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#1
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No grounds in my 1950 house
I'm sure this question comes up often, but I have a bit of twist on it.
My house was built in 1950. I purchased it in 1971. When I looked at the wiring, I knew nothing of electrial boxes and actually didn't even think to ask where it was. I was satisfied though, because I noticed that all the power recepticals were of the three-prong type, which indicated to me a grounded system. It wasn't until a couple of years later, when painting and taking off the face plate, did I discover that the wiring was only two conductor Romax, with the two prong sockets removed and the three prong, with the ground installed.--but it the ground went nowhere. Every outlet, is fake as far as grounding goes. I was/am very unhappy about this. Financially, I can't afford to rewire the house, although it desperately needs it. Since finding the "no ground" ground, I've found copper wire, spliced to aliminum, no consistent color scheme for hot, neutral. The circuit breaker panel appears to have been hacked into the wall, which is on the stairs and hidden behind the stairway door when it is opened. The panel is completely exposed. EMF fields are strong. I can't tell the amps of the breakers, but I know if I run the microwave and an electric mixer at the same time in the kitchen, withing five minutes, the breker trips. There is no Master Disconnect. When the refridgerator kicks on or the washing machine is turned on (they are on different breakers) the house lights flicker, some of the electrical outlets in the basement are in the ceiling (I don't think they could get a box into the concret foundation. In the upstairs, there are a few recepticals on interior walls which have been plastered in--no attention to whether there was a stud anywhere. Along the perimeter walls, which are made of plaster, over metal lathe, over cinder block and an outside brick veneer, evidently, holes were cut into the cinder block for the outlet box and the box and wire, plastered into the wall. Oh, the downstairs wiring, which is in the ceiling, when I did work there, saw that the wiring is stapled to the joists--so fishing something through would be very difficult with staples holding the wiring in place. 1st question is what would you do? --I know, move out; burn the house down, blow it up, take a very large backhoe to it and start over. How this passed code, even back in 1950, is beyond me. Except people around here said that the contractor and building inspector had a "special" relationship. Is there anyway at all to ground anything, without spending a fortune. Can something be done with GFP that would help? I have tools that I need to use outside. They are not double insulated. The warning is written over and over, do not use a ground lifter--this equipment MUST be attached to a properly grounded outlet. Could I for the outside outlets, drive a copper rod into the ground, attach a thick copper braid (strap) to it and attach that to the metal of the box that the socket is in (or to the box then from there use 10 AWG to the Ground of the socket) and have a good, workable, safe ground? Years ago, I used to be an amateur radio operator. To ground my equipment, I drove a 10' copper rod into the ground, attached a 1" wide copper Strap, brought that into the room, attached it to a heavy metal box and ran ground wires from that to my equipent --instead of trying to ground the electrical boxes, I grounded the equipment. This actually worked. When lightining struck my antenna, all it did was come down the heavy coax, jump the gap of a lightining arrestor that led directly to the ground and the strikes never got to my equipment --except for the one time when a storm was coming, I had unhooked the antenna and was preparing to put it directly to ground--ground cable in left hand, antenna coax in right and WHAM! a lightning strike that knocked me across the room. (Boy was that fun). So, would some kind of copper grounding rod and strap to an outside metal box work. And as I mentioned would I gain anything by putting in GPFs, although there would be no ground to them? --I know, I know. It's my fault for not having an electrician inspect the house before I bought it, but I was young, trusting, and saw the three prong outlets. Any helpfull ideas will be appreciated and if you want to laugh at me, go ahead, I deserve it--but now, what can we do to fix it? Thanks, Bob that leaves me open to all kinds of wise-cracks, but take it seriously. I don't have the money to tear out the ceiling, basement walls, upstairs cinder block and stucco walls, rip out all the wiring and have someone do it right. .. It is completely exposed at all |
#2
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No grounds in my 1950 house
On 22 Oct 2006 23:09:56 -0700, "stars1234"
wrote: I'm sure this question comes up often, but I have a bit of twist on it. My house was built in 1950. I purchased it in 1971. When I looked at the wiring, I knew nothing of electrial boxes and actually didn't even think to ask where it was. I was satisfied though, because I noticed that all the power recepticals were of the three-prong type, which indicated to me a grounded system. It wasn't until a couple of years later, when painting and taking off the face plate, did I discover that the wiring was only two conductor Romax, with the two prong sockets removed and the three prong, with the ground installed.--but it the ground went nowhere. Every outlet, is fake as far as grounding goes. I was/am very unhappy about this. Financially, I can't afford to rewire the house, although it desperately needs it. Since finding the "no ground" ground, I've found copper wire, spliced to aliminum, no consistent color scheme for hot, neutral. The circuit breaker panel appears to have been hacked into the wall, which is on the stairs and hidden behind the stairway door when it is opened. The panel is completely exposed. EMF fields are strong. I can't tell the amps of the breakers, but I know if I run the microwave and an electric mixer at the same time in the kitchen, withing five minutes, the breker trips. There is no Master Disconnect. When the refridgerator kicks on or the washing machine is turned on (they are on different breakers) the house lights flicker, some of the electrical outlets in the basement are in the ceiling (I don't think they could get a box into the concret foundation. In the upstairs, there are a few recepticals on interior walls which have been plastered in--no attention to whether there was a stud anywhere. Along the perimeter walls, which are made of plaster, over metal lathe, over cinder block and an outside brick veneer, evidently, holes were cut into the cinder block for the outlet box and the box and wire, plastered into the wall. Oh, the downstairs wiring, which is in the ceiling, when I did work there, saw that the wiring is stapled to the joists--so fishing something through would be very difficult with staples holding the wiring in place. 1st question is what would you do? --I know, move out; burn the house down, blow it up, take a very large backhoe to it and start over. How this passed code, even back in 1950, is beyond me. Except people around here said that the contractor and building inspector had a "special" relationship. Is there anyway at all to ground anything, without spending a fortune. Can something be done with GFP that would help? I have tools that I need to use outside. They are not double insulated. The warning is written over and over, do not use a ground lifter--this equipment MUST be attached to a properly grounded outlet. Could I for the outside outlets, drive a copper rod into the ground, attach a thick copper braid (strap) to it and attach that to the metal of the box that the socket is in (or to the box then from there use 10 AWG to the Ground of the socket) and have a good, workable, safe ground? Years ago, I used to be an amateur radio operator. To ground my equipment, I drove a 10' copper rod into the ground, attached a 1" wide copper Strap, brought that into the room, attached it to a heavy metal box and ran ground wires from that to my equipent --instead of trying to ground the electrical boxes, I grounded the equipment. This actually worked. When lightining struck my antenna, all it did was come down the heavy coax, jump the gap of a lightining arrestor that led directly to the ground and the strikes never got to my equipment --except for the one time when a storm was coming, I had unhooked the antenna and was preparing to put it directly to ground--ground cable in left hand, antenna coax in right and WHAM! a lightning strike that knocked me across the room. (Boy was that fun). So, would some kind of copper grounding rod and strap to an outside metal box work. And as I mentioned would I gain anything by putting in GPFs, although there would be no ground to them? --I know, I know. It's my fault for not having an electrician inspect the house before I bought it, but I was young, trusting, and saw the three prong outlets. Any helpfull ideas will be appreciated and if you want to laugh at me, go ahead, I deserve it--but now, what can we do to fix it? Thanks, Bob that leaves me open to all kinds of wise-cracks, but take it seriously. I don't have the money to tear out the ceiling, basement walls, upstairs cinder block and stucco walls, rip out all the wiring and have someone do it right. . It is completely exposed at all I would calmly and carefully begin to fix each code violation as time and finances permitted. After all, you've been living there for over 30 years without getting fried or burning down the house so the hazard is obviously not an immediate one, especially now that you know the potential hazards of using those outdoor tools. I don't think grounded outlets were even available back in 1950, so their improper installation was probably done by a subsequent owner or not so good do-it-yourselfer... What is odd is that I've never seen Romex used in houses back in 1950, metal covered BX was the standard then. I wonder if the whole house was rewired by some do-it-yourselfer at a later date. I'd be curious and check to see if there is a date code on that Romex - there often is. Ground fault outlets will give you much of the protection of a grounded outlet without the rewiring costs. They will give you a measure of safety while using those outdoor power tools. BTW, I'm also an amateur radio operator. I directly gound my antenna system with a heavy ceramic knife switch to outside ground rods during lightning conditions using #2 gauge wire less than 8 ft long. Of course, nothing gives absolute protection from a direct lightning strike... I'm mainly interested in getting an excellent RF gound. Doug |
#3
Posted to alt.home.repair
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No grounds in my 1950 house
I don't think grounded outlets were even available back in 1950, so their improper installation was probably done by a subsequent owner or not so good do-it-yourselfer... What is odd is that I've never seen Romex used in houses back in 1950, metal covered BX was the standard then. I wonder if the whole house was rewired by some do-it-yourselfer at a later date. I'd be curious and check to see if there is a date code on that Romex - there often is. I lived in a house built in 1947, my father purchased it in 1950, and the wiring was done with old style Romex. The black tar coated cable with the outer braid over 2 kraft paper wrapped insulated wires with no ground. Non-metallic cable was made and used back then. |
#4
Posted to alt.home.repair
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No grounds in my 1950 house
EXT wrote:
I don't think grounded outlets were even available back in 1950, so their improper installation was probably done by a subsequent owner or not so good do-it-yourselfer... What is odd is that I've never seen Romex used in houses back in 1950, metal covered BX was the standard then. I wonder if the whole house was rewired by some do-it-yourselfer at a later date. I'd be curious and check to see if there is a date code on that Romex - there often is. I lived in a house built in 1947, my father purchased it in 1950, and the wiring was done with old style Romex. The black tar coated cable with the outer braid over 2 kraft paper wrapped insulated wires with no ground. Non-metallic cable was made and used back then. Yes, I can attest to that. In 1953, there were two kinds of Romex on the market: one had a white, chalky outer cover with paper wrapped TW conductors, and the other had a kind of silver black coating that flaked off when installing it. The flaky stuff would get into your skin. Both types, at that time, were ungrounded Romex, and where there was an outlet near a water pipe, or other such plumbing, or grounded surface, a separate ground wire, from a spool of #14 bare wire, was installed from the outlet box to the nearest cold water pipe and fastened to a strap around the pipe. Maybe you could find a spool of such bare wire and go ahead and run some grounds to your outlets. |
#5
Posted to alt.home.repair
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No grounds in my 1950 house
Yes, I can attest to that. In 1953, there were two kinds of Romex on the market: one had a white, chalky outer cover with paper wrapped TW conductors, and the other had a kind of silver black coating that flaked off when installing it. The flaky stuff would get into your skin. Both types, at that time, were ungrounded Romex, and where there was an outlet near a water pipe, or other such plumbing, or grounded surface, a separate ground wire, from a spool of #14 bare wire, was installed from the outlet box to the nearest cold water pipe and fastened to a strap around the pipe. Maybe you could find a spool of such bare wire and go ahead and run some grounds to your outlets. I would not count on such a "make shift" group for protection against shock. Rather I would have a GFCI on each outlet or each circuit. A water pipe ground would be OK for a ground for a radio receiver but for a "safety" ground it's not "gud enuf." If you have a short you could end up with "hot" water pipes and the break or fuse still letting power through. |
#6
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No grounds in my 1950 house
John Gilmer wrote:
Yes, I can attest to that. In 1953, there were two kinds of Romex on the market: one had a white, chalky outer cover with paper wrapped TW conductors, and the other had a kind of silver black coating that flaked off when installing it. The flaky stuff would get into your skin. Both types, at that time, were ungrounded Romex, and where there was an outlet near a water pipe, or other such plumbing, or grounded surface, a separate ground wire, from a spool of #14 bare wire, was installed from the outlet box to the nearest cold water pipe and fastened to a strap around the pipe. Maybe you could find a spool of such bare wire and go ahead and run some grounds to your outlets. I would not count on such a "make shift" group for protection against shock. Rather I would have a GFCI on each outlet or each circuit. A water pipe ground would be OK for a ground for a radio receiver but for a "safety" ground it's not "gud enuf." If you have a short you could end up with "hot" water pipes and the break or fuse still letting power through. Yes, I wouldn't recommend fastening the modern grounds to a water pipe nearby for the reason you have mentioned. Somewhere down the line, somebody just might do some plumbing remodeling and put in some plastic pipe instead, and the "ground" would, therefore, be lost. I was just recalling what was done in the 50's. I would still recommend finding a spool of bare ground wire and fishing it into the walls to the metal outlet boxes and then fastening the ends to a mainliner ground and returning this to the panel for a good system ground. This way the original wiring wouldn't have to be replaced. And if some connections were found to be aluminum to copper, they should have the NO-OX compound put on them and then connected together. |
#7
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No grounds in my 1950 house
I don't know what part of the country you're in, but _I've_ never seen metal
covered cable in ANY house of any age. All the old houses I've been in or dealt with have been cloth Romex. (not Romax) -- Steve Barker "Doug" wrote in message ... What is odd is that I've never seen Romex used in houses back in 1950, metal covered BX was the standard then. I wonder if the whole house was rewired by some do-it-yourselfer at a later date. I'd be curious and check to see if there is a date code on that Romex - there often is. Doug |
#8
Posted to alt.home.repair
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No grounds in my 1950 house
Steve Barker LT wrote:
I don't know what part of the country you're in, but _I've_ never seen metal covered cable in ANY house of any age. All the old houses I've been in or dealt with have been cloth Romex. (not Romax) bx....... |
#9
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No grounds in my 1950 house
On 22 Oct 2006 23:09:56 -0700, "stars1234"
wrote: I'm sure this question comes up often, but I have a bit of twist on it. My house was built in 1950. I purchased it in 1971. When I looked at the wiring, I knew nothing of electrial boxes and actually didn't even think to ask where it was. I was satisfied though, because I noticed that all the power recepticals were of the three-prong type, which indicated to me a grounded system. It wasn't until a couple of years later, when painting and taking off the face plate, did I discover that the wiring was only two conductor Romax, with the two prong sockets removed and the three prong, with the ground installed.--but it the ground went nowhere. Every outlet, is fake as far as grounding goes. I was/am very unhappy about this. Financially, I can't afford to rewire the house, although it desperately needs it. Since finding the "no ground" ground, I've found copper wire, spliced to aliminum, no consistent color scheme for hot, neutral. The circuit breaker panel appears to have been hacked into the wall, which is on the stairs and hidden behind the stairway door when it is opened. The panel is completely exposed. EMF fields are strong. I can't tell the amps of the breakers, but I know if I run the microwave and an electric mixer at the same time in the kitchen, withing five minutes, the breker trips. There is no Master Disconnect. When the refridgerator kicks on or the washing machine is turned on (they are on different breakers) the house lights flicker, some of the electrical outlets in the basement are in the ceiling (I don't think they could get a box into the concret foundation. In the upstairs, there are a few recepticals on interior walls which have been plastered in--no attention to whether there was a stud anywhere. Along the perimeter walls, which are made of plaster, over metal lathe, over cinder block and an outside brick veneer, evidently, holes were cut into the cinder block for the outlet box and the box and wire, plastered into the wall. Oh, the downstairs wiring, which is in the ceiling, when I did work there, saw that the wiring is stapled to the joists--so fishing something through would be very difficult with staples holding the wiring in place. 1st question is what would you do? --I know, move out; burn the house down, blow it up, take a very large backhoe to it and start over. How this passed code, even back in 1950, is beyond me. Except people around here said that the contractor and building inspector had a "special" relationship. Is there anyway at all to ground anything, without spending a fortune. Can something be done with GFP that would help? I have tools that I need to use outside. They are not double insulated. The warning is written over and over, do not use a ground lifter--this equipment MUST be attached to a properly grounded outlet. Could I for the outside outlets, drive a copper rod into the ground, attach a thick copper braid (strap) to it and attach that to the metal of the box that the socket is in (or to the box then from there use 10 AWG to the Ground of the socket) and have a good, workable, safe ground? Years ago, I used to be an amateur radio operator. To ground my equipment, I drove a 10' copper rod into the ground, attached a 1" wide copper Strap, brought that into the room, attached it to a heavy metal box and ran ground wires from that to my equipent --instead of trying to ground the electrical boxes, I grounded the equipment. This actually worked. When lightining struck my antenna, all it did was come down the heavy coax, jump the gap of a lightining arrestor that led directly to the ground and the strikes never got to my equipment --except for the one time when a storm was coming, I had unhooked the antenna and was preparing to put it directly to ground--ground cable in left hand, antenna coax in right and WHAM! a lightning strike that knocked me across the room. (Boy was that fun). So, would some kind of copper grounding rod and strap to an outside metal box work. And as I mentioned would I gain anything by putting in GPFs, although there would be no ground to them? --I know, I know. It's my fault for not having an electrician inspect the house before I bought it, but I was young, trusting, and saw the three prong outlets. Any helpfull ideas will be appreciated and if you want to laugh at me, go ahead, I deserve it--but now, what can we do to fix it? Thanks, Bob that leaves me open to all kinds of wise-cracks, but take it seriously. I don't have the money to tear out the ceiling, basement walls, upstairs cinder block and stucco walls, rip out all the wiring and have someone do it right. . It is completely exposed at all How many people were killed over the last 40 years? Ok, multiply that by how much money you should spend to fix the 'problem'. |
#10
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No grounds in my 1950 house
stars1234 wrote: I'm sure this question comes up often, but I have a bit of twist on it. My house was built in 1950. I purchased it in 1971. When I looked at the wiring, I knew nothing of electrial boxes and actually didn't even think to ask where it was. I was satisfied though, because I noticed that all the power recepticals were of the three-prong type, which indicated to me a grounded system. It wasn't until a couple of years later, when painting and taking off the face plate, did I discover that the wiring was only two conductor Romax, with the two prong sockets removed and the three prong, with the ground installed.--but it the ground went nowhere. Every outlet, is fake as far as grounding goes. I was/am very unhappy about this. I just asked a very similar question a week ago or so; some good ideas he http://groups.google.com/group/alt.h...4499988c880ae3 HTH nate |
#11
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No grounds in my 1950 house
Get electrician to look at your home, its free and there may be good ideas like what you think is romex is BX I can easily add grounds to your outlets cheap Go buy a outlet tester they are about 5 bucks check your outlets to see if they are grounded. What I wrote above probably applies to you! At minimium get a grounded outlet installed in a handy location with GFCI for outdoor use.........Its a first ste in making things safe |
#12
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No grounds in my 1950 house
Put a gfci on the first outlet of every string, if you can't determine
the first outlet, they make[expensive]gfci breakers. The power company will usually upgrade the wire from the pole to the house for free. That may solve the dimming problem. Upgrading the breaker panel to a new 100 amp service is not crushingly expensive, and would be a start. wrote: Get electrician to look at your home, its free and there may be good ideas like what you think is romex is BX I can easily add grounds to your outlets cheap Go buy a outlet tester they are about 5 bucks check your outlets to see if they are grounded. What I wrote above probably applies to you! At minimium get a grounded outlet installed in a handy location with GFCI for outdoor use.........Its a first ste in making things safe |
#13
Posted to alt.home.repair
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No grounds in my 1950 house
It wasn't until a couple of years later, when painting and taking off the face plate, did I discover that the wiring was only two conductor Romax, with the two prong sockets removed and the three prong, with the ground installed.--but it the ground went nowhere. Tee hee. Buy yourself a bunch of GFCI outlets. When you can identify which outlet comes first, put the GFCI in the upstream outlet and feed the others from that. Otherwise, install the GFCIs to replace the "ground" type duplex outlet. If you carefully read the instructions of the GFCI you will see this is perfectly permitted. Since you don't have a ground, you should label each outlet as "ungrounded, GFCI protected." For safety sake, you should test your new outlets monthly using the built in test button. It's good to have the narrow slot connected to the HOT and the wide slot connected to the neutral but a GFCI opens both conductors when something goes wrong so don't lose too much sleep if HOT and NEUTRAL were reversed. Obviously, you home wiring is obsolete and you should have a long term plan to improve it. But adding the GFCIs will make your wiring reasonably safe. They only cost about $9 each or less at your BIG BOX store. |
#14
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No grounds in my 1950 house
I have tools that I need to use outside. They are not double insulated. The warning is written over and over, do not use a ground lifter--this equipment MUST be attached to a properly grounded outlet. Could I for the outside outlets, drive a copper rod into the ground, attach a thick copper braid (strap) to it and attach that to the metal of the box that the socket is in (or to the box then from there use 10 AWG to the Ground of the socket) and have a good, workable, safe ground? You would be better off installing a new circut, even if it's just one outlet stuck in the wall below the service panel, that's 20A and grounded, and then running a heavy-duty extension cord outside when you want to use the tools. As for the rest your electrical system, I'd say you need to either start budgeting for a complete tear-out and re-do, or learn to live a a low-power lifestyle. |
#15
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No grounds in my 1950 house
I haven't read any of the responses you received so i may be
repetitive. I purchased a house in 1971 and had it inspected. It had knob and tube wiring! I got a $4,000 discount because of that, did most of the rewiring myself, prearranged to pay a contractor to review my work in stages, and be there for the building inspector. Of course I had the contractor pull the permit after he was satisfied, I knew what I was doing. Saved a hell of a lot of money. I learned Electricity and Electronics in the Navy. When the job was finished, the contractor offered me a job, but I thanked him and told him I only did manual labor for myself. If you had the house inspected in 1971, you might have learned about the problems. I know of two homes that burned down from interior wall fires due to aluminum wiring. Dick |
#16
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No grounds in my 1950 house
Dick Adams wrote: I haven't read any of the responses you received so i may be repetitive. I purchased a house in 1971 and had it inspected. It had knob and tube wiring! I got a $4,000 discount because of that, did most of the rewiring myself, prearranged to pay a contractor to review my work in stages, and be there for the building inspector. Of course I had the contractor pull the permit after he was satisfied, I knew what I was doing. Saved a hell of a lot of money. I learned Electricity and Electronics in the Navy. When the job was finished, the contractor offered me a job, but I thanked him and told him I only did manual labor for myself. If you had the house inspected in 1971, you might have learned about the problems. I know of two homes that burned down from interior wall fires due to aluminum wiring. Dick |
#17
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No grounds in my 1950 house
yeah, my problem with the computers, et al. could very likely be the
wiring. My VOM tells me that the AC is 125 instead of 120 or 110. don't have an osciliscope to look for spikes but I bet they are all over. --do I have to get that AC down to at least 120? I assume the 125 (I've measure it with three different VOMs is because my house is the 1st on the power line transformer? My best bet then is to go out and buy a bunch of 20 amp GFCI from Harbor Freight? --will they work without being grounded? I hope the GFCIs will protect me at least to the point of a fault and subsequent shock, not kill me. Do I need one--at the head outlet (if I can find it--suggestions as how to do that?) or replace everyt receptical throught the house and mark them, ungrounded? The GFprotectors at Harbor Freight are $6 for a 20 amp . Is that a good price or should I go to Lowes/Home Depot and get cartons of them? For an actual outside ground that I could bring inside, I'd have to drive a rod into the ground. Then attack copperbraid to it and bring it inside to a terminal from which I can, with wire, connect that to the circuit box. (At least that's how it was done many years ago, when a single room on the house where I grew up was rewired. Here though, about all it will do is ground the panel.) Using a cold water pipe, I don't think will work. Correct me if I am wrong. As soon as it goes out of the house, it connects to the city mains by plastic pipe. What's the best way to get a copy of the code for my city, without raising any questions as to what I am doing? Bob Dick Adams wrote: I haven't read any of the responses you received so i may be repetitive. I purchased a house in 1971 and had it inspected. It had knob and tube wiring! I got a $4,000 discount because of that, did most of the rewiring myself, prearranged to pay a contractor to review my work in stages, and be there for the building inspector. Of course I had the contractor pull the permit after he was satisfied, I knew what I was doing. Saved a hell of a lot of money. I learned Electricity and Electronics in the Navy. When the job was finished, the contractor offered me a job, but I thanked him and told him I only did manual labor for myself. If you had the house inspected in 1971, you might have learned about the problems. I know of two homes that burned down from interior wall fires due to aluminum wiring. Dick |
#18
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No grounds in my 1950 house
My best bet then is to go out and buy a bunch of 20 amp GFCI from Harbor Freight? --will they work without being grounded? Yes. You are supposed to label the outlets as not being grounded but the label, obviously, doesn't protect anyone. I hope the GFCIs will protect me at least to the point of a fault and subsequent shock, not kill me. Do I need one--at the head outlet (if I can find it--suggestions as how to do that?) or replace everyt receptical throught the house and mark them, ungrounded? Well, you can start at the "head" and find out what outlets go out when you "test." If you have a few places where you might EXPECT faults you might want to have a separate GFCI there even if you have to put some others on the "string." Remember that most of your real loads are just two wires. Whether the outlet (or the house) as a good ground just doesn't make any difference. The GFprotectors at Harbor Freight are $6 for a 20 amp . Is that a good price or should I go to Lowes/Home Depot and get cartons of them? That's pretty good. For an actual outside ground that I could bring inside, I'd have to drive a rod into the ground. Then attack copperbraid to it and bring it inside to a terminal from which I can, with wire, connect that to the circuit box. (At least that's how it was done many years ago, when a single room on the house where I grew up was rewired. Here though, about all it will do is ground the panel.) There SHOULD be a ground at the meter and/or the service entrace. At this point neutral is bonded to ground. You find the "ground" that was bonded with the neutral at the service entrance or meter box and you make damn sure you bond any "extra" grounds (water pipe, extra rods) to that "official" ground. Using a cold water pipe, I don't think will work. Correct me if I am wrong. As soon as it goes out of the house, it connects to the city mains by plastic pipe. Duh! What's the best way to get a copy of the code for my city, without raising any questions as to what I am doing? Unless it's a very small town, you just go to where the permits are issued and ask. You don't need a reason: it should be a public document. |
#19
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No grounds in my 1950 house
Yeah, off to get GFCI, now just have to decided between 15 or 20 amps.
I see at the panel both kind of breakers. My father-in-law, a retired electrician who wired large warehouses and the like, just cursed and cursed as he worked--finally giving up on some things. The panel he put in is a 100 amp with a main. Can I count on that to kill the power to the breaker box if I'm going to be fooling around in it trying to establish a ground? In looking at the power meters, I can see no sign of a ground--anywhere. They must have used water pipe? I see a stranded, heavy wire that goes to the meter, but don't know if that's supposed to be a ground/neutral or just there to hold up the other two wires. Yeah--duh! All the water pipe in the house is no longer grounded--some since it ran into PVC was never grounded. The reason for using plastic (PVC or whatever it's called) to the city mains is because the hard water here eats real pipe like it was candy. People with metal pipe have to replace it every five years or so. Those with PVC seems to last 10-15. So all the plumbers put in that in this area. John Gilmer wrote: My best bet then is to go out and buy a bunch of 20 amp GFCI from Harbor Freight? --will they work without being grounded? Yes. You are supposed to label the outlets as not being grounded but the label, obviously, doesn't protect anyone. I hope the GFCIs will protect me at least to the point of a fault and subsequent shock, not kill me. Do I need one--at the head outlet (if I can find it--suggestions as how to do that?) or replace everyt receptical throught the house and mark them, ungrounded? Well, you can start at the "head" and find out what outlets go out when you "test." If you have a few places where you might EXPECT faults you might want to have a separate GFCI there even if you have to put some others on the "string." Remember that most of your real loads are just two wires. Whether the outlet (or the house) as a good ground just doesn't make any difference. The GFprotectors at Harbor Freight are $6 for a 20 amp . Is that a good price or should I go to Lowes/Home Depot and get cartons of them? That's pretty good. For an actual outside ground that I could bring inside, I'd have to drive a rod into the ground. Then attack copperbraid to it and bring it inside to a terminal from which I can, with wire, connect that to the circuit box. (At least that's how it was done many years ago, when a single room on the house where I grew up was rewired. Here though, about all it will do is ground the panel.) There SHOULD be a ground at the meter and/or the service entrace. At this point neutral is bonded to ground. You find the "ground" that was bonded with the neutral at the service entrance or meter box and you make damn sure you bond any "extra" grounds (water pipe, extra rods) to that "official" ground. Using a cold water pipe, I don't think will work. Correct me if I am wrong. As soon as it goes out of the house, it connects to the city mains by plastic pipe. Duh! What's the best way to get a copy of the code for my city, without raising any questions as to what I am doing? Unless it's a very small town, you just go to where the permits are issued and ask. You don't need a reason: it should be a public document. |
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