Constant-temperature dehumidification
 

Joe Fischer errs again:

Yesterday and today I had to run both heat and
AC, that is the only way to deal with the exceptional
high humidity both days.

No. It would be more energy-efficient to run a dehumidifier when
you need heat and an AC when you need cooling,

The temperature was ok, I don't have a dehumidifier,

Put one $80 AC in a window and one in the house. Wire the window AC to
the close-on-rise contact of Grainger's $16 2E158 SPDT thermostat and
the other to the close-on-fall contact. Run the common contact to
Grainger's $31 2E453 (Autoflo 052000) humidistat.

and warming the air lowers humidity more efficiently than a dehumidifier.

Warming air lowers the RH, but it doesn't remove any water vapor.

I run a humidifier anytime the outdoor temperature
is below 40 degrees...

Your house needs air sealing.

moist air feels warmer than dry, and
a steam humidifier is efficient use of heat.

Winter humidification uses about 10X more heat energy than it can save.

It is rare to have 90 percent humidity in the house,
and the quickest way to reduce it to improve breathing
is likely the most efficient.

Hey, a new rule of thumb: "the quickest way is the most efficient" :-)

Nick

Constant-temperature dehumidification
 

we do this innane sort of dehumidification in my work place, because
they are too cheap to buy the dessciacnt dehumidifiers that we realy
need, so instead they spens tens of thousands of dollars a year on
running heat and AC at the same time.

Empressess #124457


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wrote:
Joe Fischer errs again:

Yesterday and today I had to run both heat and
AC, that is the only way to deal with the exceptional
high humidity both days.

No. It would be more energy-efficient to run a dehumidifier when
you need heat and an AC when you need cooling,

The temperature was ok, I don't have a dehumidifier,

Put one $80 AC in a window and one in the house. Wire the window AC to
the close-on-rise contact of Grainger's $16 2E158 SPDT thermostat and
the other to the close-on-fall contact. Run the common contact to
Grainger's $31 2E453 (Autoflo 052000) humidistat.

and warming the air lowers humidity more efficiently than a dehumidifier.

Warming air lowers the RH, but it doesn't remove any water vapor.

I run a humidifier anytime the outdoor temperature
is below 40 degrees...

Your house needs air sealing.

moist air feels warmer than dry, and
a steam humidifier is efficient use of heat.

Winter humidification uses about 10X more heat energy than it can save.

It is rare to have 90 percent humidity in the house,
and the quickest way to reduce it to improve breathing
is likely the most efficient.

Hey, a new rule of thumb: "the quickest way is the most efficient" :-)

Nick

Constant-temperature dehumidification
 

On 19 Sep 2006 06:13:05 -0400, wrote:

Joe Fischer errs again:
Yesterday and today I had to run both heat and
AC, that is the only way to deal with the exceptional
high humidity both days.

No. It would be more energy-efficient to run a dehumidifier when
you need heat and an AC when you need cooling,

The temperature was ok, I don't have a dehumidifier,

Put one $80 AC in a window and one in the house. Wire the window AC to
the close-on-rise contact of Grainger's $16 2E158 SPDT thermostat and
the other to the close-on-fall contact. Run the common contact to
Grainger's $31 2E453 (Autoflo 052000) humidistat.

Thanks for the off-the-shelf engineering, but this
was a one day thing.

and warming the air lowers humidity more efficiently than a dehumidifier.

Warming air lowers the RH, but it doesn't remove any water vapor.

Relative humidity is the important thing, the amount
of moisture in the air is meaningless, the amount of water
the air can hold relative to the amount of water in the air
is relative humidity.

I run a humidifier anytime the outdoor temperature
is below 40 degrees...

Your house needs air sealing.

Not really, the sensitive membranes in my nose
need sealing.

And that is one of the reasons I try to avoid
using the Cozy space heaters, they change the air
in the house very often, and even warn that space
for incoming air be provided.

moist air feels warmer than dry, and
a steam humidifier is efficient use of heat.

Winter humidification uses about 10X more heat energy than it can save.

Not a chance, the few hundred watts the humidifier
uses simply replaces the electric baseboard heat used.

It is rare to have 90 percent humidity in the house,
and the quickest way to reduce it to improve breathing
is likely the most efficient.

Hey, a new rule of thumb: "the quickest way is the most efficient" :-)
Nick

For one day only, of course.

Joe Fischer

Constant-temperature dehumidification
 

Joe Fischer errs again:

I run a humidifier anytime the outdoor temperature
is below 40 degrees...

Your house needs air sealing.

Not really, the sensitive membranes in my nose
need sealing.

Any house that needs winter humidification needs air sealing.

moist air feels warmer than dry, and
a steam humidifier is efficient use of heat.

Winter humidification uses about 10X more heat energy than it can save.

Not a chance, the few hundred watts the humidifier
uses simply replaces the electric baseboard heat used.

Houses leak air. Especially your house :-) Lennox stopped advertising that
winter humidification saves energy after I convinced their engineering VP
that it uses 10X more than it can save.

Nick

Constant-temperature dehumidification
 

Constant-temperature dehumidification
 

On 19 Sep wrote:

Joe Fischer errs again:
I run a humidifier anytime the outdoor temperature
is below 40 degrees...

Your house needs air sealing.

Not really, the sensitive membranes in my nose
need sealing.

Any house that needs winter humidification needs air sealing.

You need to study more about relative humidity,
and about the differences in people's nasal passages.
I would not be able to use the Cozy space heaters
if I sealed the house, they need to draft up the chimney.
Maybe you are too young to have seen a furnace
that uses indoor air for the flame?


moist air feels warmer than dry, and
a steam humidifier is efficient use of heat.

Winter humidification uses about 10X more heat energy than it can save.

Energy used is not even an issue with my nose,
and I have decades of experience with it.

Your number of 10 X is so absurd that it would be
laughable if you were not contaminating minds.

Not a chance, the few hundred watts the humidifier
uses simply replaces the electric baseboard heat used.

Houses leak air.

It is essential that the air in a house is changed at
least every 2 or 3 hours, and much more often with
some kinds of heating appliances.

A major factor in my decision to try to get by
with electric baseboard heat is the reduced number
of times the air in the house changes in 24 hours,
because one Cosy stove has the flue pipe removed
and the flue blocked (and nailed shut to keep the
chimney birds in the chimney).
And I won't light the pilot on the other stove
until the temperature goes below 20 degrees F.

Especially your house :-)

It is 111 years old, so what else is new?

Lennox stopped advertising that
winter humidification saves energy after I convinced their engineering VP
that it uses 10X more than it can save.
Nick

How did you do that, with BS or numbers?

I don't like the fan humidifiers, they need a
chemical added to the water and the water changed
every day. It is easier to change the water with a
steam humidifier, and as long as I am using electric
resistance heat anyway, your number does not apply,
no matter how low you revise it.

If doctors were to advise patients who get
head colds every winter to humidify when the
outdoor temperature is below 40 degrees F, the
number of head colds would be reduced by at
least half, and maybe as much as 80 percent less.

For those who may have believed your
mistaken opinion, I will explain why indoor air
relative humidity drops dramatically with lower
outdoor temperatures, and why humidifiers
make it seem warmer and why temperatures
are more stable with 50 percent relative humidity
indoors all winter.

The air in all house changes, and there is
a definite number of times it needs to change,
the type of heat determines that, but a house
should never be sealed so tight that it takes longer
than 3 hours to change completely.
(Check the furnace or heater instructions).

As the air changes, outdoor air that has
a relative humidity of 40 percent at 30 degrees F
that is warmed to 70 degrees F undergoes a
change in relativity humidity according to well
know charts showing how much water air at
those temperatures can hold.

At lower outdoor temperatures and
lower out door humidity, the indoor humidity
can become very low, as low as 10 percent or
less, even without any removal of water vapor.

Warm air __CAN__ hold more water,
and cooler air can only hold so much less, and
that is why _relativity_ changes when outdoor
air replaces indoor air in winter.

This is a health issue, for a large number
of people, while others have no problem at all
with head colds or sore throats in winter.
It is not an energy efficiency issue, not
a home repair issue (as long as health comes before
minor moisture damage), it is not a frugal living
issue if the doctor visit costs more than all other
associated costs, and it is not a homepower issue,
it is a health issue, so I don't know why even a
trouble maker like you would crosspost so many
groups. :-)

I already posted the effects of low relativity
humidity on sensitive nasal membranes, and already
posted the explanation of how moisture in fabrics
in the house is drawn from the fabrics as air dries,
carrying germs, and is breathed, and the germs
are able to get a foothold in the nasal membranes
of people who do have that sensitivity problem.

So a shallow consideration of only energy
used and it's effect on air temperature is not pertinent.

But moist air carries more BTU per pound
than dry air, even though moist air occupies more
space per pound.
Between cycles of the furnace, moist air
resists cooling more than dry air in the same period
of time.
And warm moist air feels warmer than warm
dry air, although this is pretty much a personal
judgement issue. (Moist cool air feels colder than
dry cool air).

All this together makes your meddling in
the marketing practices of a company with decades
of experience in heating and cooling, despicable,
in my opinion.
When I had a house with central air, I
bought and installed a self filling humidifier from
Sears, and it make a big difference in comfort
at the same temperature settings.

So study about relative humidity, how
warming air changes the relativity without any
change in the amount of water it contains, and
the harmful effects that can have on the health
of certain people.
And also study how air too dry can
damage furniture, woodwork and other
materials, just as much as air too moist.

Joe Fischer

Constant-temperature dehumidification
 

On Tue, 19 Sep wrote:

On Tue, 19 Sep 2006 12:22:04 -0400, in misc.consumers.frugal-living Joe Fischer
wrote:
If doctors were to advise patients who get
head colds every winter to humidify when the
outdoor temperature is below 40 degrees F, the
number of head colds would be reduced by at
least half, and maybe as much as 80 percent less.

I find this very hard to believe.

Sorry for not removing the crossposting.

People who do not get head colds will not
be able to test it. The action of moisture changes
and migration out of fabrics is very complex, and
doctors are trained to treat the human body, not
to try to understand every chemical, physical or
other discipline.

I never had any problem with my nose
(head cold) in Las Vegas all one summer back
when relativity was below one percent there
when the temperature was greater than 110 F.

But when I rented a pool house in Pasadena
in January and it got down to 33 degrees one night
and I turned on the gas wall heater, I got an awful
head cold.

This gives the head cold sufferers something
to try, steam humidifiers (vaporizers) are available
at Walmart for less than $20, and I would give
$20 any day not to get a head cold.

I don't have to pay for doctor visits, but
many people do, so saving that expenditure is
worth some effort.

Joe Fischer

Constant-temperature dehumidification
 

Joseph Meehan wrote:

Any house that needs winter humidification needs air sealing.

Not always...

I'd say always. Andersen says an average family of 4 puts about 2 gallons
per day of water (16.7 pounds) into house air. In an absolutely airtight
house, the RH would rise to 100% near windows with wintertime condensation.

ASHRAE says houses need 15 cfm of fresh air per full-time occupant, so
4 half-time occupants need 30 cfm at 0.075 lb/ft^3, ie 30x60mx24hx0.075
= 3240 lb/day of fresh air. January outdoor air in Phila has an average
humidity ratio wo = 0.0032 pounds of water per pound of dry air. If minimal
ventilation with no condensation removes 3240(wi-wo) = 16.7 lb/day of water
from the house, wi = 0.00834, and 70 F air at 100% RH has w = 0.0158, so
the house RH would be about 100wi/w = 53% with minimal ventilation, or more,
with a small efficient air-air heat exchanger with outgoing condensation.

Keeping the RH 60% (wi = 0.00948) means condensing 3240(wi-wo)-16.7 = 2.03
lb/day (2 pints) or 0.085 lb/h of water from the outgoing air, with a latent
heat of 1000x0.085 = 85 Btu/h (about 25 watts--not much), ie lowering the
outgoing humidity ratio to 0.00834 at 100% RH, ie lowering its temperature
to about 52 F. If we recover 90% of the heat, E = 0.9 = 1-e^-NTU, so the
Number of heat Transfer Units NTU = -ln(0.1) = 2.3 = AU/Cmin, where A is
the heat transfer area in ft^2, U is its film conductance in Btu/h-F-ft^2,
and Cmin is the heat capacity flow rate in Btu/h-F.

U = 2 and Cmin = 30 make A = 2.3x30/2 = 35 ft^2, so we might preheat
incoming 30 F outdoor air with a small fan pulling outgoing 70 F air
between 48 1'x1'x1/8" Coroplast sheets in a 1' cube with A = 96 ft^2
and NTU = 6.4 and E = 1-e^-6.4 = 99.8% heat recovery. The condensation
might drip onto a large green plant that re-evaporates it.

An average US house naturally leaks about 200 cfm. A 2400 ft^2 house
that meets the Canadian IDEAS (post R2000) standard would naturally
leak 2.5 cfm.

Nick

Constant-temperature dehumidification
 

On Tue, 19 Sep 2006 10:48:44 -0700, wrote:

On Tue, 19 Sep 2006 Joe Fischer wrote:
.............
This gives the head cold sufferers something
to try, steam humidifiers (vaporizers) are available
at Walmart for less than $20, and I would give
$20 any day not to get a head cold.

I don't have to pay for doctor visits, but
many people do, so saving that expenditure is
worth some effort.

Every September when the kids go back to school we all get colds.

Is it when the kids go back to school, or when the
heating season starts?

I don't think
fiddling with the humidity in the house is going to change that.

Maybe not, there are other reasons for head colds,
that everyone may be subject to, even if humidity is ok,
chills, not enough sleep, close contact with others who
have colds.


Besides for 9
months out of the year the humidity here is nearly 100% in these parts and those
are the 9 months we are all sick.

The outside humidity doesn't matter, having
heat on in the house does.

Currently it's 57 °F with 77% Humidity (the
sun is shining) and we all have runny noses from head colds.

Makes me feel bad just to hear about it.

I try to stay away from people with colds,
but that would be difficult for kids in school.
While I would like to use as little heating fuel
as possible, I feel comfort and health are important,
so I keep the house warm, and I don't usually worry
about humidity until the temperature goes down to
40 F, and even then, I only run the humidifier at
night as long as it stays above 10 degrees F.

Trying to get by with too little heat can cause
more colds, but once it starts, there is no way to tell
what caused it.

I had a weightlifter friend who never had
a head cold, until we stayed up all night playing cards,
and that did it, at least that is what he blamed it on.

Maybe I should have mentioned, it is the
changes in humidity that cause the problem, being
that I always humidify when a humidistat shows
it needs it, I don't have the big changes in humidity.

Even in a spic and span clean house, the
changes in humidity can cause problems, almost
everything from expensive furniture to fabrics
last longer if humidity is kept at a constant 50 percent
RH, although experts may recommend 40 or 45.

It should be worth discussing with the family
and see if each one has any ideas on where or what causes
each cold, I know I am completely miserable, even totally
incapacitated from it at times.
Some people can go outside in shirt sleeves in
50 degree weather, but not me. If the water is changed
daily in the Vicks vaporizer in my bedroom, it only costs
me about $12 a year to buy a new vaporizer.
Doctors will recommend a vaporizer after a
person gets a cold, better to get the vaporizer before
the cold and save the doctor bill.

Joe Fischer

Constant-temperature dehumidification
 

Joe Fischer wrote:

Maybe you are too young to have seen a furnace
that uses indoor air for the flame?

No, but I may be less senile than you are :-)

Lennox stopped advertising that winter humidification saves energy
after I convinced their engineering VP that it uses 10X more than
it can save.

How did you do that, with BS or numbers?

With numbers. Bull****ting engineering VPs isn't easy. I started with
the president/legal department and worked my way down.

For those who may have believed your mistaken opinion,
I will explain why indoor air relative humidity drops dramatically
with lower outdoor temperatures...

Yawn.

Nick

Constant-temperature dehumidification
 

On Tue, 19 Sep 2006 14:35:51 -0400, Joe Fischer
wrote:


there are other reasons for head colds,
that everyone may be subject to, even if humidity is ok,
chills, not enough sleep,

LOL Let me guess... wet hair as well?

close contact with others who
have colds.

Bingo. Forget the other stuff.

Trying to get by with too little heat can cause
more colds, but once it starts, there is no way to tell
what caused it.

You need to do some reading before spreading old-wives' tales.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_cold

I had a weightlifter friend who never had
a head cold, until we stayed up all night playing cards,
and that did it, at least that is what he blamed it on.

My mother-in-law used to claim that all the bad weather started after
they sent up Sputnik.

Wayne

Constant-temperature dehumidification
 

wrote in message
oups.com...
we do this innane sort of dehumidification in my work place, because
they are too cheap to buy the dessciacnt dehumidifiers that we realy
need, so instead they spens tens of thousands of dollars a year on
running heat and AC at the same time.

Empressess #124457


Have you priced what it would cost in dessicant dehumidifiers and/or the
cost to regenerate the dessicant (it has to be heated to drive off the
moisture absorbed in it).

As nick pointed out, the cheapest way to remove humidity is with a
dehumidifier. The heat removed from the moisture is dumped back into the
room. Running the A/C dumps heat outside and has to be replaced by running
the heater. VERY BAD idea.

daestrom

Constant-temperature dehumidification
 

"Joe Fischer" wrote in message
...
On 19 Sep 2006 06:13:05 -0400, wrote:

Joe Fischer errs again:
Yesterday and today I had to run both heat and
AC, that is the only way to deal with the exceptional
high humidity both days.

No. It would be more energy-efficient to run a dehumidifier when
you need heat and an AC when you need cooling,

The temperature was ok, I don't have a dehumidifier,

Put one $80 AC in a window and one in the house. Wire the window AC to
the close-on-rise contact of Grainger's $16 2E158 SPDT thermostat and
the other to the close-on-fall contact. Run the common contact to
Grainger's $31 2E453 (Autoflo 052000) humidistat.

Thanks for the off-the-shelf engineering, but this
was a one day thing.

and warming the air lowers humidity more efficiently than a dehumidifier.

Warming air lowers the RH, but it doesn't remove any water vapor.

Relative humidity is the important thing, the amount
of moisture in the air is meaningless, the amount of water
the air can hold relative to the amount of water in the air
is relative humidity.


Actually it's more complicated. Partial pressure of water vapor in air and
the partial pressure of any standing water determine evaporation/drying
rate. Human sinuses have 'water' that stays at the same temperature (unless
you're running a fever), so the partial pressure of water vapor in air is
pretty much it. And the pp of water vapor is saturation pressure for the
dry bulb temperature times the RH. Heating air doesn't change the pp of
water vapor (saturation pressure rises as much as RH drops).

Surely you've noticed that running the heat up high in the winter doesn't do
anything for your sinuses. Humidification (raising the pp of water vapor)
does.

Trouble is, the partial pressure of water vapor is not readily measured. It
can be calculated from RH and dry bulb temperature. (find the saturation
pressure of water at the dry bulb temperature, then multiply by RH). The
next best thing is to track the dew point. When you heat air, the dew point
doesn't change. Hot air is better at drying 'things' because the hot air
provides more energy to evaporate the liquid.

This winter, rather than track the RH as my house temperature rises/falls
(set-back thermostat), I plan on tracking the dew point. I suspect it will
give me much more consistent data.

snip

moist air feels warmer than dry, and
a steam humidifier is efficient use of heat.

Winter humidification uses about 10X more heat energy than it can save.

Not a chance, the few hundred watts the humidifier
uses simply replaces the electric baseboard heat used.


It's not just the electric to power the humidifier, it is also the energy to
evaporate the water. With many simple humidifiers, that energy comes from
the air blowing through it. So the furnace works harder to heat the air
back up again.

Yes, it's certainly more comfortable (I have problems with wintertime
humidity as well). And the human body 'feels' comfortable when the heat
losses through convection and evaporation are matched to our optimum value.
Lowering evaporation heat loss (by raising the dew point) can allow for
slight increase in convection losses (setting the thermostat down a degree
or two). But it's very subjective.

daestrom

Constant-temperature dehumidification
 

"wmbjk" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 19 Sep 2006 14:35:51 -0400, Joe Fischer
wrote:


there are other reasons for head colds,
that everyone may be subject to, even if humidity is ok,
chills, not enough sleep,

LOL Let me guess... wet hair as well?

close contact with others who
have colds.

Bingo. Forget the other stuff.


Here in NY, when the kids go back to school you can bet on them catching
colds. Before the heating season starts. Just all those kids confined in a
classroom for 5-6 hours, with some individuals with questionable hygiene
almost guarantees it.

But the 'heating season' does have a contributing factor. Less ventilation
in a house means virii are not dispersed as quickly.

And although I haven't seen any definitive studies, it does seem that dried
out sinuses are more susceptible to infection. But that's just my own
anecdotal observation.

daestrom

Constant-temperature dehumidification
 

On Tue, 19 Sep 2006 19:49:05 GMT, "daestrom"
wrote:

As nick pointed out, the cheapest way to remove humidity is with a
dehumidifier. The heat removed from the moisture is dumped back into the
room. Running the A/C dumps heat outside and has to be replaced by running
the heater. VERY BAD idea.

Modern A/Cs do not drip water because they port
the condensate out to the warm side and either spray it
on warm parts or immerse the motor housing and tubing
in it.
Note that the only day in the entire year where
I found it necessary was not a hot day, it was a quite
cool day, cool enough that heat could be used.

Of course if there is a place that has that much
moisture much of the time, they need dehumidifiers.

A house with a wooden floor and basement
or crawl space should not normally be damp enough
to need dehumidification, it is slab homes and
basements that need it.

Before the condensate from an A/C was
evaporated outside, an average size A/C would
sometimes condense more water per hour than
three or four dehumidifiers.
And I assume the modern ones do - also.

Joe Fischer

Constant-temperature dehumidification
 

On Tue, 19 Sep 2006 20:34:06 GMT, "daestrom"
wrote:

........
But the 'heating season' does have a contributing factor. Less ventilation
in a house means virii are not dispersed as quickly.

There ain't none o' them thar virii on my house!

And although I haven't seen any definitive studies, it does seem that dried
out sinuses are more susceptible to infection. But that's just my own
anecdotal observation.
daestrom

I wish I could say it isn't so, but I have done 75 years
of definitive study of a nose making what sometimes seem
like a gallon an hour.

One way that I reduced the severity and length of
the cold is to use bounty towels instead of hankies or
Kleenex, and it helps keeping the nose from getting
so red and sore, I only use each one once and throw
it away.

It sounds like you and Nick did not appreciate
or understand what I posted about the absorption and
emission of water vapor from carpets and fabrics.

And there is a huge difference in noses, some (me)
actually have capillary bleeding if the air gets too dry,
sometimes a cold follows, sometimes not.

I can feel the drying of my sinus in a 20 mile
trip in the car with A/C set to 70 degrees on a hot day.

The problem is, studies may not show anything
definite about the nose, and the "disease" is not considered
serious enough to warrant serious study.
But I am surprised there is not definitive data
on the drying of expensive wood items, especially
antiques and artifacts.

So any company that sells humidifiers should
keep on selling, and advertise what they do for wood
and fabrics, if not for people or noses.
I don't have any fine wood items, but I have
a nose that has a lot of influence on my H, V, and A/C.

Maybe it would be nice if you could share
a little of your open mindedness with Nick. :-)

Joe Fischer

Constant-temperature dehumidification
 

On Tue, 19 Sep 2006 19:43:59 GMT, wmbjk wrote:

On Tue, 19 Sep 2006 14:35:51 -0400, Joe Fischer
wrote:
there are other reasons for head colds,
that everyone may be subject to, even if humidity is ok,
chills, not enough sleep,

LOL Let me guess... wet hair as well?

I don't know, ask somebody who takes a bath.

close contact with others who
have colds.

Bingo. Forget the other stuff.

Sorry, Doctor, there may be colds that are "caught",
but mine come from inflamed sinus irritated by dry air.

Trying to get by with too little heat can cause
more colds, but once it starts, there is no way to tell
what caused it.

You need to do some reading before spreading old-wives' tales.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_cold

Glad you have such faith in articles written
by just anybody who wants to write or modify them.

The only old-wives tale I know of about dry
air is "sleep with the window open".
I tried that one night in a hotel in Lorain Ohio
in the winter of 62-63 and woke up with eight inches
of snow on the bed.

I had a weightlifter friend who never had
a head cold, until we stayed up all night playing cards,
and that did it, at least that is what he blamed it on.

My mother-in-law used to claim that all the bad weather started after
they sent up Sputnik.
Wayne

That's right, it was a long cold war, too, but
thankfully not many on either side died in battle.

Joe Fischer

Constant-temperature dehumidification
 

On Tue, 19 Sep 2006 20:08:24 GMT, "daestrom"
wrote:

"Joe Fischer" wrote in message
.. .
On 19 Sep 2006 06:13:05 -0400, wrote:
Warming air lowers the RH, but it doesn't remove any water vapor.

Relative humidity is the important thing, the amount
of moisture in the air is meaningless, the amount of water
the air can hold relative to the amount of water in the air
is relative humidity.

Actually it's more complicated.

I am sure it is, I wondered about it ever since I saw
a meteorologist put cotton on a thermometer and swing
it round and round in 1946.

Partial pressure of water vapor in air and
the partial pressure of any standing water determine evaporation/drying
rate. Human sinuses have 'water' that stays at the same temperature (unless
you're running a fever), so the partial pressure of water vapor in air is
pretty much it.

Sure, but breathing through the nose moves a lot
of air over the same tissue. I won't go into Bernoulli
or Venturi.

And the pp of water vapor is saturation pressure for the
dry bulb temperature times the RH. Heating air doesn't change the pp of
water vapor (saturation pressure rises as much as RH drops).

Please don't say that carpeting doesn't dry out if wet. :-)

Surely you've noticed that running the heat up high in the winter doesn't do
anything for your sinuses.

It sure does, it makes them bleed, and feel like the
tissue is stretched. Then a few hours later they start
producing moisture.

Humidification (raising the pp of water vapor) does.

And you base this on the next sentence?

Trouble is, the partial pressure of water vapor is not readily measured.

Try running a cool air humidifier, and see that
it stops evaporating water after a certain humidity.
I use a steam humidifier so I can go to higher RH.

It
can be calculated from RH and dry bulb temperature. (find the saturation
pressure of water at the dry bulb temperature, then multiply by RH). The
next best thing is to track the dew point. When you heat air, the dew point
doesn't change. Hot air is better at drying 'things' because the hot air
provides more energy to evaporate the liquid.

Yes, I have read many of the papers by Einstein
on specific heat and latent heats.

This winter, rather than track the RH as my house temperature rises/falls
(set-back thermostat), I plan on tracking the dew point. I suspect it will
give me much more consistent data.

You are more of a scientist than I want to be
to keep a nose dry. :-)

snip

moist air feels warmer than dry, and
a steam humidifier is efficient use of heat.

Winter humidification uses about 10X more heat energy than it can save.

Not a chance, the few hundred watts the humidifier
uses simply replaces the electric baseboard heat used.

It's not just the electric to power the humidifier, it is also the energy to
evaporate the water. With many simple humidifiers, that energy comes from
the air blowing through it. So the furnace works harder to heat the air
back up again.

Which is another reason I use a steam vaporizer,
I try to put at least 2 gallons of water in the air on a cold
night, and I only do this in my room, the rest of the
house doesn't matter.

I really need to avoid colds and trips to the doctor.

Yes, it's certainly more comfortable (I have problems with wintertime
humidity as well). And the human body 'feels' comfortable when the heat
losses through convection and evaporation are matched to our optimum value.
Lowering evaporation heat loss (by raising the dew point) can allow for
slight increase in convection losses (setting the thermostat down a degree
or two). But it's very subjective.
daestrom

In order to try to conserve (prompted by the rise
in retail natural gas last fall), I am only heating my room,
the kitchen and the bath.
I wouldn't heat the kitchen but I can feel the
convection drafts as the cool air moves into my room.

I really should build a balcony in my room and
put the bed and computer and TV on it as I have
eleven foot ceilings. I bought some 36 inch balloons
that I am going to fill with air (not helium, I talk
funny enough now), and put screw-eyes in the wood
strips on the ceiling and pull them up with a string,
and if the air leaks out I will be able to let them down
to fill them.

Every house and every person is different, my
house was designed originally as two large rooms with
a double fireplace in the common wall, and if it were
not for that fireplace, the house would have floated
away when the river was up to the peak of the roof
in January 1937.

Houses with working fireplaces can't safely
be sealed air tight, even if air tight is just a figure
of speech.

Actually, the faster the air changes, the
higher the relative humidity may be )without
a humidifier), I really haven't considered
that though, I need it warm, and I want to
conserve in a reasonable and rational way.

Joe Fischer

Constant-temperature dehumidification
 

If you need to know how much moisture is in the air then you need to know
the (GRAINS PER POUND) of water in the air. You can also use the dew point
if you know what you are looking for but the GPP works better.
http://www.humiditysource.com/RH_101.html
The formula is on the page above. We have special equipment at work that
does the math for you. They also make slide rule or disks that you can set
to the temperature and the RH that will give you the GPP.


You can also buy (LGR) low grain refrigerant dehumidifyer. They come really
close in removeing moisture compared to desicates.
Take a look at http://www.dryitup.com
There is some links there for dehumidifier manufacturers.

I hope this helps..

Joe
IICRC Water Restoration master.
Yes I dry out buildings for a living...

Constant-temperature dehumidification
 

Constant-temperature dehumidification
 

On 19 Sep 2006 14:57:58 -0400, wrote:

Joe Fischer wrote:
Maybe you are too young to have seen a furnace
that uses indoor air for the flame?

No, but I may be less senile than you are :-)

Unfortunately you'll catch up.

Lennox stopped advertising that winter humidification saves energy
after I convinced their engineering VP that it uses 10X more than
it can save.

How did you do that, with BS or numbers?

With numbers. Bull****ting engineering VPs isn't easy. I started with
the president/legal department and worked my way down.

For those who may have believed your mistaken opinion,
I will explain why indoor air relative humidity drops dramatically
with lower outdoor temperatures...

Yawn.
Nick

Buildings today seem to be getting away from
natural and passive systems and moving toward more
complex active systems that require energy.
My house has transoms, but they were painted
shut when A/C became available and never used again.

In 1943 I was assistant manager of an 800 seat
theater, and it had a passive warm weather ventilation
system that I had no appreciation for at the time.
The roof had a center section that was higher,
and windows tilted in on both side walls of that high
section. There were huge vent ducts which were
not noticeable with floor grilles.
With a large crowd, the heat generated per
person increased the natural convection out those
top windows, drawing air in the hidden floor ducts.
On really hot days there were huge low speed
fans in those ducts, but they rarely were needed.

If removing moisture with dehumidifiers for
a family of four in a home in winter is an engineering
problem in the classroom, then there a lot of homes
that are apparently too moist, because there are few
if any dehumidifiers used in homes other than in
basements or laundry rooms.

There was a program on TV a few years ago
that showed a southern home with the same type of
natural ventilation as the theater I mentioned.
And there has been some mention that
some pyramids were constructed the same way.

Passive solar and natural convection ventilation
systems seem to have been replaced by more positive
systems that require energy, but that do provide more
capacity at any time (as long as the grid is up).

Joe Fischer

Constant-temperature dehumidification
 

Joe Fischer wrote:

My house has transoms, but they were painted
shut when A/C became available and never used again.

Perhaps you should unglue them. The post-occupation French word
for "transom" is "Wasistdas."

In 1943 I was assistant manager of an 800 seat
theater, and it had a passive warm weather ventilation
system that I had no appreciation for at the time.
The roof had a center section that was higher,
and windows tilted in on both side walls of that high
section. There were huge vent ducts which were
not noticeable with floor grilles.
With a large crowd, the heat generated per
person increased the natural convection out those
top windows, drawing air in the hidden floor ducts.

Cool. Where did the air come from?

Nick

Constant-temperature dehumidification
 

On Tue, 19 Sep 2006 18:16:07 -0400, Joe Fischer
wrote:

On Tue, 19 Sep 2006 19:43:59 GMT, wmbjk wrote:

close contact with others who
have colds.

Bingo. Forget the other stuff.

Sorry, Doctor, there may be colds that are "caught",
but mine come from inflamed sinus irritated by dry air.

No, that's just what you *believe*.

You need to do some reading before spreading old-wives' tales.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_cold

Glad you have such faith in articles written
by just anybody who wants to write or modify them.

sigh http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/com...056/DSECTION=3
Although I predict that you won't believe the Mayo Clinic either. The
fact is that the cause of the common cold has been known for a long
time. Unfortunately, a lot of people insist on spreading nonsense
instead.

Wayne

Constant-temperature dehumidification
 

On 20 Sep 2006 05:39:06 -0400, wrote:

Joe Fischer wrote:
.......
The roof had a center section that was higher,
and windows tilted in on both side walls of that high
section. There were huge vent ducts which were
not noticeable with floor grilles.
With a large crowd, the heat generated per
person increased the natural convection out those
top windows, drawing air in the hidden floor ducts.

Cool. Where did the air come from?
Nick

From large inverted J ducts on the roof, like
those seen on ships.

Everything was so automatic, needing very
little attention, even though I was the only person
besides the cashier and projectionists there, nothing
required my intervention except opening the top
windows seasonally and tapping on the air traps
on the low pressure steam radiators to get steam
to them occasionally in heating season.

A freeway took the site in 1962.

Joe Fischer

Constant-temperature dehumidification
 

On Wed, wmbjk wrote:

On Tue, 19 Sep 2006 18:16:07 -0400, Joe Fischer
wrote:
.........
You need to do some reading before spreading old-wives' tales.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_cold

Glad you have such faith in articles written
by just anybody who wants to write or modify them.

sigh http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/com...056/DSECTION=3

You gave a wiki link and had to switch to Mayo. :-)

Although I predict that you won't believe the Mayo Clinic either.

As much as any medical institution, I do,
but nobody is perfect.

The
fact is that the cause of the common cold has been known for a long
time. Unfortunately, a lot of people insist on spreading nonsense
instead.
Wayne

And those of us who know the most frequent cause
of head colds don't get them unless we neglect to maintain
the steam humidifier, or get chilled, or not get enough sleep,
or get too close to somebody who has a cold and doesn't
try to contain the germs.

I didn't say that germs are not involved, in fact,
I said germs are involved and that a steam humidifier
does a lot to prevent irritation of sensitive membranes
in the airway.

Apparently you assumed Mayo Clinic to be
more perfect than they themselves believe, as shown;

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/com...056/DSECTION=4

from your link.

I do other things besides run the humidifier,
if I get chilled or get a ticklish throat, I put salt in
my mouth in lieu of gargling salt water, I take an
extra vitamin pill, and I moisten my mouth and
breath in through my mouth and out my nose,
which puts moist air across the dry membranes
of both throat and nose.

The important thing is to try to do something
about it before it gets to the point of being a full
blown head cold.
I can only remember the last 75 winters,
of which only the last 55 apply to my suggestion,
as the places I lived before that didn't have
forced air heat.
If I run the steam humidifier to maintain
50 percent relative humidity at night, that helps
prevent not only irritated nasal membranes, but
also migration of germs from carpet and fabrics
drying out.
Fifty percent relativity is just an easy to
maintain number, possibly in a clean house
any constant relative humidity that does not
irritate the sensitive nasal or airway passages
would do as well. (Constant RH!)

JoeFischer

Constant-temperature dehumidification
 

wrote:
wrote:

On Tue, 19 Sep 2006 12:22:04 -0400, in misc.consumers.frugal-living Joe Fischer
wrote:

If doctors were to advise patients who get
head colds every winter to humidify when the
outdoor temperature is below 40 degrees F, the
number of head colds would be reduced by at
least half, and maybe as much as 80 percent less.


I find this very hard to believe.

You might find it so, but the experience of a lot of us who have moved
south gives it a lot of credence. In Vermont, I used to get at least
four colds a winter. In the humid south, catching a cold is a rare
event for me.

This would be easily explained if it was found that Vermonters have a
higher tendency to sneeze on each other, not wash hands often enough,
etc. Or maybe it's got nothing to do with Vermonters' habits or their
weather. I've lived in several climates and I've found that I'm more
likely to get sick when I've been around sick and/or contagious people.
Maybe it's them New Yawkers who come up to Vermont to ski that bring
their strange city germs.

I wonder what the rate of headcolds is among those of the "dry south"
compared to the "humid south"? This may shed light on the topic.

%MOD%

Constant-temperature dehumidification
 

wrote:

In Vermont, I used to get at least
four colds a winter. In the humid south, catching a cold is a rare
event for me.

I don't necessarily agree with the theory as to why, but I do agree
with the posit that proper humidifying can reduce the misery of moving
from one cold to another.

The latter is a factor not to be underestimated.

I once had a schoolteacher who insisted on keeping the window next to
me partly open all winter. Even when I was fighting a cold, he refused
to allow any change in seating arrangement or to let me wear my
overcoat (claiming the latter was disrespectful). There was no debating
his infallible logic. "Since you like science so much," he'd say, "you
should already know that cold, fresh air doesn't have any germs in it
and can't make you sick." It sure as hell seemed to prolong my
miserable recovery.

Now that I think about it, since I've been out of school and drink more
beer, I haven't been sick nearly as often.

%MOD%

Constant-temperature dehumidification
 

On 20 Sep 2006 11:45:08 -0700, wrote:

Now that I think about it, since I've been out of school and drink more
beer, I haven't been sick nearly as often.
%MOD%

Sure it's the beer, which seems to also make % look
like a letter character. :-)

It is pretty well known that A/C _can_ dry air
out enough to irritate throats and nasal airways, but
it is not the dry air, it is the rapid change indoors
where there is migration of irritants and germs
into the air that seems to be the problem.

The only head cold I had in two years in
Pasadena was in the pool house I rented and used
the gas wall heater.
I had to move out it was such a miserable
experience. The rest of the two years I rented
a room by the week in the small hotel on the
corner in front of the popular bar and club "Icehouse"
in 1964 and 1965.
It had steam heat, and had very constant
temperature and humidity and was very clean.

My experiences of waking up with burning
throat and sinus if I don't run the steam humidifier
on a night when it is below freezing, and some relief
if I run the hot water in the shower and breathe the
hot mist, is enough proof for me.

There is no way that doctors don't know that
the heating season causes head colds, but the things
that need repeated most, like "keep the humidity
constant" are the things not mentioned after a while,
just like the most popular selling item in a store is
never reordered.

Passive constant temperature homes need
lots of mass, and a heating system that controls
humidity.
Furnace companies would not have designed
furnaces and stoves with water tanks and circulating
mechanisms if there was not a known benefit from
keeping humidity from the wide swings.
While protecting wood and fabrics, there is
an often repeated suggestion, "set a can of water
on the stove", which seems to suggest it is widely
known that air drying out causes irritated airways
and head colds.
Humidity needs to be kept as close to 50 percent
as possible, and that means adding a lot of water in
heating season, even if it takes 1060 BTU per pound
to vaporize it.
Preservation of wood and fabric would be enough
to make the extra energy used worth it, if the furniture
needs replaced because it dries out and cracks is not
efficiency.

Who named this thread with "dehumidification"?

Joe Fischer

Constant-temperature dehumidification
 

Joe Fischer wrote:

Humidity needs to be kept as close to 50 percent as possible,
and that means adding a lot of water in heating season...

Not if your house is airtight.

Who named this thread with "dehumidification"?

Me.

Nick

Constant-temperature dehumidification
 

On 20 Sep 2006 wrote:

Joe Fischer wrote:
Humidity needs to be kept as close to 50 percent as possible,
and that means adding a lot of water in heating season...

Not if your house is airtight.

Oh, no, don't tell me you think that air can be warmed
up 50 or 60 degrees and still have the same relative humidity
without adding water.
You demonstrated knowledge of standards suggestions
for changing air, and your premise could only be valid if
there were no change of air at all.
Forget the water vapor and heat that people give off,
it isn't enough to make a difference unless it is dozens or
hundreds in a building.

Who named this thread with "dehumidification"?

Me.
Nick

It figures. :-)

In really thought your main premise was that it
doesn't pay to humidify if the cost of fuel for the latent
heat of vaporization is considered.
If you live in an ivy tower with thick walls, that
may reduce the temperature and humidity swings.
I lived in permanent housing at Randolph Field
(now Randolph Air Force Base) in all of 1948, and the
walls were more than 24 inches thick with poured
concrete floors, and even though the outdoor temperature
was cold enough at night to freeze rain on AT6
propellers and 80 by noon, the temperature inside
didn't change 2 degrees.
But houses are built in the worst way possible
to maintain constant temperature without considerable
heat added, and if heat is added, water must be added
to retain constant relative humidity, at least to the
extent that heat is added to raise migrating cold air
to indoor temperature.

Joe Fischer Quit adding groups!

Constant-temperature dehumidification
 

Joe Fischer wrote:

Humidity needs to be kept as close to 50 percent as possible,
and that means adding a lot of water in heating season...

Not if your house is airtight.

... don't tell me you think that air can be warmed up 50 or 60 degrees
and still have the same relative humidity without adding water.

I never wrote that. Are you delusional again? :-)

... your premise could only be valid if there were no change of air at all.

YOUR premise that winter humidification saves energy could only be valid
in that case.

In really thought your main premise was that it doesn't pay to humidify
if the cost of fuel for the latent heat of vaporization is considered.

Agreed, for non-airtight houses, in really thought :-)

Nick

Constant-temperature dehumidification
 

And what effect did that have, insulating the thermometer by wrapping
the bulb with dry cotton? Seems like it would read the temperature
much faster if the bulb wasn't insulated.

--

Christopher A. Young
You can't shout down a troll.
You have to starve them.
..

"Joe Fischer" wrote in message
...
Relative humidity is the important thing, the amount
of moisture in the air is meaningless, the amount of water
the air can hold relative to the amount of water in the air
is relative humidity.

Actually it's more complicated.

I am sure it is, I wondered about it ever since I saw
a meteorologist put cotton on a thermometer and swing
it round and round in 1946.

Partial pressure of water vapor in air and
the partial pressure of any standing water determine
evaporation/drying
rate. Human sinuses have 'water' that stays at the same temperature
(unless
you're running a fever), so the partial pressure of water vapor in
air is
pretty much it.

Sure, but breathing through the nose moves a lot
of air over the same tissue. I won't go into Bernoulli
or Venturi.

Constant-temperature dehumidification
 

On 20 Sep 2006 17:40:27 -0400, wrote:

Joe Fischer wrote:
Humidity needs to be kept as close to 50 percent as possible,
and that means adding a lot of water in heating season...

Not if your house is airtight.

... don't tell me you think that air can be warmed up 50 or 60 degrees
and still have the same relative humidity without adding water.

I never wrote that. Are you delusional again? :-)

You have a communication problem, if you want
to specify a house that will never be built, just say so.

... your premise could only be valid if there were no change of air at all.

YOUR premise that winter humidification saves energy could only be valid
in that case.

In really thought your main premise was that it doesn't pay to humidify
if the cost of fuel for the latent heat of vaporization is considered.

Agreed, for non-airtight houses, in really thought :-)
Nick

I really thought you were serious.

My premise is that protection of wood and fabrics
and health is part of any equation about costs.

Try your math on adding enough water to maintain
constant 50 percent relative humidity to change 10,000 cubic
feet of air every two hours (with zero people in the house).

Joe Fischer No pets or aquariums either.

Constant-temperature dehumidification
 

On Wed, 20 Sep 2006 21:56:08 GMT, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

And what effect did that have, insulating the thermometer by wrapping
the bulb with dry cotton? Seems like it would read the temperature
much faster if the bulb wasn't insulated.

Sorry, I didn't say the cotton was dry, it may have
been wet with water or even alcohol, I am not a trained
weather man. :-) I assume he was checking dew point,
but I am not certain. Moist air is lighter than dry air,
so dew point was important in several ways for Army Air
Force weather forecasting.

Joe Fischer

Constant-temperature dehumidification
 

wrote:

Joe Fischer wrote:

Humidity needs to be kept as close to 50 percent as possible,
and that means adding a lot of water in heating season...

Not if your house is airtight.

Airitght houses are very unhealthy.

Graham

Constant-temperature dehumidification
 

Stormin Mormon wrote:

And what effect did that have, insulating the
thermometer by wrapping the bulb with dry cotton?

Its wrapped in wet cotton, thats what the wet bulb temperature is.

Seems like it would read the temperature
much faster if the bulb wasn't insulated.

Yes, but its wet cotton, not dry.


"Joe Fischer" wrote in message
...
Relative humidity is the important thing, the amount
of moisture in the air is meaningless, the amount of water
the air can hold relative to the amount of water in the air
is relative humidity.

Actually it's more complicated.

I am sure it is, I wondered about it ever since I saw
a meteorologist put cotton on a thermometer and swing
it round and round in 1946.

Partial pressure of water vapor in air and
the partial pressure of any standing water determine
evaporation/drying rate. Human sinuses have 'water' that stays at
the same temperature (unless you're running a fever), so the partial
pressure of water vapor in air is pretty much it.

Sure, but breathing through the nose moves a lot
of air over the same tissue. I won't go into Bernoulli
or Venturi.

Constant-temperature dehumidification
 

Hot water huymidification techniques increase germ breeding and are
not recommended for sinus problems anymore. Welcome to the 90's


"Joe Fischer" wrote in message
...
On Wed, wmbjk wrote:

On Tue, 19 Sep 2006 18:16:07 -0400, Joe Fischer
wrote:
.........
You need to do some reading before spreading old-wives' tales.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_cold

Glad you have such faith in articles written
by just anybody who wants to write or modify them.

sigh
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/com...056/DSECTION=3

You gave a wiki link and had to switch to Mayo. :-)

Although I predict that you won't believe the Mayo Clinic either.

As much as any medical institution, I do,
but nobody is perfect.

The
fact is that the cause of the common cold has been known for a long
time. Unfortunately, a lot of people insist on spreading nonsense
instead.
Wayne

And those of us who know the most frequent cause
of head colds don't get them unless we neglect to maintain
the steam humidifier, or get chilled, or not get enough sleep,
or get too close to somebody who has a cold and doesn't
try to contain the germs.

I didn't say that germs are not involved, in fact,
I said germs are involved and that a steam humidifier
does a lot to prevent irritation of sensitive membranes
in the airway.

Apparently you assumed Mayo Clinic to be
more perfect than they themselves believe, as shown;

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/com...056/DSECTION=4

from your link.

I do other things besides run the humidifier,
if I get chilled or get a ticklish throat, I put salt in
my mouth in lieu of gargling salt water, I take an
extra vitamin pill, and I moisten my mouth and
breath in through my mouth and out my nose,
which puts moist air across the dry membranes
of both throat and nose.

The important thing is to try to do something
about it before it gets to the point of being a full
blown head cold.
I can only remember the last 75 winters,
of which only the last 55 apply to my suggestion,
as the places I lived before that didn't have
forced air heat.
If I run the steam humidifier to maintain
50 percent relative humidity at night, that helps
prevent not only irritated nasal membranes, but
also migration of germs from carpet and fabrics
drying out.
Fifty percent relativity is just an easy to
maintain number, possibly in a clean house
any constant relative humidity that does not
irritate the sensitive nasal or airway passages
would do as well. (Constant RH!)

JoeFischer

Constant-temperature dehumidification
 

Constant-temperature dehumidification
 

I doubt the cool air came from ducts on the roof without powered
ventilation.

"Joe Fischer" wrote in message
...
On 20 Sep 2006 05:39:06 -0400, wrote:

Joe Fischer wrote:
.......
The roof had a center section that was higher,
and windows tilted in on both side walls of that high
section. There were huge vent ducts which were
not noticeable with floor grilles.
With a large crowd, the heat generated per
person increased the natural convection out those
top windows, drawing air in the hidden floor ducts.

Cool. Where did the air come from?
Nick

From large inverted J ducts on the roof, like
those seen on ships.

Everything was so automatic, needing very
little attention, even though I was the only person
besides the cashier and projectionists there, nothing
required my intervention except opening the top
windows seasonally and tapping on the air traps
on the low pressure steam radiators to get steam
to them occasionally in heating season.

A freeway took the site in 1962.

Joe Fischer

Constant-temperature dehumidification
 

On Wed, 20 Sep 2006 20:24:53 -0400, "Solar Flare"
wrote:

I doubt the cool air came from ducts on the roof without powered
ventilation.

The power was from the heat produced by the audience,
at rest I think the numbers are somewhere around 400 BTU/hour,
maybe more.
And 800 times 400 BTU per hour =
about 320,000 BTU per hour, or 90KW?
I don't believe it!

And I think this means that the upward draft caused
by that heat is proportional to the size of the audience making
it also self controlling.

This system likely worked better in the evening
than during the day, but that was ok because the only
days the theater was open was Sat and Sun.

If I made a wrong assumption, sorry, I really never
thought much about just how little I had to do to
manage the heating and cooling system until now.

I also want to mention that the places I lived that
had gravity air furnaces seemed much more comfortable.
But they had to be in the basement, were not
very efficient, and were coal fired.

Joe Fischer