill valve doesn't shut off all the way, or it dribbles water from the
tank to the bowl.

If its the fill valve, the water will be up to the top of the overflow
tube in the tank. You'll never hear this leak.
If its the tank-bowl valve leaking, every once in awhile that toilet
will 'run'.

Dave

jmagerl wrote:
My water system is losing pressure causing the pump to come on every 3
minutes for about 10 seconds. The leak is somewhere outside the house.

The most likely cause would be a leak in the 40 year old galvanized pipe
they used to bring the water to the house. (I had a previous leak this
spring of that cause).

I am out of cash for such a major repair at this time and would like to
postpone it till spring (bonus time). So my question would be: Would could I
expect to happen if I installed a check valve inside the house? I am mainly
interested in reducing the short cycling on the pump. What other failures
can cause this problem? If there were a pin hole leak in the pipe, would I
see it at the surface? Would I be open to contamination?

Actually, as I think someone else pointed out, I think the more
probable cause of this type of cycling is the pressure tank. Either it
is waterlogged or low on air pressure, or both (the latter causing the
former). If it doesn't have a major leak in the bladder or diaphragm
(which depending on the type, of course) you might be able to prolong
its life somewhat by draining it as competely as possible and then
resetting the air pressure properly (it should be at 2 lb below the
setpoint when empty). This may at least extend the time before you
absolutely have to do something (then again, it may not, but it's
definitely worth a shot).

If it were from a leak, I think you would have chance to find it from
the leak unless the pipe is really deeply buried or you have very wet
climate anyway so a wet spot isn't easily noticed.

I don't see the check valve solving anything.

I expect the fix to be a complete repiping with plastic. I also assume that
at some point they would have to pull the pump up to make the attachment.
Would it be advisable to replace the pump at that time (40 years old)?

I guess water is not free. You pay for it one way or another.

If it is indeed submersible pump and the line down the well is also
galvanized, then yes, to replace it will require pulling the pump.
Whether it needs replacing can be told by the well service folks from a
test on the pump and motor. At that age, its likely to have enough
wear that you could indeed, possibly forestall another need to pull the
well for quite a while by going ahead, but I'd evaluate it at the time.
Of course, that also is partly dependent on how deep a well and how
big the pump is.

I also agree that letting it go as is will be more expensive than
fixing it now and will likely lead to a complete failure that will
result in emergency repair rather than elective which may cost even
more (assuming you don't have a practical alternate water supply other
than buying water for all your needs or finding another place to live
temporarily).

I suspect a leak because I have a valve in between the pump and the pressure
tank. Closing the valve to disconnect the pump, makes the pressure hold
steady. When I open the valve, the pressure starts to fall.

The tank has no bladder and was last checked in the spring for pressure. But
just to be sure I will drain it and recharge it. Its on the list for
replacement because it really is a pain to have to baby it all the time.


"dpb" wrote in message
ups.com...

jmagerl wrote:
My water system is losing pressure causing the pump to come on every 3
minutes for about 10 seconds. The leak is somewhere outside the house.

The most likely cause would be a leak in the 40 year old galvanized pipe
they used to bring the water to the house. (I had a previous leak this
spring of that cause).

I am out of cash for such a major repair at this time and would like to
postpone it till spring (bonus time). So my question would be: Would
could I
expect to happen if I installed a check valve inside the house? I am
mainly
interested in reducing the short cycling on the pump. What other failures
can cause this problem? If there were a pin hole leak in the pipe, would
I
see it at the surface? Would I be open to contamination?

Actually, as I think someone else pointed out, I think the more
probable cause of this type of cycling is the pressure tank. Either it
is waterlogged or low on air pressure, or both (the latter causing the
former). If it doesn't have a major leak in the bladder or diaphragm
(which depending on the type, of course) you might be able to prolong
its life somewhat by draining it as competely as possible and then
resetting the air pressure properly (it should be at 2 lb below the
setpoint when empty). This may at least extend the time before you
absolutely have to do something (then again, it may not, but it's
definitely worth a shot).

If it were from a leak, I think you would have chance to find it from
the leak unless the pipe is really deeply buried or you have very wet
climate anyway so a wet spot isn't easily noticed.

I don't see the check valve solving anything.

I expect the fix to be a complete repiping with plastic. I also assume
that
at some point they would have to pull the pump up to make the attachment.
Would it be advisable to replace the pump at that time (40 years old)?

I guess water is not free. You pay for it one way or another.

If it is indeed submersible pump and the line down the well is also
galvanized, then yes, to replace it will require pulling the pump.
Whether it needs replacing can be told by the well service folks from a
test on the pump and motor. At that age, its likely to have enough
wear that you could indeed, possibly forestall another need to pull the
well for quite a while by going ahead, but I'd evaluate it at the time.
Of course, that also is partly dependent on how deep a well and how
big the pump is.

I also agree that letting it go as is will be more expensive than
fixing it now and will likely lead to a complete failure that will
result in emergency repair rather than elective which may cost even
more (assuming you don't have a practical alternate water supply other
than buying water for all your needs or finding another place to live
temporarily).

Are you sure it isn't the check valve built into the pump that isn't letting
water drain back down the line? You proved it is from the valve to the pump
but haven't proven it is a leak yet. Also could be a broken pipe down to the
pump that would cause the same thing as the pump check valve being out of
service too and not show up as a leak as it is just putting water back down
the well casing.

Rich



jmagerl wrote:
I suspect a leak because I have a valve in between the pump and the
pressure tank. Closing the valve to disconnect the pump, makes the
pressure hold steady. When I open the valve, the pressure starts to
fall.
The tank has no bladder and was last checked in the spring for
pressure. But just to be sure I will drain it and recharge it. Its on
the list for replacement because it really is a pain to have to baby
it all the time.

"dpb" wrote in message
ups.com...

jmagerl wrote:
My water system is losing pressure causing the pump to come on
every 3 minutes for about 10 seconds. The leak is somewhere
outside the house. The most likely cause would be a leak in the 40 year
old galvanized
pipe they used to bring the water to the house. (I had a previous
leak this spring of that cause).

I am out of cash for such a major repair at this time and would
like to postpone it till spring (bonus time). So my question would
be: Would could I
expect to happen if I installed a check valve inside the house? I am
mainly
interested in reducing the short cycling on the pump. What other
failures can cause this problem? If there were a pin hole leak in
the pipe, would I
see it at the surface? Would I be open to contamination?

Actually, as I think someone else pointed out, I think the more
probable cause of this type of cycling is the pressure tank. Either
it is waterlogged or low on air pressure, or both (the latter
causing the former). If it doesn't have a major leak in the bladder
or diaphragm (which depending on the type, of course) you might be
able to prolong its life somewhat by draining it as competely as
possible and then resetting the air pressure properly (it should be
at 2 lb below the setpoint when empty). This may at least extend
the time before you absolutely have to do something (then again, it
may not, but it's definitely worth a shot).

If it were from a leak, I think you would have chance to find it from
the leak unless the pipe is really deeply buried or you have very wet
climate anyway so a wet spot isn't easily noticed.

I don't see the check valve solving anything.

I expect the fix to be a complete repiping with plastic. I also
assume that
at some point they would have to pull the pump up to make the
attachment. Would it be advisable to replace the pump at that time
(40 years old)? I guess water is not free. You pay for it one way or
another.

If it is indeed submersible pump and the line down the well is also
galvanized, then yes, to replace it will require pulling the pump.
Whether it needs replacing can be told by the well service folks
from a test on the pump and motor. At that age, its likely to have
enough wear that you could indeed, possibly forestall another need
to pull the well for quite a while by going ahead, but I'd evaluate
it at the time. Of course, that also is partly dependent on how deep
a well and how big the pump is.

I also agree that letting it go as is will be more expensive than
fixing it now and will likely lead to a complete failure that will
result in emergency repair rather than elective which may cost even
more (assuming you don't have a practical alternate water supply
other than buying water for all your needs or finding another place
to live temporarily).

No I'm not sure at all. I doesn't seem to be pumping air but I havent really
let the system run down. I'm thinking that if the leak were above the water
level in the well (and in the external pipe), at some point all the water
would drain into the well and I would have air in the pipe. if that
happened, the next time the pumpgoes on, I would get air. That doesnt seem
to be happening. So I either have a leak below the water level in the well
or I havent let the system get that low. Tonight, I close the valve that
shuts the well off and let it sit to see if I suck air.


"Rich" wrote in message
g.com...
Are you sure it isn't the check valve built into the pump that isn't
letting water drain back down the line? You proved it is from the valve to
the pump but haven't proven it is a leak yet. Also could be a broken pipe
down to the pump that would cause the same thing as the pump check valve
being out of service too and not show up as a leak as it is just putting
water back down the well casing.

Rich



jmagerl wrote:
I suspect a leak because I have a valve in between the pump and the
pressure tank. Closing the valve to disconnect the pump, makes the
pressure hold steady. When I open the valve, the pressure starts to
fall.
The tank has no bladder and was last checked in the spring for
pressure. But just to be sure I will drain it and recharge it. Its on
the list for replacement because it really is a pain to have to baby
it all the time.

"dpb" wrote in message
ups.com...

jmagerl wrote:
My water system is losing pressure causing the pump to come on
every 3 minutes for about 10 seconds. The leak is somewhere
outside the house. The most likely cause would be a leak in the 40 year
old galvanized
pipe they used to bring the water to the house. (I had a previous
leak this spring of that cause).

I am out of cash for such a major repair at this time and would
like to postpone it till spring (bonus time). So my question would
be: Would could I
expect to happen if I installed a check valve inside the house? I am
mainly
interested in reducing the short cycling on the pump. What other
failures can cause this problem? If there were a pin hole leak in
the pipe, would I
see it at the surface? Would I be open to contamination?

Actually, as I think someone else pointed out, I think the more
probable cause of this type of cycling is the pressure tank. Either
it is waterlogged or low on air pressure, or both (the latter
causing the former). If it doesn't have a major leak in the bladder
or diaphragm (which depending on the type, of course) you might be
able to prolong its life somewhat by draining it as competely as
possible and then resetting the air pressure properly (it should be
at 2 lb below the setpoint when empty). This may at least extend
the time before you absolutely have to do something (then again, it
may not, but it's definitely worth a shot).

If it were from a leak, I think you would have chance to find it from
the leak unless the pipe is really deeply buried or you have very wet
climate anyway so a wet spot isn't easily noticed.

I don't see the check valve solving anything.

I expect the fix to be a complete repiping with plastic. I also
assume that
at some point they would have to pull the pump up to make the
attachment. Would it be advisable to replace the pump at that time
(40 years old)? I guess water is not free. You pay for it one way or
another.

If it is indeed submersible pump and the line down the well is also
galvanized, then yes, to replace it will require pulling the pump.
Whether it needs replacing can be told by the well service folks
from a test on the pump and motor. At that age, its likely to have
enough wear that you could indeed, possibly forestall another need
to pull the well for quite a while by going ahead, but I'd evaluate
it at the time. Of course, that also is partly dependent on how deep
a well and how big the pump is.

I also agree that letting it go as is will be more expensive than
fixing it now and will likely lead to a complete failure that will
result in emergency repair rather than elective which may cost even
more (assuming you don't have a practical alternate water supply
other than buying water for all your needs or finding another place
to live temporarily).

wrote:
jmagerl wrote:
My water system is losing pressure causing the pump to come on every 3
minutes for about 10 seconds. The leak is somewhere outside the house.

The most likely cause would be a leak in the 40 year old galvanized pipe
they used to bring the water to the house. (I had a previous leak this
spring of that cause).

I am out of cash for such a major repair at this time and would like to
postpone it till spring (bonus time). So my question would be: Would could I
expect to happen if I installed a check valve inside the house? I am mainly
interested in reducing the short cycling on the pump. What other failures
can cause this problem? If there were a pin hole leak in the pipe, would I
see it at the surface? Would I be open to contamination?

I expect the fix to be a complete repiping with plastic. I also assume that
at some point they would have to pull the pump up to make the attachment.
Would it be advisable to replace the pump at that time (40 years old)?

I guess water is not free. You pay for it one way or another.
The joys of home ownership......

The short cycling is not due to the leak- the on/off setpoints are too
close, or the tank has too little air in it (if its a bladder type
tank, the bladder could be shot).


snip

Dave

The short cycling most assuredly _is_ due to a leak. He says the pump
runs every 3 minutes. It won't do that unless the pressure is leaking
down. Improper precharge or maladjusted pressure switches only cause
problems when water is being drawn.

Harry K

jmagerl wrote:
No I'm not sure at all. I doesn't seem to be pumping air but I havent really
let the system run down. I'm thinking that if the leak were above the water
level in the well (and in the external pipe), at some point all the water
would drain into the well and I would have air in the pipe. if that
happened, the next time the pumpgoes on, I would get air. That doesnt seem
to be happening. So I either have a leak below the water level in the well
or I havent let the system get that low. Tonight, I close the valve that
shuts the well off and let it sit to see if I suck air.


"Rich" wrote in message
g.com...
Are you sure it isn't the check valve built into the pump that isn't
letting water drain back down the line? You proved it is from the valve to
the pump but haven't proven it is a leak yet. Also could be a broken pipe
down to the pump that would cause the same thing as the pump check valve
being out of service too and not show up as a leak as it is just putting
water back down the well casing.

Rich


snip


OKay. Ignore all the 'the problem is the tank' replies - it isn't.
You are correct - you have a leak and that should have been obvious to
everyone from the first post.

The leak is almost (note the 'almost') certainly to be in the pipe from
the well to the house because it is where pipe is in contact with the
ground that most corrosion occurs (been there and done that - had to
replace 1/4 mile of line for my "new" house).

Check valve? Will work but it is only a temporary fix.

With a 40 year old pump - yes, replace it if they pull the well. The
line from well to house can be replaced without pulling the well. The
pipe going down the well should be inspected as it -might- need
replacing also but the entire string won't need pulling to do it.

You said the precharge 'had been checked'. Later is sounds as if you
know how to do it yourself. If not:

Shut pump off
Drain tank
Set pressure to 2 psi below your cut-in.

Another thing to check while working is to see if you have the proper
cut in/out differential - should be about 20psi, i.e., 30/50, 40/60.
Higher than 60 is not recommended for residence.

Harry K

Where it all stands:
Thanks for all the inputs. You guys scared me enough to call the well pro's
in. THey pulled the pump out enough to expose the pitless adaptor, put a
pressure gauge on it, and pressurized the pump end of things. THere were no
leaks. Next he got out a 5 ft rod and started to push it into the ground
following the undergriund pipe, RIght at the well, it went into the ground
in one easy stroke. "Found the leak" he saiid. For a temperary fix he
installed a check valve inside the house.

Come spring we will be replacing the underground galvanized pipe with
plastic. The pipe in the well is still galvanized and I need to consider if
that needs replacing also,

The check valve the well guy installed was far superior to anything I could
find at HD. IT was spring loaded and worked in any direction and guarenteed
a shut off even with no back flow. IT was worth calling the pro in just to
not have to deal with the low end stuff that HD sells.

Just for information, I asked Mr. well guy if he could determine how far
down the water level was. He pulled out a high power ultrasonic measuring
device and in five seconds he said 55 ft. Kewl! Still don't know how deep
the well is or how far down the pump is suspended

"jmagerl" wrote in message
...
My water system is losing pressure causing the pump to come on every 3
minutes for about 10 seconds. The leak is somewhere outside the house.

The most likely cause would be a leak in the 40 year old galvanized pipe
they used to bring the water to the house. (I had a previous leak this
spring of that cause).

I am out of cash for such a major repair at this time and would like to
postpone it till spring (bonus time). So my question would be: Would could
I expect to happen if I installed a check valve inside the house? I am
mainly interested in reducing the short cycling on the pump. What other
failures can cause this problem? If there were a pin hole leak in the
pipe, would I see it at the surface? Would I be open to contamination?

I expect the fix to be a complete repiping with plastic. I also assume
that at some point they would have to pull the pump up to make the
attachment. Would it be advisable to replace the pump at that time (40
years old)?

I guess water is not free. You pay for it one way or another.
The joys of home ownership......

jmagerl wrote:
Where it all stands:
Thanks for all the inputs. You guys scared me enough to call the well pro's
in. THey pulled the pump out enough to expose the pitless adaptor, put a
pressure gauge on it, and pressurized the pump end of things. THere were no
leaks. Next he got out a 5 ft rod and started to push it into the ground
following the undergriund pipe, RIght at the well, it went into the ground
in one easy stroke. "Found the leak" he saiid. For a temperary fix he
installed a check valve inside the house.

Come spring we will be replacing the underground galvanized pipe with
plastic. The pipe in the well is still galvanized and I need to consider if
that needs replacing also,

The check valve the well guy installed was far superior to anything I could
find at HD. IT was spring loaded and worked in any direction and guarenteed
a shut off even with no back flow. IT was worth calling the pro in just to
not have to deal with the low end stuff that HD sells.

Just for information, I asked Mr. well guy if he could determine how far
down the water level was. He pulled out a high power ultrasonic measuring
device and in five seconds he said 55 ft. Kewl! Still don't know how deep
the well is or how far down the pump is suspended

"jmagerl" wrote in message
...
My water system is losing pressure causing the pump to come on every 3
minutes for about 10 seconds. The leak is somewhere outside the house.

The most likely cause would be a leak in the 40 year old galvanized pipe
they used to bring the water to the house. (I had a previous leak this
spring of that cause).

I am out of cash for such a major repair at this time and would like to
postpone it till spring (bonus time). So my question would be: Would could
I expect to happen if I installed a check valve inside the house? I am
mainly interested in reducing the short cycling on the pump. What other
failures can cause this problem? If there were a pin hole leak in the
pipe, would I see it at the surface? Would I be open to contamination?

I expect the fix to be a complete repiping with plastic. I also assume
that at some point they would have to pull the pump up to make the
attachment. Would it be advisable to replace the pump at that time (40
years old)?

I guess water is not free. You pay for it one way or another.
The joys of home ownership......



Thank you for the update. It is quite possible that the down pipe in
the well is O.K. Usually pipe will corrode in contact with ground not
water. They do crud up on the inside though from stuff in the water.

Just curious. If you don't mind, what was the bill for the work they
did? Particularly interested in the charge just for the well work, not
the fix on the pipe.

Harry K

"Harry K"

snip

Thank you for the update. It is quite possible that the down pipe in
the well is O.K. Usually pipe will corrode in contact with ground not
water. They do crud up on the inside though from stuff in the water.

Just curious. If you don't mind, what was the bill for the work they
did? Particularly interested in the charge just for the well work, not
the fix on the pipe.

Harry K



I will let you know when I get it