Replacement screws for a GE panel
 

On Monday, September 5, 2016 at 2:31:31 PM UTC-5, Diesel wrote:
trader_4
Sun, 04
Sep 2016 12:06:38 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote:

On Sunday, September 4, 2016 at 2:34:21 AM UTC-4, Zak W wrote:
Diesel wrote in news:XnsA678BD119EBC1F7D9A8
@dieselpower.eternal-september.org:

Another code change is the way the receptacle is supposed to
face you. Ground pin up now. The reason being I was told.. In
case someone has metal things hanging from the wall, if one
should happen to come loose and side down the wall between the
plug and the outlet,it'll hit the ground pin and most likely,
neutral; no short circuit condition. And, if it does hit the
hot wire, it's going to send it right to ground. This all
assumes two things: Someone has something plugged into the
outlet and they have a metal poster of some kind also hanging
on the wall above this same outlet.

A perfect example of bull**** electrical code changes.

Actually, I think it's a perfect example of BS period. Can
someone point us the the NEC code section that says a receptacle
must go in ground pin up?

Do you find yourself arguing with inspectors often? I wonder if I've
had the pleasure of working with people of your mindset before. If
so, you're the type of person who ****es that inspector off and makes
more, unnecessary (imho) work for us.

We have several inspectors in this area insisting (a polite way to
put it) that we install them ground pin up due to some local code
(that nobody can quote me) they are enforcing. As they have the final
say over the inspection, Myself and the rest of the crew tend to do
what they want us to do. We're just the electricians, not that high
up the totem pole.
--


Electrician 101: Never, never argue with the electrical inspector or inspection service. If you believe you are being told to do something egregiously wrong that endangers the lives of others, you can always type it up and take it to the engineering department in the jurisdiction you're working in and get the boss to sign it. If it's something minor that's not really life threatening, just do it and the fact that the inspector signs off on it should be enough to protect you. If you get a reputation of arguing with inspectors, they will nit pick and frack with you on every job you do in their jurisdiction. They might even tell the inspectors in other jurisdictions that you are a trouble maker. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Inspector Monster

Replacement screws for a GE panel
 

On Monday, September 5, 2016 at 3:55:41 PM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Monday, September 5, 2016 at 3:31:31 PM UTC-4, Diesel wrote:

As they have the final
say over the inspection, Myself and the rest of the crew tend to do
what they want us to do. We're just the electricians, not that high
up the totem pole.


That's fine. But I would think you'd realize that there is a difference
between some local inspectors enforcing something that they can't even site
and a NEC code change that effects much of the whole country. And I'd
hope you wouldn't go around posting about a "code change", when you
now say that so far even the inspectors making you put outlets in
ground pin up, can't site the code behind it.

You enjoy chastising...but clearly don't know how inspectors work, right or wrong. We had a state inspector/engineer who said we had to remove a block wall that supported an over-hang at a back entrance. Fire Code says the roof has to be 4 ft or more to require sprinkler coverage...this was 3 ft. My regional maintenance supervisor did not want to fight it! We contracted to have a tubular pillar put in. That engineer became the chief engineer for the state! (Yes, I know this is fire code and not electrical code)

Replacement screws for a GE panel
 

trader_4
Mon, 05
Sep 2016 21:05:00 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote:

I wouldn't be laughing if I were you. You made a post that there
has been a "code change" that now requires receptacles to go in
ground pin up.

That I did. I should have been very clear, concerning the code change
as being local as opposed to NEC. AFAIK, new NEC code doesn't come
out until 2017...so it couldn't really have been a new NEC code
already being enforced. Lemme rephrase, I've never heard of that
happening before.

implies that it's an NEC code change, which is why I said I was
skeptical and asked if anyone has an NEC cite. Now you have now
switched to some inspectors requiring this locally, but unable to
give you any cite to anything that has it in the code.

I didn't switch to anything, I just neglected (my bad) to specify
that I was talking about a local code, not an NEC code. I don't know
of any specific NEC code that specifies it, either way.

Granted, I should have been much more specific on exactly what I was
writing about so as not to cause any misconceptions or give the
impression I was intentionally trying to mislead anyone. That was my
bad.

I'm not too sure about the conveyed attitude with your usage of the
word switched in the context it was used by you, either...It gives me
the impression you're trying to pull a sly BD on me. As you may not
get the reference, I'll explain it...

BD is an individual who will, intentionally, write things in such a
way as to imply that you're lying/bull****ting/making something up
OR! that you've done something you haven't or vice versa. All without
actually stating as such in words, directly. He does this to prevent
responses on a point by point basis disputing whatever inferred
claims he's made towards the poster.

I'm not inferring you're actually doing this, but, it is the
impression I've gotten with the limited interaction I've had with
you. And, I certainly could be wrong concerning it.

If you're an electrician, you don't have access to the local codes?

Of course I do. I'm not sure why you think one would need to be an
Electrician to have access to them, though. AFAIK, Anyone can get
them by checking online and/or (in some cases, it's or here) going to
the city office (City hall in kingsports case) building. In some
cases, the courthouse, and in a couple of other cases, the local
power company is the place you go. Just depends what county/city you
happen to have the pleasure of working in.

The local codes are subject to the state/city/county you're working
in too. Maybe where you live, You have only one inspector and one set
of codes for the entire state? And you work only within that state?

We travel here and work in different cities and counties within TN
and VA. As a result, we have the lovely pleasure (sarcasm? surely you
jest) of interacting with several different inspectors and several
(slight) variations on state/city/county codes.

note, I'm not saying you should argue with the inspector, only
that when you post here that code now requires that receptacles go
in ground pin up, it's misleading if it's just some local
inspectors and you can't even find it in code anywhere.

Again, I didn't intend to mislead anyone. I should! have specified,
local code (and that too depends on where we're working) Basically
out here, whatever the inspector says must be done, we do it.

I questioned one once about the ground pin thing, because, I had to
redo the whole damn house if he was serious about it. He was, and, I
did. I've since learned to check about it if at all possible unless
I've already worked in that area recently enough to think i'm still
okay on the code with them. I don't like doing things over again. I
don't like making extra work for myself, I have enough real work to
do.

And IDK what's going on in NH, but I agree with Rafters that the
flat cables I've seen are going to be a mess when used upside
down. More people will probably get hurt tripping over those
cables then were ever hurt from a metal plate somehow falling down
onto outlet pins. I've tripped over cords, I've never had a metal
plate fall and short out a plug before.

I agree with yourself and rafters on this 100%, it was the same
'discussion' point I had with one particular inspector. It didn't
make any difference to him, ground pin up it was to be. I don't
question them when they tell me to do something a specific way
anymore. I learned my lesson already.




--
MID:
Hmmm. I most certainly don't understand how I can access a copy of a
zip file but then not be able to unzip it so I can watch it. That
seems VERY clever!
http://al.howardknight.net/msgid.cgi?ID=145716711400

Replacement screws for a GE panel
 

trader_4
Mon, 05
Sep 2016 20:55:37 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote:

In AHR when people say there has been an electrical "code
change", it implies that it's an NEC change. You must have meant
that too, otherwise it's pretty much pointless to just tell
everyone here that there has been a code change if that code
change has only made in your little burg somewhere and you don't
even say where that is. What relevance does it have to the rest of
us if it's not a new NEC code most places then adopt?

I didn't intend to imply any NEC code change when I wrote the initial
statement describing the stupidity (just my own personal opinion) of
the local code in several places I've been in my little 'burg' of
TN/VA. Sorry for not making that absolutely clear in the initial
post.

Btw, if you ever get the chance to visit Mountain City and/or New
Tazwell, pass. Everything closes at 9pm around there. Can't even find
a nice tasty burger when you're done working for the day if you don't
make it someplace before 9pm (est time)

And both places look like something from a time capsule sealed up in
the 1950s. [g]

So now apparently it's not even all the inspectors in your area,
but just some. They can't be much of an inspector if they can't
site the code that they are enforcing.

It depends on what you define an area as. I work in TN/VA.. so...

I said 'some' as depending on what state/city/county I'm doing work
in, I may not have to put the outlets ground pin up. When we grab the
permits, we do a local code check to see if that state/city/county
specifically wants them up, or, doesn't care. And, we act
accordingly. Whenever possible.

That's fine. But I would think you'd realize that there is a
difference between some local inspectors enforcing something that
they can't even site and a NEC code change that effects much of
the whole country.

I do. I also know that even if i'm right on something, I'm not going
to argue with the inspector. Him Big Chief/, I little indian. I know
my place.

And I'd hope you wouldn't go around posting about a "code change",
when you now say that so far even the inspectors making you put
outlets in ground pin up, can't site the code behind it.

If I do post about something wonky concerning electrical code and I
can't find anything from NEC covering it, I will specify local code
in the future. I don't know for sure that they (the inspector)
couldn't pull something out of their arse if they wanted to do so, I
don't press the issue. Especially when the inspector is already in a
bad mood from another job site unrelated to mine.


--
MID:
Hmmm. I most certainly don't understand how I can access a copy of a
zip file but then not be able to unzip it so I can watch it. That
seems VERY clever!
http://al.howardknight.net/msgid.cgi?ID=145716711400

Replacement screws for a GE panel
 

On Monday, September 5, 2016 at 6:31:28 PM UTC-4, bob_villa wrote:
On Monday, September 5, 2016 at 3:55:41 PM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Monday, September 5, 2016 at 3:31:31 PM UTC-4, Diesel wrote:

As they have the final
say over the inspection, Myself and the rest of the crew tend to do
what they want us to do. We're just the electricians, not that high
up the totem pole.


That's fine. But I would think you'd realize that there is a difference
between some local inspectors enforcing something that they can't even site
and a NEC code change that effects much of the whole country. And I'd
hope you wouldn't go around posting about a "code change", when you
now say that so far even the inspectors making you put outlets in
ground pin up, can't site the code behind it.

You enjoy chastising...but clearly don't know how inspectors work, right or wrong. We had a state inspector/engineer who said we had to remove a block wall that supported an over-hang at a back entrance. Fire Code says the roof has to be 4 ft or more to require sprinkler coverage...this was 3 ft. My regional maintenance supervisor did not want to fight it! We contracted to have a tubular pillar put in. That engineer became the chief engineer for the state! (Yes, I know this is fire code and not electrical code)

As usual, you chime in and don't know WTF you're talking about. I never
said or implied anything about how inspectors work or don't work. I didn't
tell Diesel to argue with the inspector. My point was that when you make
a post that the "code" has been changed so that it now requires receptacles
be installed ground pin up, and you don't make any reference to a location
or local code, it
implies that the NEC has been changed. It's like people posting here
that the code now requires AFCI in most of the living space. That's
true, because the NEC has been changed. In the case of the ground pin
up, from what Diesel is now saying this is something that some of the
local inspectors he deals with are requiring, but they can't cite any
code to back it up. According to you I should have just shut up so that
people reading it think that this is "code" like AFCIs, etc and that it
probably applies to them, when so far no one can even cite the code?
And I'm about 99.9% sure it's not in NEC. If this were an NEC thing,
widely adopted, it would be all over the internet. It's not.

Replacement screws for a GE panel
 

trader_4 was thinking very hard :
On Monday, September 5, 2016 at 6:31:28 PM UTC-4, bob_villa wrote:
On Monday, September 5, 2016 at 3:55:41 PM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Monday, September 5, 2016 at 3:31:31 PM UTC-4, Diesel wrote:
As they have the final
say over the inspection, Myself and the rest of the crew tend to do
what they want us to do. We're just the electricians, not that high
up the totem pole.


That's fine. But I would think you'd realize that there is a difference
between some local inspectors enforcing something that they can't even site
and a NEC code change that effects much of the whole country. And I'd
hope you wouldn't go around posting about a "code change", when you
now say that so far even the inspectors making you put outlets in
ground pin up, can't site the code behind it.

You enjoy chastising...but clearly don't know how inspectors work, right or
wrong. We had a state inspector/engineer who said we had to remove a block
wall that supported an over-hang at a back entrance. Fire Code says the roof
has to be 4 ft or more to require sprinkler coverage...this was 3 ft. My
regional maintenance supervisor did not want to fight it! We contracted to
have a tubular pillar put in. That engineer became the chief engineer for
the state! (Yes, I know this is fire code and not electrical code)

As usual, you chime in and don't know WTF you're talking about. I never
said or implied anything about how inspectors work or don't work. I didn't
tell Diesel to argue with the inspector. My point was that when you make
a post that the "code" has been changed so that it now requires receptacles
be installed ground pin up, and you don't make any reference to a location
or local code, it
implies that the NEC has been changed. It's like people posting here
that the code now requires AFCI in most of the living space. That's
true, because the NEC has been changed. In the case of the ground pin
up, from what Diesel is now saying this is something that some of the
local inspectors he deals with are requiring, but they can't cite any
code to back it up. According to you I should have just shut up so that
people reading it think that this is "code" like AFCIs, etc and that it
probably applies to them, when so far no one can even cite the code?
And I'm about 99.9% sure it's not in NEC. If this were an NEC thing,
widely adopted, it would be all over the internet. It's not.

It occurred to me that there might be a different suggestion or maybe
even a code for nursing homes or hospitals where oxygen tents might be
expected. I looked for hospital grade receptacles orientation and found
this which seems to confirm my suspicions.

http://communities.leviton.com/thread/1448

Not an authoritative answer, but perhaps the reason for many
professionals to do it that way by default.

Replacement screws for a GE panel
 

On Monday, September 5, 2016 at 11:56:32 PM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Monday, September 5, 2016 at 6:31:28 PM UTC-4, bob_villa wrote:
On Monday, September 5, 2016 at 3:55:41 PM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Monday, September 5, 2016 at 3:31:31 PM UTC-4, Diesel wrote:

As they have the final
say over the inspection, Myself and the rest of the crew tend to do
what they want us to do. We're just the electricians, not that high
up the totem pole.


That's fine. But I would think you'd realize that there is a difference
between some local inspectors enforcing something that they can't even site
and a NEC code change that effects much of the whole country. And I'd
hope you wouldn't go around posting about a "code change", when you
now say that so far even the inspectors making you put outlets in
ground pin up, can't site the code behind it.

You enjoy chastising...but clearly don't know how inspectors work, right or wrong. We had a state inspector/engineer who said we had to remove a block wall that supported an over-hang at a back entrance. Fire Code says the roof has to be 4 ft or more to require sprinkler coverage...this was 3 ft.. My regional maintenance supervisor did not want to fight it! We contracted to have a tubular pillar put in. That engineer became the chief engineer for the state! (Yes, I know this is fire code and not electrical code)

As usual, you chime in and don't know WTF you're talking about. I never
said or implied anything about how inspectors work or don't work. I didn't
tell Diesel to argue with the inspector. My point was that when you make
a post that the "code" has been changed so that it now requires receptacles
be installed ground pin up, and you don't make any reference to a location
or local code, it
implies that the NEC has been changed. It's like people posting here
that the code now requires AFCI in most of the living space. That's
true, because the NEC has been changed. In the case of the ground pin
up, from what Diesel is now saying this is something that some of the
local inspectors he deals with are requiring, but they can't cite any
code to back it up. According to you I should have just shut up so that
people reading it think that this is "code" like AFCIs, etc and that it
probably applies to them, when so far no one can even cite the code?
And I'm about 99.9% sure it's not in NEC. If this were an NEC thing,
widely adopted, it would be all over the internet. It's not.

....all you ever seem to do is repeat yourself...blah, blah, bablah! That makes you the anal idiot.

Replacement screws for a GE panel
 

On Tuesday, September 6, 2016 at 7:29:21 AM UTC-4, FromTheRafters wrote:


It occurred to me that there might be a different suggestion or maybe
even a code for nursing homes or hospitals where oxygen tents might be
expected. I looked for hospital grade receptacles orientation and found
this which seems to confirm my suspicions.

http://communities.leviton.com/thread/1448


It's obviously not very authoritative because it's wrong.

"if you look at any GFCI receptacle you will notice the orientation of the writing is with the ground up."

I took me 10 secs to disprove that. I just looked at the closest one,
in a bathroom. It has lettering twice, for "test", "reset", etc.
one set upside down from the other so it can be
installed either way. Then I went downstairs and the one in my master
bath has the GFCI verticle, but receptacles that are part of it
are sideways, with the ground pin on the left and
the lettering is set up to accommodate that. At least I assume that's
the "writing" that they are referring to. So then I figured maybe
something has changed and new ones are marked like they say. So, where
better to look than the Leviton website for their products:

http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/Secti...minisite=10251


The current Leviton ones are marked just like mine, to be used in either
direction. So, whoever wrote that reply doesn't know WTF they are
talking about.

"Which brings up a concern that 90 percent of all plugs that are made for devices are designed to have the ground down."

I agree with that, but obviously it's not a problem here in my world
because I can't recall seeing a GFCI installed ground pin up. Once
in a blue moon I see a receptacle upside down, but not often. But it
sure would be a good idea for people to figure all this out, before
they go mucking with it on some theory. I doubt there is any evidence
of people dying, getting injured, buildings burning down, because
they are installed ground pin down. If you had enough cords that work
better going in ground pin down being used the other way, I wouldn't
be surprised that would create more problems. For example the flat
kind, put in upside down, and the cord coming partially out from
cord movement, people hitting it, etc.

"For safety sake in a hospital where an oxygen rich atmosphere exist you will want to go with the standard practice of most electricians and engineers of having the ground up"

Not clear what they mean here by "standard practice". Do they mean
that it's standard practice in a hospital where oxygen rich atmospheres
exist? Or do they mean it's standard practice of most electricians
period. It's the kind of wording that drives DerbyDad bonkers and
I agree here it's not clear.

Not an authoritative answer, but perhaps the reason for many
professionals to do it that way by default.

It's consistent reasoning with what others have brought up here.
But it's also a good example of what happens when folks like those
on the Leviton website go off half-cocked and why it's better to
have consistent, national codes and practices to the extent possible.

Replacement screws for a GE panel
 

On Tuesday, September 6, 2016 at 8:31:05 AM UTC-4, bob_villa wrote:
On Monday, September 5, 2016 at 11:56:32 PM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Monday, September 5, 2016 at 6:31:28 PM UTC-4, bob_villa wrote:
On Monday, September 5, 2016 at 3:55:41 PM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Monday, September 5, 2016 at 3:31:31 PM UTC-4, Diesel wrote:

As they have the final
say over the inspection, Myself and the rest of the crew tend to do
what they want us to do. We're just the electricians, not that high
up the totem pole.


That's fine. But I would think you'd realize that there is a difference
between some local inspectors enforcing something that they can't even site
and a NEC code change that effects much of the whole country. And I'd
hope you wouldn't go around posting about a "code change", when you
now say that so far even the inspectors making you put outlets in
ground pin up, can't site the code behind it.

You enjoy chastising...but clearly don't know how inspectors work, right or wrong. We had a state inspector/engineer who said we had to remove a block wall that supported an over-hang at a back entrance. Fire Code says the roof has to be 4 ft or more to require sprinkler coverage...this was 3 ft. My regional maintenance supervisor did not want to fight it! We contracted to have a tubular pillar put in. That engineer became the chief engineer for the state! (Yes, I know this is fire code and not electrical code)

As usual, you chime in and don't know WTF you're talking about. I never
said or implied anything about how inspectors work or don't work. I didn't
tell Diesel to argue with the inspector. My point was that when you make
a post that the "code" has been changed so that it now requires receptacles
be installed ground pin up, and you don't make any reference to a location
or local code, it
implies that the NEC has been changed. It's like people posting here
that the code now requires AFCI in most of the living space. That's
true, because the NEC has been changed. In the case of the ground pin
up, from what Diesel is now saying this is something that some of the
local inspectors he deals with are requiring, but they can't cite any
code to back it up. According to you I should have just shut up so that
people reading it think that this is "code" like AFCIs, etc and that it
probably applies to them, when so far no one can even cite the code?
And I'm about 99.9% sure it's not in NEC. If this were an NEC thing,
widely adopted, it would be all over the internet. It's not.

...all you ever seem to do is repeat yourself...blah, blah, bablah! That makes you the anal idiot.

Sometimes I have to because village idiots like you just can't comprehend.

Replacement screws for a GE panel
 

On Tuesday, September 6, 2016 at 7:51:35 AM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, September 6, 2016 at 8:31:05 AM UTC-4, bob_villa wrote:
On Monday, September 5, 2016 at 11:56:32 PM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Monday, September 5, 2016 at 6:31:28 PM UTC-4, bob_villa wrote:
On Monday, September 5, 2016 at 3:55:41 PM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Monday, September 5, 2016 at 3:31:31 PM UTC-4, Diesel wrote:

As they have the final
say over the inspection, Myself and the rest of the crew tend to do
what they want us to do. We're just the electricians, not that high
up the totem pole.


That's fine. But I would think you'd realize that there is a difference
between some local inspectors enforcing something that they can't even site
and a NEC code change that effects much of the whole country. And I'd
hope you wouldn't go around posting about a "code change", when you
now say that so far even the inspectors making you put outlets in
ground pin up, can't site the code behind it.

You enjoy chastising...but clearly don't know how inspectors work, right or wrong. We had a state inspector/engineer who said we had to remove a block wall that supported an over-hang at a back entrance. Fire Code says the roof has to be 4 ft or more to require sprinkler coverage...this was 3 ft. My regional maintenance supervisor did not want to fight it! We contracted to have a tubular pillar put in. That engineer became the chief engineer for the state! (Yes, I know this is fire code and not electrical code)

As usual, you chime in and don't know WTF you're talking about. I never
said or implied anything about how inspectors work or don't work. I didn't
tell Diesel to argue with the inspector. My point was that when you make
a post that the "code" has been changed so that it now requires receptacles
be installed ground pin up, and you don't make any reference to a location
or local code, it
implies that the NEC has been changed. It's like people posting here
that the code now requires AFCI in most of the living space. That's
true, because the NEC has been changed. In the case of the ground pin
up, from what Diesel is now saying this is something that some of the
local inspectors he deals with are requiring, but they can't cite any
code to back it up. According to you I should have just shut up so that
people reading it think that this is "code" like AFCIs, etc and that it
probably applies to them, when so far no one can even cite the code?
And I'm about 99.9% sure it's not in NEC. If this were an NEC thing,
widely adopted, it would be all over the internet. It's not.

...all you ever seem to do is repeat yourself...blah, blah, bablah! That makes you the anal idiot.

Sometimes I have to because village idiots like you just can't comprehend..

I comprehend you have a mental problem...

Replacement screws for a GE panel
 

On Tuesday, September 6, 2016 at 8:49:36 AM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:

...snip...

Not clear what they mean here by "standard practice". Do they mean
that it's standard practice in a hospital where oxygen rich atmospheres
exist? Or do they mean it's standard practice of most electricians
period. It's the kind of wording that drives DerbyDad bonkers and
I agree here it's not clear.

At least someone gets me. ;-)

Replacement screws for a GE panel
 

trader_4 formulated on Tuesday :
On Tuesday, September 6, 2016 at 7:29:21 AM UTC-4, FromTheRafters wrote:


It occurred to me that there might be a different suggestion or maybe
even a code for nursing homes or hospitals where oxygen tents might be
expected. I looked for hospital grade receptacles orientation and found
this which seems to confirm my suspicions.

http://communities.leviton.com/thread/1448


It's obviously not very authoritative because it's wrong.

"if you look at any GFCI receptacle you will notice the orientation of the
writing is with the ground up."

I took me 10 secs to disprove that. I just looked at the closest one,
in a bathroom. It has lettering twice, for "test", "reset", etc.
one set upside down from the other so it can be
installed either way. Then I went downstairs and the one in my master
bath has the GFCI verticle, but receptacles that are part of it
are sideways, with the ground pin on the left and
the lettering is set up to accommodate that. At least I assume that's
the "writing" that they are referring to. So then I figured maybe
something has changed and new ones are marked like they say. So, where
better to look than the Leviton website for their products:

http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/Secti...minisite=10251


The current Leviton ones are marked just like mine, to be used in either
direction. So, whoever wrote that reply doesn't know WTF they are
talking about.

"Which brings up a concern that 90 percent of all plugs that are made for
devices are designed to have the ground down."

I agree with that, but obviously it's not a problem here in my world
because I can't recall seeing a GFCI installed ground pin up. Once
in a blue moon I see a receptacle upside down, but not often. But it
sure would be a good idea for people to figure all this out, before
they go mucking with it on some theory. I doubt there is any evidence
of people dying, getting injured, buildings burning down, because
they are installed ground pin down. If you had enough cords that work
better going in ground pin down being used the other way, I wouldn't
be surprised that would create more problems. For example the flat
kind, put in upside down, and the cord coming partially out from
cord movement, people hitting it, etc.

"For safety sake in a hospital where an oxygen rich atmosphere exist you will
want to go with the standard practice of most electricians and engineers of
having the ground up"

Not clear what they mean here by "standard practice". Do they mean
that it's standard practice in a hospital where oxygen rich atmospheres
exist? Or do they mean it's standard practice of most electricians
period. It's the kind of wording that drives DerbyDad bonkers and
I agree here it's not clear.

Not an authoritative answer, but perhaps the reason for many
professionals to do it that way by default.

It's consistent reasoning with what others have brought up here.
But it's also a good example of what happens when folks like those
on the Leviton website go off half-cocked and why it's better to
have consistent, national codes and practices to the extent possible.

Here is a hospital grade right angle plug. Notice the 'apparently
expected' orientation.

http://www.interpower.com/cgi-bin/ic...part=88030270A

Everywhere I've looked, I see no indication of NEC code about 'ground
up' orientation, but plenty of local practice examples can be found.

Replacement screws for a GE panel
 

On Tue, 06 Sep 2016 10:52:50 -0400, FromTheRafters
wrote:

Everywhere I've looked, I see no indication of NEC code about 'ground
up' orientation, but plenty of local practice examples can be found.

I see the ground up orientation on switched outlets, help to identify.
One plug is hot, the other switched and marked with a little round
sticker. We have a few in the house. Two cents.

Replacement screws for a GE panel
 

Oren formulated on Tuesday :
On Tue, 06 Sep 2016 10:52:50 -0400, FromTheRafters
wrote:

Everywhere I've looked, I see no indication of NEC code about 'ground
up' orientation, but plenty of local practice examples can be found.

I see the ground up orientation on switched outlets, help to identify.
One plug is hot, the other switched and marked with a little round
sticker. We have a few in the house. Two cents.

There's this also, notice the writing (which wouldn't be visible behind
the escutcheon).

http://www.ul.com/wp-content/uploads...eceptacles.pdf

Anyway, none of these observations really mean anything. If some
electrician tells you it's code, ask him for the chapter and verse so
that you can inform the internet. :)

Replacement screws for a GE panel
 

Oren writes:
On Tue, 06 Sep 2016 10:52:50 -0400, FromTheRafters
wrote:

Everywhere I've looked, I see no indication of NEC code about 'ground
up' orientation, but plenty of local practice examples can be found.

I see the ground up orientation on switched outlets, help to identify.
One plug is hot, the other switched and marked with a little round
sticker. We have a few in the house. Two cents.

I was taught ground-up orientation helps prevent inadvertent shorts
that may occur when the plug is not completely inserted and something
metal falls across the blades.

I don't believe NEC requires a specific
orientation.

Replacement screws for a GE panel
 

On Tuesday, September 6, 2016 at 1:24:34 PM UTC-4, FromTheRafters wrote:
Oren formulated on Tuesday :
On Tue, 06 Sep 2016 10:52:50 -0400, FromTheRafters
wrote:

Everywhere I've looked, I see no indication of NEC code about 'ground
up' orientation, but plenty of local practice examples can be found.

I see the ground up orientation on switched outlets, help to identify.
One plug is hot, the other switched and marked with a little round
sticker. We have a few in the house. Two cents.

There's this also, notice the writing (which wouldn't be visible behind
the escutcheon).

http://www.ul.com/wp-content/uploads...eceptacles.pdf


So in that Leviton thread where they said the standard practice of
electricians to put them in ground pin up, they probably meant that
it's the standard practice for "hospitals". I wonder if there is a
hospital grade GFCI and that's what they were referring to when they
said you could look at any GFCI and it's labeled to go in ground pin up?

Never mind. Just looked at Leviton and their hospital grade GFCI
and it's marked like other GFCI, so it can go in either way.

http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/Secti...?section=58994

But they do show them ground pin up, mostly.



Anyway, none of these observations really mean anything. If some
electrician tells you it's code, ask him for the chapter and verse so
that you can inform the internet. :)

Replacement screws for a GE panel
 

We lived in Germany a few years back.

All plugs and outlets are designed so the conductors are completely covered long before they make contact.

That seemed a more efficient way to do it.

Replacement screws for a GE panel
 

trader_4 was thinking very hard :
On Tuesday, September 6, 2016 at 1:24:34 PM UTC-4, FromTheRafters wrote:
Oren formulated on Tuesday :
On Tue, 06 Sep 2016 10:52:50 -0400, FromTheRafters
wrote:

Everywhere I've looked, I see no indication of NEC code about 'ground
up' orientation, but plenty of local practice examples can be found.

I see the ground up orientation on switched outlets, help to identify.
One plug is hot, the other switched and marked with a little round
sticker. We have a few in the house. Two cents.

There's this also, notice the writing (which wouldn't be visible behind
the escutcheon).

http://www.ul.com/wp-content/uploads...eceptacles.pdf


So in that Leviton thread where they said the standard practice of
electricians to put them in ground pin up, they probably meant that
it's the standard practice for "hospitals".

That's possible, since it was about hospital grade receptacles, but as
you stated and DerbyDad03 wholeheartedly agreed, it wasn't clear. It
would have been better for the writer to have been explicit rather than
to rely on something only implied in context.

I wonder if there is a hospital grade GFCI and that's what they were
referring to when they said you could look at any GFCI and it's labeled to go
in ground pin up?

Never mind. Just looked at Leviton and their hospital grade GFCI
and it's marked like other GFCI, so it can go in either way.

http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/Secti...?section=58994

But they do show them ground pin up, mostly.



Anyway, none of these observations really mean anything. If some
electrician tells you it's code, ask him for the chapter and verse so
that you can inform the internet. :)

Replacement screws for a GE panel
 

On Tue, 06 Sep 2016 18:01:48 GMT, (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

Oren writes:
On Tue, 06 Sep 2016 10:52:50 -0400, FromTheRafters
wrote:

Everywhere I've looked, I see no indication of NEC code about 'ground
up' orientation, but plenty of local practice examples can be found.

I see the ground up orientation on switched outlets, help to identify.
One plug is hot, the other switched and marked with a little round
sticker. We have a few in the house. Two cents.

I was taught ground-up orientation helps prevent inadvertent shorts
that may occur when the plug is not completely inserted and something
metal falls across the blades.

I don't believe NEC requires a specific
orientation.
Insering a right angle plug into a "ground up" outlet puts a lot of
strain on the connection - virtually all "right angle" plugs assume
the "conventional" ground down orientation.

Replacement screws for a GE panel
 

FromTheRafters posted for all of us...


oxygen tents might be
expected.


Oxygen tents? You have been watching too many old movies. They now have
nasal cannulas, face masks and CPAP.

Also this topic seems to come up every 6 months or so and still the BS
ensues...

--
Tekkie

Replacement screws for a GE panel
 

On Tuesday, September 6, 2016 at 9:53:03 AM UTC-5, FromTheRafters wrote:
trader_4 formulated on Tuesday :
On Tuesday, September 6, 2016 at 7:29:21 AM UTC-4, FromTheRafters wrote:


It occurred to me that there might be a different suggestion or maybe
even a code for nursing homes or hospitals where oxygen tents might be
expected. I looked for hospital grade receptacles orientation and found
this which seems to confirm my suspicions.

http://communities.leviton.com/thread/1448


It's obviously not very authoritative because it's wrong.

"if you look at any GFCI receptacle you will notice the orientation of the
writing is with the ground up."

I took me 10 secs to disprove that. I just looked at the closest one,
in a bathroom. It has lettering twice, for "test", "reset", etc.
one set upside down from the other so it can be
installed either way. Then I went downstairs and the one in my master
bath has the GFCI verticle, but receptacles that are part of it
are sideways, with the ground pin on the left and
the lettering is set up to accommodate that. At least I assume that's
the "writing" that they are referring to. So then I figured maybe
something has changed and new ones are marked like they say. So, where
better to look than the Leviton website for their products:

http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/Secti...minisite=10251


The current Leviton ones are marked just like mine, to be used in either
direction. So, whoever wrote that reply doesn't know WTF they are
talking about.

"Which brings up a concern that 90 percent of all plugs that are made for
devices are designed to have the ground down."

I agree with that, but obviously it's not a problem here in my world
because I can't recall seeing a GFCI installed ground pin up. Once
in a blue moon I see a receptacle upside down, but not often. But it
sure would be a good idea for people to figure all this out, before
they go mucking with it on some theory. I doubt there is any evidence
of people dying, getting injured, buildings burning down, because
they are installed ground pin down. If you had enough cords that work
better going in ground pin down being used the other way, I wouldn't
be surprised that would create more problems. For example the flat
kind, put in upside down, and the cord coming partially out from
cord movement, people hitting it, etc.

"For safety sake in a hospital where an oxygen rich atmosphere exist you will
want to go with the standard practice of most electricians and engineers of
having the ground up"

Not clear what they mean here by "standard practice". Do they mean
that it's standard practice in a hospital where oxygen rich atmospheres
exist? Or do they mean it's standard practice of most electricians
period. It's the kind of wording that drives DerbyDad bonkers and
I agree here it's not clear.

Not an authoritative answer, but perhaps the reason for many
professionals to do it that way by default.

It's consistent reasoning with what others have brought up here.
But it's also a good example of what happens when folks like those
on the Leviton website go off half-cocked and why it's better to
have consistent, national codes and practices to the extent possible.

Here is a hospital grade right angle plug. Notice the 'apparently
expected' orientation.

http://www.interpower.com/cgi-bin/ic...part=88030270A

Everywhere I've looked, I see no indication of NEC code about 'ground
up' orientation, but plenty of local practice examples can be found.

That one could be reversible, not totally sure?

Replacement screws for a GE panel
 

=?iso-8859-15?Q?Tekkie=AE?=
Tue, 06 Sep 2016 20:47:46 GMT in
alt.home.repair, wrote:

FromTheRafters posted for all of us...


oxygen tents might be
expected.


Oxygen tents? You have been watching too many old movies. They now
have nasal cannulas, face masks and CPAP.

Next time I'm at the VA for someone, I'll try to take pictures of what
can happen if you smoke or have a flame near one of those devices.
While they don't always ignite, sometimes, they do. When they do, the
results usually aren't good.



--
MID:
Hmmm. I most certainly don't understand how I can access a copy of a
zip file but then not be able to unzip it so I can watch it. That
seems VERY clever!
http://al.howardknight.net/msgid.cgi?ID=145716711400