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Knob & Tube and Cloth Shielded Wiring
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Knob & Tube and Cloth Shielded Wiring
In article .com,
says... The NEW owner probably couldnt get homeowners insurance That varies by state, there are parts of the country where getting insurance for K&T isn't a problem; in other parts of the country it's quite difficult. In Washington State, for example, I didn't have any trouble insuring my home with K&T, but it did make the insurance more expensive. and ANYONE you try selling too is going to have the same issues. Plus you now MUST disclose this problem to all perspective buyers! K&T isn't a defect per se, it's simply outdated. I wouldn't suggest hiding it from buyers, but I wouldn't intentionally scare them with it, either. You would of MUCH better off discounting the home price by the cost of rewiring and selling the home. This isnt just a problem for THIS BUYER its now a problem for all buyers! If I were selling, I'd at least get a quote for a rewire, to decide whether to take care of it before selling or to sell the house as-is. I'd also do a bit of insurance shopping, and if I found an insurance company that would insure the house without rewiring, I'd invite them to write a letter to that effect that could be shown to prospective buyers. If you're in a location where the wiring really will prevent anyone from insuring the house, that could greatly depress the selling price, because without insurance they also won't be able to get a mortgage. If you're in an area where K&T just means a few hundred dollars a year in higher insurance premiums, I'd find a good insurer to refer buyers to and sell as-is. -- is Joshua Putnam http://www.phred.org/~josh/ Updated Infrared Photography Gallery: http://www.phred.org/~josh/photo/ir.html |
Knob & Tube and Cloth Shielded Wiring
spake thus:
insurance today is risk adverse. It's "risk averse"--sheesh, why does everyone get that one wrong? And insurers have *always* been risk-averse. Nothing new there. -- Just as McDonald's is where you go when you're hungry but don't really care about the quality of your food, Wikipedia is where you go when you're curious but don't really care about the quality of your knowledge. - Matthew White's WikiWatch (http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/wikiwoo.htm) |
Knob & Tube and Cloth Shielded Wiring
wrote:
How is it a "problem" if everything is code compliant? Yes, he should tell prospective buyers that the house is wired with K&T so they aren't surprised but that would not fall under the category of disclosing a fault. UNLESS - of course - the receptacles are grounding type and are not really grounded. that would be a violation that ought to be disclosed. nate The OP reported the following which NOW must be told to any and all perspective buyers as part of every states disclosure law. failure to disclose this leavesthe seller at lawsuit risk and it will be hard to find any buyer to purchase a home requiring complete rewire, ulnless the new buyer happens to say be a electrician quote from OP An electrician hired by a potential buyer said : "to correct the ungrounded wiring to the existing receptacles and removal of the knob and tube wiring a complete rewiring of the residence would have to be done which would also increase the size of upgrading the electrical panel to 200 amps to But where's the code violation? No violation, nothing to disclose. I agree he should mention that the wiring is K&T but that's it. nate -- replace "fly" with "com" to reply. http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel |
Knob & Tube and Cloth Shielded Wiring
makes you so sure that the (prospective) seller *must* disclose it? The report came from an electrician hired by a prospective buyer: are you a real estate lawyer, and can therefore tell us that this makes disclosure mandatory? I'm not, and I can't. Not that he shouldn't, of course; besides which, no buyer in their right mind should buy the house before determining the type and condition of wiring in the house. In any case, it's far from a show-stopper for selling the house. Lots of old houses have old wiring that should be, or has to be, replaced, and buyers are (or should be) aware of this. It all comes down to figuring it into the selling price. I sold a home about 2 years ago, the first buyer backed out after the home inspection. The realtor said I HAD to give all shoppers access to the first home inspection since it was now part of the disclosure process.. I fixed mearly every issue the first inspector found, except the attic temp which was more than 15 degrees hotter than the outside on a hot july day. Home inspector one said I had to add vent fans even though I had ridge and gable end vents. oddly the second inspector said it wasnt a problem. today selling a home is a minefield of hassles even when your home is in great shape. first home inspector complained no GFCI on sump pump, second inspector complained it WAS protected, I had added a GFCI for the pump. |
Knob & Tube and Cloth Shielded Wiring
The only real problem with K&T is that much of it has been abused and misused over the years. If the wiring is brittle, usually from overheating from air conditioners and such, or kitchen circuits, or light fixtures, yes, it's time for it to go. OTOH, some K&T, usually in well maintained historic sections have been well taken care of and is still good. I've seen more bad K&T than good, though. That's probably one reason many insurance companies won't touch it with a 10 foot pole. OTOH, some insurance companies and financial institutions usually only require that the service be upgraded and some kitchen circuits be added. In a 900 Sq. Ft. house with gas appliances, that's about all that would be needed. In some areas that's all that would be required. In my area, not so, not only do we have to re-wire everything, but must also tear out all of the K&T. You see there are TWO ISSUES NEC which grandfathers stuff in and mortage and insurance companies who set their OWN RULES. Now its IMPOSSIBLE to inspect all the K&T since its buried in walls, lacks boxes and is often abused by ACs and other heavy loads. Honestly wouldnt it cost more to inspect it than rewire? The last part of his post says from a PRO ............ not only replace it all but rip out all the old K&T thats so someone doesnt decide to reuse it in the future OTOH, some insurance companies and financial institutions usually only require that the service be upgraded and some kitchen circuits be added. In a 900 Sq. Ft. house with gas appliances, that's about all that would be needed. In some areas that's all that would be required. In my area, not so, not only do we have to re-wire everything, but must also tear out all of the K&T. |
Knob & Tube and Cloth Shielded Wiring
I HAVE A GOOD IDEA, WHEN AND IF THE OP SELLS HIS HOME WOULD HE PLEASE
REPORT BACK HERE WITH THE OUTCOME? MY INSURANCE AGENT SAID homeowners used to be a cash cow, but after the major hurricane losses the underwriters started looking closely to minimize all future losses. so 5 years ago K&T may have been no problem but today its a showstopper. or may raise insurance premiums a LOT....... |
Knob & Tube and Cloth Shielded Wiring
But where's the code violation? No violation, nothing to disclose. I agree he should mention that the wiring is K&T but that's it. nate disclosure isnt limited to code violations. LONG list, age of roof?any leaks EVER? ANYTHING THAT EVER WENT WRONG and how it was fixed. fail to disclose, item causes trouble seller pays for repairs, and worse it will be a high class high cost job. neighbor had bad sewer line terracotta pipe, everyones is bad. tree roots:( plus illegal install at time homes were built over 50 years ago. Sewer line also under slab drain.:( anyhow the buyer sued the seller and won over 10 grand for sewer line replacement and yard / driveway restoration........... the old days of cover it up buyers trouble are long gone |
Knob & Tube and Cloth Shielded Wiring
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Knob & Tube and Cloth Shielded Wiring
Charlie Morgan wrote:
On Sun, 3 Dec 2006 17:56:15 -0500, "RBM" rbm2(remove wrote: If you own a code book you can read section 250.131C It is illegal in all 50 states to use cold water pipes for ground. That has been true for many years. Cold water pipes should be bonded for safety, but they are not allowed as a point for grounding wiring. CWM Interesting you do not comment on RBM's code citation (which should actually be 250.130C). It explicitly permits attachment of a ground wire at "any accessible point on the grounding electrode system". That includes the first 5 feet of water pipe inside the building. RBM's statement is in acordance with the NEC. -- bud-- |
Knob & Tube and Cloth Shielded Wiring
Nate Nagel wrote:
Charlie Morgan wrote: On Sun, 3 Dec 2006 16:42:17 -0500, "RBM" rbm2(remove wrote: Let me clarify. You can connect it to your main cold water pipe within five feet of where it enters the building. You can also connect it to the fuse box or anything that is grounding the fuse box No you can't. Bad advice. CWM Well, the water pipe should be bonded; it just shouldn't be used as a primary ground. I agree, the correct method would be to use grounding stakes (several) and ground the panel that way and then bond the water pipe to the panel (as well as installing bonding jumpers around the meter and the HWH) nate If talking about grounding electrodes, a water pipe with at least 10 foot of metal in contact with the earth has been required for a long time to be part of the grounding electrode system. Particularly with a municipal metal water supply system, the water service pipe will have a much lower resistance to ground than ground rods, which are "supplemental" electrodes (required only because a metal water service may become plastic in the future). Mentioned somewhere in this thread, a concrete encased electrode (Ufer ground) is now required in new construction that has footings, and is used in place of a ground rod. -- bud-- |
Knob & Tube and Cloth Shielded Wiring
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Knob & Tube and Cloth Shielded Wiring
Hello toAll...............As the original poster on the K&T and cloth wiring
questions I certainly appreciate all the input and observations. First when I sell the house I will definitely repost the results as requested. As to the insurance. I only purchased the house ( upstate NY) 5 years ago and I bought full fire/casualty/etc. insurance and had no problems insuring it. From what I've read here I certainly don't want to deal with State Farm in spite of their commercials. However, I am still unclear what changing to breaker panel does for me (with the exception that it will look more modern) if the current wiring still remains ungrounded. Also if I do run "green" wire to the current fuse panel ground and then change the receptacles to 3-prong will I now be in violation because the K&T and cloth would no longer have ungrounded 2-prong receptacles? Also because all the wiring is grandfathered and no work has been done to it the NYS real estate board says that this does NOT require to be disclosed as a major defect nor because someone says it is a major defect. The reason I checked this was that the (now fired) real estate woman who had decided to appoint herself as the authority on all things electrical and structural insisted I add the wiring as a MAJOR PROBLEM. Be all that as it may however, I would like to come up with a solution if there is one that wasn't just "tear it all out". I'd rather not spend 15% of the selling price just to say to a buyer look new panel. Once again thanks for all the input. John "John F. F." wrote in message ... I own a small second home (market value about $40,000) that I'm looking to sell It was built where knob and tube was apparently used as well as ungrounded cloth shielded cable . Appliances and hot water are gas; fridge and washer are electric. The house has a fuse panel with 4 circuits. An electrician hired by a potential buyer said : "to correct the ungrounded wiring to the existing receptacles and removal of the knob and tube wiring a complete rewiring of the residence would have to be done which would also increase the size of upgrading the electrical panel to 200 amps to accommodate more and newer circuits." No estimate was given for that work. This house is 900 sq. ft plus a full basement that is not useable due to moisture problems but gives easy access to the entire first floor. With 200 amps I can do the neighborhood! The electrician also told the buyer for $1,500. he would upgrade the current 60 amp fuse panel to 100 amp circuit breaker panel (I assume that would mean changing the house entry cable). The buyer wanted me to foot the bill for the new panel and the other work. I cancelled the contract. Numerous questions come to my mind: does this mean nothing in the house is grounded? What is the point of upgrading to a 100 amp circuit breaker panel if all the old wiring is still there and nothing is still grounded. And I guess a big question is can the existing k&t and/or the cloth cable somehow be grounded. Could I run a ground wire from each outlet (there are only 7) for example to the basement below and connect them to the incoming city water line All your knowledgeable input and suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks all. |
Knob & Tube and Cloth Shielded Wiring
John F. F. wrote: Hello toAll...............As the original poster on the K&T and cloth wiring questions I certainly appreciate all the input and observations. First when I sell the house I will definitely repost the results as requested. As to the insurance. I only purchased the house ( upstate NY) 5 years ago and I bought full fire/casualty/etc. insurance and had no problems insuring it. From what I've read here I certainly don't want to deal with State Farm in spite of their commercials. However, I am still unclear what changing to breaker panel does for me (with the exception that it will look more modern) if the current wiring still remains ungrounded. Also if I do run "green" wire to the current fuse panel ground and then change the receptacles to 3-prong will I now be in violation because the K&T and cloth would no longer have ungrounded 2-prong receptacles? Also because all the wiring is grandfathered and no work has been done to it the NYS real estate board says that this does NOT require to be disclosed as a major defect nor because someone says it is a major defect. The reason I checked this was that the (now fired) real estate woman who had decided to appoint herself as the authority on all things electrical and structural insisted I add the wiring as a MAJOR PROBLEM. Be all that as it may however, I would like to come up with a solution if there is one that wasn't just "tear it all out". I'd rather not spend 15% of the selling price just to say to a buyer look new panel. Once again thanks for all the input. John Few insurance companies will provide homeowners insurance for fuse boxes anymore, too many people say well a 15 amp blows, so make it a 20 amp, oh what the heck \ heres a 30:(. I have a good friend like that who has K&T and 30 amp fuses on 14 gauge wiring, one day his home will cease to exist:( Have you found a new realtor who doesnt call the wiring a problem? if a realtor knowling covers up or assists in covering up or is even part of this their agency can be sued or even lose their license. Just to play devils advocate you have only owned this home 5 years.... what about the 100 years previous? how can you be certain someone didnt muck with it? Having sold a home 2 years ago its horrible and I certinally wish you the best but fear any buyer you get will want the wiring replaced:( curious is your home priced much less than surrounding ones? 40 grand today is pretty cheap, in california the exact same home would likey be half a million bucks. |
Knob & Tube and Cloth Shielded Wiring
Once again your information is incorrect. "S" type fuse adapters can be
screwed into the plug fuse sockets and only the proper size fuse can be used. They are UL approved and happen to be safer in many respects that circuit breakers, and I'd rather doubt any insurance company would have an issue with them wrote in message ups.com... John F. F. wrote: Hello toAll...............As the original poster on the K&T and cloth wiring questions I certainly appreciate all the input and observations. First when I sell the house I will definitely repost the results as requested. As to the insurance. I only purchased the house ( upstate NY) 5 years ago and I bought full fire/casualty/etc. insurance and had no problems insuring it. From what I've read here I certainly don't want to deal with State Farm in spite of their commercials. However, I am still unclear what changing to breaker panel does for me (with the exception that it will look more modern) if the current wiring still remains ungrounded. Also if I do run "green" wire to the current fuse panel ground and then change the receptacles to 3-prong will I now be in violation because the K&T and cloth would no longer have ungrounded 2-prong receptacles? Also because all the wiring is grandfathered and no work has been done to it the NYS real estate board says that this does NOT require to be disclosed as a major defect nor because someone says it is a major defect. The reason I checked this was that the (now fired) real estate woman who had decided to appoint herself as the authority on all things electrical and structural insisted I add the wiring as a MAJOR PROBLEM. Be all that as it may however, I would like to come up with a solution if there is one that wasn't just "tear it all out". I'd rather not spend 15% of the selling price just to say to a buyer look new panel. Once again thanks for all the input. John Few insurance companies will provide homeowners insurance for fuse boxes anymore, too many people say well a 15 amp blows, so make it a 20 amp, oh what the heck \ heres a 30:(. I have a good friend like that who has K&T and 30 amp fuses on 14 gauge wiring, one day his home will cease to exist:( Have you found a new realtor who doesnt call the wiring a problem? if a realtor knowling covers up or assists in covering up or is even part of this their agency can be sued or even lose their license. Just to play devils advocate you have only owned this home 5 years.... what about the 100 years previous? how can you be certain someone didnt muck with it? Having sold a home 2 years ago its horrible and I certinally wish you the best but fear any buyer you get will want the wiring replaced:( curious is your home priced much less than surrounding ones? 40 grand today is pretty cheap, in california the exact same home would likey be half a million bucks. |
Knob & Tube and Cloth Shielded Wiring
Bud, thanks for the code correction, and the backup
Roy "Bud--" wrote in message ... Charlie Morgan wrote: On Sun, 3 Dec 2006 17:56:15 -0500, "RBM" rbm2(remove wrote: If you own a code book you can read section 250.131C It is illegal in all 50 states to use cold water pipes for ground. That has been true for many years. Cold water pipes should be bonded for safety, but they are not allowed as a point for grounding wiring. CWM Interesting you do not comment on RBM's code citation (which should actually be 250.130C). It explicitly permits attachment of a ground wire at "any accessible point on the grounding electrode system". That includes the first 5 feet of water pipe inside the building. RBM's statement is in acordance with the NEC. -- bud-- |
Knob & Tube and Cloth Shielded Wiring
RBM (remove this) wrote: Once again your information is incorrect. "S" type fuse adapters can be screwed into the plug fuse sockets and only the proper size fuse can be used. They are UL approved and happen to be safer in many respects that circuit breakers, and I'd rather doubt any insurance company would have an issue with them Again many insurance companies today wouldnt insure any home with a fuse box for NEW custonmers..... have you bothered to call some agents and ASK, getting some solid current info? curious what other things do you buy that has a lifetime of over 100 years like K&T wiring? |
Knob & Tube and Cloth Shielded Wiring
Charlie Morgan wrote:
On Sun, 3 Dec 2006 16:42:17 -0500, "RBM" rbm2(remove wrote: Let me clarify. You can connect it to your main cold water pipe within five feet of where it enters the building. You can also connect it to the fuse box or anything that is grounding the fuse box No you can't. Bad advice. CWM The gospel according to the US NEC is that you can. viz "250.130 Equipment Grounding Conductor Connections. Equipment grounding conductor connections at the source of separately derived systems shall be made in accordance with 250.30(A)(1). Equipment grounding conductor connections at service equipment shall be made as indicated in 250.130(A) or (B). For replacement of non–grounding-type receptacles with grounding-type receptacles and for branch-circuit extensions only in existing installations that do not have an equipment grounding conductor in the branch circuit, connections shall be permitted as indicated in 250.130(C). (C) Nongrounding Receptacle Replacement or Branch Circuit Extensions. The equipment grounding conductor of a grounding-type receptacle or a branch-circuit extension shall be permitted to be connected to any of the following: (1) Any accessible point on the grounding electrode system as described in 250.50 (2) Any accessible point on the grounding electrode conductor (3) The equipment grounding terminal bar within the enclosure where the branch circuit for the receptacle or branch circuit originates (4) For grounded systems, the grounded service conductor within the service equipment enclosure (5) For ungrounded systems, the grounding terminal bar within the service equipment enclosure" Copyright 2002 the National Fire Protection Association -- Tom Horne Well we aren't no thin blue heroes and yet we aren't no blackguards to. We're just working men and woman most remarkable like you. |
Knob & Tube and Cloth Shielded Wiring
Nate Nagel wrote:
Charlie Morgan wrote: On Sun, 3 Dec 2006 16:42:17 -0500, "RBM" rbm2(remove wrote: Let me clarify. You can connect it to your main cold water pipe within five feet of where it enters the building. You can also connect it to the fuse box or anything that is grounding the fuse box No you can't. Bad advice. CWM Well, the water pipe should be bonded; it just shouldn't be used as a primary ground. I agree, the correct method would be to use grounding stakes (several) and ground the panel that way and then bond the water pipe to the panel (as well as installing bonding jumpers around the meter and the HWH) nate Nate Explain this. The premise in question is served by a metallic water line lateral connected to an underground water system that stretches over several hundred square miles. No how many stakes; what we here call rods; will it take to have a better grounding electrode system; what you folks call an earthing array if I remember correctly; than that public water system. Hint it can't be done. -- Tom Horne "This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous for general use." Thomas Alva Edison |
Knob & Tube and Cloth Shielded Wiring
Charlie Morgan wrote:
On Sun, 03 Dec 2006 20:46:42 -0500, Nate Nagel wrote: Charlie Morgan wrote: On Sun, 3 Dec 2006 16:42:17 -0500, "RBM" rbm2(remove wrote: Let me clarify. You can connect it to your main cold water pipe within five feet of where it enters the building. You can also connect it to the fuse box or anything that is grounding the fuse box No you can't. Bad advice. CWM Well, the water pipe should be bonded; it just shouldn't be used as a primary ground. I agree, the correct method would be to use grounding stakes (several) and ground the panel that way and then bond the water pipe to the panel (as well as installing bonding jumpers around the meter and the HWH) nate Yes the water pipes should be bonded, but they are not to be used to provide ground for anything else. CWM Can you explain why the US National Electric Code requires the underground metallic water piping be used as part of the Grounding Electrode System? It does you know, even when the entire interior plumbing system is non metallic. -- Tom Horne Well we aren't no thin blue heroes and yet we aren't no blackguards to. We're just working men and woman most remarkable like you. |
Knob & Tube and Cloth Shielded Wiring
John F. F. wrote:
Hello toAll...............As the original poster on the K&T and cloth wiring questions I certainly appreciate all the input and observations. First when I sell the house I will definitely repost the results as requested. As to the insurance. I only purchased the house ( upstate NY) 5 years ago and I bought full fire/casualty/etc. insurance and had no problems insuring it. From what I've read here I certainly don't want to deal with State Farm in spite of their commercials. However, I am still unclear what changing to breaker panel does for me (with the exception that it will look more modern) In your case, since you are selling, some lending institutions (such as government backed loans) may require a minimum 100 amp service. Something to be aware of anyway, not that you should have it done now for that reason, but at least it won't be a surprise should it pop up during the sale. Many realtors have electrician's in there pocket just for such and prices tend to be higher simply because they know it's holding up the show and many people will just say "do it." Take the electrician who quoted you $1500(US) for an upgrade. IMO, for a 100 amp service, the bid is about $500 too high. In my area, for $1500 one can get a 200 amp service. Additionally, if you decide to upgrade, I would recommend no less than a 125 amp service because, should electric central heat or air be desired in the future, the service calc. usually comes in over 100 amps. if the current wiring still remains ungrounded. Upgrading the service will also allow new circuits to be added. The old fuse panels are usually only a Main/Range and 4 (circuits). K&T circuits are usually limited to 15 amps. Even with gas appliances, the kitchen should have a minimum of two 20 amp circuits. Window air conditioners sometimes create an overload situation on 15 amp circuits. With K&T/fuses the usual tendency for homeowners/tenants is to throw in larger fuses. Not good. In fact, electrician's are required by NEC to install Type "S" fuse adapters if they see evidence of fuse tampering. Also if I do run "green" wire to the current fuse panel ground and then change the receptacles to 3-prong will I now be in violation because the K&T and cloth would no longer have ungrounded 2-prong receptacles? No, that's the purpose of running the green wire, upgrading. An NEC accepted alternative is to install a GFCI at the first outlet, feed through it downstream and install regular 3 prong outlets on the rest of the circuit, marking them with the stickers that come with the GFCI receptacle as "no ground." IMO, it's a waste of time to install just a green wire. Whatever it takes to install Romex is going to be the same as installing just a green wire. You'll be glad that you spent the extra $300 for the Romex, plus you will be able to get in some needed kitchen circuits. Also because all the wiring is grandfathered and no work has been done to it the NYS real estate board says that this does NOT require to be disclosed as a major defect nor because someone says it is a major defect. The reason I checked this was that the (now fired) real estate woman who had decided to appoint herself as the authority on all things electrical and structural insisted I add the wiring as a MAJOR PROBLEM. Be all that as it may however, I would like to come up with a solution if there is one that wasn't just "tear it all out". I'd rather not spend 15% of the selling price just to say to a buyer look new panel. Once again thanks for all the input. John A good point made by another poster, if you have blown-in insulation, it results in a serious code violation with K&T....something many people are not aware of and salespeople tend to say nothing about. Also, you might want to take a peak in the attic and/or basement to see if the old cloth covered cable was spliced into the K&T without using boxes, another serious code violation. I know that you don't want to hear it, but IMHO, K&T and cloth covered cable has had it's day and the "phase out" has been extended by NEC long enough. |
Knob & Tube and Cloth Shielded Wiring
Tom Horne, Electrician wrote:
Nate Nagel wrote: Charlie Morgan wrote: On Sun, 3 Dec 2006 16:42:17 -0500, "RBM" rbm2(remove wrote: Let me clarify. You can connect it to your main cold water pipe within five feet of where it enters the building. You can also connect it to the fuse box or anything that is grounding the fuse box No you can't. Bad advice. CWM Well, the water pipe should be bonded; it just shouldn't be used as a primary ground. I agree, the correct method would be to use grounding stakes (several) and ground the panel that way and then bond the water pipe to the panel (as well as installing bonding jumpers around the meter and the HWH) nate Nate Explain this. The premise in question is served by a metallic water line lateral connected to an underground water system that stretches over several hundred square miles. No how many stakes; what we here call rods; will it take to have a better grounding electrode system; what you folks call an earthing array if I remember correctly; than that public water system. Hint it can't be done. redundancy, and also the ability to function "off grid" should the water service ever be replaced by a non-metallic pipe. nate -- replace "fly" with "com" to reply. http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel |
Knob & Tube and Cloth Shielded Wiring
wrote:
RBM (remove this) wrote: Once again your information is incorrect. "S" type fuse adapters can be screwed into the plug fuse sockets and only the proper size fuse can be used. They are UL approved and happen to be safer in many respects that circuit breakers, and I'd rather doubt any insurance company would have an issue with them Again many insurance companies today wouldnt insure any home with a fuse box for NEW custonmers..... have you bothered to call some agents and ASK, getting some solid current info? curious what other things do you buy that has a lifetime of over 100 years like K&T wiring? I prefer to buy very little that doesn't look like it could last 100 years if it had to! I don't understand our throwaway society... nate -- replace "fly" with "com" to reply. http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel |
Knob & Tube and Cloth Shielded Wiring
A good point made by another poster, if you have blown-in insulation, it results in a serious code violation with K&T....something many people are not aware of and salespeople tend to say nothing about. Also, you might want to take a peak in the attic and/or basement to see if the old cloth covered cable was spliced into the K&T without using boxes, another serious code violation. I know that you don't want to hear it, but IMHO, K&T and cloth covered cable has had it's day and the "phase out" has been extended by NEC long enough. around here pittsburgh area all K&T is boxless:( it was spliced inside the wall with no boxes, then covered over by wood lathe and plaster so a overheated connection can cause a fire, and insulation just makes it worse. NOTHING lasts forever and what else do YOU own that lasts over a 100 years? people think nothing of a new car every 5 years, for dependability and safety. that would be 20 vehicles in a hundred years. at a very consertive 10 grand a year $200,000.......... meanwhile some get upset over spending a few grand........ I had a friend shopping for a home, it was a $100,000 but the K&T HAD to go to get a mortage. the seller refused the 5 grand credit and my friend bought a different home. the housing market cooled while the home went thru three realtors.:( the home finally sold for 85 grand, clearly the seller made a bad choice.. cost him over a year and 10 grand. I HOPE the OP gets his price and a quick sale........ |
Knob & Tube and Cloth Shielded Wiring
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Knob & Tube and Cloth Shielded Wiring
John F. F. wrote: Hello toAll...............As the original poster on the K&T and cloth wiring questions I certainly appreciate all the input and observations. ... ... I am still unclear what changing to breaker panel does for me ... Smart man! :) It does nothing truly useful although it _might_ have a cosmetic effect of influencing a potential buyer simply owing to the new look, particularly for an individual with little or no technical knowledge or first-time owner. OTOH, there are a lot of folks who buy houses essentially on nothing more than whether it just appeals to them. ...run "green" wire to the current fuse panel ground and then change the receptacles to 3-prong will I now be in violation because the K&T and cloth would no longer have ungrounded 2-prong receptacles? Also because all the wiring is grandfathered and no work has been done to it the NYS real estate board says that this does NOT require to be disclosed as a major defect nor because someone says it is a major defect. The reason I checked this was that the (now fired) real estate woman who had decided to appoint herself as the authority on all things electrical and structural insisted I add the wiring as a MAJOR PROBLEM. Be all that as it may however, I would like to come up with a solution if there is one that wasn't just "tear it all out". I'd rather not spend 15% of the selling price just to say to a buyer look new panel. Once again thanks for all the input. John My suggestion would be to first, ignore hallerb's ranting about absolute uninsurability -- he brings this windmill out to joust against at every opportunity. There _may_ be a problem in his area, but I frankly would be surprised that even there it would be nearly as widespread as he wants to make it appear and there probably was some specific issue behind the anectdotal "evidence" rather than a full proscription. But, that's also conjecture on my part, based on what is the general rule here. None of the houses in the local "Old Town Revitalization District" project have been denied homeowners' insurance nor mortgages for existing K&T wiring that met (grandfathered) code requirements and was otherwise not defective. I know something of this having served on the OTRD board the last several years. In fact, as someone else noted, in only an instance or two am I aware that underwriters even asked for more than the basic square footage, frame/brick, wood/composition/other roofing, etc., kind of checklist questions and a general overview of the house condition for full coverage. As for adding grounded outlets, again I'd suggest doing nothing unless a prospective buyer wants to make it a condition, and then consider it a negotiating point. Someone else w/ electrician credentials already noted in another response the use of a GFCI outlet as the first on a circuit -- that would be my suggestion of how to proceed if really were interested in doing it as a preemptive strike sort of thing. As for disclosure, every state has its own rules on what must be disclosed, and some localities may have additional as well, but those are documented by statute and there will be forms available that meet those legal obligations. Beyond what is specifically listed on the forms I would not venture. I don't recommend trying to "hide" anything, but there is no obligation, legal or moral, to make a problem out of a molehill or to create the impression of a deficiency or defect where none exists. That K&T wiring is obsolete for new construction is _NOT_ the issue and to confuse that with the requirement to be open and complete in disclosure is simply a case of comparing apples and oranges for a common metaphor. Also, remember that real estate agents are not really, fundamentally, working for you -- they're actually working for the buyer in most transactions. Again, disclosure and rules of representation vary by state and locality and in some instances even with the actual title with which the agent represents him/herself. Be sure you are aware of those rules so that you understand the motives and obligations driving the agent -- you may find yourself surprised by what the rules actually say in that regard. In this case, it does sound as though you found one who was going out to make a better bargain for her prospective buyer in order to try to close a deal and get the smaller commission sooner rather than hope for a few hundred dollars more later with more time invested on her part. Similar caveats hold for inspectors, of course, and I would be particularly wary of those brought in by a realtor in behalf of the purchaser -- they are beholden to the realtor and are not working in your behalf. I'll throw in another -- someone else already mentioned the _independent_ appraisal, I'll add it could be worthwhile to get an inspection done on your behalf as well to have as a comparative standard for potential buyers or, if provided it up front, some potential buyers might even accept it. In doing this, of course, you'll want to ensure up front that the inspector you hire doesn't have a personal bias against K&T as some I've run across have seemed to have been taught from the hallerb school and simply check it off as a "problem" as opposed to actually inspecting it for condition/compliance, etc. And, lastly, never go into a major obligation/transaction without getting legal review of documents if there's anything whatsoever that seems suspicious regarding clauses of responsibility or other riders other than a clean transfer of deed. Some buyers recently are attempting to attach all sorts of strings on hidden faults, etc., that can spring up even years later -- you want to be certain, particularly on an older home, that "when it's gone, it's gone." For this reason, again, be sure you disclosures are full and complete and meet the letter of the laws in your jurisdiction but make no representation beyond that, either good or bad. "John F. F." wrote in message ... I own a small second home (market value about $40,000) that I'm looking to sell It was built where knob and tube was apparently used as well as ungrounded cloth shielded cable . Appliances and hot water are gas; fridge and washer are electric. The house has a fuse panel with 4 circuits. An electrician hired by a potential buyer said : "to correct the ungrounded wiring to the existing receptacles and removal of the knob and tube wiring a complete rewiring of the residence would have to be done which would also increase the size of upgrading the electrical panel to 200 amps to accommodate more and newer circuits." No estimate was given for that work. This house is 900 sq. ft plus a full basement that is not useable due to moisture problems but gives easy access to the entire first floor. With 200 amps I can do the neighborhood! The electrician also told the buyer for $1,500. he would upgrade the current 60 amp fuse panel to 100 amp circuit breaker panel (I assume that would mean changing the house entry cable). The buyer wanted me to foot the bill for the new panel and the other work. I cancelled the contract. Numerous questions come to my mind: does this mean nothing in the house is grounded? What is the point of upgrading to a 100 amp circuit breaker panel if all the old wiring is still there and nothing is still grounded. And I guess a big question is can the existing k&t and/or the cloth cable somehow be grounded. Could I run a ground wire from each outlet (there are only 7) for example to the basement below and connect them to the incoming city water line All your knowledgeable input and suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks all. |
Knob & Tube and Cloth Shielded Wiring
Also, remember that real estate agents are not really, fundamentally, working for you -- they're actually working for the buyer in most transactions. Sorry WRONG agents work for the SELLER unless they are specifically retained as BUYERS AGENTS and in that case a different agent has to represent the seller. Amazing how much confusion on this. |
Knob & Tube and Cloth Shielded Wiring
Charlie Morgan wrote:
On Mon, 04 Dec 2006 10:22:50 -0600, Bud-- wrote: Charlie Morgan wrote: On Sun, 3 Dec 2006 17:56:15 -0500, "RBM" rbm2(remove wrote: If you own a code book you can read section 250.131C It is illegal in all 50 states to use cold water pipes for ground. That has been true for many years. Cold water pipes should be bonded for safety, but they are not allowed as a point for grounding wiring. CWM Interesting you do not comment on RBM's code citation (which should actually be 250.130C). It explicitly permits attachment of a ground wire at "any accessible point on the grounding electrode system". That includes the first 5 feet of water pipe inside the building. RBM's statement is in acordance with the NEC. Incorrect interpretation. You need to take what the code says as a whole, not just select snippets without context. If you have your own well, you "might" be able to do that, and get it past an inspector, but if a water meter exists between that pipe and the part buried in the earth, you cannot. The pipe, if used, must be unbroken for a length of at least 10 feet in the earth and enter the houase without any breaks, joints, or devices in line. CWM If the water service pipe has 10 foot or more metal in contact with the earth it is required to be used as a grounding electrode, and the electrode connection may be made anywhere within 5 feet of the entrance. The water meter is required to be bonded. Ground wires discussed may be connected in the same 5 foot distance from the entrance point, as permitted in 250.130C. Grounds for phone and other communications protectors may be connected in the same 5 foot span, as for instance in 800.100B. RBM's statement should be narrowed to the extent that if there is not 10 ft metal in contact with the earth the water pipe can't be used for other grounds, as discussed. These are not code snippets without context. You have not provided any "code snippets" supporting your view. And you are arguing with 3 electricians (including Thomas Horne). -- bud-- |
Knob & Tube and Cloth Shielded Wiring
He'll never admit he's wrong. You might as well give up.
-- Steve Barker "Thomas D. Horne, FF EMT" wrote in message ink.net... Can you explain why the US National Electric Code requires the underground metallic water piping be used as part of the Grounding Electrode System? It does you know, even when the entire interior plumbing system is non metallic. -- Tom Horne Well we aren't no thin blue heroes and yet we aren't no blackguards to. We're just working men and woman most remarkable like you. |
Knob & Tube and Cloth Shielded Wiring
Bud-- wrote: These are not code snippets without context. You have not provided any "code snippets" supporting your view. And you are arguing with 3 electricians (including Thomas Horne). Make that 4. |
Knob & Tube and Cloth Shielded Wiring
Charlie Morgan wrote:
You are simply wrong. The NEC agrees with me. Its dangerous and illegal to use cold water pipes for a ground, and has been for many years. You are a twit. The CEC on the other hand explicitly allows (and in some cases mandates) grounding via metal cold water pipe. In fact, if you have at least 10ft metal piping buried deep enough then it *must* be used as the service grounding electrode. This is acceptable without any additional artificial electrodes. If the above is not available, we can also use a metal well casing, ground rods (at least 2), or concrete encased electrode under the building footings. Chris |
Knob & Tube and Cloth Shielded Wiring
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Knob & Tube and Cloth Shielded Wiring
Thanks to you for the point by point reply and RBM and all . I will check
the points you make about splices and such but I haven't seen any evidence of it. John "volts500" wrote in message ups.com... John F. F. wrote: Hello toAll...............As the original poster on the K&T and cloth wiring questions I certainly appreciate all the input and observations. First when I sell the house I will definitely repost the results as requested. As to the insurance. I only purchased the house ( upstate NY) 5 years ago and I bought full fire/casualty/etc. insurance and had no problems insuring it. From what I've read here I certainly don't want to deal with State Farm in spite of their commercials. However, I am still unclear what changing to breaker panel does for me (with the exception that it will look more modern) In your case, since you are selling, some lending institutions (such as government backed loans) may require a minimum 100 amp service. Something to be aware of anyway, not that you should have it done now for that reason, but at least it won't be a surprise should it pop up during the sale. Many realtors have electrician's in there pocket just for such and prices tend to be higher simply because they know it's holding up the show and many people will just say "do it." Take the electrician who quoted you $1500(US) for an upgrade. IMO, for a 100 amp service, the bid is about $500 too high. In my area, for $1500 one can get a 200 amp service. Additionally, if you decide to upgrade, I would recommend no less than a 125 amp service because, should electric central heat or air be desired in the future, the service calc. usually comes in over 100 amps. if the current wiring still remains ungrounded. Upgrading the service will also allow new circuits to be added. The old fuse panels are usually only a Main/Range and 4 (circuits). K&T circuits are usually limited to 15 amps. Even with gas appliances, the kitchen should have a minimum of two 20 amp circuits. Window air conditioners sometimes create an overload situation on 15 amp circuits. With K&T/fuses the usual tendency for homeowners/tenants is to throw in larger fuses. Not good. In fact, electrician's are required by NEC to install Type "S" fuse adapters if they see evidence of fuse tampering. Also if I do run "green" wire to the current fuse panel ground and then change the receptacles to 3-prong will I now be in violation because the K&T and cloth would no longer have ungrounded 2-prong receptacles? No, that's the purpose of running the green wire, upgrading. An NEC accepted alternative is to install a GFCI at the first outlet, feed through it downstream and install regular 3 prong outlets on the rest of the circuit, marking them with the stickers that come with the GFCI receptacle as "no ground." IMO, it's a waste of time to install just a green wire. Whatever it takes to install Romex is going to be the same as installing just a green wire. You'll be glad that you spent the extra $300 for the Romex, plus you will be able to get in some needed kitchen circuits. Also because all the wiring is grandfathered and no work has been done to it the NYS real estate board says that this does NOT require to be disclosed as a major defect nor because someone says it is a major defect. The reason I checked this was that the (now fired) real estate woman who had decided to appoint herself as the authority on all things electrical and structural insisted I add the wiring as a MAJOR PROBLEM. Be all that as it may however, I would like to come up with a solution if there is one that wasn't just "tear it all out". I'd rather not spend 15% of the selling price just to say to a buyer look new panel. Once again thanks for all the input. John A good point made by another poster, if you have blown-in insulation, it results in a serious code violation with K&T....something many people are not aware of and salespeople tend to say nothing about. Also, you might want to take a peak in the attic and/or basement to see if the old cloth covered cable was spliced into the K&T without using boxes, another serious code violation. I know that you don't want to hear it, but IMHO, K&T and cloth covered cable has had it's day and the "phase out" has been extended by NEC long enough. |
Knob & Tube and Cloth Shielded Wiring
dpb wrote: wrote: Also, remember that real estate agents are not really, fundamentally, working for you -- they're actually working for the buyer in most transactions. Sorry WRONG agents work for the SELLER unless they are specifically retained as BUYERS AGENTS and in that case a different agent has to represent the seller. Actually, I did word what I intended incorrectly by using the phrase "real estate agent" as that does have a specific connotation. What I intended was simply "agent" as there are buyers' and sellers' agents as you note. However, it is not true that in every locale a different agent must represent seller/buyer -- there are many jurisdictions for which that still isn't a requirement although as far as I know, they are required to reveal that (although in TN as one example, the disclosure was pretty much hidden in the fine print and you had to dig through all the contract "legalese" in order to get to it -- it wasn't required to be "disclosed" as an upfront listing of "how I am paid" kinds of things as in a disclosure form. Amazing how much confusion on this. That's true, and the key thing is that every state has laws and rules that are not the same everywhere so there is an understandable reason for the confusion -- it is very easy to take one's experience from a particular place and assume it is applicable elsewhere, but that just "ain't necessarily so"... nearly everywhere the agents comission comes out of sellers proceeds, and in PA all agewnts work for the seller unless otherwise specified. Reality is agents skirt a fine line to get as many sales as possible, since the depend on comissions.... selling a home today is the pits, what with home inspectors, demanding buyers, pushy mortage companies, many people with poor credit, the list in endless......... |
Knob & Tube and Cloth Shielded Wiring
Just so you know the K&T insurance issue is true heres a paste from
another board discussing it. I have NO connection with anything there, and put some of this up as a reference to insurance rules today! As you can see insurance has become picky recently.... --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Homeowners Insurance and Knob-and-Tube Wiring... clip this post email this post what is this? see most clipped and recent clippings Posted by Jerry_in_OC_MD (My Page) on Tue, Nov 8, 05 at 16:55 We had the home inspection on the 1920 "Dutch Colonial Revival" that we are in the process of purchasing. The Inspector had a lot of concerns about the knob and tube wiring in the house. Some, but not all of the electric is updated. He recommended that we (or preferably the seller) have the wiring inspected and safety tested by an licensed electrician before we take possession of the house. He mentioned that it might be tough to get a homeowners policy with the electric in it's current state. Has anyone else had difficulty getting an insurance policy for their home because of knob-and-tube? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Follow-Up Postings: Homeowners Insurance and Knob-and-Tube Wiring... clip this post email this post what is this? see most clipped and recent clippings Posted by homemaker (My Page) on Tue, Nov 8, 05 at 18:11 Here in Ontario, if you have an existing policy, most insurers will cover a newly purchased home with knob & tube wiring, and give you 30-60 days to disconnect and replace it. This is a fairly recent change, for a couple of years, it was nigh on impossible to get insurance for any house with knob & tube unless it was with a high risk company. First time home buyers are having more luck these days, but it often means wearing out your dialing finger. Having an electrical certificate stating that the wiring is safe and adequate and also advising what percentage of the wiring is knob & tube may help. If you have home insurance now, check with your current broker to see how your company deals with knob & tube issues. Hope this helps. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Homeowners Insurance and Knob-and-Tube Wiring... clip this post email this post what is this? see most clipped and recent clippings Posted by joed (My Page) on Tue, Nov 8, 05 at 19:00 Here in Ontario I know of at least one person who was forced to replace their K&T or their insurance would not renew. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Homeowners Insurance and Knob-and-Tube Wiring... clip this post email this post what is this? see most clipped and recent clippings Posted by homemaker (My Page) on Tue, Nov 8, 05 at 21:49 I should have been clearer. Most insurers here will not take on a home with knob & tube, or keep an existing property with K & T unless it is disconnected and replaced within 30-60 days. The only exceptions I know of have been elderly folks who really don't use much power and tend to have no computers, VCR's, microwaves, and who live much more simply than those of us with all kinds of fancy appliances and toys. Electrician's letters advising that the wiring is safe and adequate for the senior have satisfied many insurance companies. Makes it tough for those buying the house if it's sold though. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Homeowners Insurance and Knob-and-Tube Wiring... clip this post email this post what is this? see most clipped and recent clippings Posted by bas157 (My Page) on Tue, Nov 8, 05 at 22:06 When I bought my house, USAA (insurance company) wanted to see the home inspection report, which pictured some knob and tube wiring. They wanted it replaced until I showed them better pictures which clearly show the wiring was just a few pieces and the knobs, obviously hooked up. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Homeowners Insurance and Knob-and-Tube Wiring... clip this post email this post what is this? see most clipped and recent clippings Posted by kennf (My Page) on Wed, Nov 9, 05 at 14:21 Other than insurance, the other problem with K&T is that you aren't supposed to insulate over it. So if you want to insulate the attic better than 1920s standards, you may be out of luck. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Homeowners Insurance and Knob-and-Tube Wiring... clip this post email this post what is this? see most clipped and recent clippings Posted by Vermonster (My Page) on Wed, Nov 9, 05 at 14:45 We were unable to get homeowners insurance with knob and tube energized. Agreed to de-energize circuit and update. Policy is through Vermont Mutual. VT -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Homeowners Insurance and Knob-and-Tube Wiring... clip this post email this post what is this? see most clipped and recent clippings Posted by NancyLouise (My Page) on Thu, Nov 10, 05 at 8:01 We have a 100 year old home. When we recently switched insurance companies, during the inspection one of the first questions the inspector asked was if there was any K & T wiring. Luckily there wasn't. It is a very real safety concern. I believe it may be more difficult to get insurance because of it. Perhaps you can have monies taken off the asking price of the home to get the home's wiring up to code. It can't hurt to ask. NancyLouise -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Homeowners Insurance and Knob-and-Tube Wiring... clip this post email this post what is this? see most clipped and recent clippings Posted by Mom1993 (My Page) on Thu, Nov 10, 05 at 15:00 We own a 1920's house, had all original K&T wiring. Amica (who we have used for 15 years) wouldn't insure the house - Fireman's fund would. We are replacing almost all of the original electrical...Good luck! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Homeowners Insurance and Knob-and-Tube Wiring... clip this post email this post what is this? see most clipped and recent clippings Posted by athomein1914 (My Page) on Fri, Nov 11, 05 at 20:36 Our house was almost entirely knob & tube when purchased and we had no trouble insuring. (Allstate) We've since rewired to code and insulated the attic. There was zero insulation when we purchased our home. Another insurance issue we've run into is insuring for replacement of the historic home we have as opposed to a flat rate per square foot. I find there is tremendous variation among insurance companies, and among policies, and every so often I call around to update myself and my home. You can insure beyond the "standard" to protect your not-so-standard home. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Homeowners Insurance and Knob-and-Tube Wiring... clip this post email this post what is this? see most clipped and recent clippings Posted by terryr (My Page) on Sun, Nov 13, 05 at 16:44 We have Grange Insurance on an 1896 house. They didn't ask us about knob & tube, only about fuses vs. circuit breaker. We had 90 days to upgrade to a CB. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Homeowners Insurance and Knob-and-Tube Wiring... clip this post email this post what is this? see most clipped and recent clippings Posted by Bella_Design (My Page) on Mon, Nov 14, 05 at 23:23 I have a 1918 house in TN. It has some K&T in it as well. The main breaker had two 100 amp fuses in it and was able to insure it with the condition that I replace the fuse box with a circuit breaker, but none of the wiring was a problem. The thing I had the most problem with was that it is partially asbestos sided. Try Erie Insurance if they are available in your area. |
Knob & Tube and Cloth Shielded Wiring
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Knob & Tube and Cloth Shielded Wiring
Charlie Morgan wrote: On 5 Dec 2006 09:23:32 -0800, "volts500" wrote: Bud-- wrote: These are not code snippets without context. You have not provided any "code snippets" supporting your view. And you are arguing with 3 electricians (including Thomas Horne). Make that 4. This is turning out to be quite a black eye for the profession! CWM You're a funny guy Charlie! If you don't believe 4 electricians with a combined experience of over 100 years, will you believe a certified electrical inspector? If so, go ask him: http://www.selfhelpandmore.com/homewiringusa/index.htm If you don't believe him, then try alt.engineering.electrical |
Knob & Tube and Cloth Shielded Wiring
Chris Friesen wrote:
Charlie Morgan wrote: You are simply wrong. The NEC agrees with me. Its dangerous and illegal to use cold water pipes for a ground, and has been for many years. You are a twit. The CEC on the other hand explicitly allows (and in some cases mandates) grounding via metal cold water pipe. In fact, if you have at least 10ft metal piping buried deep enough then it *must* be used as the service grounding electrode. This is acceptable without any additional artificial electrodes. If the above is not available, we can also use a metal well casing, ground rods (at least 2), or concrete encased electrode under the building footings. Chris Contrary to Charlie, the US-NEC rule is almost identical. The depth ("deep enough") doesn't matter. And the NEC requires a "supplemental" electrode only because a metal underground water pipe may be replaed by plastic at some time in the future. The NEC does not generally allow connecting grounds to water pipes except within 5 feet of the water service entrance, which may be what Charlie is picking up. -- bud-- |
Knob & Tube and Cloth Shielded Wiring
On Sun, 03 Dec 2006 19:00:43 GMT, "John F. F."
wrote: I own a small second home (market value about $40,000) that I'm Cheap house for sale looking to sell It was built where knob and tube was apparently used as Men used to have knobs but not no more. Men are knobless wimps these days, and none of them use tubes anymore either. well as ungrounded cloth shielded cable . Appliances and hot water are gas; fridge and washer are electric. The house has a fuse panel with 4 circuits. Dont light that fuse An electrician hired by a potential buyer said : "to correct the ungrounded This message is too long........ Fuggitt complete rewiring of the residence would have to be done which would also increase the size of upgrading the electrical panel to 200 circuits." No estimate was given for that work. This house is 900 years old. ft plus a full basement that is not useable due to moisture to a 100 old wiring is still there and nothing is still grounded. And I guess somehow be grounded. Could I run from a ground wire? from each outlet (there are only 7) for example to the basement below and connect them to the incoming city water line All your knowledgeable input and suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks all. |
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