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Weighing down trash cans
Hi, I live in a very windy area and my neighbors and I are having
problems with trash cans getting knocked over because of the strong wind gusts, as well as the lids opening up. I am trying to come up with a way of weighing down both the bottom and the lid of the trash cans so that: 1) The lid doesn't open up when trash is set out to be picked up. 2) The empty can doesn't blow away after the trash has been picked up. I cannot simply tie weights to the cans because they will flail around when the trash cans are emptied by the mechanical arm of the trash truck. The weights also have to be able to stay secured even when the can is shaken upside down when it is emptied. Also, the weights need to be easily attachable/removeable since it's only windy a few months out of the year, and I cannot seriously alter the trash cans since they are city property. I was thinking of bolting on something that can hold the weights themselves, and when the weights are not needed, they can be removed while the thing that holds the weights stays permanently attached. I haven't found anything that would do the job for this. Any other ideas? |
Weighing down trash cans
mike wrote: Hi, I live in a very windy area and my neighbors and I are having problems with trash cans getting knocked over because of the strong wind gusts, as well as the lids opening up. I am trying to come up with a way of weighing down both the bottom and the lid of the trash cans so that: 1) The lid doesn't open up when trash is set out to be picked up. 2) The empty can doesn't blow away after the trash has been picked up. I cannot simply tie weights to the cans because they will flail around when the trash cans are emptied by the mechanical arm of the trash truck. The weights also have to be able to stay secured even when the can is shaken upside down when it is emptied. Also, the weights need to be easily attachable/removeable since it's only windy a few months out of the year, and I cannot seriously alter the trash cans since they are city property. I was thinking of bolting on something that can hold the weights themselves, and when the weights are not needed, they can be removed while the thing that holds the weights stays permanently attached. I haven't found anything that would do the job for this. Any other ideas? It's a little hard since you cannot attach anything to it. Maybe if you created like a small box that your can could sit in that is box shaped with enough room for the mechanical arms to grip it. It'd probably have to be about 24-36 inches high. That would probably solve the blowing down the street problem. I'm not sure how to solve the lid flapping problem. |
Weighing down trash cans
In article .com, "mike" wrote:
Hi, I live in a very windy area and my neighbors and I are having problems with trash cans getting knocked over because of the strong wind gusts, as well as the lids opening up. I am trying to come up with a way of weighing down both the bottom and the lid of the trash cans so that: 1) The lid doesn't open up when trash is set out to be picked up. 2) The empty can doesn't blow away after the trash has been picked up. If the trash cans blow around, despite your weights, and cause some damage (e.g. to a car) guess who's likely to be held liable? I'd start by talking to City Hall and/or your local garbage collection company. -- |~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~| | Malcolm Hoar "The more I practice, the luckier I get". | | Gary Player. | | http://www.malch.com/ Shpx gur PQN. | ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
Weighing down trash cans
I guess it wouldn't hurt to give them a call. The worst they can say is
"it's not our problem". |
Weighing down trash cans
A box might not be a bad idea. I might look into that. Thanks.
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Weighing down trash cans
mike wrote:
Hi, I live in a very windy area and my neighbors and I are having problems with trash cans getting knocked over because of the strong wind gusts, as well as the lids opening up. I am trying to come up with a way of weighing down both the bottom and the lid of the trash cans so that: 1) The lid doesn't open up when trash is set out to be picked up. 2) The empty can doesn't blow away after the trash has been picked up. I cannot simply tie weights to the cans because they will flail around when the trash cans are emptied by the mechanical arm of the trash truck. The weights also have to be able to stay secured even when the can is shaken upside down when it is emptied. Also, the weights need to be easily attachable/removeable since it's only windy a few months out of the year, and I cannot seriously alter the trash cans since they are city property. I was thinking of bolting on something that can hold the weights themselves, and when the weights are not needed, they can be removed while the thing that holds the weights stays permanently attached. I haven't found anything that would do the job for this. Any other ideas? Depending on the neighborhood layout, you might consider consolidating with a few neighbors and building a little 3 sided fence enclosure to shield the cans from the wind, open on the street side and with enough clearance for the pickup arm. Pete C. |
Weighing down trash cans
In article .com, mike says...
Hi, I live in a very windy area and my neighbors and I are having problems with trash cans getting knocked over because of the strong wind gusts, as well as the lids opening up. I am trying to come up with a way of weighing down both the bottom and the lid of the trash cans so that: 1) The lid doesn't open up when trash is set out to be picked up. 2) The empty can doesn't blow away after the trash has been picked up. I cannot simply tie weights to the cans because they will flail around when the trash cans are emptied by the mechanical arm of the trash truck. The weights also have to be able to stay secured even when the can is shaken upside down when it is emptied. Also, the weights need to be easily attachable/removeable since it's only windy a few months out of the year, and I cannot seriously alter the trash cans since they are city property. I was thinking of bolting on something that can hold the weights themselves, and when the weights are not needed, they can be removed while the thing that holds the weights stays permanently attached. I haven't found anything that would do the job for this. Any other ideas? It would depend on your trash company, but where I grew up in West Texas, the garbage cans were sometimes buried and they were pulled up for disposal. Do they have any of that sort of arrangement in your area? Possibly they'd do that - it's just not how it's set up in your immediate neighborhood. Banty |
Weighing down trash cans
The layout of the neighboorhood doesn't lend itself well to that. It
would have to be in someone's front yard pretty much. |
Weighing down trash cans
I was thinking of using rebar but flat metal plates would work much
better I would think. Is there a better place than HD/Lowes to find something like this? I've seen metal stakes over in the building materials section but those might be a little to heavy to be attached with tape. |
Weighing down trash cans
There's nowhere to put the trash cans below ground here. It's a suburb.
Lots of concrete and lawns. :) |
Weighing down trash cans
On 4 Dec 2006 09:13:40 -0800, "mike" wrote:
Hi, I live in a very windy area and my neighbors and I are having problems with trash cans getting knocked over because of the strong wind gusts, as well as the lids opening up. I am trying to come up with a way of weighing down both the bottom and the lid of the trash cans so that: 1) The lid doesn't open up when trash is set out to be picked up. 2) The empty can doesn't blow away after the trash has been picked up. I cannot simply tie weights to the cans because they will flail around when the trash cans are emptied by the mechanical arm of the trash truck. The weights also have to be able to stay secured even when the can is shaken upside down when it is emptied. Also, the weights need to be easily attachable/removeable since it's only windy a few months out of the year, and I cannot seriously alter the trash cans since they are city property. I was thinking of bolting on something that can hold the weights themselves, and when the weights are not needed, they can be removed while the thing that holds the weights stays permanently attached. I haven't found anything that would do the job for this. Any other ideas? Build a giant cup-holder. |
Weighing down trash cans
mike wrote:
Hi, I live in a very windy area and my neighbors and I are having problems with trash cans getting knocked over because of the strong wind gusts, as well as the lids opening up. Use plastic bags. See below for another solution. |
Weighing down trash cans
mike wrote:
I guess it wouldn't hurt to give them a call. The worst they can say is "it's not our problem". About 2 years ago, my city (Houston) did something remarkable. Remarkable in that it's novel and it works. They contracted with BF to pick up the trash. BF gave everybody a special, wheeled, 40-gallon dumpster/can. Park the mini-dumpster on the curb on the appointed day and a truck-thingy comes by with grabber arms that snatch the can, dump its contets, and set it back on the curb. It's a one-man crew and the little truck scoots down the street grabbing cans and emptying them. Quick like a bunny. Couldn't be more pleased and that is remarkable for a city "service." Now, in your case, be aware there are no secrets in the trash collecting business. Your city knows about the service Browning-Ferris has available. They choose not to implement it, probably because one of the city councilmen services the city's trucks. PS The city save beacoup bucks, too. |
Weighing down trash cans
We don't have trash bags as an option for our trash pickup, just the
standard wheeled trash cans. When I lived in SLO, CA, they used to provide the option of trash bags, which would be perfect on days where its windy. A "cup holder" might work too, but I don't know how long it would survive the trash trucks around here. They're not very gentle, quiet, or precise when it comes to picking up the trash cans. :) |
Weighing down trash cans
"mike" wrote in
oups.com: Hi, I live in a very windy area and my neighbors and I are having problems with trash cans getting knocked over because of the strong wind gusts, as well as the lids opening up. I am trying to come up with a way of weighing down both the bottom and the lid of the trash cans so that: 1) The lid doesn't open up when trash is set out to be picked up. 2) The empty can doesn't blow away after the trash has been picked up. I cannot simply tie weights to the cans because they will flail around when the trash cans are emptied by the mechanical arm of the trash truck. The weights also have to be able to stay secured even when the can is shaken upside down when it is emptied. Also, the weights need to be easily attachable/removeable since it's only windy a few months out of the year, and I cannot seriously alter the trash cans since they are city property. I was thinking of bolting on something that can hold the weights themselves, and when the weights are not needed, they can be removed while the thing that holds the weights stays permanently attached. I haven't found anything that would do the job for this. Any other ideas? Sand bags? -- Jim Yanik jyanik at kua.net |
Weighing down trash cans
How about getting a shallow wide box, filling it with concrete and
putting a bolt sticking out. You drill a hole in the trash can, set it on the concrete and attach it with nuts, take it off when you don't need it. Or, do the same with 4 coffee cans, one on each corner. Or build a small 3 sided structure to hold the trash can. Cover it with climbing vines. You could use 4 sides and a top and tell every one you were bear proofing the can. High tech approach, use an electromagnet like the kind that holds security gates shut. Have the on /off switch out where the Sanitation Workers (--I don't know where you live. Around here we call them trash man) can activate the switch. Remember, you get what you pay for. And my advice it free. Eric On 5 Dec 2006 00:53:43 GMT, Jim Yanik wrote: "mike" wrote in roups.com: Hi, I live in a very windy area and my neighbors and I are having problems with trash cans getting knocked over because of the strong wind gusts, as well as the lids opening up. I am trying to come up with a way of weighing down both the bottom and the lid of the trash cans so that: 1) The lid doesn't open up when trash is set out to be picked up. 2) The empty can doesn't blow away after the trash has been picked up. I cannot simply tie weights to the cans because they will flail around when the trash cans are emptied by the mechanical arm of the trash truck. The weights also have to be able to stay secured even when the can is shaken upside down when it is emptied. Also, the weights need to be easily attachable/removeable since it's only windy a few months out of the year, and I cannot seriously alter the trash cans since they are city property. I was thinking of bolting on something that can hold the weights themselves, and when the weights are not needed, they can be removed while the thing that holds the weights stays permanently attached. I haven't found anything that would do the job for this. Any other ideas? Sand bags? |
Weighing down trash cans
"mike" wrote in message oups.com... Hi, I live in a very windy area and my neighbors and I are having problems with trash cans getting knocked over because of the strong wind gusts, as well as the lids opening up. Get a piece of 1/2" steel plate and bolt it to the bottom of the can. |
Weighing down trash cans
Eric Kent wrote: How about getting a shallow wide box, filling it with concrete and putting a bolt sticking out. You drill a hole in the trash can, set it on the concrete and attach it with nuts, take it off when you don't need it. Or, do the same with 4 coffee cans, one on each corner. Or build a small 3 sided structure to hold the trash can. Cover it with climbing vines. You could use 4 sides and a top and tell every one you were bear proofing the can. High tech approach, use an electromagnet like the kind that holds security gates shut. Have the on /off switch out where the Sanitation Workers (--I don't know where you live. Around here we call them trash man) can activate the switch. Remember, you get what you pay for. And my advice it free. Eric If it's like any of the trash men around here, they are lazy and don't like getting out of their vehicles. The mechanical arm makes it much easier for them. Takes two guys instead of three. On 5 Dec 2006 00:53:43 GMT, Jim Yanik wrote: "mike" wrote in roups.com: Hi, I live in a very windy area and my neighbors and I are having problems with trash cans getting knocked over because of the strong wind gusts, as well as the lids opening up. I am trying to come up with a way of weighing down both the bottom and the lid of the trash cans so that: 1) The lid doesn't open up when trash is set out to be picked up. 2) The empty can doesn't blow away after the trash has been picked up. I cannot simply tie weights to the cans because they will flail around when the trash cans are emptied by the mechanical arm of the trash truck. The weights also have to be able to stay secured even when the can is shaken upside down when it is emptied. Also, the weights need to be easily attachable/removeable since it's only windy a few months out of the year, and I cannot seriously alter the trash cans since they are city property. I was thinking of bolting on something that can hold the weights themselves, and when the weights are not needed, they can be removed while the thing that holds the weights stays permanently attached. I haven't found anything that would do the job for this. Any other ideas? Sand bags? |
Weighing down trash cans
wrote in message ... On Mon, 4 Dec 2006 18:47:44 -0700, "Bob M." wrote: "mike" wrote in message groups.com... Hi, I live in a very windy area and my neighbors and I are having problems with trash cans getting knocked over because of the strong wind gusts, as well as the lids opening up. Get a piece of 1/2" steel plate and bolt it to the bottom of the can. He doesn't own the can. Drilling holes in the cans is against the rules Okay, After all the fisting through the other posters I have to say I have the same set up as you. I have had the SAME freaking garbage can for over TEN years! So my advice is don't worry about it...and try this.... Take the empty can and clean it out. Flip the can upside down and screw in the bottom about four 1/2 inch lagbolts about 2 inches long using very large washers as back up.. Then flip the can over and lay in the bottom of the container wax paper allowing the lag bolts to come through the paper. Then toss a few scuba diving lead weights to the bottom of the can. This is followed by pouring fiberglass resin over the lag bolts and diving weights. Do the same to the lid. Your present problem is solved. (Lead weight can include going to your nearest tire store and obtaining discarded tire weights etc...anything heavy....your mothers old iron etc) So you think you have damaged this container? Absolutely not!... Live with it and be happy!! People worry too much!! If there's a change in any neighbourhood garbage contract there is generally a BIG announcement! There will be a flyer in your mailbox or something hanging from your door stating they will be by to collect the garbage cans and a different one will be issued Etc ETc... Now THAT is when you have to worry!! But you can fix the problem....Take it to your garage and extract the bolts, dump the weight. Go to the nearest auto supply and buy a tube of JB Weld and repair the holes...cover the repair with mud....and quit worrying about such a small rule. Do you really think a contractor that has lost a garbage contract is going to inspect each and every can at your doorstep? Unless it's obvious damage I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. In the very worse case scenereo, ...run the damned thing over and totally destroy it... then leave it in the ditch in front of your house for pick up... If they come knocking say "It must have been hit by a drunk driver etc..... Freaking KIDS nowadays!" Bottom line is alter the can for your use (which could be ten years or more) and deal with the rest which would be a pittance....Take care....jimi |
Weighing down trash cans
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Weighing down trash cans
mike wrote:
1) The lid doesn't open up when trash is set out to be picked up. 2) The empty can doesn't blow away after the trash has been picked up. 1) Screw a bungee from the side of the can to the lid so that the lid returns to the closed position normally but will flip open when pressure is applied to it, as it would when the garbage handler has the can upside down. The weight of the garbage should provide the opening force when the can is upside down. 2. Bolt a heavy steel plate to the base of the can to weigh the whole thing down, plus concentrate the center of gravity at the bottom of the can. If the city is picky about altering their cans, put everything on the inside of the can. Nobody actually looks at the cans once the arm hooks them, so your alterations will remain your business. -- Mortimer Schnerd, RN mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com |
Weighing down trash cans
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Weighing down trash cans
Be aware of this:
In our locality, if a trash can is too heavy, the men will not lift it. And the supervisor you call will back them up. In our locality, any alterations to the rental type containers means you just bought it. The way they swing those things around, extra weights might cause it to fly over the truck. Make a rack to hold them. Some sort of enclosure. Steve |
Weighing down trash cans
We have one guy per truck here. They'd probably have 0 if the trucks
could drive themselves. |
Weighing down trash cans
I like the idea of the bungees since they're lightweights, so I could
keep them on there all the time if they don't get in the way. The problem with putting bolts in the cans is that I either have to live with the weights in the cans year-round or I have to remove them and deal with the holes in the can. With the winds we get around here, having a couple extra pounds isn't going to do the job...I need to be putting in probably about 20 pounds of weight at the bottom. I could live with that but some of my neighbors who are also trying to address this problem aren't strong enough to move an extra 20 pounds in the cans all the time, so being removeable is key, at least for them. |
Weighing down trash cans
On 5 Dec 2006 10:19:35 -0800, "mike" wrote:
I like the idea of the bungees since they're lightweights, so I could keep them on there all the time if they don't get in the way. The problem with putting bolts in the cans is that I either have to live with the weights in the cans year-round or I have to remove them and deal with the holes in the can. With the winds we get around here, having a couple extra pounds isn't going to do the job...I need to be putting in probably about 20 pounds of weight at the bottom. I could live with that but some of my neighbors who are also trying to address this problem aren't strong enough to move an extra 20 pounds in the cans all the time, so being removeable is key, at least for them. I wonder if magnetic paint and a big-ass magnet would work. |
Weighing down trash cans
On 5 Dec 2006 10:19:35 -0800, "mike" wrote:
I like the idea of the bungees since they're lightweights, so I could keep them on there all the time if they don't get in the way. The problem with putting bolts in the cans is that I either have to live with the weights in the cans year-round or I have to remove them and deal with the holes in the can. With the winds we get around here, having a couple extra pounds isn't going to do the job...I need to be putting in probably about 20 pounds of weight at the bottom. I could live with that but some of my neighbors who are also trying to address this problem aren't strong enough to move an extra 20 pounds in the cans all the time, so being removeable is key, at least for them. You could anchor a hook(eye) to the ground and put a snap on the can. This would be a trip hazard if you ever moved the can. You can use a threaded anchor so you can remove the hook easily. You could also put a latch on the lid. |
Weighing down trash cans
One idea I had was to try to find something like a pipe repair clamp
(the thing that clamps onto a water pipe to repair a leak), but really heavy. I could then clamp this onto the axle of the wheel when needed and unclamp it when I don't. There's a handle on the front side of the can that I could also clamp something to in order to balance the extra weight. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find anything that would do the job. |
Weighing down trash cans
On Tue, 05 Dec 2006 20:00:26 GMT, Malcolm Hoar wrote:
In article , pe wrote: Let's get CREATIVE. Replace the wheels with iron weight lifting weights. Epoxy and a bit of copper pipe can be inserted into the 1 inch holes in TWO ten pound weights for each side to fit the axle of the can. even a wood dowel would work in the weights with duct tape holding them together. I just put my garbage can out and this morning and checked the wheels,very doable on mine. This would add 40 pounds to the can. Duct Tape five pounds plus of bar steel inside the lid near the front and the wind can't life it. Aside from the risks of injury/damage from the weights, bear in mind that many of the modern garbage trucks with the robot arms to lift/empty the bins are also equipped with weight sensors. If the total weight of the bin exceeds a preset threshold, it won't be emptied. Of course. That's why you should counterweight it with LTA ballasts. |
Weighing down trash cans
Now that's creative! :) I would think the weights would rust in a short
manner of time. They are always outside. Points for creativity, nonetheless. |
Weighing down trash cans
Malcolm Hoar wrote:
Aside from the risks of injury/damage from the weights, bear in mind that many of the modern garbage trucks with the robot arms to lift/empty the bins are also equipped with weight sensors. If the total weight of the bin exceeds a preset threshold, it won't be emptied. They must not be that advanced in Charlotte, NC. I was barely able to roll a neighbor's can out for him once, it was so stuffed with construction waste including cement blocks, etc. The city's trucks emptied it just like any other. Must have made one hell of a noise when all the cement block hit the interior of the truck. We just have the one guy on the truck. He drives it and operates the arm. Nobody ever physically touches a can except for the homeowner. And once the crap's in the truck, it's like it never happened, even if the payload was officially contraband. The driver isn't going to wade into the detritus just to fish out your cement blocks. -- Mortimer Schnerd, RN mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com |
Weighing down trash cans
Malcolm Hoar wrote:
If you add sufficient weight to prevent an empty bin from blowing around in high winds, there's a good chance that bin, when full, will weigh more than the trucks are programmed to handle. Easy enough to test: Roll a heavy load of bricks or something similar and see if they take them away. Either they do or they don't. Remember, it's always easier to receive forgiveness than permission. -- Mortimer Schnerd, RN mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com |
Weighing down trash cans
"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com wrote Easy enough to test: Roll a heavy load of bricks or something similar and see if they take them away. Either they do or they don't. Remember, it's always easier to receive forgiveness than permission. It's up to the driver and pitcher. At my house, we did a remodel. When the trash men came, we gave them cold bottles of water and sodas. They backed up to the trash pile, and we pitched sheetrock, trashed cabinets, lots of stuff they probably wouldn't have taken if they had been just sitting there alone. A little bribery (and kindness) goes a long ways. My regular guys will take just about anything I put out there. But I have to watch, because some of the fill in guys are rather picky. But even the fill in guys are a sucker for a bottle of water or a cold soda. Steve |
Weighing down trash cans
It sounds to me that you are using the approved garbage receptacle
that the trash pickup company recommends in order to work properly with their automated truck arms. If so it's up to them to make it work. If it doesn't work for whatever reason you need to complain to them until they come up with a solution. |
Weighing down trash cans
I called. Their solution is..."call us when the container becomes
damaged or missing and we will replace it". They don't have idea what to do in windy areas. |
Weighing down trash cans
In article , "Mortimer Schnerd, RN" mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com wrote:
They must not be that advanced in Charlotte, NC. I was barely able to roll a neighbor's can out for him once, it was so stuffed with construction waste including cement blocks, etc. A BFI rep told be about the weight sensors just a few weeks ago. Initially, I was very surprised. But, after a few moments thought, it seemed to make sense. It's prudent to protect the (rather expensive) truck, and the driver too. And you can imagine the lawsuits if an overloaded bin came crashing down on a passing pedestrian. Looks to me like weight sensors would pay for themselves in very little time at all. I suspect that organizations like BFI have given more than a little thought to metered (by weight) garbage collection fees too. -- |~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~| | Malcolm Hoar "The more I practice, the luckier I get". | | Gary Player. | | http://www.malch.com/ Shpx gur PQN. | ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
Weighing down trash cans
In article . com, "mike" wrote:
I called. Their solution is..."call us when the container becomes damaged or missing and we will replace it". They don't have idea what to do in windy areas. Heh, that's certainly true around here. A few weeks ago the truck swallowed one of my wheelie bins -- not just the contents. I called BFI and they said it happens fairly regularly. They delivered a new bin later that *same* day! I was really quite impressed. I am almost very impressed with the skill and courtesy of the BFI truck drivers around here. They really go to great lengths to be safe and avoid inconveniencing people. -- |~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~| | Malcolm Hoar "The more I practice, the luckier I get". | | Gary Player. | | http://www.malch.com/ Shpx gur PQN. | ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
Weighing down trash cans
On 5 Dec 2006 14:17:22 -0800, "mike" wrote:
I called. Their solution is..."call us when the container becomes damaged or missing and we will replace it". They don't have idea what to do in windy areas. Good. Call them twice a month to report a missing windblown trash container. Have your neighbors do this too. Take the missing trash containers and sell them on E-bay. |
Weighing down trash cans
In article , wrote:
On 5 Dec 2006 14:17:22 -0800, "mike" wrote: I called. Their solution is..."call us when the container becomes damaged or missing and we will replace it". They don't have idea what to do in windy areas. Good. Call them twice a month to report a missing windblown trash container. Have your neighbors do this too. Take the missing trash containers and sell them on E-bay. and go to jail... -- |~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~| | Malcolm Hoar "The more I practice, the luckier I get". | | Gary Player. | | http://www.malch.com/ Shpx gur PQN. | ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
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